Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 2 July 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture and Food
Dog Control and Sheep-Worrying: Discussion
2:00 am
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We have received no apologies. Before we begin, I remind witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. This means a witness has a full defence in any defamation action in respect of anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed, at the Chair's discretion, to cease giving evidence on an issue. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard.
I remind witnesses of the long-standing parliamentary practice that, so far as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts do. They may consider it appropriate to take legal advice in this regard. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside the proceedings of the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online in the committee meeting where their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in a public meeting from outside the parliamentary precincts. Any attempt to do so will result in the member having his or her online access removed.
Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe go léir inniu. They are very welcome. The committee wants to focus on dog control and sheep worrying. We will hear from representatives of the Irish Natura and Hill Farmers Association, INHFA: Mr. John Joe Fitzgerald and Mr. Pheilim Molloy. Cuirim fáilte rompu. From the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association, ICMSA: Mr. Michael O'Connell and Mr. Brian Delaney. Cuirim fáilte rompu. From the Irish Farmers' Association, IFA: Mr. Adrian Gallagher and Mr. Tomás Bourke. They are welcome. Cuirim fáilte rompu. From the Irish Cattle and Sheep Farmers' Association, ICSFA: Mr. Hugh Farrell and Mr. Willie Shaw. They are welcome here today. From the National Association of Regional Games Councils, NAFGC: Mr. Dan Curley and Mr. John Butler. They are very welcome.
We will start with the INFHA, followed by the ICMSA, the IFA, the ICFSA and the NARGC. The witnesses have provided opening statements. I take it that members have had an opportunity to read through the statements. I will give the witnesses two minutes to synopsise their statements and then we will go to members to ensure we have the maximum amount of time available for questions and answers.
Mr. John Joe Fitzgerald:
Go raibh míle maith agat, a Chathaoirligh, as an seans a thabhairt dúinn teacht agus labhairt. Thank you, Chair, for giving us this opportunity. The Irish Natura and Hill Farmers Association welcomes the opportunity to highlight concerns farmers have about dog control and to outline clear solutions. This is an ongoing issue for our members, as detailed in a number of member surveys we have held over the last three years. In addition to these surveys, we have been inundated with calls from farmers about the risk to their livestock following attacks from dogs and the stress caused by dogs that are not controlled. We have seen increasing levels of concern and complaints from farmers about recreational walkers bringing their dogs onto farmlands, including our hills. When asked to remove them, the walkers become highly abusive and threatening, which in some instances has led to physical violence. As a result, the INHFA in Kerry has put together a petition and has submitted it to the European Parliament with the ambition of having this issue addressed and stamped out, both in Ireland and across Europe. A copy of this petition has been sent to the clerk of the committee and we understand all members have received it. The petition, which includes a book of evidence on dog attacks and farmer feedback, outlines a number of proposals that, if followed, will deliver much better outcomes in dog control and, by extension, reduce and, I hope, eliminate dog attacks on sheep and other livestock.
A summary of what we are advocating is as follows: a national database collating all information on dogs, including dog licence, microchipping and DNA samples from each dog; a Government-funded, time-limited subsidy for DNA sampling-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Fitzgerald. The submission has been circulated. We want to keep things moving.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I must move on to the next witness.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The statement has been circulated and members have had the opportunity to read it.
Mr. Michael O'Connell:
I thank the Chair for the opportunity to address the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture and Food. Dog control is a major issue at the moment for livestock farmers, sheep and cattle. We believe a similar initiative is required to the awareness campaign that was launched in 2024. The ICMSA believes that a number of areas should be highlighted in such a campaign. I refer to the damage done to sheep and other stock. There is an economic effect due to the cost of it. There is also a psychological effect on the farmers involved. The repercussions should be made known to dog owners as to what will happen if their dogs are found to have worried or killed sheep.
It is important that all dogs be microchipped and licensed and that this be enforced. Without microchipping, there is no traceability, which, in fairness, is a major issue.
The impact on farmers should not be underestimated. It is traumatic on any farmer to see that his or her animals have been attacked by dogs. The committee should be mindful of that as well.
The enforcement of dog controls must be rigid and swift. In recent months, we have seen in media outlets coverage of the legislation banning XL bullies. There is a way around it and the loopholes must be closed. The powers of dog wardens need to be reviewed. Will they come in under the Department of agriculture and be supervised by it? That is more or less a synopsis of what we have proposed.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas le Mr. O'Connell.
Mr. Adrian Gallagher:
I thank the committee very much for the invitation. More than any other sector, sheep farmers are affected by the irresponsible behaviour of some dog owners. As chair of the IFA sheep committee, I hear more and more stories about irresponsible incidents involving dog attacks, livestock worrying and, at times, the aggressive behaviour of dog owners. Lack of enforcement of obligations on dog owners and low levels of sanction in this area are allowing this behaviour to continue, with sheep farmers having their flocks savaged by dogs on an almost daily basis at this point.
We also do not hear often enough about the emotional and long-standing consequences dog attacks have on farmers, farm families and the remaining flock, most particularly where multiple incidents occur, which is not all that rare.
Lack of meaningful action in this area has led us to taking the step of introducing a campaign whereby we do not allow any dogs on our lands. The campaign, which is now in its fifth year, is an attempt to protect the health and welfare of our animals. This must stop.
Under the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013, owners and persons responsible for protected animals are legally obliged to prevent unnecessary suffering and to safeguard their welfare. This includes providing adequate food, water, shelter and veterinary care. Offences such as cruelty, abandonment, neglect, poisoning and illegal procedures carry severe penalties of up to €250,000 in fines and-or five years' imprisonment. Courts may also disqualify offenders from keeping animals. These types of sanction must also extend to cases where dogs have been found worrying or savaging sheep.
Mr. Willie Shaw:
I thank the committee for the opportunity to talk to it today. I agree with previous speakers. It is basically the same thing that we are all after here today, that is, stronger controls for dogs and more traceability for the dogs that are doing the harm. It is a very small percentage of dog owners who let their dogs do what they like. Unfortunately, it only takes a few percent. Thousands of sheep are killed every year in Ireland. Millions of euro worth of livestock is destroyed. An awful lot of sheep farmers are leaving the sector and we do not need yet another reason for them to leave. We appreciate that legislation is to be introduced but there must be backup financially and in terms of dog wardens and even something as simple as microchipping.
When that dog is sold again as an adult it needs to be registered with its new owner. The microchip registration cannot go back to its old owner. Small common-sense measures like these could make a huge difference.
Mr. John Butler:
Dog control and sheep worrying are issues the National Association of Regional Game Councils, NARGC, takes very seriously. We have a large cohort of dog ownership in the country, with more than 25,000 members who have an average of two to three dogs each. They are game hunting dogs and by their very nature they are highly trained to find, flush and retrieve game. As part of this training, we try to ensure, and we do ensure, the animals do not interact or interfere with domestic animals such as cattle and sheep. We have many expert trainers in our association and we take pride in how our dogs perform.
Having said this, we acknowledge and accept there is a problem and we want to be part of the solution. We are willing to help the farming community and landowners. We do so and we have done so in the past. Some of the measures we strongly support have been alluded to by other speakers. We feel strongly there should be a database of all dog ownership in Ireland. When we look at the fact that we know where every cow, calf and sheep is in Ireland, we should also know where every dog is in Ireland.
The old saying is that there are very few bad dogs out there but there are an awful lot of bad owners. We believe the responsibility for dogs being off a lead or out of action solely lies with the owner. This is where the buck should stop. It is where a database would come into its own. It, along with microchipping, would mean we know precisely who is at fault, the nature of the animal and the owner.
I ask that legislation be considered on the point that while a landowner is allowed to dispatch a dog worrying sheep, sometimes they may not have the facility to do so. They should be able to call on a local gun club member or a local licenceholder to do it on their behalf. We would like to see this acknowledged as part of the legislation and included as part and parcel of it. We are here to help and we will do so in any way we can.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all of the witnesses for giving us concise presentations. Their documents have been circulated. We want to have as much discussion as we can on this. The documents, including the photographs, were circulated earlier and anyone involved in any way with sheep farming will, unfortunately, be all too familiar with the violence and damage done by dogs on sheep. If there are ways to progress the situation let us try to get onto them as quickly as we can.
Seven members are offering to speak. I suggest that each person has four minutes and if there is an opportunity afterwards, we can have another round of questions. Our first speaker will be Deputy Martin Kenny.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Is it four minutes for questions and answers?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach and all of the witnesses for coming before the committee and for their opening statements. There is a single trend through all of this, which is traceability. It is about who owns a dog, where the dog is and how it can be traced and followed up. There are issues with neighbours' pets that escape and get out. It could be a dog that gets out and damages sheep. There are also people who go walking in the country for recreation and who jump out of the car, open the boot and let the dog out with no lead. Away they go as if it is free and open countryside. It may be free and open countryside but if there are domestic animals in the fields nearby they are in danger. They may not always be attacked and ravaged by a dog as they may be just run. If pregnant ewes are chased around a field there will be miscarriages and big losses. This may not be as evident as it is where animals are attacked. We have seen some of the graphic pictures that have been sent in and we are all conscious of this.
Today, if we can, we need to focus on what can be done. A trend running through this meeting is discussion of a national database, microchipping and licences. Do the witnesses feel, as I do, that there are not enough resources for the dog wardens? Half of them do not have wands to read the chips even if they do come across a dog, and there are not enough of them in place to ensure it is followed up on. I have come across situations where people have been contacted and it is three days later before someone comes from the local authority to speak to them about what happened. I would like to get the views of the witnesses on this and what level of additional resources they think is needed to police the somewhat inadequate legislation that exists at present. I will throw this open, perhaps to the INHFA first as they were the first to present.
Mr. Pheilim Molloy:
On the issue of dogs being let run wild, we must remember that a farm is a place of work for the farmer. Under health and safety legislation, farmers are responsible for their own safety. This is a very important point to remember. With regard to resources, they are scarce on the ground and there is no doubt that the powers the dog wardens and An Garda Síochána have is a problem. If we look at the Control of Dogs Act 1986, a garda or a dog warden is prohibited from following a dog into a residential premises. This is in the legislation. This is an area that seriously needs to be addressed. There is an issue with the number of dog wardens and the powers these officers enjoy. Unless this is addressed we will not make any progress on this problem.
Unfortunately, I can relate a situation whereby I spent two hours in the company of a farmer in west Donegal one night whose stress and anxiety were displayed because he had 30 sheep killed. The dog was chased back to a premises but because of the provision in the legislation nobody could go in. The fear was that the dog would repeat the attack on a later date. This is where a big problem exists. I have seven or eight points on the Control of Dogs Act 1986, which has great weaknesses and this is only one example. If I get an opportunity at a later stage I will cover more of them. This is something that needs to be addressed.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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If Mr. Molloy wishes he can send in the seven or eight points to the clerk to the committee and they will be considered.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Four minutes is a very short time.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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It is tight. We may have an opportunity afterwards for more questions.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Perhaps the other witnesses can speak about the issue of resources for local authorities at other points during the meeting.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Kenny for his co-operation. We are trying to cram a lot into a short time.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I am very glad to have an opportunity to speak on this highly emotive issue. I welcome each and every one of the organisations before the committee. Their members are very welcome. As a unit the committee, under our very able Cathaoirleach, promises to do our best for them. I was upset one morning when I heard people saying no one in Ireland was listening to them and that they would go to Europe. By all means they can go to Europe but we are, and have been, listening to them. We have been out in the fields where the damage has been done. We know what is involved and what happens when little lambs and sheep are torn and mangled. We know all of this. We support most of what the witnesses have said. There should be microchipping. I am worried about how the DNA sampling would work. As Mr. Molloy has said, we cannot go into houses.
Mr. John Joe Fitzgerald:
The biggest problem we see with microchipping and dog licences is that when the farmer gets to the field there is no trace of the dog.
That is the biggest problem I hear from every farmer in the country. DNA sampling is a very easy system. It is either a swab, a blood sample or a skin nick. If it is a viable sample we put it back into the database. When a kill happens after that and if the farmer gets to the field the dog is gone he can test the saliva on the tears and cuts on the dead or torn animal and go back to the database and find the dog's owner.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I must save my time because-----
Mr. Willie Shaw:
Apologies Deputy, but approximately 50% of dog attacks are not actually kills, the dogs are running the sheep. What kills the sheep is only around 10% of the problem. The problem is sheep being run, pregnant ewes especially. The DNA does not work in that case but it is a help. Everything is a help but DNA is not the silver bullet.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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All right, my understanding is that either the farmer himself or someone on his behalf can shoot a dog on his property. Is that right?
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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That is very important and this is the only way I believe we can teach these fellas a lesson. Framers should have cameras up as well. I know it costs farmers money to do this but if a farmer is lambing sheep he should have cameras up. As Dan Michael Muldoon once said, shoot at sight. We know that when these dogs taste blood at all they are never satisfied until they go back for more. It is not about chasing sheep it is about the taste of blood. We will raise what we can for the witnesses through parliamentary questions and in different ways and we appreciate their horror at what is happening. It is happening all around me, in Kilgarvan, Kenmare, Sneem and any place that a dog can meet you in the flesh, it has happened. It is a very serious issue and we are very concerned about it. We are glad the witnesses came to the committee. I know all of the members have different ideas but I believe that with the walkways and all of these things coming on stream now, sheep will be more exposed.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Theachta.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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So farmers need to assure themselves they can shoot dogs on their property and that should be maintained.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta. Bíonn scrios ar fad á dhéanamh ag gadhair in áiteanna. Bíonn an-bhaol do chaoirigh. An bhfuil céim amháin faoi leith gur féidir a thógáil chun dul i ngleic leis an bhfadhb? An bhfuil aon chéim amháin faoi leith a bheadh an-chabhrach?
Mr. John Joe Fitzgerald:
Is í an chéim amháin a mholaim ná database nó ionad sonraí a chur le chéile a thiocfadh faoi bhráid an Aire talmhaíochta agus na Roinne talmhaíochta. Ní mór ceadúnas madraí a bheith ag daoine. Ní mór ceann amháin de na cinn seo a leanas a bheith ag daoine: dog licence, microchipping nó sampla DNA. Caithfidh na cinn seo ar fad a bheith faoi bhráid an Aire talmhaíochta agus na Roinne talmhaíochta. Caithfidh duine éigin a bheith freagrach as seo nó commissioner a thabhairt isteach le gur féidir le daoine dul chuige i gcónaí. D’oibreodh sé sin go maith. Roimhe seo, bhí beirt Aire ag déileáil le cúnamh madraí le blianta fada. Bhí duine amháin ag rá rud amháin le duine amháin agus rud eile le duine eile agus é ag imeacht ar fud na háite. Ní mór é sin a bheith faoi bhráid Roinne amháin. D’oibreodh sé sin go maith.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas as sin. Leanfaidh muid ar aghaidh leis an gcéad duine eile, is é sin an Seanadóir Paul Daly.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat, Cathaoirleach. I know time is limited but that exchange reminded me of an uncle of mine who was training a sheepdog one time and it was not going well. The reason he gave for his lack of success was the dog had come from the Gaeltacht and did not understand him.
The witnesses are all very welcome and I think we are all on the one side of the fence on this one. We will have to follow this meeting up with the other side of the fence, which is the Department and the people who have the power to make changes. Today is about the committee becoming armed with the information to go to that meeting. I had a couple of people who were meant to attend today and unfortunately they could not. They have done a lot to highlight this issue and they are Eamonn and Niamh Monahan from Iniskeen, Monaghan. They will appear on "Crimecall" to get the message out to a different audience that would not usually watch this. We would all watch "Ear to the Ground" if this issue was featured on it but the whole country watches the likes of "Crimecall" and I do not think enough can be done to highlight the issue to the public because they are the dog owners. The big issue here, the problem, is dog owners. As was mentioned already it is not savagery but the number of people out there who say their dog is only a little poodle and is the loveliest dog in the world and would not do a bit of harm, he would run after a ball, a stick and a sheep. It is the worrying and chasing of ewes that are heavily in lamb. It does not have to be savagery. There is some savagery but the chase can do every bit as much damage with lambs being thrown and all of that.
There needs to be more highlighting of the issues as Eamonn and Niamh have done so that the public and not just the farming community see it. Your heart would go out to them. They have a pedigree Texel herd and do not know when they go to bed any night what they will wake up to the next morning. It is completely out of their control. There is a body of work to be done. I compliment the people who are working on this issue.
Another colleague of mine, Councillor Fionnán Fitzgerald, informed me that Kerry has done a map of reported dog attacks. Every county should do that and we as politicians should encourage all local authorities to do that because when one sees a map and list of how many attacks there are, there are a lot more than one would imagine. I am a firm believer and have been hammering the drum for a long time that the owner of any breed of dog should not be allowed to chip a dog or get a licence without doing a theory test. Anybody can have a dog and he or she might not have a clue about the consequence of having a dog. There should be a theory test before a person is allowed to own a dog and that is something I will keep pushing for.
I do not have any questions because we received the witnesses' documentation. I have a minute and a half remaining, if anyone would like to comment.
Mr. Hugh Farrell:
I thank the Senator for his questions. He remarked on the good work being done by the people in question, and rightly so. The Senator referred to the map of each county. That is a brainwave, in fairness, because if that issue was identified on a map of the counties and put out to the local media, including local papers, it would leave everyone who owns a dog wondering and worrying if their dog was part of it or could be part of it. This could send a bigger message than we think it could, bigger than us just discussing it here today. I would like to see that followed through as a national study of reports that come in and are formed in that way and the maps are distributed throughout the counties. I thank the Senator for his input.
Mr. Tomás Bourke:
I will comment on a number of the points made by members. They question has been asked, what can the committee do? The key to all of this is we do not need to reinvent the wheel to a large extent. Five years ago we commenced a no dogs allowed campaign. To be brutally honest, the only way we can ensure the safety and well-being of our animals on the hills is if dogs are prohibited from being taken on to hills. It does not matter, Deputy Kenny, how many dog wardens we have, we cannot police that. That is why the IFA's position is that all hills should be a no-go area for dogs because hills are frequented by livestock and it cannot be guaranteed those dogs will be retained under effective control when their owners go up hills. That is something simple and straightforward that can be done immediately.
The centralised database has to be the bedrock this is built on but we do not need a lot of new legislation. We have an Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013 and in that Act, Part 3, section 12 that deals with animal welfare clearly sets out what the criteria and sanctions are if someone is found to impact on the health and welfare of a protected species. Dogs and sheep are protected animals. We have a situation where if a farmer is found to be non-compliant with that, he or she is prohibited from owning animals in the future. We need an amendment to this Act to recognise that the dog owner is no longer allowed to own a dog if he or she has been found to be non-compliant with responsibilities and that recognises the trauma and severity of the welfare and psychological impact on the farmer their dog has caused. We do not need to reinvent the wheel but to amend what we already have.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Bourke but we need to move on. Senator Brady is next.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I thank all the associations here. Last weekend, I made a request for them to attend, especially the NARGC. To make it known, I am a member of the NARGC and keep hunting dogs at home. Everybody is responsible for their own dog, just to make that clear. Every dog is a pet until the pets get together and then become killing machines. Unfortunately, I keep sheep as well. I have some questions that someone can maybe answer. Physical violence to any landowner is unacceptable. Most people condemn it at all costs.
Have we any figures on the cost to farmers of sheep-worrying and the loss of sheep last year?
On dog wardens, how many prosecutions have there been over the last 12 months by local authorities? Have we figures on that?
Anybody who is eligible to carry a firearm is licensed to protect his or her own property or livestock but I do not know whether the legislation allows a farmer to bring someone who has a licence onto his or her land, if there has been sheep-worrying, to shoot a dog. I am not sure whether the legislation is strong enough. Maybe the witnesses would like to comment on that.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to give the witnesses a chance to answer a few of the questions.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Yes. Whoever wants to take them.
Mr. Dan Curley:
I will take the one about firearms. It is our understanding that it is only the owner who could do it. The owner could not invite a gun club member to do it. The law only says the owner. That may be something this committee could look at and possibly change. It would allow the farmer to get a gun club member down the road who may have a far more powerful rifle. The member may shoot deer or foxes and would have the necessary equipment to do it far better. The average farmer might only have a shotgun, with which someone would have to get within 30 or 40 yards of a dog to dispatch it. It would only be a small amendment but it could be an important one.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Yes. What would Mr. Curley say in regard to the other questions?
Mr. Pheilim Molloy:
On the amount of compensation that would be paid, I will mention the 1986 Act, and section 21(1), which is around the burden of proof that is placed on the farmer with regard to damage done to his or her stock. There is a burden of proof there. That is another area of the legislation that needs to be looked at. If a farmer decides to bring a court case, there is a huge burden of proof placed on that farmer. In a lot of cases, there would be a reluctance on the part of the farmer because of costs and so on that would be logged against him or her.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Has anybody a costing of what it cost farmers last year in general, and how many prosecutions were there?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Before we finish up, an area no one has touched on yet is that of the illegal hunting of hares and rabbits, or coursing, from a certain cohort of people who go in on land-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We will stick with the sheep, Senator.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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The illegal coursing is the problem because people are going onto lands where there are sheep and worrying them.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Our business here is to deal with sheep-worrying.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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It is sheep-worrying.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Let us stick with it. We need to move on.
Mr. Hugh Farrell:
I want to come back in on the cost. There may be figures there for it but the real figure is unknown, with the amount of animals that have been damaged, left with stillbirths or whatever else comes along with it. It would be multiples of it. I do not know how we would get a real figure on it because it would not be reported to the level we would love it to be.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We have five more speakers offering, so there should be opportunity for people to get another go at it in a little while. Deputy Lawless is next.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I welcome all the farm organisations and thank them for attending. This matter is one of the key priorities for me with respect to the work programme. That is because I recently attended, with some of the witnesses, a public meeting in Roundfort in south Mayo. Following the meeting, I walked the fields belonging to some farmers who had been terrorised by what was happening. This is happening in south and north Mayo. It is important that this committee recognise that, in pockets of the country, a huge part of this problem is down to illegal hare coursing, where groups of people are travelling-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy,-----
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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No, a Chathaoirligh, we cannot talk about-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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-----it is important that we focus on the business of the meeting with regard to sheep.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I want to be very clear. It is absolutely relevant to talk about one of the key issues in my constituency that is-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, the business of the meeting relates to sheep-worrying. There are so many other things we would love to talk about but the business of the meeting regards sheep-worrying.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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My point is that there is an issue around illegal hare coursing in the country. It has a knock-on effect where groups of people are coming onto farmers' lands and letting their dogs off. This is a huge issue in south and north Mayo and I want to register it here in the committee. We need to do a significant amount of work on this and if we cannot talk about some of the key issues on it-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Our focus today - and we can take the other issue on another day - is on sheep. We can follow up with the other issues another day if the meeting-----
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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The focus of the committee is on sheep and the perpetrators, which are dogs.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, the business of today's meeting is sheep-worrying. If there are other issues the committee needs to look at, it can choose to do that another day but today, our business regards sheep.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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It is very relevant. I want to move on because my time is going.
I want to work with the farm organisations on this. There are major issues around the legislation from 1986. It is very weak, as was alluded to. It is resulting in a lack of prosecutions. That is the reality. The other factor is not only do we have very weak and loose legislation that is vague and one of the reasons there is such a lack of prosecutions, particularly around the sheep-worrying offence, but we also have a lack of enforcement. In Mayo, for example, there are just three dog wardens to cover the entire county. When we have breakouts of hare coursing in north and south Mayo, it is a major challenge.
The other point I want this committee to focus on is providing An Garda Síochána with the equipment to manage this problem. It is shocking that the Garda in Mayo does not have the ability to scan with respect to microchipping. I understand that scanners were sent by the Department to the Garda across the country some years ago and some gardaí in stations were unfortunately unable to use them because that was not sanctioned by the justice Minister and senior management within An Garda Síochána.
Addressing these major issues will have a big, positive impact. The reality is that there are people losing pedigree flocks overnight as a result of this issue and we need to address it.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Can anyone comment in the brief time that is there?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I need to move on. Senator Lynch is next.
Eileen Lynch (Fine Gael)
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I thank all the organisations for their briefings. It has been very informative. I did not realise the number of non-microchipped pet dogs there was in the country. With regard to my background, I keep greyhounds. It is an incredibly regulated sport. We have to microchip our dogs if we want to register them and if we want them to compete. It is incredibly lax that the same does not apply to pet owners. We sometimes have a case here where we are putting pets ahead of agricultural animals. I do no think that is good enough because, as has been said by Senator Daly, people should have some kind of training or test in order to have a dog. I have dogs. Do I know what they are up to every night? Absolutely not.
Something that I do not think has been raised by any of the groups today is the issue of dog insurance. We have insurance for our dogs for any damage they carry out. I appreciate there is a burden of proof in terms of proving whose dog is inflicting the damage. Do the witnesses think insurance for dog damage is an area we need to be focusing on? Hunting paths and greyhound owners have it. It is not a thing that is, to me, as prominent with actual pet owners and I think that is an issue we need to focus on.
My second point - I know it has been raised by the previous two speakers, and I am not trying to take away from the meeting - is that looking at the books of evidence and the photos from the INHFA, I find it hard to believe that all those attacks are carried out by pet dogs. I know, at the end of the day, a dog is a dog and a dog can turn. Do the witnesses think there is a higher proportion of these attacks coming from illegal hunting groups? I am not specifying what kind.
Hunting groups and coursing groups are going through land with the landowner's permission. Without the landowner's permission, those sports cannot continue. Is it the case that groups of people illegally going through lands are causing a higher proportion of the damage? I appreciate a dog can turn on a person in a second. I am well aware of that and have experience of it. Whether it is a poodle or a bulldog, anything is possible. As I said, I find it hard to believe that more of these attacks are by pet as opposed to illegally held or illegally owned dogs.
Mr. Hugh Farrell:
The Senator hit a good point. As far as insurance goes, I feel our dogs would be covered as a hazard under public liability. The point on the other end is access to hunting. Maybe we should look at that. There needs to be consent for people to come in to hunt on the land or to be on the farm, whether it is walking or hunting. Maybe that needs to be looked at to could control a lot of what we are discussing today. It is something I would like to see brought forward.
Mr. John Joe Fitzgerald:
It is not all coming from pet dogs. Let us be exact about that. It is happening in all of society and among all types of dogs. To give the Senator a good example of it, Deputy Danny Healy-Rae lives down in the Sneem area. I visited a farmer there two years ago. More than 100 of his ewes and lambs were driven off the cliff by marauding dogs that were let loose from holiday homes. When people come out of towns and cities and go to these places, they think it is like the Wild West or an old cowboy film. I have spoken to another man in Galway who had the same thing happen to him on 8 December. He called me at 10 p.m. and told me his sheep had been driven off the cliff. They are in the book of evidence. I advise every member to look at the graphic photos in the book of evidence. If they think those are bad, I will supply them with even worse ones.
At the end of the day, there is no accountability. Nobody is taking responsibility. The reason we had to go to Europe with this petition is that nobody is listening. I have heard at this meeting that everyone is listening, but I have been told by one good politician in Kerry that nobody is listening because there are no votes in it for us. It is as simple as that.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I know there are-----
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I have to stand up for myself. I am listening to Mr. Fitzgerald anyway, and I have always been doing my best about it. He can name the rest of them, but he cannot name me anyway.
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Likewise.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am listening. It is not about votes. I was a farmer before I was a politician. I am listening and I will be.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Based on the intensity with which members have raised this issue in recent meetings, I can say they are fairly keen on and interested in it. I support members in that.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Solutions are what we want. I propose that the committee does a report on this problem to give to the Department of agriculture.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I second that proposal.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Will the members and witnesses tell me if they do not disagree with something? We need to take note of what we will do and include it in a report. Does anyone object to the recommendation for dog DNA collection to be included in the report? Agreed. Is it agreed that we recommend all dogs in Ireland be microchipped? Agreed. Is it agreed that if a dog goes wild, as Mr. Bourke said earlier, that a person will not own a dog again? Agreed.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Hold on.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Just one second. We know that not everyone who goes around stealing will be caught by gardaí. The same goes for dog wardens. There will not be a dog warden up every road in Ireland. What we need is a DNA test and all the tools to identify something and have the databases for it. That is the best we can do. We will not have a dog warden in Mr. Molloy's place, my place and every other place flying around to get this sorted.
A good point was brought up earlier. Is it agreed that, in the event that a farmer does not have a gun licence, with the consent of the farmer or the landowner, a person who owns a gun licence would be allowed to use it? Is it agreed to include this in the report? Agreed.
If a person trespasses - a person or dog - a farmer has the right to shoot the dog. Is it agreed to include that? Agreed.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Provided the farmer has a licence. These are things we need to put into a report if we are going to try to change things. All databases and equipment should be a joined-up measure between the Department of justice and the Department of agriculture and the whole lot should be together in the event of dogs doing harm. Is there anything else that should be included in that?
Mr. Tomás Bourke:
I thank Deputy Fitzmaurice. He has, to a large extent, identified some of the key issues. The key area in enforcement is that the deterrent has to be awareness of the significance of the sanctions. I welcome the Deputy's proposal with regard to preventing any future ownership of a person found to not be meeting their legal obligation to maintain their dog under their effective control. We must also look at extending the sanctions for what damage they cause on farms with regard to potential custodial sentences and significant fines. We can achieve that.
The issues of enforcement and clarity about the roles of An Garda Síochána, authorised officers or dog wardens have come up. The Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013 clearly defines roles and responsibilities. We need to include in the report the recommendation that the worrying of livestock and savaging of sheep be included in this Act and the sanctions within the legislation should apply. That gives the correct authorities to An Garda Síochána-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Will Mr. Bourke send his submission to us?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Will Mr. Fitzgerald be quick?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We will give Mr. Curley a chance to speak.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I ask Mr. Fitzgerald to send in his submission. Mr. Bourke may make whatever other points he wishes to make.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I ask members and witnesses to bear with me. If witnesses want to answer questions and there is not enough time, they should write down the answers and send them to the secretariat. They will be sent to members-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Did the Cathaoirleach take note that Senator Daly seconded a proposal that we do on a report on this?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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That is agreed. Do members have any views on doing a report?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I fully support Deputy Fitzmaurice's suggestion to do a report.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We will take the opportunity to follow up on that. Two standing members are offering and a non-member has written in and asked to contribute. She has asked to go. At the discretion of the committee, I call Deputy McGreehan.
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach and Deputy Aird for his indulgence and for allowing me to speak. I do not have any questions. This is something I am very passionate about.
I brought forward a Bill in the previous Seanad that encompasses an awful lot of the stuff the witnesses want and need. It beggars belief, day in and day out, to hear of the ignorance of people who traipse around with their dogs in the countryside like they have a free pass and allow their dogs to roam and attack sheep, whether by mouth or by running. The bad manners of people in society are appalling. The support here is absolutely necessary. I hope this committee can bring the Department's officials before it because they know what the issues are. They have been told what they are. Many Members in this room, including me, have raised the issues and what needs to be done over and over. This is a serious issue. Thousands of euro have been lost. The mental health of farmers and their families has been affected.
People cannot go to bed at night without worrying about their sheep and livestock. It is about time the Minister, the Department and the officials started listening to farmers, the committees and the farming organisations and acted on it.
Mr. Tomás Bourke:
There is one point I wish to add to Deputy Fitzmaurice’s proposals. It is timely and can happen immediately. We need to announce a ban on all dogs on all hills and commonage grounds because it cannot be policed. We are now at the height of the period when people and walkers walk through our lands and bring dogs with them. We have our campaign. Farmers are having their signs torn down and are being abused. The violence has been referenced already. We need to ban dogs from hills because those are where livestock are kept. It cannot be policed.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I have one other question and I know-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There will be another opportunity. Bear with me.
Mr. Hugh Farrell:
One thing that must be remembered, and which seems to have been missed all the way, is that this is private property. Everyone else is treating it as their property. We have to change that. This is where consent to enter and different things need to be looked at. That ties into what Mr. Bourke said because it is on all land.
Mr. John Joe Fitzgerald:
Education and awareness in schools are another issue. Niamh Monahan and AgriKids have been mentioned. They are doing great work to educate the youth, from primary school level up to secondary school level. If that happens and is encouraged by the Government, hopefully those small kids will grow up to be responsible dog owners in years to come. That will help everyone.
Mr. John Butler:
I wish to make an observation. When we speak about going onto land, we need to be aware that there are two types of people, namely, those people who go onto land with permission and then those who trespass. It is those who trespass that we need to highlight. Hunting has been mentioned once or twice today as part of the problem. I am not saying that was intentional. It is illegal hunting that is part of the problem. Hunting, by its very nature, is done with the permission of the landowner. Hunters gain access to the land with the permission of landowners.
The other thing mentioned was insurance.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Mr. Butler to be brief because I need to move on to Deputy Aird.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the witnesses who have come in. I am delighted to be here. One good thing that has happened, on which I have campaigned for more than 40 years as a member of Laois County Council, is that the control of dogs be handed over to the Department of agriculture. That has happened now for the first time, although it should have always been the case. It should have been the case for horses too, but I will leave that matter aside. We have teeth now. We can bring in the Minister for agriculture, Deputy Heydon. We can get on to the Department of agriculture to establish new rules for all dog owners and get a path forward.
I maintain that no dog should be around without being microchipped. Every person has a responsibility in that regard. The Department of agriculture will have a dedicated budget, whereas the local authorities were operating on a shoestring. From that point of view, dog wardens will have all the equipment to just stop a person and seize a dog. All the wardens must do is run the yoke along the dog and if it does not give a whistle, that means there is no tag and the dog must be taken away. People will know that quickly.
On dog worrying, my view is that no dog should be let off a lead. That has to be provided for in legislation. We can do that in this country. We do not have to go to Europe; we can have our own set of rules. No one is allowed should be let a dog off a lead. There is a difference where farmers give permission for gun clubs to go in to shoot. You will see that up at farms throughout the country. That is a completely different thing. Those people have permission. There are other places where no one is allowed. You will see that in places as well. No matter what happens, no dog should be allowed off a lead. It does not matter whether someone is coming down from Dublin for a week out or coming from wherever, no dog should be allowed off a lead. If we had that in legislation, at least we would be moving forward in some way.
While I agree with everything Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice said, there is one thing I wish to say. I live right in the middle of a town. I certainly would not encourage anyone to go out to confront three or four people in their field this evening with four or five dogs to tell them to get out or to pull out a gun and shoot them. Who would come out the worst of that? It would be the farmer. We saw what happened in Dublin when that poor man went over and asked the people to keep their dogs on a leash and to go out to the ditch because he had sheep next door. Look what happened to him. We have a lot of work to do to ensure people respect the person who confronts them as the owner of the land. I am serious in that regard. I am telling the committee here and now that I would not encourage any farmer to confront these people. There is a difference in the people out there. That was alluded to today. There is the person who lets their dog off and the dog gets away from them and runs at the sheep. A dog will run at anything that moves, from the smallest to the biggest dog.
We have an awful lot of work to do. We have it now in the right place in the Department of agriculture. Deputy Fitzmaurice is here a lot longer here than I am. I promise that real changes will now be seen because we are in a position to do so. We have this matter under one umbrella, namely, the Department of agriculture. We were all members of a local authority at some stage. The local authorities all had different rules and regulations. Now, however, we will have one guiding path forward for dealing with this. We have a lot of work to do before people will be able to go out to ensure no one is on their land with dogs. That is all I can say.
This matter is so urgent that we should be addressing it with the same urgency as we address TB. I honestly believe that. Farmers have left the industry because of dogs, which is natural enough. What farmer tonight could go to bed with 100 sheep lambing out in the field without the worry of it? You could do not do it because there are too many dogs running wild. We politicians are always on the roads late at night coming and going from meetings. How many times do we pass two dogs going at it on a rural road? Every time I go to rural meetings at night, I will not come home without passing and seeing a dog.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Molloy can make one point.
Mr. Pheilim Molloy:
Pet owners and pet dogs were mentioned earlier. A huge number of different types of dogs are kept as pets. As the Deputy said, if you go into a field in which there is an Alsatian, you are not going to stay in it too long because the danger is that you will be attacked. That is an issue that needs to be looked at. Dogs are allowed to run wild. While there is a lot of talk about dogs on hills, many of the attacks originate from these so-called pet dogs.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the witnesses for coming in and highlighting their concerns. In fairness, they have highlighted a lot of concerns of which we are well aware. We have witnessed what has gone on in the past. Dogs are the responsibility of the owners. I agree with the Deputies sitting beside me that laws need to be put in place in order that owners are held responsible if their dogs are out of control. A law needs to be in place to take them to court, fine them and name and shame them. If we do not do that, we will not solve this problem.
I have a couple of questions for the witnesses. When it comes to locations, I presume there are different parts of the country worse affected than other parts. Am I correct? Can someone answer that?
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I see the ratio of dog wardens to dogs is 1:10,000. That makes it impossible. There should be more dog wardens put into those areas for a start. We all know this will not happen overnight. Legislation will not come in overnight but that is one thing that should be looked at.
Mr. John Joe Fitzgerald:
Tourist hotspots on the west coast are a concern. We have a serious issue anywhere where there is tourism, walks and trails. This is an issue in my area of west Kerry and Mount Brandon.
On the August bank holiday weekend last year, there were four dogs per hour going up the side of the mountain. The signs were at the bottom of the mountain, but no one was looking or listening. Even when they were told to turn around and go back down, they were highly abusive. That is why I am asking for roaming patrols by An Garda Síochána, NPWS rangers and some dog wardens. They do not have to be in the same place all the time. They can be roaming around. That would cure a lot for us.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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It is important to look at the different locations. We are all well aware of the areas in the country where sheep farming is going on. The sheep need to be protected first. I go back to the responsibility of the dog owners. We have to give credit. There are some fantastic dog owners and we cannot forget that. Is there enforcement as regards dog owners? Can they be taken to court? Can court cases go ahead? Is it up to the IFA or the farmer? Who is responsible?
Mr. John Joe Fitzgerald:
I will give one example. I spoke to a retired dog warden last week who told me that he had lost a lot of the cases he brought to court because the judge felt pity for the dogs. That is just one person. Every part of society needs to be included in this. They all need to stand up and say they have had enough of this. That is from the bottom up, from dog owners on the street to people in courts dealing with the cases that come before them.
Mr. Hugh Farrell:
Identifying the owner is the biggest problem. I walked two or three fields back to the house from where a dog had attacked my sheep. I was lucky that there were men working on a roof who identified where I walked from. The dog owner said the dogs had only just been let out, that they had just been given meat and that was why there was blood around their mouths. I had witnesses, but in a lot of cases farmers do not have a witness or backup. That is the big problem. It is one person's word against another's until we can really identify the dogs. This is why we are talking about having DNA and other means of identifying them. This is where we are at a loss.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The most important thing is having more resources-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We will have another opportunity.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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-----in the affected areas. It is vital going forward
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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I thank all the witnesses for attending. It is great to see so many organisations agreeing on one important point. To go back to the controlling powers, it is not possible to have 100,000 dog wardens, but prevention is definitely better than cure. Do the witnesses agree that we need to increase the number of dog wardens? Looking at them county by county, apart from in Dublin and Cork, the maximum number of wardens in a county is three. County Limerick-----
Mr. Willie Shaw:
We definitely need to increase the number of dog wardens, but it is also about education. Many people with dogs go onto private and public lands and just let the dogs off their leads. They do not know. Many people do not even think of sheep. It is the last thing on their minds. They are on their holidays and they just go.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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They are giving their dogs a good run of the land.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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It always comes back to the owner of the animal, as the animal does not know any better.
Mr. Tomás Bourke:
Senator Collins is correct - the point was also made earlier - that there will never be enough dog wardens to police all the dogs. This is why, in the first instance, the level of sanction for non-compliance must be the deterrent so that people are acutely aware of the impact or repercussions if they are non-compliant.
There are other opportunities. It is compulsory for vets to use the national veterinary prescription system, NVPS, when prescribing products for farm animals. It will cover virtually all products and treatments animals get in the next few months - it currently covers antibiotics - but pets are outside its remit. A lot of dog owners are prepared to invest a significant amount of money in the health and welfare of their animals, yet the vets prescribing for those animals are not compelled to use the NVPS. We need a situation wherein if dogs are presented to a veterinary practitioner, their treatment must be recorded on the NVPS. This would require that the dogs be microchipped, which would require them to be on the database and the responsible person to be identified. That does not necessitate an additional layer of bureaucracy at all.
If I want to become a farmer, I have to fill out a 14-page document and submit it to the Department of agriculture. I will be assessed for suitability to own the farm animals. However, anyone can go and fill his or her car boot with dogs, open the boot and let them out to run amok between the animals whose health and welfare I am legally responsible for. It is not credible that we have to jump through so many hoops as farmers to be given permission to own these animals, yet anyone can decide to drive out into the countryside and open up a boot of animals for which they have not been assessed as being suitable owners. They are not meeting the legal obligations they have in the first place and are creating havoc. There has to be an assessment of suitability to own a dog in the first instance. It would not be easy to police, but if sanction was levelled for being found with a dog without the licence that had to be given to own the dog in the first place, it may help with the level of compliance.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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I have never been asked at the veterinary practice whether my dog is microchipped or whether I have a licence. It is not something people are asked, so it would be a good to-----
Mr. Tomás Bourke:
As farmers, when veterinary practitioners are servicing our farms, they have been legally required since the start of this year to prescribe all antibiotics on the NVPS. From later in the year, virtually every medicine that will used on a farm animal will be on the NVPS. We know the volume of work and interaction veterinary practitioners have with pets, yet those animals are sailing under the radar. The point we are making is that there are ample opportunities within existing legislation, now that we are under the remit of the Department of agriculture, to tighten up these controls.
Mr. Pheilim Molloy:
May I come in with one point on that? There is also an issue with dogs being brought across the Border. We have a problem in County Donegal, where people come from Northern Ireland with their dogs and let them roam wild. How will that aspect of the problem be dealt with? It is a critical issue that needs to be looked at.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We have the COMs to deal with after 5 p.m. so we have a few minutes left. Do members want to take two minutes each?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Bear with me for a moment. I want to give members the maximum amount of time. We have done the rounds with members.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I apologise. I wanted to come in but I was delayed at other meetings. There are a lot on a Wednesday.
My son is a hill sheep farmer. The committee is discussing dogs and it is a huge issue. We have been fortunate in our area of the Knockmealdown Mountains, but neighbouring farmers have been annihilated. When the sheep are chased and attacked by any dog, but especially bigger dogs, they are all worried and harried and they do not thrive. It is the height of cruelty. It is hard to prove which dog it is even where the dogs are identified. Some people have shot dogs and got in trouble over that. It is an issue that needs to be dealt with because it is pretty widespread. The problem is that people in ordinary houses - I am not naming anyone - are ordinary people, but they have big, dangerous dogs. If one reports it to An Garda Síochána, the response is that the Garda cannot really deal with it. There is only one dog warden in south Tipperary. It is impossible and is a quite serious situation. It is unfair. The animal cruelty is horrific, but it is unfair on families as well because farmers, especially sheep and cattle farmers, tend to their animals and engage in animal husbandry, and they do not want this happening.
I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I am sorry I did not hear them. Perhaps I can get it after the meeting. The issue needs to be dealt with.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I will follow the same rota we had earlier.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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It has been an interesting discussion. Everyone is singing off the same hymn sheet. We know where the problems are and what some of the potential solutions are. One of the big solutions is that owners need to be more responsible.
On trusting education to make owners more responsible, I remember an ad on television years ago where a dog went out worrying sheep. We do not see those ads any more. That is just one thing. Some responsibility needs to be put on dog owners so that, before they can own a dog, they have to have a fair knowledge of the responsibility attached to it and know that, if they drop the ball, there are consequences for them as the owners.
That is ultimately what needs to happen.
I asked whether there are enough dog wardens. We clearly need more of them. We need to improve legislation. We need to do a whole range of things. Right now we need to follow up with the Department and the local authorities. We need to talk to them to ensure we can get progress on all of this. That is really all I need to say.
Mr. Hugh Farrell:
I would like to follow up on an issue. We need one point of registration for all dogs, in the same way as with animals and everything else. Then they can be traced and monitored. That information has to be fed back to the local dog wardens. That is the only way they can be sure that what they are monitoring is in the right place. They can scan a dog and the scanner will be beep if it has a tag. However, if it is registered to somebody five counties away, that is where the problem lies. We need a proper registration system in place so that they are moved on. As was said earlier in the week, it would be the same as registering a car or an animal. That goes to the new owner. This is not happening now. We find a lot of problems with families or farmers who get a dog that is registered to somebody unknown to them and not living in the vicinity.
Mr. Adrian Gallagher:
Some counties do not even have a full-time dog warden, but only a part-time dog warden in the county. In a big county, there may be only one part-time warden. There was €2 million allocated by the previous Government to spend on recruiting additional dog wardens. That has not been done. It is time that money was spent. It is time there were new staff on the ground. It takes a while to get that person trained up to be capable and confident enough to go out as a full-time dog warden.
Mr. Brian Delaney:
Everyone is on the same wavelength when it comes to dog wardens. The powers of the dog warden need to be reviewed and dog owners' responsibilities as well. We spoke about the responsibilities but in cases of attacks or worrying, the repercussions need to be looked into. Fines and potential prosecutions need to be followed up on. If an example is not made of someone, things are not going to change.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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We know dog wardens are employed by local authorities. We need to have one authority, either the Department of agriculture or the local authorities, to be responsible for the farmers and ensure they are doing their job. It cannot be the case that the Department of agriculture is over it but the dog wardens are not responsible to the Department. That is an anomaly that must be straightened out by us. It is absolutely ridiculous to hear Deputy Willie Aird saying that we cannot challenge people on our own land. That tells us where the problem is at. That is the truth and it should not be the case. If we are responsible for our own farms and property, there should be no one else able to surmount that or take no notice of us. Farmers must get assistance and the only one that can deal with situations like this is An Garda Síochána. A lot of work needs to be done, as Deputy Aird said. We need to get our act together and ensure it will be just the one authority in charge of the dog wardens because they have a role to play when someone reports that their sheep or other animals are being worried. I have seen dogs going after cows, calves and horses. They can do so much damage to those valuable animals. All sheep are valuable to the farmers who have them. Other animals can be far more expensive. If a farmer confronts someone, he should be safe in doing so and in taking the number of their car or whatever and it should have to be followed up by the Garda. I can see no other way of doing it.
Mr. John Joe Fitzgerald:
The Deputy raised a good point there. I have seen it and I have been speaking to farmers from Donegal down to west Kerry. The older generation of farmers have given up going into the hills on bank holidays and weekends because of the serious issue of run-ins with people. They have been abused and shouted at. Those people stayed here in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s when the rest of us emigrated and they are now treated like dirt at this time of life. They are afraid to go and check their animals on bank holidays and at weekends. That is totally outrageous in this day and age.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I agree that is unacceptable in this day and age. Let us be quite clear on this. I hunt on horseback and I shoot. We are registered and licensed. We have dogs that are under control. They are doing what they are meant to do. They are not the problem here. Let us be quite clear on that. The National Association of Regional Game Councils, NARGC, sees that members' dogs are licensed. They go where they are meant to go and do what they are meant to do. They are not the problem. I would not like them labelled as having anything to do with this.
Before we go any further, as was said already, the problem is in black spot areas where the dogs are being let off. The farmers have co-operated to put these walkways and cycleways through their land. Permission has been given. I have been involved in many of them. Our walkways are always fenced off with sheep wire and should have been all fenced off with sheep wire. Any dog that is on a walkway that has not got permission to be there should be on a leash. If it is not on a leash, it should not be out on a walkway on any hill, any day. Legislation needs to be firmly tightened up on this. Going forward, this committee, with the witnesses' suggestions and feedback, will put policy together. We will firm this up and hopefully it will alleviate some of the problem. I would like to be associated with the view that the problem concerns not all owners of dogs. I am a pet owner. I control my dogs. I am in a hunters' association and go horseback riding. We do not cause problems. If a problem arises, and you often have a problem, let us be quite clear that we are insured for any problem that is caused out there. If a dog runs out in front of a car and a car is damaged, we are insured by the NARGC or by the hunters' association. We are legalised for doing what we do.
Mr. John Joe Fitzgerald:
I want to make the point that I have no problem with hunts or these people coming onto our lands. They have been there forever, are well behaved and do their best. However, the problem is with the recreational user, the walkers who are coming onto our land. That is why we need to see legislation brought in that bans the recreational user from bringing dogs onto our farmland. There needs to be a strong statement put out from this House to say those words, that this cannot happen any longer.
Mr. Tomás Bourke:
Senator Brady is talking about the responsible people with permission or indeed the people who are keeping their dogs under effective control at all times. Unfortunately, and this is the reason we had no choice five years ago but to commence our campaign of no dogs allowed, the behaviour of a small minority is going to impact on the access that the responsible people are going to have to our farmland. We cannot continue to have dogs allowed on hills.
Deputy Kenny referenced an accidental breakout from the dog of somebody doing everything right. These things happen and can be addressed. However, the majority of attacks on our sheep and our livestock fall under one of two headings of owners, either arrogants or ignorants. The arrogants are the people who, for the various examples given, maybe illegal activities, assume entitlement and assume right. Then we have the ignorants, people who just do not appreciate. I would give some hop of the ball to the ignorant aspect of it. However, the arrogant aspect of it is in no way acceptable. A member of ours was physically abused on his own farmland not many miles from here, only a couple years ago. He was one of the first people to give access to his lands for recreational users.
When he merely asked for the person to keep his dog off his land, he was physically abused on his own farmland. We have to get to a situation where there can be no more confusion around that.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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This is really important because if we do not address it, we are going to see great difficulty in the future for greenways and walkways. Farmers will not engage with councils. Greenways have been a massive lifeline for rural Ireland. It is critically important for the tourism sector that we address this issue. I agree with all the points made and the report we have committed to doing. However, in regard to enforcement, it is an oversight that some counties have no dog wardens, while other counties may have part-time dog wardens. In cases where dog wardens are on holidays or sick, there are gangs who realise what is happening and are able to roam the country. The report should investigate the ability of members of An Garda Síochána to carry out their function regarding this as well. For example, every squad car in the country should have the ability to scan a dog. Currently that is not the case. That is something we should look at seriously.
On sanctions, while we are going to catch everyone, we should make an example out of a number of perpetrators. Currently, the fixed penalty notice is €300. That is not good enough. The committee should recommend an increase in the penalty to the Minister.
Mr. Bourke made a key point on accessibility and suitability. We should examine that, particularly in examples where we know there is a suspected offender or, for example, where there are cases - going back to the topic of gangs - where the dogs are possessed and are microchipped. Those gangs are moving the dogs on because they are now traceable. That is what is happening. We know that where dogs are microchipped, owners are more vigilant. Mr. Bourke raised an important point on suitability and I will be recommending to the Minister that a suitability plan be developed, particularly for offenders or people known to the warden.
Mr. Tomás Bourke:
I welcome the Deputy's comments. This is where there is potential because the Department of agriculture is taking over control of this area. Within the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013, effectively every power, clarity, sanction and qualification required is available if we attribute it to dogs in the same way as we do to livestock. If the same obligations, criteria and sanctions were applied to dog owners as they are to animal owners, we would have a lot more responsible ownership. There is the huge potential, without reinventing the wheel, to incorporate dog ownership and responsibilities of dog owners in the requirements of the Animal Health and Welfare Act.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I have one issue that I wish to be clear on. There is some agreement with farm organisations that people can walk hills. Is that correct?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Are there some walking trails for which agreements have been done already?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There is permissive access around the country.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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We want to watch that we do not cut off our nose to spite our face. Are there any dogs on the lands that have to be on a lead? Mr. Bourke said no dogs should be on a mountain.
Mr. Tomás Bourke:
The Deputy has hit the nail on the head. It is the inconsistency of approach. This is what is leading to some of the interaction between landowners and walkers. People go to one hill and the dog is allowed, but on another walkway the dog has to be on a leash and on another one there are no dogs allowed.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Just to be clear, is Mr. Bourke saying all dogs should be on leads?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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No dogs on mountains. Do all the farmer organisations agree with that?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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It is just so we know.
Mr. Willie Shaw:
I apologise; I do not agree with that. There are a lot of people using the hills for recreation. We are not going to able to stop the general public from going up to these places. It is about leads and controlling their dogs. That is the message here today. If a person is responsible for their dog and have the landowner’s permission, whether it is from a friend, neighbour or whoever it is, then use the hill, but use it responsibly if the person has the permission of the owner.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I am not going to take up any more time because I want to let other members speak. There are all the points put down that the witnesses have agreed on and after that we will talk as a committee. We are not going to be making the law. There is no point codding the witnesses. We can put report together as a committee and give it to the Department. The Cathaoirleach will hand in the report to the Minister. That is how it works. We are not going to tell the witnesses that we will guarantee everything they have brought up today. With the help of our Chair and secretariat, we will bring in the Minister and his officials on this. All of the ideas raised are common sense; they are not over the top. The interesting point we should include is the one on the Animal Health and Welfare Act.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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We are talking about a very small cohort of people. The majority of people look after their dogs well. There are an awful lot of dogs. None of us knows what happens, but some say we come back as animals. I often say to myself if I came back, there are certain people that I would love to be minded by as a dog. There is care and attention taken, but it is a problem when it is not done. We are in limbo at the moment because responsibility for this area has only been handed over to the Department of agriculture. Other members and the witnesses may know about this, but I do not know if the dog wardens, dog pounds and all of that are going to be shifted over to the Department of agriculture. We are going to have a huge problem if that happens because we will have officials from Department of agriculture liaising with the dog warden who is under the offices of Laois County Council. Who will run the pound? We may have a lot of work to do yet to convince the Minister. There is one way this is going to work, and that is to have it all under one umbrella. We will then have huge success.
We can ask the witnesses to come back to the committee again when we have more work done on this. Things are going wrong in two ways at the moment. The first is when a person lets their dog off the lead and the dog sees sheep or cattle and takes off. You would want to have a very good dog. There are people here today with hunting dogs that are well trained. My father had these dogs. If you call a dog that has travelled in the car and has run off, there is not a hope in hell that it will come back to you. That is me being straight. That is what I have seen anyway.
The second issue is that many of the sheep attacks are taking place at night, after dark. I am a farmer. From that point of the view, farmers get up in the morning or someone rings to say there is a problem. All of the damage is done and the dog is gone. That is why all this talk about dog wardens is no good if the damage is done and the dogs are gone. There is no point ringing the council in the morning to say I want the dog warden to come out and look at dead sheep everywhere. It is no good. That is not working. We have to move on from that. The witnesses may have suggestions about what we can do when we put all of these points together.
Eileen Lynch (Fine Gael)
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I have one point relating to how dogs are getting on lands. It is not so much the night attacks, but the attacks during the day when people are leaving dogs loose. Dogs should not be on a farmer's land if it is private property. There is a slightly different issue if it is mountain land or commonage in certain places. In 2021, there was a proposal that all rights of way, which were rights of way through long use, would have to be registered. That was subsequently dropped. Would something like that be worth looking at? It would mean that rights of way that are currently open would be registered in the name of a person or a property. That would probably prevent walkers accessing farms because the rights of way to them would be cut off. The legislation proposed on rights of way in 2021 was subsequently dropped because it was felt it was too cumbersome with regard to rights of way of long use.
I do not know if that is something the witnesses feel would make a difference in terms of people out walking, etc., accessing lands.
Mr. Tomás Bourke:
To be clear, we have no problems with walkers and recreational users. The problem we have is with them bringing their dogs. I know to an extent the point the Senator is making, but the difficulty as touched on by Deputy Fitzmaurice is the mixed messaging around what is acceptable. That is why we talk about one clear and concise message. If someone is going walking on hills around open land, then he or she should not bring a dog. We cannot police it. There could be 500 dog wardens. Someone can police and watch dogs with the lead on at the gate and when they cross the stile, but who is going two miles up the hill to see where that dog has gone over the far side of the hill? It is impractical, so there is only one solution, which is consistency of messaging. This has to be fair to the dog owners and the walkers as well. If someone wants to bring a dog for a walk, then go in a controlled area where the dog can be kept on a leash and the land is not on, or in any contact with, farmland. If someone wants to walk the hills, then leave the dog at home.
Mr. Willie Shaw:
Rights of way have caused, and will cause, trouble over the years. A lot of people have access to other properties and other land further in. To register that in one name is not going to happen and will not work. I do not mean that to be biased, but we have to be practical because everybody is entitled to access. Let us take the proper approach so that people have access under consent. This is a big issue that the ICSFA wishes to raise. If nobody else can go into someone's property without consent, why should this be any different? These lands are easily accessed if people really want to get to them.
Mr. John Joe Fitzgerald:
I agree 100% with what Mr. Bourke said. There can be no ambiguity around dark-shaded or any other type of area where bringing dogs onto farmland, especially hills, is concerned. It is a no-no, and that message has to come out from here. The biggest problem we have is that, if a guy or girl brings a dog onto a commonage and a farmer approaches to tell that person to bring the dog home, that guy or girl tells the farmer that he or she got permission from the landowner. How can someone get permission from 20 landowners? That is why we are saying we need a total ban on recreational users bringing their dogs onto our hills and farmlands, bar the hunts, dogs for the blind and stuff like that. If we do that, it will be a better society and give farmers more of an opportunity if they feel they want to open up for walks and schemes. The biggest hindrance at the moment to these walk schemes is recreational users with dogs. That is what I have been told. Before I came here today, I was on the phone to someone named Vincent. There are a lot of landowners out there who are thinking of closing the walks down unless the serious issue with dogs is dealt with.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There have been many questions, so if there are points the witnesses want to forward on, they should please send them to the secretariat for the consideration of the committee.
I have one brief question about the database. There are a number of databases operated by different organisations. They are not co-ordinated. Who would the witnesses see holding and managing a database and who would carry the costs of it?
Mr. Tomás Bourke:
The Department of agriculture has extensive experience of running the animal identification and movement system, AIMS, database for our bovines and is building the sheep one. That is the logical place for it, but the Chair should also be reminded that there are amendments to the European regulation on traceability for dogs and cats that we also need to ensure we align with.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There are two questions. Where is the database and who would pay for it?
Mr. Hugh Farrell:
The dog owner, and I will follow up on what Mr. Bourke said. We agree totally because if they are being chipped by the vet, there is a native system they can be registered on. They are automatically transferring into the database. That whole facility is already set up except for maybe a bit of tweaking on the IT side. It is up and running, so this is not impossible. It will not take a long time to do it. Now, in the beginning, is the time to make it happen before there is more harm done.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Before we go, may we ask the organisations to submit a summary of what was discussed to the Chair?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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They will be sending in their responses to the unanswered questions anyway.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses can make submissions to the committee. The committee is talking about doing a report and that will be a public document once published, but not before then.
On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for taking part in the meeting, preparing for it and for the great deal of information.