Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 24 June 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Key Challenges to Tackling Homelessness: Discussion
2:00 am
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Apologies have been received from Senator Maria McCormack. I advise Members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings.
The key challenges to tackling homelessness is the topic of our meeting today. It presents a complex array of challenges that require a co-ordinated approach from Government agencies, non-profit agencies and communities to create sustainable and inclusive solutions. Today I am pleased that we have the opportunity to consider this and other related matters further with representatives from the Ombudsman for Children, Westmeath County Council and Dublin City Council. From the Ombudsman for Children's Office, I welcome Dr. Niall Muldoon, Ombudsman for Children; Ms Nuala Ward, director of investigations; and Dr. Tricia Kielthy, head of policy. From Westmeath County Council, I welcome Mr. Barry Kehoe, chief executive of the council, which is the lead authority for the midland region's homeless services; Ms Jackie Finney, director of services; and Mr. Vincent Gleeson, administrative officer. From Dublin City Council, I welcome Mr. Mick Mulhern, assistant chief executive and Ms Mary Hayes, director of the Dublin Region Homeless Executives, DRHE.
Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to another person in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks, and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
The opening statements have been circulated to members. I propose that we take the opening statements as read and that we publish the statements on the public forum. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I will now invite members to discuss various issues with the representatives. I remind anyone who is attending remotely to please raise his or her hand and to turn on his or her camera to show he or she is within the confines of Leinster House.
Our speaking rota has been circulated to all members in advance. I will give six minutes each. I remind members and witnesses that the six minutes include both questions and answers. I ask members to be quick with their questions and to direct them to whomsoever they wish to ask. I remind witnesses that we are tight on time. Other members will come in during the meeting and I want to give everyone the opportunity. If we have time afterwards, we will have a second round of questions. I am also conscious that the office of the ombudsman will be in the meeting until 4.30 p.m. We will make sure to do an entire round of questions in case a member has a particular question for the ombudsman.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses from the three groups for coming before the committee today. I thank them for their opening statements too. As the Chair said, we have read them in advance and do not need them to be read.
I will start with the Ombudsman for Children's Office. I thank Dr. Muldoon for outlining the position as he sees it at present. We all understand the impact of homelessness on children and on their lives going forward. I will focus on the numerous recommendations he has made to the Government. He concluded that paragraph by stating the figures continue to increase. Will he briefly outline the recommendations he has made? How many have been taken on board and how many have not? Will he give us a summary of his engagement with the Government and his feedback to the Government on this issues?
Dr. Niall Muldoon:
I thank Deputy McGrath.
Since about 2015 when I came into office, we have been very aware of the move and the increase in family homelessness. We did not see it as an issue until around that time. It is something that has been created as a result of the economic crisis and the policy decisions that were made at that point to move away from local authority housing. That is why we created the consultation with children and young people living in family hubs in 2019. Sometime around 2017, the then Minister, Simon Coveney, made a promise in Rebuilding Ireland that 47,000 social houses would be ready by 2021. They did not come on board. From 2019 onward, we made the recommendation that we need to focus specifically on children and families through various Ministers who have come through the portfolio. That is the main recommendation that has not been taken on board.
We constantly hear figures about units, investment, in companies, landlords and the need for private investment. However, we do not hear talk about the children who are suffering at the hands of this crisis. The potential constitutional right to housing was discussed in two programmes for Government. That did not happen. There has been a consistent failure to bring children into this discussion. Children are still not in the legislation. For example, the 1988 legislation does not allow for children to be considered in their own right. They are seen as an add-on to the adult who owns a house or who is homeless. We have the whole rounded position that children have their own right to housing and shelter. Everything that falls out from that when they do not have it is the piece that is devastating for us. We have consistently seen, time after time, that every initiative seems to be failing on many grounds, but children are not even considered in them. That is the sort of ongoing exasperation that we have expressed within the statement today.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Dr. Muldoon for his frank response.
Time is against me so I will move on to the Dublin Region Homeless Executive, DRHE, and Westmeath County Council. I will go to the Dublin representatives first, both of whom are working on the coalface. We know the homelessness figures are at their highest point. The trajectory has not been good vis-à-vis the past. What is their sense of it on the ground? Do they see any light at the end of the tunnel? Do they think it will get worse? I would like their honest opinions on that.
What is the reality on the ground regarding the funding constraints on the tenant in situ scheme? Will they comment on that? I am sorry that we are caught for time. We have two minutes for both representatives to reply.
Ms Mary Hayes:
I will start with what we see on the ground in Dublin. It is important to say that we are seeing relentless presentations as opposed to rising presentations necessarily. It stays within a certain range. What happens, and the reason the homelessness figures increase month on month, is we are not keeping pace. The numbers moving out into a tenancy are not keeping pace with presentations. We are concerned about the drivers. We know a lot of information about the drivers of homelessness. It is that we respond and react to them. We will have to see whether notice of termination for rental under the recent legislation will increase security of tenure for tenants because landlord sale is a key driver for family homelessness.
On the single side, we are concerned about institutional discharge from one institution into another. That does not seem to be a well-thought through or planned approach to homelessness. That is particularly so with IPAS, which is driving about a quarter of the presentations of single homelessness. Does Mr. Mulhern want to talk about tenant in situ?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I ask Mr. Mulhern to be brief. I will probably have to come back to Westmeath. Will he comment on tenant in situ?
Mr. Mick Mulhern:
I can only speak for Dublin City Council. We were allocated €95 million this year but that has to take account of completions and acquisitions that were in train in 2024 and refurbishment costs for works done in 2024. We are currently processing approximately 137 tenant in situ acquisitions, which were generated and identified last year. At present, we are finalising how much of the €95 million is left to commence new acquisitions this year.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is it fair to say there will not be a lot left?
Mr. Mick Mulhern:
We are just getting to the bottom of that at the moment. Of the €95 million, €37 million was for acquisitions completed last year. Approximately €40 million of acquisitions are currently in train. There is about €10 million in refurbishment works but some of that refurbishment cost might be funded from an alternative stream. It is hard to put an exact figure on that at present. We spend approximately €330,000 per unit on average, depending on how much money is left. We hope that in the next month or so we will have a much better line of sight on how much of the funding will be left.
Ms Jackie Finney:
As in Dublin, as Ms Hayes said, we are seeing an increase. One of the drivers is family homelessness involving children with one or two parents. We work across the four authorities in the midlands. Westmeath is the lead authority for Laois, Offaly, Longford and Westmeath. There are 95 children in emergency accommodation across the region. In the midlands region, we are trying to concentrate on prevention. The tenant in situ programme was mentioned. Last year, 46 houses in total were acquired just for Westmeath under the tenant in situ programme. It is obviously much more restricted this year. The allocation for Westmeath is €5 million so it is more restricted.
We are acquiring a number of properties at the moment, but one of the key targets is for exits out of homeless and emergency accommodation. We have also invested a lot of resources into HAP place finders, tenancy sustainment officers and homeless prevention staff who work across the four authorities to try to assist families to prevent them losing their homes and to work with them. Some of those families are accommodated in private emergency accommodation. Obviously, we do not feel that is suitable but we are working to set up family hubs in the midlands region. The Department is very supportive of that. We hope to open a family hub in Westmeath during the summer. It is about trying to find more suitable accommodation for families, which is supported, and preventing families from becoming homeless in the first instance.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the local authorities and the ombudsman's office for their work, especially the work of their front-line staff. I acknowledge that.
I have three questions for the DRHE and three questions for Dr. Muldoon and his team. A sum of €355 million for homeless services, predominantly emergency accommodation, is a huge amount of money. Does Ms Hayes have a breakdown of that spend in terms of how much is going into private emergency accommodation versus the not-for-profit providers? She recently provided some information to me on request on what the cost would be if a family with a three- or four-bedroom need presented for emergency accommodation now, given that it would be private emergency accommodation. Will she share that and an explanation for it with the committee? I note that at the end of her presentation she referenced the potential move to directly fund the building or acquisition of Dublin city owned emergency accommodation. Does that send a signal there is no expectation that levels of homelessness are likely to decrease any time soon? In fact, they may get worse.
One of the words Dr. Muldoon used for the impact of homelessness on children was "catastrophic". I am sure he did not use it lightly. Does he think we are at risk of normalising homelessness? Month on month, the numbers come out and are reported on with less attention than previously. Does he have a concern that some recent changes, for example, reductions in funding for tenant in situ, missed social housing new-build targets, or some of the changes to the rent pressure zones and the commentary by organisations such as Focus Ireland, could have a negative impact on the number of children in emergency accommodation? Does he have any comment on the fact that the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, in its most recent form, is not addressing the issue of the rights of the child he and others have highlighted?
Ms Mary Hayes:
I am looking at the amount we spent in 2024. The overall budget was approximately €305.2 million. Of that, €270 million was spent on emergency accommodation. That is about 88% of everything we spent in 2024. We spent €201 million of that on private emergency. The balance of emergency accommodation funding went to NGOs.
On the alternative cost of emergency accommodation, I did bring the figures with me but I am happy for the Deputy to read them out. The context for us was second-hand acquisitions. The DRHE is also concerned about the families who are already in homelessness as much as we are concerned with preventing homelessness for families who are currently in private rented accommodation. I am worried about the cost of long-term homelessness. We have to weigh it up against the cost of housing. It is around the alternative cost of housing compared to emergency accommodation and not forgetting, when we think about the tenant in situ scheme, the other people who do not have these second-hand acquisitions. We have an acute need, especially in Dublin, for larger houses, including three- and four-bedroom accommodation, to meet the needs of families who are in housing long term because we do not have enough of it coming in via our pipeline in the medium term.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
As a prompt, from the data the DRHE provided to me on request, if a family with a three-bedroom need were going into emergency accommodation now, at the upper end, private emergency accommodation would be approximately €140,000 a year. For a family with a four-bedroom need, if they were to go into emergency accommodation now, the upper end would be approximately €180,000 a year. Many of the larger families spend two years plus in emergency accommodation. Is that correct?
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is the DRHE's own funded emergency accommodation coming from the Department? Is it something from within Dublin City Council? What does it say about the kind of expectation of what will happen with homelessness trends in the short to medium term?
Ms Mary Hayes:
We have seen a relentless increase in homelessness. We have not kept pace in being able to provide housing supply quickly enough, in addition to affordable private rental, which is another reasonable alternative to homeless accommodation. To that end, we are looking at how much we are spending on private emergency accommodation.
It will not entirely replace our dependency on private emergency accommodation but the idea is that we would at least purchase or acquire some buildings to reduce that cost on the revenue.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is a signal that there is no expectation at this point, all things remaining the same, that the numbers are going to fall anytime soon. DRHE is going to invest a significant amount of capital in its owned homes.
Ms Mary Hayes:
I have some hope that the private rental legislation will address the security of tenure issues for people, particularly in terms of landlord sales. There are things we can do better to support people who are experiencing rent arrears. There are things we can do and I do not want to give up; far from it. However, I am conscious that the need is unlikely to abate in the short term.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We will now move to the ombudsman as time is running tight.
Dr. Niall Muldoon:
I am very concerned about the normalisation of homeless figures. As the Deputy said, we do not use the word "catastrophic" very often, but that is what we are looking at. On a consistent basis, the figures I have seen suggest that the vast majority of people in homelessness, including the 4,700 children, have been homeless for more than six months. That is an extremely lengthy time to be in homelessness. Most people in homelessness have been homeless for more than a year. That is an abnormal childhood. Even for children who get out of homelessness after 12 months, it is an abnormal childhood and has a considerable impact.
Normalisation comes along when we forget to mention these things and the numbers are no longer headlines. For the child, the normalisation is that he or she thinks that is where she or she belongs or what he or she deserves. Nobody is helping or changing the routine or narrative. Nobody is coming to provide a solution. That normalisation is going to impact those children for their lifetimes. It will carry on. Solutions around prevention that should have been put in a lot earlier have not been put in. People have worked hard on prevention in the last period of time. We have been signed up to the Lisbon treaty since 2020. We asked at that stage that we prioritise bringing children and families out of homelessness. There are now 2,200 families who are homeless. That is not a lot of units to move those children on and get them out of homelessness. It is about trying to create a narrative that tells children they are worth us making an extra effort. We need to change the narrative and tell those children that it will be different for them. We need to be saying that we will prevent people falling into homelessness and get those children out of homelessness as quickly as possible. Once that happens, we can move on to the other type of homelessness, which is that affecting single people who have a different set of issues. There is, unfortunately, normalisation going on. I will ask my colleague to respond on the other two elements of the Deputy's questions.
Dr. Tricia Keilthy:
The Deputy's questions underline why we are calling for a child- and family-specific homelessness strategy. We need to recognise the unique vulnerability and needs of children and ensure that their rights and well-being are prioritised. The youth homelessness strategy could form a blueprint for a child and family homelessness strategy. I would focus on three pillars, which are prevention, supports while in homeless accommodation, and support for exiting from homelessness. The tenant in situ scheme is important. We must ensure we are funding prevention effectively and giving children access to a child and family support worker when they are in homeless accommodation. We must also ensure we are building social and affordable housing in line with the target of 20%, as recommended by the Housing Commission.
On the question of developing policy and legislation around the rights of children, one thing our office is doing is pushing for the full and direct incorporation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child into domestic law. That would mean that at the early stages of developing policy and legislation, we ensure it is rights-compliant and give those obligations, for which we have signed up, real force. It is the most significant thing we can do for children's rights. That is the kind of radical change we need if we are going to address the housing crisis that is affecting children and families right now.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses for coming in. I am conscious that the three witnesses are at the sharp end of dealing with homelessness. We do not have anyone here from the Department or the agencies that provide the mainstream funding and resources to deal with or prevent homelessness and its consequences.
In the witnesses' experience, how important is it to have a dedicated child support worker, especially for families experiencing homelessness, so that the high degree of trauma that children experience is managed appropriately and minimised?
Dr. Niall Muldoon:
From our point of view, it is hugely important. What you are doing is recognising that children have a different set of needs to everybody else. Children cannot look after themselves. They need extra supports. They need support to access education. They need family support. They need to be facilitated in their growth as young people in their own right. That is agreed in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. The State is derelict in its duty by not having that extra support. Children who find themselves homeless and for whom we have been unable to provide shelter have already been neglected. We then need to provide the best possible support so that trauma is somehow mitigated. Child support workers are not even a Band-Aid on a gaping wound, but they are a start. Not having them should not be countenanced.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is important. Do either of the Dublin or Westmeath speakers have child support workers in place? If so, how are they funded?
Ms Mary Hayes:
There are some in place in the NGO-run services in Dublin. They are funded through Tusla and the HSE. The sector feels this is an area in which there is more need to be met because of the growth in the number of children in homelessness services.
Ms Jackie Finney:
In temporary support accommodation, there are staff. They are not called child support workers but there are staff there who support the families. They are conscious to link in with educational supports. They are based within the facilities, which are funded under section 10. There is also a nurse dedicated to supporting families in homelessness. The nurse links into the supported accommodation facilities and those in private emergency accommodation to connect people with the health services that are required by a family, including children. Families as a whole, including children, receive support, but there is no dedicated child support worker, as such.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does Ms Finney feel that a child support worker should be in place in the different local authorities?
Ms Jackie Finney:
It would definitely be a help. The service providers - the agencies that are running the temporary accommodation - do a very good job, but it would definitely help to have dedicated support for children to link them in with all the services. A resource focused on that would most definitely be a help.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I think it would be vital for children. Has work been done concerning the value of providing these services now versus the future cost of supporting these children, given the long-term consequences of homelessness if those services are unavailable?
Ms Jackie Finney:
There has not been a detailed analysis of that. I could not produce a report detailing the cost. However, everybody who is working in homeless services is aware of the need for early intervention to assist children from a young age to get the supports they require. Otherwise, there is a cost in other areas to the State over the long term. There is no detailed analysis. We certainly have not done one in the midlands region anyway.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
As we are well aware, early intervention is vital. It could help the situation down the road.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We are well aware that the number of homeless children at the moment is not good for our country. Perhaps more should be done for children. We should see if more supports could be put in place to keep them on the right road.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Perhaps the ombudsman or the representatives of Dublin City Council would like to comment on the question. There is one minute left in the time slot.
Ms Mary Hayes:
The Deputy has made reasonable points. We in Dublin welcome the fact that the HSE and Tusla fund child protection social workers for the NGO teams that are working directly with families. We see that it makes a difference when the support is provided directly to children as well as having a worker with the family. It makes a difference to have dedicated child supports.
Dr. Niall Muldoon:
I agree that the provision of child support workers is crucial. I do not know of any report either, but the idea of a single parent or two parents together and their children going into a traumatic situation without the support of someone who knows about trauma-informed work, such as a child support workers, is unconscionable and makes it difficult.
People have not planned or prepared for this and we really need to know that every child is being supported to the utmost of our ability as a State. It will save down the line and it is crucial that we try to provide that where we can.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank everyone for coming in. I have a couple of questions, the first of which is for the representatives of the children's ombudsman. Why do they think the scale of child and family homelessness is not a national scandal? It is institutionalisation and we know that it leaves lasting damage. Do they see a future requirement for a redress scheme for children who have been through homelessness, given that the State is failing to protect them and given the level of institutionalisation that is going on? Do they agree with the statement that children are invisible and hidden in homelessness in Ireland, particularly in relation to the counting of children? Do they know how many children have been through emergency accommodation, for example, in the last ten years in Ireland?
The DRHE is obviously doing huge work in trying to prevent homelessness and support families who are in it. Does Ms Hayes think we are failing these children and that they are being institutionalised in a way that is deeply damaging to them? Have they concerns that the recent changes in the rental sector, including the change to allow inter-tenancy rent increases, will lead to a potential rise in homelessness, particularly given the issue of HAP? Do they think that between now and 1 March we might see a rise in evictions, with landlords seeking to get in before the changes are brought in? In terms of their own data, do they have figures on how many children presented as homeless in Dublin last year? How many children have been homeless and through emergency accommodation in Dublin in the last decade?
What Mr. Mulhern of Dublin City Council put forward as a solution to homelessness is social housing and the delivery of same. How would he rate the prospects of the delivery of social housing in Dublin in the coming years? I ask him to comment, in particular, on the decision of the Minister for housing to withdraw funding from the social housing PPPs. Does he see that as damaging to social housing delivery in the short term in Dublin?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There are lots of questions there so I ask witnesses to be conscious of that when they are replying.
Ms Mary Hayes:
From our perspective, emergency accommodation should always be perceived as a State failure. It is meant to be a very short term response. It is not providing housing for children. Our absolute target would be that while there will always be a space for emergency accommodation, it should not be for any longer than six months. That is the hope and we would still ascribe to that view. In terms of the new legislation, I welcome the protections around landlord sale. They are very important, given the drivers that we see in Dublin. I would have some hope that the extended term for no-fault evictions will stabilise things as well. In terms of what happens on the resetting of rents between tenancies, I am concerned about that, obviously, and we need to think about that, particularly as it relates to HAP. Where we may already be using the full discretion, we need to consider how that is going to work and how we are going to keep pace. It is very early days. We have not have seen how it will work out but they are my early thoughts on it..
In terms of the numbers for last year, 909 new families and 1,857 children came into homelessness in 2024.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Over the last decade, how many children have been through emergency accommodation?
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
If we could get that information, that would be great.
Mr. Mick Mulhern:
Housing delivery is critically important in helping to solve this long-term problem. In the Dublin city area, we have a housing delivery action plan which sets targets for 2022 to 2026. In 2025 we will likely just meet our target of 2,122 homes, hopefully. What we are seeing as we track this is that we are on target at the moment, with about 300 homes completed so far. We are closely monitoring that. On current projections we are likely to exceed the housing delivery action plan targets for 2026. That said, we do appreciate that we will be receiving higher numbers, or increased housing targets but what I would say is that the local authority and the AHB sectors have ramped up significantly from a much lower base of housing delivery four years ago to what we are doing now. There is capacity within the sector to further increase that and deliver more. We are discussing what those measures might look like with the Department.
In terms of the impact on the PPPs within Dublin City Council there were three projects in bundle 3, as well as one in Sligo, one in Wicklow and one in Kildare. Those projects were due to start on site in July but they are delayed. We are currently working on an alternative route to get those out to market. We are working on that at the moment and hope to be clear within the next month as to what the revised timeline and route looks like. Future bundles 4, 5, 6 and 7 were not as advanced so we are also considering what the alternative delivery model is for those. While there might be some delay on those later bundles, they will not be as affected as bundle 3, which was due to start on site in July. Once we have clarity on the timeline, we will make the elected officials and community groups aware of the new timelines.
Ms Nuala Ward:
Just in relation to the question on child homelessness as a national scandal, it is actually a national shame. We should all feel deeply shameful that we have children in this country growing up, not just for a few months, but growing up in bed and breakfast accommodation and hotels. We are paying State money to private providers for this type of accommodation and it is having a devastating impact on children. While we can talk about numbers, we have to remember that we have heard directly from children who are sitting in bathrooms when their mammy is trying to put their baby sister to sleep in the bed that they are all sharing. They are reading their books, trying to be quiet. We have children who are devastated because their pet dog or hamster is not allowed in the family hub and they have had to leave them behind with their granny or their aunty. Imagine that. The most important point that we have heard repeatedly from children is around shame. I am not sure if anybody here has grown up in any state of poverty or can remember being deeply ashamed of not having something or knowing that you are poor or different, that there is something different about you relative to your peers. That shame does not leave people. That shame does not leave and that is what we are doing to children. Should there be a redress scheme? Can we give children back their childhood? No, we cannot. That would be our view on that.
Dr. Tricia Keilthy:
In response to the question as to how invisible children are in the homelessness figures, we certainly need much better data on homelessness. If we do not know what the situation is, we cannot understand it properly or respond effectively. We do not have a good idea of how many children are experiencing hidden homelessness. We also do not count every child who is in transitory accommodation, whether that is those in a domestic violence refuge or those in direct provision with status who cannot move out. We certainly need a more holistic understanding and much better data. We also need to know how many children are affected by homelessness. It is not just about a point in time, but about how many children actually enter into homeless accommodation in the course of their life and how many re-enter homelessness. We are not adequately capturing that. Certainly, any kind of strategy or action plan in relation to this must have good data behind it.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank all of the witnesses for coming in. Child homelessness is going to have life-long effects, unfortunately, for those children. At the other end, elderly homelessness is also an issue of huge concern. We can see it around us. I wish to refer to the midlands homeless action plan and ask some specific questions of the representatives of Westmeath County Council. I live in Laois and represent the Laois constituency, which explains why I am raising it. The witnesses outlined the most appropriate emergency accommodation and seemed to be veering towards family hubs. I ask Ms Finney to explain briefly, in three or four sentences, what that means. My next question is on the proportion of funding for homeless services in the four midland counties. The Simon community, up to two years ago, said that it was only 1.5% of the total funding in the State. I ask the witnesses to address where funding is at the moment. If I am reading it correctly, in 2024 it was €6.8 million for the region. Is that correct? I ask the witnesses to address what those family hubs would look like. They also mentioned that we need a more sustainable form of funding.
As one of the witnesses said, when they get to homeless services we have failed. It is about trying to stop that from happening. Will Mr. Kehoe outline the more restrictive tenant in situ scheme? Do he and his colleagues, the other chief executives, think this will lead to more homelessness and put more pressure on housing? On solutions, Mr. Kehoe outlined four pillars on his presentation. They are welcome. He states that infrastructure investment could reduce the over-reliance on private accommodation. Will he spell out in a couple of sentences exactly what he means on expensive private emergency accommodation? The sustainable funding model currently operates through section 10. I think I know what he is driving at there in terms of Department bookkeeping and how that should happen. He says that all four local authorities in the midlands are working to enhance and accelerate delivery of social housing units, specifically allocated to homeless people. I know local authorities are trying to ramp up. I know Laois has a fairly good record. There is further work to be done in the county, but they are going well at it. Will he tell me what the four factors slowing down housing delivery are from his point of view as chief executive? Is he being allowed, as county manager, to use the same plans that are being used in other counties? In other words, he is not starting with a blank canvas sheet on every housing development, but there are ten or 12 different types of houses to suit different household types. Is he allowed to use them or are we still more or less going to a blank canvas?
Ms Jackie Finney:
On family hubs I have referred to supported emergency accommodation. There is a facility called Teach Fáilte in Mullingar, which is a wonderfully run facility. The aim is that similar family hubs will be rolled out through the region. The Department is supportive of this, and it really is an alternative. It is emergency accommodation, so it has gone past where we have managed to prevent people going into homelessness. However, it is to address some of the concerns about the suitability of accommodation. My colleague spoke about children growing up sharing a room in bed and breakfast accommodation and not having adequate outdoor space or to learn how to walk.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
For clarity, would a number of families share a kitchen but have separate bedrooms?
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is the building privately owned?
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
But the council provides it.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am sorry for cutting the witness short. Will she move on to the other answers because I want to try to get to them?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Time is running short.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is that as a percentage of the State funding for the year?
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will Ms Finney come back with that?
Mr. Barry Kehoe:
The four barriers to delivery are the delays in going through the planning process, the procurement of consultants, the procurement of contractors and the process we need to go through with the Department to get approval on the four-stage process. It all takes time and there is the acquisition of land at the outset, and the preparation of initial designs. Unfortunately, from start to finish there are certain stages and they all have a timeline-----
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is Department approval too slow?
Mr. Barry Kehoe:
It is not that it is that slow, it is just that you have to go through the stages and each one takes time. We also lose time at the outset in acquiring lands, preparing preliminary designs and going through our own planning process. It is a combination of all the steps. I could not say the Department is too slow. It needs to consider it and it is a four-stage process.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is also the question of different counties using the same plans for different household types. In other words, a three bedroom semi in Westmeath would look like one in Laois. Is that the case or are they using-----
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Well, the Department told us it is doing it. That is why I am asking.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have been raising this consistently with the Department.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses for their presentations, and I have a question for each of them. The ombudsman mentioned that things started to change in 2016 when the focus became more on families and children. He said that legislation does not allow children's rights to be the focus on their own. He stressed in his report and statement that he will hold the State accountable to the Lisbon declaration pledge date of 2030. Will he elaborate on what a dedicated child and family homelessness strategy would look like? I ask that because in 2016 I sat where Dr. Muldoon is and debated the homelessness figures. I was given an undertaking by the then housing Minister that homelessness would be eradicated by 2020. That is why I am a little worried about the pledge, but that is the question.
On the DRHE, I am passionate about homelessness. I set up an organisation called Tiglin with a bus on the street many years ago. We now have nine different centres. It is to try to help people who are in a marginalised cohort. We run the Lighthouse cafe and every day we see anywhere between 250 and 500 people. What is interesting is that a lot of the people we are dealing with from the point of view of homelessness have additional needs, whether they be addiction or mental health issues. When I appeared here in 2016, I brought in an individual who had been given three houses by the State, and housing first was a wonderful model. Unfortunately, the housing supports were not there for him and therefore he kept losing the houses. Today, that chap is married, he is in business, he has a mortgage and he has his own house, so he is not relying on the State. How are we addressing additional housing supports for individuals like that?
Mr. Kehoe talked about homelessness and mentioned addiction and different things in his report. Does he agree that homelessness ultimately stems from the lack of housing availability? On the back of that, has he received his updated housing targets to revise his county development plan and unlock the land for housing?
Dr. Tricia Keilthy:
I thank the Senator and turn to what a child and family homelessness strategy would look like. I mentioned that we think the youth homelessness strategy could be a blueprint for this with the three pillars focused on prevention, looking at how we can prevent families falling into homelessness and how we resource local authorities. Some already have good plans in place so how can we learn from that and bolster those interventions to ensure children are not experiencing homelessness in the first place? We also want to see that-----
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Are any of those pillars prioritised?
Dr. Tricia Keilthy:
Prevention is obviously the most important and then supporting exits out of homelessness, particularly for children who are there more than six months. As the Senator mentioned, the way our legislation is set up, children themselves are not seen as rights holders so we need to see a change in how the best interests of the child are considered at local authority level to ensure their housing needs and considered, and their unique needs are considered at that point. The other pillars are supports while in homelessness and exits from it.
Dr. Niall Muldoon:
I will add to that. The concept is that we have 2,200 families. That is all. We are producing between 30,000 and 40,000 units per year. We should be in a position to move them out in an emergency situation. We know it is an unusual scenario to put the priority there, but we should be in a position over two or three years. That is only 1,000 families per year moving out. We should be in that position if we find an unusual and a new way to do it. That is why we are forcing the strategy. It should be in line with 2030. We should be able to find that position. I hope it is optimism.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I absolutely agree. If the numbers are that small, they could be handled properly.
Mr. Barry Kehoe:
The Senator outlined very well that there are many causes of homelessness and that it varies from individual to individual and family to family. The lack of housing availability is a contributing factor, of that there is no question. Regarding the Minister and the housing requirements, all CEOs received a letter from the Minister about two months ago - I do not have the exact date - advising us-----
Mr. Barry Kehoe:
-----that we were to prepare to vary our county development and city development plans to provide for additional zoning. We were also told that the housing requirement for each county would be notified to us soon. We have not got that follow-up letter to give us the housing requirements yet. That is a big problem. In my own area of Kildare, people were looking for a pre-planning meeting but the council said it had already gone over its target so it could not authorise it, because the council had not been given the updated housing targets. I am not surprised to hear this and I am sure this is the case in many of the faster-growing areas around the country. It is probably not such an issue in the slower-growing areas.
Ms Mary Hayes:
I thank the Senator for his work in this area. It is well recognised. Regarding the Senator's question on the partnership, we would hate to see a situation where it is just local authorities working in this area. The partnership of the HSE is critical for us because there is an understanding that yes, it is housing, but it is housing with supports, in some cases. Not everybody needs them but there are those who do.
Housing first is still there. It has not grown this year because we are waiting to go through a tendering process with the Housing Agency. Coming out the other side of that, we will have a well-supported and well-funded housing first team. They will work with chronic rough sleepers and those who are in long-term hostel accommodation. There have been improvements. The NGO staff were always acutely aware of and were resourced to work with people with in the areas of addiction and mental health. We have had much more buy-in, particularly from the HSE, in relation to the private emergency accommodation and being able to get specialised staff to go in and visit people. For me, it is about accessibility. We see this with the work of Safetynet Primary Care, for example. These are people who will come out with us to work with the outreach teams on the streets. This is critically important for me and I love to see when a service is willing to be that flexible and accessible.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On that point, Safetynet Primary Care is an amazing, game-changing service.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I welcome the witnesses and I apologise for not being here at the start. I will start with a little statement about what I am trying to understand here. To me, when we are addressing homelessness, the key worker, who makes it all work, is the social worker. My question to the local authorities is this: how many social workers work are there in their housing departments? That is the first question.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How many of those are social workers?
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
All right. That brings me on to this point which goes back a number of months ago. I will address this to Mr. Kehoe, the CEO. I am new to the housing committee so there is a lot of terminology and acronyms that I am trying to catch up on. At recent LAMA and CCMA conferences I could not understand how we did not put a focus on social workers to ensure we model what is there for elder care. We have Age Friendly Ireland, the secretariat of which is run through Meath County Council but then it supports all the other local authorities. For the life of me, I cannot understand why we cannot ensure - maybe an ask has gone to the Minister - that we have something replicated for disabilities or for homelessness or family homelessness. At management level, within the local authorities when the 32 managers meet to brainstorm, have they ever come up with that proposal to replicate best practice? I am only asking Mr. Kehoe to share with us, it is not for him solely. That seems like a good idea to me. The Age Friendly Ireland programme costs €5 million and it has a structure and it focuses on families to ensure that there is a fair, evenness of delivery. The focus is also on the lived experience of the social worker having their finger on the pulse.
Mr. Barry Kehoe:
Yes, there is a cohort of social workers across the service and across the sectors, be it age friendly or housing. In Westmeath, we had a social worker in the past. We have a difficulty in recruiting social workers at present. They just do not appear to be there when we go to recruit them. We have struggled with this across the sector, with the supply. We speak of those supports but we provide them through other staff that we have, who bring a certain set of skills. They are not necessarily qualified social workers, but they are trained and experienced in dealing with the age-friendly forum and the issues that arise there. In our housing staff, there is a wide breadth of experience. We work with all the other agencies as well in giving support to people, particularly homeless people. We also have our estate housing liaison officers, who work very closely with people in social housing across our counties, helping them and helping the estates to work well. They also help residents' associations in bringing community cohesion to those areas. We provide services with a wide range of personnel but unfortunately, in the more rural local authorities, we do not have that many social workers.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
To me, not having them or not applying for them is one thing but there is also not a funding budget for them. There is not a funding budget where social workers are specifically placed within the housing section of the local authorities. Therein lies the joined-up thinking piece. In this, needs are identified and prioritised and the housing departments link back in with the HSE and the various NGOs to provide a wraparound service, whether it is back into education, or whatever. That is actually the core work of what a social worker would do. The Age Friendly Ireland programme is hugely successful in the local authorities but we need to mirror that for homelessness and disabilities, within the housing sections of every one of our local authorities to ensure that priority is given to every family's needs. In cases where there are children with sensory issues or other additional needs, moving them from location to location only heightens their need and creates an instability that can be very hard on families in homeless accommodation.
I think there is a solution here when we look at what Dublin City Council can do and we hear about the mechanisms that can work. There has to be a method and it has to sit within a budgetary ask from the county managers to the Minister.
Mr. Vincent Gleeson:
We do have a homeless action team that meets every two weeks in each of the county councils, with the meeting in Longford being every three weeks. I do not have the full list in front of me of how many social workers are in each county council. I know that in our own council, we have seven social workers in different departments within the homeless services of the HSE who come to our meetings to highlight issues with their clients. We also forward clients to them so we have that kind of interaction with the HSE every two weeks. It is a very good system which does a lot of the work for us.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Mr. Gleeson, but the missing piece here is the link worker. While meetings are being held every three weeks, the day the person makes the phone call or arrives to the desk is missing. The first point of contact is with the local authorities, so we need the daily pick-up person there, that link worker, but also it needs to be mirrored out after that. There is a good piece that can be looked to, in this regard.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Go raibh maith agaibh and thanks for coming in here today. I appreciate it. The first issue I want to raise is that of the tenant in situ scheme. This was the best way to prevent families and children in particular from entering emergency accommodation and becoming homeless.
That has been gutted this year. Last year, 100 children and 88 adults were prevented from becoming homeless through the tenant in situ scheme. I think the Dublin Region Homeless Executive outlined how a lot of the funding commitments that had been made in 2024 carried over in 2025, which used up the majority of the 2025 budget. This means there will now be limited and reduced tenant in situ funds. In Cork city, all tenant in situ purchases stopped on 4 April. Do the Dublin Region Homeless Executive and Westmeath County Council they see homelessness increasing in their areas because of the gutting of the tenant in situ scheme?
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mr. Mulhern is saying there is a reduction, yet I have the Minister for housing and the Taoiseach telling me on the floor of the Dáil that funding is being allocated. We have local authorities telling us one thing and the Taoiseach and the Minister for housing telling us there is no problem here, but Mr. Mulhern is telling us now there is.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Yes, I have the figures, but Mr. Mulhern said €37 million of that was related to last year.
Mr. Mick Mulhern:
Last year, Dublin City Council completed 345 tenant in situ acquisitions. They were completed and claims were sent down to the Department. Last year, we were paid out about €80 million, which equated to 240 acquisitions. There were 105 acquisitions, which equalled €37 million and is coming out of the 2025 budget.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That was great work the witnesses' organisations all did through the tenant in situ scheme to prevent families from becoming homeless. Everyone involved in all the local authorities should be very proud of the work done there. However, it was then gutted by the new Minister when he came in.
I have a question I want to come to. The Simon Community told me recently that it had received no allocation of funding under the housing first strategy. Do the witnesses have a comment to make in relation to housing first?
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
No, this is nationally. Well, I think it is nationally, from when I was speaking to the Simon Community.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
To follow on from that, is there enough money there for local authorities and AHBs to deliver the housing first plans that they want to deliver?
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does anyone else have a comment on housing first? I heard Dr. Muldoon speaking earlier about the rise in the number of children. I spoke to a lady there about an hour ago. She has been in recovery for two and a half years. Her two children are with Tusla. They are being looked after now. She wants to get her children back. She is going to court at the moment but she is not allowed on Cork City Council's housing list because she lost a house previously. I think one of the members discussed it. She was in an abusive relationship, she was in the throes of addiction, she lost the house when she went into treatment and now she cannot get her children back. Where are the rights of those children to be with their mother and for the mother to be able to get her children back? The only thing blocking this is she cannot get on the housing list in Cork city, and because of that, she cannot get access to her children. Where are the children's rights coming in there?
Dr. Niall Muldoon:
It is difficult for me to comment on that individual case but it is crucial we start to look at our children and how they are impacted by homelessness, for example, the homelessness of their parents. There are situations where mothers go into homelessness with their children and the father is not allowed to visit. They may not be separated but they may not live together in certain places. The children are impacted in so many different ways and that is why we want to incorporate the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child into our domestic law so that every decision, whether it is on homelessness, housing, justice, education or health, is thinking of children's rights every step of the way. Everything has to be child rights compliant. We should be able to facilitate the best interests of the child every step of the way. That is something we need to push harder for. Situations like that should not be happening but with the way the situation is set up at the moment, it is not unusual, unfortunately. However, we have to provide second and third chances.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Have those children any rights? They are being denied their rights at the moment because their mother cannot get access to housing, so they are separated. It is the decision of the State to keep these children apart from their mother. What recourse have those kids or their families to try to get them the rights they should have? I completely support what Dr. Muldoon is saying about the rights of the child and the charter being implemented.
Dr. Niall Muldoon:
The ultimate target of every child in care through Tusla should always be reunification where it is safe, appropriate and in the best interests of the child. In that situation, that is where the people within Tusla should be pushing and the foster families who are involved should be aware of the situation in the wider sense.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Dr. Muldoon very much. I have one small question for Dublin City Council. The Dublin Region Homeless Executive collects data regarding rough sleepers who pass away on the streets. Every organisation should be collecting that data. It is vital data now. I know people who have died on the streets and in other towns and cities and there is no data being collected. If we cannot collect the data, how are we going to plan to try to prevent it? Is that something the witnesses are looking at doing?
Ms Mary Hayes:
That is a very valid point. The Health Research Board is collecting data on every death and it crosschecks any suspicious deaths of persons who are potentially homeless with ourselves on the pathway accommodation and support system, PASS, so it will now have a complete record. Every year, the HRB publishes a report that is based on lessons learned as regards any death it considers was a preventable death and what we should have done to intervene.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses very much.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Did Westmeath County Council want to come in on that?
Mr. Vincent Gleeson:
It is just to say that we keep a record of any deaths. We ask each county council to notify us of the death of any rough sleepers and we keep a record of it for ourselves. We then notify the Department within a week of the death. Even if people die in hospital and it comes to our attention that they were rough sleeping before they went in, we will notify the Department just to say that and we will keep a record ourselves.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Mr. Gleeson.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The next slot is a Fine Gael slot. I am conscious that it is nearly 4.30 p.m. I will let Deputy Sheehan in and then myself before the ombudsman leaves.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have a number of different questions and I thank the witnesses for their time.
In 2017, my colleague Jan O'Sullivan introduced the Housing (Homeless Families) Bill, which sought to amend the Housing Act to impose an obligation on local authorities to treat families as a unit. There was talk that the Government was going to accept this as part of the 2024 miscellaneous housing Bill but that obviously did not occur. How do the witnesses feel that would impact the work they do and the question of us fulfilling our obligations under the Geneva Conventions? Given the amount currently being spent and the use of emergency accommodation, should consideration be given to transitioning towards State-owned emergency accommodation? The homelessness crisis in which we find ourselves has been a permanent crisis for the last ten years.
Regarding discharge from direct provision and people not being provided with suitable accommodation, do the witnesses feel the Department of justice is failing these people? It seems people are being told to leave IPAS centres, for example, but are not being given any sort of suitable alternative other than to present to emergency accommodation.
I also want to ask about the impact of pulling bundle 3 of the PPP in Dublin and whether a resolution to that has been agreed and found.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
My understanding is that there are variations between local authorities around the country.
Ms Mary Hayes:
That is fair enough. With regard to the transition to State-owned accommodation, we will be dependent on both for now given the numbers in emergency accommodation. There is a desire to reduce our dependency on private emergency operators. Along with the Department of housing, we are certainly interested in exploring whether we could acquire and purchase some properties that would be suitable for use as emergency accommodation. We are exploring that as an alternative to reduce the cost of emergency accommodation.
On the question of direct provision, the answer to any problem should never be homelessness. I worry about those transition points between institutions and the transition from direct provision into homelessness. We are seeing it in single homelessness and in the number of family reunification applicants who are presenting to us as homeless. All of these people have rights and entitlements. We should not use homelessness as the answer to another issue. It is not appropriate. I would like to get more traction and get more joined up as regards how people can move out of direct provision without having to face homelessness and without that being part of the equation.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I personally feel that what the Department of justice is doing is dangerous because it is pushing the bounds of community and social cohesion. I am very concerned at how some of the data the witnesses have presented today might be misinterpreted for malicious purposes. That is my concern.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I might allow a couple more witnesses in to answer. Ms Finney was looking to come in on that question.
Ms Jackie Finney:
Families are treated as a unit so I do not really understand the question as it pertains to us in Westmeath and across the midlands. On the need for State-run homeless facilities, as I have said, in the midlands and across the region, we have a number of service providers who provide a good service. We are trying to move away from private emergency accommodation, on which a lot is spent at the moment. We are trying to move away from that. I spoke about the family hubs earlier. All local authorities, including ourselves in Westmeath, are looking at all of our other schemes, such as RAS, leasing and the tenant in situ scheme. While the tenant in situ scheme has been reduced, it can assist families exiting homelessness. We are also looking at our own local authority build programme, through which we are trying to move away from private emergency accommodation altogether.
As in Dublin, we have concerns about people moving from one institution to another in cases of family reunification where young people have come into the country and then reached the age of 18. We have experience of this across the midlands. All local authorities are working to support such people and engage with social workers and Tusla in respect of people who are just over 18 and coming into our services. It is an area of concern and one we are keeping an eye on. The numbers in the midlands region are small but it is an area we will be watching.
Dr. Tricia Keilthy:
We are certainly supportive of any changes to the Housing Act that would give greater visibility to the rights of children in their own right. That would allow local authorities to provide more holistic supports for children. Our housing legislation was not set up with children in mind. It is the sad reality that we do have to adapt our legislation to take account of that. It is crucially important to ensure the best interests of children are upheld. We are engaging with emergency services.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We are caught for time but I want to come in myself. I will specifically speak to the ombudsman and then I will come back to the local-----
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Could I get an answer to my question about the PPP and bundle 3?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have gone way over time and the ombudsman is leaving at 4.30 p.m. I just want to have an opportunity to make a specific point before then. Ms Ward made a point at the beginning about allowing all of our children to have a childhood. I am afraid that is not happening. As all of the witnesses and every single one of us, as public representatives, walked in through the hall, we will have passed a copy of the 1916 Proclamation, which committed to cherishing all the children of the nation equally. We have failed in that. In his opening statement, the ombudsman mentioned brave measures. What are his number one and number two brave measures? That is the challenge we have to put to Government.
Dr. Niall Muldoon:
Dr. Keilthy has outlined the strategy and the three pillars. For me, being brave is looking at this as a moment in time when we can get 2,200 families out of homelessness while underpinning the prevention stages. That is a change in the way we see it. Every time I bring this up, concerns are raised about people who are on the waiting lists for housing and who gets priority. People are worried that somebody in homelessness would get a house ahead of somebody else but we can easily define this as a real crisis that has never happened before. Before 2012, there was no family homelessness. Occasionally, a family would spend some time, three, four, five or six weeks, in bed and breakfast accommodation. For ten or 12 years now, the numbers of these families have been growing. The brave thing to do would be to say we are going to eradicate child and family homelessness in the next three or four years and that we will lift them all out while we are underpinning our prevention processes. We talk about taking back private ownership of emergency accommodation to create our own hubs. That is a good idea that will save money but it is essentially changing the pump on a sinking ship. You are getting a better pump but it will not stop us from sinking. Those families and children are sinking. We have to take them off the boat. We have to get them into their own houses as quickly as possible in a safe and consistent way and then make sure it never happens again. We are the third richest country in Europe and in the top 20 in the world but 20% of our children are still living in fear of poverty. We are about to tighten our belts again because of lots of other things that are happening. That is why this would be brave. We should look at these families as a one-off unit in an emergency situation and ask whether we can bring them all out as soon as possible.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have about five minutes until 4.30 p.m. I will give each member one minute for questions and answers with the ombudsman specifically. I call on Deputy Hearne.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Am I not next in the rotation?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am sorry. I am trying to give everyone an opportunity.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The Cathaoirleach should go with the order.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
If we are all getting a go, it is fine. Deputy Hearne can fire away.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The issue I wanted to raise before the ombudsman goes is the right to housing. How important does he believe putting a right to housing in law and in the Constitution would be in addressing the housing crisis?
Dr. Niall Muldoon:
I am on record as supporting a constitutional right to housing. From our point of view, this has been promised by the last two Governments. That is why we have moved onto the incorporation of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. If we get that into domestic legislation, it should provide the right to shelter in the same way for those children and families. We would support the right to housing if it comes forward but we will also be pushing for the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child to be brought into domestic law so that every decision would be based on compliance with children's rights. That would help us in the area of homelessness, preventing children from falling into homelessness and providing shelter for all. We fully support the right to housing and will be pushing for this alongside it.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is hard not to feel utterly depressed at having this same conversation at yet another meeting of the Oireachtas housing committee. The child and family homelessness crisis really kicked off in 2014. I was on South Dublin County Council at the time. The total number of children in section 10-funded emergency accommodation at that point was 880. It has increased 442% in the intervening decade. I know numbers do not convey the points Ms Ward has made. I understand that completely but thousands upon thousands of children have been forced into long-term stays in emergency accommodation during that period. As somebody who has sat at lots of these meetings, I know all of the witnesses have come in before and that they and their staff do great work but the ever-deepening scale of this has to be acknowledged.
I have one question. There will be legislation before the committee relatively soon, the housing (miscellaneous provisions) Bill. We are still not sure of the final shape of that Bill but, if the ombudsman or his team have any observations they would like to share with us, I ask them to do so.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
If the office has put anything in writing to the Department, could it be shared with the committee? The members would be interested in reading it.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Dr. Muldoon mentioned that we are the third richest country in Europe but we are also spending the second highest amount on housing so we are spending a lot. I know we are caught for time but internationally the numbers are high elsewhere. In the UK, 160,000 children are in homeless accommodation and there are 5,000 in Northern Ireland.
Has Dr. Muldoon looked at the situation internationally to see what more we can do here? Has he drawn anything from the international perspective or experience?
Dr. Niall Muldoon:
There is an international perspective to it, but we know that the policy decision we made after the economic crisis to close down the housing departments in local authorities is where we lost out - when we left it to the private market to provide children and citizens with accommodation.
We had a situation in 2017-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am interested in hearing what solutions we can put in place now to address child homelessness, drawing from international experience.
Dr. Niall Muldoon:
From our point of view, the idea is to make sure the child is at the centre of it. In places like Sweden, they ensure that children are part of the equation. Children are included from the start. There is a much more proactive situation from the very start. When a family starts to get into trouble, supports are immediately put in place so they do not become homeless.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will build on that point. We must look at the strategy that has been proposed and mirror the previous youth homelessness strategy into the family piece working in collaboration with the various agencies and local authorities. They have actions for prevention, wraparound services, and an exit strategy. We have seen that approach work previously.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Given the level of homelessness, including child homelessness, which has increased in the past year, do the witnesses believe the provisions within the homeless families Bill of 2017, which the Government was minded to introduce in the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2024, should be included within this year’s miscellaneous housing Bill?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses from the Office of the Ombudsman for Children: Dr. Muldoon, Ms Ward and Dr. Keilthy. I propose that we go into private session for one minute.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have a question for both Dublin City Council and Westmeath County Council, and in particular Ms Hayes, who mentioned acquiring properties that would be used for short-term emergency accommodation. Is that a relatively new departure that is being considered? What kinds of properties is she talking about? Are they actual houses or will they be larger properties with multiple family units? Is it single family unit accommodation or multiples? What stage are we at with that? Is it an advanced plan? Is the Department of housing supportive of it? Will Ms Hayes address those questions initially? I am not sure if Westmeath County Council has similar plans but will someone comment on it?
Ms Mary Hayes:
I thank Deputy McGrath. It is relatively new. We have to see how successful it will be, for a start. We do not know. We in the DRHE intend, with the support of the Department - which is very supportive of this - to see if we can tender and purchase properties that would be suitable for emergency accommodation. We are not talking about housing because that would fall under the long term leasing or enhanced leasing for the homeless we can do and we are going to run a RAS pilot in Dublin also. They would fall under housing alternatives for the homeless. In this case we are speaking about actual properties that might be suitable for emergency accommodation. As it is advanced, we-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Are they properties with five, six, eight or ten units within them? Is that what we are talking about?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Are we talking about apartment blocks?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does Westmeath County Council have similar plans?
Ms Jackie Finney:
We have a number of properties for short term accommodation through our interaction with the other service providers. We spoke about the family hub and that would be leased. Our approach in terms of any properties within our own stock, or through AHBs or leased with other service providers is for the purpose of long term accommodation - the housing first model - and supported accommodation. I have a large number but I do not have it to hand. We have 255 supported tenancies across the region through housing first, housing with supports and also through our regional support service. We have a number of different streams and it is for long term accommodation. We are trying to go straight from exiting homelessness into permanent accommodation.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
By way of a preface, this committee spent a very considerable period of time last year trying to get both the Peter McVerry Trust and the Department of housing in front of it following the near collapse of the trust in the summer of 2023. Both the Department and the trust continue to refuse to come in until the two independent regulatory reviews were complete. I want to express my deep disappointment that the Peter McVerry Trust refused to attend the Committee of Public Accounts last week. Those two independent regulator reports have been published and I hope we will get time in the autumn to have both the two regulators and possibly the trust and the Department in front of the committee.
I also acknowledge the considerable effort made by Dublin City Council and the DRHE in helping to stabilise the situation following the near collapse of the trust, particularly in terms of the needs of almost 1,000 people, many of whom live with significant challenges in their lives including homelessness. Since Dublin City Council and the DRHE are present I have three quick questions.
A rescue package of approximately €15 million was agreed between the Government, the DRHE and the trust. Can Ms Hayes give any update or information on that? Also, I understand that is not money for free and there are some conditions attached. Will Ms Hayes explain those to the committee? One of the issues that will need to be addressed is the deficit funding and competitive tendering model. In my view, that created a context where bad decisions by people in that organisation have put people's well-being and lives at risk. Will Ms Hayes give us a sense of whether deficit funding and competitive tendering will continue as was or will there be any changes? Is Ms Hayes recommending any changes to ensure the kind of recklessness that was at the heart of the near collapse of the trust would not simply be possible into the future?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Ms Hayes has one minute to answer.
Ms Mary Hayes:
I thank the Deputy. Regarding an update to what has happened in the trust, the Deputy will be aware of the €15 million exceptional funding that was awarded. What is happening with that rescue package right now is that there has been a large reduction of the debt level the organisation was carrying. That is managed very closely through the oversight group the Department, ourselves and the CCMA representative sit on. There is a massive amount of work to stabilise the organisation for the sake of the service users, really. It is less about the organisation and more about the service users in this case.
The €15 million was exceptional funding advanced by the State but it is repayable and that is one of the conditions of the oversight group. We are working, very much with the consent of the board of the Peter McVerry Trust, to be fair, on the transfer of unencumbered assets to recoup the value of that to the State over time. There has been complete co-operation with that. For us, the point would be to have a stabilised service, particularly in Dublin and the greater Dublin area. At the time we did explore all other alternatives and honestly I ruled them out and this was where we ended up. We considered whether there was capacity in Dublin to do all of the trust's work and we did not have it.
In terms of the deficit funding and competitive tendering model, there has been work done on that. The CCMA, the Department and DRHE have been involved in a review of section 10 funding. One of those recommendations, for example, is to disallow fundraising so that there will be no reliance any more on fundraising for the core parts of the service. That is not to say that an NGO cannot use fundraising money for added value but for the core parts we are tendering and saying are the absolute requirements of a service, fundraising cannot be used for towards that.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Has that report been concluded and given to the Department and the Minister?
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have a question for Ms Hayes. Given the suspension of the tenant in situ scheme and that last year the scheme prevented hundreds of families and in the region of 1,500 children nationally from becoming homeless, does Ms Hayes think the suspension of the tenant in situ scheme this year will result in a rise in homelessness?
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That legislation will not come into effect until next March.
Ms Mary Hayes:
Yes, there is that. For the rest of the year, regarding the tenant in situ scheme it is difficult for me to say. Not everybody who approached us looking for tenant in situ would automatically have ended up homeless. However, the scheme was absolutely important to us in terms of prevention. I do not know if anyone has anything they want to say on this. It is difficult for me to say exactly that one is equal to the other but it is important.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It was helping to prevent people being made homeless.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Now it is not available.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In regard to the issue of rising rents, people will still be able to be evicted for rent arrears into the future. The legislation will not change that. That is likely to still be a cause of homelessness, is it not?
Ms Mary Hayes:
As I said in my opening statement I would be very concerned if people just read this as people wilfully not paying their rent. That is not what we are talking about here. There is always a very small element of that but there are a lot of people who are genuinely struggling with the amount of rent they have to pay.
We encourage anybody in that situation to work on whether they are getting the absolute maximum level of discretion and whether they are having their rent recalculated based on their family circumstances. These are the only things we can do.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have just one more brief question and another for Mr. Mulhern. Does Ms Hayes think the HAP limits need to be increased? The Simon Community's look at the market shows very few properties available.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Okay, I thank Ms Hayes. On the PPPs and the impact on social housing delivery, I have gone through the figures there for Dublin City Council for 2027 and 2028. In 2027 15% of the social homes were due to be delivered via public-private partnership, which was 342 of the 2,200. In 2028 it goes up to 57% of the social homes due to be delivered by the city council coming through public-private partnerships. The figure is 1,127. Given what has happened, surely those targets for 2027 and 2028 are not going to be met and those delivery numbers are going out further, in the sense of the years in which they will be delivered.
Mr. Mick Mulhern:
What I can definitely say is bundle 3 is delayed. What we are working on now is how we take forward bundles 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 in the quickest way possible. There will likely be impact on bundle 4, but I hope the projects identified in bundle 5 should not be delayed, all going well and if we can find an appropriate delivery route. Bundle 3 definitely will be and it is likely to have an impact on bundle 4. We hope bundle 5, if we can find an appropriate delivery mechanism, can stay on track.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I noticed from the report that discharges from direct provision are having a huge impact on single adult homelessness cases. I think it accounts for 25%. How can the State ensure a smoother, more sustainable housing transition for people exiting direct provision?
Ms Mary Hayes:
When you are in direct provision and you have your status, if you apply for social housing you have an equal right to housing as everybody else. The question is about supporting people more actively to get private rented accommodation where they can, ensuring they are aware of their HAP eligibility and their entitlements. The Department ran a workshop recently, I think with the local authorities and the Department of justice, to make sure each side was aware of what is possible for the other and that homelessness does not become the automatic pathway.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We are talking about a cost of billions for IPAS provision and homeless services at this stage. It has increased 337% since 2015. It is not sustainable. Obviously it is back down to supply. It seems we are good at continuing to house people on a temporary basis but we are not getting the permanent housing supply in place.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mr. Mulhern for the tough ones.
Mr. Mick Mulhern:
Yes. We have worked recently to look at what our potential pipeline is within Dublin City Council across Dublin City Council and AHB schemes. Out to 2032 with schemes that are currently in train there is capacity for about 16,500 homes across those out to 2032. Out to 2030 it is about 14,500. When we look at Dublin City Council-owned land we have got about 96 housing projects under way at the moment with capacity for 11,500 homes over the next seven to eight years. Some 60% of that is social, 30% cost rental and about 10% is affordable purchase. For us the main thing is getting those 96 projects moving at pace and then thinking about how we can acquire. Dublin City Council has other land and assets but we are working on all of our big landholdings, so once we get our current pipeline moving effectively it is about how we think about acquiring or partnering to take on additional land or partnering with others to bring forward schemes.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mr. Mulhern means as alternatives to emergency accommodation.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have two questions. I will start with the second one, which is to Mr. Mulhern. He said 96 projects are going at pace at the moment. Was universal design a consideration? How many of those projects have units held aside for people with additional needs in line with the UNCRPD? That means universal access. A person in a wheelchair needs to be able to do the 360°.
Mr. Mick Mulhern:
We apply 10% of our stock to universal design, UD, and then there is an element of UD-plus. I do not know what that is off the top of my head within our pipeline of 11,500 homes. The other thing to note is we are required now for our social housing and our affordable housing to design homes in line with the Department's design for social and affordable homes that it sets.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How many houses in the last four years were allocated to people with additional needs with universal design?
Ms Mary Hayes:
The disability figures have been in excess of 10% every year but I do not know the number for the UD-plus off the top of my head.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
All right. It is amazing. The Land Development Agency was in here last week and told me it was only in planning and that there was no house delivered under universal design. That is neither here nor there. It is part of the planning now.
Returning to Ms Finney, when Deputy McGrath was asking a question earlier she referenced exiting homelessness into more long-term arrangements. Will she define what a long-term arrangement is? What is the period? In Galway county I do not have a hub. I do not have that space. I would say a lot of the rural counties do not have hubs. I am just trying to figure out what "long-term" means. It is not that we want to create hubs or anything like that, but should we have hubs that are more appropriate settings than relying on bed and breakfasts all the time?
Ms Jackie Finney:
What I am referring to really are permanent homes in our stock, so within local authorities but with tenancy supports, and also then with AHBs where they would be permanent with supports. Then in some cases they could be long-term leasing arrangements that could range from 15 to 20 years depending on the agreement with the AHB. They would provide supports in those.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What about more hubs? Should we be looking at having an allocation in the more rural counties?
Ms Jackie Finney:
It is something we looking at across the region. Obviously there are rural counties and people have to travel distances, so it would definitely be better to move away from private emergency to a more suitable family hub arrangement, but ideally it is long-term permanent accommodation we are trying to reach with all those families.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have a question about the PPP bundling and what that means for Dublin City Council's delivery. Has it paused de-tenanting because of the limbo it has been left in with that? I am asking with particular reference to Basin Lane, which is in PPP bundle 5. The planning was granted in February, de-tenanting commenced and 12 families have moved out. Has that been paused?
My last question is how many tenant in situ cases have gone without a response due to a lack of funding.
Mr. Mick Mulhern:
On the PPP, we are currently looking at an alternative delivery route for bundles 3, 4, 5 and 7 which have 16 Dublin City Council sites in them. It is fair to say, as I explained earlier, that bundle 3 is delayed. That was due to start on-site in July. We are trying to identify what the preferred route is. That could be up to 12 months of a delay. Bundle 4 is likely to have some delay, but not as bad as bundle 3. We hope the bundles after that will just follow in line with a new delivery route that is identified. There will be some delay but it is not across all bundles. Basin View is in bundle 5 and has planning permission. We had commenced some very early de-tenanting and we are working with the allocations team and the local community on that. There may be some specific cases that still need to be progressed.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
So that has been paused.
Mr. Mick Mulhern:
What we are looking at right now with the allocations team is whether there are still some tenants there would be merit in moving. There are always some that are kind of currently in train.
That is a live discussion which we are having with our allocations team and the local community and people who live there at the moment. On tenant in situ, to date in 2025 we have had 115 inquiries from people who have contacted us directly about the scheme. That is not the say that all of those have active notices of termination or would have actually come to us through a tenant in situ. That is how many calls or queries we have logged this year to date.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does Mr. Mulhern know out of that how many of them the council would otherwise be able to progress if it was funded?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have a couple of questions myself with regard to homeless services and the cost of transitioning properties from one service user to another. It is not funded yet there is an expectation that the social care provider bears the cost despite the fact that it is a property management issue. I would welcome comments on that. Do the officials from Westmeath County Council have a breakdown with regard to homelessness in the four counties of Longford, Westmeath, Laois and Offaly? I think there is a figure of 219 adults and 95 children. I would like to hear comments on the RPZ extension, particularly from the Westmeath officials since it is rolled out throughout the midlands and in a lot of areas it would not have been before. What are their views on that extension?
Mr. Barry Kehoe:
While Ms Finney is getting out the numbers, the RPZ extension does not have an impact on Westmeath, in that the whole county was already an RPZ. I know some of the other parts of the midlands were and I suppose it does protect existing tenancies, there is that advantage across the region in its entirety, as some parts were not previously in it. That element of it is certainly welcome. On the cost of transitioning from one tenant to another, it is running at about €16,000 per unit and we get a grant from the Department of €11,000 per unit. That is our rate. Is that what the Cathaoirleach meant?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It was more----
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Yes, the cost is borne by them.
Ms Jackie Finney:
Yes. When it comes to emergency accommodation, the operational funding for the services comes from section 10 funding. There is an allocation for the year which would include any costs relating to managing the building or ongoing costs. The staff costs for any of those facilities is covered under section 39 funding through the Department of Health. There is a recognition that there will be costs associated and in the past where there have been significant costs related to something extraordinary, perhaps, we liaised closely with the Department and have been able to make the case in the past for additional funding for such costs. When it comes to leased properties for supported accommodation, under the leasing arrangement there is limited funding to the organisation to maintain properties and taking forward the transition. It is limited, however.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is an opportunity to make a case to the Department for some funding to cover that rather than being left with the provider.
Ms Jackie Finney:
That has been the case in the past. We have been able to do that. Ms Hayes referred to the full cost recovery and that is the way we are hoping section 10 will go.
I have a breakdown by county but only from last year. I do not have a breakdown for this month. It is adults and children and is for May 2024. This is homeless presentations. Is the Cathaoirleach looking for figures for those in emergency accommodation or for presentations?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In emergency accommodation.
Ms Jackie Finney:
Okay, thank you. The breakdown for May 2024 in respect of adults and children for Offaly, Westmeath, Laois and Longford, respectively, is 50 adults and 24 children, 74 adults and 17 children, 30 adults and eight children, and 18 adults, respectively, and the region total is 172 adults and 51 children.
Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Are there figures for 2025?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I think that concludes our consideration of the matter today. I thank the representatives from Westmeath County Council and Dublin City Council for coming here to answer the queries. I think every query that was put by members was answered in detail. That concludes the committee's business in public session for today. I propose that the committee goes into private session to consider other business.