Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 24 June 2025
Committee on Defence and National Security
Recent Air Corps Developments: Discussion
2:00 am
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Ó Laoghaire and Deputy Crowe is substituting for him.
The joint committee will receive a briefing from the senior Department of Defence and Defence Forces' management in respect of recent Air Corps developments. I welcome on behalf of the committee Ms Jacqui McCrum, Secretary General and Ms Clare Tiernan, assistant secretary, Department of Defence; Lieutenant General Rossa Mulcahy, Chief of Staff, Defence Forces; Brigadier General Rory O'Connor, general officer commanding, Air Corps; and Mr. Declan Carville, assistant secretary and head of strategic human resources in the Defence Forces. Their accompanying officials and officers are also welcome.
The format of the meeting is that I will invite Ms McCrum and Lieutenant General Mulcahy to each make an opening statement. This will be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member has a seven-minute slot to ask questions and for the witnesses to respond. Members can indicate that they want to contribute.
I advise members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard I would ask any member participating via MS Teams that prior to making their contribution to the meeting he or she confirms they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.
Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity I will direct them to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
As witnesses are probably aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its website following the meeting. I invite Ms McCrum to make her opening statement, followed by Lieutenant General Mulcahy.
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
I wish good evening to the chair and members of the committee and thank them for inviting us to discuss recent Air Corps developments. As the Chair said, I am accompanied today by Ms Clare Tiernan, assistant secretary and member of my management board. Before addressing the Air Corps issue, I want to reflect on the position to date.
Since I took over the position of Secretary General, there have been a number of reports on various issues from the White Paper to the Commission on the Defence Forces, the Mohan, Meenan, Fitzgerald and Ward reports and the independent review group, IRG, report, totalling just over 400 recommendations in all. The challenging environment we operate within has become more difficult and fraught and committee members are all aware of the geopolitical paradigm we are now faced with. These developments have required a significant policy response and that is what the Department has been, and continues to be, focused on.
It is important to highlight the significant work that has been undertaken over the past five years to transform the Defence Forces, including the Air Corps. This transformation, led by successive Ministers for Defence, has been framed by the report on the Commission of the Defence Force and the associated implementation plan; the implementation of the IRG report, including the establishment of a statutory external oversight body, the implementation of the strategic framework and the publication of the defence policy review. There have been key developments. Budget 2025 provided a record allocation of €1.35 billion for the defence sector, the highest amount in the history of the State. This allocation includes capital funding of €215 million in 2025, providing for Defence Forces equipment and infrastructural needs. This represents an increase of €39 million, or 22%, on 2024 and includes over €130 million for capability development investment, of which €55 million relates to essential aircraft project, such as strategic reach aircraft, light utility helicopter projects and C295 military transport aircraft. This level of investment clearly demonstrates Government’s strong commitment to defence and will provide the Defence Forces with an increased capacity necessary to respond to increasingly more complex global security threats and events.
Some €50 million is being invested in national defence infrastructure this year. In respect of Casement Aerodrome at Baldonnel the following projects, costing a total of €5.8 million have been completed in recent years: new redeployable modular accommodation to facilitate increased training requirements, an upgrade to hangar 3 and a main technical stores refurbishment.
Planning is under way for a new barracks service store, a new accommodation building, a new gym, a new crash-rescue building and a new ATC tower. A step change as to how we future proof our infrastructure for the next 30 years has been approved by the Tánaiste to recently complete the development of an airside master development plan to further develop Casement Aerodrome and provide means to reaching level of ambition, LOA, 2.
On the HR front in the Defence Forces, there has been significant progress on pay and conditions. Recruits on completion of training now start at over €41,000, an increase of 49% over the past six years, while the pay of graduate cadets now commences on over €50,000. Recruitment age has increased to 39 and to 50 for direct entry specialists. Mandatory retirement age increased to 62. Private secondary healthcare has been rolled out to all PDF members. The working time directive has been extended across the Defence Forces. Patrol duty allowance payable to Naval Service personnel at sea has been doubled. A technical pay 2-6 review has been completed and implemented and is targeted at specialist personnel.
As outlined, on the direction of successive Ministers, the Department has been proactively working with our military colleagues in transforming the Defence Forces in the manner expected by Government and by our citizens. The impact of the actions undertaken has resulted in a stabilising of personnel numbers in 2024. We are also seeing continuous growth in the number of applications the Defence Forces are receiving to join the organisation with 13,400 received in 2024 alone.
We do, however, have a journey to travel and there are specific challenges in recruitment and retention of specialist personnel including air traffic controllers. I would like to highlight the targeted work that has been done to address this specific challenge. An internal report from December 2021 was a joint effort between the Department and the Defence Forces making recommendations and was produced prior to the Commission on Defence Forces report in 2022.
The majority of the recommendations in the report of the working group are internal management matters. Sanction for the introduction of a service commitment scheme was actioned by the Department when it received the business case for same from the Defence Forces. In addition, the following actions were taken: new recruitment options, including an air traffic control cadetship competition was approved and introduced in 2024; direct entry opportunities have been developed; and flexibility in promotion processes and criteria have been approved. I should note the constructive support of the representative associations in bringing these measures forward.
The committee may wish to note that the challenges facing the Air Corps in retaining air traffic controllers has changed significantly since the 2021 report. We have seen an increase in commercial activity in terms of there being other opportunities for air traffic controllers in Ireland. It is a fact that there is a growing shortage of air traffic controllers globally. That is why recently the Tánaiste has secured agreement to extend the service commitment scheme for pilots in the Air Corps to air traffic control personnel. It is understood that these measures should stabilise the current numbers but will also form the basis for the full recovery and building up of resilience of the service in the coming years. Other measures are also actively being looked at with Air Corps colleagues in terms of securing additional resources, including from external service providers, to ensure all avenues are being examined.
In conclusion, I believe that the various initiatives and actions outlined illustrate the extent to which both the Department and senior military management are actively and constructively engaged in transforming the Defence Forces and specifically to resolving this matter.
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
As Ceann Foirne of Óglaigh na hÉireann, I thank members of the committee for the invitation and opportunity to address them today on recent developments in the Irish Air Corps, our operations, challenges and strategic priorities. I am accompanied by general officer commanding the Air Corps, Brigadier General Rory O’Connor and assistant secretary Mr. Declan Carville, our head of HR. I want to directly address the current situation regarding military air traffic services, ATS, in the Air Corps, as both ATS and airspace management underpin the defence and security of national airspace control.
The Air Corps requires a 24-7 ability to provide military air traffic services to ensure the safe and sovereign control of military aircraft, and provide a trusted, co-ordinated link between the military airspace operated by the Air Corps, and civilian airspace controlled by the civilian aviation authorities. In practice, this supports high-profile events, as well as air support to Army, Naval Service and special operations forces. Air Corps assets are also play a vital role in national resilience operations, including climate event responses and on a daily basis in supporting the National Emergency Aeromedical Service and the Garda air support unit, both based in Baldonnel. While military ATS is a key enabler of today’s operations, its capability will be critical as the Air Corps fleet expands and as the Defence Forces enhances its capabilities in the air domain. From a strategic perspective Casement Aerodrome itself as the only secure military airfield within the State and therefore is a national strategic asset. As an island nation this asset ensures sovereign airspace control and contributes to the State’s overall air connectivity and resilience.
Turning to the challenges with ATS, the 2021 report of the ATC working group set out a series of recommendations of which a number of measures were adopted. However, despite extensive efforts, staffing challenges have persisted as a competitive commercial aviation market has targeted this highly specialised, highly trained stream within the Air Corps. For example there is an estimated shortage of 700 to 1,000 ATS personnel across Europe alone.
While I wish to acknowledge the significant uplift in the remuneration package for the Defence Forces in general over the past number of years, a disparity between the pay rates of highly specialised military personnel and their civilian equivalents remains. This disparity makes it extremely difficult to retain the services of such personnel, including our ATS personnel. These are not excuses. This is the reality of the environment the Defence Forces and indeed the wider public sector are operating in but the committee should be assured we continue to seek solutions to these challenges.
Significant positive measures are under way, including the extension of the pilot service commitment scheme to qualified ATS personnel; agreement to offer commission-from-the ranks for all qualified controllers; the introduction of a panel of qualified civilian controllers into a first line reserve in future. The introduction of a direct entry scheme for qualified civilian controllers will also be looked at. In the meantime, plans are in place to mitigate the current restrictions on flight operations.
Beyond ATS, I would like to highlight some of the other developments within the Air Corps. A programme of aircraft replacement is well underway to replace some of the aging aircraft within the fleet. This programme has seen new aircraft brought into service in recent years, with ongoing plans for additional new aircraft over the next five years, significantly enhancing the military capabilities of the Defence Forces in the air domain.
In the area of human resources within the Air Corps, we are advancing recruitment and training across all career streams from general service recruits, to NCO training, to direct entry aeronautical engineer officers, to specialised aircrew training and we continue to examine foreign training and education opportunities. Additionally, delivery on the infrastructure development plan is progressing, which will significantly enhance the facilities and capability across the aerodrome. This plan will comprise both the Casement Aerodrome masterplan and the Baldonnel airside masterplan.
As part of the Defence Forces transformation agenda, the Air Corps is actively engaged in reviewing structures, capabilities and staffing through our force design teams. This work is complemented by the establishment of a fleet replacement office that is actively engaged with the civilian-military capability development unit to advance future air domain capabilities.
In conclusion, the Defence Forces remain committed to serving the people of Ireland. The Air Corps continues to deliver high-value national services on a daily basis across a broad spectrum of operational activities. To maintain and grow the Air Corps operational capability, especially the retention of highly skilled personnel, we require sustained investment and the continued support of members.
I want to close by acknowledging the women and men of Óglaigh na hÉireann, whose professionalism, devotion to duty and commitment to the profession of arms is demonstrated every day. They continue to enable our transformation into a joint, agile and fit for purpose military force. My responsibility and that of the board of the Defence Forces is to provide them with the required tools, structures, and leadership to realise our vision.
I thank the committee for this opportunity. I look forward to its engagement and to working with it in the future.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Mulcahy. I will invite members to contribute and ask questions. I will give each member seven minutes for the opening round. I will be fairly strict on time. I have five speakers already, namely Deputy Callaghan, Senator Gallagher, Deputies Smith and Crowe and Senator Craughwell.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I welcome and thank the witnesses. I also acknowledge the continued investment that is going toward our Defence Forces. It is very welcome and long awaited. I like to see it is being very well invested by the Defence Forces and Air Corps. It is a particular honour for me as a former serving member of the Air Corps to see some familiar faces on the opposite side of the room today. My colleagues will probably focus on matters of air traffic control, and rightly so, but I will focus initially on recruitment and technical staff and the Air Corps maintenance programme.
Have apprenticeships yet been advertised this year?
Ms Clare Tiernan:
I thank the Deputy for her question. It is not an apprenticeship but we have a new programme, the air maintenance programme, which will be advertised very shortly. Until 2022, we had an apprenticeship programme. In the last two years, we had the trainee military aircraft system technician, TMAST, which is a technical training stream. That has now been established on a permanent basis with an aircraft maintenance technician certification, AMT. It is expected to be launched very shortly, with an expected intake of up to 28 personnel.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am a former apprentice myself. These trainees will not be apprentices. Is that correct?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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What qualification will they have at the end of their training?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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What will be the awarding body?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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That will be at level 7.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Very good. What will the pay and conditions be?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Will they complete their three-star training within the first six months and then go on to do their-----
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Is there a plan for the apprentice school in Baldonnel? What will happen to that? It is my understanding it has been operational since 1937 and there is a proud tradition of training apprentices in Baldonnel.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Okay, so it will not be advertised as an apprenticeship. Will there be an information campaign about that? I have spoken to constituents who are interested in joining the Air Corps or in having their children join as apprentices. Will it be advertised more? It will lead to confusion because some people may wonder whether they are going to become soldiers or aircraft maintenance technicians in the same way.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Of course.
Mr. Rory O'Connor:
I will just add to what Ms Tiernan has said. It was called the apprentice school when I joined in 1982 and it then changed the technical training school. We have moved away from that completely. The award is under the basis of the EASA licences. The school is approved through the Irish Aviation Authority and the certification is for EASA part-66 and part-147. The trainees get the civilian qualification, if one wants to look at it from that point of view, and, as Ms Tiernan mentioned, the TUD level 7. We are shifting our whole maintenance piece towards the European military ordnance requirements programme as well. This aligns with that European standard, no more than the civilian qualification is tied in with the EASA regulations as well.
We have a very active social media programme. When we come to launch the competition, there will be extensive engagement from strategic HR, the Defence Forces recruitment body. There is also very much a media campaign in relation to that.
The students still go through the four-year training but it has changed from the apprenticeship model. The TMAST was the transition piece but now the AMT, as Ms Tiernan said, is the way we are going to go because that is the programme that best suits our needs and requirements for the future.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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There will be 28 coming in the next batch, we hope.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Do we have enough maintenance staff? Do we need more?
Mr. Rory O'Connor:
With our current service and, again, no more than was mentioned and what we are talking about here for air traffic control, ATC, we are at just below 50% of our technician strength. We have an establishment of 322. We are just at 160 at this stage. It is a challenge for us to mitigate that. In terms of developing and ensuring that we are able to deliver the air capability, we have a contracted element coming in to provide technical services. We also bring aircraft away for maintenance.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We were talking about our service commitment scheme. There is one in place now for pilots and we are proposing one for ATC. Would there be any consideration, in the context of retention, to having that service commitment for technical staff as well?
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
That is a policy matter. Deputy Callaghan will have seen in this instance what the Air Corps was faced with. As the Chief of Staff said, an outside operator came in and, with effectively an open chequebook, has been seeking to poach our staff. Our staff are very highly skilled and very highly trained and it has caused a significant challenge. While this risk surfaced sometime towards the end of last year, it definitely materialised in the last few weeks. This is why we are involved and the Tánaiste has, on an exceptional basis, developed this and got Government approval for this scheme.
We are faced with this issue across a number of different services. We invest hugely in our Defence Forces and they are very highly skilled. We are faced with that issue in a number of other areas. It is something we will be looking at. A local bargaining process is being undertaken and some of those pinch points may be addressed in that. We are looking at that in conjunction with military management.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Local bargaining is probably-----
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Time is up, Deputy.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Okay, I will come back. I thank the Cathaoirleach.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses and the entire delegation. I thank them for their attendance. I concur with the Chief of Staff's sentiments at the outset in relation to the women and men of Óglaigh na hÉireann on the service and dedication they give to the State. We are all deeply indebted to them. I would be grateful if Mr. Mulcahy could pass on those sentiments.
I welcome the positives the witnesses outlined in both contributions. It is great to see that progress but, unfortunately, as they alluded to, there is much more to be done in that regard. We must strive to get to that point as quickly as we possibly can.
I might confine my contribution to just a number of questions, the first of which is for the Secretary General. The Commission on the Defence Forces made a recommendation on military attachés and the very disappointing lack of progress on its implementation to date. At a time of massive geopolitical instability, Ireland's access to key military, security and defence decision-makers in many troubled countries is very disappointing. What progress has been made on establishing a network of defence attachés, as recommended by the commission? When will it be in place? Is the Department fully supportive of the establishment of this vital network?
My second question is for the Chief of Staff. What benefits to defence, security and intelligence, not to mention the safety and security of our diplomats and citizens abroad, would result from the establishment of a defence attaché network like that which many other countries enjoy?
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
I will start on the recommendations of the Commission on the Defence Forces. When that report was published in 2022, there were 130 recommendations, 43 of which have been completed to date. The others are a work in progress. We do have a detailed implementation plan, which is being revised. The Tánaiste hopes to publish that in the near future. The establishment of a defence attaché network is one of those recommendations. There has been some work done to date. We have engaged with our military colleagues and the Department of foreign affairs. An attaché network can be set up as either civilian or military and that is being reviewed as well. In the meantime, all I can tell the committee is that the plan is there. We are planning to have all of the recommendations completed by 2028 and some of them will be completed well in advance of that. It is one of many priorities we have. It is being worked on.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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What is the timeframe? At the outset Ms McCrum was saying 2028.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms McCrum. What about the second question?
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
I welcome the comments of the Secretary General in regards to the timeframe for that. The benefits are huge. We engage with the defence attachés who are largely based in the UK. For embassies that are accredited here in Ireland, many of the attachés are based in London. They come over to Ireland and we meet them annually. We have a very good exchange of information and discussions on areas of common interest. In the current security environment, no country can provide for its own security entirely. Networks are hugely valuable to every state.
The committee may be aware we have recently enhanced our own intelligence capability. We now have an Irish intelligence military information service, which has been stood up in Defence Forces headquarters. That adds huge value to the security of the State. The service has a wide network of contacts across Europe and other partner nations. That enhances the force protection of our personnel when they are deployed on missions overseas and also the conduct of our operations on island and in our area of operations across the State in the air and the sea. The benefit is the more information we can share with partner nations, the more information we will receive in return and the greater we can increase the security not only of Defence Forces personnel deployed, but also of the citizens of Ireland.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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Are we behind the curve compared to other states?
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
We do not have an attaché as such. We have military advisers based in Brussels and New York. They have been hugely beneficial over the years in terms of our engagement at political and military levels in the headquarters of the European Union and in New York. We do not have attachés deployed around the world. We would look to target them to certain countries that would be of political and strategic interest to the State of Ireland. As the Secretary General rightly said, that would be done in consultation with the Department of foreign affairs and the Department of Defence.
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
On the other question asked about whether we were fully supportive of it, all of those recommendations have been agreed by the Government, so we are fully supportive of it and are working through it. We have had a defence attaché week recently, which the Defence Forces hosted and was very well attended. We have contact with that network, both on a civilian and military basis.
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
We have two resident attachés in Ireland, those being, from the UK and the US. We work very closely with them and have a number of bilateral arrangements with them. The benefit of having personnel one can engage with daily is that it allows for development and enhances our capabilities and, more importantly, our interoperability with partners.
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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Regarding our air domain, what is our current aircraft capacity? Where do we need to get to with numbers of aircraft in order to provide the optimum level of protection for our air domain?
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
I will start on this. I will not list all of the aircraft we have. We have invested in two C295 military aircraft. We have another one due this year that is specifically for military transport. A strategic reach aircraft has also been ordered and will be available in December. There are other projects being looked at through what is called a capability development plan. That is a top-down capability development programme that is headed up by a civilian but is managed by civil and military personnel. Those projects will run over a 12-year period. They will identify where we have to replace some of our ageing aircraft, as the Chief of State referenced, and where we have to invest in new types of capability as well.
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
I will answer in slightly different way. If I understood the Deputy's question correctly, he asked what types of capability the Defence Forces, including the air force of the future, needed to deliver on behalf of the State. The capabilities we need are strategic reach, as the Secretary General mentioned, and transport lift, which means fixed-wing and rotary-wing or helicopter capacity. We need an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance capability. In the future, we may need some form of more offensive capabilities. That is the broad spectrum of what we need to do. We also need training aircraft, both rotary-wing and fixed-wing. As the Secretary General mentioned, the future capability development plan will determine the specific platforms we need. We know some of those already. We have new maritime patrol aircraft, which are very well equipped in the intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance domain. They are also able to be used in a dual role as transport aircraft. Our current helicopter fleet is coming to the end of its life. We are purchasing four H145 helicopters to replace that fleet. In the future, a super-medium-type helicopter is in the Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces. That would add a different dimension, both for our Army and special forces, in the future to allow that interoperability as a joint force.
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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Where does unmanned drone technology fit in with our overall capability in this space?
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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Was there a procurement process last year for drone technology?
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
Drone technology is what we use. We have tactical-level drones that are used at the tactical level in Army units. Some of our engineer units have drones as well for use in search operations. We do not have any of the remote piloting systems the Deputy is talking about that would operate more off our coast.
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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We have none of those but they would be in the plan?
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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In terms of our drone capability now, which states are the world leaders in developing that and from whom are we purchasing what we have at the moment?
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
In terms of procurement from a policy perspective, we have initiated a new facility called government-to-government procurement, which means that we can fast-track purchasing. Normally, purchasing could take up to three years but with government-to-government procurement, we engage with different countries to see who can provide us. I am not sure where I am on some of the contractual scenarios, so I need to be careful about what I say in an open forum about-----
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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Would we have closed any deals with the likes of Israel, Iran or the United States for purchasing drone technology in the previous 12 months?
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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That is good to know.
I will move to the ATC issue and the targeting and enticing of skilled staff from our Defence Forces to a private operator. Our party policy is that we would love to see an examination of whether the Coast Guard could be operated through our Defence Forces. I am not asking for a comment on that specifically but could the witnesses comment in some way? Are there potential efficiencies of service that would happen if our Coast Guard, Garda helicopter operations and Defence Forces were all operating out of the same Defence Forces facilities? Is there the potential for an improved or more efficient service if that were the case?
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
I will bring the GOC in on this in a second but from a policy perspective, the supports the Defence Forces provide to the HSE and to An Garda Síochána are through memorandums of understanding, which are carefully worked out and negotiated. With the Garda air support unit, An Garda Síochána owns the aircraft and we operate it. There are many considerations there. It is not just the flying or the pilots, but maintenance and how that is managed. Synergy could well be provided but the costs and the contracts would have to be carefully managed in that regard as well. It is not just the procurement of the equipment itself, but its maintenance and support over its life span.
I will bring in the GOC on that because three of the capabilities the Deputy is talking about are in the rotary-wing space, so I will ask him for his views on that.
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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I am not saying that, by the way.
Mr. Rory O'Connor:
Our primary role is the defence of the State. We are the Defence Forces. We have other aid to civil authority and civil power roles as well. While there are some synergies, it is not always as clear. There may be something in operating out of the same facility, as the Deputy mentioned in his question.
My job is that I am the air component commander for this State. I have responsibility for the 450,000 sq. km of airspace over Ireland and its maritime domain, so that is the priority piece. At some stage in the future, yes that service may be there but as we move forward with the establishment of an air force, developing on the Commission on the Defence Forces piece that has already been mentioned, that is going to be the priority for us in terms of developing capabilities on both the manned and uncrewed side of that piece to ensure the defence of Ireland. As everyone is well aware, the world has changed in the past couple of years and that is the priority piece. What may lay out in the future is speculation at this stage.
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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I thank the Chair.
Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh na finnéithe chuig an gcruinniú seo. I have a couple of questions. I am not sure if they are security-sensitive. The big thing is the air traffic controllers. Everyone is talking about it. What is the current state of play with that? The witnesses might be more comfortable giving us a written reply on it but how are we fixed regarding the air traffic controllers? Are there any other services at critical or worrying level in relation to the matter before us today?
On the new service commitment scheme, do the witnesses think it is fit for purpose? Is it ambitious enough? How many controllers does it include? Does it exclude anyone? The big question we are all asking is do they think it is going to deliver? Will it work? Does it exclude any of those currently in service? If so, there will be all sorts of problems.
A direct entry scheme will be advertised for qualified civilian controllers. It would be helpful to know the terms or conditions of that at some stage. How will the Defence Forces attract qualified and experienced controllers? The civilian ATC organisation and all the evidence point to the fact that civilian controller conditions are far more attractive. I am conscious there was mention in one of the opening statements that the disparity between the pay rates of highly specialised military personnel and their civilian equivalents remains. Will the witnesses give a sense of how much that is in percentage or money terms? It is quite substantial, I believe.
My next question is about the pension scheme. Are the witnesses supportive of the occupational supplementary pension at normal retirement age for Defence Forces members of the single public service pension scheme? I believe affects up to 60% of all Defence Forces personnel. I think it was described by the former Chief of Staff as a catalyst for pushing Defence Forces personnel to leave. What measures do the Department and military leadership intend to pursue to secure the future of this ever-increasing cohort of military personnel? Will they commit to seeking a review of the current policy on that? That is a fair number of questions.
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
I will attempt to work my way through them and I may hand over to the Chief of Staff at some point.
On the Air Corps issue and what we have highlighted today, this particular risk was identified by the GOC in relation to the potential for an operator to open on our doorstep, effectively, in Baldonnel, at Weston and there was potential for it to poach our staff. That risk did materialise and certainly job offers have been made. That is the position in which we find ourselves. While several actions had been taken, like addressing this issue through cadets and various other things as the Chief of Staff has outlined, this particular one came to a very acute level in May of this year. The Tánaiste, working with our Defence Forces colleagues and the Air Corps, looked at this commitment scheme which is in place for the pilots and it was decided it could potentially be extended to the air traffic controllers. That was an exceptional item because it initially had been thought we would be able to bring it through the local bargaining process, but because of the acute nature of the challenge we were not able to do that. As to whether that scheme is fit for purpose, the current position - and the Chief of Staff will probably talk more about this - is we have approached personnel to see if it is satisfactory and if they would consider staying. People love the Defence Forces and in terms of their service they are very willing to stay but when there is an open chequebook it does make it challenging.
On the salaries, you are probably talking about a change. It depends. We are going from something where there is a pay band of about €58,000 to €126,000 to one where with the service commitment scheme it will change it from €85,000 up to €140,000. That is quite a significant jump, but there are terms and conditions that surround that and they are being worked through at the moment. Does it include everyone? One of the significant policies we have made only in the coming weeks with the agreement of the Chief of Staff and the Air Corps is that the structure of it would change from an enlisted and officer structure to an all-officer structure. That is what is being worked through at the moment. We have engaged with our representative associations on that and my understanding is they are supportive of this. I am not sure whether the Chief of Staff wants to add anything more and then I can come back to the pension scheme.
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
I thank the Deputy for the questions. I am speaking to the committee and I am also speaking to our air traffic service personnel who I am sure are listening in this evening as well. Like I said, I assure people we are working at this. There is a huge amount of work going on in the background at the Department level, Defence Forces headquarters level and certainly at Air Corps headquarters level. I thank the Tánaiste as well for the significant work he had done to get this agreement that we extend the existing pilots' scheme and we are working to ensure we can bring as many personnel as possible within the framework of that scheme and we are working every angle, to put it that way, to make that happen. As the Secretary General rightly said we are moving by agreement to an all-officer air traffic service model. The establishment of that will increase over time as move through the various levels of ambition up to level of ambition 2. When you couple the pay allocated for an officer with the associated professional pay and then a service commitment scheme, it will bring us by and large in line with what is being offered for similar services on the island. It does not quite match it, to be honest, but it comes very close and I go back to the point made at the very start about the proud service of the men and women of the Defence Forces and the Air Corps in particular. They take pride in being members of a profession of arms and that is a huge thing. That is why the work the Tánaiste has led and the Department and ourselves are driving forward is to bring a favourable scheme and to bring as many of our personnel within that scheme. It is my hope that will get us back operational in a timely manner.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agaibh. I will leave it at that if that is okay. If there are any outstanding questions they may be addressed within other replies.
I call Senator Craughwell.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. The Secretary General, the Chief of Staff, the GOC and other staff are welcome here. I ask the Secretary General that we start by being honest with one another. The policies that have been followed have been a disaster for the aviation services in our Defence Forces. We have lost search and rescue, we have a private operator providing a jet at Dublin Airport for patients every night and then there is the air traffic control issue. In 2017, before Ms McCrum ever arrived at the Department, it was aware there was a problem with air traffic control. In 2021, her Department became acutely aware. I am sorry, it was in May 2019 her Department was aware. There were two pay commissions. Then in 2021 a joint working group identified a crisis coming. Ms McCrum, by then Secretary General, wrote to the Secretary General of the Department of Transport in March 2021 identifying air traffic control as a reason the Air Corps could not have SAR. There was, therefore, nothing new in this. The 2021 study carried out jointly by the Department of Defence and the Air Corps required the Department to advise the Minister of the outcome. Was the Minister advised in 2021 that there was an impending crisis in the Air Corps?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Senator Craughwell, I remind you the report I think you are referring to is an unpublished report, so neither the secretariat or other members would have had sight of it.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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It is there.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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If you could just phrase your questions-----
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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The question is there now. It needs to be answered.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
I thank Senator Craughwell very much. To go back to 2021, this was an internal report, as the Chair has said. It is not a published report. It was produced as a result of the reduction in service in 2016. It was a joint report. It was done by both the civil and the military sides and was returned to the project sponsors somewhere around December 2021. In February 2022 we had the Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces, which I spoke of earlier. That, as the Senator knows, is a comprehensive report with 130 recommendations. We had that report two months later. Many of the actions that were in the internal report were subsumed into the Commission on the Defence Forces and we are working through those recommendations at this point in time.
The specific action was taken on the cadet entry scheme and the commissioning from the ranks but in an overall context, if you look at all the positives I mentioned earlier for Defence Forces personnel they would have affected the Air Corps as well. I mean the starting salaries, the increase in recruitment age, the mandatory retirement age-----
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I am sorry, I do not want to interrupt the Secretary General unnecessarily but I want to know if the Minister was informed as far back as 2022.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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But the Secretary General wrote to Ken Spratt in March 2021. I have the letter here. She identified air traffic control as an impediment to SAR for the Air Corps.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Does the Secretary General want me to read her own letter?
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
I know I wrote that letter and I have it very much in my file. What I would say is that would have been taking on additional capability and perhaps at that point in time there was not the capacity to do that. As the Senator knows, we had decided that if the Air Corps was in a position to take on that capability there was an option to do that and that remains the situation.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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The Secretary General expressed doubt herself. She referred to the fact that air traffic control would be problem.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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If I can intervene, Senator, I want to confirm whether that letter is in the public domain.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Absolutely. I acquired the letter through freedom of information and I published it when I got it, so it is in the public domain.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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That is not the point. I am asking the Secretary General because she knew there was a problem coming.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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The Secretary General knew there was a problem. That was March 2021. Then in December 2021 she was aware of the fact the joint working group saw a crisis coming and she was required under terms of reference to inform the Minister. Did she inform the Minister?
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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The Secretary General warned it was coming.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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When we talk about risk - and maybe the Secretary General will not be able to answer this and the GOC will - there is a requirement with respect to the management of our airspace. There is a military-civilian airspace. Has there been engagement between the Department and the Irish Aviation Authority or AirNav Ireland, as I think it now is? Has it been informed of the situation?
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Is there a problem with respect to Bristow being located now within military airspace? Is that problem being dealt with? Where are we with that?
Mr. Rory O'Connor:
I thank the Secretary General. The airspace within which we operate around Baldonnel is quite a complex one with mountains to the south, Dublin Airport and obviously Weston there. When we are not active in Baldonnel there is a restriction in terms of what airspace is affecting, so if we are not operating on a weekend, aircraft will come close to Baldonnel. There is restricted airspace around that purely for the Garda air support unit. We have been in contact with AirNav Ireland and the IAA about this.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I will make a last point because my time is running out. There was mention of the purchase of four helicopters. The Garda went to public tender for its helicopters and bought them at about €12.5 million to €16 million. The Defence Forces did not go to public tender and purchased them directly. My understanding is they are costing €28 million each. Where is the policy decision there? What about protecting the public funds - taxpayers' money?
Mr. Rory O'Connor:
I will come in again. These are a military-spec helicopter. There is a shift as we move towards an air force, for the whole Defence Forces piece, where warfighting becomes part of our lexicon now. The aircraft are military-specced aircraft and will be different to the civilian version in relation to that. As regards the exact cost, I do not have that in front of me.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I am wondering should it not have gone to tender, in the view of the witnesses.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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The Secretary General said in March 2021 that if the Department was to buy helicopters for SAR it would be through public procurement tender which would take a long period of time. Despite this it went and bought four helicopters without a tender.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Taxpayers' money has not changed.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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It is taxpayers' money the Department is spending.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat, a Sheanadóir. I allowed you a bit of extra time because of the two interventions I made.
We move to Senator Clonan.
Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach. The witnesses are all very welcome. I congratulate the Chief of Staff on his recent appointment. I see Colonel Owen McNally is also here. He is my former comhairleoir and I assure him that despite the obvious deterioration in age and eyesight my shoes are still polished and I have water in my water bottle still.
We convened this evening to talk about what appears to us from the distance we are at to be a crisis in the Air Corps. I think back to the time of my service when we had jet aircraft and I imagine a larger fleet of both fixed-wing and rotary aircraft and I am concerned and puzzled about how we got to this point. I think of my classmates who served in the Air Corps in search and rescue and in other roles, many of whom now fly for Aer Lingus, Ryanair and others, so I understand the retention issues. I am also conscious of people who were in my senior class, for example Gavin Foynes and Mick Baker, who made the ultimate sacrifice in public service in search and rescue, in training and so on. The culture of the organisation is very strong but something has clearly happened over the last number of decades. My subjective view comes from the distance I am at, because I have had very little contact with the organisation in the last number of years, but I imagine part of it is due to the peace dividend flowing from the Good Friday Agreement and the broader peace dividend that was enjoyed throughout Europe with the collapse of the Berlin Wall and the unwinding of the Soviet Union. As the Secretary General says, things have now changed.
I take heart from the recommendations of the Commission on the Defence Forces. Level of ambition 2 is probably not ambitious enough. I have written about this in the media but also in peer-reviewed papers that we should go to the most ambitious level to address the issues. It is a kind of general question I will address to the GOC and maybe the Chief of Staff will have thoughts on it. Is there something about Irish society that perhaps we are not sufficiently well-informed about what the Defence Forces do, their status and role in society and how important they are? Is there something we can do as a committee? Might the witnesses have an ask of us as a committee? The majority of committee members are members of Government parties, attend their parliamentary party meetings every week and have a direct line to key decision-makers.
We have veterans in that position as well. If the witnesses had a key ask of the committee in terms of supporting them in the next steps, what would the top three asks be?
Planning for 30 years was mentioned. I am optimistic and hopeful that the current crisis that confronts us will eventually be overcome. That is in the immediate to medium term. However, in the area of long-term planning, do they have an all-island concept for our air domain? Is some sort of all-Ireland iteration seen for the future? We have six counties in NATO, so the expectations for collective security will be very high. I do not know. I imagine some if not all of those counties may remain in NATO. Do the Defence Forces plan with that in mind? Is that something carried out in conjunction with the Department, or is it an entirely military function, something taking place in the Department with our European colleagues or our colleagues across the water? For example, has anyone published a paper on it in the Defence Forces Review? I am curious about that.
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
I am sure Colonel McNally is quaking in his boots behind me remembering those days. The Senator asked about a number of policy matters. I will pass the questions on the future all-island policy and approach to the Secretary General. As the Senator knows, there is an office in the Department of the Taoiseach looking at that matter. I have not yet sat in on any of the national security committees in my role, but that is perhaps something that will be discussed in the future. I do not know. I will ask the GOC to come in on the air domain in a second. With regard to the committee's generous offer, I said in my opening statement that the continued level of political support is greatly appreciated and keenly felt in the Defence Forces. The support we get in public speeches and the continued support towards level of ambition 2 is also keenly felt among all of our personnel.
With regard to our asks, my offer to the committee is for it come and see what we do. I may speak to the Chair about that. It may be for the committee to see some of the key exercises we hold before our troops go overseas or some of the operational readiness exercises that we conduct. We could host a meeting of the committee in a military installation, and it might have an opportunity to meet some of our personnel to see the work they do.
The Senator is right about how we tell the people of Ireland what we do. We have a strong media team and campaign. We are on every platform. We post the daily work we do. We have monthly updates and bulletins, so we are trying to show people what is going on behind the barracks walls. A key responsibility for me as Chief of Staff is to make sure that not only are we communicating to our personnel inside the Defence Forces, but also at the political and civil levels. I have a number of engagements where I go out to speak about what the Defence Forces do. The biggest support we can get is the committee's continued support for the funding towards level of ambition 2. It is an ambitious timeline. The Secretary General rightly spoke about the work and progress to date on the Commission on the Defence Forces. We have 130 recommendations. We have achieved 43 of those already, with 16 more to conclude by the end of this year, which is well above 45% of it. That is moving towards level of ambition 2 at a significant pace. The ones that are coming are more long term with regard to procurement capabilities, etc. The support this defence and security committee provides is key in that regard. The Tánaiste is hugely supportive of the Defence Forces and the move towards level of ambition 3. The Senator will have heard him say on many occasions that there is awareness of the security issues Ireland is facing now with our place in Europe. We are no longer an island off an island. We are fully integrated into the European architecture and the threats that Europe faces and those on the wider global stage. The fact that this committee is asking questions about how seriously defence is being taken is hugely empowering for us as an organisation and will ensure the funds we need will be realised for our Defence Forces and we can transform and turn into a fit-for-purpose military force.
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
I will augment what the Chief of Staff has said. With regard to playing our part, what we have tried to do over the past four years is to get ourselves in a position where we can stand up capabilities and invest in that particular capability. Two of the announcements made recently by the Tánaiste with regard to radar and subsea sonar capability are significant. The radar will be the biggest single investment in defence in the history of the State. That will provide us with capability that has not been there heretofore. It is hugely important for us. On the all-island side the national security strategy is being developed and the Taoiseach has stood up this new national security committee internally as well, which is all contributing to discussions on security and defence.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome all of the witnesses. My first question is about the 2013 pension scheme that was introduced. I am on the justice committee, and we have had the Garda Commissioner before us. We have had the GRA in and it suggested that recruitment and retention in particular are a big problem, and this pension set-up is a big part of it. Gardaí are probably paid a little better than the members of PDFORRA. How much of an issue is that for retention and recruitment into the Defence Forces, particularly at enlisted ranks?
My second question relates to the air traffic controller situation. This is the third time since 2010 we have had an issue with air traffic control in Baldonnel. The Garda Commissioner was in a number of weeks ago and I questioned him about the scourge of scramblers and so on in the city. He said the Garda helicopter was a big part of his weaponry to deal with that. Obviously, if the air traffic control is only operating for a limited number of hours daily, that has an impact on policing in the city as well. What lessons have we learned and how can we resolve this issue on a permanent basis in order that we do not have to keep coming back to this problem, given that it has manifested three times since 2010?
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
Deputy Seán Crowe also asked about the 2013 pension scheme. We have four pension schemes currently applicable in the Defence Forces. There are various historic issues, and the most recent one is the 2013 pension scheme. The Deputy is correct that it applies to all uniformed services such as An Garda and firefighters. It also applies to all public servants and civil servants. That was a Government decision made at that time during a period of austerity, but also mindful of the increasing challenges that would face the State with an ageing population. That policy matter is not one for us to resolve. There are challenges being made by various representative associations like the GRA. I know PDFORRA and RACO have made representations on that as well, but that policy matter lies with our colleagues in the Department of public expenditure and it is a Government policy. I turn to the supplementary pension. We have extended the age of retirement to 62. There is still a gap there. It has shortened, but it has been amended by that extension in age.
On salary and pay rates, it is important to recognise that military service allowance, which is paid to Defence Forces members for the exigencies of military service, is pensionable. That is a big plus side. In An Garda you may get overtime but that is not pensionable on the mandatory retirement age. The changes in salary over the past years have had a positive effect in closing that gap.
On resolving the issue to which the Deputy referred, this is, as he said, the third time it has happened. One of the decisions by Government with regard to in relation to introducing the commitment scheme was to have a peer review of what other militaries do and how they operate their services.
This will be a civil military review and we are developing the terms of reference for it.
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
I will add a bit on the pensions. I have been on the record, as has the previous Chief of Staff, advocating to overcome the challenges. As the Secretary General has said, the mandatory retirement age has increased to 62 for all serving members of the Defence Forces. This is very positive and gives a level of certainty to personnel, in that they know they can have a full career in the Defence Forces and understand their entitlements in that regard. There is a gap between the age of 62 and when the pension kicks in at 66. This is a priority for me as Chief of Staff, and I will work with the Minister and the Secretary General in this regard, as did my predecessor. We will work to see whether there is something we can do. Perhaps there is something at uniformed services level. It is a constraint and it has been highlighted in surveys as being a reason people retire. If we can overcome that, it will be a significant retention enabler for Defence Forces personnel.
Deputy Brabazon asked about air traffic control and the impact on Garda operations. Yes, there has been an impact. We have restricted our hours of operation in Baldonnel. I do not want to go into the specifics for operational reasons but we have put a number of mitigating measures in place, in close co-operation between Air Corps headquarters and Garda headquarters at that level, for when the service is not available. At present, the Garda air support unit operates from different location. We have plans in place to extend the hours of operations in the immediate future. This is part of the engagement with some State bodies to which the Secretary General alluded earlier. We will be enhancing the availability of the operational running of the service from Baldonnel in future.
Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses. I concur with others that it is welcome to see the commitments, including on investment for the forthcoming year. It is certainly very necessary and welcome. The Secretary General stated earlier that there is a growing shortage of air traffic controllers globally. Will she explain why this is the case? Obviously, it is an onerous and stressful job, or it can be. Is that the reason? Is there now a larger number of flights or greater complexity?
Mr. Rory O'Connor:
For any very skilled profession, there will always be a high demand. It is natural, if we look around the world, that as a small island we feed into bigger areas, whether it is Europe or out to the Middle East. People will always move to where the money is. AirNav Ireland has engaged to try to build up but, given the nature of the job, we cannot just turn people into air traffic controllers. Everything has to be safety-managed. People have to be developed and trained. Depending on where people are operating, specific endorsements are also required. It is a very specific skill set and we feed into it.
Overall air traffic has increased post Covid. We are now looking at 600,000-plus flights into Irish airports alone, and 500,000 flights cross through Irish airspace annually. Given our geographical nature, we are very much positioned at a crossing point in Europe. It is very much about demand. Covid played a factor as we tried to build up capability but it is a worldwide issue in that people move around.
Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Ms McCrum said there is a trusted, co-ordinated link between military airspace operated by the Air Corps and civilian aerospace controlled by the civilian aviation authorities. I presume they have comparable qualifications that are interchangeable and that this is why they are in such high demand.
Mr. Rory O'Connor:
Yes, we train to a standard. Even our technicians are trained to a civil standard and they are benchmarked against that. Obviously, for military controllers, there is a specific element of training. There is conversion in that regard. If a basic level of training is done, it makes it easy for people to move.
Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Can somebody leave the Air Corps and go to civil aviation without additional training?
Mr. Rory O'Connor:
It depends on their qualifications. Even if the most qualified controllers from Dublin Airport comes along, they still have to go through a period of training to get an endorsement to operate in Baldonnel, given the nature of our airspace. People cannot just walk from one control organisation into another. An element of training is always required in that regard. There is a transfer of the skill set.
Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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Are those who left and who may wish to come back in the future allowed to do so? For the record, no one has been on to me about it.
Mr. Rory O'Connor:
Yes. Since Covid, and certainly since the Defence Forces have changed with the appointment of strategic HR, re-enlistment has been very much front and centre. We have had some people come back into various streams. This is always there and it is encouraged. From an organisational point of view, if people have gone out, learned and developed skills and come back in, what they bring back to the organisation is very welcome.
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
To build on Mr. O'Connor's point, we also have an opportunity to bring in Reserve personnel. These may be former members of the Defence Forces who are now working for AirNav Ireland or Dublin Airport, if they have the time to spare. One of the recommendations in the report of the Commission on the Defence Forces is that we develop an air force reserve, which we do not have at present. That is something we will look at in future. We have done some canvassing and there are former members who would like to come back in a Reserve capacity and add that capability. That is another avenue. As Mr. O'Connor rightly said, they would come in, undergo some training and then be available to add value, even in the planning of air operations. It would be great to have personnel coming back in. It would be a great enabler.
Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. O'Connor and Mr. Mulcahy. Senator Clonan asked about the all-island nature and those questions have been answered. With regard to collaboration in emergencies with other European and non-European jurisdictions, partners and nearest neighbours, what protocols are in place?
Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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No, in terms of collaboration regarding aircraft or if there is an emergency, for example.
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade co-ordinates overflights across Ireland. I mentioned State events and the EU Presidency is an example. If Baldonnel airbase is used, there will be co-ordination between Baldonnel and the air forces or civil aviation authorities of various member states.
Seán Kyne (Fine Gael)
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If there was an emergency such as an accident, could we reach out to France or the United Kingdom? How does it work?
Mr. Rory O'Connor:
If an accident happens, an investigation is carried out by the air accident investigation unit in the Department of Transport. The Defence Forces will always respond to any crisis that may arise in that regard, if it is deemed appropriate. From our point of view, helicopter assistance with transferring patients is something we have done in the past. It depends on the nature of the incident.
Eamon Scanlon (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I thank everybody for their presentations. This is a very interesting discussion. I understand the issue with air traffic controllers. We can see that the reason for it is that the salary, at €41,500, is one people could get on a building site, quite honestly. The Secretary General mentioned the pension. Unfortunately, people do not think about pensions until they are in their 50s or 60s, when it is too late. That can happen. When do the witnesses hope the radar infrastructure might be in place? Does the current system allow flights to land at night?
Bristow was mentioned earlier and I understand it has a fixed-wing plane in Baldonnel. It won the contract for search and rescue for the entire country. Has it based a search and rescue helicopter in Baldonnel?
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
I will take Deputy Scanlon's first questions.
On the salaries, the €41,000 I mentioned is the very basic salary you get if you come into the Defence Forces. That is what you get after training without any leaving certificate or anything. That is at the very basic level. Generally you would get allowances on top of that, and in fact the averages would show the average is around €47,000.
Regarding the salaries for ATC, they are at a completely different level. It might be helpful, as I think it is important for the committee to be informed, if we provided members with some details of the range of salaries at each of the levels and the range of benefits, because there is a lot there. That, with the camaraderie and the commitment to service, all combine to make somebody's full package. We will send that to the Deputy, if that is all right.
Eamon Scanlon (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. I thank Ms McCrum.
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
In regard to the radar infrastructure, I will hand over to the Chief of Staff in a minute. The procurement of new radar is something that is going through a procurement process at the moment. We hope to conclude this, and the Tánaiste is expecting us to conclude this, by the end of 2025 with the commencement of the introduction of some of this equipment beginning in 2026 and completing in 2028.
I think the Deputy asked about flights landing at night-time. The GOC might take that one. I will pass it on.
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
I will start on the radar project and, as the Secretary General said there, it will be a hugely significant project for the Defence Forces, the Air Corps and air force of the future but for Ireland as well. It will allow us to see, as people in this committee know all too well, what is happening in our airspace. Every civilian aircraft is required to use a transponder but there are other actors operating in our sovereign airspace who do not always have their transponders on. As a sovereign nation, it would be fantastic when that capability is operational. As the Secretary General said, it is hoped we will see the initial delivery of that equipment starting in 2026 and building out to 2028.
We talk about radar but it comprises a myriad of systems. It is the physical equipment and the sensors themselves, the people who operate them, the headquarters facility they will operate from and, most importantly, the infrastructure that is in place to allow us to monitor and respond to those. In the future, it will also include an enabling ground-based air defence system. This will allow us, if there are actors operating in our airspace, to have some form of deterrence there as well. That is part of our level of ambition that is coming in the future. That is the radar project itself.
The Deputy mentioned the fixed-wing aircraft and the SAR contract. It is my understanding that those helicopters and that aircraft will not be operating out of Baldonnel. The only fixed-wing aircraft that will operate out of Baldonnel will be the new GASU fixed-wing aircraft that An Garda Síochána will procure. That is a twin-engine Otter aircraft, and as the GOC alluded to himself, that will be operated by Defence Forces personnel but we will not be operating any coastguard fixed-wing aircraft out of Baldonnel.
Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming here this evening and making themselves available to answer all these questions. It has certainly been very enlightening for me with respect to all the procedures and the many questions we have had over the past number of weeks.
Coming back to the shortfall in air traffic controllers, I know my colleague Senator Kyne raised this as well. It was mentioned that, across the EU, it is a number of about 700. I am also aware that the US also has a shortfall of air traffic controllers. This seems to be a global issue. It was mentioned that it was a post-Covid situation. Is the fact that, post Covid, the aviation industry recovered much more quickly than people anticipated something that has impacted air traffic controllers but has also impacted demand for pilots and other sectors of aviation? Is it an across-the-board aviation issue?
Mr. Rory O'Connor:
Yes. The whole aviation industry has accelerated in growth post Covid. A lot of airlines would have used it as a way to retire off some older people, if I can use that phrase. No one was expecting it to grow as quickly as it did. On the pilot training piece, a lot of the airlines found they did not have the pilots and they were bringing back pilots to build up their business in response to that. That affects maintenance and technicians. Air traffic control is affected at the moment. As the Deputy is probably well aware, the aviation industry in Ireland is quite a significant piece of the economy, with over 50 leasing companies in Ireland. Some 10,000 aircraft are owned by those leasing companies. Everywhere that reaches, air travel has been impacted as a result. There is a supply and demand piece, I suppose. I will put it like that.
Training is a significant overhead in terms of time, and because of the way it is monitored as a safety business, we have to be very careful about how we bring people online. You cannot bring people online without due training and qualifications. That impacts technicians and pilots, and it also impacts air traffic control and everything else involved around aviation.
Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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Coming to the training that was mentioned, what is the minimum requirement for people to train to become an air traffic controller? It is a very stressful job. How long does it take to qualify? The different ratings and certifications were mentioned earlier. I assume this applies to every airfield, different zones and so on. How often would they have to be updated and maintained? I am trying to get a feeling for how it works, how people get trained and how they can move from one area to another.
Mr. Rory O'Connor:
I will speak from the Irish Air Corps' perspective, as I would not be fully up to speed on the civilian side of the house. We now have an air traffic control cadet scheme in place, and there is a minimum level of qualifications. I do not have them in front of me here. With all of these specialisations, it is the additional testing we do, such as psychometric or FEAST testing, as it is called in the case of the ATC, that determines to what extent someone is going to pass the training in that regard. They do a period of training at the cadet school in the Curragh. They will go away then to do their phase 1 training, which is an external school. It is about seven months away in Spain. At the moment, we have some cadets down there. They will come back then and do about a year of on-the-job training to issue a tower rating. We currently have three individuals due back this month. They will finish their training around this time next year, and they will be commissioned as officers in air traffic control. That is what we call the basic tower, which is that visual piece around an airfield.
At some point after that they will go on a radar course, and that will allow them to operate radar and guide aircraft in bad weather. Then, with regard to capabilities, you have a controller who is able to do the tower and the radar and, from our point of view, is able to do that supervisory piece. Those individuals undergo annual medical requirements and regular refresher training. The fact that you are employed in that role means you are keeping current with regard to it. If somebody steps away for various reasons, they have to go through a period of revalidation and recertification before they are able to go back into the tower and operate that. We work quite closely with our civil colleagues on that as well because there is a lot of civil-military co-ordination required there.
Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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In a more general question, I would have thought that working out of Dublin Weston Airport or Casement Aerodrome - maybe I made an assumption - would be a little less stressful than working out of Dublin Airport given the volumes, or maybe even in Shannon Airport, where you are trying to co-ordinate everything coming across the Atlantic.
Mr. Rory O'Connor:
There are different levels of qualifications you can have to be a controller. There is a volume piece but there is also a variety piece. In Baldonnel, we will have large aircraft, jet aircraft, helicopters and civilian aircraft transiting. That makes it quick a complex piece. In Dublin Airport, you are looking at what we call line traffic. It is commercial traffic coming in at set speeds. I am not saying it makes it easier. In case some civilian air traffic controllers have a go at me. It is a different concept. With regard to someone who is qualified in Dublin to come work in Baldonnel, while they have all the qualifications, there is a training piece required to allow them operate in what is effectively a different environment they are not used to.
Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I have a final question if we have enough time. As we do not have a fully manned ATC in Baldonnel all the time at the moment, who ensures that airspace is not breached?
Mr. Rory O'Connor:
Basically, if the airfield is closed, it is what we call an uncontrolled airfield. We have a restricted airspace piece centred on Baldonnel that is tied in with Garda air support operations. That is published by the Irish Aviation Authority. Everyone who flies is aware of that restricted airspace.
There are restricted airspaces at various locations around Ireland. Aircraft are only allowed in there for certain purposes and they are sometimes not allowed to go in at all. Otherwise, if the airfield is closed, whether for bad weather or any other reason, it is free airspace, to use that phrase loosely. If one airfield is closed for a particular reason, the chances are other airfields in that area will be affected as well.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Senator Wilson has the next slot, after which I will ask him to take the Chair for a short period.
Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I join my colleagues in welcoming the Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces, the GOC of the Air Corps, the Secretary General and the other witnesses. I thank them for their contributions. I congratulate the Chief of Staff on his recent elevation to that role. His appointment has gone down very well with his colleagues, from the Army privates all the way up. I wish him well in the years ahead.
My first question is for the Secretary General. In response to my colleague Senator Gallagher asking about military attaché appointments, Ms McCrum said progress has been made and she hopes to have the matter concluded between this year and next year. She went on to say, if I heard her correctly, that military attachés can be either military or non-military personnel. Will she clarify what she meant by that?
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
There are civil attachés in London, for example, who are attached to our embassy there. Off the top of my head, there are civil attachés involved in social protection, as another example. There is a facility for that. We are primarily working on the military attachés. As I said, it is a recommendation that has been agreed by the Government. In fact, it was not specified in the recommendations of the Commission on the Defence Forces, if I remember correctly, but it is one we are working through. We have had initial engagement on it and we will progress it, I hope, in the next 12 months.
Diarmuid Wilson (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms McCrum. I read an article earlier today on thejournal.ie by Niall O'Connor, who seems to have been well informed about what would be said at this meeting. I congratulate him on that. The following statement in his article aligns with what has been outlined by the Secretary General and her colleagues: "The military also plans to introduce a direct entry scheme for qualified civilian controllers to join the Defence Forces." My understanding is that this mechanism has been used in the past. If it was used in the past, why was it necessary to introduce it as a new measure? Why was it not used all along if we are having difficulties with recruitment?
Mr. Rory O'Connor:
Direct entry has been used in the past. Given the shortages we are seeing, as discussed earlier, the question is how direct entry might work, and work out, for us. It does not mean that because there is such a demand for controllers, we will not get people coming in. They may be foreign military personnel who have retired and are, I will not say looking for an easy life, but they are looking for a different focus. They may be people who have come home having previously emigrated.
We must be very careful regarding the qualifications they bring with them. There needs to be an assessment done and possibly training. Across all three services in the military, we train our personnel very well and to a very standard. Unfortunately, we have found in the past that not everyone coming in meets our standard. From my point of view, which is the aviation aspect, safety is paramount.
It is quite a number of years since we used that mechanism. Certainly, we must ensure the right standards are there for Ireland Inc., as they are operating in our security environment. AirNav Ireland is the primary resource for training those personnel. This whole process is not something we can turn on or off. We are looking at a renewed vigour approach. As mentioned earlier, the new establishment in terms of going for the all-officer model will make the role more attractive.
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
We need to add as much resilience as we can into all our streams, not just air traffic services. The direct-entry stream is something we will look at across a myriad of our specialist areas. We are going out to the technological universities and advertising a life in the Defence Forces for engineers. We are saying we can upskill them to become engine room artificers on a ship or military engineers in an Army engineering company. We absolutely will look at direct entry in the future. As the GOC rightly said, if we can take in five direct-entry personnel every year in line with our air traffic control cadetship and other retention initiatives, we will build up the service much more quickly. We will look at every avenue possible along with our colleagues in the Department.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Leas-Chathaoirleach to take the Chair for the second round. Only Senator Craughwell has indicated so far, but the Leas-Chathaoirleach will take any other indications. Members will have five minutes each in this round.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I will put all my questions and then ask the witnesses to respond. First, we were aware of an impending crisis back in 2021 and it became an actual crisis in October 2024. When was the Minister informed of the crisis? Why has it taken until June 2025 to deal with it?
On specialist pay, all air traffic controllers are to be commissioned. I understand grade 6 pay, or tech pay 6, is not available to officers. By commissioning air traffic controllers, will their terms and conditions be made worse? Given the level of crisis we are facing, I need to know today how many people have had an offer made to them at this stage under the service commitment scheme.
We will have primary radar shortly. Who will operate it if we do not have the air traffic control personnel we need?
I am interested in the overall infrastructure at Baldonnel. How old is the air traffic control tower and when was it commissioned? Are there hangars there for the two new aircraft that are coming and, if not, will they be in place on time?
I asked a lot of questions but I have only five minutes to get them answered.
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
I will work through the questions as best as I can. I might then hand over to my colleagues.
In terms of the issue we have been discussing this evening, we have a comprehensive risk register. Risks are anticipated but, fortunately, as I said, many of them do not crystallise. This particular risk did crystallise during 2024 when it was anticipated that Weston Airport was coming in and that, potentially, because of the shortage, qualified staff would be sought. It was anticipated that there might be an option to poach our highly trained and skilled personnel. The issue was brought to senior management level and we addressed it. We continued to provide a 24-7 service all the way through until 2 June. As to when the issue materialised in terms of our knowing people were going for jobs and being offered jobs, that was in May, which is when the Tánaiste was informed, as he stated in the Dáil.
The Senator said tech pay 6 is not available to officers.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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That is my understanding.
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
My colleague will address that question on pay.
Regarding the infrastructure in Baldonnel, there is a plan to replace the control tower. We have done a master plan that covers a whole series of different actions that are going to be taken.
We are not trying to develop one at a time but get the money we can agree on through the national development plan in order to have a master plan to develop the whole lot at once. The air traffic control tower is one element, along with the hangers for the new aircraft. It is a case of planning ahead for all this. The capability plan indicates when we are going to get our new capability, and the master plans will facilitate any new accommodation.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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How many offers have there been under the service commitment scheme?
Mr. Rory O'Connor:
The Senator is right that officers do not receive the tech pay but get a watchkeeper's allowance once qualified. This would be significantly more than the tech pay, thereby having an overriding effect.
On the service commitment scheme, we are in the process of engaging with the personnel at this stage to see what is entailed.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Am I correct in saying that nobody has had an offer yet?
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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That is rather concerning.
The Secretary General talked about Bristow moving in. We knew Bristow was moving to Weston a long time before 2024.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Has the Department worked out the terms and conditions for the service commitment scheme? What I have seen is that we are simply taking what was available to pilots and transferring it to air traffic controllers. Surely, these are two very different occupations.
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
As the GOC says, we are working intensely on this issue. Obviously, we had to prepare for today, which is a very welcome occasion to discuss these matters with the members, but we have to work intensely. The minute we finish here, we will be discussing the issues further. However, we have largely worked out a significant number of them and, as the GOC says, we are discussing all this with the personnel involved. Hopefully, this will come to fruition in the coming days.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Would Ms McCrum agree that most who are about to leave do not meet the 12-year criterion? A pilot has to have 12 years of service.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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They are not worked out yet.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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My last question was about the service commitment for technical staff. The Secretary General said local bargaining could possibly be considered in that regard. I note that the GOC mentioned we were operating at 50%, or just under 50%, of our strength in terms of maintenance. It was also stated that some maintenance was carried out by external contractors. Maybe we bring our aircraft abroad to be serviced there. How much does this cost us annually? With regard to the figure for local bargaining, is it correct that the proportion is 3% over two years? Is that sufficient to encourage more technicians to stay?
Reference was made to the air traffic control cadet scheme. We currently have three cadets in Spain. Are they on €25,000 per year? It was mentioned at the start that incoming cadets were on €25,000 until they were commissioned. Is it correct that it pops up to €45,000 once they are commissioned?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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On a cadetship. Is it €45,000 after cadets get commissioned? Have the personnel in Spain been commissioned yet?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Are they on a lower wage, then? Are they on €25,000?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Even though they do the military training at the start. They will probably have done what three-star privates have done, but the pay is not reflective of that. That is my understanding of all cadetships, not just the ATC ones.
Is the maximum ATC enlistment age 37 or 39?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Is it attractive for somebody in his or her 30s who might have a mortgage and children to join any cadetship if the pay is less than what it is for a three-star private, even though he or she will have done six months of military training? Might some thought be put into addressing that?
My final point, the subject of which was referred to by Senator Craughwell, is on the service commitment for air traffic controllers. Will it be the same as that for pilots? My understanding is that one must serve 12 years to meet the service commitment. How many of our current air traffic controllers have already served 12 years? If it takes four years for the cadets who will come back from Spain to qualify, and if the commitment schemes are the same, what prevents one from driving down the road after four years, the State having paid for one’s training, to work in Weston rather than staying in Baldonnel?
Ms Jacqui McCrum:
On local bargaining, 3% of pay will be allocated. This is what we have to work out now. It is worked out between the representative associations, military management and the Department. Some work has been undertaken on that but it has not been finalised yet. That will wash itself out. One percent is foreseen to be payable in September, so the mechanisms will have to come to a conclusion over the coming weeks.
On cadet pay, there is a challenge if somebody enters at 38 years of age, but there was certainly an appetite. People join the Defence Forces for different reasons, and there certainly is an appetite to increase the pay and bring people up to the level in question. I know of one or two individuals who have moved from the Civil Service to the Defence Forces, and the challenge in question is one they have to accept at that level.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Do people bring their pay with them when they move from the Civil Service?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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There were some other questions.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Does that include the air traffic control cadetship?
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
The Army cadetship takes 15 months and the Naval Service cadetship takes longer. Based on the nature of training, the air traffic control cadetship is slightly shorter, but it has the on-the-job experience that one will hear mentioned. They differ depending on the skill set required before a cadet can be commissioned as an officer in the Defence Forces. There might be months in the difference.
Tom Clonan (Independent)
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There is great interest in this meeting and I have many queries coming in. If the Chair will permit me, I will ask a brief question from a listener, a retired senior officer and former colleague. He wants to know the rationale that precludes members of the Naval Service and Air Corps from applying for the new assistant chief of staff role.
I suspect he was in the Naval Service because he has "Angry in Cobh" written as his identity.
Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Is it open to applications?
Tom Clonan (Independent)
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Is there a possibility it will be open to all three services?
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
There is engagement with the representative associations, particularly RACO in this case. I am hopeful we will have a number of vacancies coming up at that rank, such as an assistant chief of staff and a cyber commander. The flag officer of the Naval Service is due to retire. We have a number of upcoming competitions. We will try to run a series of those boards. A number of them are open service-specific. To answer the question of the retired member, in our DFR CS4 regulation, which sets out the structure of the Defence Forces, the assistant chief of staff role is at the moment considered an Army appointment but, as Ms McCrum said, we have not yet engaged with the representative association with regard to that particular competition. We will do so, however.
Tom Clonan (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses and apologise for putting them on the spot. I know it was outside of the remit.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I believe this will be Senator Craughwell's third time to contribute. We will allow him one minute.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Terms and conditions have not yet been agreed for the service commitment scheme for air traffic controllers. Therefore, no offer can be on the table at this point in time. Is that true or false?
Will those who are either direct entry or promoted now to officer rank from air traffic control have to undergo such things as command and staff courses in order to progress through the ranks?
Mr. Rossa Mulcahy:
With regard to the question on courses, the intention is that the commissioning from the ranks scheme for the air traffic service will be exclusively for service within that particular unit. There are a number of senior appointments in that. If individuals want to go from one rank to another, they would conduct the normal career course in line with their colleagues in other services.
We are looking at a future promotion system as well. That is something on which we will engage with PDFORRA and RACO to consider how we would do that in the future. For wider direct entry competitions we take anyone in, such as an engineer or a cyber specialist, for example, and they serve a number of years in an engineer or communications and information services, CIS, unit. If they want to advance from one rank to another, they conduct the career courses. It is part of professional development as well as their technical competence. It gives them a sense of assurance and develops them into better leaders in the future. We have no problem with that.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I understand five will not qualify if the same criteria is being used as for the officers.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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There are no offers right now.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I am calling time now. On behalf of the committee I thank the witnesses for their time and the material they circulated to the committee in advance of today's meeting. We will take them up on their offer to visit. We hope this is the first of many engagements we will have with the witnesses to assist in the work they are doing. I thank them for the work they are doing and they can be assured of our support.