John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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No. 2 on the agenda is engagement on matters relating to social protection with the Minister for Social Protection and Minister for Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Dara Calleary.

Members are reminded that if they are participating in the meeting remotely, it must be from within the confines of the Leinster House complex. I remind all those in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are switched off or in silent mode.

I welcome the Minister and his officials. The are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to this committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make any charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that we should not comment on, criticise or make any charges against any person or entity outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

This committee welcomes the opportunity to engage with the Minister and the Department on the many issues that are affecting citizens in the social protection domain. Social protection matters affect the livelihoods and well-being of many of the most vulnerable in our society, and we are committed to ensuring those voices are represented and real progress occurs. The committee looks forward to engaging constructively on these matters through the parliamentary term.

I invite the Minister, Deputy Calleary, to make his opening statement.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas arís leis an gCathaoirleach, leis an gcoiste agus leis an gcléireach don chuireadh a thabhairt dom plé a dhéanamh ar na polasaithe agus na tosaíochtaí do mo dhá Roinn le linn an téarma Rialtais seo. Tá áthas orm freisin fáilte a chur roimh ár gcomhghleacaithe ó Sheanad Éireann. We had a very good discussion earlier in the select committee and I look forward continuing that with our colleagues from the Seanad.

As I said earlier when presenting the Revised Estimates of the Department, the budget of my Department is almost €27 billion for 2025 and, as the Chair commented, it is the largest of any Government Department. It goes without saying that my primary and principal responsibility as Minister and that of everybody who works in the Department of Social Protection is to ensure this money gets to the right people, at the right time, throughout the year, month by month, week by week and day in, day out. When we speak of numbers and big amounts, there is always a danger you forget that, behind all of those numbers, there are people who need the support and assistance. The support and services provided by my Department represent the most crucial financial support for hundreds of thousands of people the length and breadth of our island. These people - pensioners, young families, people with disabilities, carers and their carees, the unemployed - all rely on our Department to support them, often at times of huge difficulty, personal challenge and stress.

I know members will join me in recognising the hard and dedicated work of everybody who works in the Department of Social Protection. We notice this support in times of crisis - a worldwide pandemic, a continuing war in Europe, a cost-of-living crisis, a major weather event - but this support from the Department of Social Protection right across the country is delivered continuously every day without fuss or fanfare but with efficiency, courtesy, care, respect and empathy. I thank all of the staff in every Department of Social Protection office across the country. I have made it a priority since becoming Minister to get out and about to meet staff members in their workplace and hear directly from them about their work.

In this regard, following Storm Éowyn earlier this year, I met many of the people affected. The Department's community welfare service processed almost 94,000 claims for HAS, with almost 55,700 households already supported with more than €13.6 million through the HAS multi-stage response. That work was often done at night, at weekends and through home visits at times of weather challenge. I acknowledge the huge work that went in from the Department at that appalling time for so many people.

Another crucial part of that perspective also comes through the work of this and other committees, which provides a crucial channel for feedback on the concerns of citizens countrywide and provides insights and suggestions for improvements. I assure the committee of my continued support for its work and I look forward to our engagement over the next four and a half or so years. I will not always take it on board, but I will listen. I respect the committee system and this Oireachtas.

In addition to providing those crucial day-to-day services, as part of the programme for Government, my Department has already been charged with delivering on key commitments. The first of these is already delivered. The new jobseeker’s pay-related benefit was launched on 31 March. When you lose your job, the sudden loss of income can be difficult to adjust to, and this scheme seeks to help insulate people from that shock during the period of uncertainty while they seek new employment. More than 12,500 people have been helped by this scheme since its launch, and this is also a pathfinder scheme for other longer term policy objectives. The programme for Government commits to the introduction of a pay-related parent’s benefit, along with exploration of other areas where this pay-related model could be appropriate. Policy teams in the Department are hard at work on the policy considerations regarding these changes. The pay-related jobseeker’s benefit scheme will give us crucial empirical evidence to inform wider considerations. I will share our reviews of the pay-related jobseeker's benefit with the committee early next year to assist members in their deliberations on the other programmes.

The next major policy item on our agenda is the committee’s consideration of the bereaved partner’s pension Bill, which we will be returning to here in a couple of weeks. This Bill, upon enactment, will extend access to the widow’s, widower’s and surviving civil partner’s contributory pension to qualifying cohabitants for the first time. This legislation will extend support to bereaved partners of committed relationships that were not formalised through marriage or civil partnerships. I especially acknowledge John O’Meara and his family, whose loss led to the legal challenge that ultimately overturned the law. I also acknowledge the role played by Deputy Alan Kelly. We have a shared responsibility in the Oireachtas to follow through and expedite the implementation of this important piece of foundational and progressive social policy, and I look forward to working with both Houses on that.

Another headline item I want to mention as part of my social protection remit is the continuing progress towards implementation of My Future Fund, which is the automatic enrolment retirement savings system. My Future Fund is transformative. It will revolutionise how people save for their retirement. It is a landmark policy, and I note the key milestones recently achieved. We have advertised for the role of CEO and board members of the new national automatic enrolment retirement savings authority, NAERSA. These key roles will be filled through the Public Appointments Service. The CEO role will be based primarily in County Donegal, and it is important to note that this is the kind of practical and balanced regional development that I support - regional development that is aligned with my responsibilities in my other portfolio as Minister for Rural and Community Development agus an Ghaeltacht, but which I would be keen to champion even if I did not hold that brief.

Following the completion of a competitive procurement process, the names of the successful bidders for NAERSA’s investment management service contracts have been published and contracts will be signed imminently. These investment management companies will play a huge role in ensuring that My Future Fund is a success and represents good value for money for all participants. The initiatives I mentioned are all landmark measures I am determined to bring to fruition in the very near future. I am also determined to make progress across all major facets of the Department’s responsibilities over the lifetime of the Government. In particular, I want to see closer co-operation with colleagues in other Departments and real improvements in services and supports for people with disabilities. This is a top priority for the Taoiseach, the Government and me in my role as Minister for Social Protection. The new national disability strategy is being prepared and will focus on improving access to services, bringing down costs and improving outcomes for people with disabilities. In that regard, I am particularly delighted to serve on this committee with the former Minister of State, Senator Rabbitte. I thank her for her work in this space.

I am conscious that many disabled people face barriers in the workplace and when looking for employment. I want to address those barriers. The Department of Social Protection will lead in co-operation with colleagues in the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment on developing the employment pillar in the disability strategy. We have already taken some steps; just last week we announced significant improvements to the wage subsidy scheme. I was pleased to launch these improvements with the Minister, Deputy Foley, the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, and the Taoiseach, who was present and is fully committed to this scheme. We are also committed to assisting people with the cost of disability through the introduction of a payment and other measures that will be outlined in the strategy.

We all recognise the crucial role of family carers. The Government remains deeply committed to supporting carers. We are committed to significantly increasing income disregards for the carer’s allowance in each budget with a view to phasing out the means test during the lifetime of this Government. We have made significant changes to these disregards. In July, the weekly income disregards will increase further. For single carers this will increase from €450 to €625. For carers with a spouse or partner, this will increase from €900 to €1,250.

Another of my key priorities as Minister for Social Protection is protecting and, where possible, subject to budgetary constraints, enhancing the value and impact of core social welfare payments. In this regard, alongside improving outcomes for people with disabilities and carers, I will focus on tackling the issue of child poverty over the lifetime of this Government. This is vital. We know that children living in income-deprived households cannot or are restricted in their ability to benefit from education and other social activities to the same extent as other children. This has lifelong consequences. Addressing this issue is not only a moral imperative, it is a question of investing in the future well-being of our entire society and island. The reduction of child poverty will deliver benefits in the short and long term not just for individual children but also their families, local communities and ultimately for our society.

This is a broad overview. I look forward to a good exchange with members. I acknowledge and appreciate the work of the previous Minister, Heather Humphreys, during her time in the Department. I wish her well in her next chapter. There is little doubt that 2025 will bring challenges in this Department. In my short time as Minister, the team in the Department has demonstrated an ability and agility to deliver on the Government’s demanding reform agenda, providing critical support to the most vulnerable across the full breadth of our island. Progressing all of these policy areas in a financially sustainable way will be a challenge but I look forward to that challenge and to working with the committee. I and colleagues across Government will have to balance the competing priorities that face us as a society in critical areas such as social protection, housing, education and health. I look forward to meeting stakeholders covering the whole gamut of social protection at our Department’s pre-budget forum in July. I look forward to a continuous, constructive and at times, I am sure, robust engagement with this committee over the next four and a half years.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for his opening remarks. I invite members to discuss it. I remind those participating remotely to use the raise hand feature and to cancel it when they have spoken. I call Senator O'Reilly.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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How long have I got?

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Five minutes. I will be nice.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. I thank the Minister for coming to speak to the committee today. In his opening statement, he said on the carer's allowance "... with a view to phasing out the means test during the lifetime of the Government." While this is a positive step and the cost of caring and loss of income are a heavy burden for families, carers often provide 24-7 support and should not be judged on the income of their spouse or partner. Will the Department provide a detailed breakdown and timeline of when the means test will be abolished? The Minister said "with a view to". I find that slightly ambiguous. Does the Minister respond now or will I go on with another question?

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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It is up to the Minister.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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My other question concerns workers in Wellman International. Will the Minister answer why a multimillion-euro multinational company has used a tax loophole to cut ties with its subsidiary, gone into examinership and can only offer statutory redundancy, citing lack of funds? It is a multimillion-euro industry. The people who worked there all their lives are being offered statutory redundancy. Other subsidiaries in the Indorama group across Europe have gotten proper redundancy protection in recent years. Why have employees in Mullagh not received similar treatment?

Given the UK Supreme Court's finding that biological sex is the basis for sex-based protections under the UK Equality Act 2010 and considering the Gender Recognition Act 2015's lack of clarity in distinguishing between sex and gender, will the Minister commit to amending the Gender Recognition Act 2015 to explicitly define sex as biological sex? Such an amendment could ensure that Irish women's sex-based rights including access to single-sex spaces are protected in line with the principles of fairness and legal coherence highlighted in the For Women Scotland case while maintaining Ireland's distinct legal equality framework.

On disability, in the Minister's statement he said there is a commitment to "real improvements in services and supports for people with disabilities" and that he wished to improve the wage subsidy scheme. It has poor uptake among employers. What percentage of that budget goes unspent? On disability welfare payments, a high number are granted on appeal. Has the Minister looked into the reason for that? Will he comment on any plans to implement personalised budgets for people with disabilities?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator. On the means test abolition, we are working towards that over the lifetime of this Government. As I said in my opening remarks, we will be making a major improvement in two weeks' time. I want to continue that income disregard with a view to phasing it out over the course of, I hope, four budgets and possibly five. We are very committed to doing that. We had our carers' forum a number of weeks ago in the Department. We all hear it at first hand; none of us are immune from hearing the amazing work carers do day to day and the pressure on them. We are focused on doing that but it has to be done in a sustainable way so that a future government does not have to reverse it. I assure the Senator of our priority in relation to carers.

On the Wellman situation, my thoughts are with the workers there. The jobseeker's pay-related benefit will be available to them. I cannot comment on the specifics; it is a matter for the company. We operate the redundancy scheme on behalf of the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment. I do not have any specific knowledge of the company. We will make the services of the Department available, as well always do in a job challenge situation such as this, in the supports we can offer such as retraining supports. I am happy to work with the Senator in providing her with details of that support.

Regarding disability appeals, there is always a high number granted. I am watching that. I am conscious that we have put a lot of work into domiciliary care allowance, DCA, appeals in particular, and I have asked the Department to prioritise and reduce those. Inevitably, in an appeals process we get a lot more information that clarifies issues, and that is possibly why there is such a high turnover.

In relation to the issue around gender and gender recognition, that is a Scottish legal decision that has no impact on the Irish legal service or on Irish legislation.

We relaunched the wage subsidy scheme last year with a view to increasing the number on it. I am not happy with the number of employers on it. We will also be enhancing the publicity around the wage subsidy scheme. Many employers want to take it on but have concerns. One of the lessons is that if they get assistance from other employers with regard to taking it on, and get advice from other employers, they will be more inclined to do that. There are about 2,000 people on wage subsidy at the moment and I want to increase that, particularly the number of employers. We have an event next week with employers to encourage other employers to come on board with the scheme and to answer any queries they have.

I will say to the entire committee that if there are any employers with queries about the scheme, we have a brilliant series of videos available from all sorts of employers to encourage people to come on board, and they can access them through gov.ie/wss. Again, if committee members know of employers who have queries, they should put them in touch with me and we will put employment advisers in touch with them to assist. If members have any suggestions as to how we promote WSS even more, I am more than happy to take them on board.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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It is good to see the Minister again. We hardly had time to miss each other during the short break.

It is a very sad day to be sitting at a committee and have people come in and beg for the implementation of British court rulings. As an Irish republican, I know there is very little by way of justice that comes out of the British courts, and I would certainly not be looking to repeat their judgments here.

I have a couple of questions and I will hopefully get a chance to come in again. My first questions relate to child poverty. The Minister and I know that the best and most effective way to lift children out of poverty, particularly consistent poverty, is through the use of in-cash payments, and the report from the ESRI yesterday absolutely backs that. It shows the way in which a second means-tested child benefit payment could have a transformative impact and, depending on how it is structured, could take those children out of consistent poverty. Is the Minister looking at that as a mechanism?

Could the Minister give details on the child poverty unit, which he mentioned at our last session? What will the focus be? A fair amount of analysis has already been done and there is a lot of information in the public sphere. I am not certain that more reviews are necessary. The tools are there to lift children out of consistent poverty. I worry when I hear the Minister say that child poverty is going to be a priority for him because he also said that housing was, and we saw what way that went. To put meat on the bones, what is the Minister going to be doing with the child poverty unit? Where is the focus? Is the Minister giving consideration to increasing and targeting those in-cash payments?

Lone parent households are among the most at risk of being in consistent property. Where there is a shared custody arrangement and parents are co-parenting, we know they are effectively lone parents because only one parent in that scenario is treated as the lone parent and the other is not regarded in the same way. We know that direct payments to children alleviate child poverty but they only go to one parent. In a case where there is shared custody and co-parenting, how is that divide managed? Is it the Department’s view or the Minister's view that it should be managed from within the family somehow? Has the Minister looked at any mechanism by which that in-cash transfer could be made?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I will take the second question first, if that is okay. This is something I am going to look at. I have come across it in our work in the last number of months. I would certainly welcome people's guidance and advice on it, as Deputies, but also as a committee. It is one area where I will definitely try to get people's thoughts.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome that.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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In relation to child poverty generally, first, there is a commitment in the programme for government that we will look at a targeted child benefit payment, and we are doing some preliminary work on that. I would also point out that over the course of 2025 we have increased expenditure on children by up to €115 million, including €72 million to fund the extension of the school meals programme, €15 million on the new baby grant and, specifically related to child poverty, €15 million that is funding a €60 per week increase in the income threshold for the working family payment. That is a payment I will be very much focused on in terms of addressing poverty generally and, in particular, child poverty.

I only got sight of the ESRI report late last night and we are reflecting on it. It points out the importance of issues such as the school meals programme and it also points out the issue of non-direct payments with regard to child poverty, which I think should be taken into account as well.

The work of the child poverty unit in the Department of the Taoiseach connects to that and other Departments are also involved in dealing with child poverty, in particular the Departments of children and education. In that context, the introduction of free school books has transformed the outcome for many families. It has been highlighted to me by a number of organisations as a very important support, particularly at this time of year and next month, although it might be unseen. As I said, we are opening applications this week for the back-to-school clothing and footwear allowance, which will assist some 179,000 children. That money will be paid in June as well.

The whole role of the unit within the Taoiseach's office is to start blowing down the silos that are there within the system and, obviously, in the Department of Health. Too many people are being caught between these silos. It absolutely fries my head after 18 years in this job that silos are getting in the way of people getting the services they need. The Taoiseach is determined to try to break down those silos and we will do our bit in the Department of Social Protection, but not on our own. That is why the unit is being set up.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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That is understood. The Minister raised the issue of the school books scheme, which is welcome, and I know from talking to people that it does make a difference. However, in some instances, it has been superseded by a device payment. Families are getting the requests now. I know the back-to-school allowance is about to open but the device payments have to be made now and they are between €800 and €1,000 per child. That is just not doable for some families. Schools are moving to devices. While eliminating the cost of school books is a good thing, it is subsequently replaced by an additional cost of between €800 and €1,000. I appreciate all of the work that goes into schemes like the free schoolbooks scheme, and I absolutely get it, but sometimes life supersedes that. People no longer have to pay for books but the sad story is that the school is not using books anymore and has moved to digital. I have my own views about whether that is a good or bad thing but, notwithstanding that, schools are moving in that direction and parents now have to find between €800 and €1,000. Therefore, they do not have to find money for books, and that is grand, but they have to find money for devices. I wonder if work is ongoing on how that can be offset. It is certainly something that is coming into my clinics at the moment given people are being asked to pay that amount of money.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I would not like to say there is work ongoing but, certainly, based on today's meeting, we will follow it up internally within the Department but also across the Department of education. That is not the intention. The intention was to reduce the burden on parents. I suspect I am with the Deputy on that, and I would prefer a book at any time.

It is not the intention to place that cost on parents at this time. That is not right, especially when the option is there for the State to support the very important schoolbooks scheme. That is where it should be.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister and his team for being here. I wish him the very best in his role. His is a huge brief across a number of different areas, but we are discussing social protection today. I also welcome the expansion of the disregard for carers. That was a long time coming but it is great to see it will be here in July. It will bring a certain amount of relief to many families in the same way that the new jobseeker's pay-related benefit scheme launched in March has done. The fact that 12,500 people availed of it just shows the appetite that was there for it. It is really welcome.

I will tease something out regarding the bereaved partners Bill. I know it is not for today's discussion, but let us look at the case of a woman who is on the widow's pension and who cannot avail of illness benefit if she gets sick at work. I have am that soldier. When I lost my husband in 2011, I had to return to work within six months. I had been on a career break and had to return to work. As time went by, with the kids and everything else, I got sick, but could not avail of illness benefit. I was very fortunate in that I had an employer who was prepared to pay me, but many employers are not to do that. I would have had to give up the widow's pension to get illness benefit, so I could never get sick. That was the reality. That was my world. It is the world of an awful lot of other people. Is there a chance or opportunity, when the bereaved partners Bill is being considered, to review that piece that was introduced in 2013? It was not there previously. There was a piece where women could have the widow's pension but could also avail of illness benefit. Even if it is only half of that benefit, it would go a long way towards recognising that there has been a loss in a household, which, at the same time, is down one income.

Is it correct that the people maintaining the my future fund scheme are not an Irish company but a company outside the State? Is it correct that the Department is struggling to fill the CEO position? It has been advertised more than once, with a salary of €220,000. Does the Minister think there has been enough advertising of the scheme? We are now six months out from its launch. It is great in respect of where we are going but, at the same time, are we doing enough to bring employers on board? Do they have an understanding of it?

I welcome the Minister's offer that the Department will work with us on the wage subsidy scheme. Informing employers about that scheme is very important. The ability programme, which was brought in by the previous Minister, former Deputy Humphreys, and which I hope the Department will keep, is a game-changer in moving from 3% to 6%.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for his leniency. On the fuel allowance, I go back to the issue of the single person versus the married couple, or joint income persons of older ages, where the amounts involved are €524 versus €1,048. If somebody were able to avail of the €1,048 and then lost his or her partner but was over the threshold, the gap between €524 and €1,048 is huge. I am talking hypothetically in order not to confuse everybody, but if my partner or husband died and I was on the old age pension and he had a small pension of €200, I would be over the threshold by a couple of euro and would not qualify for the €524. I would be over by €6 or €7. Is there flexibility in the review of the fuel allowance?

On the carer's allowance appeals section in the Department, are there enough staff addressing appeals? Some appeals have been in train since last September. One on my desk has been ongoing since August. The issue is the time taken to address appeals. Nobody seems to be able talk about them. When you ring about something going to appeals, you are told it is out of the section's hands. Is there a way of moving appeals on a little quicker? I apologise for all the questions and thank the Cathaoirleach for his leniency.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Senator. She is always good at getting value for her buck.

The Senator raised seven issues. I welcome her remarks on carer's allowance. On the disregards from July on, a carer in a two-adult household with an income of approximately €69,000 will retain the maximum figure. That €69,000 figure was €37,000 in June 2022. A carer with an income of €97,000 will retain a partial payment. That €97,000 was €60,000 in June 2022. That gives a sense of the direction in which the Government is determined to go. I intend to continue the previous Minister's work in that space.

I totally hear the Senator regarding illness benefit and the widow's pension, but I point out, and this is important, that if a person is getting a reduced rate of a widow's, widower's or surviving civil partner payment, they can also get a reduced rate of illness benefit. The challenge is to make sure the combined amount of both payments is not greater than the maximum rate of illness benefit that person would be entitled to. That is because there is a one person one payment rule within the Department. We are confined within that space. I am happy to engage with the committee in this regard. It is certainly an issue. Without highlighting it, the Senator's case is one example that is typical of many. The last thing I want the Department to do is to add to somebody's troubles and challenges at a time of grief.

Auto-enrolment, AE, is being run from Letterkenny by a company, Talon Consulting, which employs more than 1,000 people there. They are providing a lot of the expertise in the background. We advertised for the CEO of NAERSA only a few weeks ago. That was late but we are trying to get all this done. I am not aware of any second round of ads. We will of course promote a job such as this far and wide. I am confident that we will fill it. From July on, public ads will go out to tell people all about my future fund. We signed off on a budget and ads in order that people can understand and get familiar with the fact my future fund is coming and will start from 1 January 2026. We are increasing the awareness of it. We have also advertised for board members for NAERSA. As of now, I am very confident that everything is on schedule. We postponed the date from September to January because we had consultations with payroll providers, who made the very fair point that they would be making changes in November anyway as a consequence of whatever budgetary changes come in. It was not right to ask for two changes to be made, and the expense of that, in the context of a September roll-out of AE and budgetary changes in November. It is far more efficient to go with 1 January.

On the wage subsidy scheme, I am totally committed to the ability programmes. They are brilliant. Well done to the Senator on her work in that. These programmes are beginning to gather steam throughout the country. The teams working in them are excellent. I ask any employer who is thinking in this space to engage with us and throw all their questions at us. We have grants for some employers for adaption of workplaces. If they have questions, we can answer them confidentially. A number of examples are available throughout the system. I do not want to highlight any particular case, but companies such as Mr Price, Musgrave Group and Velo Coffee Roasters are involved. People from Murphy's Furniture in Wexford were in with us. These are all in retail and in different kinds of spaces. We have a lot more to do, as the civil and public service, to promote people and give people with disabilities an opportunity, as do political parties. I made the point to my own party management that we need to be out there. I am not saying parties will qualify for WSS - we will not - but we all need to buy into this space. I will encourage all Oireachtas Members, as representatives, to point this out to employers and point out the supports that are there, including the financial supports but, more importantly, the supports that are there to assist them in going on this journey.

On carer's appeals, I asked the appeals team to focus on appeal processing times. We made some changes to appeals in respect of online appeals, etc., that have added to it.

In 2024, the appeals office received 36,530 appeals and it processed 28,000. A total of 3.4 million decisions were taken by the Department of Social Protection in 2024. Some 5%, or 173,000, of these were appealed. We are working through the appeals. If there are specific emergency appeals, then the Department is more than happy to engage with them. We have appointed extra appeals officers. We have also implemented a new IT system. In December and January , the previous Minister, Heather Humphreys, ensured that 20 additional staff were assigned to the appeals unit. They have been trained up and are working their way through the appeals.

I focused in particular on the DCA. The final figure is that 21,600 appeals were on hand at the end of December 2024 and, as of 30 May, which is the most recent information we have, 17,949 appeals remain. We are working through them. I am happy that the resources are in place. I thank the appeals team, which has thrown everything at this in the past while.

We will look at fuel allowance thresholds in the context of the budget. We also have a means review under way currently across all schemes in the Department. That will address other schemes that were raised earlier as well.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister very much. I call Deputy Guirke.

Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I forgot to raise one or two issues earlier. One relates to access to social welfare for the self-employed. It seems to be much harder for them to get anything if they are off work. They do not qualify for injury or illness benefit unless they have the required PRSI contributions.

In many cases, social welfare benefits work out better for the rich than the poor. Benefits should be more targeted at children, lone parents, people with disabilities and carers – the people who need them most. Those are points I did not raise earlier.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate those points. We have increased the amount of support available for the self-employed in terms of pensions and other supports in recent years, but it does depend on the number of stamps that are paid, so we will not see the full benefit of it for a number of years. People must have paid the right stamps. We also addressed the PRSI rate of the self-employed for pensions.

In response to the Deputy's second point, we are trying to help people out who are dealing with very serious challenges and who do not have the kind of income we all wish they could have. The reason we have disregards and means tests is to make sure the payments are as targeted as possible.

In recent years, there have been once-off payments. Those payments have been universal, with a view to the fact that many families who might seem to be on big incomes are under considerable income pressure because of the cost-of-living increases in the past four years in particular. Many working families who are above the normal thresholds for social protection are under enormous pressure. We were able to assist them, in particular with the one-off payments.

We are now moving back to more targeted measures, as we discussed earlier, to address child poverty, working family payments and also assisting people who are in especially difficult situations. I am determined that this system will affect those most under pressure and in most need. The social welfare system has always shown itself to be one of the most effective in terms of reducing poverty. It stands up to any analysis, EU-wise or OECD-wise, in that regard. That is not to be complacent. We have a lot more work to do in that space and I will continue to do it.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister very much. Does any other member wish to comment? Those who did not speak in the first round can now contribute.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I will be very brief. I apologise because I had to leave for a while to attend an online meeting with HIQA. I wish the Minister well in his new brief. I thank the officials accompanying him today.

Could we have a sliding scale for payments? I am new as a TD but I gave more than 40 years' service as a councillor on Laois County Council. There was always a cut-off point, which was totally unfair to people. A sliding scale would allow people to be entitled to something. I always found it very difficult to tell a person they were €10 over the cut-off point, that I could not do anything for them and that there was nothing else for them. It was a question of there being no hope. It was the only case where I saw people going from the council in pure despair. Could the Minister please look at that as part of his brief?

All Departments should look at this issue. There must be some way to allow people to get a partial entitlement. I am very much focused on that because I found it very difficult to tell people they had no entitlement. It is the only area in which I could not give any hope to people. The Minister must examine the issue.

I am delighted the Minister met Mr Price and Musgraves. We have to do a lot of work to try to encourage people who are in a position to do so to employ people with disabilities. I see the benefits to the people I know who get such work. The problem is that they do not get enough time. There is real excitement among people and their parents or guardians when they get such work. I urge the Minister to put some energy into that area, by way of a return – not necessarily financial – to companies who employ people with disabilities. He could impress on them an awareness that they are doing it to try and encourage other companies by means of photographic shoots or whatever else, with the agreement of the person involved who gets the work.

I have seen the excitement where I live. I spoke on a couple of occasions to a child with Down's syndrome who goes to work every morning and who was so excited to be working. He said he would love if they kept him for longer during the day. It is great to see it. I had a great experience the other morning when I was travelling here on a bus from the train station, as I had got the train to Dublin. A young girl on the bus told all of us she was going to work in the Department of Finance. She said it was a great day for her because she was three years' in her job. Everyone around her on the bus congratulated her, even though they did not know her from Adam. That was lovely. I would like if the Minister could do a little more in this regard for the duration of his time in his Ministry.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. I am totally in agreement with him on that. There is the skill and the experience of the participant and also the extraordinary life experience they bring to the company. The company and its employees win from that person. I have seen that in companies.

I acknowledge the former Ceann Comhairle, Deputy Ó Fearghaíl, who introduced the scheme into the Oireachtas. We have all gained from that scheme. Companies gain from having a person with those life experiences, views and skills working with them. We will be promoting the wage subsidy scheme, WSS. We have very good videos of companies online through gov.ie/wss. My concern is that many companies might think it is for the big companies with massive HR departments. It is not; it is for the owner-operators and the small companies – any company.

Most means-assessed schemes have sliding scales of payment below the maximum rate. For instance, we have a half-rate carer's payment. I made the point earlier that, even though the illness benefit scheme is not perfect, we can pay a reduced rate along with other pensions as well.

I accept that the cut-off point is difficult, but without it we would not have the budget to support the most vulnerable. There are sliding scales for many schemes. It is very difficult for those who are on the wrong side of the cut-off point, but we have tried to adjust the approach in recent years. It is something we will definitely keep an eye on.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I have a few short questions for the Minister. I want to pick up on the diversity issue. As we look across the large pond, we see people going to war on diversity, equality and inclusion. It is good that we can point to some success here. I want to ask the Minister about his Department. It is fair enough that he put it back to the parties, which is an important thing to do, but I want to ask him about the employment of persons with disabilities in his Department. He will be familiar with this question because it is one I asked of him in his previous role as well. Has he set targets in his Department and, if so, is he hitting them? If he is not hitting them, does he have a plan to do so?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We are already well above the average. I will give the Deputy the specifics provided with those subsequently. She set me a challenge about targets and I will work with Department management to set those targets. In the past year, we have appointed 69 disability advisers in Intreo offices across the country. This was previously done at regional level. The view of the Department was it should be done locally to give people more one-to-one, personal support. Those advisers are on the ground across the country. I will revert to the Deputy with the specifics and with a target.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister also provide detail on the 69 advisers and where they are located? That would be useful.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Thanks. The Minister stated that if, people lost their jobs, the sudden loss of income could be difficult to adjust to. It definitely can but even if the loss of income is not sudden, it can still be difficult to adjust to. I am sure seasonal workers have written to the Minister, as they have to me, so he will be aware that they are aggrieved they will not be able to access pay-related jobseeker's benefit because it is predictable that they will be unemployed. I would contend that, be it a sudden loss of income or a predicted one, it is no less of a shock to the system. They feel aggrieved to have been left out. It is hard for them to hear ads on the radio advising people who have lost their jobs. They do lose their jobs - they just to it routinely. I am talking about school secretaries, caretakers and so on. The Minister and I both have people in the teaching profession in our lives, so I am saying this with an advisory note. It makes it difficult to be the only person in the staff room with no form of income continuance over the summer and other break periods. Has any thought been given by the Department to doing something for seasonal workers who undergo a period of unemployment that is predictable but, nonetheless, difficult to adjust to?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate the position they are in but the key word the Deputy used was "predictable". They know from year to year what is coming. We in the Department need to get a quicker turnaround in terms of payments to them. Jobseeker's pay-related benefit is for people in an unpredictable situation like the one we discussed earlier, where a company has to make redundancies at a late stage. We can look at it in the context of the review but the word is "predictable". This is for the unpredictable ones where they will hopefully get back into employment within a few months. Seasonal workers are in a more predictable space.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that but whether you know you will be broke or are surprised by being broke, you are still broke. If you do not have the money, you do not have the money. They also know they will face long waits, so I welcome the fact the Minister will look at that. It is an issue. Particularly in a school setting, we can see why it would be. There is the secretary and the caretaker, while everybody else in the staff room has access to some form of payment over the summer. The Minister can see how that would go over.

Regarding auto-enrolment, the Minister referenced value for money. Does he have a mechanism by which that will be determined? How will it be done? Will it be on an ongoing, rolling basis or will we get reports on it?

Everyone is asking similar questions on the means test for carers. Will it be right up to the end of the Government, assuming, as I do not, that the Government will go full term? Alternatively, is it intended that it will be delivered before the end? We often see Governments withholding some benefits until the very end and then the unfortunate electorate is told that, if a Government is re-elected, it will definitely, definitely do it this time. Is the plan to phase it out before the end or exactly at the end, which might be more problematic?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Part of NAERSA's remit is to ensure we get value for money in line with the normal returns on a pension and to ensure the majority of money people invest goes back into their pensions. From what we are seeing in the procurement process for investment advisers, the fact we are bringing 800,000 people to the table has considerably reduced the costs. If those 800,000 people had gone the traditional way of finding their own personal pension plans, their costs would have been considerably higher. Already in this preliminary stage, it is showing value for money but I am with the Deputy on that. When we put the board and chair in place, they will be clear on that.

I cannot give a timeline on the means testing. We have made huge changes and will continue that pattern of change. I also want to increase carers' weekly payment and make many other investments. I see our social protection system as an investment, particularly in carers. I want to make other improvements as well. We have to time those and make sure they are all sustainable.

Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I will raise two issues. One relates to the partial capacity benefit. The qualifying criteria for that are illness benefit and invalidity benefit. Is thought being given to including disability allowance? If someone has a disability, he or she could have been born with a congenital condition and that condition can be mild, severe or profound. Many people on the domiciliary care allowance go straight to the disability allowance. They actually do not ever hit illness or invalidity benefit, because that is what they have been advised to do. Retrospectively going from disability to invalidity is very difficult. Has the Minister considered that? Think of the number of people on disability allowance who we are trying to get into that partial work piece. That is the missing element in this conversation.

I am back on my hobby-horse of auto-enrolment, as a former financial adviser. I have a big interest in the process of auto-enrolment. I appreciate the Minister has brought the office to Donegal. It is welcome it has gone out to the west of Ireland. It is great to see that happening. Who are our pension advisers? NAERSA is employing many people but is our pension advice being brought from the UK? My understanding is the advice is not happening in Ireland but is coming from the UK. I would like to think we would use our own advisers.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Senator email me the details regarding partial capacity benefit? We will engage with her on that, particularly with regard to her experience in the sector.

On auto-enrolment, we have just completed the procurement process for the investment advisers. We have selected three from a very competitive procurement process: Irish Life; Amundi, a French company; and BlackRock. We have three very good companies, including Irish Life, who will give the advice we need in this space. Their work and advice will be overseen by NAERSA, which will be based in Letterkenny and will be very aware of local market conditions and local pressures. We had a successful procurement process and had people who were not selected, such was the interest.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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Deputy Guirke mentioned the lack of supports for people who were self-employed. There is also bogus self-employment. What is the Department doing to clamp down on that kind of thing? We have seen what has been happening with RTÉ. Basically, employees were being categorised as contractors. I actually think the Department knew about this. What will it do in the future to clamp down on bogus self-employment?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think there is any evidence the Department was aware of this and did not act.

We now have a special unit within the Department focusing on many of these cases. It is dealing with all of the cases. It is complex, involving going through records, including individual pay records, and how they were contracted and dealing with their employers. It is an area that I have been briefed on every month as part of our management team meetings. It is an area where there is proactive work under way across a number of employers and many employees at present in that space. Money is being recouped to the Department on a monthly basis. If the Senator looks at our annual report for 2024, which was published this week, she will see some of the figures there.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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That is good to hear.

On a point of clarity, the Gender Recognition Act 2015 falls under the Department's remit. I was not asking about Scottish legislation; I was only giving it as example. I was asking the Minister if he would commit to amending the Gender Recognition Act 2015. It falls under the Department's remit. As we speak, there are three men in Limerick women's prison, one of whom identified as a woman after he was convicted. It needs to be addressed. Many people have a good interest in this and wish to protect women's rights and women's spaces.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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We operate the General Register Office. To be clear, the policy responsibility does not lie with this Department; it lies with the Department of children and equality.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the members, the Minister and the officials. It was great to have this engagement today and I look forward to further engagement. As the Minister outlined, today's engagement related to social protection. We will have engagement on rural and community development in future meetings. I thank the Minister for his contributions today and for providing the various briefing materials in advance, which assisted the committee in its deliberations. We look forward to the Minister's continued engagement as it goes along.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach, the clerk to the committee and the team.