Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 11 June 2025
Committee on Infrastructure and National Development Plan Delivery
Planning, Approving and Delivering Transport Infrastructure Projects: Discussion
2:00 am
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The purpose of the meeting is to discuss the steps in planning, approving and delivering transport infrastructure projects, including those covered in the national development plan, NDP. Today I am pleased to welcome Mr. Garret Doocey, assistant secretary general and Mr. David O'Grady, principal officer, Department of Transport; Mr. Peter Walsh, chief executive and Ms Geraldine Fitzpatrick, acting director of capital programme management, Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII; and Mr. Hugh Creegan, interim chief executive and Mr. Eoin Gillard, assistant director of transport investment, National Transport Authority, NTA.
Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
For this meeting, I proposed to call on the Department of Transport first, followed by TII and then the NTA. Once we have heard the opening presentations, members will be afforded a six-minute slot for questions and answers initially. There will be another round of contributions for those members who want to come in a second time.
I invite Mr. Doocey to make his opening statement.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
Many thanks for the invitation to appear before the committee today. By way of introduction, I am the assistant secretary general in the Department with responsibility for active travel, public transport and roads investment. I am joined by my colleague, Mr. David O’Grady, who is a principal adviser from our regional and local roads division. In the interests of time, I will take it that the speech will be on the record and will skip through some parts of it. As per the committee's invitation, I will start the discussion with a brief overview of responsibilities, structures, and frameworks in place between our Department and its agencies as they relate to infrastructure delivery before highlighting some examples of delivery in the transport sector since the publication of the previous NDP. I will then briefly look forward to the next few years.
The Department of Transport has responsibility for policy development and implementation in key areas of the land transport sector, such as active travel, public transport and roads. The Department secured a budget allocation for 2025 of €3.9 billion, comprising more than €1 billion in current funding and €2.9 billion in capital funding. Delivering transport infrastructure projects depends on a highly integrated approach between our Department, which has which is responsible for policy and management of the overall capital budget, the day-to-day approving authorities, such as the NTA, in relation to active travel and public transport, or TII, in relation to national roads, and sponsoring agencies, such as Iarnród Éireann in the rail sector and local authorities across the country for both roads and active travel programmes. Agencies in the transport sector such as TII and the NTA are well positioned and bring a wealth of experience to their roles as approving authorities and sponsoring agencies. Accordingly, the transport sector is on a strong footing for ensuring that transport projects align with national objectives and deliver value for money for the taxpayer.
The Department has developed the national investment framework for transport in Ireland, NIFTI, which is the high-level strategic framework to support the consideration and prioritisation of future investment in land transport. NIFTI establishes both modal and intervention hierarchies for investment proposals. For example, active travel and public transport solutions should be considered before private transport and maintenance and optimisation of existing assets should be considered before substantial improvements or new infrastructure. This seeks to ensure that the most sustainable and cost-effective solution to a given transport need is identified. Sitting underneath NIFTI is the transport appraisal framework, TAF, a transport-specific set of appraisal guidelines developed in line with the overarching infrastructure guidelines. The TAF provides appraisal and implementation guidance that aims to encourage the consideration of a wide range of options to achieve policy objectives and promotes investment in the transport system that is in line with international best practice, meets the needs of society, fulfils strategic policy objectives, and delivers value for money through a common framework for robust transport appraisal.
In terms of oversight of our investment programme, the Department has a number of structures in place across each of the major investment areas. On active travel, the Department meets quarterly with the NTA to review progress at a programme level, with the NTA overseeing delivery at the project level. On public transport, the Department meets monthly with the NTA to monitor delivery across the public transport programme with a specific focus on those projects classed as major projects by the infrastructure guidelines. There are separate arrangements in place regarding the protection and renewal of the rail network, which are derived from EU law and see the Department and the Commission for Railway Regulation overseeing the delivery of the programme on the ground by Iarnród Éireann. On national roads, the Department meets quarterly with TII to review progress across the national road programme, with a particular departmental focus on those major projects costing more than €200 million that have received Government approval. With regard to regional and local roads, arrangements differ somewhat, reflecting the fact that the Department itself is the approving authority in this sector, with the Department’s engineering inspectorate carrying out on-site inspections with the local authority and represented on construction stage monitoring committees, desk and on-site checks carried out to ensure compliance with departmental procedures and strategic advisory committee meetings held with senior local authority personnel and Department staff to consult and review the regional and local roads programme.
As a Department we are actively engaged with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation in reviewing the current NDP and seeking to deliver improved transport outcomes for citizens across the country. This NDP will hopefully build on the successes that we have seen since publication of the previous NDP. While there is rightly a renewed focus on improving delivery, it is also important to acknowledge the delivery that has occurred since publication of the previous NDP in 2021. In active travel, for example, we have seen the investment programme brought outside of the five metropolitan areas and into towns, villages and rural areas that have never had consistent investment in active travel infrastructure.
Investment of the past five years has supported the delivery of more than 1,000 km of walking and cycling infrastructure across the country, and all delivered on the ground by local authorities working for the benefit of their local communities.
In public transport, new bus and train fleets are already in service, with a new DART fleet in testing for entry into service next year and an order for a new Enterprise fleet expected to be signed later this year. Importantly, these investments are supporting our decarbonisation efforts with a fully electric service in operation in Athlone, bus depots already electrified in Dublin and Limerick and plans to do similar elsewhere well advanced, battery-electric units forming part of the new DART fleet and electric double-decker buses in service in Dublin and Limerick.
On the rail network, charging facilities are being constructed in Drogheda to support the new battery-electric units already mentioned, a new station opened at Pelletstown and another under construction at Woodbrook, with another new station under construction in Waterford, forming the centre of a new city quarter at the North Quays. The largest ever investment in Cork’s rail network is under way, with the new platform in Kent Station already opened, signalling upgrades under construction and double tracking from Glounthaune to Midleton well under way. In Limerick, Colbert Station has been redeveloped, with a modern integrated bus-rail and public realm project completed and open for use. The disused Foynes line is being brought back into service as a freight line. In Galway, Ceannt Station is being redeveloped to deliver a much improved passenger experience, with works at Oranmore station expected to start next year. Importantly, this year, we have increased funding by 67% for the retrofitting of legacy infrastructure to make it more accessible, particularly for disabled and older people.
Of course, public transport is not just about infrastructure but is also about services, and since the previous NDP we have seen expanded public transport services delivered in every part of the country. New town bus services have been rolled out in Athlone, Carlow, Clonmel and Portlaoise, with services planned for Ennis and Mullingar next. In towns such as Dundalk, Drogheda, Kilkenny, Navan and Sligo, existing services have been improved, with additional capacity provided to support service expansion. Across rural areas, Connecting Ireland has brought over 150 new and enhanced bus services to parts of the country that have not had scheduled public transport services for many years, if ever in some places. In Dublin, new services have been rolled out as part of the BusConnects programme with similar planned for each of the other four cities. The response to these investments has been phenomenal with an average of approximately 1 million passenger journeys now being made across Ireland’s public transport network every day.
Importantly, we have also seen investment in our road network over the same period, improving regional accessibility, alleviating problems caused by through-traffic in rural towns and supporting that expanded public transport network already mentioned. Investment under the current NDP on the national road network has delivered the N4 Collooney to Castlebaldwin scheme, the N5 Westport to Turlough scheme, the Dunkettle interchange upgrade, the Baile Bhuirne to Macroom scheme and bypasses of both Listowel and Moycullen, which have been completed and are open for use. On the regional and local road network, eight of the 12 strategic schemes listed in the NDP have been completed, including the Athy southern distributor road, Sallins bypass, Bettystown to Laytown relief road and the recently opened Shannon crossing and Killaloe bypass. Across both roads programmes, a number of important schemes are currently in construction, such as the N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge, the M28 Cork to Ringaskiddy and the Adare bypass schemes. On the regional and local road network, the Tralee northern relief road and the Coonagh to Knockalisheen Road in Limerick are under construction.
A critically important part of infrastructure is ensuring that a sufficient pipeline of projects is always in development. Establishing a credible pipeline of projects, supported by dedicated funding streams, gives certainty to the market and can create efficiencies in terms of delivery of an overall investment programme. Across both the public transport and roads programmes there are a large number of projects in earlier stages of development or emerging from the planning system. The most notable of these include BusConnects Dublin, where all 12 of the core bus corridors have now received planning permission, with the first of these corridors due to start construction later this year; DART+ West and DART+ South West, both of which have received planning permission, with DART+ Coastal North application lodged with An Bord Pleanála; the Donegal trans-European transport network, TEN-T, improvement scheme, a massive investment in Donegal’s road infrastructure, which has received Government approval at approval gate 1 and will be lodged by Donegal County Council with the board shortly; and MetroLink, where we expect a planning decision from the board in the coming months.
Further back in the development pipeline, we have BusConnects Cork, with its preliminary business case under review by the Department at the moment, while preliminary business cases are expected to be submitted by TII to us later this year in respect of the N24 Cahir to Limerick junction and the N4 Carrick-On-Shannon to Dromod schemes.
A wide range of investments is taking place in the Irish transport sector at a scale we have rarely seen previously. In transport, we have strong governance arrangements in place via our frameworks and our agencies which can, I hope, give this committee assurance on the oversight and management of these projects in line with international best practice. These investments present a unique opportunity for us to change the offering involved in the transport sector while helping to decarbonise the sector, facilitate continued economic and population growth, support the delivery of housing and, more broadly, offering strong value for money. I again thank the committee for the invitation. We look forward to engaging.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank Mr. Doocey for his opening statement. I invite Mr. Walsh to make his submission.
Mr. Peter Walsh:
I thank the committee for the opportunity to appear before it to discuss TII’s role in delivering high-quality transport infrastructure, including projects under the NDP. I am joined by my colleague Ms Geraldine Fitzpatrick, TII’s acting director of capital programmes.
TII's role in delivering transport infrastructure is set out in the duties and functions assigned to TII through legislation. The National Roads Authority, NRA, operating as TII since 2015, was established under the Roads Act 1993. It is the general duty of TII to secure the provision of a safe and efficient network of national roads having regard to the needs of all users. Under the infrastructure guidelines, TII is the approving authority for national road projects and works in partnership with local authorities, which are the road authorities for all roads, including national roads. In 2015, the NRA was merged with the Railway Procurement Agency, RPA, and the Roads Act was amended to include the function to secure the provision of or to provide such metro and light rail infrastructure as may be determined by the Minister or, in the greater Dublin area, by the NTA. Under the infrastructure guidelines, TII is the sponsoring agency and the NTA is the approving authority for metro and light railway projects.
The NDP sets priorities for investment generally over a ten-year period and is therefore important in determining which transport projects TII can progress. While the NDP outlines longer-term objectives, TII's funding to deliver those objectives is provided on a year-by-year basis. The Minister may set conditions in respect of these annual allocations. Currently, TII is progressing a number of nationally significant projects which are set out in the NDP and the climate action plan. Details of these are included in the appendices attached to my statement. Annual grant allocations to TII have been suboptimal over the first half of the current NDP. This has limited the advancement of many of these projects. Funding constraints have resulted, most profoundly last year and this year, in cuts to asset renewal activity across the national road network to ensure that sufficient funds were available to advance the Government’s priority projects. New infrastructure requires a commitment to the consequent cost of protecting and renewing the asset or the asset value will diminish.
To deliver national roads projects, TII operates in close partnership with local authorities through a regional management structure and engages on a regular basis to monitor delivery programmes and track expenditure. TII funds 11 national roads offices located around the country which are populated by local authority staff. Once annual grant allocations for roads projects are notified to TII by the Department of Transport, TII provides project specific annual allocations to each local authority. The grant allocations are then paid to the local authorities over the course of the year to reimburse costs incurred in the delivery of those projects.
TII has established processes and procedures that are aligned with the infrastructure guidelines to oversee the delivery of national road and greenway projects, as outlined in our project management guidelines, project appraisal guidelines and design standards. The Government's infrastructure guidelines include three approval gates to be approved by the approving authority. These are: approval gate 1, which allows submission for planning approval; approval gate 2, which allows commencement of procurement; and approval gate 3, which allows for entering a construction contract. Having successfully achieved approval gate 1, the sponsoring agency is required to obtain statutory planning approval before a capital infrastructure project can proceed.
Projects with an estimated capital cost in excess of €200 million are subject to additional external assurances by the Department of Transport and by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform, and additional approvals from Government for approval gates 1 and 3 and from the Minister of Transport for approval gate 2.
Given TII’s experience of delivering significant transport infrastructure, we are appreciative of having been invited to contribute to the review by the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation of barriers to infrastructure delivery. In this regard, I commend the telescoped approval approach used for the Adare bypass project last year, which accelerated the start of construction. Other issues which impact efficient delivery of infrastructure are the absence of flexible multi-annual funding for delivery agencies and the consequent lack of a credible portfolio of projects to generate market confidence.
The advantages of a funded portfolio of projects may be overlooked. The positive impact of such an approach was evident during the delivery of Ireland’s interurban motorway network.
That concludes my opening statement. My colleague and I will endeavour to provide any further information that members of the committee may require.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Now from the National Transport Authority, I call Mr. Hugh Creegan.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and the members for the invitation to appear before the committee today. I understand the committee wishes to discuss the NTA's role as the approving authority for public transport projects, including those set out in the current national development plan. To assist me in dealing with questions that may arise during the meeting, I am joined by Eoin Gillard, assistant director, transport investment.
One of the core functions of the National Transport Authority under its parent Act, the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008, is “to secure the ... provision of public transport infrastructure”. In undertaking this role, the NTA is required to achieve that provision, as far as possible, through Irish Rail in the case of heavy rail infrastructure and through Transport Infrastructure Ireland in the case of light rail and metro. The NTA acts as the approving authority for most public transport projects, with a small number of rail projects outside of the greater Dublin area falling outside of our statutory remit. In relation to the very large megaprojects, we act as the day-to-day approving authority for the DART+ programme, the BusConnects programme and MetroLink.
The approving authority role is set out in the Government’s infrastructure guidelines and is predominately to provide oversight of the delivery of a project, making key decisions on the project’s progression and monitoring the overall implementation of the relevant scheme. In undertaking its role as approving authority, the NTA has developed project approval guidelines, dividing the project life cycle into seven phases, setting out key decision points across those phases and establishing the relevant documentation to be provided in each case. The NTA has also developed cost management guidelines to assist implementing bodies with the development of appropriate scheme budgets in line with the requirements of the Government’s infrastructure guidelines and the NTA’s own project approval guidelines. Various other tools and systems have been developed to support the effective delivery of transport projects and ensure the fulfilment of the NTA’s role as approving authority for those schemes. In the interests of brevity, I have included an appendix providing information on a variety of ongoing projects being managed under the NTA’s capital programme. Further detail can be provided on any item as required. That concludes my opening remarks and I welcome any questions members of the committee may have.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will make a few very small opening points. I will direct them to the Department. The public will be a bit confused as to who does what here. We have the Department of Transport, the National Transport Authority and Transport Infrastructure Ireland and then we have organisations with which people are familiar such as Iarnród Éireann, Bus Éireann, CIÉ and the local authorities. Will the Department, within two weeks, send us a diagram as to who does what? I am listening to the Department of Transport responsible for policy and then I look at the NTA and it is responsible for strategic planning in its area. I do not get the difference or I am not sure of it. I know the Department holds the purse strings; I know that much. It seems as though a lot of the witnesses are doing a lot of things and the Department has an oversight and a funding role and things like that. I know it is a daily language for those who use the services but people who do not use the service may not get the specific differences between the metro, the light rail and the DART services. People who use them know them. The greater public who do not use the DART service do not know the difference between them. Will the Department provide a note to explain the difference between the three organisations because a lot of it seems similar? They all refer to planning and policy, designing and funding and the different gates. I want a bit of simplicity. The theme of our work across the board is probably going to be this as it is hard to know who is responsible for what. It is not a criticism, just that the system is so big and there are so many others involved. The Commission for Railway Regulation was mentioned. I do not know what role it has when it comes to Iarnród Éireann and the Department. I do not know if TII has a role there but it is in there somewhere as well. I heard its name mentioned. We need to have a clearer view at this Oireachtas committee. The witnesses know it by heart. They know the difference because they work on it at least nine to five every week but the public do not. Part of our job is for the public to understand what is going on here. I think the witnesses get what I am looking for.
The only question I have really is to TII. The opening statement read:
Annual grant allocations to TII have been suboptimal over the first half of the current NDP. This has limited the advancement of many of these projects. Funding constraints have resulted, most profoundly last year and this year, in cuts to asset renewal activity across the national road network to ensure that sufficient funds were available to advance the Government’s priority projects.
Will the witnesses from the TII and the Department explain the criteria by which it was decided what was held over and how important it was? Were some projects seen as just maintenance and renewal which could wait a year versus the projects that were vital to move ahead? That is my only question and then I will go to Deputy Neville.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
Very briefly, at a high level in terms of the NDP envelope over the past five years, to make the point from a departmental perspective, our allocation under NDP 2021 was €35 billion. It was weighted towards the second half of the NDP, so there was a more constrained funding envelope available within the first half of the NDP. Then, within the Department and across the various sectors, it was allocated in line with the then applicable programme for Government, which gives it the framework for some of the project level and programme level issues Mr. Walsh referred to. He may want to come in.
Mr. Peter Walsh:
Exactly as Mr. Doocey was explaining, the new roads programme was funded to the tune of €1.1 billion in the first five years and €4 billion in the second. We were progressing projects as best we could. There was approval for three projects that got up and running in the past year and half. These were the N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge project, the N21 Adare bypass, and the N28 Cork to Ringaskiddy project. It is difficult for anybody to predict when we are going to be in a position to progress. If you take the Cork to Ringaskiddy as an example, there was a judicial review of three years. Once it becomes clear and there is clear Government priority to enter the contract - the Minister approved the approval gate 2 and the Cabinet approved approval gate 3 - then we need to progress that as a priority. We did so but it resulted in the transfer of €40 million of last year's pavement money - the money we use to keep the pavements in good condition - to keep those projects going. This year we are in a similar circumstance. The reason I raise it is that I know the Department is fully aware of it and it knows what the requirements are into the future. As you say, you can suffer that for a year or two but in the longer term you really cannot. We are just trying to make sure people are aware of the consequences of building more asset using what is needed to keep the asset value.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses for that. One small question I forgot to ask was on the NDP review. It has been indicated at Government level that there is going to be a public consultation with a view to having that. Will a consultation have to be done by all or will there be one overall? Will each of the organisations have to make submissions? Most importantly, is there a mechanism for them to have a consultation with their paying consumers as part of the overall process or will that be done at departmental level? Will the witnesses explain to me what they think will happen in terms of consultation from their customers' point of view.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I will start, if that is okay, and then we will have both Mr. Creegan and Mr. Walsh as well from the agency level. Regarding what is going on with the NDP, at a departmental level, bilateral engagements both at official and ministerial level have kicked off most recently. Submissions have gone in from Departments, including from our Department. Our submission would have been informed by our own engagement with our agencies and with local authorities on the regional and local road side in terms of the requirements over the next five to ten years. That would form part of our initial submission into the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation and then there is ongoing engagement with that. There is then a public consultation which is run by the Department of public expenditure itself and it is open to people to make submissions, whether that is citizens directly or organisations, State or otherwise.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank all the witnesses for attending. I know they are very busy. We appreciate their attendance.
We see this as a key Department, considering all the issues we face as a country from a growth perspective. I am conscious I only have six minutes. I might jump around from person to person and ask people high-level and local-level questions. I will try to put the questions where they should be, but if someone else feels he or she has a better answer, all the better.
My first question is for Mr. Doocey. We had Uisce Éireann in here two weeks ago. It said it would need €10 billion between 2025 and 2029. I know the Department is different but, at the same time, from what we hear, it provides the funding. What level of budget do we think we will require over that period?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
Obviously, it is the subject of deliberations between us and our colleagues in the Department of public expenditure at the minute. To give a context to it, the NDP 2021-2030 allocated €35 billion to the Department, with €13 billion from 2021 to 2025 and €22 billion from 2026 to 2030. Since publication of the NDP 2021-2030, there has been an additional Government commitment of €500 million on the A5 road project, so that is €22.5 billion, and then there has been an additional windfall allocation of €300 million. Our base position, therefore, is €22.8 billion over 2026 to 2030, but that is based on the NDP. Since then, we have had new projects come in that have been developed or put in the pipeline over those five years. We have seen cost increases as well. That gives the Deputy a context as to what our starting position-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
So, it could be up on-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is €22 billion without any increase.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Fine. That is what I am wondering about.
I will jump to the NTA and Mr. Creegan. We get the opportunity to link in on some of the projects and we talked about the high-level funding. As regards the DART+ to Kilcock, which we have discussed before, what are the timelines at the moment for the DART+ to Maynooth and do we still envisage it ultimately going to Kilcock during that period?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
The DART+ to Maynooth has got approval from An Bord Pleanála, or the two judicial reviews, which I hope will get resolved soon. Therefore, it is available for construction, so we need to wait and see what comes out of the national development plan to see that the funding is. I assume that the funding will be there to start it but we just have to wait and see the outcome. That scheme was intended to go only as far as Maynooth and then it went a little further to accommodate a depot west of Maynooth. An Bord Pleanála did not approve the depot part of the project, so Irish Rail has to reapply for a new depot site. We are committed - it is in our transport strategy - to extending the DART out to Kilcock. There is an option selection stage going on for the new depot at the moment. We want to see what the outcome of that is because that will decide how easy or hard it is to extend as far as Kilcock.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
So, we believe we will try to get it out to Kilcock.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Brilliant. I thank Mr. Creegan for that.
As councillors, we would have worn our councillor hats when we looked for funding from the NTA. I want to use the example of a location on the Maynooth-to-Celbridge road in Maynooth, where there are two schools, the Gaelscoil and the ETB. We have had incidents happen. We have had children knocked down. I think the funding that is required for that project is between €300,000 and €500,000. We know that Kildare County Council requires NTA funding. What conversation happens in a situation like that and how can we get the NTA funding for such a project?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
I am aware of that project. There was a back-and-forth between us and the council over recent years on it. If it were capable of being done for €500,000, as the Deputy said, we would do it in a heartbeat, but it is a more expensive scheme. It will be a couple of million euro now. We have now reached a position where there is an agreed concept for that scheme. There is an issue down at the Straffan Road end of it where there might-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There has been a report done on it, has there not? It was referred to earlier. We might be able to get a lot of the items in on the first scale rather than having to go for the full-scale project.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
If we could push that forward, it would be beneficial.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
If the committee could, that would be great, but at the moment I believe the council would prefer to do a slightly better scheme. It is more expensive and we have reconciled ourselves to doing that better scheme if the council wants to do it. It requires a bit of land take at the Straffan Road end, but our view is to do the rest of it bar the 50 m down at the Straffan Road end and let that follow along afterwards. We would be in the market for a cheaper scheme if it were possible because it is probably a couple of million euro to do that scheme at the moment.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will use the example of another project. I believe this question is for TII. I refer to a second bridge at Celbridge, and I am sure there are a lot of similar examples. This is something we agreed in a local area plan in 2017. Money has been put towards it. Out of what pot would the funding for the bridge in Celbridge come and when will we see movement on it? Do we have to wait for the new national development plan to be given in the next few months? What will happen? That bridge is required for the population and is badly needed. How do we get that bridge into Celbridge?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is. The initial funding was.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The next tranche of funding will not come through Mr. O'Grady's Department.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They will come through the other funding.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Okay. Will they not be incorporated, though, as part of the national development plan?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Yes, but they will be separate.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It just shows the complexity, going back to what the Chair said at the start.
I could be here for another round but I am conscious of the six minutes.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses. I will ask a couple of questions. The Minister said in the Dáil recently - I say "recently", but it could have been a couple of months ago - that there had been a noted policy change in this Government compared to the previous Government with the abandonment of the 2:1 ratio in favour of public transport investment that had primarily been brought in by the former Minister, Eamon Ryan. The Minister basically refused to give a ratio as to how it would be broken down. How will a rebalancing of spending towards, say, roads affect the delivery of public transport and key infrastructure projects? Have the witnesses from the Department any idea as to what ratio the Minister will use and what the breakdown will be between active travel, public transport, roads, etc.?
I also want to ask about rail electrification. It is key to how we decarbonise our transport system. We are the worst in Europe. Only 2% of our heavy rail network is electrified. As regards the DART+ and the new bi-mode battery trains that have been ordered, is the intention to go out to Maynooth and up to Drogheda eventually with overhead line equipment, and if that happens, will that overhead line equipment be at the same 1.5 kV direct current as opposed to the European standard, which is 25 kV alternating current? What will happen in terms of electrifying the wider rail network? I am thinking of key spine routes like Dublin to Cork and Dublin to Belfast. If that happens, will that be done at 25 kV alternating current or the 1.5 kV direct current?
I also want to ask specifically about Limerick and the potential that is there for commuter rail. This is in the Limerick-Shannon metropolitan area transport strategy. It is also in the strategic rail review. Limerick is unique because there are four rail lines that intersperse at Colbert Station.
There is huge potential there. The infrastructure is there. It has not been ripped up. In some cases it works quite well with Limerick to Ennis and Limerick to Galway but with other areas, it works less well. There are basic things we are not doing properly like having properly timed trains in the immediate instance between Limerick and Castleconnell and Nenagh and Birdhill.
The previous Government announced plans to establish a network of commuter rail stations around Limerick. Where does that stand? Do we have a timeline? What are the witnesses' views around a rail spur for Shannon Airport. That could be done for around €200 million. The joint Oireachtas group on Shannon Airport made a submission to the NDP calling for this. We believe it is vital for connectivity and balanced regional development.
On BusConnects Limerick, why is it being delayed until 2027? Is there an issue with funding? If so, is it on the capital side or is it around staffing and resources? Can the witnesses confirm that when BusConnects Limerick is introduced that the full network that was announced and went out to public consultation be completely funded to be introduced as intended? Is there a definitive timeline?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
NTA colleagues may wish to deal with some of the detail. Going back to the overall structure of funding, the Deputy referred to recent comments by the Minister and I am not aware of the comments but the factual position was there was a previous programme for Government which had an explicit commitment around 2:1 new public transport and new roads-----
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is not in the new programme for Government.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
There is a revised programme for Government which we are working toward which does not have that explicit commitment in it. It also has a lot of strong commitments around public transport and delivery of strategically important projects. The revised NDP will be constructed in line with the new programme for Government. That is how these things work. I would also note that within the public transport programme, we have a huge range of projects, all of which have substantial cost, which are forming part of the consideration as part of the NDP review. Therefore while there is not an explicit commitment as part of this programme for Government those considerations will inform the development of the next NDP.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
However, does Mr. Doocey accept that cause and effect means that if that explicit commitment is not there that there will be a seeping away from a prioritisation of public transport towards more investment in roads than would have been seen under the previous Government and its programme for Government?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
No, not necessarily would be my honest assessment of where we stand. We will see with the NDP review what position we arrive at. The Deputy mentioned a number of projects there for the future. Much of that will be determined by what comes out in the NDP review and the position in which we find ourselves. I mentioned our starting position of €22.8 billion to Deputy Neville earlier, based on NDP 2021. That sought to achieve an awful lot on delivery on the public transport investment programme alone. Notwithstanding that there are new projects, some of which the Deputy just mentioned, which people are also seeking to advance. There is a huge challenge ahead of us over the next few years at a macro level in the transport programme.
Briefly, before I hand over to NTA colleagues on some of the specifics, the Deputy mentioned decarbonisation of the rail, the interface, DART+ programme, etc. In the all-island strategic rail review, we did look at the overall decarbonisation of the intercity and inter-regional network. That is a medium- to longer-term programme and it will be a programme of works taking many years between now and 2040, and beyond really. There are interfaces to be considered between that work and more immediate works such as the DART+ programme and ultimately Cork too.
I will hand over to my NTA colleagues.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
On rail electrification, we are currently purchasing a mixture of battery electric trains and fully electric trains. The intention is to start with the northern line up to Drogheda running battery electric trains but over time that will transition to a wires there and basically the train sets will become electric then.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is there a timeline for the transition to overhead electrification?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
We have a railway order application to An Bord Pleanála. We need to see what comes out of that first before we firm a timeline.
The Deputy mentioned Maynooth. It will be fully electrified from day 1. Similarly, the south west, which is out towards Cellbridge, is intended to be fully electrified on day 1.
Whether it is 1500V DC or 25kV, the DART will be 1500V. That is what went in on the railway order application. We will see what the decision is on other places on the wider network. Were I to guess, I think it is more likely to be the 25kV but we will wait and see. The Enterprise train sets being purchased are capable of being run under either voltage. They have dual-mode motors so they can run under either so that is not a problem.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will they include a diesel engine as well?
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Then one can remove it in time?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
We can alter the configuration as time goes on, yes. On the Limerick commuter rail, as the Deputy said it is part of the Limerick transport strategy. The work ongoing now is probably focused mainly on Moyross station and Ballysimon. Work is going on at both those locations. Moyross will be the one that will advance first.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
When will the planning application go in for Ballysimon?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
We will assume early next year, just to give the Deputy a working assumption.
The rail spur to Shannon Airport is in the transport strategy, as the Deputy will be aware. I do not think any work is ongoing on it at the moment but it is in there. In the past Irish Rail had identified a corridor for it.
On BusConnects Limerick, we said the rollout of the new network of services would now be 2027. That is because we have to have sufficient drivers. There is a very enlarged network from the current network. From memory, it is either 50% or 70% bigger than the current network.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Has Bus Éireann started recruiting those drivers?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Sorry, Deputy. We are well over time now.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We will come back to anyone answering questions on the second round. Deputy Tóibín is next.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I live in a commuter hell along with hundreds of thousands of people spending two to three hours getting in and out of Dublin daily. There is a massive cost in terms of spending money on cars but also a human cost of the pressure that puts on families. I have no doubt the level of anxiety among children is rising at the moment because parents are leaving at 7 a.m. and not back until 7 in the evening, etc. The majority of workers in my county leave the county every day to go to work. That happens in no other county. Navan is the biggest town in the country without a rail line. It is causing major difficulty for the people of Navan.
One of the major things I want to get out of this committee is to find out why infrastructurally things are taking so long and why they are costing so much. Those are the big questions we need to get to grips with.
Take the Navan to Dublin rail line. It was built in 1852 in three years with picks and shovels. The route option is taking three years at the moment. Why does the route option for the Navan to Dublin rail line take three years?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The date of 2024 to 2027 is given for that.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
We will take that. There is a lot of work in what is needed for planning application for An Bord Pleanála. The level of environmental surveys and pre-application work that needs to be done and the level of referencing of land ownerships, I can say from experience, takes a lot of time.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The length of time it takes is a function of the number of people working on it. If you have one person working on all that it will take a long time but if you have a team of maybe 50 people it will take far shorter. How many people would be working on those types of projects, for example? Can we not get more people working on it to accordion the length of time?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mr. Creegan can come back to us with that.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Even the railway order application is down for a number of years there too. My key concern around how long these projects are taking is this. If we put a team of, say, three or four consultants on a project then yes, it will take years to achieve.
Obviously, there is a major cost in the absence of this infrastructure. It will cost the same amount of money if we pay three consultants over three years or nine consultants in the one year. Can we not expedite these types of necessary steps for these projects?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
The Deputy raised a really good point about the cost of not doing things. The cost of us not delivering infrastructure is being missed in much of the discussion about the cost of delivering infrastructure. That is one aspect that we will be bringing into the work that is being led by the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, accelerating infrastructure task force which has been established is, as Mr. Walsh alluded to in his opening statement, looking at where the barriers to the timely delivery of infrastructure are. The Deputy referred to 1852. We all recognise that it was a completely different regulatory environment with different planning processes, but even if one considers the original DART in 1984 and the time for its roll-out - it took a few years and we should not kid ourselves - there has been a significant change and increase in the length of time now.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Going back to the point about the cost, we can say, if we do not regulate to this level, that there is a danger that this or that could happen and we can surmise the cost of that, but we are not counting the cost for the 80,000 people in one county who are living in excruciating circumstances annually because of the lack of that. In 12 years, Madrid built 112 km of metro. We have spent €300 million on metro north and not a shovel has been put into the ground. How can you spend €300 million on a project and not put a shovel into the ground? What level of regulation is swallowing that level of funds. Those are really badly needed funds in the country. It is mind-blowing that €300 million can be spent on any project without a shovel being put into the ground.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
From my end, before I hand over to Mr. Creegan, for a multi-million euro project like MetroLink, irrespective of the jurisdiction it is developed in, a hugely significant amount of money will be spent before shovels do get into the ground, to use the Deputy's terminology. I am not saying that the amount of money that is spent in Ireland is directly equivalent to the amount of money that is spent in other jurisdictions, but a significant proportion of a multi-billion euro project in the modern era, in a democracy such as our own, will be spent on the pre-planning processes. There are differences, which the Deputy is right to highlight, between common law jurisdictions such as ours and civil law jurisdictions such as Spain. There are notable differences in some elements of those processes which lead to reduced costs, but there is always a significant cost in the planning process for a multi-billion euro project. I would not diminish that.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A comparative analysis between our approach to metro north and how 112 km could be built in Madrid in a short time would be valuable to the committee. If we could get a report to the committee to say what saved time or money in Madrid-----
Mr. Garret Doocey:
If it helps, we can certainly come back to the Deputy on that. A World Bank report was published on the Madrid metro in 2005 or 2006, which effectively divided up the project by where the major cost savings were achieved. We can use that as a frame for our response to compare what happened there with what is happening in a jurisdiction such as our own.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is there any way that we can get an analysis of the level of regulations?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
That would be better awaited at the conclusion of the accelerating infrastructure task force because those are the types of issues it is looking at, rather than us providing it piecemeal. An analysis of the whole of infrastructure provision would be much more beneficial to the committee.
Ollie Crowe (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In Mr. Walsh's opening statement, the N6 Galway city ring road was mentioned as having the potential to go to construction in 2028, subject to planning permission. To state the completely obvious, Galway is crying out for it. It is really needed. It is costing significant investment in companies. It is doing untold damage. As Deputy Tóibín said, it is costing families time and health issues. It is never-ending at this stage. Will Mr. Walsh say what steps are required to be sure that it goes to construction in, as he says, 2028? We are well aware that it depends on planning permission. I want to know how Transport Infrastructure Ireland is preparing for that.
Mr. Peter Walsh:
It is a project that I was involved in over the years as inspector, regional manager and now as CEO. I know the frustration that is associated with it. We have had planning approval twice. We got planning approval and it was appealed through the High Court and the Supreme Court to the European court, which eventually decided that any impact on the qualifying interests of a special area of conservation, SAC, must be regarded as such that you could not get planning approval. With the Department's agreement, we then got up and running again with it. It is a different design the second time around. We sought to have more of a public transport element and to recognise the need to support many of the significant jobs in Galway city and release traffic from the city centre. We got planning approval for that, which was the subject of judicial reviews, which were eventually quashed and it was remitted to the board. Given the delay, we had to do all of the environmental surveys and studies again. They have now been submitted and the board has decided that they should be the subject of public consultation.
If I was to venture a guess about what hoops we need to go through, I would probably be wrong, because so far, we have believed that we have cleared every hurdle that was put in front of us and we are still not there. I am not sure I can answer. We have prepared, at some risk and with agreement, to move to the procurement phase, when and if it is approved and we can proceed. There is only a certain amount you can do because it could be a waste if you do not get planning approval.
Ollie Crowe (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Does Mr. Walsh believe that it will commence in 2028?
Mr. Peter Walsh:
If we get through the planning and do not have another judicial review, then it is entirely possible that we could start some work, because what we were looking at in some detail was the possibility of getting useful elements, not just for the ambition of trying to get moving on it but also in recognition of the fact that the congestion in Galway in significant areas is so substantial that even some of the slip roads, bridges and so on that are proposed as part of the scope of the project would create significant alleviation around Ballybrit and other areas. We would dearly like to. That is all I can say.
Ollie Crowe (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
That is fair enough. The National Transport Authority undertook a feasibility study last year with regard to light rail in Galway. The feasibility study showed that, under the right conditions, there could be a case for developing a light rail system in Galway city. As I think most people are aware, it is the capital of the west. There is enormous growth in Galway. It is expected that will continue to 2040 and 2050. First of all, we need a range of measures, including the ring road and light rail, to ensure the city's transport infrastructure is fit for purpose. Is any follow-up to last year's feasibility study regarding the light rail in Galway planned by the NTA or Transport Infrastructure Ireland?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
I will take that because we did the feasibility study there. That was an input to an updated Galway transport strategy. We are waiting to see what happens with the ring road before we finish that strategy. That feasibility study identified that there was the potential and enough patronage in the future to justify an east-west light rail line. We need to get the transport strategy finished, then, if there is a firm project in place, it can be brought forward and taking through the planning process. As the Senator knows, there is a plan for a major bus overhaul in Galway city, so that can be the precursor for the rail project in future. It can build up density and patronage along the route, then allow it to transition to light rail.
Ollie Crowe (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mr. Doocey he mentioned the redevelopment of Ceannt Station and the works at Oranmore expected to start next year, both of which are welcome developments. The second platform and the passing traffic at Oranmore have been described by Irish Rail as the first step towards fully double-tracking Galway to Athenry, as we know. Regarding the growth we are seeing on the line, there is a 30% increase in passengers this year. There is the new Heuston to Galway morning service, which has increased pre-9 a.m. arrivals into Galway, and services from Athenry increasing from two services to three. All services are consistently exceptionally busy. We need the Athenry to Galway section to be double-tracked as soon as possible. Will the witnesses give me an idea on what sort of timeframe we are looking at for this to be completed?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I can tell Senator Crowe what work is going on at present to look at that particular issue. As part of the exchanges with Deputy Sheehan earlier, we mentioned the all-island strategic rail review, which made a recommendation or had as a priority intervention - I cannot remember the exact term - the double-tracking from Athenry and improvements generally on the Dublin to Galway line. Following the publication of the all-island strategic rail review, we worked with the EIB on a prioritisation strategy for how we take forward the recommendations and what the priority interventions between now and 2030 are for shorter term quick wins. These are projects on a much smaller scale than what we are speaking about now. We also examined the priority projects we could take forward and see delivered over a ten- or 15-year horizon. The Dublin to Galway corridor improvements form part of the ten-to-15-year horizon. The work ongoing at present is to bring it to a more developed form of what we might do and to determine the costs and benefits around it. Ultimately, it will depend on funding. Subsequent to the NDP review, we will have a much better perspective on what is capable of being taken forward in the coming five and ten years.
Ollie Crowe (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
What is the timeframe for the western rail corridor? There seems to be great political will to do it but it still seems to be getting pushed out. Where does Mr. Doocey think we are with it?
Mr. Garret Doocey:
We are in a similar time environment as we are for many of the projects we will discuss in the course of the day. The new projects being proposed, or that have been proposed, all require funding. This funding needs to come from the NDP envelope. Until we see what the NDP envelope is, we will not be able to make a firm decision or a commitment. We await the finalisation of that process and political engagement thereafter.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee and for their opening statements. The committee was established to expedite projects and make sure we had proper oversight. I read the opening statements last night. TII stated that funding was provided on a year-by-year basis. Listening to the opening statement being read today, it all sounded very cumbersome. I am sure it hampers any long-term ambition and vision on delivering national projects. Has TII asked for multi-annual funding? If so, what reply has it received?
The NTA states it divides the life cycle of projects into seven phases. Is there any way of reducing the number of phases to make sure we can see quicker delivery of projects? Regarding DART+ West, it keeps being stated it will start in Maynooth but it is going to Kilcock. The depot was planned to be one mile outside of Kilcock. I went to every house in Kilcock and got them to make their submissions. I am sure the NTA received many of them. We got that extra mile and we need that extra mile. There will be no oral hearing on the DART+ West. How long will it take? We have to get double-tracking out to Kilcock. Is this being looked at? Will it be started by 2027? I have many more questions and I definitely need to come in with a second round but I ask the witnesses to answer these questions first.
Mr. Peter Walsh:
On multi-annual funding, I should explain there are two aspects to it. We have asked for it and the Department knows this. One element is knowing how much money we will get every year. In fairness to the Department, it has always endeavoured to do this. In the early 2000s, it was a very reliable number. What it told us we would get each year was pretty much what we got each year.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
TII is given a baseline.
Mr. Peter Walsh:
We are given an indication of what the funding is likely to be. This helps and we can certainly plan a lot better with it. We have a fairly large portfolio of projects and we can move stuff around in order to meet the total. What we are asking for, and what we would like to have, is the ability to move money across a number of years. If we knew what the overall five-year envelope might be, if it was not appropriate to spend it this year, it could move into another year. The multi-annual nature of it in that way would be more helpful. It would give the industry confidence that the projects in development would come through in due course. We have a minor works programme of safety improvements, which might be 3 km long projects throughout the country on the national road network. These are largely driven by safety concerns, either accident clusters or defined hazards. Since these projects are of relatively short duration, they are more flexible. What we have found in recent years is that we cannot bring them out because there has not been sufficient funding.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is not really working properly. It could be improved.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I know but it could be better.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
On that point, it is important for the committee to be aware, and no doubt members are already, that Mr. Walsh has raised two very good points on multi-annual funding. There are two aspects to it, as Mr. Walsh has referenced. One is giving certainty on what funding is to come over a three-year period or a five-year period. Ideally, it would be a five-year period. This is certainly in gift of the Department. We could state this was the indicative allocation for TII or the NTA over the next five years and they could plan on that basis. The other aspect of multi-annual funding, which Mr. Walsh has alluded to, is more prevalent in the private sector and runs into a fundamental issue with how we constitutionally and legislatively structure our annual Estimates. We can write to an agency and state this is it indicative allocation over a five-year period but every Department will always include a sentence immediately thereafter stating the above is subject to the annual Estimates process. As I understand it, the second element of multi-annual funding is constitutionally and legally impossible to do in a public sector environment.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
But Mr. Doocey could speak to us at this committee. Our job is to make sure we are delivering infrastructure and we can take comments on board.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
Deputy Cronin asked about the seven phases we had. It is important to state we try to make our projects as bureaucratically light as we can. Bureaucracy does not get anyone anywhere. One of the phases is an application form at the beginning of project and the final phase is review after the job has finished of what we have learned and what mistakes were made so we do not make them again. The phases in between are what people have to do. They usually have to go through a planning process and a tender process and it has to be constructed. For very small projects, we can roll up these phases to make them as bureaucratically light as we can. This works pretty well.
Regarding DART+, at the time the railway order was being prepared the official transport strategy for Dublin, based on its plans for years, stated that Maynooth was the end of the electrification. We then had an updated transport strategy, on which the Department and the Minister have signed off, to state it will be Kilcock. An Bord Pleanála truncated the scheme at Maynooth and we now have no depot. We have to ascertain where the depot will go. It makes a difference. If the depot is in the same place, we will still be within 1 km of Kilcock and it will make it very easy. If it is in a different place, we will have to see the consequences. I ask Deputy Cronin to give us three months and the depot position will be clarified. At that point, the position will be much clearer on Kilcock and the timeline. There will be double-tracking into Kilcock.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will Mr. Creegan let me know when this happens? I would really appreciate it.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Could the information come through the committee?
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I want to ask about fair fares for Kilcock. Please do not tell me my six minutes are up, a Chathaoirligh.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
They are. The Deputy will get another chance.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mine is not the only clock in the House.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will definitely be back in rounds 2 and 3.
Conor Sheehan (Limerick City, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Could we turn the clock on the wall on?
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We would like to see it. We used to see the clock.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I do not know how the mechanism works. We will inquire before the next meeting.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We used to be able to see it.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses for coming in. I have a number of questions and they can pick them up as they like.
Local Link is a fantastic service. Why was a decision taken not to build bus stops? We have a great service, which goes from town to town and it stops in many villages but there are no bus stops. It is shrouded in secrecy as to where the service is located. Who is responsible? Is it the Department, the NTA or the local councils? I would like to get a timeline on when the bus stops will be built.
The second issue is taxi licences. I appreciate that we are still short of the pre-Covid figures. The night-time economy is gasping for oxygen. I challenge the figures on the number of taxis operating at night-time. I extend my full respect to taxi drivers who make the decision to take alternative roles during the day, but this has left a total vacuum at night-time. What is the NTA's strategy or action plan for filling the void and when will it be delivered?
My third question relates to Leap cards. I want to help people travelling from places such as Offaly. We heard previous speakers talk about what happens in London and Madrid. Why are we not able to deliver a Leap card for the entire country in a 12-month period, when we see cities being able to roll it out overnight without any difficulty? I ask the witnesses to respond to those three questions first.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I will hand over to my colleagues in the NTA. The Leap card and next-generation ticketing will no doubt be mentioned by them. There might be a perception that other cities roll out such systems overnight, but they do not. It has taken many years of development for those systems, which are an improvement on the system we have, to be put in place. That is what we are seeking to achieve but it is taking many years of development to get there. I will hand over to my NTA colleagues.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
We agree with Deputy Clendennen. Bus stops are important so that people know how to use the service and to give the right impression of the service, among other things. Bus stops must be done through the local authority. We cannot parachute ourselves into all the counties of Ireland to put in the bus stops. We have provided an allocation of €500,000 to every local authority in the country to provide new bus stops, bus stop enhancements and bus shelters, which we issued to them free of charge. We have a central contract for their provision. We will be able to reallocate more money if it is needed, because some local authorities will underspend while others will overspend.
We are working with the local authorities to roll out more bus stops across all services, including Local Link. That is the short answer. In fairness to local authorities, we understand that they are under pressure, as everybody throws functions at them and asks them to do things. Some local authorities are grabbing this and running with it and doing a lot, while others, because of resources, are not accomplishing as much.
The number of drivers who are entering the taxi industry is going up. Last year we had more drivers entering than we had for ten years.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
But they are working during the day.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
I agree. That is the drivers' choice. They regard it as hard work at night. There is antisocial behaviour, abuse and all sorts of things that make it unattractive for a lot of drivers. Last year, we increased the fare they could charge at night by quite a bit to make it more attractive for drivers to go out at night. That is one action that has been taken that has seen some positive benefits.
The second thing we are doing in the cities – we have probably accomplished more in Dublin than we have in other cities – is putting in more night-time bus services. At the moment, we have 12 24-7 bus services in Dublin and 12 Nitelink services that operate two nights a week as well. We think that is the way to go – to roll out more night-time bus services to complement whatever number of taxis are there.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
With all due respect, I come from a rural area. We must be pragmatic about this. The NTA must be radical in its approach because the current model is simply not working. We are leaving people in a situation where there is, in effect, a curfew after 9 p.m. That is the current situation with public transport in rural areas.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
We have rolled out Connecting Ireland services and, while not all of them go past 9 p.m., a large number of them do. We must build on that. I accept that there is a lot more to be done.
Mr. Doocey mentioned some of the points about the Leap card. Our Leap card technology is 20 years old at this stage. It was rolled out in 2011, but its development started years ahead of that. We are in the process of replacing it with a new ticketing system that is much more capable of accepting debit cards, credit cards, mobile payments and all of that. We have signed a contract with a Spanish company, Indra, which specialises in doing this. It has been working on it in recent months and in the next couple of years we will see it rolling out. Eventually, we will get it rolled out across the country.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How long will it take to cover the entire country?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I will come back in now in the interests of saving time. I cannot understand why we do not put more money into the rehabilitation of roads over peat foundations. Essentially, we are throwing good money after bad because of the limited life span. Where the work has been done, it has been exceptionally good and the feedback is very positive. I encourage the NTA to do more in that area.
Colleagues will be familiar with the N52 link road from Tullamore to Kilbeggan. If we take the midlands in general, if I start in Portlaoise today and I go east, I can go 70 km in half an hour. If I want to go 70 km north or directly south of Portlaoise, the same distance will take double the time. We must start a conversation about opening up the midlands because every project we have seen done has been from east to west. We have done nothing through the spine of the midlands. Do the witnesses from the NTA have any thoughts on that or could they look at it?
Organisational structure was mentioned. I would like to see a flowchart of what goes on in regard to safer routes to school and active travel. There seem to be a dozen different steps. If I go to the local authority, it blames the NTA and if I go to the NTA, it blames the local authority. I would like to learn about the flowchart, the estimated timeframe and the pinch points.
I have quickly come to the realisation that we need planning stakeholders at every meeting. Everything seems to be either a planning or legal issue. If we do not get a sense of what is going on, we cannot break down the barriers. I appreciate the forthrightness of the witnesses and ask them to be frank in their response.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The NTA can take it as a request from the committee to come back in writing about the flowchart.
Mr. Peter Walsh:
I will take the question about the roads in the midlands to the north and south. They are largely national secondary roads with lower volumes. We did a comprehensive national secondary road needs study. National secondary roads are those roads with "N" designation and above the number "50". The M50 is the last of the primaries and anything above that is one of the national secondary roads.
We recognise that there are vital links such as the N80 and the N52 which carry significant amounts of traffic. They are not quite the same as the national primaries, but they are important. They are ones that we put significant effort into trying to keep in good condition. Bog ramparts are a particular problem. They are extremely expensive to rehabilitate comprehensively, so we have to work within the means we have. There are techniques to extend the life of the asset but it is very difficult. It is something we have a sensitivity to, and we are keeping an eye on bog ramparts. It is not that they are ignored. It is just by comparison with roads that have a good subgrade, it is a particularly tricky road type to deal with, and they suffer, especially with increased traffic loadings.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We must move on. I will give Deputy Clendennen a second chance.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
We allocated funding to Offaly County Council to deal with the peat issue in recent years. I agree that it has worked very well. We will work with the council to roll out additional funding in the coming years. We also introduced guidelines in that area for local authorities in the past six months. It is an area that will improve from a regional roads perspective anyway.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
At this stage I will move on to Senator Byrne and then Deputies McCormack and Lawlor. They are very welcome to the meeting. There will be a second round for them.
Cathal Byrne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses very much for coming before the committee. I see our role as trying to come up with recommendations to streamline the process for the delivery of key infrastructural projects. I am interested in hearing feedback on that theme.
I will focus exclusively on the delivery of motorways. I will concentrate on the Oilgate to Rosslare motorway in my area of Wexford.
I want to ask a couple of questions about the status of that at the moment. It appears to me that it is tied in with the climate action plan, the judicial reviews taken on the Galway ring road, the need for mitigation and active travel measures. I am interested in getting some feedback on how the witnesses see this playing out on these projects in the future. If we are trying to deliver a motorway, trying to incorporate footpaths and cycle lanes into that seems to be against what we are ultimately trying to achieve. I would like to get some feedback on how the witnesses are dealing with the impact of the decision to quash the planning permission for the Galway ring road because the climate action plan measures were not fully incorporated into it.
Ms Geraldine Fitzpatrick:
That project is progressing well. It has European funding as well, which has rewarded the progression of it. It is more or less at the stage of detailed design, with a view to getting ready to submit a business case. Once that happens, subject to approval, it will then go for planning approval. Obviously, we deliver on policy. The climate action plan is a part of national policy and therefore has to be considered in the development of the project. As part of the project, we are looking at other things, as the Senator mentioned. We look at the integration with public transport and active travel as part of the project. The project is advancing well. We are hoping the business case will be submitted and that we will be in a position to go to the planning stage next year.
Cathal Byrne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In a general sense, what is the extra layer that has been added now with the need in the climate action plan to mitigate the emissions from the motorway? What is the sense of time this has added to all of these projects? To use the example of the Oilgate to Rosslare motorway, my understanding was it was effectively in a place to be able to go for planning permission or that it was not far away. The council then said to us this has added approximately a year to the project. What is the overall impact of that on other projects outside of this one?
Mr. Peter Walsh:
There was a hiatus in progressing projects with the financial crisis. It took a while. Building on Recovery 2016-2021 was announced in 2015. There was the possibility of getting some projects going. That was not one of them and we did not get to try it again for some time.
It is difficult to say what the impact of the climate action plan is. One of the requirements is a reduction in the number of trips on the network. How can that be accommodated when what we are doing with projects is relieving pent-up demand? A significant number of the projects TII brings forward generate more trips. There is currently congestion. If we provide additional capacity, there will be more trips. The need to take a multimodal approach to try to have more of the trips taken by active travel where these are within the region of a particular project is something we are attempting to incorporate into the projects. The Senator is right to that extent. There is more work - multimodal work, if you like - to the extent where towns and villages have been bypassed. There is a lot more effort and scope. The projects have been expanded to include a focus on what will be done with the bypassed town as part of the scope. There is more work. The Senator is right, but-----
Cathal Byrne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
One of the things I have seen in the UK is that certain projects are designated as key critical national infrastructure. Does Mr. Walsh think that is something we should be looking at on some of these key projects?
Mr. Peter Walsh:
The short answer is "I do". As Mr. Doocey mentioned, the Department of public expenditure is currently undertaking a review of blockages to the delivery of infrastructure. We are participating in that. That is one of the ideas we believe would be helpful. If all State agencies were in a position to recognise a particular project the Government has designated to be of national interest and the obligation were then to be on all State agencies to help the progression of that project, it should help.
Cathal Byrne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Wexford County Council passed a motion to say the climate action and mitigation measures for active travel should simply be on the roads that are being replaced - for example, this is not the construction of a new motorway - and that the parts of the existing road network should simply be designated for the active travel mitigation measures. From Mr. Walsh's perspective, is that achievable or doable? Does that solve the problem, or is it more complex than that?
Mr. Peter Walsh:
It is a bit more complex than that. In general, TII would agree with that. However, if we take some roads that would be bypassed, such as some sections of the N22 in Cork, it is an extremely tortuous alignment to encourage people to go out there on bicycles without dealing with some sort of enhanced design to improve the safety for vulnerable road users. We cannot just tell them to use the old road. People will still be travelling at 80 km/h and it is an unfair competition between vulnerable road users and cars.
Tony McCormack (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses for coming in and for their opening statements. Deputy Clendennen and I are from the constituency of Offaly. I will not say that Deputy Clendennen has jumped the gun, but he has jumped in before me on a couple of different issues. I will try to be as quick as possible.
I cannot leave the N52 and the N80 alone. The N52 link road is important. I know we are being parochial and are not looking at it nationally, but for us it is way over capacity. There is one particular junction, I am not sure whether the witnesses are aware of it, namely, the high road junction at Durrow. I think works will be carried out there soon. It will sort out the issue, but it will help in some way, shape or form, to slow down the traffic. It may make it a little bit safer, but it will not sort it out completely. It is still a dangerous road that is over capacity. At times, there is probably something in region of approximately 19,000 vehicles travelling on it per day, which, as I said, is over capacity. It is growing at a rate of approximately 5% per year. The people using that road to take their kids to school are taking their lives and their children's lives into their own hands every day as they traverse that junction. People who are going to daily mass still have to use it. People also use it to go to the crèche beside the school. The local people use it to get back into Tullamore to head to Dublin to go about their daily business, be it work or whatever. We need this road. It is also an issue. IDA Ireland has told the Tullamore Chamber of Commerce that this road is required for us to attract more foreign direct investment into the area.
The Durrow High Cross Committee wants to set up an interpretative centre to show the fantastic monastic site of St. Colmcille's Well, some of the ruins of the old college and Durrow Abbey. The committee cannot build that interpretive centre until we get that new road because there is too much traffic there at the moment. We need it. For a second time, we are at the actual route selection stage. We have chosen a route, or rather, a route has been chosen through the consultation. The last time it went to design stage and was thrown out. For freedom and value for money for the Exchequer, we need to get this road done now. If we started it in the morning from where it is now, it would still be 2032 or 2033 before it was built. God knows what can happen in the meantime with the extra volume of traffic that will be travelling on it.
That brings me to the N80, which was spoken about by Deputy Clendennen. It is a vital link for us between north and south and connects the M5 with the M7. At the moment, if I try to travel from Tullamore to Portlaoise on the N80, it will take 45 or 50 minutes. Years ago, I was able to travel that in 20 minutes. I raise the frustration of road users as well.
There are a lot of accidents on that road. Luckily enough, we have not had that many fatalities but it is only a matter of time because it is getting busier and busier. We need to look at that and it needs to be taken care of sooner rather than later.
The other question I have relates to the rail system and twin tracking the links right across the country, but particularly from Dublin to Galway. Obviously, in the middle of that line is the Tullamore stop. If we are promoting living in towns outside of the Dublin area, we have to provide people with the infrastructure to be able to get to Dublin more easily. While the train service in Tullamore is good, it could be better given the growth in population that we are going to have over the next few years. Furthermore, with the advent of hybrid working and working from home, there are more opportunities for people to live in towns like Tullamore and other towns around the country that are on the rail lines. We need to have twin tracks so that we can have a higher volume of stock on the system at the same time and shorter travelling times between different areas.
I had some questions on roads on bogs but our guests have answered them and I am quite happy with the answers. I am delighted to see that Offaly County Council is working with them on that because approximately 30% of the roads in our county are on bog. It is very hard to maintain them. The pilot programmes that they have been run with Offaly County Council have been quite successful and I am hoping that they remain successful over the next few years. I hope we can go at it and roll it out across the road network that is on a peat base.
Mr. Peter Walsh:
On the N52 and the Tullamore to Kilbeggan stretch, which I am familiar with because it was a project I was dealing with for a number of years, it was frustrating that we could not make a connection between the N6 and the Tullamore bypass at the time. It is on the programme of works to be delivered. At the moment it is looking like it will be some time between 2028 and 2030 when it is brought forward. It is a relatively straightforward piece. It will have to go through that drumlin to connect but all I can say is that it is on our books. We are progressing it and will do, as the resources are available to us.
We do not really have a project on the N80. It will be a matter of protection, renewal and safety interventions so there is unlikely to be any increase in capacity there in the foreseeable future. In fact, with safety interventions, we may see speeds coming down and that is the reality of it.
Tony McCormack (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
As Deputy Clendennen said, is not just about having a road there for the current users and adding to capacity by putting in something that is more robust and bigger. It is also about opening up that gateway and providing roads infrastructure that will create more jobs in the midlands area. It is a connection piece. It is connecting the two motorways so that people can go north to south or south to north. At the moment, all we seem to be doing is connecting the cities with each other. We need to be able to connect the midlands with everywhere else as well.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
On the twin-tracking, the all-Ireland rail review was mentioned earlier and it has proposed significant enhancements of the rail system. There is a prioritisation approach going on now. It is worth saying that it is not automatically the case that the network must be twin tracked. What we are looking for is an increase in capacity. We can actually do things like passing loops, which is a short section of a double track, and with correct timetabling, we can get phenomenal uplift in an area-----
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the Chairman for allowing me to come in on this discussion. I want to speak on a couple of issues but principally about the Oilgate to Rosslare motorway. I am old enough and long enough at this game to have been around for the original route selection for that road. Of course, with the economic collapse, everything was sidelined. Then, as our guests have alluded to, the environmental impact assessments had to be redone and a whole new process commenced again. We went to the second round but we have seen two hold-ups on it. We had the change in the requirement for services. It went from every 80 km down to every 50 km so that delayed it for a little while. Then, of course, we had the active travel element of it. One of the things that concerns me is the impact it has on landowners and other people affected by it. It is absolutely huge. I am dealing with people who are 13 or 14 years in limbo, with sterilised and stigmatised land. One lady is 14 years awaiting the opportunity to apply for planning permission. We approached the team through the director of services in Wexford but we were basically told "sorry". There is about 2 yards of land involved here but because of the active travel element of it, the team could not give any concession whatsoever. I am also dealing with a family whose home and business are totally and completely affected by this and it has been going on for 14 years. I take it the active travel element is not going along the route of the new motorway but along the route of the existing infrastructure. Are we going to put cycle lanes on the motorway?
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
How can we not proceed in the knowledge that we will have a certain portion of this scheme dedicated to active travel, but the motorway will be unaffected by that active travel part? It will certainly be a component of it but it will not be connected to it. It is connected in some way, but indirectly. This whole thing has been held up for about 18 months as a result of the active travel element.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Okay. I was a councillor at this end of it as well and we are looking at about 18 months at this stage. I also want to talk about the impact on Rosslare Europort. This is not just a motorway in Wexford; it has a strategic role to play for the entire region. To give an example, prior to Brexit there were six sailings a week to mainland Europe but there are now 40 or more sailings, which has had a huge impact on traffic levels on the existing roadway from Oilgate to Rosslare. This is a vital piece of infrastructure that really needs to be pursued. Is there a guarantee of funding for this? I appreciate that we are looking at a cost in excess of €400 million. Is there a guarantee in that regard because we cannot go down a third route selection in a few years' time?
Finally, in relation to active travel, we have done some terrific work in Wexford. Our guests will probably be familiar with the Newtown Road scheme, which is quite close to my office. It almost adjoins Wexford Hospital and the Wexford County Council offices. It is a fabulous scheme. A few million euro was spent on it but I would say I have seen maybe half a dozen cyclists on it. Do not get me wrong, it is fabulous but I am just wondering if we are over-engineering our schemes in the context of what we are spending and the quality. It is a superb quality product that happens at the end of it. I think we are about to spend €1.2 million on the Wexford Hospital junction, as part of the active travel scheme, and run it across Wexford town. Wexford councillors at the time that I was on the council were campaigning vigorously for an active travel scheme from Wexford to Castlebridge, a large village about 3 miles outside Wexford town. It would have really enhanced the whole destination village concept, with people getting out walking or travelling on a bicycle to Castlebridge. However, the word that came back from the council was that all active travel projects had to be solely urban based. That was the policy and we could not spend money on a scheme like Wexford to Castlebridge because it had to spent in towns in urban areas. Is that the case? If so, can it be revisited? While the wonderful work in Newtown Road will, I am sure, eventually reap the dividends and rewards in terms of the number of people utilising it, at the moment that is not the case whereas Wexford to Castlebridge - there are other examples across the county - would certainly have attracted a lot of footfall and cyclists.
Mr. Garret Doocey:
I will start off with a brief response on the funding and then the active travel programme, with detail from Mr. Walsh on roads, and from Mr. Creegan on the active travel projects themselves.
On the funding, the Deputy asked about certainty. As Mr. Walsh said, the Oilgate scheme is it within TII's programme of works and ultimately the NDP review will provide that clarity that we all need regarding what the next five, and ultimately ten, years are. We will get that certainty in the next couple of weeks or months, That is where the overall funding certainty will come from. The scheme is within the TII planned programme of works.
On the active travel, Mr. Creegan will have greater detail on the specifics of the scheme. I am aware of the scheme the Deputy referred to. He raised an interesting point about the scheme that has gone on, which is of a very high quality, as he said. It is important to think of active travel in terms of the development of the network as a whole. This is where we optimise and maximise the utilisation of the individual schemes that go in. We all know of individual schemes that have been in development or developed over the past ten years even, but if it is just an isolated scheme on its own it will not maximise the benefit for the local community. It needs to be that network effect. We are starting to see the network effect in certain locations across the country. Limerick is an example of one of the five cities where it can be seen most. They are starting to see a network develop and that is where we get the utilisation of it. The NTA-----
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am just wondering if we are overengineering to the extent where we could be stretching our money better.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
We agree that a lot of local authorities are learning their way through building these types of schemes. They are a new type of infrastructure for them and they might seem very simple but actually they are more complex than people might think. We have tried, and continually try, to reduce the cost of the schemes. We produced a low-cost guidance note, which we issue to local authorities. We arrange webinars and give training and we continue to do that. In fairness, most local authorities are embracing that now. It is always going to be a specific solution for every scheme and it is hard to be general but they now have a portfolio of lower-cost ways of building it than the Rolls Royce version that occurred in some places.
On the urban-based policy only, I kind of understand how that has emerged. We have been saying generally that when it comes to a choice between schemes, we favour the ones that get more usage, which is usually in urban areas but there is no policy preventing us doing schemes outside of urban areas. Generally we find that some footpaths schemes might be problematic in places with not a lot of use, but we are definitely doing non-urban schemes in lots of places around the country.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is not the case that the money is specific. We were told on numerous occasions that the money was specific to urban-based projects.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
No, it is not. I believe that it is a translation of a statement, which would be if there were a choice to be made between projects, we would prefer to benefit the project that got the highest usage, which is likely to be in urban areas. Sometimes that gets translated, exactly as the Deputy just said there, which is not the case. If it is a good project and is a non-urban area, that is fine and we can fund it.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There is an opportunity if members want to come in a second time. I will take them in the same sequence as the first round: Deputies Neville, Sheehan, Cronin, and Clendennen. I ask speakers be a little tighter on time.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A maximum of five minutes apiece. Members should keep the questions short so they can get the answer.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I used public transport to get here this morning. I used a train and a bus. I am not sure if I will get the bus or train home. We went into Croke Park on Sunday and it was an amazing service into Drumcondra and coming back out again. A huge amount of work has been done on something like that. The bus gets people to school and I can see the way things have improved with the times. We have had huge improvements. The development of the greenway has been very positive as well in our area. The next phase of the Leixlip to Maynooth greenway is coming to completion. We have had some significant upgrades and improvements over time, not to mind the motorway infrastructure. I am not coming from a negative viewpoint at all but one of the overarching aspects of this is that there just seems to be that almost lack of information. That is something that always comes up with us as public representatives. It is like how do we know when is this or that or why can we not have such a thing? We talked about the bridge at Celbridge earlier but, for example, it is like when money gets put in from the urban regeneration and development fund perhaps in 2021 for something that was included in the local area plan in 2017. We are here four years later asking what is going on and where it is now. It might be stuck in the board or wherever but we do not seem to have those route maps along the way. If I was to come along with any overarching theme, this is it. It is interesting that everybody member had a lot of similar questions or topics in their different areas. There is a risk that we are being seen as parochial as politicians asking about projects in our individual areas but all we can do is speak to our own experiences in those areas because ultimately this is how we can affect them. We must look at these issues in an overarching way, which is what we do on this committee. I know I am not asking a question here but it is worth saying. By bringing up Leixlip, or my colleagues bringing up Oilgate and their individual areas, all we are doing is seeing where the blockages are, and I am actually seeing the trend in my own area.
I have a question for the NTA. On 16 June there will be a change in the bus fares in the broader Dublin area. Is the €2 base fare increasing to €2.40? Can I clarify that? Correct me if I am wrong. I also wish to clarify what the difference is between the Dublin city travel fare and the Dublin commuter bus travel fare? If the witnesses do not know, that is fine. I was looking at them and it was not self-evident to me. With regard to the zone map, will it be the same for the trains as for the bus? Those are my specific questions.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I was just wondering because there is a Dublin city travel fare and a Dublin commuter bus travel fare band. One is €2 and one is €2.40.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Mr. Creegan can come back-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I know and that is what made me question it. It does not seem self-evident. I just thought I would ask. I know it is-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is not a major issue but I was curious because that might be the type of question I will be asked.
We often hear about ghost buses running. I know Dublin Bus and CIÉ officials are not present but just does this issue come under the NTA remit? How does that work?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
It very much does. There is an automatic vehicle location technology on buses and that feeds information into a system we have, which will put it out onto an app and street signs. We are aware that on some occasions the right information is not appearing. We have a team of three or four people who are chasing down every step of that process to see where the problem might be. Often if the service is cancelled, it has not been cancelled in a manner promptly enough such that can be displayed on our system. In other cases, we may have an issue that the antenna on the bus is not correctly sending the signal as to where it is and therefore the information is not being displayed. We have a number of people working on with the idea of debugging as many of these things as we can and debugging the process. Then we have a larger project, which is to replace that old system with a brand new automatic vehicle location system. This will be rolled out on the bus fleet during next year. We will have a new system next year which will be a whole lot better.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I have another question-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am at 4 minutes and 47 seconds. Is the Sallins train station under the NTA or CIÉ, specifically for parking? I am just using this as an example. Where would that sit? There is a greater need for parking at Sallins train station.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Will Sallins be included in the increased funding for improved parking, or park and ride? I know it is a tight spot.
Mr. Eoin Gillard:
About five years ago additional parking was provided that at Sallins through the provision of a private car park being made available for that. We have seen with the introduction of the revised fare system now the cost of travelling from places like Newbridge is cheaper.
Since it was implemented in April, we have seen an uplift in the number of people using Newbridge and a drop in the number of people using Sallins. We will monitor that over the next couple of months to see the impact of those fare changes and then see if the same capacity issues are in place. We can then start to consider whether there are further requirements for enhancements.
Cathal Byrne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I return to commuter rail for Limerick. The witnesses mentioned that Ballysimon will probably go for planning next year. What is the position regarding further stations at places like Corbally and the Parkway roundabout? Will the Ballysimon station include park and ride? I presume it will as that is the purpose of it. Is there an update on the park and ride at the Eli Lilly site in Raheen Business Park?
I also wanted to ask about the shortage of taxis, which is a significant issue in Limerick city. I know there was a suggestion at one point in time from John Moran, who is now the mayor of Limerick, that Limerick could be used as pilot for Uber or another ride-sharing service. That was kiboshed. Has any consideration been given to looking at something like ride sharing as a way of dealing with the chronic taxi shortage in Limerick?
Cathal Byrne (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Is there any timeline for Ballysimon?
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
It is better if we come back to the Senator rather than give him the wrong timeline. Uber operates in Ireland but it operates as part of the regulated taxi industry. The legislation does not facilitate the type of ride-sharing service that is envisaged there so there are no plans to open to a ride-sharing service.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
There are so many new services. It is great to see new services coming on stream but they are mainly privatised. An instance in my constituency involves route 821, which serves Caragh. The bus is not turning up or a proper bus does not turn up and it is a half-sized bus. There was an upsetting experience recently with a constituent with an intellectual disability who uses that bus to get to work. I contacted Martleys, which is the private company that delivers that service, three times but it has not got back to me. What kind of oversight applies to a privatised route like that to make sure the company is providing an appropriate service and is answerable to its customers?
Mr. Gillard spoke about the fair fares. Kilcock and Sallins are in zone two for rail. Fares there have gone up. Yes, it has had a great effect and I know my colleague in south Kildare was delighted with the rate reduction but, unfortunately, it has affected zone two very badly. I know the NTA's fares determination dictates that increase. Is there any chance that it could look at this? I am a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Climate, Environment and Energy as well. Fares should not be going up because people will be less inclined to use public transport. Fares for children for a one-way trip to Dublin have increased from 65 cent to €1.95. Adult fares have gone up from €3 to €3.90. The NTA has done a great job but we need to look at that anomaly.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
The fare system before we brought in the change was a legacy system dating back decades and there were all sorts of inequities in it. We believe we have put, to pardon the pun, a fairer system in place now. We have tried to do it on a revenue-neutral basis. We did not get any extra funding so there have been pluses and minuses. Lots of people got pluses while some people have got minuses. We accept that the increase in the child fare from 65 cent to €1.95 referred to by the Deputy is a significant increase. By September, we should have a product on the Leap card that will be a weekly child fare, which will be at a much lower level than it currently is. It is currently €16. We will bring it well down. This should prove quite attractive to people sending children to school and, hopefully, alleviate some of those concerns.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In fairness, most children go to school in Sallins or Naas so if children are travelling, they are travelling once a week. The adult fare has also been affected. Many people work three days per week so they are not getting full advantage of the five days on the Leap card. We need to look at this again.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
A vote has been called in the Chamber. It is a pity as we are at the final furlong.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I am happy to come back after the vote. It is possibly just one vote.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We are nearly there. It is unfortunate. There are probably only ten minutes left in the meeting but the Dáil supersedes everything else.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Taking into account that some people work three or four days a week in Dublin and two days a week from home, that means the increase has gone from €3 to €5 if they work four days a week in Dublin and more than that if they work two days a week from home. I would love if the NTA looked at that again. That comes under its remit.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
We are happy to try to deal with some of the hard cases. The child fare is the hardest one of all. Another one we are seeing is whether it is technically possible for us to do a fare between different zones. At the moment, the fares are targeted from wherever you are towards Dublin and it covers all the journeys in between but we may be able to do another fare that just covers from zones 2 to 3 and zones 3 to 4. We are seeing whether that is technically possible with the system we have.
The overall picture is what I outlined. There was an unfair, inequitable system there before. We think what we have now is much more equitable. We accept there are winners and losers in it and we are trying to put in some fixes, particularly on the child fares and maybe on the other ones to see if we can take the hardest cases out of it. In the long term, we would be reticent to reverse. We could not justify some of the steep increases we had at the end of commuter zone to the intercity zones previously. We would be loath to reverse in that direction.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
With the climate crisis we are facing, we cannot be looking at a case where fares on public transport are increasing. We have to-----
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It will be kept under review. I thank Mr. Creegan
Mr. Garret Doocey:
From the departmental perspective in the context of the climate action plan and increasing the numbers using public transport, there are results, surveys and evidence - domestic, and certainly international - that show to attract people to public transport, the biggest drivers are availability - is there a service?: frequency, how often does it show up?; and reliability, will it show up when it is meant to show up? They are the three big drivers of getting people onto public transport. Affordability is absolutely one of the issues but it is nowhere near as big a driver as those other three. That is the evidence.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
With the cost-of-living crisis, I am getting a lot of-----
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Following up on my previous point, I formally request the action plan on the night-time economy, particularly from a rural perspective. I fully acknowledge the work that has been done in large cities and larger towns but how is it planned to actively address the issues that are there at the moment? There are towns and villages with literally no transport after dark. The night-time piece is particularly important. We have seen a decimation of our nightclubs, in particular, as people just cannot get home in the early hours of the morning.
How will the NTA address that and what is the timeframe? I would appreciate a formal response with its action plan on that.
Town bus services and the Local Link are fantastic services. When I highlight issues, it is to build and strengthen it rather than criticise it. Edenderry with a population of 8,000 has multiple bus stops and yet Tullamore with double the population does not have dedicated bus services. I read the NTA report indicating the towns in the pipeline. How does it determine what town is next on the priority list? Does population come into that evaluation process? I am sure this is replicated throughout the country, but I am best served by giving local examples. With a town like Birr and a capital town like Tullamore in a particular county where there is a private operator, it is following a commercially viable model, which is understandable. Where there are gaps in the service, how does the NTA plan to intervene?
I return to the flowchart. Looking at some of the funding allocations that are coming out now for flood mitigation, it could be on a byroad 20 km from the nearest town and that has to go to the Department for approval. We seem to have stripped autonomy from local authorities. It is now all about specific projects rather than schemes. I would be happy to get the witnesses' thoughts about this. Where there is flooding on the side of a mountain and a local engineer has put an application together to go to Dublin to get approval, we would be much better served recognising that this is all about local knowledge. Should there not be more autonomy at local level, particularly with area engineers, which would strip out a lot of this process? I will give one example. We have talked about roadmaps, pinch points, planning and all the rest of it. Where we have a potential solution with local area engineers working with local public representatives, surely we should be letting the funding follow directly to individual projects rather than saying the Department has a climate mitigation or flood risk mitigation scheme with €50,000 for Offaly and asking the council to send the Department its thoughts on how the council wants to spend it. Surely we should be giving more autonomy to local authorities.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
We will prepare a note on the plans we have in place to improve night-time services in rural areas.
The Deputy asked how we evaluated which towns were next. There is not a single formula there. We need to take account of things like whether the town has services running through it. There are lots of towns like that and those through services often provide an adequate service to deal with it most of the time. If a commercial service is already providing some services, we need to be careful. We cannot parachute in a subsidised service and put the existing service out of business. It is a judgment call and it is usually driven by what we believe is the real demand - the unmet demand - for the service in a particular area. We have a whole portfolio of towns across the country that we would like to do. It is a matter of having enough funding, enough drivers and enough vehicles to cover all that. It is not a bureaucratic formula. We try to take all the relevant factors into account and identify where the greatest needs are.
Mr. David O'Grady:
On the regional roads, we engage extensively with the local authorities on the annual grants. For the restoration and improvement programme, we allocate based on length of road. The local engineers have the autonomy as to where that goes.
We have been allocating funding to the climate adaptation piece since 2021. It is a very detailed area and we have limited funding for it. We have a mechanism for calculating BCRs for that to ensure that funding is targeted in the right areas. In the NDP review we are looking at an adaptation piece to try to improve on that and allocate more money in that area. It is a very sensitive area. We also need to investigate slope embankments. It has been funded since 2021 and I hope it will increase in the coming years.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
My point is that the decision making lies with the Department and not with the local engineer. The local engineer could send five projects to the Department, but the Department basically gives it the green light. The councils literally have no decision-making power and are just the implementing partners, as such.
Mr. David O'Grady:
At time of application, we seek to find out what they want. We usually try to facilitate that. At the end of the day, we have limited funding to allocate. We need to try to get the best bang for our buck in that area. If we have a BCR for a scheme that is further down the list, we will try to allocate that as well. Some of the schemes they put in are extremely expensive. At the moment, we do not add that. It is just to try to get the maximum amount from the funding that we have.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Essentially, the decision making will not be going back to the local authority.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I believe Mr. Walsh and Ms Fitzpatrick were going to answer the question about the funding for the Oilgate to Rosslare project. I ask them to shed some light on that.
Given that I believe in excess of €150 million has been spent on Rosslare Europort through the Brexit adjustment fund to make it a smart port, improve the customs facilities there, etc., can anything be done from a railway point of view? A number of years ago, the terminal at Rosslare Europort was moved to an area that was unsuitable for foot passengers. At other ports, passengers get off the boat and the train is almost alongside. Can anything be done to make improvements, possibly increasing the number of foot passengers and providing a more convenient service? There was a joke in the past that, as the boat was coming into Rosslare, the train was pulling out because there did not seem to be any co-ordination between the two. I am not sure if that is still the case. However, some works on the terminal would be most welcome.
Mr. Peter Walsh:
We have no guarantee on funding. Projects will be progressed. The outcome of the review of the NDP will bring more light to it. We utilise the funding available to us to progress as many projects as we can in a given year. There is never a specific allocation to a specific project because there are so many variables that we could not do that.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Where does this project rank, given its strategic nature? Is it in the top five in the country?
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I worked with a Minister at the time who had a particular interest in those, but anyway-----
Mr. Peter Walsh:
Political priorities do occur. We progress the projects. The Deputy can take it that the progression of projects is something like the Grand National. We need to have a lot of runners in the race because there are so many hurdles they all have to pass that if any of them are to reach the finish line, we need to have a lot of them out there. We will be bringing the full portfolio of projects forward and then depending on what is in a position to move and the available funding, they will move. Even in any given year, the best use of available funding will be a priority. Once a project reaches the stage of construction, there is-----
Mr. Peter Walsh:
-----an absolute commitment to meeting the requirements specified. One of the principles we have always followed is that we will not leave a local authority holding a bill. We understand that a commitment relating to a particular contract needs to be met. Prior to having planning approval, the timelines-----
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Would TII have any idea of much has been spent on both iterations of this project to date?
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Would it be many millions of euro?
Mr. Peter Walsh:
If the Deputy would like, we can come back to the committee with the amount. However, for a specific project I do not want to be guessing numbers.
The Deputy asked about interurban connections for active travel. The national cycle network has been identified and is at the beginning of being delivered. While the NTA's CycleConnects project is largely focused on urban areas, the national cycle network's objective is to connect urban areas. I cannot remember the threshold for the sizes of towns, but-----
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
The reason I asked was because the specific project to which I referred is a junction to a junction. At the end of each junction, it does not go anywhere else. I appreciate that it is a piece of the jigsaw in terms of future-proofing. There are other projects that start in a town and end in a village. Such projects can be deemed useful for end users.
Mr. Peter Walsh:
Local authorities are very good at progressing those projects. If we take the greenway between New Ross and Waterford, however, there is a frustration on everyone's behalf that we have not been able to get the full connection completed. The reasons for that are many and varied. I would not like to suggest that the local authorities are doing anything other than their level best to resolve them.
George Lawlor (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We have an excellent active travel team in Wexford. Its members informed me that under the policy, they were being told it was not to be outside urban areas. I am not sure if that was accidental or intended to drive their particular projects.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Before we wrap up, I call Deputy Cronin.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
With the bells going off and all the rest of it, I am not sure if Mr. Creegan replied to my question about private providers. How can we ensure they are providing an appropriate and reliable service? To whom are they answerable? Instead of writing to Martleys, should I be writing to the NTA?
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is a Local Link service.
Mr. Hugh Creegan:
If it is a Local Link service, it is under contract to us. I am not sure what this service is. If it is under contract to us, we have a set of defined requirements in the contract that the provider must perform. It does not get paid if it does not perform. We have other tools and eventually terminate the contract if the company is not delivering a satisfactory level of service. If it is a Local Link service, it is contracted to us. The alternative is that it is a commercial service, in which case we do not have any control over it. Will the Deputy remind me of the number of the service?
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is the 821 route. It affects a young man with an intellectual disability. It prevents him from going to work. It is important for people with intellectual disabilities to be able to go to work. Often, they are in receipt of supports and for him to have a job to perform and to know he is important in that role is important.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is important that he is giving.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
On a similar note, does a service such as the Airport Hopper come under the remit of the NTA?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Before we conclude, I want to put a few quick points to the witnesses. This is a new committee. It is the first time there has been a committee for infrastructure and capital projects. We want to ensure delivery. We want to start from a base of information. All of us know that projects always take longer and cost more. The best way for us to judge what we are doing is to have baseline figures. That will help everybody involved, across the Government and the Oireachtas, to understand what is going on here.
Various projects were mentioned in the Department's opening statement. There was a list of investments under the NDP, including the N4 Collooney scheme. I will not mention the rest of the projects but Mr. Doocey knows the paragraph to which I am referring.
Another paragraph of the opening statement referred to other road programmes and other N roads. There was mention of Ballaghaderreen, the M28 and the Adare bypass. Mr. Doocey mentioned the Athy southern relief road. He moved on to notable projects. For public transport, he mentioned BusConnects Dublin, the DART, the DART+ and the Donegal TEN-T. The appendix to the Department's submission included a big chart outlining the major road projects that are under construction, projects that are proceeding to construction, projects that are at the planning approval stage and projects that will go for planning approval in late 2025 or 2026. Over the page are projects that will proceed to planning in 2026 and 2027. There are also projects for which planning will be in the pipeline for 2028 to 2030. Some of those projects are now completed while others are under construction or are going for planning approval. Starting with the projects that have been completed, and I am only taking the projects listed by Mr. Doocey in his opening statement, I want a paragraph. When was each project first mooted? When was the first time the concept landed on a Minister's desk? I am not talking about a planning application, just the concept. When a project was first mooted in the Department or wherever else, what was the anticipated completed date? What was the estimated cost for the project on day one? I also want to know the actual completion date and final cost. I want the same for the projects that are currently in the system. What was the original cost estimate for each of those projects? What was the estimated timetable? For those projects that have not been completed, what is the estimated completion date and cost? I want the same exercise in respect of the other projects.
We at this committee, if we are to have any purpose and help the State and the Oireachtas, need that information. All we can judge future performance against is past performance. I want to see the accuracy of estimates at day one versus the outcome. That will give us an indication of how the system in Ireland actually works. At the start of a project, we can say we hope it will be completed in eight years' time. It might happen in eight years but just as easily, it might take 18 years. The cost could be ten times what was originally mooted. The project may have increased in complexity and the nature of the work may have expanded. We know all that. It is the nature of projects. However, it should have been known to some extent on day one. A project may grow from the estimates on day one. We can only judge past performance for all these projects if we have those yardsticks to go by. When witnesses such as those before the committee today come in with a new project with an estimated cost of €120 million that will be completed in six years, we can say that no other project has ever matched that timeline or original ballpark figure. We can use figures with lowball estimates. We get in a low figure, the project will creep through the system and we will have a decade to find the money as we go along. That does not help delivery or public confidence in how we do things in this country. If we have a yardstick to go by, we can measure things like that from now on.
I will move to bus stops. I want to know the ten most expensive and the ten most economical bus stops. Bus stops have gone into Laois. Some were excellently done and were simple and straightforward. Other bus stops required lorry loads of ready mix, tens of tonnes of concrete, long slipways and barriers. I know wheelchair accessibility requires an increase in height. Those bus stops must have cost a fortune. I am not saying the work did not need to be done, but people would like an indication when a new stop is being installed. I am sure the cost varies enormously. I can picture a few that I am talking about. I am sure one could build a house for the same price as some of the buses that have been installed on the basis of the amount of work I have seen going in. We want information on the bus stops that have been completed in the past 12, 18 or 24 months, whichever is convenient for the witnesses. We want the original estimate and the final cost. To be fair to our witnesses, we also want examples of bus stop projects that worked out to be very economical. I know they will tell us that there were factors such as road safety involved and we need to know that.
I will move to consider local matters. The N80 has been mentioned. It was mentioned by Deputy Lawlor in the important context of what has happened since Brexit. The N80, as the witnesses know, goes through the midlands. It goes through Abbeyleix, Portlaoise, Mountmellick and Tullamore, right through the midlands.
It is a very important route and traffic has increased enormously since Brexit. The problem in Mountmellick is that there is a narrow T junction and traffic cannot get around it. I know there was planning for a relief road a decade or 15 years ago and it fell through. An Bord Pleanála or somebody might have shot it down. Is there any plan for this now because traffic has increased enormously since then?
There are two final issues. One is extending the Leap card down to Portlaoise. It is being rolled out along the main line. I think it has come to Kildare and Monasterevin is probably along the route. The other issue - I am expecting a positive answer - is that the last train out of Dublin to Portlaoise is at approximately 10:15 p.m. There are 30 or so services from Portlaoise to Dublin. They start at 5.30 a.m., which is great. The carpark is usually full before 8 a.m. I do not know how you get parking near the train station. It is a sign of success that so many people are coming to take the train. That is a positive and a sign of success but we need a later train for people working late or who have a reason to be out late. We could do with one leaving Dublin after 11 p.m. I hope this can be in the next timetable.
I thank the witnesses for their time. We are here after 6 p.m. - we did have a vote - but I will let them come in now. In this committee, we want to be about our business. We are up and running a few weeks now and others have not complied so from now on, we want the answers received within two weeks. If the witnesses only have 80% of the answers, give us the 80% and the rest can follow a week or so later. We do not want in five weeks' time to have not received answers to anything. If it can all be done in a fortnight, well and good, but whatever can be sent within the fortnight, get it to us, and we will wait the other couple of weeks if we must for some of the more complicated answers.
Mr. Peter Walsh:
I understand the committee's desire to have a baseline to work against. I am concerned that if we go back to the very first time something was conceived of, it will be decades back. By way of reassurance, the last six projects we funded have been delivered from Collooney-Castlebaldwin through to-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Okay. I will keep it simple. Let us confine it to projects that were completed in recent years. I am not looking for old projects. I am asking about the ones under the current development plan that are listed in the witnesses' document.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
It is inevitable but sometimes it is better for people to know. What I am trying to achieve here is not just getting things delivered but also restoring public confidence, which we have lost.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
We made the point that we are not going to discuss the national children's hospital here. The public loses confidence in public authorities when they come with a figure for a project but eight years later, that figure has no relationship with the original-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
This is great news. I look forward to receiving good news. I am not a negative person. We need a baseline for when an organisation talks to us-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context
In four years' time, we will still be here.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
Exactly. We will be here and do not want to hear that the figure has gone up by 60%. The last question, which was touched on before, relates to every project. I want to know the construction cost versus the non-construction cost. I am conscious that there was a time when we were doing motorways when it was probably 80% construction. Years ago, a stretch of the M50 towards Dundrum - I am speaking generally, subject to correction - had a non-construction cost, which might include land acquisition as well, that was greater than the construction cost. We need to get a barometer for whether the non-construction cost has been creeping up as a percentage of the total project. I believe the witnesses know what I am coming at here.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context
I thank the witnesses who have been very helpful. I am sorry that they have been here several hours but hopefully the information we get here will be in the public interest. We look forward to receiving that information.