Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 28 May 2025
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport
Policy, Governance, Expenditure and Administration at RTÉ: Discussion
2:00 am
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have received no apologies. I expect a full turnout from the committee.
Today we are engaging on matters relating to policy, governance, expenditure and administration at RTÉ. The meeting has been convened with the chair to the board of RTÉ, the RTÉ director general and his leadership team and relevant officials from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media to discuss matters relating to policy, governance, expenditure and administration at RTÉ.
For today's session, the committee has given notice it wishes to seek clarification from today’s witnesses on relevant matters including, but not exclusive to, the following: impairments in the writedown of sums relating to enterprise, resource, planning, ERP project; PRSI classification and related currency and legacy employment issues; RTÉ redundancy schemes; and RTÉ’s ongoing plans for transformation.
I warmly welcome the following witnesses from RTÉ: Mr. Terence O'Rourke, board chairperson; Mr. Kevin Bakhurst, director general; Mr. Adrian Lynch, deputy director general and director of audience channels and marketing; Mr. Daniel Coady, director of legal affairs; Ms Deirdre McCarthy, director of news and current affairs; Ms Eimear Cusack, director of human resources; Mr. Gavin Deans, director of commercial; Ms Mari Hurley, chief financial officer; Ms Patricia Monahan, director of audio; Mr. Richard Waghorn, chief technology officer and director of operations; and Mr. Steve Carson, director of video. From the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, which will change its title soon, I understand, I welcome the Secretary General, Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh, who is joined by officials from the Department’s media and broadcasting division, namely, Ms Tríona Quill, assistant secretary, and Mr. Stephen Ryan, principal officer.
Opening statements have been received from the chair to the board of RTÉ, its director general and the Secretary General to the Department. Can I have members’ agreement that we take the statements received as read and that the committee publish the opening statements to the committee’s webpage now. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Before we proceed to questions from members of the committee I wish to advise members that while the committee has received correspondence from and concerning individuals and other organisations and companies in advance of this engagement regarding some of the items that have been flagged for discussions, I remind all members that the names of individuals or identifiable entities or any personal information relating to them should not be discussed publicly in today’s session. If it strays into that unfortunately I will have to intercede and ask members to desist.
I would also like to clarify some limitations references to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to this committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they may be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with my direction in such cases.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
We will shortly proceed to a questions and answers session with members. Members will be given six minutes for questions and answers. We will have at least two rounds. I ask that members’ questions be specific and direct. As the witnesses are the first witnesses before this committee in public session, I will set some rules as regards engagement. It is not specific to RTÉ but, rather, relates to everyone who will come before this committee while I am chairing. Answers specific to the questions are requested. If there is any issue as regards answering the questions, please flag them but I expect answers to be succinct and to the point. In other words, we do not want to see a situation where there is padding or running down the clock in respect of questions.
With that in mind, members will be given approximately six minutes speaking time. That includes both questions and answers. We will commence with Deputy Malcolm Byrne.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair. I welcome the witnesses although I fear it is a case of here we go again. As one of only two members who served on the last committee, I am familiar with many of the issues. During the previous Oireachtas, I asked Mr. Bakhurst whether there was anything else and he honestly answered at the time that he did not think so, to the best of his knowledge. However, we are obviously aware of the writedown on the ICT systems. I understand that writedown is of the order of €3.6 million and that was funded fully by RTÉ’s sale of land in 2017 which netted €107.5 million for RTÉ. Was there anything else out of that land sale that ended up being written down or written off? My concern, which was highlighted by The Currency, is that the problem with this came before the audit and risk committee on 20 April 2023 and then on 27 April 2023 it was brought to the attention of the board. Is this not something, given that we asked whether there was anything else? Surely this is something else and it is a very considerable sum of money?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Yes, it clearly is something else. I answered that question honestly in the knowledge I had at the time. I was not on the board in April 2023. Regarding that meeting, I attended the beginning of the board to be introduced as the incoming director general and I left the board and so I was not part of the board discussion.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Can I ask specifically when Mr. Bakhurst personally became aware of this problem?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I became aware of it on foot of the request from the Department, from the Minister, for a list of capital projects since 2020 with a value of over half a million euro each.
We did up that list and it included 39 projects. When the list was being prepared by the CFO, she alerted me, initially on 26 February, to the size of the impairments.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I am not doubting Mr. Bakhurst's honesty but somebody in RTÉ was aware of this issue in 2023. Mr. Bakhurst came in as director general and he was aware of all the other controversies happening. Did nobody in RTÉ think to come to him and say, "Hey, DG, we have a problem involving a €3.6 million write-down"? Particularly given everything else that was going on, was that not done until the Minister specifically asked about it?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
No one brought the numbers to my attention. It is fair to point out that the CFO who was responsible for making the write-downs had left the organisation. From what I have discovered subsequently and as per the documents we have provided to the committee, the organisation felt this matter was accounted for in the accounts, although I would say not clearly enough. It was there in the accounts as an impairment. It could have been clearer but it was clear enough that NewERA saw it and came back asking exactly what the impairments were for. The issue was properly recorded, it went through the board and the audit and risk committee, ARC, felt it had dealt with it.
As I said in my opening statement, one never wants to lose sums of public money, whether it comes from land sales or otherwise. Sometimes, unfortunately, significant projects go wrong. To give a bit of context, the 39 projects we looked at and provided information on to the Department had a total value of approximately €57 million and they came in within €500,000 of that. So, overall-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. One never necessarily gets praise for projects that are delivered on time and on budget.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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However, €3.6 million is a significant write-down. I respect the work Mr. Bakhurst is doing but he will understand my concern that he, as director general, was not informed of the issue internally.
My next question is for Mr. Ó Coigligh. Is it correct that the Department was not alerted to this problem at any stage until it sent its request about it to RTÉ?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
As Mr. Bakhurst said, the impairment was noted in the accounts in two years. NewERA followed up with a query and that query and the response to it were notified to the Department. There was not clarity about what had happened. It was not clear that part of an ICT project had failed. There was an awareness of the impairment but not of the detail.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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When did somebody become aware it was a €3.6 million write-down? Somebody knew there was a problem but when was it known that it involved a cost of €3.6 million?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
As Mr. Bakhurst said, it was on foot of the request I made to bodies under the aegis of the Department within the media, culture and sports areas in regard to projects with a cost of more than €500,000 from 2020 onwards. The report we received from RTÉ, as the director general indicated, detailed 39 projects valued at €56 million within a 1% variance. That one project stood out, which is when the Department specifically noted it.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Who might have known, and how early might they have known, there was a write-down of €3.6 million within RTÉ?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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We have had the Ernst & Young report and so on and the matter went to the audit and risk committee. Did anybody in that committee or anyone else on the board know about the scale? I am trying to establish that.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Was it aware from 2023?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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The committee was aware in 2023. Okay.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses. I am sure we all hoped representatives of RTÉ would not be here again in this Dáil term to discuss any more financial scandals, let alone so soon after the events of 2023 and 2024. Following those events, three reports were published by the previous Minister for the media, namely, a review of the governance and culture of RTÉ; a review of contractor fees, HR and other matters at RTÉ; and the examination of the books and records of accounts of RTÉ. There was also the report of the Committee of Public Accounts with its 21 recommendations, all of which were accepted last year. In light of those reports and the acceptance of their findings, does the €3.6 million write-off for an IT system, which was revealed this year, breach any of the new guidelines, protocols or accepted recommendations in any of the four reports?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I have not thought about it through that prism. The 105 recommendations of those two expert committee reports, which we are implementing and reporting to the Department on their implementation, should ensure this never happens again. The way things were done within RTÉ at that time contributed to the lack of knowledge across other members of the executive. The communication between the executive and the then board was not good enough. We have been addressing all those things anyway and some of them are recommendations in the reports. Those recommendations will go a long way to ensuring issues like this one are as avoidable as possible.
It was before my time and I am not making excuses. As I have said previously, it is very unfortunate to write off, in effect, more than €3 million of public money. However, big projects, particularly big IT projects, can go wrong. What I have looked at is how the organisation tried to salvage that, what lessons were learned from it and how to ensure, looking at the Ernst & Young report, we are operating to best practice, as set out in that report. That is what we are doing now. Would having that in place previously have stopped this from happening? I do not know because projects can go wrong-----
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is not what I asked.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I was really looking for assurances from the director general that those reports and their recommendations are being adhered to. I respect that all of this happened before his time but it is disappointing that his first line of response to me was that he had not thought about it. It is fairly obvious to me that if he is trying to set a new regime for RTÉ and a new respect for good governance, good auditing and good practice, this would be the first port of call he would rely on. However, I thank him for his response.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Considering the amount of time that was put into RTÉ in the Oireachtas, the exposure RTÉ got and the exposure of all the bad governance, the process the organisation fed into for so many committees, particularly this committee and the Committee of Public Accounts, and the time and effort put into all those reports, I would have thought that would be a basis to build on to ensure transparency and good governance were to the fore.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We are trying to do that. As I made clear in my opening statement, we act whenever anything appears. When our new CFO was going through the balance sheet, she wanted to tidy up another couple of matters. They will be in the annual report but I wanted to bring them to the committee today.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I ask Deputy Byrne to keep in mind the time available to her.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is no problem. I will move on to the accounts and the impairments in the accounts. It is a matter of public record that information provided to NewERA did not give rise to any concerns, which is why its report did not flag this issue as a matter of concern. I cannot get my head around how that happened if it was noted in the annual accounts from 2020 to 2023, as I understand it. I presume it was minuted in meetings and escalated to the relevant management. I am not sure why it did not give cause for concern. I would like a comment on that.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Please do.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
NewERA acts on behalf of the Department. It properly identified these issues and asked questions as to what the impairments were for. Its role is to report to the Department, not to us. NewERA would have looked at what those impairments were for, on what basis they were decided-----
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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NewERA has stated that information provided by RTÉ to it did not give rise to any concerns. If NewERA was not given cause for any concerns, it could not, in effect, report on that to the Department. That is the bit that sets off alarm bells for me.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
To be clear, NewERA looked at the impairments, whether they were treated properly in the accounts, whether they were audited independently by our independent auditor and whether they were reported to the Department. NewERA then looked into the rationale for why the impairments were made. It said, in effect, that they were correctly accounted for and correctly reported. That is what NewERA said. It did not raise a red flag because, in its view, there was no red flag to raise.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. As a result of the issues arising, I understand the contract with one of the appointed suppliers was terminated. This led to a settlement agreement that is subject to a confidentiality clause, which I respect. Are such clauses still in use today? I do not understand the rationale for paying a supplier for not doing the job it was hired to do.
Is RTÉ defending that these clauses are open and transparent with public and taxpayers' money at this stage considering the amount of waste of public money we have seen in recent years?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
The Deputy is right that of the payments and the impairments, one was to one of the companies involved which was later not involved in the project because it was not delivering it. Two of the significant impairments within the €6 million were for an expert consultant who was brought in at the beginning of this project to try to ensure it was properly carried out, as the Deputy can see from the papers I supplied. A significant amount of RTÉ's staff costs - approximately €750,000 - was written off as part of these impairments.
I should say that the impairments were made by the CFO at that point thinking that the whole project might fail. To be crystal clear, the main part of the project - the finance system - was delivered. As I understand it, the threshold for reversing impairments, even if the project can be put back on track, is very high. Arguably, some of the impairments could have been reversed because they were made for the finance system, which was delivered for RTÉ and is currently in use by RTÉ.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are all very welcome. I think of the words "Groundhog Day". We are back here again after a couple of years. I was a member of the previous committee, along with Deputy Malcolm Byrne. Mr. Bakhurst has just made a comment about this never happening again. We were told a number of years ago that this would not happen again. It took a news agency and a letter of correspondence from the Minister to find out about the significant write-down, with repayments of €2.7 million and €1.1 million to the Revenue Commissioners. Mr. Bakhurst made the point in his opening statement that this information is being given, with regard to the Revenue Commissioners, as a reflection of the higher standards of transparency. We should have transparency at all times. Over a number of hearings we had here a number of years ago, trying to elicit information from the organisation was like trying to pull teeth at times. That is continuing. It is not acceptable for an organisation that is funded by the taxpayer.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Yes, if Mr. Bakhurst will just let me finish for a second. Mr. Bakhurst made the comment that the audit and risk committee was aware of the write-down. A number of committee members who are in this room at present were at those previous meetings. We saw that RTÉ asked for significant funding from the Government to bail it out. It requested significant moneys yet no one in the Government was notified of this.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I think a few things there are incorrect. I remember that the last time, or several committee meetings ago, Deputy Carrigy asked me to resign at that point. I should say that nothing was hidden here. This is very different from what was in 2023. Neither of these were on my watch. I have been trying to clear up what happened in the past. I have looked at this issue in some detail, as the Deputy would expect me to, since it surfaced through the Department making that query. This is very different. The 2023 scandal was about things being done deliberately to mislead the public about sums of money being spent and covered up. This was in the accounts. It was questioned by NewEra. It is highly unfortunate to lose this amount of money. The impairments were made. The organisation did end up with an updated finance system, which is significant. In fact, the majority of the project was successfully delivered in the end. This is very different from 2023. Sums of money were lost. I have spoken to one or two members who were then on the ARC and they felt it had been properly accounted for, it had been audited by our auditors and it had been reported to NewERA when it asked about it. Nothing was hidden here. That is not to say it was not unfortunate. Quite frankly, and I have spoken to the CFO about this, if we were to make a similar impairment - God forbid we will not have to - it would be much clearer in the accounts today than it was several years ago.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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There are staff members present here today who were in senior roles in RTÉ during that time, such as the acting DG - the previous DG is not here - and the head of HR. Did they know about this while they were attending meetings of this committee and speaking to Members of the Oireachtas who asked questions of them? Two staff members are present. I will ask Mr. Lynch and Ms Cusack straight out: were they aware of this? If they were, why did they not inform the members of this committee at that time? I would like a straight yes-no answer. Were they aware of it? My time is limited. Was Mr. Lynch aware, as acting DG?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Was Ms Cusack aware of it?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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As head of HR, and bearing in mind that this was a system that was related to HR, Ms Cusack was not aware that this had happened.
Who put together the tender for this IT system? Was it put together properly? Was the right ask put out there when it was being tendered for? Was Ms Cusack involved in it?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Ms Cusack was aware of the tender being put together. Was the correct tender put out? Did it have the right specification for the job?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It was the right specification for the job. Was the right supplier picked?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Was it properly project managed?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry to interrupt, but I am caught for time. RTÉ got it wrong. People are responsible. The specification was not done properly, the right supplier was not picked and it was not project managed. That is why there is a deficit of €3.7 million.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, but I am just asking Ms Cusack specifically about this. The reality is that all three of these things were gotten wrong.
Ms Eimear Cusack:
No, I could not agree with that because we put in our requirements. The contractor and the subcontractor who won the tender said they could deliver on those requirements. Ultimately, the finance system was delivered upon. The contractor and the subcontractor said they could not deliver on the HR system but that was not known at the time they signed up for the project when they said they could deliver on it.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses for being here. It is undeniable that RTÉ has had significant problems in the past with treatment of employees, issues of pay parity, cultural issues, serious governance issues and the treatment of employees as contractors. This has cost RTÉ and the general public dearly in terms of public trust in an institution we all treasure. I encourage at today's session that what we want to see demonstrated is care: care for the witnesses as custodians of our national broadcaster, care for the employees in their employment and care for RTÉ's role as a public service broadcaster.
My first question is about Press Council affiliation. I will direct it at Mr. Bakhurst but he can delegate the question to whomever is the most relevant person to answer it. Given RTÉ's duties as the national broadcaster and the large amount of trust put into RTÉ as a news source, it is vital that RTÉ's editorial independence is protected as well as the quality of news it produces. In light of the fact that articles published on the RTÉ website are not regulated by the Broadcasting Act 2009, or by the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022, will RTÉ become a member publication of the Press Council which would ensure this is a mechanism for journalistic accountability for online reporting by RTÉ? Just to be clear, it was confirmed by the Minister of State, Deputy McConalogue, that the Press Council could do this if RTÉ online became a member.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I may bring in our legal counsel in a second if that is alright. Our head of legal, Mr. Daniel Coady, has been across this. As I understand it, in regard to the online content of RTÉ, the proposals to be soon laid before the Oireachtas by the Department, in terms of the new media Bill-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I know there is stuff coming down the line but this would be an immediate fix we have identified as something that RTÉ online could do to preserve that integrity now. My question is simply this: will RTÉ pursue that membership of the Press Council?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I have a lot of questions. I just wanted to ask that specific question-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Please. Going back to my-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I suppose it is speaking back to my opening comments about the public trust, which I believe has been eroded and we need to win back.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Does Mr. Coady wish to come in?
Mr. Daniel Coady:
I have one comment on this. One of the issues with that proposal is that RTÉ would then be regulated by two separate codes.
Much of our online content derives from material that is broadcast. Something will be broadcast, which is regulated by Coimisiún na Meán, and then there would be a news article on the basis of that.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Nonetheless, it would provide for public trust. I encourage RTÉ to pursue it.
I will skip on to the voluntary redundancy scheme. Regarding suppressing alternative posts and redeploying staff to other roles, how will the rights of those staff staying behind be best protected, particularly in roles between TG4 and RTÉ? I also note there are no trade union representatives on the steering group being put in place to oversee the voluntary exit programme. How is this compatible with a desire to change the culture around the treatment of employees in RTÉ? Again, those questions are to Mr. Bakhurst.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We spoke to the unions about this process before it launched on how it was going to look. In particular, we spoke to them about the safeguards put around the process for having an independent outside body on this. We have to report rigorously to the Department on it and it is overseen by our board subcommittee so there are a lot of safeguards around it.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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There is no trade union representation on that steering group, however.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
No. It would be unusual to have trade unions deciding who can join or leave the organisation individually because it is about individual decisions. The trade unions have a role - they want to represent people - but this is a voluntary scheme. We had 328 people apply and a few late applications. It is entirely voluntary to apply and if we make an offer to some of those people, it is entirely voluntary whether they accept the offer or not. They can of course have union representation if they want it.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Specifically to RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta, it is extremely welcome to see Irish language journalists and broadcasters come a step closer to pay parity with their English language counterparts. Those toward the top of the old Raidió na Gaeltachta pay scales will now be at the closest point on the RTÉ pay scales to their previous salary. Given the significant disparity - I believe it is a difference of €16,000 for radio producers and a difference of €14,000 for the radio BCO scale between the pay scales - why are people not being put on the point most equivalent to their experience as opposed to their current lower pay? Perhaps Mr. Bakhurst will answer that.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
As the Deputy knows, this is has been an outstanding issue for years. When I came in, I discussed with Eimear Cusack, head of HR, that I wanted this resolved and we have resolved it. The ask was that our staff who work at Raidió na Gaeltachta be given parity with their colleagues in similar jobs - they are not exactly the same jobs - in RTÉ Radio.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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A difference of €16,000 does not sound like parity.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Funnily enough, this of particular benefit to the people Deputy Gibney has talked about near the top of their bands at Raidió na Gaeltachta because they would not have been able to progress much further once they hit the top of those bands. They now have significant headroom to progress.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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That is because they have taken quite a dip.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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It goes back to the question that it should surely be relevant to their experience rather than moving them along on that band. I would have thought that should factor in.
I have one more question regarding bogus self-employment. I note the finding that 60% of cases investigated by the Department of Social Protection were found to be correctly categorised but it is concerning that 22%, so far, were incorrectly categorised. How much money has RTÉ incurred in costs defending cases of bogus self-employment where it was ultimately found to be in the wrong? If Mr. Bakhurst does not have time to answer now, perhaps we can take a written answer.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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He can provide a quick answer.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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To be specific, Mr. Bakhurst, Deputy Gibney asked how much it cost for the cases RTÉ lost.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I ask Mr. Bakhurst to come back to us on that before the meeting finishes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Surely you can get the number right. It must be pretty obvious.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome everyone to the meeting. There are enough people here to fill a hurling team. They have come out in numbers, and fair play for that.
To say it is highly unfortunate to lose €3.6 million suggests it was an accident. This situation did not occur by accident. Whether the buck stops with those involved in the procurement process or an ERA, someone somewhere knew the system was unworkable. Someone must be accountable.
The director general, Mr. Bakhurst, was made aware when the Minister specifically asked in 2025. The audit and risk committee of the RTÉ board knew in April 2023 and the board met later in April 2023, yet nobody thought to feed that information up. The Department is on record this afternoon as saying it was aware of the impairment but not of the detail. The sum of €3.6 million is not pocket money. It is not good enough to be aware of an impairment but not the detail.
RTÉ is going to receive €725 million in the next three years from the Government. I would have thought there would be a little more attention to detail as regards funding.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Please do.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Since I was made aware of this, we have done a significant amount of work on the detail of how this happened and what the safeguards now in place are to try to prevent it from happening again. We are considering what the details are, what the decisions are, if there are lessons to be learned in procurement and if we have imposed all the recommendations of the EY report. One thing we have brought in, which has never happened before, is that the full list of significant capital projects comes to the leadership team once a month, so that we are all aware of-----
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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For clarification, how many are on the leadership team?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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They are all made aware of any bigger spending-----
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I want to move on quickly to the PRSI classification because I am very conscious of time. I note RTÉ paid out €4 million that was tied to the misclassification of some 700 staff, although obviously they were not all misclassified. What does RTÉ expect will be the final amount paid to the Department for that?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
The Deputy knows the size of the provision we have made in the accounts, which is approximately €21 million. It is very hard to say at present because a significant number of the cases are outstanding. There is an agreed disagreement, if you like, between us and the Department about the status of people who were self-employed through their own companies. Those are going through the legal system, or at least some of them are going through as pathfinder cases, and that will have a significant impact in the end on how much we will have to pay as an organisation. We have taken a very conservative view, as I would expect from Mari Hurley, in terms of------
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I note the figure for legal advice related to High Court costs is €165,000. What figure does RTÉ expect to see from those High Court challenges?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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When does Mr. Bakhurst expect the process to be completed?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I would like it to be completed as soon as possible but it is out of our hands. It is in the hands of the Courts Service.
I should add that some new officials came into the Department of Social Protection about a year ago and we have made extremely rapid progress because they have been working openly and collaboratively with Ms Cusack and her team to try to get these cases resolved as soon as possible.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Fair enough. How many employees does RTÉ have?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Some 325 have applied for voluntary redundancy?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Bakhurst's application has come in then.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will everybody who applies be eligible? I know there is a process in place and a group has been set up but will everybody who applies be eligible?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
The criteria drawn up by our Department and the Department of public expenditure, are extremely strict. Individuals will only be eligible if we either do not need to replace them or we can make the savings elsewhere. The criteria are very strict. Some may not be eligible because they may be in a specific role. For example, and I know this is true as I have already said it to them, it is very hard to see with musicians in the orchestra because we cannot move someone across from the newsroom to replace them.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How many voluntary redundancies is RTÉ seeking?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will that number have left the organisation by 31 December of this year?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What is the upfront potential cost of that?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst have a guesstimate?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does RTÉ intend to request another severance package in 2026?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I have said publicly that I think we will have to. We have to demonstrate first that this one is properly carried out and delivers efficiencies for the organisation. We can only do this one phase at a time, so there are some other significant things we need to do. We have already talked about "Fair City" a number of times but that will be a separate phase. We cannot do it all at once.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am very conscious of time but I have one last quick question.
Should RTÉ have considered doing up the newsroom, to make it a more suitable workplace for its staff, instead of hiring props to shoot an ad?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I very much welcome being able to answer this question because it has infuriated me. First, a significant amount of the press coverage has been totally inaccurate about it. Second, we have just spent €50,000 on doing up part of the newsroom. Regarding the props that were allegedly used, a couple of plants were moved from elsewhere in RTÉ and were put back to cover up electrical points.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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So there were no props?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
There were two plants. As the Deputy will be aware, even when news interviews are being filmed, people sometimes wear makeup, they have lighting, a plant might be moved to improve the shot, etc. I would expect that of our highly professional promotions team. Lastly, there has been some coverage about extras being brought in. The proper conversations were had about this between our marketing team, who were doing this, and the news management team. They discussed how it was going to be done. The initial request was for some journalists from the newsroom to sit in the background - they can be blurred out, by the way - while filming was being done for several hours. The answer was, "No, our journalists are too busy, so you have to use other people".
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How much did the extras cost?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How much did this particular promotion cost?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I want to go back to the IT debacle. I have a quick question and others will flow from it. Is the PeopleSoft programme still being used today? It is 24 years old. At this stage, without any live support or any back-up support, it is at its end of life as a system.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, it is at its end of life and it has been for quite a number of years. Which company is hosting it at this stage or providing back up?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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So BearingPoint has no role in it at this stage?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The original procurement was for five systems to be replaced, three of which were HR and only two were done, so not even half of the project was got up and running. The finance part was got up and running but not the HR part, which would be vital, to most people.
Mr. Richard Waghorn:
Absolutely. We put in place additional systems in the last few years because PeopleSoft did not have the capability to do the workflows that we wanted to do. The intention was not to have multiple systems supporting HR and finance; it was to have a single system. This is very common in many industries. That is why we went to market to find one ERP system that could take care of both finance and HR. Through a fair and open public procurement process, we selected the vendor that was going to offer the best value for money. The system met our requirements. It was unfortunate that the project did not deliver, because we had the challenges on the way, as set out in the note. The PeopleSoft system is still working today. Unit4 Business World, the new finance system we contracted, is in place and working.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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There is a logic that all big organisations have to upgrade or update their IT systems. However, at one stage, there were three vendors. Then two of them colluded to win the contract, or that is how it appears, because RTÉ ended up with BearingPoint and Unit4, with BearingPoint winning the contract and then employing one of the under-bidders. That, in itself, seems to raise questions.
Mr. Richard Waghorn:
It was a fair and open procurement process. The three vendors that went through to the ITT were the ones that were still in the competition. The Deputy is absolutely right. One of the vendors that was bidding alone was going to be subcontracted to another vendor. Through the procurement process, that vendor decided to withdraw and then go with the other contractor. At the end, we then had two bids from the eventual winner and then from another third party.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It seems odd that the winner had to depend on an under-bidder. Did that not raise concerns at the time that they could not deliver and had to bring in Unit4?
Mr. Richard Waghorn:
No. The contractor we contracted with was a systems integrator. What would be common is that they would then make a bid with a vendor of a product. This happens with a lot of the projects we procure. What we got from that bid was a systems integrator working with a vendor. The vendor was also in the process separately. That has happened in some other procurements we have run as well.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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When will the existing programme be replaced to make sure it is up to date?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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What will the approximate cost be? I know it is kind of-----
Mr. Richard Waghorn:
The budget we approved on the business case was €1.6 million and there would be our operating expenses costs on an annual basis as well. Ultimately, it depends. We are looking to go with SaaS or Public Cloud for this particular system, so at the end of the day, the cost profile might be slightly different from what we put in the original business case. Once we have completed the procurement process, we go back to the leadership team and the board with an updated business case to reflect the costs that have come through the procurement process.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will now address the issue of the dismantling of structures in RTÉ. Different departments are earmarked for "increased commissioning", which is a signal for dismantling or getting rid of some departments. Is it intended, in the future, to close the HR department or outsource its functions? What does RTÉ intend to do with the departments that make religious programmes, documentaries and sports?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
As the Deputy will already be aware, a lot of our content is already being made in the independent sector. Apart from "Fair City", all of our drama is made by independent contractors, as are many of our documentaries. Yes, we are putting Christian religious programmes out to tender as well. We hope to get a different and a better product from that. We will need to be making more programmes in the independent sector. Regarding the corporate functions like HR and so on, following one of the recommendations from the expert advisory committee, we have looked at our internal audit. We are now doing that as sort of a partnership with one of the big accounting firms. We still have an internal audit function but instead of doing it all internally, we are using one of the big firms, which I understand is best practice and was recommended in the expert advisory committee report.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Will Mr. Bakhurst clarify when he became aware of the issue?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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On 26 February.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I ask every representative here from RTÉ when they became aware of the issue. I will start with Ms Hurley.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Of any issues in terms of problems and costs.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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There are 11 people here from RTÉ and they all became aware of the issue at the same time. How many people did Mr. Bakhurst say is employed in RTÉ at the moment?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Is there anyone of that 1,850 who was aware before that? Is there any current member in RTÉ of the 1,850 who was aware before the 11 people here?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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No, just aware of an issue. Do not worry about the exact figures.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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What were you aware of at the time?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Not the figure, just an issue in terms of the cost of it and the waste.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is extraordinary that there is nobody in the whole organisation that would not have been aware of this level of issue.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Would have been aware, surely.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Does the person whom Ms Hurley spoke to still work in RTÉ?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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The very first question that was asked today was when did people become aware of this. We now know there is someone in RTÉ who was aware of this before the 11 witnesses and that person is not in this room. Why? Why not bring that person in?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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RTÉ knew what the first question would be.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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But they were aware of it and they have said that they were aware of it at the time.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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And 11 people come in here and say that they knew nothing about it.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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It just seems for any organisation-----
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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We found a good staff member.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I agree.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Yes. One would think that member would be promoted into a senior role so as to come in here and we could speak to him or her.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Maybe that person should be put into a senior role.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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That is my point because there has been deflection for a number of years by people who came in here, although not necessarily everyone in this room. It is incredible to think that there are people who work in RTÉ who were aware of it and whom we cannot actually speak to yet the whole leadership had not a clue what was going on. It seems amazing that Mr. Lynch did not know anything.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Ms Cusack is head of HR.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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When did Ms Cusack become aware there was an issue, not financially, but just with the system?
Ms Eimear Cusack:
With the project, that issue was early on. That was in 2019. We knew that there were issues, in that the design of the finance piece of the system was going at a speed and the HR one was lagging behind. I knew that there was a problem with the HR piece and in the design phase of that.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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With whom did Ms Cusack raise that?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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In the steering committee, when Ms Cusack raised those concerns or issues, did anyone from the finance side, or anyone else from the leadership team, ask whether there was a financial issue with this?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Even if RTÉ is desperate to get something, it still has a responsibility when it comes to taxpayers' money. The money generated by 22,500 people who pay licence fees has been wasted on this.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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RTÉ can be desperate but it still has to do it properly.
Ms Eimear Cusack:
A contract had been signed at that point for the delivery of the finance and HR systems. We were in a contract situation. The issue for me as the HR person responsible for the HR requirements was to work with the team to move heaven and earth to try to make the project work from a HR perspective. That was done in good faith because we were in contract.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I have only 20 seconds left. Would the CFO consider the way the write-down was documented in the annual accounts best practice?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Was it how the CFO would do it?
Ms Mari Hurley:
I think, as the DG has already said, we would be very conscious, particularly now as a public body and in light of the recommendations that the other Deputy mentioned coming from the various EAC reports. Certainly, the standards we would aspire to now are not minimum disclosure, but to adopt a process of openness and transparency.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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It certainly is not the way the CFO would do it, I suspect.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome all of our guests and thank them for their attendance.
I want to start with a question on the licence fee. This issue dates back to the former Minister, Catherine Martin. At the time, she was criticised for essentially signing a blank cheque in regard to the subsidy that would be received by RTÉ from the Government going forward. In terms of collection for 2023, I believe that RTÉ was €40 million down. How is that carried forward and likely to go into the future? The then Minister was criticised and I want to briefly hear where we are with State funding.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Have things picked up from the €40 million shortage in 2023?
Ms Mari Hurley:
Full year, when our licence fees are relative to the same period in 2024, we are 2% behind. There is quite a degree of weekly volatility. I particularly noticed that in the back end of last year. It has been more stable in the first few months of this year. The licence fee again declined marginally by 4% over the full year of 2024 versus 2023. The more significant declines that had been experienced in 2023 have been averted.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That will help with some of the other stuff that we are here to discuss.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Our guests have mentioned the budget of €15 million and there are 325 potential retirements or redundancies. How many of the 325 people are close to retirement? Does RTÉ have an approximate figure or even a rough percentage?
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I want to discuss the Department of Social Protection and its scoping investigation. It was referenced in the statement that 60% of the contractors had been found to be valid or correct and that 82% of the entire scoping exercise had been done. Do I take it that 40% of the 82% of the contracts were not proper or valid?
Ms Eimear Cusack:
Some 60% were deemed to have been properly classified. There are 22% that we have settled with the Department of Social Protection on and there are a number outstanding. As the director general has said, a majority of those would be related to limited companies where there is a dispute between the Department and RTÉ on a point of law.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the disputed contracts, and I do not like to personalise things so will not name individuals, how many of those people, individuals or companies would be higher earners, by which I mean, earn in excess of €100,000 or €150,00?
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will not hold RTÉ to a time - others might - but are we looking at those being rectified and done by this year? Is it going to go into next year? Typically, how long does it take to resolve these things?
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am going to sound like a hypocrite having just said that I do not like to individualise things but there has been quite a significant recent retirement from RTÉ Radio 1. I think everybody in here would wish Joe Duffy the best in his retirement. I want to know who will replace him and take over his radio slot. He earned a significant salary. Regarding his new replacement, whoever he or she may be, is that significant salary a target or cap? How is the salary being viewed? I am not negotiating on anyone's behalf but it is a significant salary.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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As this is the media and sports committee, I want to use my last minute to ask a few questions on sport.
I am a big soccer fan, like the Chair. It was unfortunate that RTÉ lost the League of Ireland rights. Could Mr. Bakhurst account for that, the negotiations that occurred and why Virgin was successful? Stadiums are full at the moment. If you turn on the radio, you can get a GAA game or rugby game, involving a competitor or your own team, but very rarely do you hear a League of Ireland game. Therefore, I am concerned about the approach RTÉ has taken to soccer specifically. If you go to Turners Cross on a Friday night, it will be full. Most of the League of Ireland club grounds are full on Friday and Saturday nights. I am concerned about the direction being taken the League of Ireland specifically.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
As with all sports rights, we put in a bid. Right until the last minute, we were negotiating to get slightly more games than we had the last time. We understood right until the last minute that there was going to be a split again between us and Virgin, but suddenly we were quite surprised to find Virgin had got all the games. We were both surprised and disappointed. One thing we have managed to do is secure the rights to the cup games.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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The delegates are all very welcome. Many of the issues around governance, expenditure and administration have been well and rightly ventilated. I want to turn to an issue of policy, and it is probably most appropriate to direct my question to Mr. Bakhurst and Ms McCarthy. Many are critical of RTÉ because they feel it fails to reflect the variety of perspectives of a silenced, significant minority in this country. I am speaking about the social and political conversation in the nation, not the relative amount of coverage given to political parties or individuals. There is a widespread sense that RTÉ is sometimes more of a State broadcaster than a public service broadcaster. I have spoken to many who believe there is a strong, systemic bias in favour of so-called progressive points of view as opposed to socially conservative points of view. People who have this concern do not experience public service broadcasting in the sense that we all instinctively understand the term. There are in groups and out groups, as they see it. There are groups that are trumpeted and amplified and others that will tend to be kept invisible. It is fair to say that many political anoraks I speak to tend to believe that diverse points of view get a better crack of the whip on Newstalk, and at a significantly lower cost. These issues can be subjective, of course, but I want to know whether RTÉ has any concerns about groupthink or a lack of attention to diversity when it comes to political coverage or coverage of different social and political perspectives. If the delegates accept that there may be a problem in this area, have they any plans to deal with it?
Ms Deirdre McCarthy:
I thank the Senator for the question. I do not have concerns. We are legally and statutorily obliged to be reflective of all the perspectives of Irish society. Across our news and current affairs programming and bulletins, that is what we do. We give a variety of views and we are representative. With regard to there being criticism, we are often criticised for not being regional enough or not reflecting exactly what is going on in communities at local level. That can sometimes be the charge rather than that we do not provide a variety or diverse range of opinions, be they political or those of NGOs, community groups or individuals who have a view. Being representative is our job. I am not aware of any serious issues regarding the claim the Senator has made.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I accept that there is always a degree of subjectivity regarding these issues but believe the answer given is the standard defensive boilerplate answer that RTÉ has been giving for years. Let me give one example. Today there was a discussion on Claire Byrne’s programme about an often-ventilated issue, namely the need for daycare and childcare in this country, yet the perspective that probably influenced last year’s referendum result to some degree is not covered. A survey quoted by David Quinn suggests 69% of mothers, if they had a choice and were not under financial pressure, would prefer to be stay-at-home mothers. That point of view, whether one agrees with it or not, is an example of one that is “lesser spotted” or less often heard, to say the least, on RTÉ. I am not aware of a single change of direction or desire to consider last year’s referendum results, what they suggested and whether there was an unreflected discourse in the country that RTÉ, as a public service broadcaster, would have a responsibility to cover. I believe it is a question of social conservatism versus progressivism.
When I talk to people about what the solution is, they say it could lie in RTÉ being taken away from the less oxygenated Dublin 4 and located out the country a bit more. Some say it may be a question of divvying out the money a little more widely to the benefit of organisations such as Newstalk, which I believe give more diverse, pungent social viewpoints an airing. Alternatively, maybe it is a question of legislation. Ms McCarthy mentioned RTÉ’s obligations but I do not see the point in repeating mantra-like one’s legal obligations if there is no sense of what I am alluding to among a significant cohort. We should remember that if a significant number of people have issues with the way RTÉ preaches to the nation, that is RTÉ’s problem. It is a problem it has to address, particularly if it wants ongoing public support. My sense is that RTÉ is tone deaf on this particular issue.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
May I answer? I agree with what Ms McCarthy said but want to add something. We are always very open to considering representations. We have a weekly cross-organisation editorial meeting that people from many different areas attend. On the cliché of groupthink or whatever, there is a degree of editorial independence around the organisation. The team on the Claire Byrne programme takes decisions separately from the team on “Morning Ireland” or “Drivetime”. They are delegated to do that. We do a lot of audience research. Yes, we have-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Does RTÉ do any staff research? Does it ever investigate whether too many people think the same way about certain issues in the organisation? Many think that is the case.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I think there is a cultural elite, and I think Mr. Bakhurst needs to ask the question.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I think that would be a little bit North Korean. It is really important for us to be open.
On the cliché about Dublin 4, the majority of people who work in Donnybrook do not come from Dublin 4, by the way, although I do live in Dublin 4. Part of the strategy for the next five years is that we are going to move more resources and production around the island of Ireland so we will be more in touch with the communities whose views we should be representing on air. I hope that will be part of what we do-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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One of the great ironies of our time is that there is so much talk about unconscious bias practically everywhere except where it matters – in our public service broadcaster. I invite the delegates to reflect on this issue and ask whether what they are hearing from me is just the subjective view of a small number of individuals or whether there is a wider concern. I suggest that they do not just wait for people to get in touch with them; rather, they should take the temperature on these kinds of issues.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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In the interest of transparency and good faith, I must put on record for the committee that I am a former employee of RTÉ. I spent 20 years in the organisation as a staff member but I am asking questions today as a Member of the Oireachtas and member of this committee. I do not gain materially from doing so and am asking all of my questions in good faith.
I want to talk about the bogus self-employment contracts and the legacy issues. It might be good if my discussion is with Ms Cusack. On the 655 cases that went to the Department, the opening remarks suggested 82% of them have been concluded. That is very definite language. Can Ms Cusack tell me what “concluded” means?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Therefore, “no further action” is the same thing as “concluded”. What action was taken? Is Ms Cusack talking about the backdated PRSI that was paid to the Department?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Exactly. Does Ms Cusack agree that if the scope section decision was that PRSI had to be back-paid, it meant those concerned were actually misclassified and employees from the date to which PRSI payments had to be backdated?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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But if RTÉ had to back pay PRSI, that is basically an admission that they were misclassified in the first place because it had to go back and pay the PRSI.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Is Ms Cusack talking about Eversheds? I am not.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I know that. Deputy Gibney asked about how much the appeals have cost. RTÉ will come back to us with that figure. Do the witnesses have an overall figure for the PRSI that was paid back?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Were there any penalties for-----
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Regarding the back payment of PRSI, there would be penalties and interest for a normal worker who did not pay PRSI for six or eight years. Did RTÉ have to pay any penalties or interest arising out of the fact that RTÉ did not pay PRSI for these people for years?
Ms Mari Hurley:
There have been payments in interest and penalties to Revenue but, as of yet, the Department has not levied any interest or penalties in respect of the PRSI payments.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Does RTÉ expect to have interest or penalties?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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The final figure regarding how much it cost is pretty significant, on top of the appeals. Do the witnesses have that figure?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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The full amount is just to get an idea of the figure. In terms of paying the PRSI back, which the witnesses told us has been done - they have given us the figures - with regard to those who were misclassified and whose PRSI was back paid, what compensation has been given to them? I understand that the PRSI bill was back-paid but those people were denied maternity leave, sick leave, annual leave and pension contributions. Have the people who were misclassified been compensated in respect of those other contributions? Forget about the Department, have the people been compensated?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Eversheds involves 90 people. I am talking about the 655 people about whom Ms Cusack is talking.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I know but I do not want to go down a rabbit hole involving Eversheds, the Department of Social Protection scope section and the findings around those people. Ms Cusack is talking about the 655 people. Have those people got their pensions back-paid? Have they got their maternity leave back-paid?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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It is a simple question. Have they had their pensions brought back up to date?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Will there be? We talk about wanting to be fair. I know RTÉ has spoken to staff members about wanting to have a fair conclusion to this process. Does Ms Cusack think it is fair for RTÉ not to pay PRSI and then also pocket the pensions, maternity leave, sick leave and annual leave of people, some of whom are approaching retirement, for years?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
To be fair, a number of those people who were contractors were paid significantly more to be contractors. Some of them chose to be contractors at the time because they wanted to earn more and were outside the pay bands of RTÉ. There is a significant range of people in the cohorts we are talking about. When we go back a number of years, some of these people had other jobs outside RTÉ. They were working as sports contributors or analysts or whatever in their spare time but we have gone back and have had to characterise those as employment dates and paid the PRSI on them.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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There were lots of people who were not in that scenario and were just doing an honest day's work. There are people approaching retirement next year with 40 years of normal work but they do not have that. I will come back to it later on.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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On a slightly more positive note, looking at the JNLR figures, I can see that RTÉ is still a valuable and valued asset. We need to keep tight control of that and make sure it continues. I am new to the committee. I am slightly disappointed that we are starting another year in a new committee with a fresh financial impairment. The first contribution from Deputy Byrne alluded to the first question that was asked the last time, which was whether there was anything else we should know about. When Mr. Bakhurst went in, was this not his first question to every department? Was there anything else that was going to come up and was there anything else he should know?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Yes, and I asked it frequently. I asked it around the place. Obviously, a significant amount of money was lost on this and the impairments were made. The people involved in it felt it had been correctly treated. A significant amount of work was done to try to rescue the project and deliver the finance system. They felt that the impairments had been properly accounted for and that they had been interrogated and properly reported and would be properly audited. When I asked whether there was anything I should know about that had been hidden away, the answer was-----
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Bakhurst was very clear that he faced challenges and there were very serious financial impairments in previous years. Is he concerned that there is a need-to-know basis and that they took it upon themselves that he should not know about this?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I would rather have been told about it so I could have at least been aware of it and interrogated it at the time. It is a big organisation. This is over a number of years. I have gone back and looked at a lot of things. The new CFO has gone through the balance sheet, which is why some of the corrections have been made today that we disclosed to the committee. We have been trying to clean out the stable and we have done that to the best of our knowledge with the support of a very robust and well-informed new chair and board.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Bakhurst satisfied that this need-to-know basis is completely gone?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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We have the opportunity to get Mr. Bakhurst in a room and interrogate him.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Are the 228 redundancies broken down into particular departments? Is there one outstanding department that is looking for redundancies?
Ms Eimear Cusack:
They are broken down. The larger departments across content, news and current affairs and operations and production services will carry the largest number in each. There are smaller numbers in some of the smaller departments like HR, finance, etc. I would say there are applications across the board.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I noticed Ms McCarthy shaking her head when Deputy Cleere spoke about discontent in the newsroom over the new promotional video. I have worked in newsrooms over the past 30 years. I have not worked in RTÉ but I have worked in Sky News, the BBC and UTV Ireland. I know this is built on not being "us and them". It is built on good morale. There are reports of newsroom staff not being happy - in fact, the word is "livid". Is that not true?
Ms Deirdre McCarthy:
I am glad to have the opportunity to answer the question because there has been a significant amount of factual inaccuracies, misinformation and a lack of context regarding this story. We have been working with the marketing department for a number of months. It wanted to promote RTÉ news and current affairs, particularly RTÉ news on this occasion. We have been working closely with it so that there would be no perception that this was not authentic and reflective of what goes on. The promo reflects the working daily lives of three prominent journalists in the division. It involved, through marketing, some production and needed to do some filming in the newsroom. A decision was made that we would not take journalists off their day-to-day duties and responsibilities. Instead it was agreed with marketing that a number of extras would be hired. These would be out of focus so one would not even see these people. They are blurred. Some filming has been done. Some issues were raised and an awful lot of the misinformation has come from a leak to the media from an internal editorial meeting that took place last Thursday.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Let us address some more of the misinformation. There have been suggestions that people were brought in to cover a more diverse aspect of our communities. Is this correct? If so, does that acknowledge that RTÉ, particularly in the newsroom, has a lack of diversity?
Ms Deirdre McCarthy:
To answer the Senator's question regarding the extras, we are reflecting a diverse range of gender and everything but these people will not be seen. They are blurred. They are not part of the actual focus. The charge is that what we are doing here does not reflect reality and that it is some sort of fake news. That is not true. Everything we do every single day to uphold the reputation and integrity of RTÉ News is applied here. It is the same.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Is this promotional video now being scrapped and another one started?
Ms Deirdre McCarthy:
We have been working with the marketing team on this for months. Filming is continuing. It is not finished yet. Each step of the way, the team has kept us informed. Where we had concerns, we have raised them. We have listened to the members of staff who have raised concerns. Last week's meeting was an opportunity for everyone to have an open and frank discussion about it. If there are issues, we will bring them back. It is imperative that we do nothing that would undermine the reputation of RTÉ News.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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My first question relates to the exit package. This may have been covered. I apologise for being late; I was caught up at another committee. Will Mr. Bakhurst tell me the status of the exit package? How is it going? Have the numbers Mr. Bakhurst promised or agreed been reached? Could I have an answer to that?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Is RTÉ taking people on at the moment?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We are taking people on in different roles, yes. We have to. There are areas we are investing in such as technology and our player. As we have said all along, this is about reshaping the organisation so there are some skills that we need to bring in. We need to carry on running the organisation and we need to get the best people on board. However, when we recruit, we are very mindful that we are going through a period of downsizing. In the end, I will judge it on the overall headcount. We need to take that into consideration.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst feel RTÉ will achieve the figures stated in this room previously?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Let us look at the maths alone. Did Mr. Bakhurst say he was aiming to take out 127?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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If RTÉ is taking people on as well, the number must be quite small.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Can we get a detailed breakdown of those exiting and those being taken on?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Again, I was late. How is morale in RTÉ? You get a feel for it. It is not fake news. I have friends who work there and, when I talk to them, they say that morale is at an all-time low.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I have heard that before. I have heard people say that this time it really is at an all-time low. However, I would say that it is very mixed around the organisation. Change is very difficult. There was also a very high level of anger and disappointment among staff about the events of 2023 and previously. There is a long road to recovery from that. We need to bring in a lot of cultural change in the organisation from the top down, among managers and in the way people behave in the organisation generally. We are working very hard on that but you cannot flick a switch and do that overnight. There is no doubt that, when you are going through a programme to change an organisation and make it smaller, some areas are going to be harder hit than others and that morale in those areas will not be good. There are areas where morale is very good. In fact, we just carried out a comprehensive staff survey. It closed last week and we have just had the initial results. It shows very clearly that there are some areas where morale is very good and some areas where there is a lot of work to be done.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Is that report available to us?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The process of reshaping has been going on for two years now and I had this conversation in the last 48 hours. The person I was talking to said that morale has never been as low. That is the point I am making. What are we doing to change that?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We are doing everything we can. We have set out a great number of measures. I constantly have to report to the board about this. We are trying to communicate with staff better. We have a leadership team that is pretty much wholly new. A lot of new people have come to the leadership team. They are driving a large amount of change in their areas, including cultural change. Since I started, I have always had an open door policy. Anyone can come to see me and people have taken me up on that. I go around to see teams. There are ongoing challenges for the organisation and there is a legacy of a lack of trust in senior management, a gap between senior management and the organisation and a high level of anger about what happened during the crisis. Those are things we are having to deal with but we are doing our best every day to do so.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Bakhurst would agree that morale is at an all-time low, however.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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From my previous experience in the private sector, I know you need to talk to the people there and they are saying that. I am looking at-----
Ms Mari Hurley:
I have those numbers for the Senator. Payments of €3.2 million were made to the Department of Social Protection. In addition, payments of €1.8 million were made to the Revenue Commissioners in five different instalments as cases closed out. That included interest and penalties of approximately €500,000.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have a few questions. My first question is to the Department. We know NewERA was notified regarding the ERP project. When did NewERA make the Department aware?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Mr. Ó Coigligh is confusing himself. It is a very simple question. When did the Department become aware of this impairment? I ask Mr. Ó Coigligh to reply quickly.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Did the 2021 report refer to this also affecting 2020?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The first time any of the three staff members from the Department became aware of this was when it was raised in the 2021 accounts?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The Department was not aware of it before 2021.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Who of the three representatives has been in the Department the longest?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I lost days of my life in this room a couple of years ago dealing with RTÉ in the Committee of Public Accounts. In the name of God, how did the Department responsible for RTÉ not let this committee, the Committee of Public Accounts or both know that there had been a loss beyond that incurred as a result of the toy show musical and the whole issue with a well-known RTÉ presenter?
Ms Tríona Quill:
What was stated in the 2020 accounts was that there was an impairment relating to intangible assets. That related to the 2020 accounts and the 2021 accounts as well. On the 2020 accounts, NewERA asked RTÉ what that related to. NewERA was told it related to a renegotiation of the ERP project. There was an opportunity there for RTÉ to say the project had been delayed and that the HR element would be delivered but that was not done. I believe it would be now. There is a far better level of openness-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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To be clear, RTÉ told NewERA about this. The accounts were not very transparent. Ms Quill is saying that it would be more transparent now. I get that. However, did no one in the Department ask what this was about.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I understand that. I will get back to this. Putting NewERA between RTÉ and the Department is a problem.
I have one very simple question. Did anybody in the Department know about this impairment relating to an IT project? Was anyone in the whole Department aware of this huge loss while we were sitting here talking about the toy show and Ryan Tubridy?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is very simple. I have to move on to other questions.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Can I announce to the Irish public that the Department that was responsible for media had zero or no idea that there was an impairment of this amount in relation to this project, while we were sitting here in this room two years ago? Is that an accurate statement or not?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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No, sorry-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Mr. Ó Coigligh is basically saying that the information available to the Department was the same information available to the public. That is impossible. I lost days of my life here. I was not aware of it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am a TD and a member of the public. This is very important question for Mr. Ó Coigligh as the Secretary General and for all the officials. They should think about how they answer this because it is critically important to how we get this information. Was there an awareness in the Department of media regarding this impairment two years ago, while we were going through the other issues in RTÉ? If so, why were we not made aware of it?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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You are not answering my question. Was there an awareness of this impairment? I will ask you again and if you do not answer the question, I will just say you are not going to answer the question and leave it at that. Was there an awareness within the Department?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I respect Mr. Ó Coigligh was not the Secretary General. That is why his colleagues are here.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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You did not know it was an IT project.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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So the Department did know it was the ERP project. We are getting places.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The Department was aware, two years ago, that there was an impairment relating to the ERP project that was larger than the total sums we were discussing at these committees, but nobody in the Department thought it was probably appropriate to make the committees aware of that issue.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Why would they be very different today? How was the operation of the Department different two years ago from today?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have a number of other questions but I will not get to them. Mr. O'Rourke gave a statement today. According to the Secretary General's statement, "As you will hear from the Director General today, RTÉ are continuing to deliver on its new Strategy", etc. Were the RTÉ statements given to the Department beforehand?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Can anyone answer? Were the RTÉ statements, of the director general and the chairperson, who is the chair of an independent board, given to the Department before this meeting? I also note that in a couple of the statements there are font changes. It looks like they were edited, basically. Were they given to the Department - I will not say for sign-off - before coming here today?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Let us be straight up. I do not believe it is possible that nobody is sitting here who does not know. Were the statements given to the Department before the Secretary General came here?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
We saw a draft statement the day before it was transmitted to the committee. We would not have suggested any changes. We may have shared our statement; I cannot remember. The statements tend to be released. They are sent to the committee two days in advance. They tend to-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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So the statements were sent to the Department.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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There is the answer for the RTÉ chair and director general.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The fact is I noticed Mr. Ó Coigligh knew what the DG would say, so obviously-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I understand.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have got to move on.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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My colleagues have only one question each.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair. I want to put on record, while there is a lot of criticism, that in terms of the team within RTÉ and those in the independent production sector, a lot of the documentaries, drama and news and current affairs coverage is generally pretty good, including coverage of both the Olympics and the general election last year. We should put that on record.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The Deputy has one minute.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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These questions will be very quick. How many people in RTÉ are currently earning more than the DG?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Are any negotiations still being carried out with Noel Kelly or any other independent agents?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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How many is he currently representing?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I will ask Ms Cusack. Does she know, as head of HR, how many people Noel Kelly is currently representing?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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On the writedown, it is fair to say that anybody who worked in the private sector, if they had overseen such a significant loss of money - I call it significant although the director general called it unfortunate - would receive sanctions of some sort. Has anybody in RTÉ received any sanctions? What corrective and preventative actions have been put in place to ensure that no further projects will ever be similarly written off, particularly to such an extent?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
All I can say is this project was run out of the offices of the two previous CFOs. Obviously, Breda O'Keeffe left some time ago, which was well-publicised. The previous CFO subsequently left RTÉ. It was run out of their offices. To be fair to Richard Collins, the most recent CFO before Ms Hurley, he did an awful lot to try to salvage this project. In fact, he did in the end. He brought in new consultants, as part of the impairments, and he salvaged the finance part of the project. The people who were running the project have left the organisation.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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They did not receive sanctions. They left.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Has the Secretary General, as a departmental official, confidence in the governance and procedures in place at RTÉ, based on the fact that not one of the senior management team was aware of something that cost the taxpayer €3.7 million?
Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh:
There has been a sea-change in the governance relationship between the Department and RTÉ following the events of 2023. We work very closely. The sharing of the script in advance is part of that open relationship between us. We have eight leadership meetings between the Department and RTÉ every year. I think there are quarterly meetings with the DG. We work very closely. We are seeing good practice so-----
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Ó Coigligh happy with the governance procedures now, based on the fact-----
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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On that, the DG mentioned the two previous CFOs and the fact they are not here. I will ask Ms Cusack, as head of HR, who project managed the project? Should there have been a reporting procedure back to her, as this was a HR project, to let her know the difficulties and the cost associated with it?
Ms Eimear Cusack:
It was a finance and HR project. A project manager was brought in through the CFO's office. I was responsible for the HR element of it in terms of the requirements for the project. I was not across how the accounting, or the finance accounting, of that was done. That was not brought to steering.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Ms Cusack would have been made aware that there were problems in it.
There would have been an assumption that there were financial issues.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Deputy, please desist. I call Deputy Gibney.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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In the statement there is no reference to balance. This is something I would like to make sure we pursue in the committee. Within the transformation RTÉ is facing as a broadcaster, balance should be a question that is asked.
I have a couple of specific questions. Why are we hearing the voices of Israeli officials and official lines from the Israel Defense Forces when RTÉ clearly does not platform equivalent voices and lines from Russia in its coverage of the war in Ukraine?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst agree there is more voice from Israel in RTÉ's coverage of the conflict in Gaza compared to the voices of Russia?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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For example-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I appreciate that, but RTÉ qualifies, for example, by saying that the Hamas-led health ministry and the figures from it cannot be qualified by independent sources without also saying those independent sources cannot work in a blockade situation. RTÉ never referenced it-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am sorry, Deputy, but we wanted a quick answer. I call Deputy Cleere.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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RTÉ does not reference it-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I call Deputy Cleere.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It has been alleged that actors were brought in for the advertisement to make RTÉ look more diverse. Is this true or false?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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They were not brought in to make it look more diverse?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is perfect. I will move on to my next question as we are really tight on time. It is for the deputy general. He said €100,000 had been put aside for this particular advertisement. How much of that has been spent already?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is it expected to exceed €100,000?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The director general's salary is €250,000. Is that correct?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What is the lowest amount that a person in RTÉ who is not contracted paid?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What is the lowest?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What about a whole-time equivalent or somebody who works full-time?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There was a report in June 2023 that some staff were paid below the minimum wage. Do the witnesses confirm that every member of staff in RTÉ is paid at least the minimum wage?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have a number of questions on the coverage of the genocide in Gaza but there is not enough time. Recently, RTÉ reported an address in Italian by the new Pope in which he called for the release of all hostages. In RTÉ's commentary, this was amended to the release of all Israeli hostages. That is a change in language. My question is on whether the witnesses can assure us that RTÉ does not comply with the Israeli military censor. To get the right to operate in Israel, organisations must comply fully with the Israeli military censor. If we have to do that, there should be a health warning on any report coming from Israel, which does not happen.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Foreign journalists are not allowed into Israel.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I specifically asked about Israel.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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The director general said that filming was continuing for the advertisement that he is very willing to talk about and clarify. Has filming happened this week?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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How many people went?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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How many would normally be in Brussels if Tony Connelly was reporting?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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But five or six people are there this week. How much did that cost?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Has it gone above the €100,000?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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What is the requirement for six?
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I am happy to audition.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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They say politics is showbusiness for ugly people.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Colleagues.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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What are the requirements for six people? This is a reflection of the day-to-day life of RTÉ people whereas there are always only two in Brussels, namely, a cameraman and Tony Connelly. Why are there six?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Which is with two.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Very quickly.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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You are the director of news, are you not?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Do you want an answer?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Do you know how many went? Just for clarity, how many went to Brussels?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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We have heard five, four and three.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Next is Deputy O'Sullivan.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am doing my best here, lads.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I must catch my breath after those rapid fires.
Much of this controversy started with an individual the Cathaoirleach referenced earlier, Ryan Tubridy, and the payment of €150,000. Is RTÉ still aiming to retrieve that money? Where is it at?
My next question goes back to League of Ireland football. It is not being televised, although cup games are. What about radio? If I tune into a rugby game, I can get it on RTÉ Radio 1 Extra or some other radio station. Has this been considered for League of Ireland?
I want to reference the Irish language because we-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Deputy O'Sullivan will not get an answer if he does not finish.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the witnesses to answer my first two questions, if they can.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
The answer is that Ryan Tubridy has not paid back that amount. We have asked him. We have no legal basis, as I have said previously, but I would like him to pay it back obviously.
On the League of Ireland, we will look at radio coverage. I do not know what the rights deal is that Virgin got, so I do not know what the options are.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for their answers. I know they cannot give every dog and devil a commitment they will reflect their views but I would ask them to consider doing an audit of the staff to see whether there is an excess of sameness of opinion across a range of issues, and whether this could be affecting RTÉ's output. I hope there is not the same institutional stonewalling going forward on this because it is a real issue.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I did not mention religious.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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An audit could be done and it could be done confidentially. RTÉ could try to establish whether it has a groupthink problem.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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That does not arise if it is confidential.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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If there is a sameness of viewpoints, and if there is an elite that all think the same way on a range of issues, that is not public service broadcasting of high quality.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Mr. Bakhurst can find ways to do it. RTÉ has a duty to the public to ensure diversity of viewpoints.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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It is not just the issues that RTÉ covers; it is the issues that it does not cover.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I could give chapter and verse on this all day.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I thank Mr. Bakhurst for his answers.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Coady familiar with the Karshan ruling of the Supreme Court of 2023?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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So he knows that people cannot be self-employed for tax purposes and employed for PRSI purposes. That was the outcome of the Karshan ruling. Surely RTÉ's stance on this is not tenable, with one way for PRSI and one way for tax?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I do not appreciate the smirk. I know it is not black and white.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Ms Cusack mentioned the Eversheds report, which involved 90 people in a snapshot of a few years and of a few people. They have had a settlement, which fell far short of what they were owed over the years. If there was acceptance there was a settlement there, should there not be a settlement for the people who were not in the Eversheds report and who have not got anything in retribution?
Ms Eimear Cusack:
The Eversheds process started in 2018, with a group of people who were providing services to RTÉ as contractors. As a result of this, a number of people were offered contracts of employment. Governing principles were set up with the trade union group and there was a facilitating process afterwards to reach a settlement.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I do not think Ms Cusack is answering the question.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I do not think that question was answered. I want it noted that it was not answered.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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With the Chairman's comments in mind about irregularities that cropped up after the previous hearing, I do not want to waste time. Can the witnesses assure us that there are no other financial skeletons in the closet?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Bakhurst cannot assure us 100% that there are no other skeletons in the closest.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Bakhurst is there long enough. He should-----
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That is long enough. If Mr. Bakhurst was in the private sector, believe me, that is long enough.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Bakhurst has spent six years in senior roles.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have a few quick questions. I am glad that the Secretary General of the Department confirmed the hand-in-glove relationship between the Department and RTÉ. We will bear that in mind for future reference.
I call Senator Comyn. I apologise to her.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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With the recent announcement of the outsourcing of the broadcasting of religious services, is there a concerted effort to phase out religious content in RTÉ?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst accept that it has been mentioned that every church now or every religious location has got its own broadcasting facilities? It was usually fitted over the Covid-19 years. There is going to be a significant drop in quality of, for example, the special services. In my own area, they are looking for St. Oliver's mass for the 400th anniversary and are mentioning that it will be done by single camera. There is definitely going to be a lack of quality in that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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As I accidentally skipped Senator Comyn, is there anything else she wants to raise?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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No, it is fine.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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With the permission of the committee, I am going to take 15 minutes of our private time. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I have some quick questions. First, regarding this famous newsroom - fake news or whatever phrase people want to use – the witnesses have dealt with it. I have never had so many phone calls about an issue. Is this being produced totally in-house or how much of it is being produced using people from outside? For people looking in here, it would seem strange that RTÉ has to go out for somebody.
Second, relating to newsrooms, there are a pile of vacancies. There are many people who are saying there are no camera crews around the country. There is no mid-west correspondent at the moment. Will all those positions be filled and will there be adequate resources added?
Third, will there be no favourable treatment as regards keeping people beyond the required retirement age of 66 with an allowance of one year? That is an issue.
My final question is on a bugbear of mine. When is the quality of podcasts coming from RTÉ going to dramatically improve? I never listen to them because, to be frank, they are nowhere near the standard required, given the level of detail RTÉ has.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The witnesses can answer the first two and the other two can wait.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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What about cameramen and all of that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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No, all over the country.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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What about the retirement age of 67?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We have a robust policy in place now that the retirement age of RTÉ is 65. If people ask for an extra year, it is given to 66, and then only in respect of a very small number of contracts. We reviewed it recently because it was raised with me. We have only let 12 or 13 people in the past three years stay on beyond the age of 66.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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RTÉ have an equity issue there. I call Deputy Byrne. We can continue with this-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The witnesses can answer that at the end. That will be my last one.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I will ask to stop the clock because I am going to do it like the Chair and put three questions quickly.
On the RTÉ statement of strategy, will RTÉ meet the target on independent production of €70 million by 2027?
On diversity and reviewing, news and current affairs are generally very good, but since the general election, the panel on "The Week in Politics" has comprised seven Social Democrats, eight Labour representatives, three from Aontú and two from People Before Profit. How many Government backbenchers have appeared in the past six months on the panel on "The Weeks in Politics"? We had no speaking rights on "The Week in Politics".
Mr. O'Rourke is a very experienced chair and he came in at a difficult time. Is he satisfied that many of the challenges around corporate governance have improved?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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What about the independent production?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
On the independent production, we are going to move towards that as much as we can. Those targets were in the strategy document. The financial settlement we got from the Government for the first three years was below what that document was based on, but we are pushing very hard to get there. We are aware that legislation is going to mean that, soon, 25% of public money needs to be spent on the independent-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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What has "The Week in Politics" got against Government backbenchers?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Deputy Byrne has made his point. He does not need an answer.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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On a different note, do the witnesses feel that RTÉ can continue to operate within its current traditional revenue stream considering the fluctuation of people paying the licence fee or does RTÉ need to look at a change to Exchequer funding, as proposed by this committee in the previous Dáil term and recommended by the Future of Media Commission?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking what the witnesses feel.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I was extremely grateful to get three years guaranteed funded, which is incredibly important for us delivering changes, commissioning from the independent sector and so on. When we were discussing that, I was asked if we got the three years of funding, would we guarantee that we were not going to come back in those three years and look for more. The answer is that I can guarantee that. I made that really clear. That is the basis we are operating on.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Is RTÉ expecting a legal action from Ryan Tubridy based on him seeking information? If so, does RTÉ have the funds in place to fight any action or any potential pay out?
Regarding the new strategy, how much consultation is there and is there continuous consultation with, for example, staff on the implementation of that strategy?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
On Ryan Tubridy, we are not expecting it. It is always possible, but we have had no indication that there will be legal action at the moment. We are not expecting it at the moment but one never knows.
On the strategy, there was extensive consultation between the publication of the draft strategy and the final strategy with staff and external stakeholders, who were all extremely supportive of it. I have made it really clear to staff that, as we are implementing this, we are going to consult with all of those staff affected. That is a guarantee I gave and I intend to stand by it.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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On the IT scandal, has RTÉ done any scoping to see if there are any other IT projects in recent years that have run into similar difficulties regarding systems that were not fit for purpose or resulted in large cost overruns?
I asked how much money RTÉ had spent defending bogus self-employment claims and I await the specific figure on that. Meanwhile, does RTÉ have a litigation policy around how it approaches these cases?
RTÉ's statement indicated that a chief risk and compliance officer would join the team later this summer. Who among this leadership team currently has oversight of the work that will ultimately be within that officer's remit?
Ms Mari Hurley:
When I conducted the exercise in terms of reviewing projects greater than €500,000 since 2020, there was one additional project that went on the list to the Department, which was a channel management system. If we compare its spend relative to its initial budget, it overran by €900,000 and there would have been an impairment taken in 2019 of €390,000.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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What about the litigation policy on redundancy?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Who is over risk now?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In fairness, RTÉ's coverage of news and current affairs is excellent and it does sports really well. Would it not make sense for RTÉ to look at the possibility of a dedicated sports channel similar to the news channel? We are in an environment now where there are loads of extra space for games, repeat matches, weekly highlights. What I want is for RTÉ to commit more coverage to sport, but in particular women in sports.
I am a father of four children and a former manager of the Kilkenny and Carlow camogie teams. At best there might be four or five camogie matches in a year. There was probably more time spent talking about shorts and skorts in the coverage than there was on the actual game itself. Is that something RTÉ could look at? It would be really welcomed. RTÉ does it really well and there is definitely a market there and more people might pay the licence fee if there was that dedicated channel.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
On women's sport, there is a summer of women's sport coming up. We have all of the big tournaments coming up so that is good. Our head of sport, and all of us, are very committed to women's sport and we have a good track record in that area. We are always ambitious, within the budget-----
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What about a dedicated channel?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I do not think we are in the business of setting up new channels because we have a player and that allows the whole of the audience to see a whole range of sports. As we did during the Olympics, we can stream a whole number of sports at the same time so I do not think a sports channel is necessary. We need to maximise our rights.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am looking for a breakdown of the departments from which the voluntary exit programme applications are coming and information on how big the departments will be in the future and what size they were in the past. I am not expecting that information now. Are the witnesses aware of low morale within Raidió na Gaeltachta, especially among those who have been there for a long time and whose issues were not addressed in the recent regrading and upgrading of their positions? When is the organisation going to fully comply with the EU copyright directive to ensure that performers can receive their just desserts and that RTÉ is not asking them to alter their contracts when programmes are being shown again?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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At the moment, when a programme is rebroadcast for a second time, RTÉ is going to performers and asking them to sign away their rights for the future with one-off payments. Is Mr. Coady saying that is not happening?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
On Raidió na Gaeltachta, I have been down there several times and Ms Patricia Monahan, who is head of audio, can answer to that. I think morale is actually better than it was previously. When I was here as head of news and I went down there, it was in a very precarious place. I would say that the staff of Raidió na Gaeltachta absolutely feel part of the organisation now. The head of Raidió na Gaeltachta is on Ms Monahan's leadership team, which has never happened before.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Okay, that is fine.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am happy if the information is supplied to the committee at a later stage. I am not expecting it now.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Surely Mr. Bakhurst can give us the information into the future.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Yes, exactly.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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In her contribution about the advertisement, Ms McCarthy said that RTÉ is paying actors that are blurred out. RTÉ is essentially paying actors not to act. Is RTÉ paying for any external directors? There are lots of directors within the organisation. Is the advertisement directed by an in-house director or by an external director?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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There are loads of directors in RTÉ. Are the directors that are being employed to do this advertisement internal or external?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Does no one here know?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Is it someone external?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Yes, but Mr. Lynch is leading it. Does he know if external directors are being paid-----
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Lynch is leading it and he is not sure.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I have one final question. Information was released showing that there were 116 external activities in the last quarter of 2024. A total of 16% of those cost between €1,000 and €5,000 and 1% cost just over €10,000. I ask the witnesses to outline, for that 17%, how many people were involved and what kind of work they did.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Can Mr. Bakhurst give us some examples?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Can Mr. Bakhurst send a list of the activities?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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In fairness to the Senator, he is looking for a general list-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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-----of the kinds of activities, not of the actual people.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the Irish-language strategy, I see that under the transformation plan, the strategy is going to be reviewed. I hope that will not lead to a diminishing of any existing service provided by TG4 or on RTÉ. I am a former Irish teacher and to be fair, RTÉ coverage of Irish-language material has come on in leaps and bounds. I just hope that will not be reduced in any future review. Reference is also made to the issues of disinformation and climate. Specifically on disinformation, and this is not meant in jest, is that to monitor news or online traffic? Some here might suggest that a disinformation unit should be set up permanently to monitor some of the stuff that is said in the Chamber from time to time. I ask the witnesses to elaborate on the disinformation unit.
Ms Deirdre McCarthy:
The Deputy is referring to RTÉ Clarity, a new strand which is actually capturing a number of things. It takes a lot of resources and work to actually call out disinformation. Under the RTÉ Clarity strand, disinformation is one part but an awful lot of it is about tackling misinformation. Where there is a lot of noise in or around particular events or stories, we aim to bring clarity to it; that is the purpose of it. The other important issue, which is very clear, is that people want to know how we do our jobs. They want to understand how we verify and source stories and how we do what we do. The purpose of RTÉ Clarity is also aimed at bringing some clarity to that too.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I think we need to focus on non-information as well, and the issues that just do not get covered. I do not think the system is capable of bringing that out.
On religious affairs broadcasting and RTÉ's plans to deal with external partners, is it the intention to continue with the broadcasting of daily mass on RTÉ News Now, or Channel 21, which I know many people have found very helpful? Is it at the stage, or can it be gotten to the stage where liturgical events that are being broadcast are actually going out live, as distinct from programmes with a half-hour delay? For obvious reasons, it means a lot to people to know that what they are tuning into is live or as live can be. I understand that has not always been the case.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Has RTÉ measured the group? Does Mr. Bakhurst have any idea how large it is?
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Yes, for people who cannot get out.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Did RTÉ allow people who were misclassified to use the voluntary exit programme calculator from the date from which they were deemed to be employees? If such people were applying for the voluntary exit package, were they allowed to use the date from which they were deemed to be employees, even if they were misclassified?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I am referring to the people that RTÉ had to back-pay PRSI for. For example, someone was working in RTÉ from 2012 to 2018 but was not deemed to be an employee for those years but then that PRSI was back-paid so the person was deemed an employee from 2012. He or she was misclassified.. If that person wanted to access the voluntary exit package, would he or she be able to use the date from which he or she was deemed to be an employee?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Would they be allowed to use all of the dates for which they were deemed to have been employees, if they had been misclassified? I just want to get an idea of whether they were allowed to use them.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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They were not. I do not think that is very fair.
Mr. Coady said he is aware of the Karshan case. Can he commit to engaging with the people whose tax, pensions, leave and benefits need to be rectified? They are not mutually exclusive any more, as the Supreme Court said.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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There are an awful lot of people affected. I do not accept that the people on Eversheds were on more money. There are lots of people who were on less money and they really are at the end of their tether now. They have been working and giving their heart and soul to RTÉ and they are due pensions, maternity leave, sick leave and annual leave. I am not talking about the highly paid. I am talking about low-paid workers. Can RTÉ engage with them please?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I hope it will continue to do so.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Given that the redundancy programme is three and a half times oversubscribed, how confident is RTÉ, in the context of the big disparity between what a journalist earns and what some of the presenting talent earns, that it will be able to attract quality journalists in the future?
Ms Deirdre McCarthy:
Attracting journalists is already a challenge.
The media landscape has changed. There are a lot more opportunities out there for journalists in different types of sectors, never mind within the media sector. It is also a challenge to attract journalists who can afford to live in Dublin. It may only be for a maternity leave contract or a backfill. The challenge is already difficult.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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How is RTÉ addressing that challenge?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Does that involve offering more money or perhaps better use of regional journalism as well? Ms McCarthy mentioned how expensive it is to be based in the capital.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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We all want journalism to be moved out into the regions to reflect more societies and communities. Is that a possibility?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Is there a commitment that there will be more journalists out in the field, outside of Dublin?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Will there be new offices or new bureaus opened?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Is anyone concerned there may have been a conflict of interest surrounding the procurement of the IT system? Can we get reassurance on that? Who got the contract, and were they-----
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That is not the question. The question is if there is conflict of interest.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That is not the question. The question is simple. Mr. Coady is reassuring me there was no conflict of interest in the procurement of the IT system.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have a podcast question, which is a big issue for me considering the amount of driving I do. Transparency regarding retirement at 66 or 67 is also something the witnesses really need to reflect on. I go back to this famous news production, which has really annoyed a lot of people. Are the camera crew and technicians from inside or outside the organisation?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Outside. To the general public, that is bananas.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am sorry. Questions first, if Mr. Bakhurst does not mind.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is bananas to the general public, and I will say why. We are around here long enough to know there are production teams for demos and ads within RTÉ. Is that correct?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Wait a second. I think there was also a creative management group of three people brought in around 2019 or 2020. Let us just say there is a group of people who do this work and have done it in the past. The general public, who I am reflecting because that is my job, think it is bananas because if there are people inside who can do this work, why is it not being done inside? That is my question. My other question relates to podcasts and retirement at 66 or 67.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
On why we bring people in, the team inside are producers and commissioners. It is the most efficient way to do it, rather than having camera crews hanging around. It also invests money, as I understand people would like us to do, in the creative sector outside RTÉ rather than bringing all resources in-house. Of course, we would use RTÉ resources if we had them but, to pick up on a previous point, we do not have enough camera crews as it is.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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RTÉ has the capacity; it just does not have the people.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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They do not have time.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The production of this could not be done in-house.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Well people have different views-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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People have different views on that. I will move on quickly, because I do not want to break my own rules, to the podcasts and the retirement at 66 and 67.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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In the middle of a GAA season, I am listening to podcasts from all of RTÉ’s competitors and I am not listening to RTÉ. I do not think Deputy Cleere or anybody else mad into the GAA and other sports is either.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I know-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I am not going to get personal. The retirement at 66 or 67 is the last thing before we close off the meeting.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is more how they are enacted rather than what they say.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That was an extensive session. I thank the witnesses for coming in. That concludes our public business. Once the witnesses have left, we will go into private session to deal with our own business.