Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 22 May 2024
Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport And Media
Support for Development of Regional Film and Television Production: Discussion (Resumed)
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Today we are having a discussion around the support and development of regional film and television production. Our committee has been strongly supportive of this and we are very appreciative of the work of everybody within the sector and indeed of the golden period that Ireland is currently experiencing. We want to look at ways in which we as a committee can support that and in terms of recommendations that will go from this committee to both our Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin, and to the Minister for Finance.
We are meeting today with representatives from Screen Producers Ireland, Animation Ireland, Ardmore and Troy Studios, Telegael and Ardán to resume our examination of supports for the development of regional film and TV production.
I welcome, from Screen Producers Ireland: Mr. Anthony Muldoon, director of strategic policy, Mr. James Hickey, Copper Alley Productions and board member, and Ms Maggie Breathnach, Red Shoe Productions and board member; from Animation Ireland: Mr. Ronan McCabe, chief executive officer, Ms Catherine Keane, head of legal affairs at Cartoon Saloon in Kilkenny, and Ms Moe Honan, industry chair of Animation Ireland and owner and producer at Moetion Films in Galway, who is joining us on MS Teams; from Ardmore and Troy Studios: Ms Elaine Geraghty, managing director; from Telegael: Mr. Paul Cummins, chief executive officer; and from Ardán: Mr. Alan Duggan, chief executive officer, and Mr. Gar O'Brien Collins, Western Region Audiovisual Production, WRAP, executive.
The format of today's meeting is that the witnesses from the representative groups will be invited to deliver an opening statement of about three minutes. That will be followed by questions and answers from members of the committee. As the witnesses will be aware, the committee will publish the opening statements on its web page.
Before we proceed to the opening statements, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses regarding references that witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. However, a number of today's witnesses are giving evidence remotely and from places outside the parliamentary precincts and, as such, may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present does. Such witnesses may think it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter, although it might be a bit late to do that now. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in regard to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make her or him identifiable.
I invite Mr. Muldoon to make his opening statement.
Mr. Anthony Muldoon:
I am grateful for the invitation to join the committee today to discuss the development of regional film-making in Ireland. Over the past four years, this committee has consistently been supportive of the Irish film and television sector. For that, we are truly appreciative. I am also aware of the considerable wider political support that exists for regional film-making, which is very welcome.
Screen Producers Ireland, SPI, is a representative group made up of over 200 independent production companies. SPI supports the interests of independent producers working in independent film, television, animation and digital production in Ireland. SPI aims to ensure a working landscape that allows our industry to thrive. I am the director of strategic policy. I am joined by two SPI board members, James Hickey from Copper Alley Productions and Maggie Breathnach from Red Shoe Productions. Mr. Hickey is the ex-CEO of Screen Ireland. He has been heavily involved in the Irish film and television industry for over 30 years. Ms Breathnach is a regional producer who made the brave decision to move her company from Dublin to An Rinn in County Waterford seven years ago. She has made a considerable success of it in the interim. She has shown incredible ability to develop her company and has produced programmes for TG4, RTÉ and Sky Arts. Her insights into how to develop and grow regional film-making come from experience and perseverance.
We have four key recommendations that are as follows: the development of a regional filming strategy that covers both infrastructure and funding over a ten-year period to enable the screen industry to be embedded regionally; to increase the Screen Ireland nationwide additional production fund to €10 million; that Departments, working together, develop a reimagined way to implement the section 481 regional uplift scheme outside the Dublin-Wicklow area using a new regional aid map; and while we support the section 481 Gaeltacht uplift proposal, we feel it requires further consideration on its implementation by the Departments responsible for finance and culture.
These measures are required because audiovisual production is a resource-heavy process that requires capital investment to cover a range of costs, including production development, highly specialised crew, location costs and equipment rental, among other things. These costs are amplified when the production is in a region outside of Dublin or Wicklow due to the emerging nature of the sector in these areas. It is estimated there is an additional cost of 8% to 12% in producing live-action productions outside of Dublin and Wicklow.
The audiovisual sector in Ireland is internationally recognised for its capacity to create high quality productions due to the highly skilled crew, actors and wider creative talent that we have in this country. Most recently, this was emphasised by the west Cork production, "Bodkin", which was filmed in a beautiful part of the world, by a new Irish-European co-production, "September Says", which premiered yesterday at the Cannes film festival in the Un Certain Regard competition, and a recent documentary, "Lily and Lolly", about the lost Yeats sisters, which was produced by Maggie Breathnach and which is an all-female production. To further develop and increase production levels across the country, it is crucial to address the obstacles the industry faces in the regions in order to remove them. A regional strategy developed by Government and industry stakeholders should encompass all elements of the production cycle and build the necessary infrastructure to sustain a balanced and thriving industry nationwide.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I call Mr. McCabe.
Mr. Ronan McCabe:
We know animation is a longer process than live action, so I will go a little over the speaking time of three minutes. On behalf of my colleagues Catherine Keane and Moe Honan, who is joining us online, I am grateful for the invitation to appear before the committee to discuss supports for the development of regional film and television production.
Animation Ireland is the representative body for the animation industry on the island of Ireland, with 43 member studios employing more than 2,500 people full-time. Our sector is well spread geographically, with animation studios and their workforces operating across all parts of the island. Animation Ireland members are globally recognised world leaders in animation, producing award-winning animated films, television series and digital content for both children and adults and viewed in over 180 countries and territories worldwide. Our members are building companies of scale, creating high-value, all-island and regionally spread investment and employment, innovating and embracing new technologies and nurturing Ireland’s culture on-screen.
Screen content plays a vital role in how Ireland is perceived abroad and is an essential element of our cultural exports and the projection of Ireland’s soft power internationally. Without indigenous content, Irish audiences would not see their stories reflected back to them on-screen and our diverse storytelling voices would go unheard. Without targeted tax incentives, our domestic market would simply not have the resources to bring our stories to the world. Around the world, these supports are commonplace and most countries have investment reliefs or production tax credits which are the main mechanism for these supports.
Ireland was a leader in this type of support and the section 481 credit, at 32%, with the potential of a 90% advance payment under certain conditions, was the envy of many and a major factor in the growth of the industry over the past 20 years. However, in recent years, we have seen the competitive landscape for these production supports move significantly and we now find Ireland behind some other locations, not least our nearest neighbour. This has come sharply into focus with the announcement in March of the new level of 40% tax credit in the UK for independent productions under £15 million, or approximately €17.5 million to €18 million. We are now at a significant competitive disadvantage to the UK. The impact of this in the medium and long term could see us losing both inward productions and, potentially, encouraging, if not forcing, local producers to consider the transfer of production out of the State.
The animation industry is ready to deliver success under the smart specialisation strategy for the digital creative industries and by delivering more jobs in more local clusters spread right across the island. Currently, Galway, Kilkenny, Belfast and Derry are the only hubs outside of Dublin to have a substantial animation presence. However, Animation Ireland believes we can exponentially improve on regional development if given the necessary resources. Remote working and working from more regional locations suit the animation industry.
Based on the evidence provided by our industry colleagues at Ardán, we believe the reintroduction of a regional support could benefit the country as a whole. If the Government were to reintroduce a regional support we suggest that it be extended to the entire country outside the greater Dublin economic area. The generally accepted best decentralisation model is for animation companies to work with a number of clusters and innovation centres around the country availing of and supporting the Government-backed broadband and regions of enterprise initiatives.
The animation industry is at the forefront of the smart specialisation strategy. As an example, Studio Meala, a small successful creative-driven company, moved out of Dublin to Boyle, County Roscommon, where it is creating a new animation hub and cluster of expertise for the region. This initiative was based on a regional uplift remaining in place. We believe that this success story could be replicated across the country with an extended and targeted regional support, which would position Ireland as a digital leader while also delivering on the objectives in the national Digital Creative Industries Roadmap 2024-26.
Animation Ireland is the lead agency for the National Talent Academy for Animation. The academy has been established to support skills development across all regions of Ireland. A regional support would complement the work of the academy and assist in the delivery of its objectives, which support remote and blended learning for a diverse group of artists and technicians.
The animation industry in Ireland comprises two major components. These are service work with regard to producing animation for international partners by way of foreign direct investment, and through creating our own intellectual property. Story development and exploitation is a key driver of productivity and long-term growth. Most Irish studios attempt to find the balance between service work, which affords companies the ability to build their studios and gain expertise by working with the major animation financiers and broadcasters, and reinvesting that expertise and capital into developing our own stories in the form of IP creation. Animation companies throughout the country also partner with other studios throughout Europe and the world to engage in co-productions. These are underpinned by the co-production treaties Ireland has entered into. This approach also enables the retention of IP, as well as enhancing skills and talent across the industry.
The ability of Irish producers to bring Irish financing to a project in the form of our section 481 tax credit, as well as broadcaster and screen agency investment, are absolutely critical to the ability of Irish studios to retain their IP. The funds generated from IP are then reinvested in the development of future projects, securing jobs, building companies of scale and creating a virtuous circle of investment for companies. Section 481 and the reintroduction of a regional support are critical elements that helps balance our inherently small domestic market and affords Irish companies the ability to operate at a level that secures long-term sustainable investment and growth in the industry. I thank the committee for its time and for allowing Animation Ireland the opportunity to discuss the supports today.
Ms Elaine Geraghty:
I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it today to discuss the very important subject of supports for the regional film and TV production section. I am the managing director of Ardmore Studios and Troy Studios.
By way of background on the two studios, Ardmore Studios was established in 1958 and is located in Bray, County Wicklow. It is Ireland’s longest-established studio. At Ardmore we have eight sound stages ranging from 3,000 sq. ft to 23,250 sq. ft, comprising more than 90,000 sq. ft of stage space in total. Ardmore’s brand and reputation is recognised by producers throughout the world and has been home to hundreds of national and international productions over the years. Our newest facility is Troy Studios, located in Castletroy, Limerick. It comprises 26 acres, with four sound stages totalling 100,000 sq. ft and an overall footprint of 350,000 sq. ft under one roof, with a backlot. Both Ardmore Studios and Troy Studios were acquired by Hackman Capital Partners in 2021. It is one of the leading real estate and studio services organisation with studio assets in the US and Europe.
Any discussion or review on regional development of the screen industry has to be considered in the context of State support generally, namely, section 481. Consistent and continuous commitment by Governments over the years to retaining and enhancing section 481 has contributed significantly to the delivery of a well-developed, ambitious and successful Irish screen industry for indigenous and international incoming productions. The recent increase in the cap on section 481 to €125 million per-project enables Ireland to compete for the large-scale projects that were out of our budget league heretofore. It is an incredibly important measure for our industry and the recent European Commission approval of the increase allows discussions to take place in earnest and we expect to yield dividends from it in the next 12 to 18 months. It has made Ireland a much more attractive location and I hope we will see the tangible results within a two-year period.
While acknowledging the impact of the improvements in section 481, which are very welcome, it has to be seen and understood in a globally competitive market, where new fiscal initiatives and growth incentives are regularly put in place in other markets to attract productions to their locations. As my colleague Mr. McCabe just mentioned, the recent UK announcement is an example. It has raised the bar again for its industry with fiscal policies and an enhanced tax support of 40% tax relief for films budgeted up to £15 million. This aims to reignite the independent mid-sized production sector. I mention this because it presents an existential threat to our indigenous industry, with projects of this budget level being the cornerstone of the screen industry. When we discuss and look at enhancing regional development of our industry it is also very much a case of protecting what we have, holding on to what we have and not losing it inevitably to Northern Ireland and the UK.
The importance of the regional uplift cannot be overstated. We, as the owners and operators of Troy Studios in Limerick, can attest to its impact when it was in place and when it tapered off and eventually concluded. The intention of the regional uplift was to decentralise the industry from the Dublin and Wicklow area and, moreover, to support the growth of the industry in the regions. It was greatly welcomed. It was by no means a perfect model. It was a bit of a blunt instrument. Basing it on the EU state aid map was problematic. Castletroy just made it into the current map. It would have been very difficult if it did not. There are also issues with the radius. The Department's figures for the 2022-23 period show it issued a total of 436 certificates that allowed indigenous and incoming productions to claim section 481 relief. Of these, 17.4% were for regional uplift projects.
Troy Studios was established around the same time the regional uplift was introduced. To give members an idea of its impact, for one large-scale production at Troy there were 367 working crew in total. Of these, 111 were within a 45 km radius of the studio and a further eight were within a 60 km of the studio. In total, more than 60% of all crew who worked on this one production were from outside the central hub of Dublin and Wicklow. Furthermore, a result of having this production on site enabled a direct link-in with local third-level institutions, with the creation of tailored courses to train and upskill potential crew looking to gain employment in the film and TV sector.
Any element of policy seeking to create change in this industry needs time. I like to refer to it as a long runway. We need time to develop skills and a crew base. We need time to build a production pipeline at Troy Studios so that opportunities are created for training and employment. We also need time to develop infrastructure and resources to support a regional screen industry.
Tremendous work has been done by Screen Ireland to develop skills in the regions. I chair of three of the steering committees, including that for Crew Academy West, which covers the mid-west and the Troy area. I look first-hand at what is involved in identifying, nurturing and growing the skills base. The cessation last year of the regional uplift, albeit a model with some shortcomings, caused large problems for the industry, for Troy Studios and for production companies. While Screen Ireland has put in place a temporary loan-based assistance funding measure, there is concern about the level of funding available and the fact that this is only a temporary measure. It does not provide a solution for productions that have, on average, a lead-in time of 18 to 24 months.
As the managing director of the largest studio under one roof in Ireland ,I can speak on the regional uplift directly and its impact specifically on our business. There is no doubt but that the purchase of Troy Studios was the largest financial commitment made in regional studio infrastructure in Ireland at the time. I know there are plans for others. The regional uplift was of significant importance in relation to the rationale for the business case of this decision. We were home to one of the largest productions being made in the world. As I have mentioned already, we employed locally-provided production crew training and positively impacted the local economy. However, we immediately witnessed the negative impact of the removal of the regional uplift. We lost out to productions selecting other countries for their film or TV productions. We have experienced great success in Ardmore but this is a loss to places outside of the Dublin and Wicklow area.
Cost is clearly a key factor. In terms of the 5% figure cited previously to the committee as the potential additional cost of a production outside the Dublin and Wicklow area, I can confirm that a recent small-scale production based in Troy for the past 12 months calculated its additional cost of producing in the region as 8%.
This comprised a number of elements, including logistics, crewing, transport and so on.
In terms of recommendations, in order to identify the key areas, an independent detailed report into a replacement of the regional uplift is required. The report should be rooted in delivering a long-term, industry and government collaborative, sustainable strategy, encompassing all areas of television and production, with recommendations to address the core need for regional training, employment, infrastructure and technology. Critically, this must deliver a recommendation to replace or modify the regional uplift initiative, its structure and long-term implementation. Time is of the essence. In tandem, we also concur with Screen Producers Ireland that the Screen Ireland fund should be extended and potentially increased. I apologise for going a little over time. I thank the committee for the invitation. I am happy to answer any questions.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith ag Elaine Geraghty. Anois beidh Paul Cummins as Telegael.
Mr. Paul Cummins:
Go raibh maith ag an Leas-Chathaoirleach as ucht cuireadh a thabhairt dom freastal anseo innu. Telegael was established in 1988. We employ 85 full-time staff, and hundreds more employed on a project-by-project basis. We operate animation and live-action studios, which is quite unusual in Ireland, creating film and television content, 90% of which is for the global market. Headquartered in An Spidéal, County Galway, our motto is "fréamhaithe anseo... ag síneadh amach ar fud an domhain", or "rooted here, reaching out around the world". Tá físeán gearr agam le cuid den obair a dhéanann muid a thaispeáint, más féidir liom.
Mr. Paul Cummins:
Go raibh maith ag baill an choiste as ucht an deis a thabhairt dom é sin a thaispeáint. In 2006, Telegael acquired the Roger Corman Film Studios in Baile na hAbhann, County Galway. One of our first live-action productions for TG4, "Aifric", won the Irish Film and Television Awards for best young people’s series three years in a row and has been adapted into many international languages. Our productions have been translated into over 50 languages and sold in 180 territories. We have partnered with international broadcasters, co-producers, distributors and streaming platforms. Co-production with other international producers is very much our model.
The Irish screen sector has enjoyed huge international success of late. According to figures by Screen Ireland, Ireland saw a record-breaking €500 million spend across the sector in 2021. However, some 75% of this amount comes from inward production, meaning productions from overseas who are shooting here and partnering with an Irish company to access the section 481 tax credit. This brings high levels of employment, training and skills in addition to increased local spend. On the other hand, following the expiry of the section 481 regional uplift, production levels outside of counties Dublin and Wicklow have decreased, pointing to several challenges facing the Irish screen sector.
Companies of scale are needed in the regions. Most productions and spending are concentrated around a relatively small number of Dublin and Wicklow-based companies. Shooting in the regions involves additional travel and accommodation costs, which has an impact on budgets. Ireland faces heightened competition from countries offering more attractive incentives and tax credits. Our public broadcasters, RTÉ and TG4, lack the financial capacity of larger overseas counterparts and this reduces the investment Irish co-producers can bring to the table.
While initiatives such as the Screen Ireland nationwide additional production fund are welcome, it is important that it prioritise regionally based producers over short-lived regional shoots, which provide little long-lasting benefit to the locality. Regionally based producers are rooted in and committed to their region and communities. Studios like Telegael in County Galway and Cartoon Saloon in Kilkenny serve as regional anchors, nurturing local talent and economies by building hubs and providing employment, skills and opportunities for a wide range of local talent, including directors, writers, artists, animators, designers, technicians, post-production teams and composers as well as local acting talent, including children for on screen voice acting. Telegael has established important relationships with third level colleges in our region, specifically Atlantic Technological University, ATU, in Galway, University of Galway, Technological University of the Shannon, TUS, in Limerick and Athlone TUS. We work with them to help structure courses to service the industry needs.
The dynamics of animation and live action differ significantly. While live-action producers generally rely on freelance talent and crews, animation studios employ permanent staff year-round and make significant and ongoing investment in studios, technologies and training. Animation’s significantly longer development and production lead times require sustained investment and financing. Animation productions can have a long shelf life and are easily revised into other languages. Animation producers who can retain a share of the intellectual property, IP, in their productions have the potential to generate future revenue streams, including licensing and merchandising, which can add value to their enterprises.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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We need to move to the next speaker.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Please do so very briefly - in under 30 seconds, if possible.
Mr. Paul Cummins:
To be on par with the new UK film tax credit, we recommend increasing the section 481 tax credit from 32% to 40%, at least for the regions and if that cannot be worked out because of the aid map, the increase should apply to the whole country. Screen Ireland's nationwide additional production fund should be focused on developing and supporting regional production companies. Screen Ireland should also establish a slate development funding scheme, targeted at regional production companies, along similar lines to the nationwide scheme introduced during the Covid-19 outbreak in 2020. Finally, a properly funded TG4 can be a major springboard for the industry in the Gaeltacht and the regions. The public funding allocated to TG4 is extremely low, at approximately 50% of that received by Welsh-language broadcaster, S4C. We recommend the implementation of the five-year funding model contained in the TG4 Statement of Strategy 2023-2027, which has been approved by Dáil Éireann.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith ag Paul Cummins. He may be aware that while his audiovisual presentation was running, it appeared on screens around the House. I got a text message from a colleague wondering whether we had Elmo and Peppa Pig giving evidence before the committee. I would not comment on the quality of the witnesses, were they to come in. The final presentation is by Mr. Alan Duggan of Ardán.
Mr. Alan Duggan:
Go raibh maith ag an Leas-Chathaoirleach. I thank the Vice Chairman and the members for the kind invitation to appear before the committee today. I am CEO of Ardán and I am joined today by Mr. Gar O'Brien Collins, who is our WRAP - western region audiovisual producers fund - executive.
Ardán is a talent development agency focused on film, TV, games and animation. Formerly known as the Galway Film Centre, we provide a platform for creators to tell their stories and provide support through advice, training, resources and funding. Ardán manages a number of key initiatives that inform our point of view on regional industry development. In collaboration with the Western Development Commission, Ardán manages the WRAP fund and commission supported by the local authorities of Clare, Donegal, Galway City and County, Leitrim, Mayo, Roscommon and Sligo, as well as Údarás na Gaeltachta.
We also manage the National Talent Academy for Film & TV on behalf of Screen Ireland, which has a special focus on equality, diversity and inclusion and includes regional voices. On behalf of Galway city and county, we also manage the UNESCO City of Film designation that focuses on grassroots opportunities for filmmakers. We also chair the Western AV Forum, a collective of key stakeholders for film, television, games and animation in the west of Ireland. It is these initiatives that give us a top-to-bottom view of the industry in the regions. Based on this view, we are calling for the establishment of a ten-year regional film and TV industry strategy focused on sustainable regional capacity and activity through investment in regional producers, regional crew, regional infrastructure, and regional production.
As was mentioned already, approximately 75% of section 481-supported production in Ireland is based on inward production. Most of this activity is driven by a handful of Dublin-Wicklow-based production companies with established international reputations. This concentrates production activity in these areas. This draws crews away from the regions for continuity of work while simultaneously leading to a narrative around the cost of moving a production into the regions because of the lack of crew outside Dublin-Wicklow. In this respect, initiatives such as the section 481 regional uplift scheme and Screen Ireland’s nationwide fund have sought to address only the symptoms of this issue, which are the cost of travel, accommodation and per diemsassociated with the travel of crew from Dublin. A holistic strategy must instead deal with the root cause of this regional drift cycle by anchoring regional production with regionally-based producers.
The regional development strategy must, therefore, address the imbalance between the regions and Dublin-Wicklow while respecting the symbiotic relationship between inward and indigenous production. Inward production into the regions must continue to be supported to maintain activity while indigenous regional producers are supported to grow. This can be achieved through: agnostic or automatic funding supports, such as a return to the full regional uplift scheme for a minimum of ten years, alongside a 40% incentive for Independent films and a Gaeltacht uplift scheme; a creative regional development and production support through positively-biased discretionary funding provided through Screen Ireland; cluster development through the support of increased infrastructure and crew training leveraging existing competencies; and the business development of regional producers via funding and mentoring through the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. I again thank the committee for its attention and we welcome questions from members.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Duggan and all our witnesses who have presented. We move now to the question-and-answer session. The speaking rota has been circulated and each member will have a slot of approximately ten minutes. I will be reasonably lenient. I call Senator Warfield.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chair. I thank all our witnesses for their detailed contributions. I put my first question today to the representatives of Screen Ireland when they were here last time. It relates to research in the sector. When we look back at research from the heritage, arts and audiovisual sectors, it all comes from different years. It is all very old too. The heritage sector research, for example, comes from 2009, while I think the data on the arts sector comes from 2010. I think the information from the audiovisual industry comes from 2015. This is the Olsberg report. Screen Ireland said it was looking at updating that report. Is there a need to do this? Understanding our culture is important. It says something about how we value our culture that we do not do enough to track it regularly. I would be interested in hearing comments on this area of research.
Mr. James Hickey:
I thank the Senator for his comments, with which I entirely agree. The Olsberg report was actually from around 2017, but I strongly agree it should be updated at this stage. There is a need for information concerning and understanding of what the situation is now in this regard. As mentioned by some of the other contributors, it would be very helpful to focus on exactly the extent to which production is focused on the Dublin-Wicklow region. Some of the representatives here have mentioned things like, for example, most of the 75% of section 481-supported inward production taking place in the Dublin-Wicklow region. My estimation is that somewhere between 70% and 90% of all production activity takes place in the Dublin-Wicklow area. This is the issue that I think we are trying to focus on. I agree with the Senator concerning the idea that we do need as much information as possible on how to show this is the case and then come to conclusions in relation to solutions. I suggest to the Senator that not only do we need the information but also practical solutions for how to resolve the imbalance we all know exists and how we can move the situation forward. I thank the committee.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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On the proposals, I direct my question to Mr. Muldoon. He mentioned the Gaeltacht in his four recommendations. I refer to where it was asked that support be given to the section 481 Gaeltacht uplift proposal but that Screen Producers Ireland also felt this initiative requires further consideration on its implementation by the Department of Finance and the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media. Can Mr. Muldoon expand on this point?
Mr. Anthony Muldoon:
Yes, of course. At the moment, there is a policy proposal from TG4 and Údarás na Gaeltachta that refers to the uplift proposal. One of the points made is that it is possible to have a situation where there is a regional uplift scheme under the remit of section 481 for companies based within the boundary areas of the Gaeltacht but that production could then take place outside the boundary areas. I am not entirely sure how realistic this approach is, as much as we support the concept. To give an example, if we look at the section 481 list of beneficiaries now, the TG4 Irish-language productions currently benefiting from the provisions of this section are predominantly those from Cine4, that is, Irish language feature films and maybe one or two TV dramas and creative documentaries. The number is not vast, however. The cost to do this, therefore, would be minimal and the impact would be large but the question is around where the activity would happen. My understanding would be that if a regional uplift scheme were to be in place, then all the activity must happen within the boundary of the Gaeltacht or at a certain distance around it. This aspect is the one that needs to be figured out. I say this because when we figure this out, it might be actually quite a simple fix and could have a major impact. As a producer, Ms Breathnach may be able to confirm it would have a big impact.
Ms Maggie Breathnach:
If section 481 support did come into the regions and the Gaeltacht areas it would have a major impact. As a Gaeltacht producer, predominantly in creative documentaries, to go back a little, in the context of the regional uplift section 481 support previously in place, we were successful with two projects in this regard. We were based in the regions and producing there but we did not qualify for the regional uplift scheme. It was a travel thing. A representative was coming from Waterford, 45 km away. He was adjudged to live too far away. This was one reason we fell down on the application. Although our production company was based in the region, we also fell down on the fact that we were travelling all over Ireland and were not located in one spot during the filming. This meant we could not obtain support. These kinds of conditions can be quite frustrating if a fund is available and you are not ticking all the boxes. We did qualify for section 481. It is very important to say that those two projects had a major impact on me moving my company from Dublin to An Rinn. Bhí sé really tábhachtach agus as sin, from that, I have a trainee who started with me just out of the pandemic and is still with me today because of the section 481 qualification. This just shows how impactful section 481 and this initiative, and similar ones, are to producers in rural areas. They are really tábhachtach. Sin é an méid.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I turn next to the European Commission and this is a question for anyone to address. As has been mentioned, it has agreed a new regional aid map. Representatives of the Department of Finance were here in the last session and said the new regional aid map covered a significantly smaller geographical area in this State and would, therefore, no longer be an effective mechanism. Why is it no longer being seen as an effective mechanism, other than it covering a smaller area? Is there any reason for this to be the case? I suppose this is a question for the Department of Finance.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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Did the increase in support to section 481 of €53 million in full-year costs offset?
Mr. Anthony Muldoon:
Not at all. It is more to do with the European Commission rules around what is applicable in a state aid map. For example, in Croatia, the whole country is a state aid map and the whole country is applicable. In Ireland, it is 35%. It is to do with European Commission rules as opposed to the Irish Department rules, if that makes sense.
The question that comes from that is that if we have this widespread support for regional film making, which we have, how do we use inventive ways to get around that? For example, in Portugal, their regional audiovisual incentive is based on a low-density map. If you are filming in a rural area with low density, you get bumps on the incentive which is very positive because then you are doing exactly what Mr. Duggan spoke about, which is bringing crew in and building a sector. One of the questions for the Departments of Finance and culture, Screen Ireland and the sector as a whole is on whether we could devise a map and bring that to the Commission. Maybe it would be a map that is based on audiovisual economic activity density.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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If Mr. Muldoon has detail of what the cost would be to bring us in line with the British increase to the tax relief, maybe he could circulate that to the committee.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I would say it is eye-watering.
Mr. Anthony Muldoon:
It is not, actually. That is the really interesting thing.
If you look at any section 481 project across genre that has a global budget of €20 million and you apply the 8%, so it is going from 32% to 40% on those projects, the cost approximately is an additional €20 million in tax forgone. That is an approximate because these are numbers that were done by an accountant adviser who shared them with us. In fact, while, as a policy proposal, it looks eye-watering, in reality it is extraordinarily good value for the impact it would have because you are looking at projects and you suddenly become really competitive with the UK. For example, I was at a talk at the weekend on the new tax credit in the UK. The numbers are startling when you are in a room with loads of producers from the UK and Europe talking about it but one of the most interesting things about it is that there is no real protection for British independent productions within it. This is because all you have to have is an intent to release theatrically - that, in itself, favours streamers - and a British writer or director, or to be a co-production, which are quite low bars from the point of view of protecting independent production companies and independent features in the UK. There is a real danger with the tax credit increase in the UK but to solve it in our situation does not cost a huge amount of money relative to other initiatives that can happen.
Fintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Muldoon and the other guests.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Was Ms Geraghty signalling to come in on that?
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan is next.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Leas-Chathaoirleach mentioned at the outset that it was a west Cork love-in. I would particularly like to welcome Anthony, who is pretty much a neighbour of mine in Clonakilty, and Gar. It is odd having Gar O'Brien across from me in an Oireachtas committee. We started school together, say, when we were five.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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If the Deputy is to have this west Cork love-in, he can conduct it afterwards.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I have nine minutes. I intend to use them.
Gar and I were at school together from the age of four. It was Gar who got me into all these weird sci-fi shows, such as "Firefly". "Star Wars" is not that weird, but we used have these discussions. I remember one debate about Spielberg where, I think, he said Spielberg was an average director. I had never heard the likes of it. It is great to have them here. It is just great to see such enthusiasm around the Irish film and television sector and animation.
We have probably been guilty of falling over ourselves in terms of recent successes and how healthy the sector seems to be but what is clear, and the reason for this session, is that we cannot take this for granted. I suppose the whole point of this session is that we, as a committee, produce a report and get it done quick and in time for any pre-budget discussions. That is vital. This is why the witnesses contributions here are far more important than anything I have to say about west Cork and they need to use the opportunity so that it is put into the report and we can use that as leverage.
In terms of the regional uplift, places like Cork did not fair well under regional uplift. I am not too sad that not it is almost an equal playing field. I think it produces an opportunity to rectify that. What I want to get into here today is the nitty-gritty of that and all witnesses are free to answer.
I refer to reimagined regional uplift or ten-year strategies. Could the witnesses elaborate and go into more detail about how that might look? Mr. Muldoon already developed on it as to how maps might look. I do not think we are bound by EU state aid maps when one considers that the Leas-Chathaoirleach would often talk about the idea of introducing a capital programme for arts and film, which is a fantastic idea. I do not think we are bound by any state aid maps when it comes to allocating funding to GAA clubs, rugby clubs or athletics clubs. There is a precedent there. My first question is to whoever wants to take it. Could someone go into a bit more detail about how a ten-year strategy might look and how a re-imagined section 481 might look?
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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They are small questions. Who wants to take them?
Mr. Anthony Muldoon:
The key piece here is that it has to be consistent and it has to be followed through. Ms Geraghty mentioned in her contribution about how the uplift, for example, tapered. If you look at the uplift numbers which Ardán produced, they show quite clearly that once the uplift reduced to 3% that is when it starts going down substantially. Before that, the uplift was successful to a point. The fact that it tapered actually worked against it because people knew what was coming and planned elsewhere. You really need it to be consistent.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Across a long period.
Ms Maggie Breathnach:
Coming from An Rinn and being a small company that scales-up according to projects, and scales down, I guess it is important. We are in the south east - an hour from Cork, an hour from Kilkenny and a good bit away from Galway, but we love Galway.
We have a course in Nemeton, run by Nemeton, taking in graduates. I am there. We produce, in Waterford, the largest number of hours of television, outside of Galway or Ireland, in the country. We are an automatic cluster, if there was long-term investment and goals so that we could work with our colleagues in Galway or wherever, provided that we can take those students.
I take some of Irial Mac Murchú's students every year from Nemeton to work with me where I can. I go in and give talks, because it is all about the long tail. There is no point in teaching kids or telling them they will have a job today and not tomorrow. It is about harnessing that talent, keeping them and showing that if you dream, it can happen in our small areas.
If there are clusters of that and long-term investment, it does not have to be huge investment to start with but just that you know it. A young person growing up will know that they can either come home or start a company in their own area and that there is a job there, and that they can rear their family where they grew up and look outwards. That is incredible. If I was told 25 years ago when I left home to study in the Dún Laoghaire College of Art and Design that I would be running my own company in An Rinn and looking to Sky Arts for investment, I would have said that there is not a hope in hell. Dare to dream and it can happen, but if we do not have long-term investment, goals and clusters, I cannot do it on my own. I need a little bit of back-up and a bit of support and communication and then we can all move forward together.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Is that State-backed hubs and clusters where we are training in and educating the future of our industry?
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Does a tax break remain part of it?
Ms Elaine Geraghty:
May I answer that? The idea of longevity cannot be overstated. The tapering is the point. If I get a call from a US studio that wants to come to Ireland and it is not particularly fussy about what part, its first question concerns what the tax break is like. When it finds that it is good, its second question concerns what the crew's level and skill set are like. I can talk only about Troy Studios in Castletroy, Limerick, where we started to grow crew only five years ago. At its height, when we had a huge show in, we were actually feeding in costume design students from the local college, many of whom went on to work in the sector. That stopped because there was no visibility on what would happen down the line. There is a stop–start, so you need a long runway in the knowledge that it takes time. This industry is decades old and most of it is in Wicklow and Dublin. It has taken that time to build the crew, upskill and obtain the opportunity. If we do not allow time, it will simply not happen.
I have two more points. Most of the big producers are based in Dublin and Wicklow but they do not always want to film there. They want to get out. I have people working in Ardmore - not for me but as crew on productions - who bought property in their area with the dream of staying local and having a pipeline of projects in Troy Studios that would allow them to stay there. Wicklow is not a panacea; it is just that it has had a head start of about 50 years. Therefore, we have a bit of catching up to do. I hope that helps.
Ms Catherine Keane:
I am coming from an animation perspective. We are based in Kilkenny. Cartoon Saloon has been in existence for 25 years, so it is by no means an overnight success. It has been 25 years building a very viable animation business. We have set up a sister studio called Lighthouse Studios, based on the campus at St. Kieran's College in the heart of Kilkenny city, together with Mercury Filmworks, a Canadian animation company. In a way, we have set up our own hub. We have done so for several reasons but one is crew. When we attract crew to the regions, particularly Kilkenny, we want them to stay. Animation studios are a little different from live-action studios in that they are bricks-and-mortar operations. We pay rent and rates and have a very significant number of support staff who work in-house with us, be they in legal affairs, business affairs, accounts, HR or operations. We are growing all those skills all the time. When we attract top-level artists from all over Europe and the rest of the world to Kilkenny to work with Tomm Moore, Paul Young or Nora Twomey, we want them to stay. Sometimes they might go on to a project in Lighthouse Studios, if that appeals to them, and at other times they stay working in Cartoon Saloon. They build their lives in Kilkenny, which is a very attractive place to live outside Dublin and which is very accessible from the main cities.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I might come back to that point later.
Ms Catherine Keane:
On the question of how we feel we can benefit from a regional incentive, it is important that if an incentive is introduced, it be introduced on a five- or ten-year basis, as colleagues have mentioned. The longer, the better. Animation takes a long time to make and is quite expensive. Our feature film "WolfWalkers" took about seven years from development all the way through to delivery and release. That is a long time. If a regional development uplift incentive is in place at 5% for two to three years, that is a small amount of time for us. Where policy development is being considered, a long period - ten years at a minimum - is essential.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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I might move on as I have another question. We have gone over time. If the delegates want to contribute again on that later, they should please do so.
We had representatives of the Department before us and they talked about the idea of direct investment in studios and the capital side of things. I was talking specifically about west Cork. The delegates present might have heard me talk previously about a budding studio being developed in west Cork and its benefits. One of the challenges mentioned was that a skilled workforce does not exist in a place like west Cork, which I disputed. It was also said that there was no precedent for directly investing in studios, which might be the case. In this regard, I believe the departmental official referred to a situation in Portugal. I would like the view of the delegates on directly investing in infrastructure. The point I keep making is that the Department is wrong in that there are skills in places like west Cork. Ms Keane just mentioned that people want to live in Kilkenny. Maybe people who want to get into film and television want to get out of the cities and live in more regional areas. That is what I see happening in Cork, including west Cork, where we have set designers, set makers, location managers, makeup artists, writers and others right across the board. They want to live and work in their area and do not want to commute or go abroad. Could the delegates comment on that? I am continuously trying to make the point. I get the point on the tax incentives for productions and the creation of hubs, including education hubs, which would follow, but what about direct investment by the State in smaller studios for indie-type productions?
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of time and Mr. Hickey, Mr. McCabe and Mr. Duggan were all signalling. If they are succinct, we will probably have time for another round of questions.
Mr. James Hickey:
It is against EU state aid rules to provide a subsidy directly for construction or purchase, or any of the activities in a studio itself. Therefore, the important thing to support is production funding, which benefits the studios. As Ms Geraghty will bear testament to, it is not so much that the studio itself needs the investment but that it will get the private investment. There are opportunities through, for example-----
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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Is it not a chicken-and-egg scenario?
Mr. James Hickey:
It is. This is where we come back to the fact that production incentives focused on the regions will deliver production activity to the regions, which will then incentivise the development of studios. That is how it worked in Wicklow, for example. Originally, there was just the small Ardmore Studios but there is now Ashford Studios and others that are planned. Production activity is essential for the studios to be delivered in line with the production activity. However, as Ms Geraghty will also testify to, the difficulty is that, without production incentives, the studio itself has a problem. Therefore, production incentives are needed first so studios can operate as production hubs.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I call Mr. McCabe, who is to be followed by Mr. Duggan. We will have time for another round but I am conscious of others.
Christopher O'Sullivan (Cork South West, Fianna Fail)
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What was that again?
Mr. Ronan McCabe:
In recruiting people under the regional development uplift, you are restricted to recruiting among those who habitually reside within 45 km. I am referring to the Deputy's point on people being available. The radius needs to be expanded or just made countrywide. It is certainly possible for a studio in west Cork to have a cluster of people working in Sligo on its project. Ms Keane made a point on animation production involving quite a long process. It can take three years to finance a production and three to five years to make it. Any incentive has to be fit for purpose and reflect the realities of living in the regions.
Mr. Alan Duggan:
To be slightly left of field, it is not just about the box or space because it is also about the people. Key in this regard are the producers. It is often overlooked that it is the producers who bring in the funding and the activity to any region, be it Dublin, Wicklow or another. It is not that there needs to be de-focusing; multiple levers need to be pulled. However, the key lever in regional development concerns the need to invest in regional producers. A phrase I have used that irks many is that where a producer wakes up in the morning is really important because that is where he or she wants to work.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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We may have time for more. I call Deputy Griffin.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I am happy to contribute if no one wants to contribute further on the issue. Are we cutting anyone off?
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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No. It is the Deputy's time.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Vice Chair. We have a fantastic lineup here today. I thank all our guests for their time.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I thank our witnesses for being here. We have a fantastic line-up today and I thank everyone for their time. I was watching proceedings from my office earlier. I appreciate everyone taking the time to be here and thank them for all of the work they are doing, the employment they are supporting and the brilliant output they are producing. It is very important.
I am not being parochial here but I want to mention Kerry College and the content development for film and television course that started there in 2023. It is of national importance which is why I am mentioning it here today. It really sets a standard in terms of the type of education that we need to be rolling out regionally and the types of courses that we need to make available in all pockets of the country. It is my understanding that there are 14 graduate students from across the country participating in the course that is available in Kerry College in Tralee. I want to commend the entire team there including Mr. Owen O'Donnell, Mr. Con O'Sullivan, and Mr. John Herlihy as well as the director, writer and producer, Mr. Gerard Barrett, who is heavily involved in that course. I am interested in hearing the views of our guests as to whether this is the type of course that could be replicated elsewhere in the country. Is it something that we could see more of? Is there enough investment in that regard? It is my understanding that Mr. Maurice Sweeney, Chairman of the Screen Directors Guild of Ireland, is teaching on that course as well. Some really significant players are involved in the course and it is one that should set a template for others around the country. It is building on over 30 years of work by Kerry College and its predecessors in the areas of film and television. I invite our guests to give their views on that particular side of it. Could this be replicated elsewhere?
Ms Elaine Geraghty:
I thank the Deputy for his questions. I am chairing the skills steering group for the mid-west area, which is supported by Screen Ireland and that group comprises education members as well. The course the Deputy is talking about is one with which we are very familiar. When decisions are being made about what skills need to be supported and what courses exist, they are examined every single time and they are really valuable. A point relevant to why we are here today is that it would be great if a college or institute in Kerry could be the feeder school for a much wider region, so that it is not just Castletroy, Limerick and a 45 km radius. That is really where we are shooting ourselves in the foot. A course like that, which is really great, should be able to be a feeder school for a number of studios in a broader region. That could be considered whenever the next map or iteration is being drawn up. We think it is a great course.
Mr. Ronan McCabe:
It is worth mentioning that Animation Ireland runs the National Talent Academy for animation and would be familiar with all of the courses around the country. We reach out to the individual colleges by having animation fairs. We have held an animation fair in Athlone for a couple of years. We also had one up in Letterkenny. We bring the studios out to the regions as well, to try to give people opportunities. We did a skills gap report a couple of years ago and one of the findings was that people coming out of college were not industry-ready so we devised courses through the National Talent Academy to get people up to speed and make them industry-ready. Animation Dingle takes place in Kerry. It is a big animation event. This weekend Animation Ireland is running a conference in Galway called the Animation Ireland Meitheal. We are bringing international people from all over Europe, the States and the UK to Galway and we have reached out to local people in the area as well. We are trying to do it both ways.
Mr. Gar O'Brien-Collins:
I agree with the Deputy on the course. I am familiar with Mr. Gerard Barrett, in particular. He made a wonderful film a number of years ago called "Pilgrim Hill" which really showcased a part of Ireland that we do not see very often. That course and the students coming out of it are important. So too are the students in the north west coming out of Atlantic Technological University, ATU and the University of Galway. Like our colleagues here, Ardán also runs a National Talent Academy for film and television on behalf of Screen Ireland. There is no shortage of great people being trained up and coming out with skills. As Deputy O'Sullivan said, he would have disagreed with them about the crew. It is about what is there for them when they come out and sustaining it. We have spoken about what we called the regional drift cycle or feedback loop. People come out of college, they have plenty of skills but there is not enough work for them there so they move to Dublin and Wicklow. It is suddenly expensive to bring crew back because there is not enough crew there. Sometimes companies end up paying for a crew to come back to shoot in Kerry, Cork or Galway who started off there but had to move for work and were not able to live there and sustain it. It is about all of these people that we train through great courses like the one Deputy Griffin mentioned, the colleges and the National Talent Academy, having enough work, through production investment, so that they can stay. That would be anchored by local producers and we need to invest in them as well.
Ms Maggie Breathnach:
I would agree with that as well. There is an excellent course in Nemeton in An Rinn, in the Waterford Gaeltacht, that takes students on for one year but what is the longevity? Some of their programmes get selected to be broadcast on TG4, which is huge. Within a year, we can see their programmes, the proof of their labour and their year's work on TG4. I am based there so I try to take in as many as I can but if I do not have productions, I cannot hire. I know that the course in Kerry is great as well but it is about joined-up thinking and us all working together, feeding each other and ensuring that we get State aid to continue making programmes in order to keep those students in our regions.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Mr. O'Brien-Collins mentioned "Pilgrim Hill" and one of the things that stood out for me was the ability to bring that level of realism to screen on such a small budget. The budget for that movie, while I cannot remember the precise figure, was tiny in the overall scheme of things and to end up with that production was incredible. It just goes to show what can be done with a relatively small investment.
The great thing about the Kerry College course is that it proves that we can run a course of national and international standard anywhere in the country and that is quite groundbreaking. It is more than symbolic and is something that should be seen in the industry as a leader.
I will be more regional than parochial now and ask about Troy Studios. I will eventually get as far as Dublin, but I am working my way up to Limerick now. What is the current level of activity there at the moment? There was a lot of excitement a number of years ago about Troy Studios, its development and its opening. What is currently happening and what are the immediate plans?
Ms Elaine Geraghty:
The first three years were very busy, with almost 95% occupancy but there has only been about 5% occupancy in the past two years. I do not want to over-egg what everybody has said already but we need big, incoming international productions because we have a lot of space to fill. It is not that we do not welcome lots of productions. I would love to have two local productions, side by side. That would be absolutely great. If a big, international production is to make a decision not to go the more traditional areas of Dublin and Wicklow, it will ask what the tax break is like and the answer is that it is very good. It will ask if there was anything available for regional production and the answer is that there was but there is not any longer. It will ask what its costs will be if it does not go to a place where it knows it can access most of the crew. It is worth saying this again because that just adds costs to the bottom line, no matter what we say. Crews have developed but not enough, in terms of what that ultimate budget looks like. Equally, in some cases there are questions about getting away from Dublin and trying Limerick or Cork. That is a conversation but there is a certain element of risk in terms of the big urban areas. There are lots of factors that feed into decisions to go to a particular place but mostly it is pinpointed on what it is going to cost to do business there. I am not sure the Deputy was here earlier when I spoke about a small production that was in with us. The additional cost for it to be there and to film for two months was 8% on the bottom line. We try not to be negative about this. The first thing I talk to people about when I get the call is Troy. It is the first position. We have people working in Ardmore and they want to be there, and so on. We are doing our best but ultimately it is down to cost right now and the availability of experienced crew.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the reply. Obviously I have an interest in it because it is important for the region. We want to see it being successful. There is also an interest in it from the point of view of the Oireachtas because there was significant State investment in that enterprise, as I understand it. We can check the facts there but -----
Ms Elaine Geraghty:
Everybody wants it to work for the region. There is absolutely no question about that. To go back to the point that James Hickey made earlier, it is about the production cycle. What we want to do is provide a pipeline of opportunity. Obviously, we want production in and we want activity. What does that do? It creates employment but, equally important, it creates the opportunity to upskill new entrants.
Equally as important, it creates the opportunity to upskill new entrants. If we cannot provide production then all of those other things do not work. It is a combination of all of those things. We need to create a perfect storm. The vision for Troy Studios was outstanding. In ways it was before its time because everything needed to work. The regional uplift was so welcome but the fact that it was shortlived and tapered already created a doubt. By the way, huge multimillion euro productions make decisions really quickly on where to go. The members would be amazed. They could decide Troy Studios one day and then simply decide to move the production to Budapest. That happens regularly.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Is Ms Geraghty committed to the future of Troy Studios?
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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There is a rumour that the company is for sale.
Ms Elaine Geraghty:
No, it is not listed for sale at all. Naturally, if there is an empty space of 350,000 sq. ft. and a huge backlot I can understand why people are concerned. I did not write the cheque for Troy Studios but I can understand why people are concerned but there is a commitment. We all want production to go to Troy Studios. I spend a lot of my days and nights trying to make that happen. The commitment is a priority for us.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Is there a strategy in place to try to get it up to capacity usage?
Ms Elaine Geraghty:
The space is great. As our colleague who has left the meeting said, we know this crew in Cork and their skills and talents. However, it takes a lot more than that. It takes that and everything else. A huge effort is being made. The funding from Screen Ireland, even though it is interim, offers an opportunity, for example, for budgets of €1 million. That is helpful. The cap is also very helpful. It is just being ratified so we are in early days what that. All of these things help. All of us are good at selling Ireland. Believe me, Deputy, what we want is a big production that is actually a returning one, that comes and stays and repeats for two or three years.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Very good. Thanks for that. Regarding what has been happening in Donnybrook for the past 12 months, how has that impacted on the broader sector in terms of commissioning and the fall off in the licence fee?
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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An easy question to finish, Deputy.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Basil Fawlty's "Do not mention the war" and all that-----
Mr. Anthony Muldoon:
This is not necessarily on the commissioning point but the bottom line is that an unstable RTÉ that is going from one crisis to another impacts across the board. Organisations that cannot be sure of their budgets year on year find it hard to make creative decisions. Since last June, we have been consistently saying that, one, direct Exchequer funding is the only reasonable solution for RTÉ and two, it has to be multiannual to allow RTÉ to grow as an organisation.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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We are not going to discuss RTÉ at this session. This is specifically about supporting regional funding and there will be another opportunity. It is related to it.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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To be fair.
Mr. Paul Cummins:
Even before the crisis producers felt that RTÉ did not have resources or was not investing enough in drama and international co-productions. Compared to the BBC and ITV in Britain, ZDF in Germany and RAI in Italy, - we have worked with the latter two - RTÉ does not have the scale to invest in international co-productions. As a co-producer, the more we can bring to the table from Ireland, the more equity and the larger share of the work we will get. Obviously, section 481 is fantastic for that. We cannot always rely on Screen Ireland because it has other factors to take into account, particularly on the cultural aspect, and whether there is an Irish director or writer. Other countries can bring a package of tax credits and significant investment from a broadcaster, which we cannot do here.
I will go on to the question of TG4 and regional activity. To be honest, Telegael probably would not exist today if it was not for TG4 in the late nineties. At that stage, we were not looking at international co-productions. We were very much servicing the home market, which was very limited. TG4 gave us bread-and-butter business. It was not huge but we were able to survive on that. Eventually we realised that we would could not survive solely with the home market and we had to go on the international market as well. As a catalyst and springboard for companies like ours, TG4's support has been very important for other companies in the Gaeltacht and beyond. I think some 80% of what TG4 spends is in the regions. As I said earlier, it is very much underfunded. It gets about 50% of the funding that the Welsh-language broadcaster gets to deliver a similar schedule. I know the Dáil has approved a strategy for TG4 for 2023 to 2027. That includes an increase in the funding over five years to get to somewhere near the level of S4C. That certainly would impact in the regions.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious, Deputy Griffin, that we may have time to come back to the other questions. To Ms Honan who is joining us remotely, please signal if you want to come in.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I thank everyone for the work they are doing. I appreciate the answers today. Keep up the good work.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses and apologise for being late in to the meeting. I am going to be parochial as well. I am from the midlands, not from the south. We would not be famed for our television or film industries. However, we have two very successful young lads who I know, Patrick McGivney and Robert Higgins from Harp Media. They have made a fantastic name for themselves nationally and internationally with their work. The film "Lakelands" was made in and premiered in my neck of the woods in north Longford. They took a chance on doing it at the time. They did not have significant financial supports to do something like that in the midlands. Many of the grants in place at the time seemed to be biased towards certain other areas of the country. This made it very difficult for anyone to put on a production in the midlands area.
I know that a new scheme has been introduced recently that I cannot recall the name of. This scheme has changed things and opened up further opportunities. I ask the witnesses to expand on that scheme. I have a couple of questions. What knock-on effects has the situation at RTÉ had on the industry? During Covid the Backstage Theatre in Longford reimagined a lot of the things that were happening. It also introduced internships. Robert and Patrick came in and did that in the Backstage Theatre. Perhaps this could be expanded on around the country. It could bring students from schools in or it could work on a schools' programme to get more people interested in the industry. It would encourage people to want to get in to the industry. That follows on to another question. Deputy Griffin mentioned Kerry College. Are there sufficient course available in the various universities around the country to service the industry with qualified people?
Ms Maggie Breathnach:
On the RTÉ question, I am an independent producer and a lot of my work comes from TG4 and RTÉ. Yes, it puts a significant strain, going to bed every night wondering whether the State broadcaster will be funded going forward. I have projects in the pipeline for 2024 but do I have something for 2025? The short answer is "No". RTÉ is afraid to commit; we could have all the best ideas in the world but if we do not have a commitment that our State broadcaster is funded then everything we are talking about today can go up in smoke. That is the long and the short of it from where I am coming, in the regions, in rural Ireland, producing and directing programmes. Looking at Nemeton and all the students coming out of colleges, I was in that situation 25 years ago. If I thought that the State broadcaster and TG4 were in question I would have thought about what the future looked like for me. As soon as a decision can be made on this, the better for us all to move on. Sin a déarfainn, maidir le sin. I think there are plenty of incredible courses throughout the country. I just think that we need to talk together as companies, regions and institutions to ensure that we all have one mission. That is to come together and to enhance the creativity that is there and to ensure that employment happens within our own areas.
It is my first time sitting here in Teach Laighean and I am amazed by how all the members have their own independent rural agendas. It is lovely to hear because I came up flying the south-east flag. It is lovely to hear someone from the midlands and ó Chorcaigh because it shows that there is-----
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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The reason I ask is that Ms Breathnach mentioned Dublin and Wicklow and that the various of schemes under section 481 all seem to be based there. We are all for balanced regional developed as a Government. If we are making a significant investment and providing tax breaks, it has to benefit the whole country. It cannot just benefit a small number of counties.
Ms Moe Honan:
I will keep this short. I am staying a bit quiet because others have made many of the points I would wish to make. I do not want to waste time repeating them.
I wish to draw attention to the point about co-production. People have asked about the uncertainty around RTÉ. I am attending markets and trying to bring co-production partnerships together from around Europe and the world. Any certainty I can bring as a producer in the market counts for everything. Any uncertainty around legislation with respect to section 481, any uncertainty around my national broadcasters or any uncertainty around whether we may or may not be able to talk about a regional uplift or what it might look like disincentivises quality partners with whom I have spent years building up and nurturing relationships. I am based in Galway. I co-produce mainly feature films and I have created employment and sustained employment there. I have often mentored and trained people who have remained in the industry and now work in other companies as well. Certainty is the piece we need to think about as well. Enabling us to retain IP when we co-produce, which Mr. Cummins mentioned, means we have more work and that means we can create more jobs and certainty and allow people to stay in their regions.
Mr. Paul Cummins:
On the point about colleges and students, when we set up Telegael in 1988 in Galway, there was probably no industry in the country from an independent producer point of view. We soon realised that, first, we did not have any producers around us and, second, we did not have the talent. For these reasons, we worked with Údarás na Gaeltachta and RTÉ and organised some courses in the early 1990s. Most of the people who attended those courses are involved in the industry today in one form or another. Now we are working with the third level colleges in Limerick, Galway and Athlone because we have a demand for graduates based on our production. It is production that drives the demand for all of this. We are working with the colleges now to structure courses to service our needs and other needs in animation and other areas. They even include subtitling and audio description courses. We are working with the colleges on that. We have to drive the production on the ground. We have to incentivise that in some way or another to bring the work in. That will then create a demand for graduates who will have jobs to go to at that stage.
Mr. Ronan McCabe:
I was in Donnybrook last week for the launch of an animated shorts programme. I did something quite controversial in that I made some positive comments about RTÉ. From an animation point of view, RTÉ is quite supportive. It could always do better in respect of the money it puts in, and we say that to it all the time. Uncertainty at RTÉ is not good for our industry. When we take projects to market, having the support of the public service media in your own country unlocks other funding abroad. Having that imprimatur really helps your project. A stable RTÉ is good for the animation sector. It is a point worth making.
Mr. Alan Duggan:
Regarding bringing people through from grassroots and up, there are the ETBs, the colleges, Skillnets and six National Talent Academies. There is considerable effort being put into developing trained crew at all levels and carrying them through their career. Our whole reason for being is to help people traverse that. Ms Breathnach, Ms Keane, Mr. Cummins and Ms Honan are the bulkhead. They are the regional producers, who provide the opportunity. As a quick example, with the National Talent Academy for Film & TV, shadowing opportunities for people who are approaching the top of their game is the best opportunity because they are learning on the job. Most of the shadowing opportunities we have are in Dublin and Wicklow because that is where the production activity is.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Last summer, I was in Carlingford for a few days and I went up to Belfast to the W5 centre in the Odyssey Arena with my three young kids. The kids could make a small news film and they could do an animation. It was hands-on and available for kids to do. They could create their own one-minute animated video, and edit and produce their own news programme. There was a news studio set there for the kids to do directing, filming, camera and the whole lot. Is there anything like that here? There is not, to my knowledge, anything down here that gives kids the opportunity to have a go.
Mr. Alan Duggan:
There are a number of small centres but I cannot think of a national one. However, one thing that works well, which Mr. McCabe talked about earlier, is the roadshows the academies do. Those are very much embedded in the local colleges and below. I know the crew academies – I cannot speak on their behalf – and animation do focus on that early start.
For our part, one of the things we do is manage the UNESCO City of Film in Galway. That is very much geared towards grassroots and communities that do not necessarily associate with industry. It is first-level access for people. There is significant activity. It is probably just bubbling underneath.
Ms Catherine Keane:
In Kilkenny there is the Young Irish Filmmakers. I think that is one of the initiatives that was mentioned. For example, one of our directors, Tomm Moore, started there. They created sort of an initial home for Cartoon Saloon and, from that, the company grew. Getting kids interested early is obviously important. We often host open days or workshops for children because, being an animation studio, we can do that. We often have anxious parents coming along saying that all their son or daughter wants to do is draw and be an animator. If someone from Kilkenny or the region wants to do that, they can have a viable and sustainable career in Kilkenny if they are that type of artist. Across the broad skill sets that we take into the company, there are those opportunities. By further investing in production companies in the region, we can continue to do that and grow that aspect of our work.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I know I am going over time but I have one final question. If the witnesses had one ask, what do we need to change in government to make sure that we get balanced regional development?
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Why do colleagues always leave the big questions to the very end?
Mr. James Hickey:
The short answer is, first, we need some form of automatic subsidy to replace the section 481 regional uplift. We will be told by Screen Ireland and others that an automatic subsidy is the best sales pitch in places around the world to bring in inward production. Unfortunately, we have not come up with a clear way of doing that yet. That is why Screen Producers Ireland is recommending that we intensively look at how to do that. An automatic subsidy is something we intensively need to do. In the short term, we believe the best solution would be for Screen Ireland’s funding to be significantly increased in budget 2025 so that it can invest in regional production activities.
That would be a very strong outcome.
On Troy Studios, one last point that is worth making is that when "Nightflyers" first came, which was the first production to take place in Troy Studios, there was no regional uplift but Screen Ireland did contribute a very large amount of money to incentivise "Nightflyers" to come to Troy Studios in the first place. In a sense we are back to square one here. If, in the short term, we could give Screen Ireland a significant increase in its funding it could then target production projects to be brought in while we work out how to put in place an automatic subsidy which focuses on the regions outside Dublin-Wicklow where, as the Senator rightly says, the development needs to be done.
Incidentally, if I may congratulate the team on "Lakelands". It was a tremendous production. It is an extraordinarily good film. Screen Ireland came in with completion funding in the end. It is worth mentioning that the two actors in "Lakelands", Éanna Hardwicke and Danielle Galligan, are both graduates of the Lir Academy, which is one of the great acting academies operating in Ireland now.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We will leave on that positive note. We will have time to come back. I am conscious that I am the last member of the committee who will be asking questions but as Deputy Boyd Barrett is here, I will allow him to ask questions on the support for regional content creation.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I thank the Chair. I appreciate it as unfortunately, I am not a member of the committee. I thank everyone for their contributions. I did not hear everybody but I got the general gist and I have read through bits of the submissions.
One word that has been repeated here is “certainty” and the need for certainty. I would certainly appreciate that sentiment. Something that came across very strongly at the film industry stakeholder forum was that need for certainty. I am concerned - some of those here may be familiar with my concerns - that the whole industry from just about top to bottom is characterised by uncertainty and a lack of security about what is going to happen in the future, particularly for those who are going to work in it. I would say that the predominant characteristic faced by everybody from performers to crew is the complete lack of certainty. I am worried that some in the sector make a virtue of a necessity when it comes to uncertainty and I believe that needs to change. I would like to see a lot more money going into film. I think we are underspending in arts and we are generally way below the European average. The Government has a big responsibility to provide that certainty, whether it is in RTÉ, the film industry or a whole range of other areas of cultural and artistic pursuit. If we are going to convince anyone to do that, certainty must be provided as a quid pro quo. Ms Geraghty and Mr. Hickey will know that I do not think that is what is happening with some of the producers. I would like to ask straight whether they are up for the quid pro quo on this.
I heard Ms Breathnach – I totally agreed with her - talking about people getting trained, coming out of college and then having a viable career, but what does that mean? To my mind, having a viable career would mean that if someone goes into film production - the State is putting quite a lot of money into it - he or she will have some security from production to production that he or she will be employed and have rights to be re-employed. However, some parts of the film industry - I have to be honest and say I am thinking of SPI in particular - seem to make a virtue of trying to deny people those accumulated rights of service. The animation industry does not seem to do that. People seem to have jobs in the animation industry. People who get section 481 give them a certain certainty. Other film producers go in and out, day in, day out to the Workplace Relations Commission and say “I am not your employer".
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I do not want to interrupt but I am conscious that the subject of this session is around support for regional content creation.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Absolutely. My point is that if we are going to have certainty across the board, there must be balance across the whole industry.
I am very interested in what Ms Honan said about retaining the intellectual property. I would like her to elaborate on that. I am not quite sure what she means. I am particularly interested in it because I know the actors and performers have been asking about their intellectual property rights. Ms Honan can probably elaborate on this but it seems that a lot of the time, the producers here or international co-producers coming in are insisting that people sign away their intellectual property rights and therefore the revenues and royalties do not come back here. Is that what she means? I would be interested to know. I think the actors and performers are right about that. If the State is going to put a lot of money in, the value of the intellectual property and the downstream revenues should flow back to people here.
My last point is very pertinent to the regional stuff and the question of providing certainty. While of course we will need to have international co-productions and obviously there is value in that, do people think that if the balance is heavily in favour of international productions, which may or may not come even with the best situation in the world, we are vulnerable to things going pear-shaped? Economists are saying that our dependence on FDI makes us very vulnerable. Therefore, it seems to me that we have to ramp up domestic production and make it viable. We need to cultivate our domestic industry, stories, culture and all that kind of stuff which I do not think we do enough of. We are too dependent on the foreign stuff. In a way, there is a kind of connection between that and giving people greater security in their jobs, to which there seems to be resistance in some quarters. I would like some responses on that. I want to see the thing thrive and to see certainty, but it has to be for workers and it has to be across the board. I wonder if the overdependence on big international co-productions is ultimately undermining our ability to develop that sort of sustainable domestic film industry.
Mr. Anthony Muldoon:
I have been working with SPI for about six and a half years. Obviously I have watched the Deputy’s contributions over those years with keen interest. One of the things that is most clear from those contributions is the Deputy’s support for the arts and culture sector in Ireland and his support for the film and TV sector. As he always says, he believes in increasing investment, as do we. So we agree in that regard. We also agree on the need for increased domestic production. One of the statistics that was mentioned earlier on section 481 is the 75%:25% split, whereby 75% of the funding is incoming and 25% is indigenous. I think the Deputy is right. We should definitely be looking to increase the ratio of indigenous to incoming production because that will provide additional jobs and projects for people to work on throughout a 12-month period.
Again, on intellectual property, I completely agree. The Deputy is absolutely right. When it comes to buy-out contracts, which the Deputy has spoken about at the committee in the past, producers are subject to buy-out contracts on incoming productions. One way one can scale up as a producer is to own one’s own intellectual property. Ireland is very strong on that too, around merchandising and so on. When someone develops a domestic production from the start, they will have a far greater right to intellectual property as a producer and perhaps others along the line. I completely agree on that. That is why we support increased funding for Screen Ireland and why we look to increase funding from RTÉ and others.
On the piece around sharing of IP with creative talent, I know the committee has spoken in the past about the copyright directive with the wider creative talent. It will be very glad to know that over the past year, through a Screen Ireland funded mediation process, SPI along with Animation Ireland and the writers, directors, screen composers and actors have sat around a table trying to figure out how best to implement the copyright directive in Ireland. Obviously, the directive was introduced in 2021 and is all about balancing rights. We are very pleased to say that in the next seven to ten days that SPI and AI are going to share with the writers, directors, composers and actors a set of interim guidelines. That is a set of guidelines that would set out how best to share in profit pools and other measures from the directive until such a time as it is legally allowed for SPI, for example, to enter into a collective agreement with the writers or directors.
As the committee knows and has mentioned before, with Irish Equity there was a cinema agreement that fell two and a half years ago. I am very pleased to say that we delivered a revised cinema agreement to Equity two weeks ago. We are now waiting for it to come back to us in order that we can start negotiation on that agreement. When that is done we will have three separate agreements with Equity. There will be docudrama, TV drama and a cinema agreement, all of which will contain profit pools as per the contract. On all those things we agree. I know the Deputy wanted Ms Honan to come in on IP.
Ms Moe Honan:
I normally co-develop and co-produce intellectual property. My point about that was that if I cannot have reliable structures around funding and cannot sell that when trying to attract co-financing and co-creating partners in Europe, and do not have the certainty of owning the rights as well, I have no framework to work. It creates an uncertainty on behalf of others to look at me as an Irish co-producer. Where I can have solid funding, I can try to retain more of the rights on the IP for the company and, therefore, I can create a larger worker split and give employment to more people. If the project becomes so successful that there are some revenues coming back into my company, I can reinvest in employment and the development of a future project. It is the core of co-producing as opposed to looking at other models of work which are very much a strong part of our ecosystem, which is the incoming and service. They are all important. I was speaking to that piece, which is a co-production model.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Just one question was not answered though. There are things we agree on, but what about the things we do not agree on? If the witnesses are rightly asking for certainty, why are members of SPI so unwilling to give that certainty to their crew? To put it bluntly, why do they not want to give the same certainty that they are looking for from Government funding to their crew in terms of recognising their service to the industry?
Mr. Anthony Muldoon:
Ultimately I do not accept what the Deputy is saying around that. What I would say, and it is something that the Deputy has disagreed with in the past, is that the sector is project by project. That is its nature. I know Ms Keane has mentioned that animation projects can go on for seven years. A live action project will not go on for seven years.
Ms Maggie Breathnach:
A documentary will not go on for seven years. A factual series commissioned by RTÉ is contract by contract. They will tell the creators they have it for this year. How can I tell a freelancer I have them next year when I am not guaranteed by the State broadcaster that I have the project for next year? I would be telling lies to my employee or my freelancer as I cannot guarantee it. I hear the Deputy. I would love to be in the position he is talking about and I would love to know that in An Rinn, I could keep 15 staff or 20 staff, whatever it is, on an ongoing basis. However, is that unfair to the next producer in County Longford or somewhere else who comes up with a better idea than me next year and perhaps a more economic way of doing it? Where does the industry then grow?
I hear the Deputy and I would love to be in a position to do that. Maybe film is slightly different. I am coming from a factual and arts-driven project-by-project viewpoint, which is what I work it. Being honest, I hear the Deputy. It is great and I want to be there, but if I cannot get guarantee of a programme from a State broadcaster that I will have it next year how can I give a guarantee to a freelancer that they are going to work next year? How can I give that guarantee when I do not have it myself?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I would only say, and I am sure the Chair will indulge me, that this is chicken and egg stuff. We are not going to progress unless we get over this chicken and egg. First, state aid is dependent on a permanent pool of people. Yes, it is project to project, but let us be honest; the producer companies are there all the time. Some may go in and out but they are there all the time. They should have an obligation. They cannot guarantee work all the time, that is for sure. If there is a steady flow of money - that is what the witnesses are looking for both regionally and nationally - there should also be a steady commitment to the people working in the industry rather than simply saying it is a pop-up shop. We are being told at the moment that it is a pop-up shop. There is no certainty for the employees of a pop-up shop.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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We need to move on. It now falls to me. We may have time for other questions. Our objective here and I think everybody's objective is, if I can use the chicken and egg analogy, to create a bigger chicken that is producing more golden eggs. We have been lucky. We have certainly seen the Irish content creation industry continue to grow and go from strength to strength. There is a lot more that we can look at doing and it comes back to this question around what are the policy decisions that we can make to support the general development of the industry, but obviously our specific concerns are around regional development and how can we support it right throughout the country.
Ms Geraghty touched on the international projects and the big projects. When going out to pitch and looking for international co-production, who are our competitors and what is it that we need to compete with in Ireland? What message do we need to be sending?
Ms Elaine Geraghty:
When someone looks at Ireland to locate, they are clearly thinking of Ireland, the UK and Europe. They are the competitors. May I give a positive story? We have a production right now in Ardmore that was considering Australia. However, its producer, who was on a previous show in Ireland and had such a good experience, persuaded the American studios to consider Ireland. They did so, and they are here. They have had a wonderful experience and are thinking about bringing us repeat business. That is just an anecdote but I would like to be positive. As regards crew who are working, that is crew who have had back-to-back jobs for almost two years. I look out my window every day and see them. That is really great.
The first question is around what is the tax break; that is always the first question. We need to look to what is happening everywhere competitively. The new incentive in the UK for those mid-sized projects means that Belfast and the UK are serious contenders for that level but also for bigger projects.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The tax credit here is currently at 32% and we had the regional uplift. We know the issues that are there. Would it make more sense as a simple move to increase that tax credit?
Ms Elaine Geraghty:
"Yes" is the short answer. Mr. Muldoon gave you some numbers about bringing it up to 40% and what it would cost the Exchequer to do that. That should be seriously considered in this budget. Immediately, that changes the game. Equally, we compete on tax breaks, location, crew and crew levels. Then it is experience about where they want to be. There are other factors that cannot be controlled, but what are the controllables? They are the tax break, the crew, the skill levels and the cost to do business in the location in question.
We got out of the blocks a little bit earlier this year, in January. The UK was slower but it has ramped completely up right now. The competitors are the UK and places like Prague, as well as Budapest in particular, which is thriving. It is not that we always have to follow what everybody is doing but we need to be aware of what the competitive issues are. They are the conversations I am having.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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A lot of that is obviously on the international side. Mr. Hickey raised the issue of incentivising Screen Ireland to look at specifically investing in regional productions as well. Obviously he had another hat in a previous life.
Would that suggest looking at requiring Screen Ireland to ring-fence funding to support regional production or how does Mr. Hickey think that could be done?
Mr. James Hickey:
If Screen Ireland was given additional funding on a regional basis, it would seriously consider ring-fencing it, particularly when bringing in projects into the regions. While we are mentioning competition, this island already has a strongly performing regional screen development agency, namely, Northern Ireland Screen. Northern Ireland Screen is competing to try to bring projects into Northern Ireland. The only way it is able to compete is not by having an additional tax incentive uplift but instead by providing investment to large inward production projects that come to the studios in Belfast. In a sense, there is a regional funding agency that funds, on a discretionary basis, projects coming into the region. Obviously, Northern Ireland struggles to compete with the rest of the UK, which has a fabulous level of infrastructure, particularly around the London area. To get projects in the UK to go to Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland Screen has provide significant levels of funding to projects that are brought into the studios in Belfast. It is worth looking at that model and saying how, for example, we could replicate that in the Republic. One way in which we could do that is through significant additional funding for Screen Ireland, which is dedicated to the ways in which Northern Ireland Screen funds its projects. That is one suggestion. Screen Ireland will say that an automatic incentive is always a better sales pitch and I am sure my colleagues would all agree with that. However, since we are struggling to come up with a version of that now, I would urge as an interim urgent measure that additional funding be given to Screen Ireland in order that it could do what Northern Ireland Screen does in the short term. If we could get that much in place for next year's budget, that would be extraordinarily helpful. The one thing to say about creating is that the industry will thrive and provide greater certainty if there are greater levels of production activity going on. While we are very successful in Dublin and Wicklow, there are still challenges in terms of competing with the rest of the world and Ms Geraghty has just outlined particular challenges that are coming from the UK now. The best way to achieve certainty in the industry in Ireland for both producers and all the cast and crew working in them is in making sure the incentives are competing successfully with what is available out there in the rest of the world.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Let us also talk about capacity, which was something that was discussed and we might touch on issues around studio space and crews and so on and obviously, we need to have the flow of training. I get that certainty is part of that. Apart from specific tax and other investment measures coming on the part of Screen Ireland, have we the capacity to cope here in Ireland?
Ms Elaine Geraghty:
I think of the crew level as the biggest opportunity. I know by sitting on the steering groups of the skills academies what we have on our doorstep. We have great courses in place. What we need is to give the opportunity for shadowing, which would be huge. We have generations of fantastic crew and we have a whole cohort of people ready to come in. There is a fantastic scheme called passport to production that has been incredibly successful. Netflix comes in and it does its own training. We are waiting to do it, that is the point.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I might specifically ask about animation. I have got to say that Mr. Muldoon referred to Animation Ireland as AI and I have been used to dealing with AI, the technology kind and the agricultural kind. We now have a third form of AI, but specific to animation.
Mr. Ronan McCabe:
No, nobody ever accused us of being agricultural before. In terms of the animation sector, we did have a few issues with crew, but we stepped in with the National Talent Academy for Animation. Again, I mentioned the skills-gap report that we did a couple of years ago. There is talent coming on stream.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Can that be done regionally? I ask because I am very interested, obviously, in terms of what Ms Keane was talking about regarding Kilkenny and building that hub.
Ms Catherine Keane:
We work a lot with the colleges locally in our region and one of our former senior crew has now gone to lecture in Athlone in an animation course. There is a piece of work there around the colleges and reaching out to them to inform them about the skills we need in order that potential crew that are coming into us or interns or trainees are coming into us and learning on the job and getting themselves up to a point where they are employable. We also recruit on a European and a global basis. From an EDI perspective, that is very important and it is definitely in Kilkenny. When you come to Kilkenny, you can feel that. Certainly, it is a vibrant and diverse place to work in Cartoon Saloon but Kilkenny has benefited from that culturally as well. We have crew from all over Europe and they come and they set up their lives and they stay. We need to do more for the talent that is in and coming out of colleges. We have been working with the colleges and we have been bringing in and developing talent and getting them to stay and that is very important.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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If we are looking at regional development, the development of that ecosystem locally is critically important and it is felt in Kilkenny and certainly in Galway also. As people will know, I have a particular interest in north Wexford and with the development of Tara Studios that is coming down the line. As we have been looking at the national, could I ask about the support that would be expected of local authorities to be able to facilitate that?
Mr. Ronan McCabe:
I would like to mention that Animation Ireland established an education and industry sub-committee, in which Animation Ireland with animation producers and the colleges sit down on a regular basis, every couple of months. We have identified the issues related to getting people into the industry. One of the first things we are working on is placements. We have now co-ordinated placements in the industry in order that all the colleges are not coming out at the same time looking for industry placements. We are going to look at all the various other issues over the next few years but we are talking and problem-solving.
Ms Moe Honan:
I just wanted to say what Mr. McCabe has said. There is a lot going on in that space with the studios and animation. I wanted to add, because it has not come up yet, that in the context of regional supports, regional development and thinking about it in a wider geographical map, in animation in particular a lot of people since Covid are also working from home and in hybrid situations. They may be coming into companies in a region or going into a hub but also are working from home. As the companies have invested and set their employees up that way, they can be spread quite widely around Ireland, potentially even more so. This supports another strand of the ways in which people want a work-life balance and allows them to remain where they come from.
Ms Catherine Keane:
Can I just add a point on the local authorities the Chair mentioned? I can only talk about Kilkenny but Kilkenny County Council, for example, we view as a partner with Cartoon Saloon. We work with them very closely in relation to outreach initiatives generally across the city. In Kilkenny, Cartoon Saloon murals can be seen from when we launched "Wolfwalkers". The council was very supportive. There is an interesting piece there to be looked at on how other local authorities can support different studios that are in the region or are trying to set up in the region. Kilkenny is quite an interesting model in that regard.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I will come back to Ms Keane and Mr. McCabe because I am conscious that Mr. Duggan, Mr. Muldoon, Mr. Cummins and other colleagues might want to come in on a final question.
Mr. Alan Duggan:
Regarding local authorities, because we manage the UNESCO designation for city and county in Galway, they are massively supportive of grass-roots film-making. In the game space, we have had an incredible support from them over the years at a grass-roots level, I could not speak highly enough of them. On a regional basis, the WRAP fund would not exist without the local authorities from Donegal to Clare, as well as Údarás na Gaeltachta.
They provide the operational funding for us to manage the WRAP fund in collaboration with the WDC. Without them, the incentive that brought "North Sea Connection", "Obituary", "Four Letters of Love" and a myriad of projects into the region probably would not have come otherwise. Without the local authorities, it just would not have happened. I have one other point. The one thing that we want is a really hard question because there are so many things involved. If I were to pinpoint one thing, it would be regional bias in our supports. Give the funding and supports regionally and make sure it is delivered regionally. That is probably the key.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I know people, such as Mr. Muldoon and Mr. Cummins, wish to come in.
Mr. Anthony Muldoon:
If we are talking about crew capacity, one of the really interesting things that has happened in the last number of years is sustainability crew has become a really prominent part of the production process. That was not there five years ago. That introduced a whole new layer into the production process and allowed people to join crew who were not crew before. We are now one of the leaders in cinema production in Ireland because of that. In terms of how production processes change, the next five to ten years could have more opportunities for people to come in to crew who may not have had the opportunity five years ago.
Mr. Paul Cummins:
There are a couple of things here. There is Ireland's position vis-à-vis the international market. For example, in the UK, there is now a tax credit of up to 40% on budgets up to £15 million. We suggest that the Irish tax credit be increased to 40% on budgets up to €20 million, which is slightly more but would give us a competitive edge, at least. We suggest that applies to the whole country, if necessary, because we have this regional aid map problem. The other point is on how we support regional producers because they are ultimately people rooted in their regions. It is in our interest to bring the projects in. Everyone then benefits from that. It is support for regional producers. I somewhat disagree with Mr. Hickey on his suggestion that Screen Ireland has a fund. That, by definition, would be discretionary and brings uncertainty to producers in the regions. It could come down to whether someone likes a script, the director, the writer or whatever. That would cause delay and uncertainty. I disagree with Mr. Hickey a little bit on that. The tax credit has the benefit of certainty, provided one complies with all the conditions.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their time, their testimonies and the clear asks that were articulated here. As a committee member, I formally propose, perhaps through the assistance of the secretariat, that we could create a summary of those asks, particularly those that are targeted at the forthcoming budget, and write with a summary of those specific asks, in bullet points, to the Ministers for media, Finance and public expenditure and reform. It would be beneficial. While it is great to discuss these things, ultimately these are the things that need to be asked in a hard and forthright way of those who will be making these decisions. I am sure the witnesses would have the full support of the committee for those asks.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.
Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I formally second and agree with Deputy Griffin. It is great to see an entire industry in favour of bringing it out and down the country and giving us all that opportunity. It is a big country. We have a lot of beautiful places around the country. I am biased, as I am from the midlands. I want to make sure everyone sees what we have to offer. We have good people in industries and the witnesses have highlighted that. As it happens, I know the two lads personally and I wish them well. The national enterprise awards are on in the Mansion House tomorrow night and they are representing County Longford there. I hope they are successful. They are successful by getting there and I hope they are successful on the night. I know there is a bright future ahead for them. I would love to see that they would be able to stay based in the midlands and produce quality productions, as they have been doing from their home base.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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As someone who grew up listening to great stories about the production of "Ryan's Daughter". Fifty-five years ago, my father drove on that production and worked during the summer of 1969, to borrow the words of Bryan Adams. I am not sure whether it was 1968 or 1969. The point I am trying to make is that the actual financial impact in our little locality on the Dingle Peninsula was incredible. We are 25 miles east of Dingle. Most, albeit not all, of the filming took place west of Dingle, some of it around our own locality of Keel, Castlemaine, and Killarney National Park. It was incredible how broadly that financial impact was felt. The week's wages from that production at the time were like nothing that was being paid locally. To emphasise, to this day, the financial impact that productions can have in localities and through people working in the sector is enormous. There is a responsibility on all of us to protect those incomes and livelihoods.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Now that Deputy Griffin is retiring, were there to be a remake or a sequel, he could star in it.
Brendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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"Ryan's Granddaughter".
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious that Mr. McCabe and Ms Geraghty want to comment.
Ms Elaine Geraghty:
To come back to the point on "Ryan's Daughter", I spent my summer there because my dad worked on that. Believe it or not, we all survived the film industry in our house. I have two brothers working in it and they can actually get mortgages. We have come a long way. Ventry is a very special place and I remember that. Here we are today, trying to make sure that we get out of Dublin and Wicklow and do that again. That was all.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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This remake or sequel could-----
Mr. Ronan McCabe:
I have one more point. Although I am a Dub, I can do rural and parochial because my wife is from Leitrim, I get it. I wanted to mention to Deputy Griffin that there is a Munster animation forum, as he was asking about Munster. There is a Munster animation forum that pulls all the interested parties in the Munster region together and they are addressing the level of production in the Munster area. That is worth noting. I get to Leitrim through Longford all the time.
Mr. Alan Duggan:
I do not have a "Ryan's Daughter" story, but what I can attest to is that through WRAP, we see first-hand the same impact happening in the regions today. Every time there is a production, it has a large footprint outside of the spend on the production. That is not to be underestimated.
Mr. Gar O'Brien-Collins:
To add, there are productions that we have funded or helped to fund through WRAP that have been directly involved with, not just the lifting employment in areas and regions, but there was one project in Donegal during the time of Covid-19 and there are two or three businesses that would not be there if it was not for that investment, which allowed a production to come there.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I do need to wrap it up very soon.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I can see what picture will be on the front of our report now.
Ms Maggie Breathnach:
Níl mórán eile le rá agam ach go raibh míle maith ag an gcoiste. I thank everyone very much. I am going home with a spring in my step, hopefully being able to tell the community of Port Láirge, Cork and Kerry that we will have a serious regional uplift. Going back to the stories, when "Róise & Frank" was filmed locally in An Rinn in recent years, there was excitement locally. From the chip van driver to everyone, everyone was involved and excited. They actually looked at me and said I did something similar. What is left when we leave? What is left when the circus leaves town? No matter what we do as filmmakers and animators, it is what we leave behind - what legacy we leave in that community, however big or small - that is important. We do not just use the community for their scenes and goodwill because they are excited to have a Hollywood film in town, or whatever. It is what we leave behind. When I did "Gradam Ceoil" in Belfast, we went across the Border for the first time with a music series. What I left behind and fought with the county councils and everyone over was a "Gradam Ceoil" bursary. Long after the circus left town, there are children who are still getting money for the next four or five years to learn to play music.
That is what we have to do. Whether it is in Longford or Leitrim, we need to leave a legacy and ensure that our regions and our nations are looked after. We will forge onwards and upwards. I am genuinely delighted to see the enthusiasm from Teach Laighean today for our regions.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I thank everybody. This was a positive and informative session for all of us in that we learned something. There is a lot of support within this committee and even in terms of us being able to communicate to the Ministers, Deputies Catherine Martin and Michael McGrath. It is about coming up with practical solutions. To Deputy Griffin's suggestion around practical measures, dare I say that there are others in here who may not have the same level of cultural appreciation and their question will just be, "What is the cost, what is the benefit?" Today was a very useful session, even to see the agreement with Deputy Boyd Barrett, which was quite-----
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Apologies, I did not see Ms Honan was indicating.
Malcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I agree. We appreciate that. This committee also has responsibility for tourism and we talk about the impact of cultural tourism. What everyone does here is really important. Our committee wants to help and to work with the witnesses to achieve that. I thank everybody for their time today. Our guests should feel free to correspond and keep us under pressure. We will now suspend briefly to allow our witnesses to withdraw as we have to resume in private session for a small number of housekeeping matters.