Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 11 July 2023
Public Accounts Committee
RTÉ Commercial Arrangements: Mr. Ryan Tubridy and Mr. Noel Kelly
10:30 am
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome everyone and remind all those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are switched off or in silent mode. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses of the Oireachtas with regard to references that witnesses can make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present, or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse that privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such directions.
Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such as way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name or reputation of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such directions.
Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to this committee. Today we will engage with Mr. Ryan Tubridy and Mr. Noel Kelly. Mr. Tubridy and Mr. Kelly have been advised of the areas on which the committee will focus. They are payments to presenters and personnel in RTÉ, specifically from 2017 to date; details of Mr. Ryan Tubridy's contractual relationship with RTÉ including related payments and exit fees; the process relating to the tripartite agreement of 2020 including its negotiations and sign off; the content of that tripartite agreement and issue of its being underwritten by RTÉ; the raising of associated invoices and related payments; the details of the invoices and who was aware of same; any instructions given by Mr. Ryan Tubridy to Mr. Noel Kelly and any further discussions in that regard before finalising the agreement; the call on 7 May 2020 and the letter that followed from Ms Dee Forbes to Mr. Ryan Turbridy; and any matters arising from material provided to the committee in advance of the meeting or materials provided by RTÉ to the committee.
I thank the witnesses for appearing. We did not have to compel them and I welcome the fact they attended voluntarily before this committee to assist in our examinations. Before I ask Mr. Tubridy for his opening statement, I must mention that the documents have come late. We were promised them yesterday morning. We did not receive them. Some members received them as they were travelling here this morning and only had sight of them in the past hour. I must also set out the position of the witnesses' legal adviser. I remind witnesses that the attendance of the legal adviser is with the agreement of the committee. He is not entitled to contribute, to disrupt the meeting or interfere with the conduct of the meeting in any way. I now call Mr. Tubridy to give his opening statement.
Mr. Ryan Tubridy:
I thank the committee for acceding to my request to come before it today. We felt it was really important to be here. I have always believed in the importance of public service. I was brought up that way, and I have great respect for the Oireachtas as an institution. I have come here, as members know, voluntarily, because I believe in the work the committee is doing. I do not say that in any other way than that I want to assist in every way I can. I appreciate there will be many questions so I will try to keep my opening statement as short as possible. I begin by clearly and unambiguously at the very outset this morning stating that I am truly sorry for all of this and for any part which I have played, be it consciously or unconsciously, and anything that has contributed to the debacle we are dealing with today.
I apologise to the committee that it has had to take the time to deal with this matter, to my colleagues in RTÉ and to my listeners.
Given the events of the past three weeks, there is a lot I wish and need to say, so I ask the committee please to bear with me. My aim is to help correct and clarify some very serious matters and I will be relying on my agent, Noel Kelly, to go through the figures and provide greater detail. I would like everybody here today to understand that the figures and statements presented by RTÉ over the past few weeks in respect of my remuneration have created a fog of confusion over what I was paid, when I was paid, what I knew and when I knew it. Full transparency and disclosure on RTE's part, I am sorry to say, would simply have avoided much of this. I am here to do one thing and one thing only, namely, to set the record straight and call out some untruths. There are seven material untruths I would like to address.
The first is the claim I did not take a pay cut from RTE in 2020. This is not true. I took a 20% pay cut from RTE in my 2020 to 2025 contract. It is as simple as that. I am obliged to present 205 radio shows and 38, as it was then, live two-hour episodes of "The Late Late Show" under this contract. I am an independent contractor. I get no pension or entitlements from RTE – that is the nature of it. Under the terms of my contract, I am allowed to do additional work outside of RTE – that is also the nature of it. I stress there is nothing morally, ethically or legally wrong with me or any independent contractor doing additional work for another client outside of RTE. To be clear, I took a pay cut from RTE of 20% in 2020 for each of the five years of my contract, at a cost to me of €525,000 over the length of that contract.
The second untruth is the suggestion my decision to retire from "The Late Late Show" was prompted by this whole debacle. This is not remotely true. I was not aware of any of this fiasco when I decided to retire from "The Late Late Show". I made my initial decision to leave "The Late Late Show" pretty much a year ago. It was very personal and was made in the heart and the soul. Around this time, I mentioned it to those closest to me, my family, my agent and a few others. They were very surprised, asking why I would leave such a show. I explained to them, and eventually brought them round to my way of thinking, that, among other things, I had left a lot of myself on the studio floor after Covid. I was burned out and exhausted. A lot of people in this country, as we know, are burned out and exhausted after Covid, having done much more important jobs than I was doing, but that is where I was coming from. I turned it over in my mind over a few months but by the time I got to January, I had made my decision and knew it was time to go. To make it abundantly clear, there is zero connection between my departure and this very raw situation of recent weeks. I informed management on 13 March of this year. I first became aware of this Grant Thornton review in May, some two months later, and even then had no inkling of the bombshell that was to come when RTÉ released its statement of 22 June.
The third untruth is that I was covertly or secretly overpaid by RTE. This is not true. I was not overpaid by RTE at any point. I fully accept I am very well paid - I understand that - but I was paid fully in accordance with my contract, which my agent negotiated openly, honestly and in good faith. There are no overpayments. There are RTE's under-declarations, on which we challenged them in 2020, and there are, indeed, RTE's over-declarations of what they actually paid me in 2020 and 2021. This has caused justifiable anger among my colleagues. I understand that, and we are going to deal with all that over the next six hours, or as long as it takes. The upshot of RTE's inaccurate declarations is an impression that I have been less than honest. This is not the case.
The fourth untruth is that I was aware RTE was trying to conceal payments to me. This is not true. I was not aware RTE was concealing payments to me. RTE acknowledged this in its statement of 27 June of this year when it stated Grant Thornton had made no findings against me.
The fifth untruth is that there was a secret agreement with Renault that I tried to conceal. This is not true but not only that, it beggars belief. Think about it. I had a separate commercial agreement with Renault – the basis of which was that I would make public appearances and perform roadshows and things for them. The work that I have done for Renault is all over social media. The suggestion that was a secret makes no sense.
The sixth untruth is that RTÉ's underwriting of Renault's payment obligations was a secret. This is not true. RTÉ's underwriting of Renault's payment obligations was not a secret. As the documents we have prepared for the committee today show, and as my agent will explain in more detail, RTÉ committed in February 2020 to provide this guarantee in the early stages of contract negotiations around my 2020 to 2025 contract. This is unequivocally confirmed in an email entitled "critical document", dated 20 February 2020 from Breda O'Keeffe to my agent. It was copied to other members of the executive board: the director general, and RTÉ's solicitor's office. Everyone in RTÉ who needed to know, knew. Members will find this on page 10 of the booklet of documents they have in front of them. Far from being secret, it was well-known.
Finally, the seventh untruth is that I did not ask RTÉ about its under-declarations of my earnings. When RTÉ released the 2017, 2018 and 2019 earnings, all on the one day, 20 January 2021, this is a question I did not ask at that time. This is a question I should have asked. I fully accept that but I will try to explain it briefly and as clearly as humanly possible. At the end of the 2015 to 2020 contract, my agent advised me that I was entitled to a phenomenally large payment of €120,000, that has been variously called a loyalty or end of contract, or exit payment. I did not invoice for that payment. I did not pursue that payment and I did not receive any payment. The documents provided to the committee bear this out. In my simple view, I had foregone that payment for €120,000 and not taken it, but because of how RTÉ reported that decision in its accounts, the narrative of the last three weeks has been that not only did I take this payment but that I somehow contrived to hide it. Let me reiterate: I actually waived my entitlement to this payment and I did not receive one cent of it. I hid nothing. I had nothing to hide. As the evidence provided to the committee today shows, my agent had already pointed out to RTÉ in 2020 that we thought the manner in which they were planning to account for my earnings in 2017, 2018 and 2019 was incorrect. We had understood that they accepted our position so that by the time they released the figures, I assumed that the chief financial officer, the financial professionals in RTÉ and the external auditors who had audited the accounts in these years, 2017, 2018 and 2019, had accountancy reasons for accounting for it the way they did. I would like to add that my company earnings fully reflect what I earned in these and all subsequent years.
I am particularly upset and disappointed about the decision and framing of the RTÉ statement of 22 June, which inextricably linked my name to this whole fiasco. My name was mentioned 15 times in that statement and I was not consulted once. I did not have the Grant Thornton report, which RTÉ had and which RTÉ acknowledged made no findings of wrongdoing on my part. I asked RTÉ to clarify that this was the case; it did four days later, after much of the damage was done. Pretty much all of the damage was done. I signed a contract in good faith. I declared my earnings and I paid every cent of tax. My employer has acknowledged that it has engaged in deceptive practices to pay me - practices that were hidden from me.
I am nearly finished. Please forgive me for going over my time. The result is that I have become the face of a national scandal. I have been accused of being complicit, deceitful and dishonest. I think the statement of 22 June was very unhelpful in this regard. The full truth was concealed. I take full responsibility. I cannot say it enough. I take full responsibility for not asking more questions back on 20 January 2021 when the figures for 2017, 2018 and 2019 were released. I take responsibility for that. I understand but, as has become abundantly clear and obvious in the last three weeks: this highlights the existence of two RTÉs. There are those who were involved in attempting to conceal payments and who were in a position to call me or call my agent and ask for our help in establishing the full facts.
Instead, they chose to hurriedly issue a deeply damaging statement on 22 June, which failed to include the full facts.
I have nothing but respect and admiration for the great number of decent, hardworking people in RTÉ. They are my colleagues and friends. I am very sorry for those whose lives have been made difficult by an incessant dripping of new revelations. I am thinking particularly about my radio show colleagues and friends who have had to be put through all of this for reasons not of their own making. They all work hard in RTÉ. I thank those colleagues who supported me through these last few weeks.
In closing, I thank the many people from across the country who have taken time to stop me on the street, decent Irish citizens who have taken my shoulder and elbow in their hands and said, "You will get through this." I have cards and letters, nearly a foot off the ground, from people who have written to "Ryan Tubridy, Dublin". I got them, and fair play to the postpeople in An Post. I thank the Irish people for that. I am hopeful they will see from my statement and appearance here today that I am determined to inform them of the truth and to demonstrate that I have nothing to hide. I am also hopeful that I will soon get back on air to do the job I love. Thank you all for your patience.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Tubridy. It is normally five minutes for opening statements-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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-----and we are 15 minutes into the meeting. I ask you to be as brief as you can, Mr. Kelly. We want to give you the opportunity because we realise you are here today to give your side, so please co-operate.
Mr. Noel Kelly:
I want to echo everything Mr. Tubridy has said. I am sorry we are here today as well. We asked to come and meet the committee because we have huge respect for it. We have not spoken to anybody else. We just wanted to get the opportunity to put our side across. I will try to be as brief as I possibly can if the Cathaoirleach will allow it.
I thank the committee for the opportunity to meet with it today. I hope this meeting will help to clarify the confusion which has arisen over the past few weeks. We appreciate the seriousness of all these issues. The controversy over the past two weeks has been damaging to RTÉ but it has also been hugely damaging to Ryan Tubridy, me and my business.
Earlier today, we circulated a pack which we believe contains the key documents that will help to understand this crisis. The document runs to 39 pages and it includes relevant excerpts from Mr. Tubridy's 2015 and 2020 contracts with RTÉ, extracts from the accounts of Mr. Tubridy’s company for the relevant years and various mails which track the back-and-forth negotiations for the 2020 RTÉ contract with Renault. We have made redactions where necessary, but we have been as transparent as possible to inform the committee with all the information at our disposal. I want to highlight a number of documents which go to the heart of the issues.
Let me start with the under-declaration of payments made to Mr. Tubridy when they were published. These are the figures for 2017, 2018, 2019 and January 2021. This issue has caused a lot of distress and it is entirely a mess of RTÉ’s own making. Mr. Tubridy’s contract from 2015 - pages 1 to 4 of the pack - clearly states the fees he received in each of the following five years. They are set out in clause 8.1 of the contract and were €495,000, €495,000, €545,000, €545,000 and €545,000 for the five years. Mr. Tubridy received those fees exactly, nothing more and nothing less. This is confirmed in the extracts from Mr. Tubridy's filed accounts company, Tuttle Productions, which we also include in the pack. We note that the accounts of Tuttle Productions run from January to December, whereas RTÉ's contract ran from September.
In January 2021, when RTÉ made its incorrect declarations, it knew what it had paid Mr. Tubridy. Indeed, the chief financial officer emailed us on 19 December 2019 - this is on page 5 in the pack. She set out the actual earnings for each of the relevant years correctly but just over a year later, in January 2021, RTÉ made false or incorrect declarations about the same figures. In some respects, this was an accident waiting to happen. We previously asked RTÉ to give us reasonable notice when it planned to publish figures. My email on 16 January 2020 - on page 6 of the pack - specifically requests this. If it had done that, we would have had time to check the figures and avoid errors. However, RTÉ ignored our request for reasons I still do not understand.
In March 2020, we saw the first sign that RTÉ, with all its accountants and auditors, might be struggling to understand the correct accounting treatment for what they paid Mr. Tubridy in 2017, 2018 and 2019.
That month RTÉ sent us a letter about an exit fee Mr. Tubridy was due as part of his 2015 contract. It was agreed that Mr. Tubridy was not going to raise an invoice for this and RTÉ wanted to agree how to explain it. However, in the draft sent to us, RTÉ proposed to change the payments it had made to Mr. Tubridy already, effectively lowering them by €120,000. The logic was that it could offset the €120,000 we had agreed not to ask for in 2020 against payments that had already made to Mr. Tubridy for 2017, 2018 and 2019. We argued against this and RTÉ accepted our points at the time. This is clear from the document at pages 14 to 16 of our pack. For some reason, however, it looks like the confused thinking returned and RTÉ published the wrong figures again in January 2021, effectively causing huge reputational damage to Mr. Tubridy in the process.
Another important point I should add is that just last month, on 23 June, RTÉ published new figures. It effectively restated figures for payments to Mr. Tubridy for 2017, 2018 and 2019 and added in declarations for figures paid to him in 2020 and 2021. Bizarrely, the figures RTÉ declared for both 2020 and 2021 are wrong. In both years, it overstated the amount it paid Mr. Tubridy. We address this issue on pages 28 and 29 of the pack. For 2020, RTÉ overstated earnings of €62,536 and for 2021, it overstated €83,381. Clearly, RTÉ is still struggling with these declarations.
I turn to the Renault contract which ran parallel to the 2020 contract Mr. Tubridy had with RTÉ. I refer members to page 5 of the pack. This is an email sent to NK Management on 19 December 2019 by RTÉ's then chief financial officer, CFO, Ms Breda O'Keeffe. This email sets out RTÉ’s starting position for negotiations on the 2020 contract. Members will see that this email is where the idea of a commercial sponsorship with a third party with an annual fee of €75,000 is first suggested. This comes from RTÉ. This did not strike us as unusual as Renault was a key sponsor for RTÉ, so it was understandable that it would wish to ensure all parties were aligned.
Next we come to RTÉ's decision to underwrite this Renault contract. This is perhaps the most shocking revelation of this morning. Since this controversy began, RTÉ has tried to distance itself from this decision. It has effectively blamed former director general Dee Forbes for doing a solo run and giving a verbal commitment to underwrite the contract on a Zoom call in May. RTÉ executives said there was a strong pushback against the idea of underwriting the agreement. That is incorrect. I refer members to page 10 of the pack. At the time, Ms O’Keeffe was the chief financial officer of RTÉ. On page 10, members will see an email she sent to my office. It is dated 20 February 2020. It is copied to another member of the executive board, the then director general and RTÉ’s solicitor. In this email Ms O’Keeffe responds in red to various points which had been discussed. She states at the top of the email that this is "our final position", because negotiations go back and forth, in respect of the new contract. In the last paragraph on this page, Ms O’Keeffe, on behalf of RTÉ, states explicitly "we can provide you with a side letter to underwrite this fee for the duration of the contract". There was no secret; there is no secret. To our surprise, Ms O’Keeffe told the committee last week that when she left RTÉ in March there was no support to provide that type of guarantee and no such guarantee was on offer. However, she had written to us making exactly that offer a month earlier. Last week, nobody from RTÉ here with Ms O’Keeffe challenged her when she said that. We were surprised too because on 30 June, four days before she appeared at the media committee, we wrote to RTÉ and highlighted the significance of Ms O’Keeffe’s email.
Ms O'Keeffe's email also casts a new light on the contribution of Adrian Lynch, deputy director general, to the committee. Mr. Lynch told the committee that agreement to underwrite the contract was given verbally on a Zoom call with NK Management on 7 May by the then director general. He described this as "the significant point at the centre of this". RTÉ has tried to portray the guarantee as a decision given late in the negotiations on a Zoom call by Dee Forbes without the awareness of the executive board.
Clearly, that is not correct. The decision was taken early by RTÉ and was known widely within the executive board of RTÉ.
Let me move now to the invoicing arrangements for the Renault contract. Our document pack shows that RTÉ did not just suggest the idea of a contract with Renault; it oversaw every development and implementation of same. We were happy with that. We knew Renault was a major sponsor for RTÉ so RTÉ would be committed to keeping it happy. We knew the contract with Renault was a separate contract from Mr. Tubridy’s independent contractor services contract with RTÉ for radio and TV work. We understood that Mr. Tubridy would have to do extra work for Renault but that was no different from the other work he would do for the BBC or for his publishers etc. This was just a separate commercial agreement. Mr. Tubridy was agreeing to a substantial pay cut from RTÉ and he was entitled to seek other work outside RTÉ. There was nothing secret about this - far from it. The contract required Mr. Tubridy to do public appearances for Renault for which it could seek and expect attention, as indeed it did.
With the terms agreed, RTÉ instructed us on how to invoice for this work. For the first invoice, it instructed us to raise an invoice directly with Renault. It gave us names and details and set out the proposed narrative for the invoice. The committee can see the instructions RTÉ gave us for this in an email on 24 July 2020 on page 23 in our document pack and on page 24 it can see the invoice we did indeed send to Renault. When it came to the second and third invoices, RTÉ gave us new instructions. I refer the committee to page 25 of the pack, showing an email from RTÉ’s then commercial director, Ms Geraldine O’Leary, dated 29 April 2022. This invoice passes on instructions for how invoices two and three should be raised. That email instructed us on the company name to be put on the invoice, namely, Astus; the address to be put on the invoice; and the VAT reference to be included on the invoice. The email instructed us not to put any person’s name on it. This email also gave us a general assurance from a colleague of Ms O’Leary’s that "if he [meaning NK Management] sends it back to me I will then sort everything else out."
The committee should know that while the invoices were made out to Astus, we were directed to email them to RTÉ and it would do what was necessary to process them with Astus. I should stress that at this time we in NK Management had no idea who Astus was. We had no reason to think Astus was linked to RTÉ or that it was acting on behalf of RTÉ. We had no idea it might be making payments to us on behalf of RTÉ or that the payments were linked to RTÉ underwriting the Renault contract. RTÉ never said that to us. Astus never said that to us. Renault never said that to us. We simply followed the instructions we were given as we had with the first invoice. The committee will see a copy of the two invoices we raised in the name of Astus, sent by email from us to RTÉ, in the pack on pages 26 and 27.
People have asked why we went along with those instructions and why we did not set out more detail about what the invoices related to. At the time we had no reason to suspect RTÉ might be trying to hide payments to Mr. Tubridy. I am still shocked that was its intention. We trusted RTÉ. It is not some unknown start-up, with opaque funding, a chequered past or a record for dodgy financial dealings. It is a national institution that is almost 100 years old. It is a massive business turning over €350 million a year. It has internal and external auditors. It has a heavyweight board and teams of financial advisers and accountants. As Mr. Bakhurst said yesterday, RTÉ has robust processes and rigorous oversight of finances in many parts of the organisation. That is what we assumed too. Why would we suspect it was hiding information about one of its key contracts? Why would it even do that?
We are nearing the end. I am sorry but this is important. I want to address one other thing. There has been a lot of coverage of a side letter with the 2020 contract in which the RTÉ director general says the agreed earnings in the contract will not be reduced during the term of the contract. As any lawyer will confirm, this letter had no practical impact. The contract itself guarantees the earnings; that is what a contract does. We were simply trying to impress on RTÉ that Mr. Tubridy had just signed up to new cuts in his 2020 contract of €525,000 and had also never taken the payment of €120,000 so RTÉ should not even think about coming back for more cuts given the size of those cuts.
To conclude, for the past number of years Mr. Tubridy has continued to perform at the highest level, working with millions of colleagues and leading shows which brought in, over a six-year period, €100 million in revenue to RTÉ. He raised tens of millions for charities through the toy show appeals and various others.
We have heard a lot about RTÉ's public service ethos but let us call a spade a spade. RTÉ is a hybrid organisation. Its commercial activities are key to keeping the station afloat, maintaining jobs and creating content. Ryan Tubridy has been a huge driver for RTÉ's most successful commercial activities over the past 14 years.
Ryan and I, and our families and friends, have attracted a horrendous amount of criticism and abuse in the past few weeks, which I would not wish on anybody, and why? Because the only figure in this whole story whose face was recognisable was Ryan Tubridy's. He has been made a poster boy for this scandal and that is undeserved. This is not the Ryan Tubridy scandal; this is the RTÉ scandal.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for those opening statements. Before we move to the committee members, Mr. Tubridy might clarify one issue for me. Obviously, the invoices for the payments of €75,000 were what brought this to light in March when the auditors found them. I want to ask Mr. Tubridy to set the scene for this meeting this morning. That €75,000 shortfall gap or additional payment - call it what you like - had to be made up. The country was shut down.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thousands of my constituents and people around the country were on a €200 or €300 per week pandemic payment. Did Mr. Tubridy or his agent between them have any doubts about the merits of that or the credibility of seeking to make up that €75,000 at that particular point? Mr. Tubridy presented "The Late Late Show" and provided a good service. I watched it because it was good viewing right throughout Covid-19. I acknowledge that the performances were great given the circumstances. However, did Mr. Tubridy have any doubts about the credibility or merits of looking for that and about his own credibility?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Tubridy might give short answers because we want to move on.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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With regard to that issue, Mr Tubridy.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On Mr. Tubridy's instructions.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It was on Mr. Tubridy's instructions.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Did Mr. Tubridy have any doubts in those discussions they had between them back in the earlier part of 2020 around all of this?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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About the merits of it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is not what I am asking Mr. Tubridy. Did he have doubts about the public optics of this and the possible reputational damage of looking for that €75,000 in those circumstances? It is a "Yes" or "No" answer. Did he discuss the merits of that? That is all I want to know.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Did Mr. Tubridy discuss that with his agent?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Tubridy is telling me this morning that he had no conversation with NK Management regarding the matter of looking for this gap of €75,000.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Tubridy knew this gap had to be made up and this €75,000 had to be magicked up, for want of a better term, some way or another.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Tubridy has clarified it. He had no doubts about the merits, credibility or possible reputational damage. That was not discussed.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I thank Mr. Tubridy. Deputy Munster has 15 minutes.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I wish the witnesses a good morning. I want start off with the tripartite agreement. I ask Mr. Kelly to keep his answers as short as possible. Can he tell us briefly how that came about? What was the reason for it?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry; I must interrupt for a second. It was an RTÉ initiative, but it had to stem from somewhere. Mr. Kelly said in his opening statement that Mr. Tubridy was agreeing to a substantial pay cut from RTÉ. Did it come about on the basis of Mr. Kelly negotiating with RTÉ?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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So how did it come about?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Kelly is seriously saying that it did not come about at all from the pay cuts that Mr. Tubridy was going to take. It was not a way of topping up his salary.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Why would RTÉ, off its own bat, be concerned about setting Mr. Kelly’s client up with a commercial deal? Why would it suddenly, at a time when everybody else was asked to take pay cuts, do that? Who in RTÉ came to Mr. Kelly and said “Listen, we want to look after Ryan and set up a separate commercial deal”? Can Mr. Kelly honestly say that he did not initiate that in any shape or form with RTÉ?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Then tell us, who in RTÉ came to Mr. Kelly and what did they say?
Mr. Noel Kelly:
Referring to page 5 in the pack, under the proposed terms of the new contract, this came from Breda O’Keeffe and was copied to other people as well. They and Renault had wanted Mr. Tubridy to go to the dealers and meet all of their customers. The relationship was between the sponsor and RTÉ. We had nothing to do with that. We do not work with them. The relationship is with RTÉ and it is probably the biggest sponsorship.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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RTÉ contacted Mr. Kelly and said “Listen. We are a little bit concerned. Ryan has taken a pay cut. We want to set up a separate deal."
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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But who came to Mr. Kelly? Was it the director general?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Breda O’Keeffe came to Mr. Kelly. On page 9 of his documents – the pack he gave us – I think it was Mr. Kelly who stated "we would also need a side letter agreement from RTE to guarantee and underwrite this fee for the duration of this contract and beyond into the next contract". Mr. Kelly sought a guarantee for a deal that he had nothing to do with as such.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We know that. Mr. Kelly said that. Sorry, time is of the essence. Mr. Kelly sought the guarantee that RTÉ would pay if the deal went belly up.
Mr. Noel Kelly:
It was never for RTÉ to pay. The guarantee was around if another sponsor came in. Again, the relationship is with RTÉ and the sponsor, not with us. RTÉ would have to talk to the sponsor and ask if they wanted Mr. Tubridy to do something. The sponsor obviously wants to have the host perform different duties for them.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Kelly did not agree with RTÉ underwriting the deal.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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At this stage the sponsors were gone and you said-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about the tripartite and years two and three as well. Not only did RTÉ underwrite the Renault contract but also there was an agreement to underwrite the two. Mr. Kelly was looking for a side letter agreement from RTÉ to guarantee and underwrite this for the duration of this contract and beyond into the next contract. Mr. Kelly clearly stated on page 9 of his document that he wanted RTÉ to underwrite. In response to him, Breda O’Keeffe, in her email – I think it is on page 10 of the pack – stated explicitly that on behalf of RTÉ, "we can provide you with a side letter to underwrite this fee for the duration of the contract". Mr. Kelly had requested that they underwrite it and Ms O’Keeffe, in that email on page 10 of the pack, was responding to his request. That is correct.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Kelly stated that Mr. Tubridy was agreeing to a substantial pay cut and he was entitled to seek work elsewhere. That is absolutely fine and nobody has an issue with that.
The problem here is that the deal was underwritten at Mr. Kelly's request for the three years by the public purse.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is the problem here. The deal was underwritten, at Mr. Kelly's request, for the three years of the contract, and it was paid for by public moneys. That is the issue.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Underwritten by who? RTÉ?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, the public purse.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Kelly requested that it be underwritten by RTÉ, and that could only mean that RTÉ takes the hit for it and ponies up.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I want to move on, because time is of the essence. Mr. Kelly refers to page 25 in the pack. It is page 6 in his statement. There was an email from the commercial director for the two by three invoices for €75,000 to be raised, and there was an instruction not to put any person's name on it. Mr. Kelly said there was no secret about this deal, but he agreed to not putting a name on that. I presume that Mr. Kelly would agree that there were no consultancy fees, and that there was no consultancy done for the €75,000?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but Mr. Kelly is also a businessman and negotiator-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Kelly is a businessman and a negotiator, and he looks after his clients. That is his job. There is no issue with that whatsoever. However, Mr. Kelly was instructed not to put names on the invoices - and we are not talking about €2.99 or €3.50, we are talking about invoices for €75,000 - and he knew that he had asked RTÉ to underwrite the agreement. They confirmed that they were underwriting the agreement, they were putting it through the barter account, Mr. Kelly was told not to put a name on it, he knew exactly what it was for, and he did not flag that up. He went along with it, and yet he says there was nothing secret about the deal.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but Mr. Kelly knew RTÉ was underwriting the deal, and that it was the €75,000 payment that was due to Mr. Tubridy, but he did not put any-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. That is fair enough. We heard last week that the auditors were not happy, that Grant Thornton was brought in and that at some point, Mr. Kelly was informed of it. When was that, and was it the director general who informed Mr. Kelly, or who and when?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Its legal office, which would have been who exactly?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, so RTÉ knew, Grant Thornton knew, and Mr. Kelly knew. Did he tell his client about it?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I want to come to Mr. Tubridy. In 2019 - he might have seen this out in the public domain recently - he launched the St. Vincent de Paul Christmas appeal. When he was interviewed, he said that he was haunted by the idea of children in poverty, and the homeless crisis. He also said that he would accept RTÉ's cost-cutting measures graciously, and when it came to this issue, that is not something he has ever been found wanting on. However, here we are three or four years later, and we know that pay cut was subsidised by this deal.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is what it looks like. That is what it was-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, I am sure-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, just one second. We are asking questions here.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is absolutely fine.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Nobody has mentioned the work those people do. I am referring to what Mr. Tubridy stated, as quoted in the media. That is what I am referring to.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I accept he does a lot of charity work
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I accept that and there is nobody saying anything otherwise.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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He does that good work. However, at the same time, Mr. Tubridy knew that this separate deal was being done and that it would compensate for the pay cuts. He also knew, and this is the thing, that his agent had requested that RTÉ underwrite that agreement.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, I will just get to the question. He knew that the pay deal was going to make softer any pay cut that had been taken but he also knew through his agent that RTÉ was underwriting that deal. He knew that when his colleagues-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No, I am not talking about Renault. I am talking about the tripartite-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will allow Mr. Kelly to answer briefly. He should keep it concise.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is what I am talking about. The tripartite deal where the two-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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RTÉ had underwritten that agreement and it was paying it. My question to Mr. Tubridy was-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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But RTÉ paid Renault and then the two €75,000 payments-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about the two €75,000 payments. We have just discussed it so there is no way the witnesses do not know about the two €75,000 payments that Mr. Kelly was asked not to put any person's name on. They were-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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-----underwritten, as has been said, at his request.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is the question being directed at Mr. Tubridy?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, it is being directed at Mr. Tubridy.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Then I ask Mr. Kelly to please not interrupt.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No, and that is fair enough, and likewise. However, I am asking Mr. Tubridy again on that. He said that child poverty haunts him, and that is perfectly understandable.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Of course. However, where does that tally with the fact that Mr. Tubridy knew that two payments were going through for €75,000? The tripartite agreement was struck. He knew those payments were for himself as part of that tripartite agreement but he would have also known that RTÉ had agreed to underwrite that agreement. Therefore, in fact it was the taxpayers, the licence fee holders, who were paying that money; it was not the commercial fee.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No. We are talking about the second and third one.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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With all respect, no.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No, there is no misunderstanding. We have sat through three weeks of it, in all fairness.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There is no misunderstanding from our side.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There is no misunderstanding. We are talking about the two €75,000 payments. If Mr. Tubridy prefers not to answer, that is fine.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Tubridy received €345,000 extra in payments that was underwritten by RTÉ, so the taxpayer paid.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. We are going to move on. We have to keep moving because we have full attendance here.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy Ó Cathasaigh.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I thank the witnesses for attending and for their opening statements. I know Mr. Tubridy is fond of a small quirky fact that tells a story. I am sure he knows as well that 79% of us listen to radio daily here in Ireland, despite everything else that is open to us, from Spotify to podcasts. Like most people, we are big radio listeners in our house and Mr. Tubridy was in our kitchen five mornings a week.
That is the thing. He was that familiar voice in our kitchen. When he told us during Covid in particular, and I am sure during the recessions, that we were all in it together we believed him. That is why we feel so shattered by this story now. Mr. Tubridy has set out a strong rebuttal. It is clear that RTÉ, when they appear before us again on Thursday, will have a serious set of questions to answer. The fact remains, rightly or wrongly, that public trust in our public broadcaster and in Mr. Tubridy has been shattered. Maybe today is a start, but we will see.
I have one quick question. Is it true that Mr. Tubridy engaged the services of an internal or external crisis communications team before appearing today?
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Were people paid to offer crisis communications advice, either internal or external?
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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We will take that as "Yes." I hope the answer to my next question is "No," but was Mr. Tubridy advised by those people to delay the documentation until 8.30 a.m. this morning?
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It is a comprehensive set of documentation. It sheds a lot of light on a huge amount of things-----
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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-----but it was received at 8.30 a.m. The staff who support this committee stayed up until very late last night got up very early this morning.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Briefly, if he could.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I fully accept and I do not want to interrupt, but I have one eye to the clock.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I want to examine one thing in Mr. Tubridy's opening statement. He states clearly that he took a 20% pay cut. Is that inclusive or exclusive of the €75,000 he was receiving either from Renault, or from RTÉ through a barter account? When Mr. Tubridy says he took a 20% pay cut, is that inclusive or exclusive of the €75,000.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Is the 20% referred to the direct payment from RTÉ?
Mr. Noel Kelly:
I will explain the percentage. That was from 2015 to 2019. In Mr. Tubridy's next contract, his salary was €440,000 per annum. That was €200,000 for radio, and €240,000 for television. That was a €105,000 reduction per year multiplied by five. That was €525,000. It did not include the €120,000 he did not take, and the Renault €75,000 was a completely separate contract. This was on his television and radio earnings.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It is exclusive of the Renault contract or the payment through RTÉ by the barter account.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I have to contest that we regard this as separate. The email over and back that we see in the contract negotiations are shocking to all of the members for a number of reasons. The first is the number of people who are included, and Mr. Kelly has drawn attention to that.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It also points clearly to the fact that it is not separate. It is part of the RTÉ contract.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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If it were entirely separate, why would RTÉ be involved in it?
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I asked the question of Mr. Tubridy and it was in his opening statement. That is exclusive of the €75,000. Would he accept it is difficult for us to reconcile the idea that this was an entirely separate arrangement, when it formed part of the contract negotiations?
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Okay. I want to move on to Mr. Kelly's part in this. I think it is important to put to bed any idea that Mr. Tubridy made any decision about "The Late Late Show" on foot of this.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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We know the two problematic invoices were presented to Dee Forbes on 8 March. Whenever Mr. Tubridy took his decision he announced it on 16 March. Would Mr. Kelly have Dee Forbes's telephone number in his phone?
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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No.
Mr. Noel Kelly:
If I can explain, there are so many untruths, I find it bizarre.
I have only ever met Dee Forbes with her legal team in their office in RTÉ. I have never had a cup of tea with Dee Forbes. I have never met Dee Forbes for lunch. I have never met her for dinner. I do not know Dee Forbes apart from when I would meet her in RTÉ-----
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I am sorry - we are so time-compressed here.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I want to ask a very simple question and it sounds like Mr. Tubridy would welcome the opportunity. Was there any communication to Mr. Tubridy or NK Management between 8 March and 16 March regarding these problematic invoices?
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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That is fine.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I do want to contest that because between 3 May and 5 May, there is an over and back-----
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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-----between Paula Mullooly and NK Management where specific reference is made to the Century Merchandising Services, CMS, invoices.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I do want to ask Mr. Kelly about the decision to use CMS. I want to contest that because there is certainly an over and back between NK Management
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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-----and Paula Mullooly.
Mr. Noel Kelly:
There is just a lot of emails. We were first made aware of it on 3 May and after that, we met with Grant Thornton to talk to them about it. In relation to Mr. Tubridy stepping down or stepping back, he had said it to me the previous year and I said to him "Why? Why are you leaving?" and he-----
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I am so sorry to interrupt Mr. Kelly and I do not want to come across as hectoring but I have two minutes remaining and a list of questions as long as your arm.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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On the invoicing, I noticed in the accounts that were returned at the end of the year that in respect of money transferred to Tuttle Productions, it can essentially be seen in the normal run of a year that the amount derived from NK Management is quite small and that in the years in question, it was large. The €75,000 can be seen. Mr. Kelly has four companies that are registered out of Unit 2b, Calmount Office Park, Ballymount: NK Management; Noel Kelly Management Nominees Limited, which was registered on 16 March 2023; Century Merchandising Services, CMS, Limited; and Cleary Consultancy Limited. Why was it CMS that decided to raise the invoice?
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Why CMS?
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It is NK Management that appears at the end of year.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Mr. Kelly has no explanation for why NK Management above CMS. It just adds a layer of opacity because I know what NK Management is but I do not know what CMS is.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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With this direction from RTÉ, we have all received emails saying, "All you have to do is invoice a certain company in wherever and all of this money will be yours." It concerns an invoice for €75,000 to a company Mr. Kelly says he does not know and has never come across. He has no reason to suspect RTÉ is hiding payments but it asked him to invoice this company to receive a payment and he did not say, "I'm sorry but who is this company and why am I invoicing them?"
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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The context of this is that Mr. Kelly has been upset about the recording of earnings beforehand.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Briefly.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It was my missus, unfortunately. I am up here. My missus listens regularly.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee voluntarily. It is very much appreciated. I will follow on from my colleague.
Century Merchandising Services Limited is CMS.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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When I searched the Companies Registration Office, CRO, register I found that all the CMS companies had been struck off, so I am a little concerned about the witnesses using those letters when the CRO showed all companies called CMS had been struck off the register. It is trading under Century Merchandising Services Limited. That is CMS.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I know, but for clarity, all the companies registered under the name CMS have been struck off for various reasons.
I will ask a question on the contracts. The contract between RTÉ and Tuttle Productions Limited is the five-year agreement.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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However, the agreement that was drafted by the witnesses is between Renault Ireland Limited, RTÉ and Ryan Tubridy. Tuttle Productions Limited is not a party. Is there a reason for that?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I have a copy of the agreement.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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This is the contract that was prepared in relation to the agreement between the three organisations, but it is not with Tuttle Productions.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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No, the one I have is-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The agreement is with a separate legal entity to the agreement between Tuttle Productions Limited and RTÉ. This agreement is between Ryan Tubridy, Renault and RTÉ.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Did the €75,000 go into the Tuttle Productions Limited account?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The invoice that was produced, which I think-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The invoice NK Management produced does not mention Tuttle Productions Limited. It mentions Ryan Tubridy. It does not mention Tuttle Productions Limited at all. It is on page 24.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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If the agreement is ongoing with Tuttle Productions Limited, why was the invoice sent out in a person's name?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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From a legal point of view, there seem to be two different legal entities, namely Tuttle Productions Limited and Ryan Tubridy.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I will move on to the invoices. When NK Management noticed that it was invoicing a company based in the UK, did Mr. Kelly not raise serious concerns about that issue? Obviously, if the invoice is made out to a UK company, then NK Management is not putting in for VAT or anything else, yet the service was delivered in Ireland.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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In fairness, NK Management is a separate legal entity to RTÉ. Should it not have asked further questions about that?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but when NK Management was asked to send in the invoices, it was asked to make them out to a UK company. Did that not raise concerns from its point of view as regards ensuring the company was not doing anything, particularly where the service was delivered in Ireland? The service was not delivered in the UK. It was delivered through RTÉ to Renault and not to a UK company.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is not the question. Mr. Kelly is going completely off the question Deputy Burke is trying to ask. I ask the Deputy to put the question straight again. It is a direct question and I ask Mr. Kelly to give a concise answer to it.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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When the invoice was made out, it was made out to a UK company.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I am saying that the service was delivered in Ireland-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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-----for Irish companies, RTÉ and Renault in Ireland. Did it not raise concerns with Mr. Kelly and Mr. Tubridy from an accounting point of view that they were being asked to bill a UK company? They said in their statements that they knew nothing about the barter account, they had never dealt with a barter account before and that this was their first time dealing with one. Did they not raise questions as to why the invoice should be made out to a UK company?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Was it not more reason for raising a question if Mr. Kelly did not know about it?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Did Mr. Kelly ask Renault if this was the reason and if this was the connection, rather than sending it in? Remember, it was RTÉ that was giving Mr. Kelly the instructions, not Renault. Therefore, should Mr. Kelly not have raised that question?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Paragraph 2.2(g) of the Grant Thornton report raises the fact that: "The Director General was not involved in the drafting, signing or implementation of this agreement (being the Tri-partite)." It seems that we are being furnished with certain names but we are not being given all of the names. I am wondering who exactly was there who knew about all of this agreement. Mr. Kelly was involved but who in RTÉ was there who was involved in this agreement?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Grant Thornton report says: "The Director General was not involved in the drafting, signing or implementation of this agreement".
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Can Mr. Kelly tell us who was there from legal, financial and commercial?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Mr. Kelly is saying the commercial people were there as well. We need to know who exactly was there because this information is not being given to us. Mr. Kelly was there or someone from his office was there.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Who?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is she from the solicitor's office?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Was there anyone else there?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I want to move on to Mr. Tubridy. My colleague raised the issue of the level of fees and when I looked at Mr. Tubridy's accounts I saw that in 2016 the income through the accounts was €660,000. I accept that there has been a reduction in what he is receiving. With all of this controversy, there is now a problem in the entire country, and within RTÉ, with trust and the ethics of this. Looking at it now, how does Mr. Tubridy feel this trust can be rebuilt? What is Mr. Tubridy's preference as regards going back to work for RTÉ?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What about the issue of trust?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The question I am asking Mr. Tubridy is this: how does he now rebuild that trust?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How do we now rebuild the trust, first of all if Mr. Tubridy goes back into RTÉ, secondly the trust in RTÉ itself-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Deputy is going over time.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
-----and thirdly building the trust with his own colleagues?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I ask for a brief answer.
Mr. Ryan Tubridy:
I will just say that they are off to a good start this week with the new director general. Hopefully, people will see and hear what I am saying today and they will realise that, in a lot of what has happened over the last three weeks, I have been dragged into a mess not of my own making.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
With your colleagues?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I call Deputy Devlin.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank our witnesses for their attendance this morning.
Such is the issue surrounding this that Mr. Tubridy is right about people stopping him. Obviously, we are living in the same area and I know the high regard in which Mr. Tubridy is held and the respect people have for him, including kids who are wondering why the toy man is being in the news so much. That said, given the events over the last two weeks - we have engaged with RTÉ on quite a number of occasions - has that been the reason Mr. Tubridy wanted to come here voluntarily? Does the reason have more to do with what he heard from those engagements with RTÉ and what the various executives and board members said, or has it been everything else surrounding this whole issue? What is the main driver of Mr. Tubridy wanting to be here?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Just on-----
Mr. Ryan Tubridy:
Sorry, I am leaving a gap. Forgive me; it is a comma, not a full stop. I am not looking for sympathy now or a violin. I am simply responding to the question asked by the Deputy. He brought up the kids. My relationship with the children of Ireland is so important to me. I know that sounds grandiose, but actually it is. I want them to be happy, hopeful and proud to be Irish, to read lots of books and to be wonderful young people. That does not change, but what has been happening in the last three weeks is like a frenzy.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Can I specifically ask Mr. Tubridy about what he has heard? Maybe Mr. Kelly would like to come in on this as well. I presume they watched all of the evidence that has been given to both Oireachtas committees over the last couple of weeks.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Even in Mr. Tubridy's statement, he referred to it as "a fog of confusion". To me, it is a cloud of confusion at this point because what he is saying now directly contradicts what this committee and others have been told over the past couple of weeks by certain individuals. That is extremely worrying, both from a parliamentary perspective but also from a fact and truthful perspective, bearing in mind, referring to Mr. Kelly's statement, that RTÉ is an "institution" of the Irish State and those representing it.
I will turn to a few elements. The first is the question around Mr. Tubridy's decision. Mr. Tubridy said he had been thinking about it long and hard. Obviously, I can appreciate why it would be such a big decision.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is there any evidence? It is not that I doubt what Mr. Tubridy has said about when he made his decision-----
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
-----but, for clarity in terms of the public domain, is there is any correspondence predating-----
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
-----April or May? Yes.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is there anything between the two of them? It is not that I want it published but I just want to clear the record. Is there anything - text messages, emails or anything - that says that this is coming up?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that.
Mr. Noel Kelly:
We asked to come here today. We were not invited; we asked. I have never seen such horrendous reporting as over the last three weeks. Why, suddenly, was the most trusted man in Ireland, Ryan Tubridy, thrown under a bus? Why? When the first report came out, which was sent out from the board on 22-----
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
This is the statement.
Mr. Noel Kelly:
Yes, the statement. We had to ask our lawyers if we could get a copy. Again, we are on the back foot. When RTÉ sent out the top ten earners, again, we get ten minutes.
Again, I had to put in a request for the information. When we got the statement, half an hour before it went out, we said there were inaccuracies in it. Grant Thornton said there was no wrongdoing on behalf of Ryan Tubridy and Noel Kelly and everything was in order. We asked them to put that in, and they did not. Four days later, it was put in, and four days later, Ryan Tubridy was taken off the air. He did not have his show on the Friday and he was not on the show the following week. It looked like he was complicit in this whole RTÉ mess. I am sorry but this has been the worst of times.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. I know that is why you are here.
Mr. Ryan Tubridy:
People need to think about that. You are a public representative, so you know what it means when you are in the middle of something. You get that. This is not my first rodeo being in the public eye, but I have never seen anything like it. I do not know if any of you have been cancelled before, but let me tell you, you do not want to be there.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the physical and oral statements made in the Houses of the Oireachtas, one of the inaccuracies that Mr. Tubridy has alluded to concerns the secret overpayment by RTÉ, which he said he challenged back in 2020. Was that challenge in writing?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There are a lot of documents.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is in writing. That is all I wanted to establish.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I also want to get a timeframe in terms of the negotiation of Mr. Tubridy's first contract. Did those negotiations start in 2014?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The end of 2014. That contract ran to 2020 and then there were fresh negotiations around the contract.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When did the negotiations start for the Renault contract?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Mr. Kelly can see where the cloud or fog of confusion arises when people say that the two contracts are running parallel and one had a 20% pay cut and the other had a supplement.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Briefly, please, because I am under time pressure.
Mr. Noel Kelly:
I know but the Deputy asked me a question. As I said, within that timeframe, we had agreed that the €120,000 would be gone and the €525,000 would not be invoiced. We did not go out printing that. I appreciate what the Deputy is saying about the fog of confusion. There is so much confusion.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Try sitting where we are sitting.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In terms of the invoicing, I hear what Mr. Kelly says. He did what he was told.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There is an email in the pack provided and he mentioned all the information on the invoice. I think Astus is the name of the company he was told to invoice from.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Did he ever meet any representatives from Astus?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Was this just a new company that he was told to invoice?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That was not really questioned at all, on Mr. Kelly's part either.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
So if RTÉ had asked him to pay Newstalk, would he have done that too?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I am being facetious because Mr. Kelly was negotiating with RTÉ on a contract and he was told to invoice a different company he had never heard of. How did that come about and how come there was no questioning of it?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I get that.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Why was there not a question about who was being invoiced? Mr. Kelly was negotiating with RTÉ and now he was invoicing Joe Bloggs.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Did it ever ask him to invoice a company he had never heard of?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No, in the negotiations-----
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
On the Zoom call of 7 May-----
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Were they the solicitors that Mr. Kelly spoke about, Trish Whelan and-----
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There were three representatives from RTÉ at the meeting, two from the solicitor's office and then the DG.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There was a colleague of Mr. Kelly's on his side.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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In the last minute or so that I have, I want to ask about Toy Show, The Musical. We have heard a lot about it. We have heard there was a €2.2 million loss. I know Mr. Kelly was not directly involved but is an agent acting on behalf of Mr. Tubridy. Mr. Tubridy works, or worked, with RTÉ.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Tubridy aware of anybody who was-----
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We have.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Mr. Tubridy was not aware of any staff who were seconded from RTÉ to Toy Show, The Musical.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I want to ask Mr. Tubridy, given he is probably, as was said earlier, the face of this issue-----
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of everything Mr. Tubridy has heard from his former colleagues in RTÉ - directors and executives - what has been the biggest inaccuracy that he has heard? I know he has highlighted seven but is there any one in particular that he wants to highlight this afternoon?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome our witnesses. Hopefully, this meeting will go some way towards getting transparency, which has been missing until this point. I want to establish a clear timeline as to who knew what and when. We know that on 3 March, Mr. Tubridy had stated, when questioned about his ongoing position with “The Late Late Show” and whether he would continue or not:
I don’t know where this is coming from, the story comes up every year or two. I am here talking to you today with a view to go straight back into the job I love.
Is that correct?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There is no need to. That is accurate for 3 March. On 7 March, we know from questioning that Deloitte first contacted Richard Collins, the chief financial officer. That has been established and it is not disputed. We know Mr. Collins on 8 March contacted Dee Forbes to get to the bottom of the nature of those two invoices that we know had been issued, and that is not up for dispute. It was stated that a meeting took place between Mr. Kelly and someone within RTÉ in the week beginning 6 March of this year. Does Mr. Kelly recall meeting someone?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. It was stated that Mr. Kelly met with Alan Tyler from RTÉ the week beginning 6 March.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Mr. Kelly has no recollection of that. Okay. When did Mr. Tubridy notify RTÉ that he was going to-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. On what date did Mr. Kelly meet him?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What date in March?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What was the purpose of that meeting?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
To be helpful, if Mr. Kelly has his diary with him, he could check that during the break.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
You could have somebody check it during the break. We will be breaking for ten minutes.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It would be important that we establish when Mr. Kelly met with him in March. It was stated it was 6 March and I think it is important.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am just wondering when Mr. Kelly met with Mr. Tyler.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When did Mr. Tubridy inform RTÉ that he was stepping down?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. On the same day, Mr. Tubridy announced publicly that he was going to be stepping back from “The Late Late Show”.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No. Mr. Tubridy stated publicly on 16 March that he was going to be stepping back. When did he notify RTÉ of his decision?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Had anyone in RTÉ notified Mr. Tubridy or Mr. Kelly-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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-----of the concerns that Deloitte highlighted?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes or no, because time is unfortunately against us. Yes or no, did anyone from RTÉ-----
Mr. Ryan Tubridy:
I need a little time too, forgive me. I will be here until the last dog barks, until the Deputy believes me that that decision came from my heart and soul. The kernel of that decision was last August. We can talk about timelines and dates and Grant Thornton and everything else-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes or no, did anyone from RTÉ-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Can Mr. Tubridy answer the question? Did anyone from RTÉ contact either Mr. Tubridy or Mr. Kelly about the review that Deloitte had-----?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The tripartite agreement was not signed until 21 April 2023, a month and a half after the issue was first identified by Deloitte. Why was that only signed at that stage?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We are expected to believe it is purely coincidental that a month and a half after Deloitte identified these questionable invoices that this was taken down off the shelf when everything had hit the fan and retrospectively signed a couple of years after the contract took place?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I want to ask about this tripartite agreement. Is it purely coincidental that was taken down off the shelf and signed in April, a month and a half after Deloitte raised these concerns?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
So it was a coincidence?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am not getting a clear answer.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Mr. Kelly is leading us to believe it was pure coincidence that it was signed in April, a month after Deloitte raised these issues and a number of years after the contract came about. Can I just ask, in regard to-----
Mr. Noel Kelly:
On 18 April, page 35 in the pack reads: Niamh, thank you for calling this morning. In the email below, the sum I mentioned refers to the third side letter which we do not seem to have on file. We do not seem to have a fully signed copy with Renault. We signed the letter.
We were not concealing any issue. It was just a Renault-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In regard to the commercial contract, Mr. Kelly said it was Breda O'Keeffe who came up with the idea of this commercial contract.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is that a normal thing or would this be unusual in terms of negotiating on behalf of-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay, for the people Mr. Kelly represents, would it be normal that RTÉ would put forward proposals for a commercial element to be part of the contract? Would that be normal, or an exception?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is an exception. Are there no other cases involving any other people?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There are no other cases. In regard to the invoicing, we know there was an attempt, and a trail is there, that no names were to appear on the invoices. Whose suggestion was it to label them as consultancy fees?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Who in RTÉ informed Mr. Kelly to put it down as consultancy fees?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay, in the Grant Thornton review it states very clearly that no consultancy fees were provided either by the talent or the talent's agents and it did not reflect the substance of the transactions.
The then chief financial officer, under questioning last week in regard to the legality of these invoices, stated it was his view that the public had been defrauded because of the labelling of these invoices. Mr. Kelly clearly followed the instructions of Ms Geraldine O'Leary in order to, I would suggest, purposefully confuse the true nature of the invoices and what was being billed for. Would he agree with the former chief financial officer that the public was, potentially, defrauded because of the issuing of these invoices by him and the payment by RTÉ of the two €75,000 sums?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Would Mr. Kelly agree with the former chief financial officer that the taxpayer was, potentially, defrauded given no consultancy fees had been provided?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Who issued the invoices to RTÉ?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
NK Management issued invoices labelled as consultancy fees-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
-----knowing that no consultancy fees had been provided.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We can agree to suspend briefly now or take one further member's questions.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Let us take a break.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay, we will suspend for ten minutes.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will resume. In relation to checking the diary for the date of that meeting, as well as checking which members from RTÉ were present, did Mr. Kelly clarify that during the break?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What was the date?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It was 6 March. I thank Mr. Kelly. The next committee member is Deputy Verona Murphy.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Was the topic of Grant Thornton brought up Mr. Kelly?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I do not mean to cut Mr. Kelly off, but is he categorically stating that there was a discussion?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Okay. I thank Mr. Kelly. It seems a bit odd that they would have been having that discussion given Mr. Tubridy's resignation. Was it just for the remaining shows?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Was Mr. Tubridy at that meeting?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay, so it had nothing to do with it, as Mr. Kelly was categorically saying. There was no discussion.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
You will have watched all the previous engagements. For a start, I would like to say you are welcome here.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is nice you came without having to be compelled.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is not that anybody knows how to address you because everybody feels they know you, so-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is like when you call me "Deputy". We can leave all that aside as it is superfluous. The reality is that Mr. Tubridy will have seen Adrian Lynch, the interim director general, say it was possible that Mr. Tubridy did know about this prior to his announcement.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is it Mr. Tubridy's view that Mr. Lynch threw him under the bus with that connotation?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Okay. I will move to Mr. Tubridy's statement. He has outlined seven untruths. To be fair, he has come here to give his side of the story. As Deputies, we need to hear both sides and find the truth in between. Mr. Tubridy has outlined seven untruths in his statement. My question is perhaps for Mr. Kelly too. Is it the view of the two gentlemen that those untruths were intended to deceive not just the public, but also the Committee of Public Accounts, into thinking they were responsible for everything that has happened here?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
But is it Mr. Tubridy's view that those untruths were intended to deceive?
Mr. Noel Kelly:
I may not be as kind as Mr. Tubridy. There were a lot of misunderstandings. As Mr. Tubridy said at the outset, if, at the start, when we had to ask if we could get the statement, everybody had just sat down and said "What is all this?", it would have been explained. A figure of €120,000 was mentioned, but there was no €120,000. It went on and on.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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In Mr. Kelly's case, at some point Mr. Collins was asked why he did not ask questions about the invoices being raised with "consultancy fees" as the description. I do not want to misquote, but the intimation was that he was aware that Mr. Kelly and Dee Forbes had a particularly close relationship-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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-----but that is not what Mr. Kelly said earlier.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In Mr. Kelly's view, why would Mr. Collins be of that opinion-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
-----or why would he express it in that way?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is it Mr. Kelly's view that Mr. Collins intended to deceive this committee?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The notes we received, which we received late this morning, are quite comprehensive in discarding what Mr. Tubridy and Mr. Kelly believe to be untruths. My definition of an "untruth" is a lie. If it is not true, it is a lie.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Are the witnesses able to say, in their view, that RTÉ and those representing it lied to this committee?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy should be careful with her language.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I do not need to be careful because the definition of an "untruth" is-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Do Mr. Kelly or Mr. Tubridy wish to answer that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Could Mr. Kelly please repeat that?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
On that, have pre-litigation letters been issued on behalf of both Mr. Tubridy and Mr. Kelly at this point?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Not at this point. That is just for clarity.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I just want to clarify a number of issues. Mr. Kelly named Trish Whelan. Did Trish Whelan work for his office?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
And Katrina Faughnan?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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They are both in RTÉ legal. I want to go back because I have been trying to put myself in Dee Forbes's shoes for the past couple of weeks. I want the witnesses to give me an outline of the situation pre-19 December. Is there any contemporaneous note on what gave rise to that email or the meeting that took place beforehand? We start, if I am not mistaken, on 19 December, with Mr. Kelly's document on the proposed terms for a new contract. From that perspective, where was the starting point that gave rise to the €75,000 commercial relationship?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am trying in my head to figure out what it was that Mr. Kelly put to Dee Forbes that led to RTÉ, as he says, coming up with the plan or scheme to give €75,000. What gave rise to it?
Mr. Noel Kelly:
The sponsor, which was probably RTÉ's biggest sponsor, and RTÉ wanted these events. They came with the idea of the events, where and when they would happen, the mini-Late Late roadshow and the Ryan Tubridy and Renault associations. That was completely separate to Mr. Tubridy's radio and TV contract. The first three were done in year three because of Covid and contractually there are still another six owed.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Was it the position that had that €75,000 not been on the table, Mr. Tubridy would have walked from his contract?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There was no pressure put on Ms Forbes in which there was-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. Kelly did not say, "Mr. Tubridy has been offered a job at the BBC and if you do not do A, B or C-----"
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We have heard that. I am just trying to ascertain why Ms Forbes would effectively give away €75,000, which was really RTÉ's public revenue-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Those are much further on. I am trying to ascertain why she would have entered the agreement.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Why, first of all, did she give a guarantee and what was at the back of it?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Mr. Kelly to be brief because we are going over time.
Mr. Noel Kelly:
Essentially, that was in case of the sponsor changing. Again, the sponsor relationship is with RTÉ, not with us. For me, what that was about was if there was a new sponsor in during the duration of the contract, we would be able to work with the next sponsor.
It was never an RTÉ payment. It was Renault, and Renault was always paying the invoice. It was never meant to be RTÉ paying this, ever.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but it received the benefit of that €75,000 back in terms of the way the deal was constructed.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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By the way, Mr. Kelly contradicted what Ms Dee Forbes told us at the Committee of Public Accounts previously over the last few years that the reason RTÉ had to pay these fees is because the talent or stars would walk. I do not want to divert to that, however. Deputy Dillon has ten minutes.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome our witnesses and thank them for being here.
Mr. Kelly said today that Mr. Tubridy is being made the "poster boy" for this payment scandal. Why is that the case?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Kelly-----
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Kelly accept responsibility that his actions have been reckless in nature when dealing with RTÉ in this matter?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Kelly-----
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry; Mr. Kelly might let me ask the next question. Mr. Kelly is trying to put the sole blame on RTÉ here. Is that correct?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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With regard to this payment scandal.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does it not take two to tango?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Does it suit Mr. Kelly and his client to keep things ambiguous? We have heard many statements already muddying the water per se. When things become difficult, Mr. Kelly can place the blame back on RTÉ management. That is what is happening. That is what has happened in this area of the discussion.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Kelly has been engaging with RTÉ for the last 23 years, is that correct? How many people does he represent?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I want to clear up this matter of the raising of the invoices described as being for consultancy fees. Mr. Kelly stated previously that Ms Geraldine O'Leary and RTÉ were responsible.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How is that?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Mr. Kelly was following instruction.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Therefore, did he collude with RTÉ in a falsehood of concealment of those invoices by labelling them as consultancy fees? That is a straightforward question.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Kelly said he was following instruction.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Did he, therefore, collude with RTÉ in a falsehood of concealment by describing those invoices as consultancy fees?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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These were fraudulent accounting practices.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Kelly followed instruction, however. Alarm bells were never raised with him when representing his client with regard to these invoices?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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With regard to the invoices-----
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The former chief financial officer, CFO, described these as defrauding the taxpayer in his opinion. Does Mr. Kelly agree with that assessment?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Kelly still see these invoices as being related to consultancy fees?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They were as instructed. What were they for? What was the nature of them?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Did they describe what they were intended for?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Kelly accept the complete lack of credibility in invoicing a company he had never heard of in a different country for work undertaken in Dublin?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How many other deals were done by RTÉ with Mr. Kelly's business where he was asked to use a company from abroad that he had never heard of before?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Kelly is not taking any responsibility for the oversight of Mr. Tubridy's earnings with regard to what we have been told in this committee room.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Kelly taking any responsibility in respect of the oversight of the dealings with Mr. Tubridy in relation to these invoices? He said he followed instructions from RTÉ.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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His responsibility is on behalf of his client. Did he not proof-test each of the steps that were required?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Tubridy in his statement emphasised the importance of the full truth and stated that the full truth was concealed. In his opinion, and after what we have heard from Mr. Kelly, who does he believe was responsible for concealing the truth?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Tubridy think his agent colluded with RTÉ to conceal these payments?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Tubridy's earnings went up by €75,000 in 2020, credited from Renault on a side deal, and he then received another €150,000 in 2022 underwritten at the request of RTÉ.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Am I missing something here? Between April 2020 and July 2020, when we were in the middle of a pandemic, Mr. Tubridy took a 20% pay cut on his contract, which was signed on 1 April. These side deals were undertaken at a time when the country was going through huge difficulty and Mr. Tubridy feels these payments should not have been put into the public domain.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Even though RTÉ, as we have heard from Mr. Tubridy's agent, was responsible for the payment of these invoices.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Again, who suggested the side deal of any description?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The tripartite agreement.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Who wanted the underwriting in the first instance?
Mr. Noel Kelly:
The underwriting, as I said, was simply about if the sponsor changed. That is all. We never assumed RTÉ would be paying for anything. If the sponsor changed, we would be able to re-engage with the sponsor but the relationship with the sponsor is with RTÉ. We were not allowed near it. We had never worked with Renault before; we only worked with it on this.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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At the time, Mr. Tubridy looked for written assurances in respect of any further pay cuts in his 2020 contract. Did he seek a written letter regarding that?
Mr. Noel Kelly:
No, he did not; I did. Having taken a €105,000 cut per year for five years, totalling €525,000, and having not accepted the €120,000 that he was due in contract, I just said "Look, you can't." When is a contract a contract? A contract is only a contract when it is agreed and honoured on both sides.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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RTÉ claimed that it completely rejected the claim of underwriting the Renault tripartite agreement. Does Mr. Kelly accept what RTÉ said about that?
Mr. Noel Kelly:
The most important email here today is on page 10 of our book.
This is from the previous CFO. It states:
We made good progress on what the commercial agreement would be and we agree to one in Dublin and two outside Dublin [again, all from RTÉ] which are RTÉ-led LLS [The Late Late Show] events and we can provide you with a side letter to underwrite this fee for the duration of the contract.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What date is on that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy McAuliffe.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair and the witnesses. I should start by saying that the Committee of Public Accounts has a very clear remit to get to the bottom of what is happening, and certainly the witnesses' presence here today is very welcome. They have provided additional information, and I thank them for that. I also want to note that in Mr. Tubridy's opening statement, he says he has great respect for the institutions of this House. I think that statement has great credibility. I have listened to him for a long time, and I appreciate those comments.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The difficulty we have is that for whatever reason, something happened here and, essentially, RTÉ reduced its income by €75,000. In turn, €75,000 was paid to Tuttle Productions, albeit for additional duties on Mr. Tubridy's behalf. Who knew what and when is really important, because that is essentially what happened. Some €75,000 of a credit note was given to Renault. In return, €75,000 was given to Mr. Tubridy's production company, and he did additional duties. It is really important that we know who and what, and that is why some of the information he has given us is really crucial.
Mr. Tubridy said very clearly that one of the truths he wishes to list is that he is an independent contractor, and I accept that. Would Mr. Tubridy accept that this arrangement with RTÉ is not like work he has gathered from other companies, like the BBC and so on? In essence, RTÉ facilitated it. It introduced it to its clients. It was party to the agreement. The events followed the "The Late Late Show" format, which is mentioned in the agreement. RTÉ paid for the staging, the catering and so on, so it is not fair to compare this contract with other contracts that Mr. Tubridy gained entirely separately. Would he accept that?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. The suggestion is that RTÉ created this arrangement in order to bolster Mr. Tubridy's income. Does he accept that?
Mr. Ryan Tubridy:
I understand why the Deputy would say that, but I cannot accept it as a matter of fact. It is fair to say that as an independent contractor, one does different jobs for different companies. For example, I have written a couple of books, albeit a couple of kids' books. As Mr. Kelly has said, I would have done work with the BBC before. They are independent contracts. They are completely separate.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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RTÉ would not have paid for the catering at the launch of those events, provided staff or had any involvement.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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It is a fair point that Mr. Tubridy has made about being an independent contractor, but it is not necessarily a relevant point to this, because this was an arrangement created by RTÉ, at its behest, according to his evidence. It was created by RTÉ, and the net effect was that the taxpayer lost €75,000, and Mr. Tubridy gained it. Whether he knew that was happening is a different question, but that is what happened.
Mr. Noel Kelly:
I want to address the first question. As a sponsor of "The Late Late Show", Renault was perhaps the most important sponsor, of all sponsors. The fee paid by the sponsor of "The Late Late Show" would dwarf any other sponsorship that it had. RTÉ was focused on keeping Renault happy by maximising the potential of its investment in "The Late Late Show". Ms Geraldine O'Leary said when she was here the other week that, certainly during the Covid-19 pandemic, they had tickets for the audience. They had no tickets for the audience. It was said that there was a green room; there was no green room. They were trying to-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Kelly is way off point.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I put the point to Mr. Tubridy and I will put it to Mr. Kelly. Does he appreciate that RTÉ lost €75,000 in income, as a fact, and that Mr. Tubridy's production company gained €75,000 as a result of this tripartite agreement?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Kelly cannot disagree with that, because that is what actually happened.
Mr. Noel Kelly:
I know, but I want to explain from our side. The first €75,000 that was paid by Renault - not RTÉ - for the delivery of three Renault roadshows had nothing to do with Mr. Tubridy's broadcasting contract.
The amount claimed was their payment because they had issued a credit note. We had no idea about the issue of credit notes.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am not asking Mr. Kelly how it arose. I appreciate he is referring to his notes. I am not asking how it arose. Does he accept that RTÉ reduced its income from Renault by €75,000 and that Mr. Tubridy gained an additional €75,000 for additional work?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Of course, but does Mr. Kelly accept that is what happened?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am taking it that Mr. Kelly accepts those are the facts in this situation.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The crux of the problem is that this is what actually happened and we need to find out who knew that because it looks like there is an attempt to deceive.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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It is entirely likely that they do not know, but are Mr. Kelly and Mr. Tubridy both saying they were not aware that the title sponsor of "The Late Late Show" was reducing its sponsorship by €75,000?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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So that never came up. That is not part of it.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The cost-neutral nature of the agreement is really important because that is what really brings it down to the core, which is that money was taken off the books. Ms O'Leary stated in her evidence that she raised the credit note of €75,000 on the instruction of Ms Forbes, and Mr. Kelly and Mr. Tubridy are saying they had no idea of this arrangement.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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It never former part of any of the contract negotiations and so on.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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That is great. That is important to get on the table.
The difficult with that is that many of Mr. Tubridy's colleagues would have taken reductions and they would perceive this additional arrangement facilitated or arranged by RTÉ to be not in the spirit of what was happening at the time. I suppose Mr. Tubridy wanted at some point to go back into RTÉ, go into the canteen and be able to look the person serving him a cup of coffee in the eye, to talk down the microphone with a sound engineer at the other end of it and to look through the lens of a camera. He has to be able to look those people in the eye.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. However, the facts of the situation were that Mr. Tubridy received additional money and they did not.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Other reductions.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I fully accept that but the facts are before us and that is Mr. Tubridy's difficulty. It is everyone's difficulty.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I want to turn to the invoice that was raised. There is an email in Mr. Kelly's pack on page 25 which appears to be from somebody in RTÉ which reads "Do not put any person's name on the Invoice. If he sends It back to me I will then sort everything else out". Who was that email from?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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So it is from an RTÉ staff member.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Can Mr. Kelly provide the committee with the name of that person? I am happy if he wants to reflect on it.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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It looks very clear to me, as somebody responsible for public money, that when somebody says in an email not to put any person's name on the invoice, it is important for me to know who that was. I ask the witnesses to reflect on that and whether they can provide us with the name. I will ask RTÉ the same question.
The second question is that on 7 May, a Microsoft Teams meeting was held and there were four people at that meeting. Who were the four people at that meeting?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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A colleague of Mr. Kelly's. The fourth person who we have not been able to identify so far was a colleague of Mr. Kelly's. Again, this is useful information.
I then turn to the issue of the invoices. I have to question Mr. Kelly on this point because I have the invoice for the first €75,000 here and also the invoices from the other two €75,000 payments. One is raised by Mr. Kelly and the other two are by CMS Marketing.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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One contains the full description and the other two are without the full description, all relating to the same €75,000 and the arrangement with Renault. Mr. Kelly is the only one who raised these two invoices. It really strikes at the credibility of what he is saying that he treated one separately from the other. Even at RTÉ's instruction, Mr. Kelly treated these invoices separately. Would that be fair to say?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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However, the invoices were raised with Mr. Kelly.
Mr. Kelly has a fiduciary responsibility as director of his company. He raised two invoices for the same three payments. He raised them under different companies, for different reasons, and invoiced them to different people.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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This is my final point. Mr. Kelly is very clear when he says that, "I should stress that at this time we in NK Management had no idea who Astus was. We had no reason to think Astus was linked to RTE or that it was acting on behalf of RTE." Would he be surprised that his name is also mentioned elsewhere in the Astus account?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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It was the barter account. On 30 November 2018, there is a reference to €2,394 raised from a charity lunch, held by Noel Kelly in aid of Chernobyl.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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My understanding is this was obviously a fundraising lunch and I am not reflecting on the charity in any way
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps he might help us. If Mr. Kelly will tell us how that was invoiced in the past and had no connection with Astus, his story stacks up. If there is a previous invoice, and Mr. Kelly told somebody to invoice Astus for the charity lunch held, then the story does not. I do not have the facts before me; I am just asking the question.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are over time. Will Mr. Kelly briefly clarify that point for the Deputy please?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
RTÉ told the charity to invoice Astus. Mr. Kelly did not know Astus was invoiced.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I will stay where we are at the moment. I read the documents but they were too late. It was insulting to the committee and to the staff. It did not go down well. However, I found the documents quite compelling and a very strong rebuttal. Those were some of my initial thoughts. It is beginning to fall apart a bit. RTÉ and the DG are obviously watching this. The statement issued by RTÉ this morning is astonishing. If the DG is not watching this, somebody should tell him to look at whoever issued this and how it was issued. The witnesses have provided documentation, in fairness to them, relating to the side payment or side deal. The email from Breda O'Keefe in RTÉ states that "we can provide you with a side letter to underwrite this fee for the duration of the contract." That evidence is compelling to our committee. It quite obviously completely contradicts the evidence given previously by RTÉ. They are totally opposite. That is a big tick mark on the side of Mr. Tubridy and Mr. Kelly.
However, on the other side there was no 20% drop in salary, in real terms. To say so has no credibility whatsoever. It has zero credibility, given the €75,000 and the different payments. It is quite obvious it was absorbed in a different way. The second issue, which involves a huge amount of credibility, is that Mr. Kelly must have said about 15 times that he was acting under instructions from RTÉ relating to the payment processes. The first payment goes through Noel Kelly, one of his companies. That is to Renault for the first year. The second ones are to Astus through CMS. Why the switch over?
Here is the real issue. I have emails coming in to me from all of these Nigerian cousins saying I have won they lotto. They instruct me to do x,y and z. I do not do it. I think Mr. Kelly has serious accountancy issues here. I think his companies have serious accountancy issues here based on the evidence being given. This is not how companies behave. They get instructions to pay an anonymised unknown company for something that is then referred to as consultancy fees, under a contract that has been negotiated with RTÉ for private work outside, and then switches from Noel Kelly to CMS for the second and third years.
None of this is credible. It does not stand up so that is where Mr. Kelly's arguments fall down.
I want to pose some questions. Mr. Kelly mentioned Mr. Tubridy took a 20% drop in salary. I am looking for short, sharp answers purely because of time; I am not trying to be rude or anything. I think all of us here know that this is this is not accurate. Was Mr. Tubridy doing the same number of hours on all the shows? Are we comparing apples with apples and oranges with oranges? Was there a change between 2015 to 2019 and 2019 to 2023 regarding Mr. Tubridy's hours of work? We can then correlate how much of a drop in pay there really was based on hours worked.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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No, I am asking Mr. Tubridy a very simple question.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I know; it is tiresome.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Did Mr. Tubridy work the same number of hours on his radio show and TV show from 2019 to 2023 as he did per year from 2015 to 2019?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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So it the exact same.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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So Mr. Kelly did not look for any changes in the contract to reduce the number of hours or the end time
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I understand that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I know. I was on it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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My point was whether there were any changes to Mr. Tubridy's hours in actual real terms contractually and Mr. Tubridy is saying "No".
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I will return to the CMS versus NK Management issue because I was very interested in Paula Mullooly's overlap of various different emails regarding the audit that came through. She asked about the invoices on 3 May regarding the two payments of €75,000. The emails go to NK Management but the response is from CMS. The response is information from CMS. Has CMS done a large quantity of work with RTÉ separately?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Why would NK Management be swapped out and CMS put in for payment purposes and communication purposes from a corporate management point of view?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Throwing his eyes up to heaven and saying they cross over-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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From a corporate governance and an accountancy point of view-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am going to be straight. I do not buy any of that. I do not think anybody listening or watching or anybody in this room buys that. Deputies Dillon and Ó Cathasaigh went through this. This is not appropriate regarding how things should be done.
A third company called Noel Kelly Management Nominees Limited was set up and registered on 16 March 2023.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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What is the purpose of that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Fine. It has nothing to do with anything here.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is fine. From his perspective, Mr. Kelly gets advertising clients for RTÉ on the one hand while, on the other, he represents various clients as an agent to the stars or talent or whatever phrase people are using these days.
Mr. Kelly must have been doing a significant amount of business for RTÉ as regards generating advertising revenue on the one hand and negotiating fairly significant contracts for his clients who work in RTÉ on the other hand. Is that a fair statement?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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NK Management gets sponsors for RTÉ for advertising purposes for shows.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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If Mr. Kelly will not give me this information, I will ask RTÉ for information about advertising and clients for the past ten years so we will get it all.
My last three questions are for Mr. Tubridy. Earlier his representative, Mr. Kelly, stated that a contract is not a contract unless it is agreed by both parties. Where does Mr. Tubridy stand currently as regards his relationship with RTÉ? Is he employed or not? How does he perceive that?
My second question relates to one of the gigs with Renault. There was an invoice for €847 for someone to assist Mr. Tubridy. Will Mr. Tubridy throw some light on that?
This is a genuine, honest question. Toy Show, The Musicalhas been an unmitigated disaster conceptually and in every way. In fairness to Mr. Tubridy, he had zero involvement, nothing to do with it. He did not promote it and was not involved in it in any way. Did he think it was a bad idea from the outset and not want anything to do with it?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Was it for Mr. Tubridy or someone else?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The witnesses are welcome.
I will go back to the invoices. The invoices are not a creative document Mr. Kelly. They are intended to be a true record of what services were provided or what work was done. Essentially, both sides were complicit in what the chair of the board said was "an act designed to deceive". Did Mr. Kelly challenge it?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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NK Management issued the invoices.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Kelly has a few companies. He knows what it is to raise an invoice. He took instructions from RTÉ without challenging them and essentially there is a moral and legal imperative around that. I would like to ask Mr. Tubridy-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Kelly has said all of this before.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am moving on.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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"Following instructions" is known as the Nuremburg defence.
Is Mr. Tubridy happy about that kind of operation not being challenged? It was being done in his name.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is Mr. Tubridy happy with people just following instructions?
Mr. Tubridy knows what an invoice is.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is not the question.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is not the question I am asking. I want to go back to Grant Thornton's second review into the €120,000. We know there was €225,000 and that leaves €75,000. Grant Thornton is conducting another review into the €120,000 from 2017 to 2019. The witnesses are categorically saying that was simply waived. They are saying it was not paid and that RTÉ knew that. Do the witnesses have any explanation for why RTÉ would be conducting an expensive review into that?
Mr. Ryan Tubridy:
In discussions with RTÉ in March 2020, it spoke about how it would treat this in its accounts. RTÉ said that for accountancy reasons, it was going to take the €120,000 off the previous three years' contracts. That is €50,000 in year five, €50,000 in year four and €20,000 in year three. Those are extraordinary figures and we said that this did not make any sense as we had not invoiced, received or refunded the €120,000. We asked how it could be deducted and we thought it seemed mad. We thought that RTÉ's proposed treatment of this would give the impression that I was being paid €120,000 less than I was being paid. We made it clear that the €120,000 should not be taken off or deducted for prior year actual earnings, as can be seen in the booklet on pages 14 and 15. RTÉ appeared to agree with our point and it accepted our amendments in the final letter of agreement on this issue, as detailed on page 16 of the documents provided. However, on 21 and 23 January, when the salaries of the top ten earners were published, RTÉ appears to have reverted, oddly, to its original stance and deducted the €120,000 as it originally said it would. We were surprised to see that.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Tubridy opened by saying he is a contractor and we all understand-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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But RTÉ would not normally find Mr. Tubridy work as an independent contractor, and that is why this-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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This is not ordinary and that is why it is impossible for us to separate out-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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-----the difference between the Renault contract and Mr. Tubridy's salary.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It would effectively be a case of RTÉ finding work for Mr. Tubridy, where Mr. Tubridy would normally find that work himself.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Did Mr. Kelly know that Renault had insisted that the commercial agreement was done on a cost neutral basis?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Who would Mr. Kelly normally deal with when he is dealing with the contractual arrangements for his clients in RTÉ?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Kelly would not normally deal with the director general.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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So Dee Forbes was not the only one who would have been aware of all of this?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We have been told that only one person had an overview of all of this.
Mr. Noel Kelly:
She could not have been. That is why I find this whole thing so bizarre. Some of our clients might just have a one-hour radio contract, some would have a TV contract and some might have a bit of radio and a bit of TV in their contracts.
It would depend: head of TV; under-head of TV; executive; managing director, MD, of TV; MD of radio. It would just depend where it would sit, and then you would have an overall, like Alan Tyler, who, as Deputy Brady was saying, is head of entertainment.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Sorry, I have very little time.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Kelly does not operate for 1,800 people.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Kelly is an agent for a small number of people.
I refer to the Breda O'Keeffe statement last week. Ms O'Keeffe stated, "When I left in March 2020, an RTÉ guarantee on the proposed Renault agreement was not on offer, as far as I was aware." Ms O'Keeffe was linking in the Renault agreement with the salary. One can see why this keeps on coming back to the same thing. Mr. Kelly has, in his booklet on page 7, the email from Ms O'Keeffe. Was there other correspondence because this was not finalised until May? The RTÉ statement this morning is telling us that the 20 February agreement is being characterised as a contractual commitment.
Mr. Noel Kelly:
If I can explain, the whole purpose of this - it was not about contract, not a contract - was other people knew bar Dee Forbes. That is the whole point. All along, it was said to the committee the week before last - central to this - nobody else knew. There was no secret. This is the secret piece. There was no secret whatsoever. There was no secret.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Given all Mr. Tubridy has listened to over the past few weeks, he says he wants to go back and work on the radio. Looking at it from his perspective, that appears to come across as strange given all the issues that he has documented in his booklet and the opening statement.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Wanting to go back to an organisation that Mr. Tubridy obviously feels has badly damaged him.
Mr. Ryan Tubridy:
I have been badly damaged by the last three weeks, but not necessarily by RTÉ as an institution. There are people that I am dying to get back to work with. Like most decent Irish people, they are in there making an honest living and they are working hard to pull together the shows, and I want to be back with them. I had my beef with some people there, as is obvious in the documents, but I still see my future there.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome both witnesses. It is important to reference that they were not compelled to be here which is obviously welcome.
The first question I have for Mr. Tubridy is: when he has a major guest coming on the show, how long does it take him to prepare for that?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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No, come on. It is a good question. How long does it take Mr. Tubridy to prepare for a major act coming on "The Late Late Show"?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. This is a 39-page document. For people who are not aware what it looks like, this document was provided to us this morning. This came into our Microsoft Teams accounts this morning at 8.23 a.m., if I am correct. It has 39 pages. The meeting commenced at 10.30 a.m. in private session. That is not much time to go through 39 pages like this.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Can Mr. Tubridy accept - just one second-----
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Can Mr. Tubridy accept how it is not physically possible for anybody here to comprehensively go through that information?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Unfortunately-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Just briefly.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Just briefly.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate Mr. Tubridy's apology and accept it. Purely from a human perspective, I think all of us here understand this is difficult. We are politicians. We know what it is like to be dragged through the ringer.
Unfortunately, this is the next point of questioning I wanted to come to anyway. Mr. Tubridy has moved on to that properly. The reason this has erupted is the work that was done by the audit report that identified the pay arrangements that we have discussed with the executive board of RTÉ.
I just want to get a clear picture. When did Mr. Tubridy first become aware of the issues that were brought to light through the audit that was carried out? When did he first get knowledge of that audit being carried out?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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To clarify, it is a really important question. I am not trying to trip Mr. Tubridy up.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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When did Mr. Tubridy become aware that that report was being carried out?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Pardon me. I am sorry.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking about the report that was carried out.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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When did Mr. Tubridy become aware of the Grant Thornton report?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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So 26 June 2023 was the very first time that he had knowledge-----
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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-----that the Grant Thornton report was being done. I ask the same question of Mr. Kelly. Obviously, if Grant Thornton was delving into the pay arrangements, in relation to which it did highlight concerns, was it the same for him?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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That was on 23 May. Is that correct?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Was that the first time documents were requested from Mr. Kelly's company in relation to Mr. Tubridy's pay?
Mr. Noel Kelly:
On 3 May, RTÉ legal emailed us and asked us about invoice queries. On 26 May, RTÉ legal wrote to us and said that Grant Thornton was investigating the process. On 31 May, we met with Grant Thornton and discussed everything with it. On 23 June, RTÉ released its first statement and we only received the report on 26 June. We did not get a copy of the report.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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When did Mr. Kelly first alert Mr. Tubridy that the report was being carried out and that he may have had concerns?
Mr. Noel Kelly:
On 22 June, when the statement came out from RTÉ and the report was released. We did not even have the report. That happened on the Thursday. It was four days later before the correction was put in saying that there was no wrongdoing on behalf of Ryan Tubridy or us. At that stage, Mr. Tubridy was off air. How should I put this? Had they not been so hasty or that there was-----
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking the question for Mr. Tubridy's own benefit. I know he may feel that I am being in some way indignant, but I am not.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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The reason I am asking is that it is crucial to us understanding and verifying that the information is correct-----
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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-----and it was nothing to do with his decision to step down from "The Late Late Show". That is why I am asking that.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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No, that is clarified. I am content with that.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I want to move on to the deal surrounding Renault. The first year of the deal was 2021. Is that correct?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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At what stage was Mr. Kelly informed that Renault did not want to continue with its part of the deal following the outbreak of the pandemic, that it was withdrawing and that, subsequently, RTÉ was stepping in and providing the funding to fill the gap?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I mentioned stepping back from the arrangement. As we have discussed already, that €75,000 was paid by RTÉ. Is that correct?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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In the latter half of the arrangement, where Mr. Tubridy was not participating-----
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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They were paid by Astus.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Effectively, that is what we need to get an understanding of. What work was done in return for that in the later years, during the pandemic and in 2022?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Kelly is telling me that those roadshows are owed effectively-----
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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-----and they will have to be done subsequently.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Tubridy was paid in advance.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I must ask, from the point of view of reputational damage, which I think is key, did Mr. Tubridy not assess this going into the pandemic? We all know how difficult it was, and Mr. Tubridy broadcast throughout it, with great admiration and respect from the population. Did he in any way say to himself that this is a dangerous situation because the published figures pertaining to his salary that had been published in the newspapers - the Irish Independentwas publishing those figures - were not reflective of his actual take-home pay? I have heard the evidence that Mr. Tubridy provided and what he has said. At the end of the day, there was a tripartite agreement involving the national broadcaster, RTÉ, with Renault and yourselves. Did Mr. Tubridy not ask himself that maybe it was just not wise for him to be taking this money at that point in time, considering what was going on in the country?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Tubridy never asked any questions in regard to that.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Hang on a second. To be fair, my line of questioning is reflecting that. I am just asking, in relation to the outbreak of Covid, was it really necessary that this arrangement, in some shape or form, remained in place. Ultimately, the taxpayers’ money involved in RTÉ as an organisation was being used to supplement Mr. Tubridy's income. That is the perception we need to deal with.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Those services were not provided but the payment was made.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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We know that.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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On the negotiations around pay, this is important because we discussed it with the RTÉ executive board. They were not very forthcoming with answers and now there is a very wide chasm between the information Mr. Tubridy and Mr. Kelly have provided us with today and what the board have given us previously. Who in the executive board of RTÉ was involved in those pay negotiations?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, who was present and involved?
Mr. Noel Kelly:
Again, the head of TV and the head of radio would say, “Right, we want these hours, we want those hours” and they would then discuss that with the CFO and the relevant accountants. As I said, there are lots of accountants and lawyers and everything else. They would all have their conversations and then they would come back. My job is to get the best deal for my client.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, but Mr. Kelly did not answer my question. Who was present from the executive board of RTÉ for these negotiations?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I see Mr. Kelly has been handed a document. He may take a moment to read it.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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My time is up. I may come back in subsequently.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have to finish at 2 p.m. I have some questions. The number of presenters Mr. Kelly represents at RTÉ is three of the top ten. How many people engaged with RTÉ does he represent in total at RTÉ?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it 20?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it ten?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not want to delay the meeting. I am asking a straight question.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many roughly? Is it a dozen?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it six?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How would you describe your trade?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Your own trade, your background. Are you a negotiator? Are you a consultant? What type of work have you done throughout your life?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Sales.
Mr. Noel Kelly:
And sales. I see people as brands. It is how you take a young talent. Talent, to me, is the person behind reception, like today - the people who make us feel welcome when we come in - that is a talent. It is the camera people, the floor people. Talent, to me, is not a rock god. It is not a singer or Tom Cruise, or stuff.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will all agree on that one. Mr. Kelly comes from a sales background. Is that correct?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What kind of goods did he sell? What kind of marketing was he involved in before he got involved with RTÉ, 23 years ago?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What was Mr. Kelly selling for Cadbury?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you. That is fine.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Senior staff at RTÉ have described Mr. Kelly as having a very close relationship with Ms Dee Forbes.
Mr. Noel Kelly:
Yes, I saw that. That might be the case if a close relationship were one in a room with lawyers and accountants and not a cup of tea between us, and never having met for lunch or dinner. I do not know the lady. I have always found her to be terribly professional and hardworking during Covid and everything else. I would only ever meet Dee Forbes if there were an impasse in respect of a contract, regarding where we were at or what we could do. I do not know her. I have met her, just as I am meeting the committee members today.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not want to be disrespectful to Mr. Kelly, but he comes from a background selling chocolate and is now negotiating on behalf of the top stars in the country. He has had great success at that. How deals are done is a fascinating subject in a lot of people's minds. What does Mr. Kelly's leverage when negotiating derive from? RTÉ has previously told this committee that Mr. Tubridy and other popular stars who are very good at their job would walk. Mr. Kelly has said today that is not the case. Where does that leverage come from?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I accept that. Where does the leverage come from?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will cut to the chase. Anybody who has ever done a bit of wheeling and dealing will know this. When someone is sitting in a negotiation, it is about whoever blinks first. If Mr. Kelly is negotiating with the top financial people, the legal people or the director general, where does his leverage derive from? There is a clear contradiction when it comes to his position. He comes from a background of sales and selling chocolate. I am not being derisory about that and fair play to him for having worked his way up, but where does the leverage come from? Mr. Kelly is not giving me an answer to that question.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Where does Mr. Kelly's bargaining power come from? You need bargaining power when you are wheeling and dealing and involved in negotiations. Mr. Kelly is involved in serious negotiations-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will clarify. Mr. Kelly knows what I am talking about here. He is involved in serious negotiations on behalf of stars. I ask him not to minimise this.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Where do the leverage and power derive?
Mr. Noel Kelly:
Yes, the teams are hugely important. It is a jigsaw of talent. Over those six years, Ryan Tubridy brought in €100 million in commercial revenue. In fairness, it was a hugely successful commercial operation. In 2021, RTÉ took in €148 million purely in commercial and not from the licence fee. It is a big-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Kelly has outlined that well and I thank him for that. According to some of the documents, it seems that Mr. Kelly has significant influence and power in terms of negotiating at RTÉ. It has been said to me more than once over the years that he is the real director general at RTÉ. Does that have any basis in fact? It has been said not by somebody on the street corner but by people who work at RTÉ.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Could I move to one of those deals for a moment? I refer to the tripartite deal between Mr. Kelly and Mr. Tubridy, Renault and RTÉ. It was a one-year deal from October 2020 to December 2021. We have been told from the start that it was a three-year deal, but it was not a three-year deal. It is here in front of me. I have it here. I read it carefully: that it was intended to be a three-year deal, but that is not seen in the contract anywhere. It is nowhere in the contract.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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But it is not in the contract.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Could I ask Mr. Kelly this? He is used to signing contracts. Why did he expect RTÉ to underwrite the deal for three years when it was only a one-year deal?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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But why did Mr. Kelly expect that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Legally, Mr. Kelly was signing the deal. He knows that unless it is nailed down in the contract and signed on the dotted line, it does not stand for anything. Is that not correct? He knows that. He could not say, legally, the deal was for three years.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. Kelly tell me why is there no figure mentioned in the contract? There is no figure of €75,000 per annum mentioned. Why is that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Kelly rubbished the side letter earlier on. He minimised the side letter earlier on in the meeting. The primary document is the tripartite agreement. Here we have a document with no figure mentioned in it; which was not signed up for a three-year deal, but Mr. Kelly is working on the basis that it is for a three-year deal.
The other question I want to ask Mr. Kelly is this - I have not heard a clear explanation for this – why was this contract only signed on 21 April this year when the 10-10-20 hit the fan?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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A working document?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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A working document?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Kelly is asking me, the committee, and the public to believe here today that he entered into an agreement that was not signed until this year; and that it was to run for three years, without having it nailed down legally and without the signature of his agency on it? That is cock and bull.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not care where it came from. Mr. Kelly is a professional agent. People say he is very successful at it. Does he mean to tell me that he entered into this arrangement without it being tied down for three years, because that is the effect of it? Mr. Kelly did not sign it. Niamh McCormack signed it on 21 April 2023 on behalf of Mr. Kelly and Mr. Tubridy. RTÉ never signed it. There is no RTÉ signature on it.
Let me just say this to Mr. Kelly. What is also incredible is the second last line in the agreement says: "Once signed by all parties, this agreement will constitute a legally binding document and it is acknowledged that there is a valid consideration for this agreement." That is once it is signed by all parties. Is Mr. Kelly telling me he went along on a wing and a prayer with four major faults in this: no signatures - not signed; signed this year; no figures mentioned in it; and not a three-year deal? Mr. Kelly was happy as a professional agent to sign off on this. He is asking me to believe that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Kelly and I know that you do not enter into agreements or contracts on the basis of a document like that. He knows that. Am I not correct in saying that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not care who brokered it. Mr. Kelly is telling me that he went along for three years on a wing and a prayer. That is what he is expecting us to believe here today-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not believe that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not believe him.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not care what was pushed out. There was nothing to stop the contract from coming in an envelope and for it to be signed. It could have been sent by courier to Mr. Kelly, and he could have signed it, back at that time, but he did not, and the figures were not in it. The three-year dimension was not in it. They are the facts. That deal is not credible the way it was framed.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Kelly.
We have gone through a lot of questions and we must finish because, in fairness to the two witnesses, they have come voluntarily and they have gone through three hours of questioning. Mr. Tubridy will be facing three more hours in the afternoon, so I want to be fair to him. He needs a break of an hour. I thank the witnesses for attending. I also want to thank the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, and his staff for attending. Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and briefing material provided for today's meeting? Agreed. I know they were long statements, but I wanted the witnesses to be able to read out their side of it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That was important.
Mr. Ryan Tubridy:
Gabh mo leithscéal, before I go, can I briefly say that I thank the committee for the courtesy they afforded us with their questions today? I am sure there are more pressing issues in the world but, at the same time, that is not to belittle what we were talking about today. I thank the committee members for their time.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I personally thank the witnesses for attending. They have probably heard me many times being quoted as saying that is really important to hear from the witnesses and to get them before the committee.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I want to thank them for their co-operation. The meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts is adjourned until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 13 July.