Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses to the meeting this afternoon. I remind all those in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are on silent or switched off. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that the witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

A number of witnesses today are giving their evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts. As such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings. Those witnesses have been advised of this and may think it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter.

Witnesses participating in this committee session from a jurisdiction outside the State will have already been advised that they should be mindful of their domestic law and how it may apply to the evidence they give. Their decision on whether they take legal advice on the evidence they propose to give should also be informed by this.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise to engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

This afternoon we are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied by Mr. Andrew Harkness, director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This afternoon we are engaging with RTÉ and the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media to examine matters relating to the appropriation of public moneys to RTÉ and the expenditure by RTÉ of such public moneys. Additionally the committee wishes to discuss commercial arrangements entered into by RTÉ and its presenters, including those underwritten by RTÉ which have impacted on and relate to the expenditure of public moneys. These matters for discussion have arisen in the context of recent and ongoing revelations regarding RTÉ's payment of presenters and how this was previously presented to the Oireachtas.

The terms of reference of the Committee of Public Accounts have been extended to give us increased powers to examine these issues. We have also been given powers of compatibility to invite people who are not here today. I want to put members and witnesses on notice that the committee has agreed to ask Ms Dee Forbes to attend when it is medically appropriate for her to do so. In the near future we will seek the go-ahead for this through the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight of the Houses of the Oireachtas. We wish Ms Forbes well and we wish her a speedy recovery.

RTÉ and the Department have been advised of the areas of focus for the committee. These are the appropriation of public moneys by the Department to RTÉ and the oversight of same by the Department; payment to RTÉ presenters, specifically from 2017 to date, and how these payments were accounted for in the RTÉ accounts; the oversight mechanisms for such payments, in particular but not limited to payments to Ryan Tubridy; the process relating to the cost-neutral nature of the Renault agreement, including the persons responsible for signing off on it; the specifics of what led to the agreement to underwrite the commercial arrangement with Renault and Ryan Tubridy, and the details of the RTÉ policy relating to such underwriting of these agreements, RTÉ's policy regarding the operation of barter accounts, why they are used and what oversight there is in RTÉ regarding such accounts; and the discrepancies between previous assurances given to the Committee of Public Accounts by RTÉ on matters which are now in the public domain.

We have a long list of witnesses. We are joined by Mr. Adrian Lynch, interim deputy director general; Ms Geraldine O'Leary, director of commercial; Ms Paula Mullooly, director of legal affairs; Mr. Rory Coveney, director of strategy; Mr. Richard Collins, chief financial officer; Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh, chairperson of the board; Ms Anne O'Leary, chair of the audit and risk committee; and Mr. Robert Shortt, member of the audit and risk committee and RTÉ staff representative on the board.

We are also joined by Dr. PJ Matthews, RTÉ board member, via Microsoft Teams. I understand that Dr. Matthews would have been on the board over the past five or six years. We are also joined by the following individuals from RTÉ: Ms Moya Doherty, the former chairperson of the RTÉ board; and Mr. Willie O'Reilly, former director of commercial at RTÉ, who is joining us via Microsoft Teams. We are joined by the following representatives from the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media: Ms Katherine Licken, Secretary General; and Ms Tríona Quill, assistant secretary, broadcasting and media. We are ready to start so I ask Ms Ní Raghallaigh to make her opening statement.

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus leis na baill as an deis labhairt leo. At the outset, I reiterate our profound regret regarding what has emerged in recent days. We know that RTÉ fell far short of the standards expected of us as an organisation. We know this represents an egregious breach of trust with the public, for which we apologise.

I am particularly aware of the remit of the Committee of Public Accounts in ensuring accountability and transparency in how public bodies like RTÉ allocate, spend and manage their finances. The committee is charged with ensuring that the taxpayer receives value for money for every euro spent by such bodies. Given the committee's mission of guardianship of the public purse, the failures that have come to light on RTÉ's part must be truly shocking to it, as they are to me. That was a breach of trust with the elected members of the Committee of Public Accounts, which has a central role in Irish public life, and this is something for which we sincerely apologise. We are completely committed to rebuilding trust with the committee and with other public representatives. This is the least we can do.

We also welcome the role that the Committee of Public Accounts has been afforded to examine expenditure by RTÉ and we will work closely with the committee in this regard. As a trained accountant and a former financial controller, I am appalled as to how payments were recorded and presented in the RTÉ accounts. What was the motivation here? It appears to me that this was an act designed to deceive. The forthcoming external Government review will look at matters of culture and governance, and this is welcome, but in the short term that is not enough. Every day that passes further erodes confidence in an institution that is a cornerstone of this State. The RTÉ board is the governing authority of RTÉ and the role of the board is to guide the corporate direction and strategy of RTÉ and represent the interests of viewers, listeners and staff, ensuring that RTÉ fulfils its statutory responsibilities in an efficient and effective manner.

We work independently of the executive board. As such the board of RTÉ is taking a lead in driving the following five objectives, supported by outside expertise as required. First is establishing the facts. From the moment the board was informed of a potential problem, we have worked to establish the facts. Within days of receiving the first Grant Thornton report, we published the details. We have since published the first Grant Thornton report and we commit to publishing the second Grant Thornton report as soon as possible. Accountants from Grant Thornton are currently on site in RTÉ. The board and I would also urge Dee Forbes to appear before this committee when she is able to do so.

Second is cultural transformation. Yesterday at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media, I stated that in an organisation culture comes from the top down. The culture of an organisation permeates its leadership and decision-making processes. RTÉ produces excellent journalism and creative content but specific cultural issues around information silos and domineering hierarchies that shun transparency and foster bureaucracy are all too evident. The board will lead on addressing this.

Third is internal controls. This series of events has revealed grave failings in internal controls at RTÉ. Nothing less than an overhaul of such controls and work practices will suffice, and the board will oversee this process. Fourth is examining how RTÉ spends its money. We need to stand back and examine how RTÉ manages its money. This should start with a review of the highest-paid in the organisation. We will also look at those areas in which expenditure can be strengthened in pursuit of public service broadcasting, such as RTÉ’s digital capabilities. Fifth is the future strategy. The crisis has placed RTÉ in a dangerous place. The board, working with the organisation, will map out a future strategy to bring this organisation to a safer haven, an organisation that delivers the best in public service broadcasting, trusted by the public and employees alike. We need to strike that careful balance in achieving an organisation that can blend the agility needed to provide a public broadcasting service in an ever-changing market, while also having the controls and governance standards of an entity funded by the taxpayer.

I want to say something about the use of the word "talent". Words matter and the term, as it is currently used, reinforces a "them and us" culture in RTÉ. It implies some have greater worth than others. The first step in cultural change is to consign this term to the dustbin. I wish to restate the fact that more than 1,800 people work for RTÉ and I apologise to each and every one of them for the distress they are experiencing. Together we have a job of work to do to restore their confidence.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that Mr. Lynch wishes to make a brief statement.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

As interim deputy director general of RTÉ I concede that as an executive we failed in our collective responsibility around the events leading to the misstatement of payments to Ryan Tubridy. I wish to state again our deep regret for what has emerged in recent days. For this serious breach of trust with the public, we apologise. It is a fact that the application of Government procedures at an executive board level allowed for the partial and incomplete sharing of information so that individual members of the executive either did not have access to information or had information withheld from them. It is true that the executive board failed in its collective responsibility to act as a collective and failed to ensure good governance in this matter. Collectively, owing to the silent style of the procedures at the executive and an over-reliance on the prerogative asserted by the director general, we did not receive a comprehensive evaluation of Ryan Tubridy’s contract in full, including the way in which the payments were to be treated. We acknowledge and accept this failure, specifically by those members of the executive who were aware of the contract. I have spoken to Kevin Bakhurst last night and I understand from him that his first task when he begins on 10 July will be a complete reconstitution of the executive board of RTÉ.

Ms Katherine Licken:

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus le comhaltaí an choiste as an deis a thabhairt dom an ráiteas seo a dhéanamh. Public service broadcasting, as has been reiterated on numerous occasions in the last week, plays a critical role in informing, educating and entertaining the public. Critically also, it holds to account those in positions of responsibility and power. It is also frequently at the forefront in tackling misinformation. That is why, as the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, and her colleagues in government have repeatedly emphasised over the past week, there is a need for RTÉ to show appropriate leadership and give a full account of all of the circumstances that led to the making of these payments and the understatement of earnings.

The Department is working intensively to support the Minister in ensuring that the governance structures and culture that enabled this issue to arise, are comprehensively addressed. In that regard, the Department and the Minister are engaging with RTÉ on the steps it is taking to deal with the matter in order to provide full clarification on all aspects of these transactions, including the timely completion of the Grant Thornton review into the payments between 2017 and 2019.

The Department is also working intensively with the Minister on the development of the terms of reference of the external review into governance and culture at RTÉ, which the Minister announced in recent days. This review will focus on whether RTÉ's governance framework is fit for purpose and in line with best governance practice in commercial Stater bodies, taking account of broadcasting legislation, the requirements of the code of practice for the governance of State bodies and the findings from the various Grant Thornton reviews commissioned by RTÉ. The review will also consider RTÉ's organisational culture, the impact that culture has had on levels of trust, governance, transparency and communications, and what changes should be made. As part of this process, the Department is supporting the Minister in her engagement with key stakeholders, including representatives from the National Union of Journalists and Screen Producers Ireland, with whom we met yesterday. The details of the terms of reference are currently being finalised and will be published once they are approved by the Government.

As I have said, public service broadcasting is critical to the proper functioning of our society. RTÉ plays a central role in that regard. It is in the interests of us all that the issues at RTÉ are addressed in a comprehensive and effective manner. As the Minister has stated, the organisation has been badly damaged by the revelations over the past week. It is vital that public confidence in RTÉ is restored. I thank the committee for allowing me to make this statement. I am happy to answer any questions members have.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Licken. I will now take questions from members, starting with Deputy O'Connor. He has 15 minutes, with all other speakers having ten minutes each.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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We all stand in solidarity with the ordinary workers in RTÉ, recognising how disappointed and let down they all are. That has been acknowledged here today but, ultimately, this is about responsibility and accountability. That is what we need to get to the bottom of today.

There are a number of points in the opening statement by the chairperson that contradict what has gone on within the organisation over the past number of years. The chairperson is not alone in that. She is joined by the former chairperson. It is an inescapable fact that the issues have been going on for some years. We need to speak to the former director general when she is in a state to speak to us. We acknowledge that she is unwell and wish her well in her recovery. It is imperative that such engagement happens. In the engagement at yesterday's meeting of the joint committee, significant blame was laid at that particular door. We are unable at this time to get answers to the questions that have been raised but we will do so when the opportunity arises.

In terms of rebuilding public confidence, the first question I have for Ms Ní Raghallaigh relates to the pay of the executive board of RTÉ. Is that something she will look at? Can she furnish the committee with details of the earnings of each member of the board in time for next week's meeting?

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

As I said, one of the first things we are looking at is the salaries of, and payments to, the top earners in RTÉ, which would include members of the executive board. In terms of publishing those figures, it certainly is something we are considering to be done. It was discussed yesterday at the joint Oireachtas committee.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It is not enough to consider doing it. The figures need to be published in full. Nothing else, frankly, is going to rebuild the public's trust in Ms Ní Raghallaigh's organisation. We need to know precisely how much money each member of the board has earned. In addition, details of the top 100 earners within the organisation should be made public. That is absolutely imperative.

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

I undertake to do that.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Ní Raghallaigh intends to do that.

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

Yes.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Does she have a timeline for the implementation of such a decision and when the public and this committee will be made aware of it?

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

It will be done as soon as practically possible in terms of being able to extract the information and make it available to the committee.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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We welcome that decision. We have arrived at this position as a consequence of the €350,000 in additional non-declared payment made to Mr. Tubridy between 2017 and 2022. We need to get to the bottom of how those arrangements were negotiated. Who were the participants in those negotiations? I understand these decisions were taken by the director general. Are there other members of the executive committee who participated in such negotiations who are present here today?

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

That is correct.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Will Ms Ní Raghallaigh identify them?

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

They would not necessarily have all the information. Mr. Lynch would have had some of the information. There are people who are not here who would have had the information. The director of content would have had some of the information. The chief financial officer, Mr. Collins, would have had some of the information. Ms O'Leary-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Does Ms Ní Raghallaigh not see even from her reply to my question, which is quite a simple question, just how much of a mess has been created from a governance perspective?

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

I agree. That is why we are here. It is because there is that mess.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Is it correct that the Renault deal first came into being in 1998?

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

I defer to Ms O'Leary on that question.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Renault had an ongoing sponsorship arrangement with RTÉ's commercial division. The first connection with RTÉ and any talent contract or any commercial client with a talent contract was at the end of February 2020, when I was advised by the then CFO that the contract negotiations with Ryan Tubridy were finishing, were being put in place for the following four to five years - it changed but it was four at the time - that there was going to be a commercial element and that they would talk to me about it. I was not brought in when the contract was being done. I subsequently was advised by the director general that the idea behind the commercial deal was that I would talk to the sponsor about including some personal appearances by Ryan Tubridy as part of the overall Renault relationship with RTÉ.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Tubridy the only presenter within RTÉ that was receiving money as a consequence of Renault's deals with the organisation?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Yes.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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He was the only person?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Yes.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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No previous presenters involved in any RTÉ shows were benefactors of that?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

To repeat, I am in RTÉ since 1997 and I have never before been across any element of a talent contract.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Let us proceed to the decision, when that deal come to a conclusion, whereby RTÉ subsequently stepped forward to supplement Mr. Tubridy's salary by way of a very confidential arrangement. That is probably the most politically correct phrase I could use. Does Ms O'Leary believe that was appropriate?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Just to be correct, I spoke to Renault about year one only. There is some suggestion that Renault did not renew. We only spoke to Renault about year one. In year two, there was-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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For the public's knowledge, what was the amount of money in year one?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

The amount of money in year one was €75,000 paid for three appearances by Ryan Tubridy, which subsequently happened in 2022 because of Covid.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I am going to ask Ms O'Leary again the question I already asked. Does she think what happened following on from that, whereby RTÉ stepped in with a confidential arrangement involving figures that were not made public, was appropriate?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

I was not aware that the figures were not going to be made public.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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To be fair, I am not asking Ms O'Leary whether she was aware of that. I am asking whether she thinks this was an appropriate arrangement.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

In hindsight, no.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It is good to know that. Going back to Ms Ní Raghallaigh, who was aware of the figures? She said there are people in this room who would have had some knowledge of what went on.

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

Yes, that is what I said.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

I can answer that. Typically, how talent contracts are negotiated is that they are led by the CFO, with input from legal. Then, regarding the hours and services provided, I would input into that. In terms of talent choices, the director of content would input into that. In terms of Ryan Tubridy's deal and who was aware of it, regarding the terms of the deal and how much he would be paid, the director of content, the CFO, legal, the director general and I would be the people who would be aware.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Lynch feel he has misled the public in a very underhand way that has had massive repercussions for the reputation of the organisation and the individuals involved, including the fact the director general is now gone? What does he think of what has been achieved?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

The information I was provided with was that there was going to be a sponsorship arrangement whereby Ryan Tubridy would be paid if it was enacted and then there was his standard contract. Things progressed and then, obviously, there was a further commercial undertaking given that if the sponsorship contract was not enacted, RTÉ would underwrite the contract. If the Deputy remembers, that was during the Covid period and it was very difficult to enact the sponsorships.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Half the country's employment positions were potentially impacted by the Covid-19 pandemic. I do not need to lecture anybody here about how difficult that was for everybody, no matter what role in Irish society they occupied from an employment perspective. RTÉ saw fit, in the middle of a pandemic, to contrive some type of scheme in order to maintain the pay - privately, in unpublished figures - of someone who was already one of the biggest earners in the organisation.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

At the point at which RTÉ paid Ryan Tubridy, that should have been declared.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It is all well and good to say that now, but why did RTÉ not do that originally?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

What occurred in this instance was that the sponsorship agreement involved three events, which would happen publicly, so there was nothing-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously, they could not proceed on account of Covid-19. Is that correct?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Correct, so at that point in time-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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So RTÉ came in with the public purse and filled in the gap. That is what happened.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Correct.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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That is appalling.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

It is absolutely appalling. I totally agree. I had no knowledge that RTÉ had directly paid Ryan Tubridy.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Who had?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

I have looked at the correspondence and spoken to each individual executive board member over the past seven days, since this blew up. From what I can see, there was a commercial decision made on 7 May 2020 between the director general and NK Management that this contract would be underwritten. That is the only evidence I can see of a commitment. That was given then, and that commitment-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I will ask the witnesses the question again. Who among the organisation and the employees of RTÉ was aware?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

From everything I have seen, the director general was aware because she had given this undertaking to NK Management that if the sponsorship deal did not happen, RTÉ would pay the bill.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Coveney sit in on meetings with the director general when there are negotiations in relation to the pay of RTÉ's top stars?

Mr. Rory Coveney:

No, I do not. I have no role to play at all in the negotiation of top talent contracts and never did. They are not part of my role.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the commercial activity relating to RTÉ, Mr. Coveney would have had a significant lead on a number of projects undertaken by the organisation. Is that not correct?

Mr. Rory Coveney:

That is true.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Questions were put to RTÉ yesterday by the Chairperson of the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media, Deputy Niamh Smyth, about the figures around the profitability of a commercial undertaking by RTÉ, namely "Toy Show The Musical". Can the witnesses give us the figures as to how profitable that undertaking was?

Mr. Rory Coveney:

We have already shared substantial information with the committee about the problems of the project, the rationale for the project-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I watched yesterday's proceedings. The witnesses did not share such information.

Mr. Rory Coveney:

We have made a substantial submission to this committee about the project, the rationale for it, the gestation, the research that went into it-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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What was the outcome of that?

Mr. Rory Coveney:

Not great, to be honest, but I-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Are you in a position to inform us what the losses were?

Mr. Rory Coveney:

Not at the moment. We-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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When will you be able to do so?

Mr. Rory Coveney:

We entered into a whole series of commercial relationships in relation to this project which are sensitive, with third parties involved. We are happy to look again to see what we can share and come back to the committee in due course.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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My understanding is that it was an unmitigated disaster. Is that accurate?

Mr. Rory Coveney:

It was not successful, but it was always envisaged to be a multi-annual project. We have decided not to proceed with it this year. We are looking at other options for it into the future and we do not want to compromise our capacity to negotiate with third parties in relation to those arrangements in the future.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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When it comes to accountability for money that is squandered within RTÉ, do the witnesses accept, on foot of the information that has come to light, that the structures of payment within the organisation are nowhere near fit for purpose? Look at the number of agency staff being employed, the key stars, the highest earners and the power Mr. Kelly had over RTÉ as an organisation. What stopped RTÉ from saying to the individuals involved that this was probably not tenable to continue with and that it wanted to fill its prime slots with people who have full-time roles and are hired within RTÉ's structure itself rather than allowing these agents to have such bartering power?

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

I do not disagree with the Deputy there. I think - I know - that is the way we have to go.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Did the board of RTÉ never have this conversation? How did we get to this position where, ultimately, a PR catastrophe is the cause of our now having this conversation? Did the executive board of RTÉ not recognise before now that one individual had pretty much godlike power when it came to the presenters who were being allowed airtime on our most significant broadcaster?

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

Correct, and that is what we are looking at as to whether we continue to deal with agents.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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What is RTÉ going to do going forward from here?

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

That is what I am talking about. I called out the five pillars: reviewing the internal controls; establishing the facts, which we have done, and the audit and risk committee has a role in that regard; cultural transformation; examining how the money is spent, and under that one would be looking at items such as those that have been raised here today, and-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I must ask about the Grant Thornton report currently being prepared by the RTÉ board for the audit and risk committee. This is an ongoing mess, and more information is coming to light with each day that goes by. Does RTÉ have the scope to allow for the extension of that report to include information that may come to light in the coming weeks?

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

Just to clarify, is the Deputy talking about the report that is currently under way?

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The second report.

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

I will let Ms O'Leary take that, but just to point out this-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. The time is limited.

Ms Anne O'Leary:

Just in order that members are all aware, they have to remember that this was all initiated when the auditor, Deloitte, came to me and said there was a problem. We had a look at the problem and came back. The auditor said he was unhappy and he advised me to get forensic accountants in. As a result we immediately went to Grant Thornton and started this process and then gave the report. This is an example of the board and the audit and risk committee actually doing their job. We have now extended the terms of reference, and when they finish this one we have another job of work for them to do. So the answer to the Deputy's question is "Yes". We will extend the terms of reference of the Grant Thornton team.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In conclusion, I think that on foot of the-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Very briefly.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, very briefly, and it is a conclusion. On foot of what that Taoiseach has said this afternoon and what the Chairperson of the media committee, Deputy Niamh Smyth, said yesterday, it is important now, given all this information and the lack of information the witnesses are able to provide in answer to the questions, that Ryan Tubridy be invited to appear before this committee as well as Mr. Kelly.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Deputy Munster.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My first question is for Mr. Collins. He was asked yesterday if he was aware of the problem with the invoices and he said no. About an hour later into the meeting the committee got the truth from him that he was actually aware of the issue in early March. He had previously said he was not aware of it before 17 March. He said that Deloitte had spoken to him, had flagged up concerns and was seeking an explanation, and that he spoke to the director general following that and then was to get back to Deloitte. Can he tell us what the conversation with the director general was and what she actually told him about the invoices? What explanation did she give?

Mr. Richard Collins:

Sure. On 7 March Deloitte approached me, which would be normal. I would not be involved in the detail of the audit, but at the end of the audit if there were issues outstanding, they would approach me. They raised the issue of these invoices there and they asked me what they were for. I undertook then to speak to the director general about them. I asked the director general what they were for. She told me they were consultancy invoices relating to Noel Kelly Management and I relayed that back to Deloitte.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When she said they were consultancy invoices relating to Noel Kelly-----

Mr. Richard Collins:

Consultancy invoices relating to services during Covid that Noel Kelly had provided.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Collins asked what those services were.

Mr. Richard Collins:

I did, at a high level.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What did she say?

Mr. Richard Collins:

The services related to how RTÉ restructured its operations-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Noel Kelly-----

Mr. Richard Collins:

Yes, to help with-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----was giving RTÉ advice.

Mr. Richard Collins:

Yes, he was.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In what capacity?

Mr. Richard Collins:

He was giving advice to RTÉ as to how we dealt with sponsors.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Collins is being a bit vague.

Mr. Richard Collins:

To be honest, I got a high-level response from the director general. Deloitte was not happy with the response I was given, and I cannot and will not go there because-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I just want Mr. Collins to explain that because Noel Kelly was advising RTÉ on how to deal with agents during Covid-----

Mr. Richard Collins:

During Covid.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And he was getting a €75,000 fee for that. What advice did he give?

Mr. Richard Collins:

I do not know exactly what advice-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Oh, right, so Mr. Collins did not ask-----

Mr. Richard Collins:

I did ask-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hold on, sorry.

Mr. Richard Collins:

If the Deputy just lets me finish-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not Mr. Collins but I who am confused.

Mr. Richard Collins:

Yes, if the Deputy would just let me-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, it is myself who is confused. Mr. Collins is the chief finance officer and there are two payments of €75,000. Deloitte flagged concerns about these with him. He spoke to the director general and she said the payments related to Noel Kelly giving advice about agents during Covid. We will hear the detail on what exactly that entailed. Mr. Collins thought, "Okay, that is worth €150,000."

Mr. Richard Collins:

I did not think, "That is worth €150,000."

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So, what was the advice? What did Mr. Collins learn from the €150,000-worth that he thought-----

Mr. Richard Collins:

I cannot remember exactly how she explained it.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was not value for money, then, if he cannot remember it.

Mr. Richard Collins:

I cannot remember and I am not going to speculate on what that was. I can come back to the Deputy. I probably have notes from then on what it was-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How did Mr. Collins relay that to Deloitte?

Mr. Richard Collins:

I relayed it back to Deloitte-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

By email or-----

Mr. Richard Collins:

No, verbally.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Verbally, right.

Mr. Richard Collins:

Deloitte was not happy with the response I gave to it.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would say so.

Mr. Richard Collins:

It followed up.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would imagine so. Mr. Collins is saying that, at the beginning of March, he knew nothing about the fact that these were top-up payments. He knew Noel Kelly was involved in some way but did not question it enough. He took the story that the director general told him, namely that there were consultancy fees to Noel Kelly because he was giving RTÉ advice on how to manage agents during Covid. Am I correct?

Mr. Richard Collins:

Yes. Not agents-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What was it, then?

Mr. Richard Collins:

It was not agents. I cannot remember exactly what-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ah, come on. Mr. Collins gave the nod for €150,000 and he cannot remember it.

Mr. Richard Collins:

I did not give the nod. Sorry, let me clarify that. I never gave the nod; finance was not-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But he did not ask questions as finance officer about value for money or oversight. If it was not about agents, what was it about?

Mr. Richard Collins:

It was to do with how RTÉ was structured during Covid.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could Mr. Collins give just one sentence about what that entails? Was it that the executive board did not have the knowledge or expertise about-----

Mr. Richard Collins:

It was advice that the director general had received on how RTÉ structured itself and presented itself during Covid. I cannot say any more than that because I would have to consult my notes and see exactly what explanation was given but I relayed back exactly what I was told to Deloitte.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And then, obviously-----

Mr. Richard Collins:

I was not involved in approving the transaction at that stage; the transaction had happened. I was relaying back an explanation-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But the auditors had flagged up a concern about the payments.

Mr. Richard Collins:

They had flagged up a concern on-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Collins raised it with the director general. He did not question her pretty much; he took on board what she said.

Mr. Richard Collins:

I took her explanation.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. As chief financial officer, Mr. Collins thought it was grand and that he would tell Deloitte what the story was and go from there. That is what he is saying.

Mr. Richard Collins:

That is what it was, yes.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. Would Mr. Collins say he is not effectively doing his job?

Mr. Richard Collins:

I think that, at that stage, she gave what appeared to be a plausible explanation-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That Mr. Collins cannot remember.

Mr. Richard Collins:

I cannot remember the exact details of it.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is just so ridiculous I am going to move on.

The commercial director, Ms Geraldine O'Leary, told me yesterday that she could not remember the precise detail on the headings of the invoices she raised. She could not remember whether it related to consultancy fees. I imagine she is extremely diligent. Did she check between then and now? She could not remember the exact detail.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

I did not say I did not remember the term "consultancy fees". What I said was that I did not remember who had advised to put the term "consultancy fees" on the invoices, which is very different.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But she checked that out.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

I know. I knew yesterday that the term "consultancy fees" was on the invoices, which were also given to me once the issue arose.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So, who advised?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

What I said yesterday and what I will repeat today is that I had a number of conversations with both the director general and Noel Kelly about the raising of these invoices. I cannot remember whether it was Noel Kelly who suggested it or whether it was the director general. Rather than make an incorrect statement, I have consistently said that I do not remember because it is the truth.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Knowing she was coming in here today, Ms O'Leary did not check between yesterday and today to have the answer for us whether it was Noel Kelly or the director general. She knew she was coming in here. Has she notes? She had a meeting with Ryan Tubridy's agent. She had a conference call with him in March 2022 or prior to that when the raising of the invoices was suggested or discussed. Is she suggesting that, at that stage, the director general did not say why they wanted to raise the invoices and that it was a guarantee?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

There are a couple of things here, and terminology. I repeat that it was either Noel Kelly or the director general but I am not sure which one. In the absence of being 100% certain, I believe it is correct to say that I do not remember because I do not. It was-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But Ms O'Leary did not seek to find the information between yesterday and today.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

I have been trying to find that information since March of this year. I have been through the Grant Thornton forensic accountant material and I have been 100% honest all the way through. I told Grant Thornton that I would not make a statement that I could not be 100% certain of, and that remains the case.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

However, Ms O'Leary had that meeting with Noel Kelly.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

I had a number of calls.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A conference call.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Yes.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms O'Leary knows what I mean. A conference call is a meeting. She had that. She reckons it was either Noel Kelly or the director general who advised her to put "consultancy fees" down but she did not question that or say they were not consultancy fees. During the conversation with Noel Kelly, he would have said to Ms O'Leary what the invoices were for.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Yes.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And what did he say they were for?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

I was taking my instruction from the director general, who said-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the conversation Ms O'Leary had with Noel Kelly when he was seeking to have the invoices raised, what did he tell her the invoices were for?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Em-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Now, come on, be truthful.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

I am------

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What did he tell Ms O'Leary the invoices were for?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Just to be clear, I spoke to him about raising the invoices to send to the barter company, and in that-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms O'Leary was having a conversation with Noel Kelly about raising invoices but she did not know what the invoices were for.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

I knew the invoices-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Seriously.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

I knew the invoices were related to the €75,000 payment per year, which I had been across from year one-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So Ms O'Leary knew-----

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

-----and I was not across in years two and three, but was asked to use the barter account to pay. I knew what they were for.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

She knew they were for top-up payments for Ryan Tubridy.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Yes.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But she still went ahead with them. She did not question anything. She was raising the invoices and putting them through accounts under the heading "consultancy fees", knowing full well they were top-up payments for Ryan Tubridy.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

I had no idea whether there was a separate agreement. I knew in year one that Ryan Tubridy did a legitimate deal with Renault in respect of which three events happened. They happened in 2022. I knew there was nothing done through a commercial partner for these invoices but I did not know what other things Ryan Tubridy might be doing for RTÉ for that payment. That was not discussed with me.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could I ask just one very short question?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Very briefly.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is for Ms Mullooly in legal services. Does she have a view on any legal concerns raised owing to the creation of false invoices?

Ms Paula Mullooly:

Yes.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it something that could be presented as a criminal offence?

Ms Paula Mullooly:

No. We took specific advice on that.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could there be company law or tax law breaches?

Ms Paula Mullooly:

I am not familiar with the specifics of that, but I would agree that it is highly inappropriate.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could I ask Mr. Collins for clarification? He was aware that the €75,000 was for NK, Noel Kelly, in respect of consultancy.

Mr. Richard Collins:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And he said it was it related to services for consultancy. In a vague way, he mentioned how RTÉ dealt with agents.

Mr. Richard Collins:

No, how RTÉ structured itself during Covid.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, he said it related to agents. Mr. Kelly is an agent.

Mr. Richard Collins:

Sorry. If I said "agents", I wish to correct that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just so we are clear before we move on, was Noel Kelly getting payments of €75,000, supposedly under the heading of consultancy, as an agent to help RTÉ to understand how it should deal with agents? That is the picture that is being presented.

Mr. Richard Collins:

No, it was not explained that this was to help Noel Kelly to-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Collins wrote the cheque and allowed the credit-----

Mr. Richard Collins:

No, I did not allow the credit. I did not approve it and I did not write any cheque. I did not know who CMS Marketing were before this matter was queried by Deloitte. The explanation I was given by the director general was that the payment related to consultancy services that Noel Kelly had provided during Covid.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When Mr. Collins heard the name Noel Kelly and saw the reference to consultancy services to RTÉ, did alarm bells not ring in his head as the chief financial officer?

I fail to understand why. Did he not question that one bit?

Mr. Richard Collins:

I was concerned but I knew the director general had a close relationship with Noel Kelly.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it okay because of that?

Mr. Richard Collins:

It was not okay. The transaction had occurred at this stage. I was providing an explanation as part of the audit to Deloitte.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Your explanation here is ridiculous.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is an appalling vista we are facing. We have to acknowledge there has been huge damage done to public trust in a public broadcaster at a time when high-quality public broadcasting has arguably never been more important for countering the misinformation and disinformation that social media, in particular, tends to be awash with. There is huge damage done to the working relationships of people within RTÉ and to the morale of the many excellent people who are working within that organisation. That has all been acknowledged already.

I want to return briefly to Ms O'Leary on a detail she gave us. She said she only spoke to Renault about year one engagements, no hint at all of arrangements into year two. How many years was the original contract for? Was it a five- or three-year contract?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

The Ryan Tubridy contract?

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

My concern was the sponsored contract. We were coming to the end of year two of a three-year contract. This was in March 2020. We still had two months of that season to go and then there was a third year in the contract. The contract was due to end in May 2021.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You only spoke about year one arrangements.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Yes. I did talk to the client about a potential extension of the contract beyond 2021 but obviously that was not pragmatic because he still had 15 months to run in his contract.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My question then, and it may not be to Ms Geraldine O'Leary, is whether Renault was aware of the underwriting agreement.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

No.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was Renault aware that if it removed itself from this contract, RTÉ was left on the hook for the remainder of the payments?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Not only was Renault not aware of it, neither was I.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was there anybody who would demur from that position, who would suggest that Renault was aware of the underwriting? No. Were there any exit penalties for Renault, which was asked to enter into this contract? It would be fairly standard practice and procedure that if somebody exited a contract before end of time, there would be exit penalties attached.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Sorry, I am a bit confused.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It entered into a contract over a number of years.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

A broadcast sponsorship contract for the "Late Late Show" is what I am referring to, which is what my business is. It was in year two of a three-year broadcast sponsorship contract of the "Late Late Show".

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And decided to end the relationship.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

No, it did not. It was coming to the end of year two, season two, of a three-year broadcast sponsorship contract, which is standard practice in our business. I was asked to ask them if they would like to have an addendum to their contract which involved appearances by Ryan Tubridy. The broadcast sponsorship contract was up and running and in fact they renewed for the following year. The broadcast sponsorship contract was up and running. It was within the context of this contract I asked them if they were interested in three appearances by Ryan Tubridy, because it was connected to their sponsorship of the "Late Late Show", which he presented. Broadcast sponsorship ran its course and was renewed.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay, but without the additional element. It does not seem there was a great deal of protection for public funding on it. I want to take a look at the suspension of Ms Dee Forbes. The request for resignation happened first - we only found this out yesterday. It happened on Friday, 16 June if I am correct. Can Ms Anne O'Leary tell me whether I am correct in saying the recommendation that Ms Forbes be asked to resign came from the audit and risk committee?

Ms Anne O'Leary:

That is correct. As a result of the Grant Thornton report, I thought that what had occurred was significantly serious enough to ask her for her resignation. Subsequent to that, she decided not to reply to our letter on that so we then put her on suspension following a HR disciplinary approach.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was the recommendation to suspend also a recommendation that you brought?

Ms Anne O'Leary:

It was a recommendation that the committee and I brought to the board and then the board approved that recommendation.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Then it became a board decision both to ask for the resignation but also to initiate the suspension. Is that correct?

Ms Anne O'Leary:

That is correct and then directly after that, the board created a smaller committee that was going to handle the HR and disciplinary issue.

Ms Paula Mullooly:

I might be able to help with that as company secretary, just to set out the timeline. There was an audit and risk meeting on the Friday. There was a number of recommendations out of that, including the request to ask the director general to resign. I think the chair spoke to her in relation to that. There was a response by letter either on the Sunday or the Monday, I cannot recall. There was a board meeting on the Monday where the chair of the audit and risk committee brought the recommendations to the board of the audit and risk committee. The board agreed to set up a disciplinary sub-committee to look at the disciplinary matters surrounding the director general.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is a decision with very significant implications. As a board member, when this was brought to the board, what was the rationale given for initiating these proceedings? The board must have been told, "We are recommending that we ask for her resignation and we are asking for that on these grounds." What were the grounds given?

Ms Anne O'Leary:

The grounds were given of the Grant Thornton report that the members all have a copy of. I thought it was significantly serious.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was it, it was as baldly stated as that, based on the findings of the Grant Thornton report.

Ms Anne O'Leary:

One hundred per cent.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Very good. Thank you. I want to ask about the barter account, which has been much discussed. The value of transactions in and out is given to us in some of the details we have here. How many trading partners are represented within that barter account?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

How many clients?

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

In 2022 it was 56 campaigns, so probably about ten to 15 clients approximately.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would there be any credit or debit cards attached to the barter account?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Not that I am aware of.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Not that you are aware of.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Not that I am aware of. It is something I would need to check but not that I am aware of.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In terms of the type of expenditure that-----

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Sorry, can I ask the Deputy to ask me that question again? When he says a credit or debit card-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is about how it operates, whether there are credit cards. It is about transparency and having a good insight on how exactly this is being used. Is it also being used to fund things like travel? Is it being used to fund things like entertainment? What is the mechanism? What is the oversight mechanism in terms of making sure, if it is funding travel, for instance, or accommodation or entertainment, that those have a legitimate business purpose within the organisation?

Mr. Richard Collins:

There were no credit or debit cards attached to it. Payments were made out of the barter account by giving an instruction to the barter company.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

I want to be 100% clear that the barter company may use a credit card when they are paying for something. I cannot say, if that is what the Deputy is asking me. There is no credit card at our end but the barter company may use a credit card.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just in terms of bare figures, €150,000 is what ends up being paid to Tuttle Productions Limited., which is the two tranches of €75,000. The transfer from the barter account, however, is €231,000. Correct me if I am wrong.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Correct.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where is the €81,000?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

The way the barter account works is that when the campaigns come through, 50% is cash and 50% is credits. Those credits are accumulated and reconciled monthly. We can use those credits for travel. Anything we have used them for has been client related up to now. At the end of the year, if there is money in the account we cash it out and the cash-out rate is 0.65. If there is €100,000 left in the account at the end of the year, it is cashed out at €65,000 and that is put into our revenue. The cash-out rate for the barter companies is 0.65.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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This is all very opaque. In the end of the story here, has €150,000 in fact cost us €231,000?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

It has cost us €150,000 in cash.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not sure I fully accept that answer.

I want to pick up on a statement by Mr. Lynch. At the very end of his opening statement, he said: "I have spoken to Kevin Bakhurst last night and I understand from him that his first task when he begins on 10 July will be a complete reconstitution of the executive board of RTÉ." That is a very significant statement. I want to give Mr. Lynch an opportunity to expand on it.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Thank you. I have been talking to Kevin over the last two weeks since I stepped up to be interim deputy director general.

We spoke this morning, particularly coming out of yesterday's meeting, about the register of interests. We are looking at immediately drawing up terms of reference for a register of interests for all senior editorial staff. In terms of the line here, though, it is up to the incoming director general to make all the necessary changes given what has happened.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On that issue of a register of interests, will it be extended to presenters?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Absolutely.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Deputy Colm Burke.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank all the officials here today. I will open with the Grant Thornton report. Paragraph 2.2(g) states that "The Director General was not involved in the drafting, signing or implementation of this agreement (being the Tri-partite)". It would be set out and I am asking for a list of everyone involved in the drafting of that agreement and everyone involved in that agreement. It is important. The earlier statement said "No member of the RTÉ Executive Board, other than the Director General, had all the necessary information", yet the Grant Thornton report is stating what I just referred to. Can the witnesses reconcile these two statements?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Just-----

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

If I could possibly clarify that, the tripartite agreement referred to in the Grant Thornton report is the commercial agreement we did in year one between Renault, RTÉ and NK Management in relation to the three events.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can we have the names of all the people involved in that?

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Yes.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. You might send that on to us in writing.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Certainly.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I move onto the issue concerning the €75,000. I address this question to Mr. Collins regarding the invoice. If someone is acting as a consultant, are they not obliged to charge VAT on the fees they levy?

Mr. Richard Collins:

It depends on where the invoice is invoiced to.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, the standard invoice would have a VAT component. Am I correct?

Mr. Richard Collins:

A standard invoice would have a VAT-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When the invoice was received in RTÉ's accounts department, how come further clarification was not looked for on this aspect?

Mr. Richard Collins:

It was because the invoice was being invoiced to a UK company and not an Irish one.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the scenario in relation to VAT in that case?

Mr. Richard Collins:

No VAT is charged.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Were you aware of the detail of the invoice, because these were described as "consultancy fees"? Surely any invoice would set that out. I have been involved in business for 30 years. Mr. Collins is a qualified financial adviser. Surely just having "consultancy fees" is not a sufficient description on an invoice? Would Mr. Collins accept this?

Mr. Richard Collins:

I would say it is quite a sparse description on an invoice, I would agree with that.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Was there not a duty then on Mr. Collins's part to raise a query regarding what these consultancy fees were for?

Mr. Richard Collins:

I think, yes, in hindsight, there was. At the time, though, this invoice-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. Let us go on.

Mr. Richard Collins:

Right. Okay.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many more invoices went through like this where there were consultancy fees marked down?

Mr. Richard Collins:

There were two consultancy fees. I did not see these-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Have you looked at other accounts where the description "consultancy fees" was used and those invoices went through the system without anyone raising questions?

Mr. Richard Collins:

We have not done a detailed analysis of that yet.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it not time to do such a detailed analysis if this is the-----

Mr. Richard Collins:

I think it is and this was discussed yesterday. I believe the audit and risk committee, ARC, is going to look at this.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Every other business in this country has its invoices robustly checked. I refer to any organisation. In a large organisation that is also a public service broadcaster, there is even more of an onus to cross-check everything that comes in.

Mr. Richard Collins:

Yes. If I can just explain what happened here, the barter account sat outside the normal system of controls in RTÉ.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes. It is a slush fund. If we look at the definition of "slush fund", and I got this from Black's Law Dictionary, it is "A reserve of money held secretly by a company that [had] no accountability for its use". This is exactly what we are talking about. This is a slush fund, so let us stop talking about it being a barter account.

Mr. Richard Collins:

Okay.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There was very little accountability about the money going into it.

Mr. Richard Collins:

There was. Had it sat within the internal controls system, for an expenditure of €75,000, there would probably have been-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are in charge of the internal controls system. This is money going from RTÉ to a barter account where you do not even know what the money is for. Am I correct?

Mr. Richard Collins:

The invoice was labelled "consultancy services". It was approved by the director general. From a control point of view-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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You are the financial director. You have the opportunity to raise queries. You did not raise a query about this invoice. Have you raised queries concerning other invoices that were coming in during the last two to three years?

Mr. Richard Collins:

I have not seen other invoices coming in just labelled "consultancy services".

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is that not more reason for asking the question, if you have not?

Mr. Richard Collins:

Yes, it is a reason now why we should go back and look at this.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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When you became aware of the query raised by the auditors, and they obviously were concerned, you still do not appear to have had the same concern, even after the explanation from the then director general.

Mr. Richard Collins:

Look, the explanation that was given to me, again, was not a detailed one. I relayed this back to Deloitte and then it was in its hands to move with it. Things moved very quickly after that. It was not as though it was sat on.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Did Deloitte raise queries in respect of any other item in the accounts at the time?

Mr. Richard Collins:

On the accounts in general?

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Mr. Richard Collins:

No.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This was the only issue?

Mr. Richard Collins:

Yes, this was the only issue Deloitte raised.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Was there not, therefore, an obligation on you to make sure the issue the company had raised was fully investigated?

Mr. Richard Collins:

It was and that was what happened. When I spoke to Deloitte and gave the company the explanation, we concluded, Deloitte and I, that this was not a very detailed explanation. I suggested that Deloitte should speak directly to the director general, which representatives of the company then did.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Turning to the barter account, we are talking about €115,380 being paid annually. This is an extra €40,380. Is this technically what we are talking about as a handling fee for the €75,000 or can we get a better explanation than what is being furnished to us?

Mr. Richard Collins:

It is, effectively, as the Deputy said, a handling fee for the barter company.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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In other words, let us imagine a situation where I am in a legal practice and someone comes to me with a cheque for €75,000. That person says they do not want to send it on, asks me if I will put it through my account and says I will be given €40,380 for doing that.

Mr. Richard Collins:

It is a fee to the barter company. It is accepting-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is €40,380 for handling a cheque for €75,000.

Mr. Richard Collins:

It is not for handling a cheque. Goods and services are received, and then it must find someone to sell those on. It is a transaction-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In this case, it was €75,000 that was forwarded to the agent for Ryan Tubridy and there was a charge of €40,380.

Mr. Richard Collins:

The fee was-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----35%.

Mr. Richard Collins:

Yes.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is a handling fee of 35% being charged by any other organisation in the country? I have never heard of any other company charging a fee of 35% for one payment, and 35% each time. Would you not accept that you should have raised queries in relation to that barter account?

Mr. Richard Collins:

Look, regarding the barter account, I brought it into the accounts, so everything was transparent there at the end of the year.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Now-----

Mr. Richard Collins:

In hindsight, yes, I should have gone a step further in early 2020. I should have just shut it down or brought it totally under finance's control. It was at that stage-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it under finance control now?

Mr. Richard Collins:

It is under total control of finance now.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Every item that goes through it can be clearly identified and, as a result, there is full accountability.

Mr. Richard Collins:

Every item going through it will be budgeted first and then go through the internal controls system.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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In the last ten years, how much money has gone through the barter account?

Mr. Richard Collins:

I will tell the Deputy now. I will do my maths on it. I would say it was probably between €1 million and €1,250,000.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This was in ten years.

Mr. Richard Collins:

In ten years.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Why not use a normal payments system, rather than going through the barter account in this particular case? Why was there all the secrecy on this?

Mr. Richard Collins:

I am not here to justify the barter account. I was not happy with it when I saw it first. I cannot speculate on why it was used. It looked like it was where expenses came up relating to the commercial division that had not been budgeted for. It was a way of absorbing those expenses without causing an overrun in the accounts.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Having spoken about the commercial sector, regarding the raising of credit notes, who has the authority to do this?

Mr. Richard Collins:

Divisional directors can raise credit notes.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Any divisional director, therefore, can raise a credit note. Do they have to consult with the finance department?

Mr. Richard Collins:

They would instruct the finance department.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Would they set out the detail as to why a credit note is being issued?

Mr. Richard Collins:

If the Deputy is asking if there is a form that is filled in, then the answer is "No", there is not.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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We are talking about a credit note here of €75,000.

Surely there must be a system in place. If giving a credit note to somebody for €75,000, surely Mr. Collins as the financial controller should understand what that credit note is for.

Mr. Richard Collins:

Well the-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Any other organisation in the country: €75,000, no problem, just sign on the dotted line and we will give you the credit note.

Mr. Richard Collins:

The credit note was approved by the director general. From a control point of view I was happy that - from a control point of view - the director general had signed it off. That gave me comfort.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses to Leinster House again today. On the opening statements, I welcome the change in tone from RTÉ today and the emphasis, obviously, on the deceptive nature of the transaction. I hope it is a company with greater transparency, not only here today but in the forthcoming weeks and months. The impact of this, as we have seen ourselves with journalists and other staff members who have been out protesting highlighting their concerns, is that morale in RTÉ is through the floor. For me, all of the staff and the tax-paying public, the trust has also been eroded. The mission statement of RTÉ says: "To enrich [which may be a poor choice of words given the discussion today] Irish life with content that challenges, educates and entertains". I suggest we would also look at that mission statement in the next little while.

I can also say it is unsatisfactory with regard to the director general, whatever her status. Yesterday at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, there was uncertainty about contracts. As I look at all the witnesses here, I wonder if all of their contracts are in order because there was really head scratching as to who had a contract, what was in order and what was not. It is unsatisfactory that we have an acting interim deputy director general who does not have the knowledge that we need. We also have other board members who are new and who cannot give us satisfactory answers. I am aware that an independent report is happening in the next couple of weeks, and hopefully within four weeks it will be reporting and that we as a committee can engage with the witnesses on that.

I will start off with Mr Collins. How long has he worked with RTÉ?

Mr. Richard Collins:

I joined RTÉ in January 2020.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

From that point, Mr. Collins has said that he was concerned with the barter account. Yet he proceeded with it. Are there any other invoices or accounts that Mr. Collins has made payments to, substantial payments such as the €75,000, about which he has had concerns but that have been paid out, and which to this day he is not certain as to the origin or the necessity of those payments?

Mr. Richard Collins:

No, there is nothing else.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Collins certain, as the chief financial officer for the organisation, that there are no other similar payments, or payments to contractors, to employees, payments to subordinates within RTÉ or to those who supply services to RTÉ? Are there any such similar payments being made or arrangements having been made? Obviously, payments are being made in all sorts of other ways.

Mr. Richard Collins:

You can never be 100% certain.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You are not 100% certain.

Mr. Richard Collins:

You can never be 100% certain. All I can say is-----

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Given the-----

Mr. Richard Collins:

If I could just answer that. We have very good control systems within RTÉ, outside of this-----

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

From now?

Mr. Richard Collins:

Aside from this barter account, the control systems are generally good in RTÉ. There is a requisitioning system and credit notes have to be done, there are levels of approval-----

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But for credit notes it was just signed off, right? It is not a great system, as one can appreciate.

Mr. Richard Collins:

Yes but the commercial department is a fluid department and things happen in there where they need to give credits. They manage the revenue-----

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It comes back to finance though does it not?

Mr. Richard Collins:

Ultimately, yes.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the auditors, how long have they served as auditors for the organisation? How often would the organisation change auditors?

Mr. Richard Collins:

They were changed and they took over with the 2018 audit.

Ms Anne O'Leary:

That is correct. It was KPMG prior to that.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How long had they served?

Ms Anne O'Leary:

Much longer. It was 11 years.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome Ms O'Leary. I will ask Ms O'Leary about the information we gained yesterday on when people found out about what, when and who. Ms O'Leary is head of the audit and risk committee. The revelation yesterday was that the information was found on 16 March. Is that right?

Ms Anne O'Leary:

That is correct. I spoke to the partner of Deloitte on 17 March. Originally he spoke to Mr. Richard Collins on 7 March and 9 March. I think that Richard spoke to Dee some time on 8 March. He had reported that there was an issue he was unhappy with.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When did it come before the audit and risk committee?

Ms Anne O'Leary:

On 17 March when he called me.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So you had a meeting on St. Patrick's Day did you?

Ms Anne O'Leary:

I had a call with him. I work full time. I work Saturdays and Sundays to do my RTÉ-----

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand. How come it took those three months for the Grant Thornton report to be completed?

Ms Anne O'Leary:

I got on to Grant Thornton on the 21st, and on the 23rd, we had a board meeting. I explained to them the issues that had been highlighted. On the 29th, I got additional information-----

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is this March?

Ms Anne O'Leary:

Sorry, yes, 29 March. Then we started on the terms of reference for Arthur Cox and for Grant Thornton, which were issued to them on 4 April. I was on with them, almost on a weekly basis, to try to see how they were doing. They had an awful lot of work to do. As they called it, it was their forensic accounting department, and they had a number of emails to go through to find out what kinds of conversations that people had.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is why it took the three months.

Ms Anne O'Leary:

Absolutely.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How often had the audit and risk committee been meeting then, up to this issue?

Ms Anne O'Leary:

We were meeting every second week.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was that ordinarily every second week?

Ms Anne O'Leary:

No. We would usually meet once a month but because of this, we-----

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Because of this there were these meetings. I understand

Ms Anne O'Leary:

Yes.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has Ms O'Leary been on the board since 2014? Is that right?

Ms Anne O'Leary:

November 2014.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has Ms O'Leary always been the head of the audit and risk committee?

Ms Anne O'Leary:

I have.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms O'Leary got the short straw then. With regard to the change in culture, which was referred to in the opening statements, given the length of time she served on the board, in Ms O'Leary's time has she seen a change in culture in RTÉ in that period?

Ms Anne O'Leary:

I am afraid Deputy that I probably concentrated on the job that I was given by Moya Doherty, which was to look after audit and risk. Within audit and risk one has audit, finance-----

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I know what is in it.

Ms Anne O'Leary:

-----business continuity planning; they did not have a risk register. I got all of those things in place, including very much strengthening the internal audit. Procurement had some difficulties and even security had difficulties, and I made sure we made huge changes in that.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

From 2014, and Ms O'Leary's time on the board, up to 2016, 2017, 2018, was there a change in culture? Obviously, Ms O'Leary was having meetings every couple of weeks on the audit and risk committee. Were there things that were being flagged more often or more regularly or had things changed?

Ms Anne O'Leary:

I thought the internal audit procedure had really improved things. We were getting information that we did not have before and we were able to make changes. Peadar Faherty is the lead internal auditor and he is extraordinary. He is really good and he made sure that new procedures were put in place and that people were trained. I thought there was a much better feeling that we were all working together.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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So this has come as a complete shock to Ms O'Leary.

Ms Anne O'Leary:

Completely.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay and I thank Ms O'Leary for that.

At yesterday's Oireachtas Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, evidence was given that some RTÉ staff were given cars as brand ambassadors. Can Mr. Lynch speak to that?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

RTÉ staff were given cars, so-----

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How many staff are we talking about?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

My understanding is I think they are contractors.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You think or you know?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

I know of one.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that one staff member?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Correct.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How does a contractor, who does not have the same terms and conditions, get the bonus of a car?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

That would be a contractor. It would be a contractor who does some work for RTÉ and who then would have a set of other commercial relationships themselves.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a pretty lucrative contract, would Mr. Lynch not think?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Absolutely but they might be doing a short-term contract in terms of presenting and so on. They would also have a set of other things they do for income.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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What were the criteria by which a car was given to a contractor?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

With the criteria, anything like that needs to be approved by the line manager.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Who is that?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

In this case It would be director of content.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Would they then relay to the director general, DG, or is there a head of human resources? How is that done or is it all done through the DG's office?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

In terms of that process, I am not sure what happens after that, whether it is just approved locally or not.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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On the condition for a car to be given as part of the contract, is that organised by RTÉ?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

No, that is not part. I am saying the RTÉ contract has nothing to do with the car. That could be presented-----

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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As a bonus, is it?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

No. I am just saying there are some people who may have an arrangement with a car company but that has nothing to do with our contract. That is just to be totally transparent about it. I made inquiries inside and I believe there is one person who has been given a car.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Who is that?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

It is a staff member in RTÉ. That was disclosed to me last night.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I presume that person is not here today.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Correct.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy, very briefly now.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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On the risk register and what was said earlier, which was very welcome, does Mr. Lynch or Mr. Collins know whether RTÉ routinely pays appearance fees for guests?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Yes, it would.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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What is the criterion?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Typically, a programme like "The Late Late Show” would not pay for guests. Then, maybe a comedy panel show would pay for guests.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Is there control around that?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Yes.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Who is in charge of that control?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

In terms of commission programming, there is the IPU, the independent production unit. Within that, there is a finance function which does all the contracting with independent companies that are commissioned to make programming for RTÉ. All those fees would be agreed. There is a fees committee that would look at all the fees comparatively, look at the hours and the cost.

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

Yes.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

In the evidence I have seen, yes. Payments were concealed to Ryan Tubridy.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Yes.

Mr. Richard Collins:

Broadly, yes. I cannot remember the exact detail but broadly that is what it was.

Mr. Richard Collins:

No, verbally, and I communicated with Deloitte pretty much immediately afterwards, verbally.

Mr. Richard Collins:

At that stage, the expenditure had been committed so I was relaying what happened at that stage. The purpose of speaking to the director general was to find out what the background was to this. The payments were to a company controlled by Noel Kelly so it is obvious that they went to Noel Kelly.

Mr. Richard Collins:

I think that is a private matter. I think we are going to disclose our earnings.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The chair of the board said all those figures were to be published. Given that Mr. Collins is working for a public organisation, I would expect to hear that answer here today. The Deputy has asked Mr. Collins what his salary is. I would expect him to answer that question.

Mr. Richard Collins:

I do not know what my exact salary is off the top of my head but I can give-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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This is absolutely outrageous. The chief financial officer of RTÉ cannot tell us what he is paid. Are we supposed to buy that?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The chief financial officer has been asked a question by Deputy Brady who has the floor. Mr. Collins, what is your salary?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have senior staff from public bodies before the committee every week and we can get the figures for their salaries. RTÉ is supposed to be about truth, transparency and trust.

Mr. Richard Collins:

I have no problem being transparent.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is a very basic question and I expect the answer to it for the members.

Mr. Richard Collins:

I believe my salary is around €200,000 base salary, plus a car allowance of €25,000. It is in and around that.

Mr. Richard Collins:

I was asked to get an explanation. What more could I have done at that stage? I was asked to get an explanation - a more detailed explanation - of what these invoices related to.

Mr. Richard Collins:

If the issue had come on my radar earlier, then absolutely, yes. That is when it came on my radar. Deloitte was looking for an answer quickly on that because we had an audit and risk meeting shortly afterwards.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

To give context, because I knew it would come up, what I had actually done was I was trying to work out the day the director of content told me Ryan Tubridy had come into his office to tell him he was stepping down, so I went back and checked my email because I had sent him an email with a list of potential presenters. That was on 13 March. In my mind, I did not realise that the CFO had had contact from the auditors on 10 March or whatever. That is to clarify that.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Based on the information from yesterday, it is possible.

Mr. Richard Collins:

I had no conversations.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

The only conversations I was aware of were between the director of content and Ryan Tubridy.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

I would say it is possible, looking at the information.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

Yes, I was asked to represent that proposal to Renault in March 2020.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

To Renault.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

My initial meeting with the client, Renault, was on 9 March. The client said he would consider it and he would run it through his finance department. The week afterwards, Covid broke out so it was not a priority for him. By the time we reconnected on it and got to see how we could work through it, it was July 2020.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

The client was very clear from the beginning that it would have to be cost neutral and that he did not have any incremental money. By the time it came to July, when we were raising the credit note, a large part of the value of what Renault should have gotten through its "Late Late Show" sponsorship had not happened because a key part of its broadcast sponsorship, which is the three-year contract I referred to earlier, included 20 tickets per week and hospitality at RTÉ. That value did not happen from 20 March through to September because of Covid.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

I sent the request for the credit note to my finance manager in commercial and CFO.

Mr. Richard Collins:

Yes.

Mr. Richard Collins:

It was for a credit note to Renault in relation to the sponsorship. I was not aware of the terms of this tripartite or commercial agreement. I was not involved in negotiating that. To be honest, I did not cop what this was related to.

Mr. Richard Collins:

I did not ask because I was not aware of the terms of the Renault relationship or the commercial relationship.

Mr. Richard Collins:

No, I was not asked to sign off on it. It was processed and I was copied on an email then-----

Mr. Richard Collins:

I was aware that-----

Mr. Richard Collins:

No, I was not. I was aware-----

Mr. Richard Collins:

The director general was involved in this. I took comfort, from a control point of view, that the director general was looking at this. At the time, the Deputy must remember, I was dealing with a number of major issues in the organisation. It was early on in Covid, it looked like RTÉ could run out of cash, we had an accounting system implementation that was not going well and could have caused major problems for the business and we had two big tax audits which put us under pressure on. My focus-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Ten seconds.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

I reiterate that I was not aware it was underwritten because I did not have sight of Ryan Tubridy's contract.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am going to suspend the meeting for five minutes. The next speaker will be Deputy Verona Murphy

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for their appearance. At a time when we have the greatest housing catastrophe in the history of our State, we have overspending in our Department of Health and there are no checks and balances, billions have been wasted annually. We have a Government that displays complete incompetence in the management of the public finances. This story comes out of a clear blue sky – manna from heaven to distract from the issues that really impact ordinary daily lives. The Government is delighted with this story because it has taken the spotlight from it on the run-up to the Dáil recess.

I have watched the rolling media brawl for nearly the last week and a half. I must admit that I have some experience with media brawl. It is clear that this media circus can be reduced to the following facts. Certain people within RTÉ conceived a scheme of deceit for a number of reasons: first, to retain the services of Ryan Tubridy; and second, to portray to the general public and to the staff of RTÉ that Tubridy had taken a pay cut. The public, certain staff at RTÉ and this committee were lied to.

No checks and balances in any system will prevent deceit and that is just a fact of life. With a large organisation such as RTÉ, people run for cover and they immediately look for a scapegoat, or scapegoats, as the case may be. In what would appear to me generally is the case, those who identified the scapegoats were quite often themselves the cause of the controversy. The act of deceit is only surpassed by the more despicable act of scapegoating. Never have I seen more obvious scapegoating than in this debacle. RTÉ conceived the scheme of the deceit and induced Ryan Tubridy, whom I do not know personally, nor do I know his family nor any of the other people who have been mentioned in relation to Ryan Tubridy, with a pay package to stay. A number of members have confirmed this week that there was no wrongdoing on Ryan Tubridy's part. The people in front of us effectively dismissed Dee Forbes and then issued a lengthy press release scapegoating her. The quality of management should be judged by the way they deal with the situations they find themselves in. I can assure those present that what I have heard today and yesterday and for the last week would indicate to me that this management does not have the skill set to deal with what is before them. All they have done is look for scapegoats.

While RTÉ says Ryan Tubridy did nothing wrong, its actions do not support that position. Tubridy no longer presents his programme. In my view, the act of taking Ryan Tubridy off air was wrong. It has compounded the controversy, while at the same time it destroyed his reputation, in the scapegoating. It was ill advised and should only have been done with the approval of the board. It is as plain as a pikestaff to any person with a modicum of common sense that this act will cost RTÉ, and of course the taxpayer, far more in compensation to Tubridy than the €150,000 we are talking about that was legally due anyway. The bill for the action will have to be delivered at some point in the future.

I have one question for this delegation. Who made the decision to take Ryan Tubridy off air, bearing in mind the continuous statements that he did nothing wrong? I assume that one of two people can answer that question, because it certainly was not anyone who is not here.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

That is ultimately my decision as editor-in-chief because I am the interim deputy director general. Why he is off air is because RTÉ has an obligation to be independent and impartial-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am sorry but I cannot hear Mr. Lynch for some reason.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

As deputy director general it is my decision to take Ryan Tubridy off air, in consultation with the director of content.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And the director of content is not here.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Correct.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was that decision put before the board?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

No.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is Mr. Lynch telling me that in his capacity with someone who is not here – the director of content – he made a decision, which in effect has exposed RTÉ and the taxpayer to hundreds of thousands if not millions in compensation? That is the decision made by him.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

I am the editor-in-chief. Yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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So Mr. Lynch made that decision. What was his rationale? He made the statement also that he has done nothing wrong.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

As I understand it, from legal advice-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is Mr. Lynch saying now that he did something wrong?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

No.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So Mr. Lynch continues with the statement that Ryan Tubridy has done nothing wrong.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

It is not wrong. He has done nothing illegal. The contract that Ryan Tubridy engaged with is legal.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there a difference? Is Mr. Lynch inferring a difference?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

There is a difference between the editorial-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. Lynch think when it comes to compensation there will be a difference? Because they will only be interested in the legal element of it. We are back with the question I put to Mr. Lynch. Will he resign over the compensation that will be paid to Ryan Tubridy?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

As I said in my opening statement-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is a binary question. The answer would be "Yes" or "No". Will he resign and make himself accountable for a decision that he can be sure has ruined Ryan Tubridy? He has been taken off the air under the assertion by RTÉ that he has done nothing wrong. Mr. Lynch did not say that he did not do anything illegal. He said he had done nothing wrong. I am sure that will be brought up a number of times to Mr. Lynch. Will he resign: "Yes" or "No"?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

That would be a matter for the incoming director general.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The decision was made by Mr. Lynch with just one other. I will turn to Ms Ní Raghallaigh. Is she happy that, without a shadow of a doubt, she has been exposed now, as the chair of RTÉ, to compensation?

We are all of a frame of mind here commercially that we know the realm of these types of things will run into hundreds of thousands, if not millions. He is not the only person who has been mentioned. It has been the assertion of RTÉ, from both Ms Ní Raghallaigh and Mr. Lynch, that he did nothing wrong yet we are faced with a big bill. How does Ms Ní Raghallaigh feel about that decision being made, in which she seemingly had no act or part?

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

To clarify---

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No-----

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

This pertains to the Deputy's question. It is not the role of the board to get involved in editorial decision-making.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Excuse me for one second-----

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

The role that the editor-in-chief-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This refers to editorial decision-making. Who is the editorial decision made by? Are we back to Mr. Lynch?

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

The editor-in-chief.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Who is?

Ms Si?n N? Raghallaigh:

Mr. Lynch.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is Mr. Lynch at this point in time. Therefore, really, all the bluster that Ms Ní Raghallaigh has come in here with about what she is going to do is only bluster, is it not? The witnesses have exposed RTÉ among them with a massive bill for compensation to someone they assert as having done nothing wrong. They have not just thrown them all under the bus, they have backed over them and reversed at speed. Can Mr. Lynch tell me whether he is going to be accountable in the future for when the compensation is paid? If Ryan Tubridy did nothing wrong, what was the basis and rationale for taking him off the air and paying him while he is off the air and paying another presenter to do his radio programme? Is Mr. Lynch going to be accountable?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Yes, I will be completely accountable for it.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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So, Mr. Lynch will resign. He is going to confirm today that he will resign when that happens because as sure as night follows day, that is going to happen.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

No, I am just saying I am taking full responsibility for the decision for Ryan Tubridy not to be on air.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy is over time.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry, Chair, we need to clarify that. Is Mr. Lynch saying he will resign and be accountable?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

For that decision, no.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy Murphy.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Well, then, talk is cheap.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy Dillon.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We accept the witnesses' appearance here before us today and appreciate their co-operation. Back in September 2020, RTÉ campaigned on "Truth Matters". I have to assume today that all of the witnesses in front of us at the Committee of Public Accounts are here to tell the truth. However, I still cannot find where the truth is or how we can determine the real sequence of events that occurred. Certainly, that reminds me of a famous line from Theodore Roosevelt in 1912, who said that looking for the truth is like nailing jelly to the wall.

After yesterday's committee meeting and what we have heard again today - we have been in public session for nearly two hours - many facts are still unknown. We want even further detail with regard to the sequence of events. I will direct this question to the chief financial officer, CFO, Mr. Collins. With regard to RTÉ's payment to Mr. Noel Kelly for services provided during Covid-19, these were really payments for Ryan Tubridy and Renault. Is that correct, yes or no?

Mr. Richard Collins:

According to the Grant Thornton report, yes.

Ms Geraldine O'Leary:

I will clarify that they had nothing to do with Renault.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, Ms O'Leary. My questions are directed to the CFO. Mr. Collins said earlier that he needed to consult his notes. What is contained within his notes that would have led him to previously state that?

Mr. Richard Collins:

I am sorry; I did not get the Deputy's question.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Collins said previously that he needed to consult his notes in relation to the questions that we asked previously.

Mr. Richard Collins:

In relation to the explanation I gave-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Mr. Richard Collins:

-----to Deloitte.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Would Mr. Collins determine these types of payments in a serious manner with regard to their intent, as Deputy Burke discussed, around consultancy fees and the obligations around VAT exemptions that were put through a barter?

Mr. Richard Collins:

RTÉ was not making the payment there so VAT was not an issue for RTÉ. It was the barter company. The invoice was to the barter company, not to RTÉ.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The chair of the board outlined in her initial statement that there were deceitful practices in play here. Would Mr. Collins agree with that?

Mr. Richard Collins:

I would, yes.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Would "Prime Time Investigates" call it fraud? Would Mr. Collins agree?

Mr. Richard Collins:

We have had legal advice to say that it is not fraud.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In what context?

Mr. Richard Collins:

It has been looked at as part of the Grant Thornton review. Arthur Cox has looked at this and given advice, or given an opinion, and there is not fraud involved here.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Raising invoices for something knowing that it is not what it is-----

Mr. Richard Collins:

It is concealment and deception.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Would Mr. Collins not determine that - wrongfully knowing - to be fraud ?

Mr. Richard Collins:

It depends on who the fraud is against and whether anyone has lost out. My own opinion is that maybe the taxpayer was defrauded, but-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What other external contractors did RTÉ pay for advice during Covid-19?

Mr. Richard Collins:

Off the top of my head, I am not aware of any other contractors that were paid for advice. On the IT side, we would have taken advice on setting up and structuring ourselves to work remotely and that, but-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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