Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Before we begin, I remind members, witnesses and persons in the Public Gallery to turn off their mobile phones.

Witnesses giving evidence within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege with respect to the evidence they give to the committee. This means that witnesses will have full defence in any defamation action arising out of anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege, and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and I remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity.

Witnesses who give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, and they may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against persons outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online in a committee meeting when they are participating within the parliamentary precincts. There can be no assurance with regard to participation online from outside the parliamentary precincts, and members should be mindful of this when they are contributing.

The purpose of today's first session is to resume our examination of a new school of veterinary medicine in Ireland. The committee will hear from representatives of a working group for reform in Irish veterinary education, including Mr. Jimmy Quinn, founder and director of the working group, Mr. Liam Moriarty and Mr. Ian Fleming. The gentlemen are very welcome to today's meeting. Their opening statements have been circulated to members and are taken as read. I will allow five minutes for a presentation and then we will go to questions and answers. Which of our witnesses will make the presentation?

Mr. Ian Fleming:

I would just like to say a couple of words at the start, if that is okay. I thank the Chair and the committee for having us here this evening. It is a great privilege for us to be here. We were formed, as a group, after a meeting which took place at the end of November 2021, when we recognised that there was a problem with regard to the supply of veterinary practitioners, particularly in remote, rural places, but across the country. This was something that was seen in the cities, towns and particularly in rural communities.

We had a meeting with various organisations within the farming community, Teagasc, the political field, and the veterinary field as well. We had about 40 people at the meeting and subsequently, a committee was formed. It was based in Cork at the time, and our view at that stage was with UCC because we had connections into UCC. Our imprimatur was to look to getting a new veterinary school into the country. There is, as the members well know, only one veterinary school in the country, in UCD. It was founded in Ballsbridge back in 1901. This is a chance, not just in a lifetime, but a chance in 120 years, to found a new veterinary school. I do not want to delay this in any way but we want this to be done on merit and we want it to be done as soon as possible.

We have four interested universities that have put up their hands for a new school. We would like to see that being put into operation quickly, to start perhaps in 2025 with the first intake of students. To do that, we would like the committee to recommend that this should take place and that the appointment of the new school should be based on that merit. I know that will be discussed here this evening. That concludes my opening statement. We will be delighted to take questions from the committee. The members have seen the statistics etc. that we have put together.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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As there are a good few members here, I will restrict contributions from each member to ten minutes.

Tim Lombard (Fine Gael)
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I will not need that. It is great to have the witnesses here today. It is a really important step forward to make sure that we get significant movement on this issue of trying to get another veterinary school in the State. As Mr. Fleming said, it has been over 100 years since we set up the previous one.

The witnesses should outline the current required need and give their views on the age profile of the veterinary profession here. I also ask them to elaborate on the large animal scenario. The majority of vets are very much involved in small animal practice. That area seems to be soaking up a great many of veterinary practitioners. What are the witnesses' fears regarding large animal practices, in particular, and what is required to make sure we have a sustainable food industry going forward? If we are to have a sustainable food industry, the veterinary profession is really important in that remit from a regulation point of view. Where does the veterinary profession need to go regarding that identity of being the key actor to make sure that our food industry is sustainable going forward?

I know the witnesses are based in Cork and move in a more southern sphere, so to speak. What is the need for a veterinary college outside of the Dublin area? We have had a veterinary college in Dublin and it has worked quite successfully, to some degree. Perhaps a new college needs to take into consideration what rural Ireland has to offer. Munster has a strong dairy farming sector, a large equine trade and large poultry and pork producers. What are the indications and statistics regarding the actual portfolio outside of Munster and what could be joined up regarding helping the proposed new veterinary college, whether it is Teagasc assets, or private assets and how can they all be tied together?

The witnesses also should elaborate on the international element. At the moment, we have a cohort of more than 600 students who have travelled abroad to study veterinary medicine. We could, in many ways, see the potential of having them educated in Ireland and having the research they do coming home to be a part of our key driver, with our food industry. How could that asset be realised and what could it do for us as an entity and even internationally? It is quite possible that we could become an international hub for education for vets. Where else would be the more appropriate place to learn the profession but in Ireland instead of us being an exporter of students? Could Ireland be an importer of students? I realise UCD do that at the moment, particularly with students from North America. Is there an possibility that this prospective college, or colleges, depending on what is decided, could be a part of an entity that could be involved in a global international movement to train vets for the world market?

Mr. Ian Fleming:

From a statistical perspective, we were aware that there were issues because of the number of advertisements in the Veterinary Ireland Journaland online. There was a huge number of advertisements and they tended to be dragging on. The reality of that came home to bite me about two years ago when we placed an advertisement for a replacement for me to do night and weekend work because I have reached that stage of my career. It took us 15 months to find a vet who was willing to step in and do the job and that probably would be considered a short enough time to wait for a response. Getting vets to fill positions is a huge issue.

As we went along, we got some figures on new registrants from the Veterinary Council of Ireland, VCI. This is shown on the column chart on the members' brief. It indicates the number of new registrants going on the register year on year from 2001 to 2022. I will not bore the committee with the details except to say that within those statistics lie the real issues we face. Last year, we got 80 graduates on the register from a course in UCD that produces 82 graduates a year, on average. Some of those will have gone away, to come back again, and that is the way it works. The average is between 70 and 80 annually. The middle, green section of the chart shows the Irish people who have gone abroad. As Senator Lombard pointed out, there are about 600 Irish-trained vets abroad, so that is 120 per year, for five years. From the statistics, we know that about 60 return every year. We are getting roughly half of them or maybe slightly over half, because there may be a fallout of a few from over there. However, generally speaking, they do not. I have a qualified man from Tullamore, who has been staying with me for the past couple of months. He studied in Warsaw and he has been filling me in on what has been going on in Warsaw in the last while. We are aware of the issue of the brain drain. We are losing half the number of Irish students who go abroad because they never return to the country. This is based on averages over a period of years.

The top portion of the chart shows the foreign nationals who were educated abroad who come in to make up the shortfall. Despite these people coming in, we still have a shortfall. There are still up to 90 advertisements for positions in the veterinary magazine every month, because that is the reality on the ground. We still have guys in remote areas who cannot find somebody and people with small animal practices who are struggling to get a replacement or to expand their practices for the same reason.

Regarding the age profile, we got some figures from the VCI, about the ageing programme. I did a bit of a search into that and we see in those Munster areas, in particular, the increasing age profile. To go back a little bit, in 2008, the predecessor of the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, produced a report on different professions in the country. Regarding veterinary practitioners, the report highlighted a couple of issues and one of them was an ageing profile. The commission raised a red flag on the basis that 14% of vets on the register were over 55 years of age. Now, on average 18% of vets on the register are over 60 years of age. I then took the averages from the counties and found that the Munster area was generally well above the average, at 21% or 22% of vets over 60 years of age.

In Tipperary's case, it was 23%. It is a significant issue, which was brought home to me by a colleague working in a town in Kerry who told me that, of the five individual practices in his town, one of the vets was in his 80s, two were in their 70s, one was in his 60s and there was a young fellow in his 50s. This can affect our food industry. With such a vulnerability, if one of those vets gets a heart attack or becomes otherwise ill, we do not know whether that vet will be replaced. There seems to be a dearth of potential replacements. A new school in Ireland would be vital. We gathered the figures for Limerick and Cork counties. When I then rang the practices in the cities of Cork and Limerick to get their age profiles, what I discovered was that the percentages matched those in Kerry and Tipperary. In other words, approximately 22% of the practising professionals in those large counties – they are the counties dealing with the huge dairy industry – are in their 60s or over.

These are the age issues, but I will pass over to my colleagues to deal with the Senator's other questions.

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

At 3,300, we have never had so many vets on the register, but this raw figure needs to be qualified. Many of those are part-time or are semi-retired but still on the register to carry out, for example, meat inspection work. A more accurate intangible figure is that of full-time equivalents who are available to do clinical work. This is where the problem is. Mr. Moriarty would back that up.

Mr. Liam Moriarty:

Yes. The shortage of vets is broad. I am privileged to work in a companion animal practice in an urban setting and we are probably best placed to hire vets, yet it is always a struggle. This issue will be most acutely felt by my colleagues in rural practice who have more difficult working conditions, longer working hours, etc. Many of the vets who are in university right now start out with the intention of working in companion animal practice. They are not even thinking about working in mixed practice. When I went to university, you were expected to work in mixed practice. When I say "mixed", I mean a mixture of farm animal and companion animal. The vast majority of practices do some companion animals or pets and some farm work. We have more and more part-time vets. Many of my colleagues work part-time. My wife is a vet, as is my sister. They do not do full-time clinical work, yet they are on the register.

The larger number on the register is positive. The industry is growing. There is a greater need and there is a greater variety of work, but we need to train more people. We are fortunate to have a super university that is ready to go and start a new course, with graduates hopefully in 2030. There is a crisis looming. Given the current age profile, we need to act quickly on this. It is good that the industry is growing and high-quality work is being done, and we are an integral part of rural Ireland and the communities in which we work, but we need more people. I hope that the committee will recommend that we move quickly to starting a course at University of Limerick that will take students in in 2025 and output them in 2030.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses. Other groups appeared before us two weeks ago. Thankfully, this is a fait accomplito some extent and is going to happen.

I wish to ask the witnesses what they believe the best outcome would be. There was a great deal of discussion at our previous meeting about the qualifications for University College Dublin, UCD. I would like the witnesses to discuss those. We must be cognisant of the world status that UCD holds. We debated the merits of approving people with lower points but more practical qualifications – agricultural college qualifications or some other farm animal qualification – for veterinary courses. While we do not want to dilute the quality of the vets being educated at UCD and the world recognition they achieve, how can we broaden the scope of recruitment? If someone was trained at UCD, he or she is almost at the top of the pile straight away. That is not just the case in Ireland, but globally. I would hate to see that status diluted, but I would also like to see the net being cast a little wider. How can we square that circle?

We are discussing one additional school of veterinary medicine, but is there merit in having a couple of specialised schools? One could be an equine veterinary school aligned with the Irish Equine Centre, another could be for large animal specialists, etc. Could this idea be a runner? Given our world standing in the equine sphere, there is an opening for us to produce the leading equine vets in the world. I do not mean this suggestion to give the equine sector more regard than any other sector of the veterinary trade. I am just using that sector as an example, and there are many other areas where specialising could be a possibility. Along the lines of what Senator Lombard said, we could attract students from further afield than our own shores who wanted to specialise in certain areas of practice. We could be a world leader.

To be a little tongue in cheek, will Mr. Fleming send that young lad from Tullamore back up the road? We have a shortage, too.

Mr. Ian Fleming:

He is heading for America at the moment.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Then he will not be of any use to either of us.

Mr. Ian Fleming:

He will be back.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Which witnesses wishes to begin?

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

I will. We need to be clear that any accredited veterinary school has to produce a general practitioner. There is a difficulty in designing a school to produce a specific outcome. There has to be a multi-competent graduate across all the species. Fortunately or unfortunately, a school designed to a specific animal purpose is not a runner because it will not get past the accreditation bodies, for example, the Veterinary Council of Ireland, VCI, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, RCVS, or the European Association of Establishments for Veterinary Education, EAEVE. You are allowed to develop specialisations post qualification, but not ahead of qualification. In my case, I specialise in embryo work in pedigree cattle, but as an undergraduate, I had to qualify to be capable to work across cats, dogs, horses, pigs, sheep, cattle, the works. That has not changed. That requirement is still there.

Mr. Liam Moriarty:

It is a question of how to achieve different outcomes with what people do post graduation. That is a difficult area to tackle. The shortage of vets is a worldwide problem that spans the industry, but particularly in rural areas. We note that UL, with its medicine programme, has a professor of rural medicine and places its students in rural GP practices. I believe that, in percentage terms, it has twice the number of graduates working in general practice compared with other universities, as it has placed an emphasis on general practice. We could achieve the same by placing an emphasis on where people are going to practice when they finish college.

Part will be intake, part will be teaching methods and part will be the question of where they spend their time in university. If university students spend a significant portion of time in a particular type of practice, there is a good chance they will go on to work in that type of practice. UL has a fantastic track record of working with industry. They have achieved it in medicine and we see the university as a strong contender to have a different spectrum of graduates who will work where they are needed the most.

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

As Mr. Moriarty stated, there is clear evidence on the medical side that how students are trained and the practice placements they are exposed to has a big influence on the eventual outcome. Therefore if students from rural areas tend to be selected and exposed to front-line rural practice, there is a higher likelihood of them going back to work in rural communities. What attracted us to UL initially was that we wanted to study the graduate medical programme as it was quite innovative and the outcomes were different from many of the other medical courses. As Mr. Moriarty said, 40% of UL's graduates go into general practice as opposed to the national average of approximately 20%. On the veterinary side, we also see the need to get multi-competent first-line clinicians who will be capable of going into the predominant practice type, that is mixed practice. They need to be competent across all the species, at least initially. If they want to specialise subsequently, that is also fine. There is also an issue arising at the moment that practice owners and employers are finding graduates will not work in certain areas. They choose not to do cattle work or equine work or not to do out-of-hours obstetric calls for large animals. That is causing considerable difficulties in running practice rotas because it puts an uneven share of the work, usually on the practice owner.

Mr. Liam Moriarty:

Unfortunately that can be a vicious circle. If there are not enough people in a practice, it is unattractive for people to join. In a rural practice that was a five-person practice and is now a three-person practice, those three people are covering the 24-hour on-call rota. To join that practice is less attractive. We need more graduates who are interested in working in these practices.

Mr. Ian Fleming:

Out-of-hours services are a big issue because it is a regulation issue. A veterinary practice cannot be run without providing out-of-hours services or a practice that is not providing them must direct its clients to where they can get that service within a reasonable distance. It is part of the Veterinary Council licensing system. Out-of-hours work is in the legislation. This is a big issue, especially, as I said, in rural areas. A number of facilities are available in urban areas where a night service is available and practitioners who are doing the day job are not involved. However, they are not available in rural communities or farming practices. Therefore when a farmer has a cow calving in the middle of the night, the vet is the out-of-hours fella, but he or she is working the following day as well. We have plenty of females who are well able to manage in that area. Those are the issues. At the moment, there is a risk that if we do not get a correction quickly services will be disrupted, especially in remote rural areas. That is an alarm bell. We need action and we need it quickly. Sitting on this will not serve anyone well. We know there is a lot of work to be done to change the surrounds, but the first part is to get a new veterinary school started as quickly as possible that is based on merit and on the scope of the college to produce enough graduates to make the course sustainable. Those are the immediate issues. That is probably the kernel of what we are here to talk about today.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I also welcome the guests. They have already answered some of my questions. They stated that UCD produces 70 graduates per year, which is only a quarter of what is needed so there is a shortfall of more than 200. Did they also say that some vets are coming from Africa or other foreign countries?

Mr. Ian Fleming:

Irish people are going to eastern Europe to get educated, which accounts for approximately 120 vets. We are also getting other Europeans, usually, because they need to be accredited by the European Association of Establishment for Veterinary Education, EAEVE, to go on the register here. We also get vets coming from other parts of the world.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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From the 280 we need every year, what kind of shortfall is there?

Mr. Ian Fleming:

In 2022, some 222 people - the figure is easy to remember - who were educated abroad came onto the register. More than 100 vets have joined the register so far in 2023 and no one has graduated yet from UCD so we will be in the same ballpark range again. As the Deputy will see from the graph, this has been rising year on year, except for the blip after the financial collapse in 2008. That caused a blip for seven or eight years. We are on a rising programme at the moment. The demand is rising and the Covid-19 pandemic accelerated that rise because the number of companion animals increased. Specifically, our programme is to deal with what we see as a threat to rural communities and to the food industry, that is, a shortfall of vets. They are the issues.

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

The other thing we are here for is to highlight the unjust situation whereby 600 Irish children have had to leave the country to receive a veterinary education. That is a massive disruption to those children, their families and friends and their social and sporting lives. We would like to see that resolved so they can find a place to receive that education in their own country and not have to travel significant distances at significant cost to themselves and their families. We would like to see that resolved. Up to this point in time, those students have not had any voice. No one has been here to fight their corner or point out that they are out there in large numbers. That was a major motivation in bringing us to this campaign.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Are the witnesses working on the assumption that most vets are coming in to treat small animals? Do they have any suggestions or theories about what would get more of them to treat large animals? Could some scheme or system be put in place? There is a shortage of vets for larger animals. Could something be put in place?

Mr. Liam Moriarty:

The shortage is across the entire industry. We are also short in the companion animal side, but it will be most acutely felt in rural practices. Training methods could be changed and more places created. If 1,200 students apply for 82 places in UCD, we are getting the people who are top of the top academically. There is nothing wrong with that. It is a tough degree. People need to be strong academically to get through it. However, I am sure that many more of the 1,200 would have the smarts to get through that degree.

Students have to go to Dublin. Having a place in the west of Ireland would be a big advantage. We want these people to work in the west of Ireland. Let us train them there. They are going to the UK, eastern Europe or Dublin to train. UL has thought about this in medicine and has achieved success in getting a different outcome for their students. Medical students who graduate from UL are more likely to go into general practice than those who graduate from other universities. We are looking at a university that has a track record of doing it. It has been done here. It has been thought about and it has been successful. I think UL would also be successful if it had a veterinary programme. It has huge support. We had meetings with UL and people who work in all the different parts of the industry, including companion animals, equine and rural practices.

It really has taken into consideration what we would like to see in the graduates so there would be a great complementary service to UCD.

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

We were very lucky early on in this process to come across Professor Matt Jones in the UK. He has been involved in the set up of the last two vet schools in the UK - Surrey and the Harper and Keele Veterinary School. The rationale for the Harper and Keele Veterinary School is to produce more people to go into food production animal veterinary so he is an expert on designing educational means of selection and student education to produce that outcome. He has also been very involved in the UL bid and has provided the technical advice to it on how you design a course to produce a vet who will work with farm animals at the end of it if that is what you need.

Mr. Ian Fleming:

Regarding cost, there is no cheap fix in veterinary education. Veterinary education is the second most expensive education system for professionals in the world. It is not an Irish thing; this is across the world. We follow dentists as being the most expensive course because there is such a hands-on element to it and the accreditation requires all those hands-on parts. It is very complicated. It is not simple. From what Matt Jones told us, we know the ball park figure for veterinary courses across the UK and into Ireland is between €20,000 and €30,000 per student per annum so it is a major cost.

We know there were a couple of start ups in the UK, one of which was in Lancashire and it was supposed to manage on a small budget but before it ever got into it, and it is only into it now, it had to increase the demand. We need to be very aware of the costing and what the right cohort and volume are. Where is the sweet place in terms of numbers of students? The sweet point is between 100 and 150 students. With this, you get the maximum return out of what are very specialised and very expensive educators within the system. There is no cheap fix here.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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With the Veterinary Medicinal Products, Medicated Feed and Fertilisers Regulation Bill 2023 going through, we have received a number of phone calls from vets, particularly during the week. They are worried that some of the big co-ops will hire their two or three vets and it will do away with veterinary practices. Have the witnesses any worries that if this happens, younger people will not go into the profession because a practice will not be viable if big co-ops-----

Mr. Liam Moriarty:

That would not really be our remit. Our working group is very focused on the shortage of vets and a new course to train more of them.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Do the witnesses have a view? Could it affect it? If the witnesses cannot answer it-----

Mr. Ian Fleming:

It is not really for us to say. It is a major issue. The Veterinary Council is dealing with it and that is where we stand. We know there are strong feelings on this and it is a matter of getting the right result for the community at large in the public interest.

Over the past 18 months, we looked at education systems in veterinary education around the world. We had contact with universities in Wellington in New Zealand, Melbourne in Australia, New Jersey in the US and Utrecht in the Netherlands along with Denmark, Norway and Great Britain. What we see is that at the end of the day, they all have a similar story to tell but there is a revolution in the process in education in the veterinary world. We may be lagging behind slightly the medical world, which is also in that evolutionary stage, where we need people who will stay in practice. We have two problems, one of which is recruitment while the other is retention. We know the figures coming out of UCD from a scope last year show that on average, graduates will stay in practice for seven years, which is very poor value for money given the cost of producing them. We see this as a significant issue here in terms of public funding and we want the best result for the public, the profession and the community, particularly in the farming world because we are aware of the pressures it is under.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome our guests, who are clearly very passionate about the subject. I read in an interview with Mr. Fleming in the Irish Examiner today that there are major issues. The headline of the article was "Retirements and a lack of newly qualified vets leave profession in crisis". We have got the message loud and clear.

The question must then be asked as to what the Veterinary Council thinks of this and what has it done about it. I would like to put this question to the witnesses. Some weeks ago, I was in Mountbellew Agricultural College at the launch of the book about the famous Aleen Cust, who was the first female vet in Ireland. She was a very impressive woman who spent a long period of her practice in Mountbellew, was involved in the 1916 Rising and looked after many of the horses used at various stations. She also spent some time in the UK. She was a remarkable woman who had to study medicine before she could study veterinary medicine because she was not accepted into a veterinary college in this country. We spoke earlier about the naming of the children's hospital. It struck me as I was coming down here that I would certainly be a strong advocate of calling any new veterinary hospital or faculty in this country after Aleen Cust, the most famous and most remarkable of women who made such an enormous contribution to veterinary medicine. I have some copies of the book about her in my office that I will certainly circulate to members of the committee.

Looking at the witnesses' presentation, a few issues arise. Going back to Aleen Cust, I met a few vets at the launch of the book about her. One vet told me that veterinary training is not fit for purpose and that we need a new model of veterinary training. There is particular concern about large animal practice - not small animal practice or practice in urban settings. This vet spoke about issues in the west of Ireland in particular and the challenges around that. This man is a practising vet whose son is in the business but has left large animal practice because he says it simply does not pay and you could have a handy number five days a week in a small animal practice with four vets making a lot of money in a shop on the main street in the west of Ireland - happy days - so he said that was his option. This option is also more family-friendly and you can get a bit of consultancy work on the side. UCD has 82 training places so we clearly do not have enough.

It strikes me that the UL model is a great opportunity. I would also like to think that we would look at North-South cross-Border. I would like to look at the figures there and see what greater co-operation could take place North-South. It is an option we should always pursue because it makes a lot of sense. In the witnesses' submission, they state that UL is committed to promoting changes to entry requirements for the new veterinary school and a new education model. These are the same words I heard from the vets at the Aleen Cust book launch. Clearly we must look at the model and the new type of training model so I would like to hear about that. How would it differ from the model in UCD?

I also asked the vet about veterinary technicians and whether the veterinary profession is resistant to auxiliary vets or veterinary technicians. I am not here to diminish the noble profession that is veterinary medicine and its professional requirements but is there a role for enhanced veterinary technicians to work with large animals as a stand-alone recognised noble profession because I think there is?

The management of animals is not all medical; there are technicalities and administrative elements. Traditionally, many farmers administered veterinary practices to their animals. Perhaps the Veterinary Ireland union and the Veterinary Council have issues around that. It is a debate for another day. I believe there is a role for veterinary technicians through a module, training programme or apprenticeship programme. There is something in that. Is there such a thing? What is the buy-in and support for that? I welcome the idea; it is wonderful. I happen to know the chancellor of the University of Limerick very well, as do many of us. The witnesses are pushing an open door. It is to be welcomed and makes absolute sense. People are competing; there is no health professions admission test, HPAT, like there is in medicine. Many academic people get into veterinary college. I would love to know how many fall back out, discovering after three years it is not for them. Perhaps the organisations have done research into that. They are pushing an open door. I am very supportive; I think everyone here is. The University of Limerick is an option but North-South is an important option too. Will the witnesses discuss the issues around veterinary technicians and the role they could play in assisting vets or taking some of the pressure off the demand?

Mr. Ian Fleming:

I thank the Senator for his questions. On the question regarding the shared island, it is hugely important because diseases do not know anything about borders. Plenty of practices in the northern counties in the Republic operate in the North of Ireland andvice versa. It is an open market situation in that regard. A farmer can choose a vet from whichever side of the Border he wants. It is important that this new school be accredited through the VCI and the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, the system that operates north of the Border. We hope the new college will achieve the standards currently seen in UCD in the veterinary college. We are not here in any way to talk down UCD. It is accredited to the highest level in the world. It is accredited with the United States and Australasia. It has massive accreditation. It is squeaky-clean and above reproach in that regard. There is an issue about rural practice and where those students are from and where they will go, which we touched on. The new school may be in a position to deal with those issues. The Senator is correct that a revolution is happening in veterinary education, of which UCD is a part. It is already down that road. We need another school because, as a new beginner, it is easier to set up a system than adapt a system. That is what we see in that regard.

The shared island is important. We are aware it is part of Government policy that there is huge attention to that aspect. There is a bilateral agreement going back to the foundation of the State in which if there were education facilitates on one side of the Border and not on the other, there was a reciprocal arrangement. UCD has over the years taken a certain cohort of Northern students but it is difficult for them to get in. It is easier for them to get into UK schools so they tend to go across the water rather than coming down South. We know that the University of Limerick has been in talks; there is a lot of networking going on across that Border. They would approve greatly in the North of this new school. It would be a wonderful thing. It would set aside a cohort of places for Northern students for that purpose. We see that as the right answer to that question. I will pass to Mr. Quinn to talk about the teaching model, as he is the expert on that.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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And veterinary technicians.

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

To continue on shared island, I have friends in practice in the North who have the exact same problems as we do down here at the moment. It is difficult to recruit and retain people in large animal practices. There does not seem to be a likelihood of a new vet school in the North. At the moment, children in the North travel to the UK. It is a massive brain drain, as most of them do not return to practice in the North. There is a realisation in Northern Ireland that a second vet school down here could significantly increase the chances of retaining those kids on the island if they come South to be educated. It would reciprocate to some extent the large number of kids going from the South to the North to do pharmacy and medical courses, for example. It would be nice to see something in return down here. UL provided a commitment to reserving 10% of its places for Northern Irish students on any intake. We have been told that is acceptable North of the Border. The farming community is glad to hear it because, as I said, it has the same struggles as we do in recruiting and retaining people in large animal practice.

With regard to the role of veterinary technicians, the reality of large animal veterinary work is that considerable areas of it at the moment are done by trained, non-veterinary professionals anyway, for example, ultrasound scanning in cows. Most of the footwork in cattle is done by trained lay operators. There is a realisation in the profession that we cannot do everything. Certain areas of work are already being done to a significant extent in a co-operative manner with trained, non-veterinary professionals.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Does Mr. Quinn see that as a positive?

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

I do, yes.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is to be welcomed.

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

In my area, embryo work in cattle, there is a significant number of non-vets involved, operating under veterinary supervision and control. The system works quite well.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses. It was interesting to listen to their initial presentations and the exchanges. One thing that stood out in the discussion on recruitment and particularly retention, in terms of work vets are now willing to do, was Mr. Moriarty's mention of it being very academic-focused. Do the witnesses think there is an issue that people are points-driven going into these courses rather than necessarily wanting to be vets? People go abroad, which is almost the harder route.They take that route because they really want to become vets. Will the witnesses answer that question? In other countries, there can be a different focus in how people get into these courses.

Mr. Liam Moriarty:

Most people who get into veterinary science really want to be vets and are not just there because they managed to achieve high points. The reality is the cohort that achieves high points may be concentrated - there may be more of a base from Dublin and there are probably fewer people from rural schools. It is largely female at the moment. I think first year in UCD veterinary is 80% female. When they graduate, their intent going in may be to go into companion animal practice or equine practice more so than rural, as a generalisation. We would welcome an alternative system, for example, in a graduate entry programme, other criteria can be examined as well as points. There will be a bar required to get in that will still, academically, be very high, regardless of what is done because it is still an academically tough course to complete.

It does not need to be as high as it is. We need to look at other criteria in the context of intake. We could ask people why they want to do a course and what they hope to do at the end of it. If everybody who comes in says they would like to specialise in small animal surgery, we will know that in ten years' time we will have many small animal surgeons and not enough for cattle. We need to look at why people are going into the profession. Generally speaking, they are very committed bunch.

Mr. Ian Fleming:

As Mr. Moriarty said, this is not about downing the students. The system is not serving the profession well, and that is not serving the public well. We know this because of the drop-out rate. It is not a good way to manage the system. We have spoken to the Ministers for Education and Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. They are aware of the shortcomings of the CAO system in certain professions. We have made them aware that it is also a problem for the veterinary profession.

We have spoken to universities around the world, particularly in the UK which uses a system with a set bar that is below the maximum, which is what we are dealing with here at present with 605 points. It is an astronomical requirement to get into UCD. As Mr. Moriarty said, we cannot lower the academic bar too much. We need to retain levels, which is very important, but my view is that requiring 600 points does not necessarily mean we will get the best practitioners. We need people with practical abilities. We need aptitude testing of some type. There are systems across the water that work with a portfolio and a testing system that is simple enough. It is about communication. Practitioners spend half their time looking at the patient and half their time talking to the owner. If people are not capable-----

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise, but I may have to suspend the meeting because there is a vote in the Dáil Chamber. If it is agreed, Senator Paul Daly will take the Chair and we will continue the meeting with Senator Dooley asking his questions. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I have more comments than questions. To put my cards on the table, I fully support the approach being taken by the University of Limerick in its desire to have a veterinary school. I look at this in a number of ways. I will deal with the practical matters first.

At a time when Dublin is under enormous pressure in terms of growth and the provision of accommodation for students, UCD might put forward a good case because it has a centre that could be built onto, and others might say this sounds practical. However, we can go back to the principles established by Tom Parlon when he was Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW and Charlie McCreevy was Minister for Finance. They devolved projects outside of Dublin. It makes eminent sense to develop University of Limerick further and bring to it a discipline that is not there. If we believe in the principles of balancing development throughout the State, then Cork, Limerick or Galway should be considered. Limerick is looking for this. We will push for Limerick because of what has evolved there.

The ethos in Limerick is fantastic. It started out as a national institute for higher education. What it has succeeded in doing over a relatively short period is amazing. I did not attend the university, but I visit it on occasion for various events. I am always taken by the new developments, what it is about and where it is going. It is absolutely the right location and fits the bill in terms of regional development. I have already been lobbied and I am lobbying onwards for it to happen.

On the wider issue, I was brought up on a small farm. There was never a problem getting a vet, whether it was John Blake, Tom Hanley or the late Ed Corry. They were fine vets and great men. There is now a new group of women in the practices. We had never seen a female vet previously but there are quite a few now and they have brought a new dimension to it which is great.

I am always taken by the loss of students who have to go overseas. They come back fine vets. They go to Hungary. I meet them on flights to the Netherlands. Why have we not been able to grow this sooner? It galls me to see so many professionals having to go overseas to be trained. We can have courses for just about anything now. We are developing courses that are activation measures to keep some people busy but we will not focus on what we have and what we need. We are seeing people emigrate. We are losing them, and they might never come back.

This goes back to the point made by Deputy Farrell, and perhaps there is some validity to it. I had occasion to speak to a recently retired GP about the problems in medicine and the inability to get GPs. He told me that he would not make it as a GP now. He said he would not get into medicine. I will not name the man, but he is fine GP. Some people here know him. He is a superb GP and a fine medic, as well as a man of great personality. He said he would not get into the course now. There is a parallel with what is happening here. We are only getting the crème de la crèmeof academic brilliance at the upper end of the scale.

This is not to take from the point made by Mr. Moriarty. Some of us are not capable of being airline pilots. We can manage at a layer below that to do something else. Not everybody can be a vet. We are getting just the top students and by their nature they want to go into research. It is happening in medicine. They want to travel the world. They want to take it to the nth degree. They want to be the new pioneers on the frontiers of advancing medicine. They do not want to be a GP in Tulla or Kilfenora dealing with a scratch or a tear. It is not where they want to be. In the context of medicine and veterinary medicine, how will we find a model whereby we get the competency and do not move away from the standard but we get people who want to do this type of practice?

Is there a separate stream for large animals? There is not because there has to be a multidisciplinary approach. Should we attempt to plan for where the gaps are, knowing that we have to find a cohort? Perhaps it could be through a graduate programme for people who have studied agricultural science or people who are already in a practice of some description. I like the idea of advanced veterinary practitioners. It is happening in medicine. It is the only way we are surviving right now. It has happened in the United States. I do not know about the veterinary side but friends of mine in the United States would recognise the role of advanced nurse practitioners. They do not see GPs any more because the specialty is so great they are everybody wants to be a brain surgeon. I am being somewhat facetious in saying this but people understand what I am saying.

It is the old Einstein theory. If we keep doing the same thing and expecting it to be different next year, or that it is someone else's problem, this is the definition of madness according to Einstein. The witnesses have a great opportunity to do something different because they are starting with a clean sheet. It is difficult for the people in UCD. We are all a bit like this. I canvass in a particular way and I might not be successful on occasion. Somebody new coming to the table can choose to go a different route. The witnesses are in this position. I like what they are about and what they are trying to do. They have an opportunity not to fix it but to recognise where the system is not delivering for the needs of society. If they figure it out perhaps we can overlay it on medicine. This was more commentary than questions. If the witnesses have any responses, however, I would welcome them.

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

Senator Dooley is right. One of the problems that has evolved with entry into veterinary study is social exclusion. When I qualified 25 or 30 years ago, the phenomenon of the grind school was not there. Many people from schools throughout the country managed to get a reasonable leaving certificate and got into UCD. Those days are gone. We are looking at top-level leaving certificate results to get into the course. This may involve a couple of years in grind school, which involves a parent who can pay for that grind school and a parent who can pay for children to live in Dublin, which is one of the most expensive capital cities in Europe. Thereby, we are automatically excluding quite a lot of people who would make good vets.

As the Senator described, we need to look again at selection methods and education methods to produce someone who is happy to live and work in a rural environment. One of the things that impressed us a lot when we initially went to UL was Professor Liam Glynn and his No Doctor, No Village campaign. The veterinary problem is pan-European. There is a realisation that once you get into trouble with supplying vets to the countryside, the countryside dies. There is that phenomenon that is described in Irish as bánú na tuaithe, where the countryside withers and dies. This is because they are part of the critical rural infrastructure. No more than in the case of the rural GP, if the vet is not there, things will have to change, because you will no longer be able to get someone to calve or lamb an animal or treat a sick animal. Therefore, agriculture has to change, and maybe not in a good way, in response to those deficits.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the working group for their advocacy. They are all busy in their own practices. It is really good to see the efforts they are making.

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

To some extent, we are here to represent the people who cannot be here.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

I have friends who work in one-man and two-man practices. They are crying out for assistance and they cannot get it. They cannot be here today either, because they are on call. They will also be on call tonight, tomorrow and next weekend. The Senator knows the story.

Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, I do. There are some wonderful people and we just have to work ahead with it.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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As there are no further contributors, we will suspend until the Deputies return from the Chamber.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I lost my train of thought after the vote interrupted us. The working group for reform in Irish veterinary education was very clear in its opening statement that its preference is the University of Limerick, UL. I am interested in what it envisages in terms of the numbers of students. We see there is obviously a deficit at the moment. What levels do we need to train to ensure we meet the need, no matter where this school is?

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

We need to have approximately 100 places per year, first to provide training places for the large numbers of leaving certificate students who currently have to leave the country and second, to get into that economic sweet spot where the cost per head per student is distributed so that we are able to hire top quality staff and pay them. We need to be in the 100 to 150 student zone. It needs to be done on scale and rapidly and as far as we are concerned the only provider in the country at the moment shovel ready and at scale is UL.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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We see that so many students go to Warsaw and a lot simply do not return. What are the main reasons for the students not returning? Is it because the way they get taught there is different or because they build a life there? Is that the concern regarding that? On the 10% that UL has promised for the North is really positive and I totally agree we need to look at this on an all-island basis.

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

It is probably a mixture of factors because we have all dealt with students who trained abroad. First, those colleges are quite international so they meet students from the UK, France, Norway and Germany. Some of them decide to move elsewhere and do other things. They may have gone there initially with the dream of coming back to Ireland to be a vet but life changes and their paths change. That probably accounts for the 50% who disappear and leave Ireland, get educated abroad but do not actually come back to work here. People may change. They may go out there with one particular aspiration of the type of career or animal they want to work with and that may change. Some come back, some do not. I myself worked for eight years outside of the country. I worked in general practice in Scotland in the islands, I worked in the UK and in New Zealand but I came back eventually. One acquires extra skills.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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There is a benefit.

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

Yes there is a benefit to travelling but it would be nice if people would come back with those skills rather than go and stay gone.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Is this an issue that is specific to Ireland or is it on a more international basis in terms of the number of vets?

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

It is a pan-European problem. The Federation of Veterinarians of Europe did a study in 2020 where it surveyed all EU countries and found that 80% of rural practices across the EU were struggling to get staff.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I am quite interested in the fact that so many do not want to go into the farm side of things. The constituency I represent has Connemara and the islands. The islands often have issues in terms of getting teachers. Getting doctors is a big issue and two of the islands share a doctor and two doctors come from South Africa on a rotational basis. Is anything like that available for more rural areas that might not have access to vets?

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

Other countries have looked at different ways of solving this. Definitely if we modify the student selection process, modify how they are educated and how they are placed in practices during their education, the outcome is modified. The French have a system at the moment because despite being a vast country with huge numbers of cattle, if one looks at a map of France at the moment the cattle rearing areas are the areas they cannot get vets. Dairy production and so on up around Brittany and the north of France, the Massif Central in the middle where the Charolais, the Limousins and Salers breeds come from are struggling to get vets. The French Government has realised it has a problem and has told the veterinary schools to change their student selection and that the government will fund students who give a commitment to going back into rural practice and will encourage placements from those students while they are in training with rural practitioners to encourage the likelihood of them going back into rural practice. Again, a lot of that bears a commonality with the graduate entry medical programme in UL. UL has great experience in those types of programmes to produce graduates who are more likely to go back and work in rural environments.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Does Deputy Martin Browne want to ask a supplementary question?

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I have a quick question. I know students are trained to the highest level in Ireland. Are the qualifications required or received out foreign fully recognised in Ireland when students return? I will give the example of nurses. Some nurses have to do different training when they come back to Ireland. Are the qualifications acquired out foreign fully recognised in Ireland when students come back so they can go straight into practice without having to train again in Ireland?

Mr. Ian Fleming:

I will answer that question. I have a bit of experience in this because I am an elected member of the Veterinary Council of Ireland but I am not wearing that hat this evening. There are accreditation standards that allow people to move between countries and Europe of course has that under what it calls the European Association of Establishments for Veterinary Education, EAEVE which is the accreditation body that covers the whole of Europe. Anybody who is trained in other European countries can move into Ireland and work. If someone is coming from further afield we have an accreditation which allows students who qualify here go straight into the United States and Canada and vice versa. They do not tend to come vice versa but that is there. There is also the question put earlier by Deputy Mairéad Farrell about the islands and the fact there are South African doctors practising there. There is an accreditation standard with one of the veterinary schools in South Africa. Those elements are there and it is a two-way street.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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It seems so to me.

Mr. Ian Fleming:

There is. Anybody who comes from outside of that accreditation standard will more than likely have sit an exam in order to pass and be able to work in Ireland. Otherwise they will not get registered. That is the general aim of it.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses and apologies we had to step outside. I picked up on Mr. Fleming's points. He said his whole argument is merit-based. Four universities have a pitch in and I am sure they are very detailed,based on the previous ones. I am a little concerned that everything has been staked on Limerick and I hoped he might have gone into more detail and set us apart why Limerick as opposed to the other universities. He referenced it to some degree but I do not think he give us substantive evidence why it should be the University of Limerick as opposed to the other universities.

Mr. Liam Moriarty:

I will answer that question. We see UL as the speediest option and the most likely. We would welcome more than one university carrying a veterinary degree but the problem exists now. There is a crisis now. Those 20% to 22% of practitioners who are over 60 years old now, in 2030 they are likely not going to be working in practice.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. Moriarty's argument about scale and speed?

Mr. Liam Moriarty:

Speed is really important. The second-----

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Can Mr. Moriarty assure us that speed does not come at the expense of the right location?

Mr. Liam Moriarty:

We would say that is one argument. A further argument is that in order to train vets we need specialised academic staff.

It is necessary, therefore, to be able to attract those people. The location and academic standing of the institution they go to will matter. It is not a case of a vet being able to go in and train other vets. We are usually talking about someone with additional qualifications. There will be a challenge in this regard. UL's track record with medicine, what has been done in that context, and its track record of working with industry were important points for us. The veterinary profession is made up of a wider group and UL asked all of us what it could do. We know it has a great track record of doing that with other industries. Several factors, therefore, caused us to conclude that UL was the best place. Now, we have no personal stake in UL being the location. I work in Dublin and live in County Meath.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Moriarty does not have a Limerick jersey on underneath.

Mr. Liam Moriarty:

Absolutely not.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. We agree it is a case of speed and there is a need to scale it. Everybody here agrees there is a high level of burnout among vets. It is an extremely difficult job. Especially for people with young families, it must be well-nigh impossible. With approximately 80 places in UCD for training vets, Mr. Moriarty has quite rightly pointed out that we are coming to a cliff edge with the age profile of our vets. We are going to have a major problem. The MRCVS wants to have new graduates coming out in 2030. What is the optimum number in this regard? Has the group looked at this aspect? How many new graduates do we need to be producing, bearing in mind that vets are always going to travel and go overseas? It is a good thing that they go abroad. If people spend five years training, they are going to want to travel and go and work with the best. What, then, is the optimum number of new graduates we should be producing annually?

Mr. Ian Fleming:

If the committee looks at the column graph in the document we have submitted to it, this gives an idea of the averages in this regard. We got 80 graduates from UCD in 2022 who came on the register. Some of those were people who had gone abroad for two or three years and then came back, while some of them were fresh graduates. This is not all about fresh graduates but about new registrants. It can be seen in this context that we did well. We had 82 who qualified and we got 80 on the register. This is excellent. There were years, however, in the last decade when we did not get those kinds of numbers.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the point I am trying to get to is, looking at our profile and the number of farms vis-à-visother countries, what is the optimum number of graduate vets we need to be producing, given the age profile and to avoid this cliff-edge scenario? Obviously, we all agree that 80 to 82 is not the right number. What should it be?

Mr. Ian Fleming:

What we are looking at now is that there were 302 new registrants last year. This just gives us an indication in this regard. If we were to get another 100 in training, we would be hoping that we would get 100 who would go onto the register here. That would mean a total of 180. It would mean we would still be 120 short, but we would be making inroads into the deficit. If we can deal with the retention issues, and this is a major aspect, perhaps we would start to lower the top end of the requirement. The figures might start to drop.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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We should be providing places for 300 people then.

Mr. Ian Fleming:

I think that would be optimal under today's conditions, but it would be difficult to make an argument about spending public money now to achieve this initially. We might have to step-----

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. We might have to step it up.

Mr. Ian Fleming:

There are issues here, as can be seen. The impact of Covid-19 in 2020 affected the numbers because of the lack of travel opportunities. This meant we went way down in the number of vets who came in from foreign parts. We then went above the averages. If we were drawing a straight line across the top of the chart, we would see the rising numbers meant we went above it. We went above it even more in 2022. Is this situation going to continue or will the numbers level off? These are things we do not know. In respect of doing this, 40 places will not show anything on that graph, whereas having 100 places will show a huge improvement-----

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, but I am just conscious of my time. I ask the witnesses to indulge me in addressing two more points, if that is okay with the Cathaoirleach.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Go on, Deputy.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. I appreciate it. We have a centre of excellence in UCD and there will always be a concern in this regard. If parents have a child who wants to become a vet, they will want their little Johnny to go to UCD, no matter if we have a new institution. There will always be an element of this attitude. The MRCVS is coming at this issue from the best interests of its members' profession and they want to get vets into the community, but we have a centre of excellence at UCD. Does the group not see a problem where it is going to be hard to recruit academic staff to the level and standard we will require for this new institution at another location to be comparable with UCD? I ask this given that most people will tell us that in any industry the biggest thing required to attract people to a location is lifestyle. Do the witnesses not envisage a problem with the academic profile in respect of the expertise needed at a start-up location?

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

Given the world university ranking and the research history of UL, we would not anticipate any problems with staff recruitment. The first thing most academics will look at is what will this university do for my career, in respect of what is its research history and the likelihood of academic advancement if they take a job there. Of the candidates on the field pitching for this new vet school, UL is far ahead in its attractiveness to any potential academic.

Mr. Liam Moriarty:

I will add that one of the challenges we face here on the companion animal side is a lack of specialists. There is a consultant-level vet who will do higher work. I believe there are many Irish graduates who have become specialists and who work outside the country who would welcome an opportunity to work in UL or another location in Ireland outside UCD. There are not many places for people who have this level of qualification to work in Ireland, so this could be a very positive development.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Very good. This is a very parochial setting. Everyone will make a pitch for the university closest to them. Unfortunately, I do not think our university in the midlands has made a play for this new institution. Thinking hypothetically, however, if this endeavour got to the point where it was not just UL but UL and another institution, along with UCD, would the witnesses think such a situation would dilute the prospects in this regard? Is it a case of two locations rather than three?

Mr. Liam Moriarty:

I would start with two-----

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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If that happened, though, would Mr. Moriarty be concerned? I come back to my earlier point regarding trying to attract the required academic personnel.

Mr. Ian Fleming:

I suppose we do not want to trawl the pond with two institutions at the start. It would be more sensible to put them in a single file. There might be space for a second trawl after the first institution was set up, whatever that takes. Again, we talked about scale and this aspect is greatly important from what we have learned around the world. It is significant. All these issues must be considered. The university that gives us the required scale now is UL. It is the college that has the ability to deliver this scale. It would seem to be common sense, therefore, to say this would be a good place to start. If we needed to then, and we probably will need to, we will promote a third school. This was a conversation we had with the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris. We are, obviously, not expecting the State to drum up the type of funds required for three courses to be up and running.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Again, I am conscious of time. To conclude, the advice from the MRCVS would be that the prudent approach would be to go with a second location and then further down the road, if needs be, to look at a third location. The prudent advice from the profession now, though, is to go with a second location only.

Mr. Ian Fleming:

I think this is the immediate priority. Scale is also so important.

Joe Flaherty (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Would Deputy McNamara like to say anything?

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Apologies for not being here at the outset.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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We are over time but we will give the Deputy five minutes.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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I will not even take five minutes. I apologise again. The Agricultural and Food Supply Chain Bill 2022 was being discussed. It is unfortunate these topics were scheduled together, but they were. I do not know if the point I am about to make has already been discussed, but if it has I ask the Cathaoirleach to stop me. I refer to the model adopted in the medical school in UL. Instead of being limited to the situation in traditional medical faculties where people did their practical experience in the hospitals, many people training in UL medical school also did their practical experience in GP practices as well. I understand much of the practical experience in veterinary training in UCD is in the veterinary hospital, which is of course great. For many young vets, though, this means they have no exposure to large animal practices in rural Ireland.

Is that something our guests think would be important to be incorporated? Are veterinary practices across the country prepared to work with any of the candidate universities, UL or the others? There is a large equine industry in parts of Ireland. Are representatives of the industry willing to partner with any of the schools if they are successful in their bid? The equine and agriculture industries most require the services of large animal veterinarians.

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

The Deputy is right. To produce a different outcome, one has to adopt a different method of education. One thing UL has committed to is the distributed hybrid model, similar to what is running in the most recent UK schools, whereby there is more practitioner involvement in the education, to include embedded periods of student experience with affiliated practices. UL has signed a number of memorandums of understanding with XLVets, which is the biggest independent assembly of mixed animal veterinary practices in the country. It also has organisations such as Linnaeus, in which Mr. Moriarty is involved, on board. It has Coolmore as a centre of excellence for equine medicine. It also has local practitioners, including Rockhall Vets, running five small animal clinics across Limerick city. UL would be able to provide extensive placement on the front line for students if there were a new school there.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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I have another question and please stop me if the issue has already been covered. Is it envisaged that the school or schools that are established would cater only to Irish students? We cannot differentiate between Irish and other EU students so I will ask if the school will cater to EU students, the vast majority of whom we might expect to be Irish. Is it envisaged the school would also cater for non-EU students who pay far higher fees? In our medical schools, that is a source of revenue. I know that is a secondary consideration in respect of why the witnesses are before the committee. They see a need for vets here in Ireland. As a corollary to the question, would some of the schools be more likely to attract those kinds of students than others, if that is not an unfair question?

Mr. Ian Fleming:

That depends on accreditation. UCD has an accreditation complement with the USA, Canada and other areas of the world. Accreditation is hugely important. That is a big issue.

I am having a senior moment and apologise to the Deputy. What else did he ask about?

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Would the new school attract only EU students or would it cater to-----

Mr. Jimmy Quinn:

It would be an option down the line. The initial problem we are trying to resolve is that 600 students are mainly in eastern Europe. We need to find places here for Irish students after the leaving certificate. American Veterinary Medical Association, AMVA, accreditation will take approximately ten years. A school needs to be up and running for a substantial period before it would get that accreditation. This is beyond our remit today but the option would be there. We see no reason why Limerick could not become a centre of excellence for veterinary education for bovines, equines and food production animals. It could offer a top-level international standard of education.

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today. They have made a comprehensive argument for the need for a second school and for Limerick as a location that would fit symmetrically with our needs. As they said, it has a proven track record in medicine, which is an important factor in the establishment of a veterinary school that will need a high academic reputation if it is to be successful. Our guests have put forward a good argument. The committee will be fully endorsing the need for a second veterinary school. The Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science will be making the decision about the location. There is universal agreement across all strands that a second veterinary school is needed. Four have applied and we have heard from various witnesses over the past two weeks. The witnesses have put forward a convincing and comprehensive argument. I thank them.