Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. As they will know, this is due the constitutional requirement that to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Parliament.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness and is accompanied today by Mr. Andrew Harkness, director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This morning we will engage with the University of Limerick to examine its financial statements for 2021. This business is resumed because we have previously been here on these statements.

We are joined this morning by representatives from UL: Professor Kerstin Mey, president, uachtarán; Professor Shane Kilcommins, provost; Ms Rosemary Fogarty, financial controller; Mr. Bobby O'Connor, director of human resources; and Mr. John Kelly, corporate secretary. We are also joined by the following officials from the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science - Departments' names are getting longer: Mr. Paul Lemass, head of corporate services and capital division; and Ms Elaine McWeeney, assistant principal, programme development, governance and development unit. They are all very welcome.

I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobiles are switched off or on silent mode.

I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. As today's witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of any presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse that privilege, and it is my duty to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks, and it is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

To begin, I call the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The total income of the University of Limerick group for the accounting year 2020-21 was just under €310 million. Some €97 million of that comprised recurrent State grants and pension funding. Academic fees amounted to €120 million, with 30% of that received directly from the Higher Education Authority. Research income recognised in the year was €35 million, including more than €23 million from State sources. Total expenditure of the group for the year was €301 million. Pay and pension costs accounted for €211 million of that. The group surplus for the year was €7.9 million, an increase of €4 million when compared with the previous year.

I issued a clear audit opinion on the financial statements. However, as was the case for other universities, my audit report drew attention to the deferred pension funding asset recognised in the group statement of financial position at the end of September 2021. The group's outstanding liabilities associated with accumulated pension entitlements of current and former staff were estimated to amount to just over €1 billion. The State will cover the liabilities attaching to the post-2012 pension scheme under specific statutory provisions at an estimated cost of €59 million. For the purposes of the financial statements, the university assumes the State will also fund the remaining €944 million of liabilities associated with earlier pension schemes and explains the basis for this in note 27. My report also drew attention to the disclosure of expenditure of just over €550,000 incurred by the university on procurement which was not in compliance with the relevant procurement procedures.

Members may wish to note that I signed off on the university's consolidated 2021-22 annual financial statements in the past week. They will be presented to the Oireachtas Library in due course.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I am grateful for the committee's invitation to attend today. I acknowledge the work many members have already committed in support of our endeavours at the University of Limerick. Although the role of the committee is to challenge, we have been fortunate also to receive its support.

I am happy to tell the committee that since I last addressed it, the University of Limerick is a much-changed institution. The implementation of significant changes to our operational model and our institutional culture have required resolute action. I am grateful to the Minister and the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, the Higher Education Authority, HEA, and indeed the Members of the Oireachtas, including the members of this committee, who have supported this reform agenda. I particularly want to mark the work that has been done, often beyond duty, by the UL faculty and staff in supporting reform in our governance, performance and standards. All of us are motivated by the firm belief that the most sustainable force in social, economic, environmental and cultural development is education.

It is my wish that the committee views my pride in the achievements of our graduates as a signal of intent from which we hope to serve this country into the future. Members of the committee will see a series of deliverable actions in our planning, each of which is geared towards supporting enterprise and social and cultural development over the coming months.

It has not been an easy task to tackle the governance, performance and systems issues I faced when I took on the responsibility as interim president and then as president just over two and a half years ago. Though there is a journey yet to travel, I am pleased to tell the committee today that major change has been delivered. A clear acknowledgement of this change has been signalled by the decision of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, based on the advice and assurance given by the Higher Education Authority, to release devolved capital funding which had been withheld pending the reform of our governance practices. Of relevance to the committee's remit to scrutinise public finances, I am happy to report that our recurrent and capital expenditure confirms prudence, sustainability and confidence in how the University of Limerick is now run.

Providing accommodation for students so they can focus on learning, on their personal growth and on contributing to their communities has remained a key focus of our endeavours since we were founded in 1972. Shortages in housing also impede us recruiting international researchers and faculty. Welcome progress is being made to increase the number of beds available for the next academic year, in partnership with our colleagues in the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Limerick City and County Council, the Housing Finance Agency and our communities.

Student experience and student success are for me the most significant measures of our performance and we are proud to see more than 2,600 students being placed annually in high-performing organisations, regionally, nationally, and internationally, through our co-operative education programme. We maintain the largest Erasmus+ programme of all Irish universities, and more than 96% of our graduates are in employment or further education within nine months of leaving UL.

I am pleased to report that we are the first higher education institution in Ireland to have achieved the Athena SWAN silver award, which confirms UL as a leader in embedding gender equality across all levels of the institution. The Kemmy Business School has also won the Athena SWAN silver award, making it the first Irish business school to do so. We are committed to continuing our work to strengthen inclusion, leadership and co-creation throughout the university. Our recent achievements were built on the strong foundation established by UL. I acknowledge today the leadership of successive governing authorities and of faculty, staff and students in laying the groundwork for these achievements.

Ensuring the university continues to thrive has required the eradication of practices which had developed over time and which were not in line with good governance principles. Members will be aware I undertook to the governing authority, and echoed to committee, my commitment to make the necessary changes to both structure and personnel to ensure the university operated to the very highest standards of accountability, transparency and probity. The magnitude of the issues, which I as president was required to address, to implement the learnings from past mistakes has been difficult for UL and for me personally. Upon taking office, it became abundantly clear to me that the very reputation of this institution was itself under threat. Change and decisive action were necessary. I am aware that certain actions, commissioned by past and current governing authorities, demanded the implementation of robust and, at times, radical measures.

The significant issues raised by this committee had to be tackled as a matter of urgency. I am satisfied that the reforms were not undertaken to punish. They were directed at improving the governance standards and operational performance of this institution and at restoring the trust and confidence of our stakeholders. I am further satisfied they have been properly facilitated through investing in organisational change to foster distributed leadership and open dialogue, transparency and accountability.

Change is difficult at the best of times. It can provoke anxiety and, sometimes, frictions and counter-reactions by those affected by or opposed to necessary and agreed reforms. We take very seriously genuine concerns raised by colleagues and external stakeholders and act upon them resolutely. However, we cannot allow ourselves to be distracted by insincere attempts to divert our attention from improving and strengthening the University of Limerick. We must focus on the future.

It is my pleasure to assure the committee we are delivering to a standard of excellence in the role entrusted to us under law. I am hugely proud of what we and our graduates have achieved since 1972. I know we will continue to deliver for Ireland’s economic, social and cultural progress, setting this country apart as a leader in higher education, research and talent. I acknowledge the support of the Oireachtas acting as the representative of the people of this great nation.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome Professor Mey, her colleagues from UL and the officials from the Department. I want to start with the KPMG report. I know there are limitations to getting into specific detail. Will Professor Mey briefly outline why there are restrictions?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Yes, I am happy to be here today to give an account of what the university has done in relation to the KPMG report. As the Deputy will be aware, there are restrictions being imposed on us about what we can talk about in the report because of legal proceedings.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is because of legal proceedings. I thank Professor Mey for that. Will Professor Mey confirm that she as president has seen the KPMG report?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I can assure Deputy Brady that I have seen the report, yes.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Has everyone on the governing authority seen the report?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The Deputy may be aware that our legal advice, which has been very robust, has been that the dissemination of that report has to be absolutely limited. Therefore, the governing authority has not seen the KPMG report.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay. Is it the case, therefore, that only Professor Mey has seen the report?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I have seen the report. There are three members on the panel here who have seen the report. The head of the audit and risk committee, who, sadly, has passed away since then, had also seen the report. This makes up six people in total.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I assume there were recommendations in the report.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The KPMG report made six recommendations that we have had sight of. We have now fully implemented them into our policies, procedures and processes.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The governing authority, without seeing those recommendations, is probably oblivious as to what recommendations have or have not been implemented. Professor Mey is saying that recommendations have been fully implemented.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I assure the Deputy that we have implemented the recommendations that have arisen from the KPMG report. The governing authority has approved the policies and procedures that have been implemented.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay. I want to go back to the issue of the Opera Site. We know UL was deeply invested in the process of trying to acquire the Opera Site. The finance, human resources and asset management committee, FHRAMC, gave approval for up to €5 million to be spent on the acquisition of the site and preparing it to get to planning stage. Would it be the normal procedure for the approval of funding like that to go through that committee?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

For the University of Limerick it has been a long-standing strategic desire to be placed in the centre of the city of Limerick to execute our civil and civic mission to support the city in its transformation as well as to ensure the highest quality of student experience-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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But is it the case that the normal process for approving that would be to go through that committee for authorisation?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

There are now formalised processes in place.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about at that time. That would have been the process.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The normal process would have been that it would go through the governing authority for approval. We have acknowledged the shortcomings in procedures and practice.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It only went through the governing authority. Would it not need to go through finance, human resources and the asset management committee?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

That is correct.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It would.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

A procedure to get these processes approved as best practice would have to go through the committee, but ultimately, it is the governing authority that has the right to approve.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Ultimately, having gone through that particular committee, and possibly others. So, €5 million was authorised. In terms of preparing the papers to get to a point where the university was actively trying to acquire the Opera site, how much was spent by UL on the preparatory work for the bid?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I do not have a figure in my head, but my colleague, Professor Kilcommins, may.

Professor Shane Kilcommins:

I was actually involved in that bid. It was a higher education strategic infrastructure fund, HESIF, bid for a future skills academy that was linking in very much with the national skills strategy. What we had envisaged there, as part of that project in a comprehensive bid that was put in, was up to 2,000 students, but the cost-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about the finance, not what was being envisaged. Do we have an idea of how much was actually spent in preparing that?

Professor Shane Kilcommins:

I have the costings in terms of what we were proposing but I do not know how much was actually spent.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We do not know how much was spent. We know that from 2017 on, a figure of €1.7 million was spent on external consultants. Were external consultants involved in the process around the Opera site bid?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We are a large organisation of 2,000 staff and 18,500 students.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that but I am trying to establish how much money was spent - which was UL funding and taxpayers' funding - in trying to acquire the Opera site. Do we have those figures? If we do not have them now, can we get them before the end of the meeting?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We can. We do not have the process figures but-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That would be useful. We know that an application was made to the Higher Education Authority for funding to progress that site.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

That is correct.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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When was that application submitted to the HEA?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

As my colleague, Professor Kilcommins, has already outlined, we made an application under the HESIF for a skills academy to go into the Opera site in order to deliver advanced programmes.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Do we have a date when that application went in?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The date that the application went into the HEA was 2 April.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I will come back to that in a minute. We know that ultimately, when the Dunnes Stores site came on stream, and I will get into that in more detail, the Opera site bid was dropped. At that point, UL withdrew its interest. Were any financial penalties imposed on UL at that point, or at any point since, for withdrawing from the process?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

There were no financial penalties imposed on our withdrawal.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is fair enough. The proposal for the acquisition of the Dunnes Stores site came about very quickly after previous attempts. Was a proposal brought before the finance, human resources and asset management committee in relation to the Dunnes Stores site?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

As Deputy Brady will be aware, the university has had a long-standing interest to be in the city centre and also-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I think that has already been established from previous engagements with the Committee of Public Accounts. That has been established. I am just trying to find out whether a proposal came before the finance, human resources and asset management committee similar to the proposal that came before it for the Opera site. Was a similar proposal submitted to the committee for the Dunnes Stores site?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Different sites were discussed at the finance, human resource and asset management committee but the proposal for the acquisition of the Dunnes Stores site went straight to the governing authority.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am in possession of the proposal that came before the governing authority. When did it come before the governing authority?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The proposal was presented on 5 April 2019.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. So, three days after the application was submitted to the HEA for the Opera site, a proposal came before the governing authority?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

That is correct.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I presume the proposal that came before the governing authority at that particular meeting was an agenda item for the meeting?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The proposal was tabled at a meeting of the governing authority.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was it an agenda item for that particular meeting?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

No.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It was not? Okay.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I think we are getting into processes.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am trying to establish facts, Professor Mey. It was not an agenda item for that particular meeting. We have some of the minutes and it appears that the proposal for the Dunnes Stores site was brought up under any other business, AOB.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Look, we have acknowledged the weaknesses of the processes and procedures.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am just trying to establish the facts.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy is asking a direct question. We have clarified that the item was not on the agenda. Was the item tagged on, under AOB, at the end of the meeting: "Yes" or "No"? That is the question the Deputy is asking. It is a very direct question.

Mr. John Kelly:

As I understand matters, the former president of the university contacted the chancellor of the university and requested that the matter be added to the agenda, and did that via the corporate secretary's office.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Just to clarify, the former deputy president-----

Mr. John Kelly:

The former president.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The former president; thank you.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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When was that request made?

Mr. John Kelly:

I do not know exactly but a number of days before the meeting-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The proposal itself is very limited. It is a two-page proposal. Do we know when it was drafted?

Mr. John Kelly:

I am afraid I do not know when it was drafted but it was tabled on the day of the governing authority meeting.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It was presented under AOB at that particular meeting.

Mr. John Kelly:

I think it is fair to say-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In my view, the proposal that was presented tries to portray that due diligence was carried out on the site. Indeed, underlined and in bold text, it states significant advantages of this over the Opera site are both the potential for future development and the ability to deliver very quickly a fully functioning building. As part of the process in bringing that proposal forward, was an engineer's report presented in tandem with it?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Deputy Brady has seen the KPMG report. He will be aware of the procedural and process issues identified, that we have now addressed in implementing-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is fair enough. I am just trying to establish facts.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

-----a policy for the acquisition of buildings and infrastructure.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am just trying to establish facts. Was an engineer's report produced in advance of this proposal?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can anybody answer that question?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is a very straightforward question.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There was a proposal brought before the governing authority on the day before, under AOB, to spend €8.3 million on a building which was registered on the derelict sites register. What the Deputy is trying to find out, and what the committee wants to know, is whether there was a quantity surveyor's report, an architect's report, an engineer's report, or a technical report of any kind. Can anybody answer that question for the Deputies?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

Members will have seen, from the report, that there were various engineering reports. I guess the recommendations from the KPMG report are the main thing in the context of-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry, Mr. O'Connor, but I am conscious of time. I know that subsequently, different engineering reports were produced in late May-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will state what we are trying to find out and will give the Deputy an extra couple of minutes. At the point at which the proposal was brought before the governing authority, was technical assessment carried out, whether an architect's report, a quantity surveyor's report or an engineer's report?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

There were some engineering reports carried out.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There were some engineering reports. Okay. Again, this report talks about limited early engineering assessment. In my view, that does not constitute an engineer’s report, so there was no proper report produced and presented to the governance authority. I think I would be safe in saying that. Was a business case presented to the governing authority or prepared in advance?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

There was a limited case made for the strategic importance of the site and presented to the governing authority.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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A limited case. Okay. Was an independent valuation carried out on the site? We know that Limerick City and County Council a number of years previously had put a value of €3 million on the site and we know Dunnes Stores was looking for €10 million for the site. Was an independent valuation carried out in preparation for presenting this to the governing authority?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

As the Deputy will be aware, Limerick City and County Council commissioned a desktop exercise in order to put the building onto the derelict buildings register, not a valuation.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am aware of that. Was an independent valuation carried out by UL before purchasing this site and before presenting the report and looking to spend €8.4 million of taxpayers’ money? Was there an independent valuation?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

As we understand it, there was a valuation tabled at the negotiation.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was there an independent valuation carried out by UL?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Was there a professional valuation? That is the question the Deputy is asking.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

There was a valuation tabled at the negotiation. As the Deputy will be aware, we do not have a written valuation in regard to the Dunnes Stores site.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to the site itself, it had been until a number of years previously operated by Dunnes Stores and zoned as retail. In terms of the engagement by UL with the local authority on the zoning of the site, what engagement had been carried out with regard to the zoning and what would be necessary in terms of change of use to education? What engagement had been carried out?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I am very pleased to report that we have fully engaged with Limerick City and County Council in order to maximise this strategic site-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Prior to the decision at that meeting on 5 April 2019, what engagement had been taken?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

There was some engagement with Limerick City and County Council on identifying the best sites and assessing the potential use.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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For this particular site, where a decision was taken to spend €8.4 million of taxpayers’ money on a site that was zoned for retail, not for educational purposes, civic amenity or anything else, what engagement had there been with the local authority with regard to the zoning of the site and the prospect of having a change from retail purposes to educational? Was there any due diligence or was any engagement taken with the local authority to ensure that process would be straightforward or that the local authority would be willing to look at that, or not? What engagement had taken place and what assurances had been given by the local authority?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

There were various engagements executed in the context of the acquisition of the city campus in order to arrive at a preliminary assessment.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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On this site.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

On this site.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Limerick City and County Council had given approval or had stated it was willing to look at changing the zoning of this site, so there was engagement and commitment there from the council. Before the decision was taken by UL to spend over €8 million of taxpayers’ money, a commitment was sought and obtained from the council.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

As the Deputy will be aware, there is a lengthy process involved in order to get planning permission for a change of use and the university has undertaken to submit a planning application for change of use.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That will apply retrospectively to the decision being taken.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy’s time is up. I will let him back in again later. I call Deputy Verona Murphy.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is somewhat hard to know where to start but I will start by welcoming everybody. I have a query. We have some change of actors from last year. We do not have the chancellor with us and we do not have the chief corporate officer. Is there any reason why they have not been brought today?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The chief corporate officer has a long-standing engagement that he could not get out of. I think it is common practice that the president attends as the chief officer of the university.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We had the chancellor the last day. Was she invited?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

She was not invited. As I said, it is common practice for the chief officer to head the delegation engaged with the Committee of Public Accounts.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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So they just are not here. I note the provost, who would not have been in any way party to previous proceedings, is here. On that, the chief corporate officer, Mr. Flaherty, was appointed without an advertising of that position. Have any further positions been appointed by Professor Mey where we have not had an advertisement process?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

When I took on my role as interim president of the university-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I only asked were there any other appointments that were not advertised.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

When I took on my role as interim president of the university, I was very well aware that in order to realise the ambitious-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am sorry, and I do not mean to cut across Professor Mey, but I just asked a straightforward question. Were any other appointments made since her last appearance that have not been advertised or gone through the process? That is a “Yes” or “No”.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I would like to correct Deputy Murphy because the chief corporate officer was not appointed without process. I want to explain to the Deputy that, as a president of the university, acting within my powers, I recalibrated the-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is Professor Mey saying there was a recruitment process for the chief corporate officer's job? There was a recruitment process then, was there?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

What I am telling the Deputy is that, as president, I recalibrated the portfolio of seven members of the senior management.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Professor Mey will find that when we discussed this last year, the nature of the appointment was that there was no recruitment process. Is that a fact? Was there a recruitment process? That is a “Yes” or “No”. Please answer the question. My clock is being run down and all I am asking for is a “Yes” or “No” answer. Was there a recruitment process?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

There was a recalibration of the portfolio of seven members of the senior management.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The question is this. Was there a recruitment process?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The member of staff taking on that portfolio was dutifully recruited to the university.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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As president of a university with over 18,500 students, Professor Mey appears to have a difficulty understanding the question I am posing. Was there a recruitment process for the position that was granted to Mr. Flaherty? That is a “Yes” or “No” answer.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

There was a recruitment process, absolutely.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There was a recruitment process.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Was it advertised? I think that is the question the Deputy is asking.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There was a recruitment process. Was the position advertised? It is just a “Yes” or “No”.

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

There was a recruitment process for that individual to his initial post in the university. The university has a range of policies available to it in the context of reassignment, in the context-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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On that, there is video evidence from the last committee where this was discussed that there was not a recruitment process undertaken in the way that ordinary and other positions were appointed. Is that not clear?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

It will be the case on several occasions, for example, with adjunct professorships, contract positions, reassignments and a whole range of restructures within an organisation-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I think Mr. O'Connor will find that the last time Professor Mey was here, she said that this was not a position that needed to be advertised because it was a reassignment of duties. That was her answer. Has she changed from that? Either she misled us the last day or she is misleading us today.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I confirmed that by saying it was a recalibration of the portfolio of senior management.

The member of staff was recruited to a position in senior management in the university as part of our normal processes. Then the portfolios of seven members of the senior executive were recalibrated.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Professor Mey will find that was discounted in the last report, which we did not see either, which was the McKenna report. Can we see the McKenna report? Can we have it?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The McKenna report made a number of observations and recommendations, all of which have been implemented.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We did not see them so can we have the report? Can the McKenna report be submitted to the committee?

Mr. John Kelly:

As I understand it, the McKenna report makes references to a number of individuals and for that reason-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Can we have the McKenna report on the same basis as we had the last report from KPMG?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The committee has the power to compel any report from us, if it wishes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I do not know why we would have to do that. We have already seen the KPMG report and are aware of the confines within which we are discussing this. Is there an issue with giving us the McKenna report?

Mr. John Kelly:

I believe there is an issue with providing the committee with the McKenna report.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Do the issues go above and beyond the issues that arose with regard to the KPMG report?

Mr. John Kelly:

Similar considerations arise and I have to say that this is not a satisfactory position for the university either, but in circumstances where-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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This is not Mr. Kelly's first outing. The bottom line here is that we have A, B, C, D, E; it keeps going with the University of Limerick. It just keeps going. Are our guests asking us to compel the McKenna report in the way that we did the KPMG report, thus prolonging the saga, or are they prepared to give it to us, on the basis that we look at it in the same way we looked at the KPMG report? I have no difficulty in entertaining the McKenna report in that regard.

Mr. John Kelly:

As the Deputy knows, if an individual's rights are in any way affected in reports of this nature-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is amazing. All I am hearing here is an arse-covering exercise. If the same due diligence had been applied to the process as is now being employed to preventing this committee from receiving reports, when the committee is trying to establish value for money and the appropriate expenditure of taxpayers' money, we would not be discussing this. It is an arse-covering exercise, full stop. That is what it is. That is what is going on here. We have sight of a KPMG report and have looked at it within the confines of the stipulations laid down by the university, which is absolutely ridiculous, given that this is the Committee of Public Accounts. It is not Mr. Kelly's first outing, as I have said. Did our guests receive communications training for today? Did they receive media training?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

With all due respect, we were preparing ourselves to-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Did the university employ media consultants to do that?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

-----answer the questions to the best of our ability.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Did our guests employ media consultants to help them to do that? It is well known that people appearing before this committee do that. Did our guests do the same?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We prepared ourselves very diligently to give the committee the answers it seeks from us, to respond with transparency and accountability.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am not going to repeat the fact that what we are getting is just waffle. The question was whether our guests hired a media consultancy company to prepare for today.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We worked to prepare for today as a team.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is incredible that somebody in Professor Mey's position does not understand the question that is being asked. Did our guests hire a media consultancy company in order to prepare for today?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I answered the Deputy's question. We prepared ourselves as a team.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Did that preparation incorporate the use of a media consultancy?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We worked closely with our communications staff on the preparation for our appearance before this committee.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Who are the consultants?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We have our colleagues, Ms Laura Ryan and Mr. Andrew Carey here with us, with whom we have been working.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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In the examination of the university's accounts next year, we are not going to see any media consultancy fees there. Is that correct?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We are happy to share information on our media consultant's fees.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am only asking whether our guests used a media consultancy company to prepare for today. That is a "Yes" or "No" question.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We are training ourselves in leadership, as members of the university-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Who is the university's media consultancy company? What company does the university use?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

As I said before, we-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is not a trick question. Who does the university use?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We prepare ourselves in the execution of our leadership training using a number training opportunities internally.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does that mean the university does not employ a media consultancy company?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

If we need to, we will employ an external media company but our leadership-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Has the university done so recently?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Our leadership development-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Has the university recently employed a media consultancy company?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Our leadership development also involves dealing with the media-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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When did the university last employ a media consultancy company?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We employ training companies in order to enhance our leadership, as part of normal practice.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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When did the university last employ one?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The last employment of such a company was earlier in the year.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We are in the month of May. Was it in April or March? I ask Professor Mey to go back through the months and just tell me when. Does Professor May not recollect the last time a media consultancy was in UL?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I have a very clear recollection. The Deputy asked me a very particular question. She asked whether we employed a media company-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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And I asked when the university last-----

Professor Kerstin Mey:

-----in order to train for our appearance before the Committee of Public Accounts. What I have said to the Deputy is that we are training in terms of developing our leadership abilities in the round, as a senior management team.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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When did UL last employ a media consultancy company? In what month of this year?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

In May.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Who was it? What is the name of the consultancy company?

Mr. John Kelly:

I do not know if it is appropriate to name individual companies in the circumstances.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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They will be named in the accounts. I am sure the Comptroller and Auditor General can confirm this but I do not think there is any difficulty there because it is public money, for the most part. There is no difficulty.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not think they have to answer. The question is-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Why would they not want to answer?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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When the accounts are produced, the names will be there, I am sure.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The expense will be there but it would not be normal to name specific companies in the accounts.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I cannot see any difficulty here. It is a matter of interest to the committee.

Mr. John Kelly:

As I understand it, leadership training is provided by a company called Blue Yard Consultancy, but a number of companies provide-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is that the company that was employed in May?

Mr. John Kelly:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy McAuliffe is next.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I want to return to the central issue here, which was the subject of the aforementioned KPMG report. We respect the fact that the KPMG was essentially an internal inquiry carried out by the governing authority of UL. On the basis of the last appearance by representatives of the university at this committee, my understanding was that the governing authority felt it had not been given sufficient information and as a result, it initiated the KPMG inquiry.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

That is correct.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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It is an internal document, owned by UL and it is a separate process from the Committee of Public Accounts process. This committee has a responsibility to ensure value for money. It also has an obligation to secure, in public, the facts or details of incidents so that people can be held to account publicly. I fully appreciate the legal situation that UL is in and I understand that us asking questions may limit the university's ability to carry a legal argument. However, that is not the concern of this committee; it is the concern of UL and that is part of the difficulty here.

I am going to ask questions regarding the decision that was taken because that is why we are here today. There is a belief, and some would argue it is a fact, that a site was put before the governing authority which was valued in excess of its real market value. Would our guests accept that?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

When the university made the decision to acquire an iconic and strategically best-positioned site in Limerick city centre, it did so in order to deliver on its civic and civil mission.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry-----

Professor Kerstin Mey:

If I could be allowed to finish-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I have been generous. I ask Professor Mey to answer the question.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We have sufficient evidence that the site presents value for money, both in terms of its carrying value and in terms of its reinstatement-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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With respect, that was not the question. I am interrupting because that was not the question. Professor Mey is answering a different question. The governing authority initiated an inquiry because it had concerns. My question was whether the governing authority or the university believes it paid in excess of the market value.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The governing authority never had any concerns about the value of the site. The KPMG report, in line with the terms of reference, was commissioned to address the concerns about the governance around the process and procedures

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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How can the University of Limerick say it had no concerns around the value of the site when no proper valuation process took place?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The governing authority acted on the information given at the time. As I stated earlier-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking the university whether it believes it paid in excess of market value.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I tried to answer that question. We have acquired the most-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Professor Mey replied by saying it was value for money. That is a separate issue. Does she believe the university paid in excess of market value?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

It is a most strategic site in Limerick city centre with huge potential which represents value for money.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am being very clear. Does the university believe it paid in excess of market value? It is a simple question.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We paid to acquire the site that represents good value for money.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The university did not pay to buy a paper. I know why it paid. It is simple. Does the university believe it paid in excess of market value? Yes or no.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We based the decision on the analysis. Our financial controller can give the committee the details. We believe we got value for money.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I will put it this way. Does the university believe it paid market value?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We paid money to acquire a strategic and iconic site in the city centre. We have no regrets. I was asked to realise our vision.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Professor Mey, it is enormously frustrating for the Deputy. He has asked a question in a number of ways and is trying to get an answer to it. Perhaps it is a question for Mr. Kelly or the director of finance. Will someone please answer the question? Did the university pay above market value for the site? We know there are two other valuations, including one the university obtained. Deputy McAuliffe will put the question again. Will the witnesses please answer it?

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Did the university pay above market value for the site?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We paid what we believed at the time, based on the information we had, was the right value for the site. I can only answer that way because it is a question being asked in retrospect about a process which we have already acknowledged fell short of the governance we would have expected. We regret that.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Surely it is a legitimate question for the Committee of Public Accounts to ask the university. Did it pay the market value or in excess of the market value and have a reason to do so? The university may have had a reason to pay in excess of market value. My question is whether the university believes it paid the correct market value. Part of the problem in answering is that at the time the university did not have a strong valuation process. That was the reason it had the governance concerns.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I have acknowledged that these are governance concerns that we have addressed in the meantime.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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In this hearing I am trying to quantify that decision. What did the decision cost?

Ms Rosemary Fogarty:

I might be able to help somewhat. We produced the 2021 statements, which we are here to speak about. We have accounting policies so we have to look at carrying value of assets in the context of necessity to impair for whatever reason. As part of that exercise I looked for some comfort around that. Separately the university, through a procurement process, engaged a firm to undertake a review of its portfolio of buildings, as regards reinstatement costs on a like-for-like basis. That included the Dunnes site and the Dunnes building. The reinstatement cost value of that site was in excess of €20 million, on a like-for-like basis with no improvements. From an accounting perspective, we took comfort from that. We were carrying the asset at an appropriate value. We have also been depreciating the asset since we bought it.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Fogarty is talking about valuations after the date. It is a simple question. Does the university believe it paid market value or in excess of it? If it believes it paid in excess, was there a reason for that? The reason I am asking that question is that it is the heart of the issue. A decision was made to purchase a site at a particular value. It is clear and has been fully accepted by the university that the correct processes were not in place. Our job is not to navel gaze about the governance of the University of Limerick. That is the job of the witnesses. Our job is to quantify where public money is misspent. I am trying to quantify how much more UL paid above market value. The answer may be that the witnesses do not know, but they must answer the question. Otherwise they have not accepted there was an issue. How much in excess of market value did the University of Limerick pay and why?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We have accepted there were significant shortcomings and we have acted on them. It is a difficult question to answer because, as we already said, none of us was involved in the process of valuations tabled at the negotiation stage to enable us to acquire the strategic and iconic building and site.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The only iconic thing about this is the breathtaking lack of ability to name the cost of the mistake. It is a simple question. How much did it cost? We accept a mistake was made. We have difficulties around having full public accountability because of legal actions. I accept that. Unfortunately I will not have time to talk about that. There will be an opportunity in the future when the legal proceeding are no longer a restriction for us to have full public accountability on this hearing. I have no doubt that members of the committee will pursue that. We are asking today that the witnesses respond to their decision to carry out an internal report which questioned the process. Do they believe, after paying KPMG a significant amount of money, that they paid in excess of market value and by how much? There is a numerical answer to that question.

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

The fundamental basis of the KPMG report was that the governing authority realised that no formal valuation was done. That was the fundamental rationale for doing that. Our financial controller, Ms Fogarty, explained the current value of the site. The answer to whether we are considering the value is, yes, we are. In the context of us wanting to have that building, having the building and working with it, the university is satisfied.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses are talking about value for money rather than the appropriate value of a transaction. They are different things.

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

The point is Dunnes Stores wanted €11 million for the building. We paid €8 million. There is a buyer-seller-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was valued at €3.5 million

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was going to say that.

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

As we have explained on the record of this committee it was valued at €3.5 million in completely different circumstances. That was a desktop valuation in the circumstances of being put on the derelict sites register for a compulsory purchase order. That was not relevant in the context of a market valuation the Deputy is talking about. It is on the record-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The university discounts the €3 million valuation.

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

Completely and we have done so before in this House.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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What was the value of the site?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

That is the whole point. No valuation was tabled. There were various verbal valuations-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The university of Limerick cannot tell us the cost of the mistake or how much it overpaid or underpaid. That is the reality.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

As there was no written valuation the governing authority could see, at the time-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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We know that.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

-----it is difficult to answer the Deputy's question. We have acknowledged and we regret in hindsight that the process went as it did. We cannot give a numerical answer to his question.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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It is breathtaking that at the end of the KPMG process, albeit with the other legal restrictions and so on, that the witnesses come before the Committee of Public Accounts and we are unable to quantify the mistake. If we cannot quantify it, we cannot improve the processes as we go forward.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We have very much improved the processes going forward. We have developed a new policy on the acquisition of property, buildings, infrastructure and land. The new policy clearly states that a business case independent valuation must be part of the due diligence to enable any decision to be made at executive and governing authority level. There must be an executive sponsor and so on. We have learned from the regrettable mistakes.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The absence of that process cost the State money and we cannot identify how much it cost.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Let us put it this way on the point of when this was bought. A company with a turnover of €2 million or €3 million per year that spends a couple of hundred thousand euro on something would get a number of prices and independent valuations. Can Mr. O'Connor clarify whether the valuation by the council was from a professional valuer? That is my understanding. There might be a contradiction in that, but from what I read about it-----

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

Indeed it was, but for the purposes of declaring it as a derelict site.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, and it is on the derelict sites register. I call Deputy Munster.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for presenting to the Committee of Public Accounts the minutes and proposal document from the board meeting on the night the Dunnes Stores site was approved. Am I right in suggesting that it was not an item on the agenda but that it was brought in under any other business, AOB?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The Deputy is right in saying that.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That in itself - the purchase of an €8 million site appearing on the agenda under any other business - should have flagged concerns about the nature of the purchase. Any other business usually refers to trivial things that have been overlooked or missed. It is hard to credit that the purchase of an €8 million site would be under any other business and that this did not raise concerns with board members. As representatives here today, do the witnesses feel they were misled, to put it one way, by the business proposal document that was presented to them on that night?

Mr. John Kelly:

Can I just correct something first of all? The Deputy is correct to say that it was raised under any other business, but it was a governing authority meeting that took place as part of the normal cycle on 5 April. There was communication from the former president of the university to the corporate secretary's office seeking to have the issue added to the agenda at short notice.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That was the night before.

Mr. John Kelly:

Yes, I believe it was the day before or two days before perhaps.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That does not really-----

Mr. John Kelly:

It was not just-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----justify the-----

Mr. John Kelly:

-----added in without notice, let us put it that way, to the business of the governing authority.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It was a telephone call the night before to say, "Hey, we are purchasing an €8 million site, would you stick it under AOB?" That in itself beggars belief. Is it the view of the representatives present that they were misled by the business proposal that was put to them on that night?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

It is our view that the process by which the property was purchased had shortcomings. We had identified the shortcomings, including-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would Professor Mey define those shortcomings as misleading information?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

-----the lack of a written independent evaluation. The governing authority at the time acted on the information provided at the meeting.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry; I understand that but would Professor Mey define that as misleading information?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I would define that as information that was short of the required volume of information that we have now formalised in our new acquisition policy for buildings, infrastructure, land and property.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. We have seen the document. On the bottom of page 2, it states that a significant advantage of this site was the ability to deliver quickly a fully functioning building. We now know that not to be true. We know it will possibly take upwards of a decade. It may have to be demolished. Surely, to be put forward in a document as a fully functioning building that could be delivered quite quickly is in itself is misleading.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

At the time, in April 2019, we did not have Covid-19, which created a two-year disruption. As the Deputy will be aware, we converted part of the campus very quickly and we are utilising it.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There is Covid and then there is putting forward a proposal stating that it will be a fully functioning facility when we know now there is a world of difference in a site that may take ten years to put together. It may have to be demolished. It may cost €100 million, which the university does not have. There is a world of difference. Bringing Covid into the equation is nonsense. It is described in the proposal as having the ability to quickly become a fully functional site. It has turned out not to be the case. It could take a decade to put right, it could cost upwards of €100 million, which the university does not have, and it may have to be demolished in the process. If that is not misleading, I do not know what is. Were the representatives naive in thinking or believing-----

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Decisions were made at the time based on the information provided. We have worked to rectify these mistakes. Since then, we have made significant efforts to bring that site into public use to make a contribution to the revitalisation of the city centre.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does the university have the money to bring that site into use?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We have invested some money and we will work on a partnership approach in order to fulfil the full potential of the site.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In the here and now, after purchasing an €8 million site, the university does not have the money to put that right.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

It depends on what it means to put it right. There are two different-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Could it possibly cost up to €100 million? What is the timeframe for it?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We are engaging in partnership with Limerick City and County Council to develop the master plan. As the Deputy may be aware, we were part of a submission by Limerick City and County Council to the urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, for a world-class waterfront centre. We got €2.52 million to develop the master planning for the city campus. We are working with Limerick City and County Council on the development of the business case to do so in order to deliver what is best for the university and what serves Limerick City and County Council best for the revitalisation of the city. In the context of that master plan development and in broad consultation with stakeholders, we are looking at the potential of the site and what it might cost and how we will finance it. The ambition is that it will be significantly transforming, and I use the word "transforming" very carefully, by 2027 when the Ryder Cup is staged in the region.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Professor Mey has no real idea other than to say she cannot rule out that it could cost €100 million.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I do not want to rule that out. That was subject to last year's meeting around how much we are going to spend, but we are still in the planning-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I want to come back to the proposal itself. It made no mention whatsoever of asbestos damage. The proposal made no reference to the fact that it was on a derelict site. The document we read stated that the engineering assessment outlined how the building is designed for several additional floors above the existing two floors. That was not true. The structural design will not support that. There was a whole list of things that were either excluded from the document or were misleading to say the very least. The fact that the university did not have an independent site evaluation means that because of the lack of competence and oversight, not alone have the Irish taxpayers paid €8 million for a site that was basically not what it said it was, but it will now cost upwards of a further €100 million. At what stage does the university take responsibility for the squandering of taxpayers' money for the simple reason that due diligence and oversight was not carried out?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Deputy Munster-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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This would be an absolute disgrace to the general public. It is a total waste of taxpayers' money. The witnesses have still not acknowledged the fact that they were completely misled and that all of this could have been avoided had the university carried out an independent evaluation on the site.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We fully acknowledge and regret in hindsight that there were significant shortcomings-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Come on, now-----

Professor Kerstin Mey:

----- in the governance process, and we have rectified that-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We talk about public limitation damage. For goodness sake, millions of euro of public money was squandered and the witnesses have not yet acknowledged that fact that they were misled.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The governing authority acted in good faith on the information available at the time.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The university learned lessons from it to be more-----

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We have learned significant lessons from the process.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I should hope so.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

As I said before, we have developed a completely new policy for the acquisition of property, land and infrastructure in order to avoid any of these shortcomings in the future.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I can honestly say that I would not be overly confident given how long it took to get answers to the very straightforward questions my colleagues asked earlier. I would not be overly confident that the university has indeed learned a single thing from this.

My final question is on the minutes of the board meeting. They do not refer to dissent from members. There were not many questions asked. Were questions asked at the meeting? If so, why were they not included in the minutes?

Mr. John Kelly:

I was not present at the meeting. This was an issue that arose in the context of looking back at this after the fact. There was unanimity among the governing authority members on proceeding with the purchase. That is the first thing to say. There was no dissenting voice on the day in question and I have confirmed that. Therefore, everyone was in favour of the acquisition going ahead on the basis of the information put before the governing authority. There was a lengthy discussion on the acquisition, obviously, and various questions were asked. There was an over-and-back between members. No member dissented. They were happy to proceed with the purchase.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The witnesses are very welcome. It is fair to say that while the site may be iconic, the building could hardly be described as iconic. Indeed, quite a lot of money has been spent on it just to deal with the asbestos issues and make it presentable from the outside. Is there more money to be spent on asbestos or is that it?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We have made significant efforts to get the building into a functioning state, and we have opened part of it. The asbestos has been fully removed from the building.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Has the university had a structural report done? The point has been raised that there was initially an expectation that the structure would be taller but that the design is unlikely to support that. Has the university got a structural report?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

As part of the master-planning exercise, we will get a number of reports in order to develop the site to its full potential and make a decision on how high and wide the building can be built.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is that not done yet?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

No, that is not done yet. We have-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Professor Mey does not know what the possible cost will be because that exercise would need to be done first.

Who has the report been shared with?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The report has had very little exposure, based on the strong legal advice. As I said earlier to the committee, six people have seen it.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Not the previous governing authority or the current one?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The current governing authority has not seen it, except for the now-deceased chair of the audit-and-risk committee.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When was the case presented to the courts?

Mr. John Kelly:

I think it was March 2021.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Professor Mey is giving us an assurance on the recommendations of the report. Has the governing authority seen the recommendations?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The governing authority is aware of the recommendations and, on the basis of those recommendations, has approved our new policy and procedures.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to move into a couple of other areas because I know a lot has been covered. Has the Garda investigation into the historical severance payments been completed?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Can I refer that to my colleague?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

We are not involved with the Garda investigation per sebut I do not believe it has been completed yet.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The witnesses will know when it is completed but it is not completed yet.

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

I would imagine so.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Can the witnesses confirm whether the former president received a severance agreement?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

Let me respond to that. The view of UL is that he did not receive a severance agreement, although the Department and Comptroller and Auditor General have a different view than that taken by the university.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Could Mr. O'Connor just explain that to me?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

I will. There was a unique position concerning the former president in that his contract of employment did not have a notice period. He resigned in the middle of Covid and sought to have a 12-month notice period. The chancellor at the time, the current chancellor, was not willing to accept that he would have a notice period of 12 months and negotiated a six-month period with him that would align with precedent in the context of notice periods for people at that level. He worked for two months of the notice period and was paid for four months in lieu of notice. Our view that it was not a severance payment was based on the fact that if it had been, he would have been entitled to a sum of over €12,000 tax free. We did not apply that; we paid him through normal salary arrangements.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Were the Higher Educational Authority and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform involved in this at all?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

I was not involved myself but I understand they were not. They were not aware of it or consulted because the university took the position that it did not need to consult them. The university remains of the view that it was not a severance payment in the context; it was pay in lieu of notice. There are precedents for that. The current Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, when he was Minister for Health, had a very similar situation concerning the outgoing head of the HSE and would have acknowledged in the Dáil that pay in lieu of notice is a correct-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Did paying in lieu of notice cost the university because it had to pay somebody else?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

It did, indeed.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How much did it cost?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

I cannot remember the figures.

Ms Rosemary Fogarty:

I think the payment was €65,000. Obviously, tax and so on were applied to that payment in the normal payroll manner.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Are we talking about the-----

Ms Rosemary Fogarty:

Four months.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How much was the former president paid?

Ms Rosemary Fogarty:

That payment was four months of his salary, so you can multiply that up.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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For the outstanding months, did the university have to cover someone else?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Does the Deputy mean the four months for which the president-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There was six months, and he worked for four months.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

There was coverage by the deputy president in that time. I took over as interim president through open competition in September 2021.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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For what duration was money withheld from the Higher Education Authority and the Department? When was it restored? Was all the money restored?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

All of the money was restored by the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science on assurances received from the Higher Education Authority with regard to the improvement and strengthening of our governance processes. That amounts to €3.7 million in total with respect to grants withheld. I need to go back to my file in order to get the exact duration in months. I am happy to provide that in writing.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is there no more money outstanding?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I am very pleased to say we have just received €25 million from the Department for our capital project to renovate and expand our main building at Castletroy campus.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In terms of the oversight involving the Higher Education Authority, what assurances did the university give it? Were authority officials down at the university?

What engagement took place? Was it over a period? Can the witnesses provide some indication of that?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Over a period of months, we engaged very closely with the HEA to provide an account of our governance work, namely the review of policies and the development of new policies and statutes. Our corporate secretary can give the Deputy more details on that.

Mr. John Kelly:

Obviously, the context for the engagement was the acquisition of the site, which was a former Dunnes Stores and is now a city campus. A lot of the concerns that arose from the HEA related to those kind of things. It wanted to be satisfied that the university was taking the appropriate steps to ensure that future acquisitions and things like that were done in accordance with circulars, guidelines and the university's established procedures. The kind of things it looked at were having a named person at an appropriate senior level in the university, which we now refer to as a promoter, and that person would take responsibility for showing that all aspects in connection with the acquisition would be taken forward and the due diligence steps to be taken in regard to any future acquisition.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank Mr. Kelly. The KPMG report is quite important in terms of knowledge. People on the previous governing authority who were involved in the decision will not, in the main, have seen the report. Is there a difficulty or potential conflict of interest identified in terms of their standing again for the governing authority? Does that put them into a position whereby there is a conflict of interest?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

If I am correct, it is still the governing authority. We are in the process of renewing our governing authority in line with the new HEA Act. I am sure that all members of the governing authority will have taken the learnings from the shortcomings of governance. As the Deputy knows, the term of office for the members of the governing authority is limited and will be limited under the new regulations. Therefore, that question may not arise. I cannot comment on it because at this point we do not have a new governing authority with the new membership in place.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is it one person or multiple people who have challenged this in the courts?

Mr. John Kelly:

I would prefer not to get into the details. A single court case has arisen in regard to this case at present.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Who is the person who took that court case?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I would ask the Deputy not to ask for the name of the person.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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All right. I am sure that is available in the courts.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is available.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Why would we not say it here if that information is available in the courts?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There are conditions put on this by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges which, unfortunately, we do not have control over.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It seems daft that something is publicly available and we cannot say it here.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I might not disagree with you on that. When we read the documents people will be able to work out-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have read the documents.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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-----who the personalities are that are involved.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Before bringing in the next witnesses, I want to ask Professor Mey something in relation to the McKenna report. I did not want to hold up the questioner at the time. The thought that crossed my mind was whether the university is willing to supply that to us with the names redacted on it. Would that be helpful with regard to making it easier to supply the McKenna report to us?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I thank the Cathaoirleach for the question. We will check what we can supply the committee with in the most forthcoming way.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Maybe Professor Mey might come back to me within a week or a fortnight on that.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Yes, we will come back to the Cathaoirleach on that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Professor Mey, and I will bring in Deputy Ó Cathasaigh next.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It has been an extraordinary meeting, and we started by talking about culture change and transparency. I am not sure I have seen that reflected in the some of the language which we have been using. I have some very quick questions regarding the Opera site. Was that proposed site acquisition discussed at the physical development review committee? This is the normal process, as I understand it. It should be first discussed at the physical development review committee, and then presented to the finance resource asset management committee for consideration. Finally, it goes to the governing authority for approval. In the case of the Opera site, was that process followed?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

To the best of my knowledge, the acquisition of the Opera site was discussed as part of the development of a physical development plan for the university. I think that is what the Deputy is referring to.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Was it discussed at the physical development review committee? As I understand it, there is a three-stage process. It is discussed at the physical development review committee, then it goes on to be presented to the finance resource asset management committee for consideration and then finally to the governing authority for approval. Was this followed in the case of the Opera site?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Yes Deputy, to the best of my knowledge, that was followed for the Opera site.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Three days before the Dunnes Stores acquisition, was a 58-page application made to the HEA?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The Deputy is correct. We submitted our application for a skills academy on 2 April to the HEA.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Professor Mey said earlier that she has no figure for sunk costs with respect to the application for the Opera site. Even with the preparation of a 58-page application, I would imagine the hours put into that would be quite considerable but Professor Mey has no figure to give us this morning on the sunk costs?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We will get back to the Deputy with regard to the exact figures quantifying the staff time involved in preparing the application.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Okay. Are these two processes happening, more or less, in parallel? That is what we are given to understand. In one case, regarding the Opera site, we have these three committee structures that have been followed through, followed by a 58-page application. In the case of the Dunnes Stores site, we have a proposal document which is some two pages long in terms of writing, if I am right, with some pictures in it.

We have a lack of clarity around the agenda. Mr. Kelly spoke about contact being made about the possibility of adding something to an agenda. Was an agenda circulated with this item on it previous to the meeting?

Mr. John Kelly:

No.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Okay. Well, we should be clear about that. Were I a member of the governing board on that evening, when would have been the first indication that an acquisition of some €8 million was going to be discussed at the meeting that evening?

Mr. John Kelly:

The process of a governing authority meeting is that the agenda is set a week beforehand, and this matter-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I would imagine so, and particularly for an acquisition of this size and nature. My question is, if I was a member of the governing authority on that evening, when would I have learned that this was going to be an item for decision?

Mr. John Kelly:

As I understand, it was tabled on the day of the governing authority meeting. Obviously, the chancellor would have had awareness of the matter beforehand by reason of contact via the corporate secretary's office from the president, seeking to put the item on the agenda.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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As a member of the governing authority, as I was sat in that meeting on that evening or day - I am not sure which - when would I have become aware that this was a matter for decision?

Mr. John Kelly:

I would need to check-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Would I have been aware prior to the meeting?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

On the day.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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A day has 24 hours in it. At what time would I have been made aware of that? Before I arrived at the meeting, at the start of the meeting or would the first that I heard of it have been when it was raised under any other business?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

I am not sure where in the meeting it was raised but the Deputy will have seen from the KPMG report that it was raised during the meeting for an ordinary member of the governing authority.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Okay. How often does the governing authority make decisions of this size, that is, of an €8 million investment? How often would the governing authority be asked to make a decision of this kind?

Mr. John Kelly:

Very infrequently.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Would it be usual for it just to arise during the course of a meeting?

Mr. John Kelly:

It would not be usual, Deputy, but the circumstances here were unusual, in that the property came for sale at relatively short notice, which required a matter to be brought to the agenda out of cycle.

In a normal case, something would be added to the agenda well in advance.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Members of the governing authority were told that this was a decision which had to be made immediately. What is the language that was used? We had valuations tabled. The only concrete figure I have heard is the €3 million, which has been disparaged. There is a contrary figure of Dunnes Stores asking for €11 million. At least the figure of €3 million is underpinned by some sort of work. I drive a 2004 Vauxhall; I could ask for €10,000 for it but that does not mean I am going to get it. That is not a valuation. When we say there were valuations tabled, was that actually the case or was there offer and counter offer made? Those are two very different things. If valuations were tabled they were underpinned by something.

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

As the Deputy is aware, the report deals with that matter. That is a fundamental question. The governing authority commissioned the report on the basis that on the day that it made the decision it was presented to it that were written valuations, when in fact there were not. That is what the report addresses and deals with and that is why there are recommendations arising from the report. It is worth saying-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Sorry, I am against the clock here. How long does a governing body meeting normally take? Would it be an hour, an hour and a half?

Mr. John Kelly:

Three hours plus.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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This was raised at the end of a three-hour meeting. We are three hours in the room, I am a member of the governing body and someone suddenly says "By the way, we want to buy a site for 8 million quid". Am I understanding the scenario correctly?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

I was not present, but my understanding is that the president presents a report to every meeting of the governing authority. It was raised as part of the president's report. It amounts to the same thing.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I know there was unanimous support for the decision. Did no one question the wisdom of making such a serious decision right there and then because of fears that someone else would swoop in and pay €5 million over and above the last valuation of the site? Did no one raise concerns about the speed and alacrity with which this decision was being made?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

To reiterate, the report deals with that. One person in the meeting questioned whether the due diligence had been carried out. Our understanding is that this member of the governing authority was given assurances that the necessary due diligence had in fact been completed.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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This is extraordinary. We have not even got to the issue of the student centre yet. We have not had time to get into it. We have not gone after the student records yet because we have not had the time. It is quite extraordinary.

Regarding the engineering reports, Mr. O'Connor used the phrases "some engineering reports" and "early engineering assessments". I presume he cannot tell me who prepared these engineering reports or assessments?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

I do not know.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The preliminary assessments were made. I could not say by-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Who made these assessments? Were they done internally or externally?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

That goes to the core of the report. As I said before, we have now put robust processes in place with the development of our new policy in order to make it a prerequisite for any decisions taken on property acquisition that these reports are in place.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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In these early engineering reports, assessments or whatever they are - prepared by whomever - was the issue of asbestos identified?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

I do not believe so.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Was the presence of asbestos within the building so difficult to ascertain that the engineers preparing these advices, reports or assessments could not identify that it was present? The substantial remediation cost of the removal of the asbestos was not factored into the cost, and the asbestos was removed in two separate operations. Should the taxpayer not have been indemnified against an oversight of that kind in terms of the production of engineering reports? If there were engineering reports produced, I should say. What recourse do we have regarding the engineering advices we received that failed to identify the significant remediation costs that were going to be involved on the site? Does the taxpayer have any recourse of any type for this oversight?

Mr. John Kelly:

That depends very much on what the advisers were engaged to do. As outlined, they were preliminary assessments. Anyone who does a preliminary assessment is going to bind themselves in such a way as to give the university indemnities to say that everything is in order. At preliminary assessment level, I do not think that the university would have any recourse. I do not think any professional adviser would put themselves in a position where they would be liable in such situation.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Regarding the student centre, the proposed cost has ballooned from €20 million to €34 million. Once the €20 million threshold is breached, the public spending code states that a cost-benefit analysis must be provided for a project. Has such an analysis been proposed as per the public spending code on this expanded budget for the student centre?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The student centre is of enormous importance for our student experience-----

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I am sure it is.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The question the Deputy is asking is has a cost-benefit analysis been proposed. Yes or no.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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In line with the public spending code.

Ms Rosemary Fogarty:

No, it was not completed. When the project was originally looked at, the cost was under €20 million at which point the cost-benefit analysis requirement did not apply.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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It has gone to €34 million now.

Ms Rosemary Fogarty:

It has, but it was at the implementation stage at that point. One does not go backwards at the implementation stage to carry out a cost-benefit analysis. We find ourselves in this situation because the original builder who signed the contract to commence work in 2019 went out of business.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Is Ms Fogarty happy to state that there has been no breach of the public spending code in moving to €34 million for a project originally costed at under €20 million, and this only coming to light in December? Is she happy to state that, in her opinion, there has been no breach of the public code because that cost-benefit analysis has not been completed?

Ms Rosemary Fogarty:

It is my understanding that when we went to tender after the original builder went out of business, we got advice in that regard. That was the advice we were given but I do not have it here with me.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for attending. I want to address the issue of the legal costs. In 2021, the legal costs incurred were €542,000. The figure for 2020 was €925,000. Why are the legal costs in 2020 nearly €1 million? Is there a particular reason for that?

Where proceedings are taken against the university, is there any scenario where it would look to the courts for security of costs to make sure that if the case was successful, the costs could be recovered? If the university does not have security of costs and the person does not have any means, it cannot recover anything. Has that been adopted as a policy by the university?

Mr. John Kelly:

My understanding is that security for costs is sometimes not the easiest thing to obtain in the courts. In most cases-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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PwC got security of costs against the State for €29 million in a case that came up here before the committee. The State had to lodge €29 million in court in order for the case to proceed.

Mr. John Kelly:

In the vast majority of cases, we have not, to my knowledge, sought security for costs. Mostly, when we find ourselves in a litigation situation, costs follow the event, as the Deputy knows. If we were successful in a case, we would seek to recover our costs. If we were not successful, the court would make an order as to how costs were to be apportioned between the parties.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Have there been cases where the university has been successful but it has not recovered costs?

Mr. John Kelly:

I would need to check that.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I ask the witness to come back to me on that point. What about my second question on the high costs in 2020?

Ms Rosemary Fogarty:

The year-on-year costs were actually quite similar. This issue came up last year. The €925,000 the Deputy referred to added the legal costs and the technology transfer, which were the patent costs. They are not legal costsper se, but the word "legal" was included in the description in the table. They were all added up together to get to that figure.

On a like-for-like basis the legal costs in both years were quite similar. They were €504,000 in 2019-2020 versus €542-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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We might get a breakdown-----

Ms Rosemary Fogarty:

We can provide this breakdown, yes.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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UL is taking a judicial review with Irish Water. What is up-to-date situation on this?

Mr. John Kelly:

The case was heard a week or two ago and we are awaiting the judgment. It was heard before Ms Justice Marguerite Bolger. It is very difficult to know how these cases go. The committee is aware of the issue, which was that Irish Water chose to take an interpretation of the Water Services Act and charge commercial rates. Previously the practice had been to charge a residential rate. This will result in a significant uplift in water costs for the subsidiary Plassey Campus company. We are concerned that students are finding things difficult enough and adding this cost will be a significant issue. A decision was taken to bring a case.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I would like to add to what our corporate secretary said. We are taking the case on behalf of the sector because it has an impact on students nationally with regard to water charges. It is important that we safeguard the interests of our students, who already face significant costs in terms of the cost of living and longer commutes.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I want to come back to the issue that has been discussed quite a lot this morning, which is the purchase of the property. I want to speak about the governance structure in the university. When an executive decision is taken what is the number of people involved? What is the number of people involved in any decision before it goes to governance? What is the process? One of the issues was that something was added to an agenda at a very late stage. What is the governance structure before a major decision is made?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The governance structure of the university is that decisions are made by the executive committee, which I chair. Then the governing authority, as our oversight body, makes the decision on certain items such as strategies and property acquisitions of more than €2 million. The approval comes from the executive committee. In terms of property-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Who is on the executive committee? What is the make up of it?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The executive committee consists of myself as the chair, the provost and deputy president who is with us here, the vice president for research, the vice president for global and community engagement, the chief corporate officer and the chief financial and performance officer. We also have the executive deans of our four faculties on the executive.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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That group takes a decision and then refers it to the overall governing body as such.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

As required in terms of the approval of policies and the acquisition of properties, it goes to the governing authority. Where certain values are exceeded it goes to the finance, human resources and asset management committee beforehand. This committee makes a recommendation to the full governing authority with regard to the approval-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is Professor Mey satisfied that UL has now set up enough checks and balances to deal with any decision involving the expenditure of moneys? UL's budget for last year was more than €300 million. It is a substantial budget. Many decisions have to be made. Is Professor Mey satisfied there are now sufficient checks and balances to deal with issues involving expenditure by the university or even decisions about the future development of university?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I am satisfied that we have sufficient oversight in the university. We have everything sent to our regulator, which is the Higher Education Authority. We have a policy framework in place and a policy hub. We have reviewed and developed 27 new policies, which have been approved by the governing authority since October 2021. We have a regular review cycle of all of our policies. I am satisfied we have the governance structure in place that we need to conduct our business with accountability, transparency and probity.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I want to ask about the pensions policy in the university and the challenges that are there. Is Professor Mey satisfied there are sufficient guarantees in the way that pensions are now structured in the university? My understanding is that more than €1 billion must be provided for pensions in the coming years.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Our financial controller will answer this question.

Ms Rosemary Fogarty:

We set out a lot of detail in the president's report, in the financial statements and in the notes to the financial statements, on the basis of which we are relatively certain that the asset is recoverable. It is a matter of judgment. It is matter that the Comptroller and Auditor General has drawn attention to in his audit report. It is a matter to which PwC, which audits the accounts on behalf of the governing authority, does not draw attention because under FRS 102 it is satisfied that it is fairly certain the asset is recoverable. From discussions with the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, although we do not have an audit report yet, it is taking a slightly different view on it for the coming year. That is next year. We are satisfied the pension asset is recoverable. It is legally recoverable under the new single pension scheme. It is a pay-as-you-go scheme. If it was not, and if a professor applied for a job at UL after working for 30 years in UCD, we could not take on that person because we would take on their 30 years' pension rights when we employed that person. It would be inoperable. This is an example of how it would translate if the asset were not recognisable.

Professor Shane Kilcommins:

I will give an example of a governance structure that has been put in place. It links with a comment that Deputy Ó Cathasaigh mentioned earlier. Our student record system is governed now through a subcommittee of the executive. It reports there and it also reports to a new digital governance steering committee that has been established, which has budgetary autonomy. It also reports to the executive. From there it goes through an audit and risk subcommittee of the governing authority and then to audit and risk. To give an example from President Mey's comments earlier, the structure is subject to quality review processes introduced in 2019 and 2022. They have been a good example of enhanced government practices in the university.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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We have been previously told a few bits and pieces by representatives of UL about governance being an issue. We have heard this and it is long known in the Committee of Public Accounts that there have been problems. The governing authority put in place a new set of policies and procedures for the acquisition of large premises and buildings. This is welcome and I want to get an insight. Has UL signed off on any new major infrastructural project using the new policies? Can the witnesses give us a personal assurance, because this is what we are looking for, that they are unaware of any issue with respect to these new projects because of the structures that have been set up?

Professor Shane Kilcommins:

To give an example, property-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It is a "Yes" or "No" answer.

Professor Shane Kilcommins:

Yes, UL has purchased a new property under the new property acquisition policy.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Has any issue being identified through this instrument? Has anything arisen? How many times has it been used?

Professor Shane Kilcommins:

To my knowledge it has been used once.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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What was the particular building?

Professor Shane Kilcommins:

It was 20 residential houses that were purchased in Rhebogue.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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At the previous meeting in 2022 when UL came before the Committee of Public Accounts it was confirmed by President Mey that an employee of UL raised the matter of the Dunnes Stores property in a protected disclosure. Is this correct?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The matter of Dunnes Stores was raised through a freedom of information request with regard to written evaluations. We could not produce a written valuation. This provided insight into the potential governance shortcomings. On this basis, the KPMG report was commissioned by the governing authority to investigate it.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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On that disclosure, how was it handled at the time, when UL got that information?

Mr. John Kelly:

The practice of the university is that all FOIs are disclosed to the governing authority. It is made aware of FOIs on a periodic basis. This is why-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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That is wonderful but it does not answer my question.

Mr. John Kelly:

I was going to get to that, Deputy.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I will go back to Professor Mey, if Mr. Kelly does not mind. How did UL handle it, when it was made aware of the complaints that were made?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

As the corporate secretary said, the FOI request was brought to the attention of the governing authority. On the basis of that, the KPMG report was commissioned in order to investigate the process.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Has the governing authority been shown the KPMG report?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The governing authority has not been shown the report based on legal advice that we have received.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I think that is-----

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The former chair of the audit and risk committee, who has sadly passed away, had seen the KPMG report. However, the governing authority is fully aware of the recommendations. It is how we have acted on the recommendations.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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The one person who was aware of the report is now deceased.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

The one member of the governing authority-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Who saw the report is now deceased.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Yes.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Does Professor Mey think that is acceptable?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We are in a difficult situation. I have acknowledged my own frustration with regard to the fact that we cannot share the KPMG report. I would love to publish it. I would love to share it with the governing authority and to publish it further, in order to put that very regrettable chapter behind us. We have worked very hard to make lots of governance changes over the past period. We have embarked on significant culture changes. We have been working intensively on developing processes and procedures so that-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Professor Mey, unfortunately-----

Professor Kerstin Mey:

-----the governance shortages do not occur again.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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-----my time, as she knows, is limited. It is utterly laughable that one person saw the report. Nobody within the governing authority is now aware of its contents because of "legal advice". I do not think that is acceptable. It is not acceptable to any member of this committee that this is the case. From the point of view of the reputation of the university, I acknowledge action has been taken. We have a duty to acknowledge when proper work has been done, but I find the current situation to be extraordinary. Can I get an insight? What is the legal advice? Why is the governing authority of the university not being shown the contents of that report? Can anyone give me a legitimate answer to that question? I doubt I will get it, but I ask for it.

Mr. John Kelly:

I believe the chancellor dealt with this issue on a previous occasion when she appeared before the committee.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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That is not answering my question. I want the witnesses to answer the question I asked.

Mr. John Kelly:

Certainly. I will answer the question. To reiterate what was said on the previous occasion, the president obviously saw the KPMG report. The person who commissioned the report, Mr. Bobby O'Connor, also saw the KPMG report. As is the convention-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I asked a question. Why can the governing authority of the university not be shown the contents of the report?

Mr. John Kelly:

I am coming to that. When the report was produced-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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You are coming to it but you are taking your time. My time is running out.

Mr. John Kelly:

I am doing my best. Essentially, it was flagged, when the report was produced at draft stage, that there was likely to be litigation and it transpired that litigation is in being in relation to the report. The president briefed the chancellor, as I understand it, on the litigation. The chancellor was very clear that she did not want to put the university in a position whereby it would be exposed to litigation by disseminating the report further.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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What is in that report must be fairly damaging.

Mr. John Kelly:

The report is obviously before the committee at the moment.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I must get a sense of this. Would it not be better for the university to deal with this report substantially and, effectively, draw a line under it and take the consequences?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I will answer that. Of course, all our endeavours have been geared towards dealing with the report. We are very aware that it has affected our reputation; I acknowledged that in my statement to the committee today. We have worked tirelessly over the past period to implement a strengthened and improved governance process, which was acknowledged by our regulator, the Higher Education Authority. Ideally, I hope that we can put a line under this and move forward in order to realise our ambitious plans. It has been a very difficult period for me and for the executive involved, but I assure the Deputy we have made significant changes since I took on responsibility as president. I share the Deputy's frustration in not being able to publish the report more widely, and put our new policies and procedures against it, in order to evidence the change that we have undertaken.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I take into account what Professor Mey said, but I stand over what I said. I just cannot see UL being able to move beyond this until the governing authority is briefed on the report. I am not a legal expert; far from it. I am not claiming to be one but, from a political and transparency point of view, that is not a legitimate excuse for the public.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I accept Deputy O'Connor's point. I fully acknowledge that our governing authority also wants to see the report as soon as possible but we also have a responsibility, as the chancellor said at the previous meeting, for taxpayers' money and protecting our side in a legal court case that, at this point in time, is live. The very strong external legal advice we had was that we have to limit the circulation of that report until such time as the legal matter has been resolved.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I will come back in the next round.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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To follow on from the point regarding the governing authority, I will take Professor Mey back to the question I previously asked her. I want to make sure we have absolute clarity on this. Is the governing authority the supreme body in the university, similar to the elected chamber in a county council, the board of directors of a company, or the board of an education and training board, for example? Can that be clarified?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

That is correct. The governing authority is the oversight body.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I want to keep this short. I do not want to prolong it for Professor Mey, myself, or anyone else. The supreme body, which is the governing authority, that looked for this report has not seen it. Is that correct?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

That is correct.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The site we are talking about is 0.3 ha or just under 0.8 acres. That is what was presented to the governing authority. Is that correct?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

That is correct.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is a very limited site. It is in a good location but is a very limited site. Is it on the derelict site register?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

That is not correct. It is not on the derelict site-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It was on the derelict site register.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

It was not on the derelict site register. Attempts were made to put it on the derelict site register. These attempts were refuted in a court case-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. We will accept that. However, the only professional valuation, prior to the governing authority seeing this proposal in front of it, was the valuation carried out by the council, which sought it from the valuer. That has been established. That is a fact.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I would like to say that was a desktop exercise-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is that not a fact? That was the only valuation sought in writing-----

Professor Kerstin Mey:

That was the assessment sought of the Dunnes Stores site and building in order to put the building and site on the derelict building register. It was a desktop exercise.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, and it was sought from a valuer. Somebody could have asked for the university's valuation in a pub because we are told that it was verbal. We have established that. That was said today and was said previously. That valuation could have been two fellas standing beside each other in the local public house, where one of them could have said, "I think it is worth so much". We do not know where that valuation came from. We know that it was assessed as a derelict site and that it is 0.3 ha, which is a very confined site, possibly with some restrictions in being able to get large trucks in and out of that area because of low bridges. We know there was no business case and that the governing authority was told that the significant advantages of this site over the Opera site were both the potential for future development and the ability to quickly deliver a fully functioning building. An engineer's report would not have been needed because if somebody had walked into building and looked upwards, they would have seen the suspended ceilings from the 1970s with asbestos in them.

An engineer's report would not be needed. I do not want to use the term, "some gob-----". I will not finish a foul word but the witnesses know what the second half of it is. Anybody could have walked in and seen that there was asbestos in the building, but that was not done. We are also told that an estimate was given to the governing authority on the night the decision had to be made in a hurry that a new building would cost €27 million, based on the scale of what was envisaged. The word used was a "cleared" site. Is that not correct?

We know there is no engineer's report. We know the asbestos was not identified. We know that the talk of two extra floors was a load of cock and bull. I have only seen a photograph of the building but the next time I am in Limerick, I will go around and see it. It is not possible to just throw up two storeys on top of a building that was designed in the 1970s to carry one storey in one part of the building and two storeys in another. The university did seek a valuation. A valuation was got from Tom Crosse of GVM Auctioneers. They said it was worth no more than €5 million. Is that correct?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

There was a valuation tabled at the negotiation stage but as I said before-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Am I correct in saying that a valuation was got from a Mr. Tom Crosse of GVM Auctioneers that valued the building at no more than €5 million? Is that correct, "Yes" or "No"?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I have not seen any written valuation report. I was not part of the negotiations.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is that incorrect? Can anybody tell me if it is incorrect?

Mr. John Kelly:

I think you might be referring, Chair, to aspects of a report where-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am not telling the witnesses where I got this information. What I am asking is whether what I am saying is incorrect. I am asking the witnesses to tell me it is incorrect. If it is not incorrect, then we have to accept it is correct. That was the only professional valuation. When was that valuation got? Was it before the crucial decision that was made at the meeting of the governing authority?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We have the information that was presented to the governing authority. You have seen the KPMG report, Chair.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Am I correct in saying that was not presented to the governing authority? Am I correct?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

You have seen, Chair, what has been seen by the governing authority.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have established that there was a valuation, because the witnesses are not able to deny that there was, which stated the building was worth no more than €5 million. The witnesses are not able to say that it was presented to the governing authority, so we have to take it that it was not presented to the governing authority. Is that correct?

Mr. John Kelly:

The briefing documents presented to the governing authority said they would value it according to a table. They did not go into the details of the valuations table.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am told by a source in the university that a decision had to be made. This site was sitting there for a long period. Dunnes Stores people are good business people. They have been knocking around a long time. They know how to value property and they know how to do deals. I think we will give them credit for that. I am sure they would have waited another 24 hours, 48 hours or maybe 72 hours for a decision on this. I am told by a source at the university that the deputy president was under the impression and stated clearly that there was no particular urgency on the governing authority to make a decision. Is that correct?

Mr. John Kelly:

With respect, I think we are delving into matters that were-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No, I am not delving into anything. What I am telling the witnesses is that my information is that the deputy president was clear that there was no particular urgency on the governing authority to make a decision, as if it was the Last Supper or a do-or-die job and had to be made at the meeting of the governing authority that night. It was stuck on and the members of the governing authority only became aware of it during the meeting or when it came to any other business. It was said: "Oh, by the way, we have an item here to buy a site for €8.34 million."

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

The Chair has seen the report. That is contested.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am not even referring to the report.

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

That is contested.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry but I am going to stop Mr. O'Connor for a second. I am not referring to the report. What I am asking is if I am correct in saying that there was no urgency whatsoever about the purchase of this site. Senior people in the university were aware of that. Is that not correct?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

The report deals with that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am not talking about the report. I do not want Mr. O'Connor to mention the report to me again. What I am asking is if I am correct in saying that there was no particular urgency on the governing authority to make this decision?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

My understanding clearly is that that is contested. There are two different positions and two different opinions in relation to that particular fact that we are discussing.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses said here before that there was an urgency. That has been published.

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

That is dealt with in the report. There are two positions in respect of that. That is my clear understanding.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. O'Connor think one of those positions be more credible than the other?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

I do not have an opinion on that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The fact is that this was put down before the supreme ruling body, the governing authority. Where the buck stops is at the board of a company. At a university the buck stops with the governing authority. Mr. O'Connor and I know this. We have been around long enough to know this. That body was misled into thinking that this had to be done before the clock struck midnight.

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

I would respectfully say that is part of the rationale for why that body then requested an investigation into the due diligence.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Here we are now in May 2023 and that same body, which is supposed to ensure good governance in the university and make decisions, is now expected to make those decisions based on the fact that it was literally walked into this without the proper information at the point when this decision was made. Now, not having seen the report, it is expected to ensure that this type of activity does not happen again. Neither the witnesses nor I can undo the past. Nobody in this room can. Tomorrow is the first day of the future. My God, if I was on the local residents’ association and we were talking about €500 being spent on signs coming into the estate and something like this happened, as a member of the association, I would be trying to make sure this did not happen again. We are talking about €8.34 million. We are also talking about taxpayers’ money. Do the witnesses not accept that there is a credibility issue here? It is absolutely untenable for the governing authority to be put in this position.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

If I could come in here, I would like to refer to our new policy. I have it with me and I can show it to you, Chair. It is for the acquisition of-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No.

Professor Kerstin Mey:

-----and which takes account of the university's acts and practice of governance.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No, I am sorry, but this situation has led to a number of appearances before this committee. A detailed report has been carried out on it. There has been an awful lot of public commentary on it, most of it accurate, some not totally accurate. Does Professor Mey not find that there is a credibility issue here in terms of the good citizens of this State who sit on the governing authority? They are being put in a position without having full sight of the report and the opportunity to consider it. Is there not an issue also that while they are trusted with the good governance of the university, they cannot be trusted to read the report, in the same way as the members of this committee have? They have not been trusted. It has not even been made available in a room, in the way it has been made available to me and the committee members. Do the witnesses honestly think that is credible? I make that point to everybody looking in here today. If I am wrong, I am wrong, but I find it absolutely incredible, having sat on the boards of various bodies over the years. I am gobsmacked by the fact that this happened. I understand that Professor Mey was not there at the time but the fact is that a very small group of senior people in the university decided, based on legal advice, that these citizens who sit on the governing authority are not to be trusted with even having sight of it to read it in a room, without copying it or taking it away. Does Mr. Kelly want to comment or give me an answer to that?

Mr. John Kelly:

I was going to say a couple of things but, first, it goes without saying that we are anxious to deal with this report decisively and to put it to bed satisfactorily.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am sure the members of the governing authority are anxious as well.

Mr. John Kelly:

Yes, they very much are.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Surely the first thing you would do is let them see the bloody thing.

Mr. John Kelly:

They very much are. As I mentioned, a discussion was had between the president and the chancellor in relation to the legal proceedings. What we did do to the governing authority on legal advice was we extracted the recommendations from the KPMG report.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know that. Mr. Kelly said that earlier in the meeting.

They were given wrong information before. It is in those two pages with photographs on the back. It was on the night before the meeting. That is wrong information. I could use stronger language but I am trying to go easy on the witnesses. It is a load of cock and bull that is in it, based on the facts we know now. We know that stuff is completely off the wall. Consider if I was a member of the governing authority and was being asked to take the witnesses' word again. I am not accusing anyone here but would you not have a thought in the back of your mind about whether this is a case of “here we go again”, that you are not being trusted and have not been given sight of the KPMG report? Do the witnesses understand from a human and trust point of view what I am trying to say?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I understand the Cathaoirleach’s frustration, that of the Committee of Public Accounts and that of the governing authority. The recommendations of the independent report have been implemented. The evidence of that implementation has been produced. Assurances have been given that we have acted on the shortcomings identified by the KPMG report. We have acted decisively and applied our new policy for the acquisition of property to the letter.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The governing authority has been put in a very difficult situation.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is clear that Professor Mey is in no way culpable for the mistakes of the past, but the attitude adopted here today has been less than helpful or forthcoming. There have been evasive answers to legitimate questions put by members to Professor Mey and her colleagues. I will make one recommendation. I hope the witnesses have the receipts for the media consultants they engaged in preparation for this. I would be going back looking for a full refund because I do not think that was value for money.

On the costs, it is clearly established now that there was no independent valuation sought or obtained for the site. The proposal made at the end of a three or three and a half hour meeting to the governing authority was very much a gun put to their head insisting a quick decision was needed. The engineering assessment suggests the structure of the building is designed to support additional floors overhead and the site has the potential to accommodate significant building. It goes on to say negotiations took account of equivalent building costs, site value return and use value. All of that is not based on fact or analysis, and that is clearly established.

The engagement of UL with Arup consultants was carried out in early May. Arup was asked to do an assessment of the site. Am I correct in that?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Yes, you are correct.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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One of Arup's conclusions was that the structural frame is unlikely to have been designed to support a further seven to eight storey office building overhead; so a few weeks after that decision was taken, we have clear evidence based on fact that the site was not suitable. The value of the site was based on the potential to develop the existing building. Am I right in saying that?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We have no written valuation, so are we talking speculatively on that?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We are talking speculatively, okay. I will talk about fact. Professor Mey has said repeatedly that a master plan is being looked at. What does that look like in relation to the structure on site now? Does it envisage demolishing that and a total rebuild?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

We are working in partnership with Limerick City and County Council on the development of a master plan that is part of the overall world-class waterfront for which we got money allocated through URDF. We will make an assessment of the extent to which the existing building can be transformed using the existing structure and being mindful that one of the key aims of the site is to establish a beacon of sustainability. We will have to look carefully at the extent to which the existing structure can be developed in order to achieve our ambitions to have a landmark building and establish the functions of an engagement hub in the city centre so that we can engage-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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On it being retendered for the third time, the governing authority authorised that in December and the gross cost is estimated at €34 million. The original estimation was €18 million. Is that correct?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

It is not correct. The Deputy is referring now to our new student centre on the Casteltroy campus. The original building cost of that student centre was €20 million.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I had an opportunity to look at daft.ie. I am sure Professor Mey is aware of it. It lists a site in Limerick city for sale as we speak: it is a 0.8 acre site, about a ten minute walk from the site we are talking about, the Dunnes Stores site, and has full planning permission. The value of that site is €375,000. It is a city centre location. Is Professor Mey surprised at that?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I cannot comment on that because I have not seen what the Deputy has seen on daft.ie. We have a substantive building of 5,500 sq. m------

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am trying to show everything that has been established, including the failure to have due diligence and proper governance, has cost extraordinary amounts of money to the taxpayer. The witnesses have not been able to put a figure on it. I hope they will come back before the committee. A site still has not been developed. UL is still working on a master plan. The cost is over €8 million. A site ten minutes’ walk away of a similar size could be purchased by UL now for €375,000. That speaks volumes about the waste of money and the lack of oversight or proper governance. We are trying to establish how much money has been wasted. The witnesses have been unable to put a figure on it. I hope I have helped to create a figure. The public will make up its own mind on what has gone on here and on the complete waste of taxpayers' money.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The engagement at the committee today reminds me of a child having raided the sweet jar and you are questioning the child, who is in continual denial, but you can see the chocolate all around their mouth.

Professor Mey has been here before and I have said this to her several times. On the last appearance or the time before, it was confirmed there was a whistleblower. It was confirmed by Dr. Alan Wall in the Higher Education Authority. Professor Mey said it was on foot of a freedom of information request, did she not? There was a whistleblower, was there not?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

Is the Deputy referring to the Dunnes Stores site?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Yes, I am referring to the Dunnes Stores site.

Mr. John Kelly:

I do not believe so.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It was confirmed by Professor Mey at the last committee that an employee of UL raised the matter of the Dunnes Stores site in a protected disclosure. Subsequently it was withdrawn.

The object of the question is what Professor Mey did about it. Ultimately, what pre-empted the KPMG report was the probing of the Comptroller and Auditor General and this committee. It was not something done voluntarily on a freedom of information request, was it, Professor Mey?

Professor Kerstin Mey:

I cannot comment on the protected disclosure.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. O'Connor seems to want to answer. Is he aware of the whistleblower that was confirmed at the previous meeting?

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

I am not 100% certain. This was before my time. I am trying to be helpful.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. O'Connor has interjected a few times to tell us-----

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

I am trying to be helpful. I understand there was a protected disclosure of which there was an investigation, that was referred to previously, called the McKenna report. I was not involved in this-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Professor Mey must have forgotten that or it did not come up in communication training.

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

However, the KPMG investigation, as President Mey has said-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Do not go back to the KPMG report. This pre-empts that. I am going to say this. Forget about it-----

Mr. Bobby O'Connor:

-----was done because of the FOI request.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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-----because lessons are only learned when you get your hand caught in the sweet jar. There is no denying. You are there; your hand is in it. The reality is it does not matter. No lessons are learned unless there is accountability. I can clearly see here that somebody is of the understanding that just because we commissioned the KPMG report for, as I said, part of the arse covering, that does not show accountability.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is unparliamentary language.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is not really, a Chathaoirligh, to be fair. It describes the situation as we are discussing it.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Furthermore, I do not believe it is credible for Professor Mey to come in here and say she is concerned about the students who were hard-pressed for cash and that was part of the reason she took a judicial review of Irish Water. These are the same students that she absolutely refused to reimburse for prepaid accommodation during Covid-19 when they could not use that accommodation. They could not attend UL other than through the Internet. She steadfastly refused, saying she had nothing to do with the student accommodation. Furthermore, these were the same students she had been charging since 2016 for a student facility that is not yet built, is it? Are they still paying that student levy to go towards a building for the past seven years that is not yet built? Really, I am saying she has no credibility. It is gone.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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