Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Apologies have been received from Senators Gerard Craughwell and Regina Doherty. Deputy Brian Leddin is substituting for Deputy Steven Matthews. Today's meeting comprises two sessions. Session 1 is with the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, who is very welcome, as always, and officials from the Department of Transport. Session 2, at approximately 3 p.m., will be a meeting with Mr. Declan Fitzpatrick, the new chief executive officer of the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA. The purpose of the first session is for the committee to continue to discuss the transport sector emission ceiling. We are joined by the Minister, Deputy Ryan, and his officials. I am pleased to welcome the Minister, on behalf of the committee.

I have a note on privilege for witnesses and members. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside of the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via MS Teams to confirm, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus. If attending in the committee room, people are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.

I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank members for the invitation to discuss our sectoral emissions ceilings in transport. I appreciate the opportunity to outline how my Department is proposing to comply with these carbon budgets in accordance with the decarbonisation pathway we set out in the Climate Action Plan 2023. I am joined by my officials, Ms Andrea Lennon from the climate adaptation, research and energy division, Ms Patricia Waller from zero emission vehicles Ireland, Mr. John Martin from the climate engagement and governance division, Mr. Naoise Grisewood from the climate engagement and governance division and Mr. William Priestley from the maritime transport division, which leads across the climate mitigation and adaptation efforts in the Department of Transport.

The engagement is timely. We are now approaching both the midway point of our first carbon budget to 2025, the first full year under the sectoral emissions ceilings agreed by the Government last July and the first year of implementation under our national sustainable mobility policy, which was published last April. Under this sectoral emissions ceiling and carbon budget programme, the transport sector must achieve emissions abatement of 50% relative to 2018 baseline levels of 12.2 megatonnes of CO2 equivalent by 2030. This abatement must also be achieved in a manner that is consistent with the total carbon budget of 54 million tonnes of CO2 equivalent over the first carbon budget period 2021 to 2025 and of 37 million tonnes of CO2 equivalent over the second carbon budget period from 2026 to 2030.

I am pleased to report that I believe the transport sector currently remains on profile for compliance with our first carbon budget of 54 megatonnes for the five-year period from 2021 to 2025. Early estimates of final 2022 emissions, as reported by the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, in its recent interim energy balance suggests that, in total, 40.1% of the first five-year carbon budget for transport has been expended over the first two years, 2021 and 2022. However, our compliance with our sectoral emissions ceiling is finally balanced and I cannot overstate the level and scale of the challenge we face in transport to ensure we stay in compliance with our carbon budget over future years. Colleagues will be aware that a significant share of the emissions abatement achieved in the transport sector over these two years resulted from a reduced level of transport activity experienced as the country was still emerging from Covid-19 and the relaxation of public health restrictions in 2021.

We believe such levels of activity have returned back to pre-Covid levels and are reflected in the growth and fuel usage reported by SEAI, which saw diesel use increase by 5% and petrol use by 13.6% in 2022. Although this trend is concerning, these increases have been mitigated to a degree by the buoyant uptake of electric vehicles, EVs, with some 88,000 EVs now on our roads, and the strong recovery of public transport patronage and the roll-out of additional public transport services over the past year. We are now seeing total weekly Luas and bus journeys exceed pre-pandemic levels, with total weekly bus journeys outside of Dublin 28% to 30% higher compared with the numbers of the journeys in the same week in 2019. Nevertheless, there remains an urgent imperative to halt further unsustainable growth in our fossil fuel usage and decouple our transport systems from reliance on fossil fuels in order that we can accelerate the pace and scale of climate action in this decade.

The climate action plan is the first instance that these carbon budgets and sectoral emissions ceilings have been incorporated in our annual climate action plan, and the new transport chapter reflects both the level of challenge and the system change required to deliver 50% emission abatement in transport, alongside a vision for the wider wellbeing co-benefits we are trying to achieve through such transformation of our transport systems. The proposed decarbonisation pathway and work programmes set out therein have been informed by both the joint OECD and Climate Change Advisory Council, CCAC, Redesigning Ireland's Transport for Net Zero detailed report published last October, which found our existing transport system fosters growing car use and emissions by design, and transport modelling undertaken by the National Transport Authority, NTA, to identify the level of change required to achieve 50% emission abatement by 2030 and to inform further policy design.

Our consultative process included extensive engagements and workshops with agencies, academia and wider transport stakeholders, and I am happy that the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, 2023 transport chapter represents a refocused policy approach to that of CAP 2021, which takes account of that input as we pivot towards an avoid-shift-improve framework for greater transport sustainability. In total, we have identified 15 key high-impact work programmes we have grouped under this framework, alongside some cost-cutting, horizontal and adaptation-focused work programmes. These programmes build on and incorporate key actions and interventions identified under our national sustainable mobility policy, our road haulage strategy, our national EV charging infrastructure strategy and the zero emission vehicles Ireland, ZEVI, work programme, and our renewable transport fuels policy, all of which have been developed and published over the past year or so. Our approach has ensured a far greater integration of climate action across all transport modes and ensured these links are more closely integrated with our spatial and land use planning systems.

Members will be aware I am on record as stating that I believe achieving our target of 50% emissions abatement in transport by 2030 will be the most difficult of all sectors and, in this way, the key performance indicators, KPIs, and headline 2030 targets in the chapter, which have been informed by our transport modelling, make it abundantly clear just how transformative the required level and scale of change to meet a 50% reduction will be. In effect, we will need to reduce total vehicle kilometres travelled by some 20%, achieve a 50% reduction in fossil fuel usage in transport, and accelerate vehicle fleet transition in order that approximately one in three private cars is a battery electric vehicle by 2030. We have to ensure walking, cycling and public transport account for 50% of daily journeys, which will require a 50% increase in daily active travel journeys, a 130% increase in daily public transport journeys and a 25% reduction in daily car journeys.

I will be happy to speak further to these work programmes and targets in our discussion, but I must stress that to increase both the pace of emissions reduction in transport and improve public wellbeing will require a wider systemic response. We must improve how our planning and transport systems work together to accelerate the pace of infrastructure delivery and ensure all our agencies and delivery bodies have the capacity and skills required to support the roll-out of necessary infrastructure, minimising undue delays that may emerge at the required consultation and review stages. These steps are essential to enable individuals to make sustainable transport choices in their own lives as we seek to scale those policies that have real transformative potential and capacity to shift our transport systems away from car dependency through road space reallocation, the mainstreaming of on-demand shared services, communication efforts to address car-centric mindsets, and by supplying the necessary charging infrastructure and enhanced public transport services to provide our public with viable, sustainable alternatives.

While fleet electrification and the continued use of biofuels will continue to provide the greatest share of emissions abatement in the medium term, a key recognition of CAP 2023 is that the required level of transport emissions abatement cannot be achieved through reliance on technological improvements alone. Approximately 2 million tonnes of emissions abatement will have to be achieved through a basis of avoid-and-shift measures that address the basic demand for transport and support behavioural change and modal shift from private car usage at an individual level. Considerable activity is under way and I look forward to the committee's support and contribution as we seek to accelerate and progress the implementation of such measures.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister and his staff for coming in. It will be a mammoth task to reduce emissions by 50%. I will get into a few of the small details. It is my understanding that more densely populated areas are the ones in which we would be able to have most impact because we can put public transport in place that is not going long distances and is moving rapidly through the area. As the Minister mentioned in his opening remarks, these reductions will require making more space for public transport. I am aware the idea is that through bus and other forms of public transport in particular, the number of journeys and capacity will be trebled. To do that, what investment will need to be put in place and how quickly will that be done?

I think the public are up for this. They wants to play their part, but people find it difficult to believe in it when they go to get public transport that is always late, does not turn up or is not available at the times they need. If I were to take the train to Dublin from Leitrim, where I live, the last train leaves at 7.15 p.m. and I am usually not finished here until well after that time. Such is the case for many people. We need to have an understanding there has to be big investment for this to work and the investment will have to come from Government, initially, to front-load it and get people to build their confidence. I would like to hear the Minister's response to that.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Both urban and rural are centrally important. In rural public transport we have the potential to make a real leap. The distances travelled are often longer so if we are switching to lower-carbon transport fuel systems that could bring big reductions. We are also rolling out the BusConnects programme which has seen a really significant increase in public transport use in many rural areas. I think rural is as important as urban.

Making more space for public transport is a huge challenge. I often focus on that because it does not necessarily require a huge budget. I will give an example. Deputy Martin Kenny and I were in Sligo the week before last. He is up to speed with the proposals where there is consideration to go ahead with the S3, the third of the Sligo town bus routes. The first two are working very well and have been very successful. When I came back from Sligo I was asking questions about this and the key consideration of that as a roll-out is making decisions, which Sligo County Council will have to do, on giving priority for buses through the centre of the town and effectively reducing or taking the volume of traffic on some streets. That does not require a huge capital budget. It might often be signage rather than structural. That is an example of where, if we have the political commitment to reallocate space and make public transport work, then we can expand it. The big issue around finance is on the current side. I think we have €580 million public service obligation, PSO, this year. We would expect that even in the next year or two, with the expansion of new public transport services, that may go up to something like €800 million. That is from the current budget which was always much more difficult. Capital is an easier one to increase at the moment because it is one-off expenditure but current, by its nature, is recurring. That will be the big challenge. We have seen a huge increase in public transport in the last year. It is part driven by the 20% reduction in fares and the 50%, which works out in effect at a 60%, for those under 24 years. We will not reverse that, in my mind. I know some Members have been arguing we should go to free public transport but I have the issue of how we meet that €800 million call we will have in the coming years to support public transport. Most Deputies will agree that we should continue to expand the offer. We will continue to roll out Connecting Ireland. As those projects become full-year service payments, that will have a big cost call but I think it is right to put the money into the current side to support PSOs. Many of the capital projects can be done at relatively low cost to promote bus services with the kinds of measures such as that in Sligo town where it is about taking out some of the through traffic in the town centre.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One of the big issues around that is finding staff to drive these buses. That is one of the things we come across all the time. What plans are in place in respect of that?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a big issue. In Dublin, both Go-Ahead and Dublin Bus are advertising. I am hearing they are starting to get the staff. The very large advertising campaigns have seen people coming in. It is not just drivers that are a real challenge but also maintenance staff. Many bus companies find that they might have very good staff but there are very attractive salaries in other industries which require many of the same skills. People like fitters have the same mechanical skills. We have to meet this challenge. It is a priority that we expand our public transport service and we will do everything to assist the companies to get those additional staff.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would that not require higher salaries for people working in the sector?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think that is happening. Dublin Bus has reached agreement with the unions on a pay deal. Across the economy, the pressure in getting people is seeing wages increase.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will focus first on the implications of the carbon budget for rural Ireland with limited transport provisions. Given that 50% of the emission reductions in the transport sector by 2030 is considered the most difficult of all sectors, will the Minister elaborate on the measures to reduce the total number of kilometres travelled by vehicles by 20%? How does he plan to encourage and incentivise individuals to adopt alternative modes of transportation or reduce their overall reliance on private vehicles?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On where I see the 20% reduction, when I visit most agencies, Departments or other organisations, my first question is how many days a week do people come in. It has roughly halved on the level prior to Covid. Many people are working from home. This is of real benefit to rural Ireland because people are increasingly making decisions to work remotely. The digital hubs we are setting up in towns across the country are proving very effective as centres for enterprise and where people can work, not necessarily from home but from the local village or town. That is one of the ways we could see a very significant decrease in overall kilometre numbers.

Second, you could pick any town or county, but the most successful towns are the ones that have a really good sense of public realm and people have an attractive environment in which they can walk or cycle to school or walk to the pub and where they do not have to drive everywhere. Towns that have good urban characteristics, as it were, are the ones to which people are looking to move and where the investment is going into and businesses are doing better. The concept of the 15 minute town is a real one and a good one and it plays to our strengths. We have this incredible network of beautiful 19th century market towns. Some are doing really well and in others there is a lot of vacancy and under-use of the incredible asset we have. I am going around to councils -----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, but there is still an over-reliance on private cars in rural areas in relation to the target of reducing reliance on the car by 20%. Unless we roll out adequate public transport provision in rural areas, that reliance will continue. Achieving a 50% reduction in fossil fuel usage in transport is also a significant goal. What incentives are being considered to accelerate the transition to a more sustainable fuel source?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is right. Better alternatives in public transport are needed. I argue that this Government, unlike any other, has been investing in that. In the last year we have been rolling out a new rural bus service every week. That is just in rural areas.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not hearing the response on the provision of adequate public transport in rural areas and how we will incentivise people to use alternative modes of transport and not be as reliant as they are on their private cars.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is why you have to have the alternative. Prior to this Government, that scale of investment in rural bus transport was not there. It had been in decline for decades. As the OECD said, we had, by design, created a car-centric system. That is changing. We are investing very significantly in rural public transport and having that alternative will make a huge difference.

For those who do have to drive, I believe the benefits of electric vehicles will be felt there first. One of the real challenges we have in urban areas is how people charge the car if they do not have a driveway.

This is much less of a problem in rural Ireland where many houses are one-off houses on their own in the country. There we do not have a challenge with how to charge the vehicles. This makes it much easier to get high levels of deployment of electric vehicles. I understand when people say they are still expensive. They are but they are coming down in price. In the very near future we can expect pretty much all car manufacturers to have an electric offering. This would be as beneficial to rural Ireland, if not more beneficial, because many people in urban Ireland will have the frustrating experience that they can charge at home. In rural Ireland this will be a lot less of a problem. This is one of the ways we can switch away from fossil fuels.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister has spoken about electrification. We spoke about new fuel sources such as biofuel and green hydrogen. Will the green hydrogen strategy be published soon?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It will. I have spoken to one of the officials who was at a meeting on this this morning. We expect it to be published very shortly. Green hydrogen will have a real role in our country because we will have surplus electricity which we will be looking to convert. It is likely that it will be first used where there is existing use of hydrogen, for example, in refineries. We would expect it to have significant potential use for large industrial heating needs, which are hard to decarbonise otherwise. There will be potential development in the transport sector. It is likely first to be in shipping, sustainable aviation fuels or very heavy transport uses that would be easy to electrify. I do not think the exact role of hydrogen in the transport system will go down to the car. It may have a potential use in trucks. We have already trialled buses on hydrogen. My expectation is that initially it will be used for more heavier transport and on the industrial side. This is where the first uses will take hold.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister and his officials. I thank Deputy Matthews for allowing me to substitute for him today. I congratulate the Minister and the Department for all the work that has been done. I support the Minister's comments that the Government, more than any other in many decades, has ramped up investment in public transport rail and bus and active travel walking and cycling. We are starting to see the changes and I commend the Minister and his team on all of this work. We are starting to see a systemic shift in how we do mobility in this country.

I want to raise several points which I have raised previously with the Minister. I am sure he will appreciate the opportunity to speak about them. There is a challenge in introducing electric vehicles to our transport system. Good progress has been made. However, from a climate point of view unless we remove the fossil fuel vehicles as well we may not achieve our carbon emissions reduction targets in transport. I am mindful that with our increasing population these fossil fuel vehicles will not be scrapped but will continue to be driven around. Unless we have a policy to displace the fossil fuel vehicle fleet it will be difficult to meet the target.

The policy with respect to electric vehicles is to encourage them, for good reason, but not all electric vehicles are the same. The lighter and smaller vehicles are less carbon intensive than the larger and heavier ones. Even in a system where 80% of our electricity comes from renewables 20% of it will be still from fossil fuels. This is if we achieve the ambitious target that we have. We have to be mindful of the 20% of electricity which will be sourced from fossil fuels. It could be at least this figure into the 2030s. In this regard it makes sense to have policies towards incentivising smaller and lighter vehicles over and above larger and heavier ones. I am interested to hear the thoughts of the Minister on evolving policy to encourage the uptake of these.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree with Deputy Leddin that lighter and smaller is better than heavier and bigger. Deputy Leddin might have also said "cheaper" because the reality is that very large vehicles, and there has been a trend towards large vehicles in recent years which is a concern, are much more expensive. The Government has given clear signals through changes to the tax system in VRT and motor tax, whereby the system is significantly incentivised towards lighter and, therefore, cheaper vehicles. This has had an impact but we still see a large number of larger vehicles on the market. We will continue to review this.

I agree with Deputy Leddin that the switch to electric vehicles is very beneficial in climate terms and very much to be desired for energy security reasons. They are also better cars. They have lower running costs and lower maintenance. There is another issue as it is not only about the climate. We have an issue that if we just replace all fossil fuel cars with electric vehicles we will still have the gridlock problems that we have. We have a mathematical difficulty, particularly in many of our towns and cities. If everyone drives them no one gets anywhere quickly because everyone gets stuck in traffic. We were already seeing a cost of congestion prior to Covid. There was an estimate a number of years ago that congestion was costing €300 million or €400 million a year with a projection to increase to €2 billion a year. It is not just this cost. There is the cost to well-being and creating an urban environment that is less safe and dominated by cars. Electric vehicles have a very important role. We need to switch as fast as we can from fossil fuels. As I said in my introductory remarks, this on its own is not the full picture. We cannot rely only on technological solutions. We need a system change towards a much healthier transport system in every way and a more efficient transport system.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The time is up.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I also asked about the policy on displacement and getting rid of fossil fuel cars out of the system.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We do not have a scrappage scheme. I am always nervous about scrappage schemes because there is an embodied environmental cost in the manufacture of any car. If we see the lifecycle of a vehicle come to an abrupt end it might not be the most optimal for the environment. We have to make sure everything is safe and meets safety standards. I am uncertain about scrappage schemes because I am very conscious of the embodied energy in an already constructed vehicle.

Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The concern is that we will not be able to meet the targets unless we remove these vehicles from the roads.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The real key to meeting the target is achieving a modal shift to public transport, walking and cycling and reducing the overall number of kilometres driven. This will have a much more significant impact. The modelling shows that if we deliver the electric vehicle targets it will get us so far but even going further than this is not the be all and end all. It will happen anyway. We are ahead of schedule in the roll-out of electric vehicles. They have taken off quickly not only here but around the world. I do not expect this to be the really difficult challenge. The real challenge will be in the promotion of walking, cycling and public transport and reducing the overall volume of traffic. This will be the key to determining whether we meet our targets.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is good to have the Minister with us for this discussion. I want to make a number of points. We have been in government since July 2020.

Since the Minister has held his portfolio, and this is not a reflection on him but on the system we all have to deal with, not a single kilometre of new rail line has been laid in the country. This is a reflection of the chaotic planning system we have. We had the head of An Bord Pleanála before the Committee of Public Accounts a few weeks ago and we were told that the processing of applications by the board should be at a rate of around 300 decisions being made monthly but that it currently stands at floating between 50 to 70 monthly. Is it any surprise, therefore, that we are where we are? I refer to it taking 20 to 30 years of debate, discussion and misery to try to develop a proper transport system, especially in rail.

The Minister speaks often and eloquently about the modal shift, but in many parts of the country this is just not achievable without putting in the required investment. I am not trying to knock the Minister. I think he is a good man. I do, however, have a deep frustration at the work that has been done by several State agencies, the Department of Transport and all these quangos we have created in an effort to create better public policy, which have resulted in an infrastructural deficit that is so bad it made the front page of the Business Postlast Sunday. I agree fully with that headline. As policymakers and back bench Deputies supporting Ministers like the Minister, Deputy Ryan, and giving them the offices they hold, I think we must be honest about where we are, and it is deeply disappointing.

The other thing I wish to get off my chest is the length of time it is taking the State even to make a decision concerning connecting the main airport in the country to the public transport system. The Minister talks about a modal shift, but the car parks in Dublin Airport are full and this is to do with the fact that in many parts of the country there is no proper alternative to driving a car to the airport. The lack of a heavy rail connection from Dublin Airport to the State's rail service at this stage is something I would almost call humiliating. I refer to how long it has taken us to do this.

I would love to get a sense from the Minister then, and he has been in his role for several years now and he served in the Cabinet before as well, of what it is going to take for civil servants in this country to wake up and deal with the challenges we need to deal with. I say this because we have been so busy talking about them. Ultimately, the Minister and I take the blame in this regard. We are the ones who must go before the electorate and, potentially, lose our seats because of what those voters see as a lack of action. I just wanted to ask the Minister this question because I think it is incredible how slow the pace of delivery is here.

The Minister and I have had our disagreements in the past, particularly concerning the bypass in east Cork, but I will say this to him. At the meeting about the public spending code, I said that it was pretty much a useless instrument to stall and delay projects. I see that reforms are now coming. Two years later, someone has decided we should probably do something about the public spending code. I was talking about this two years ago, and I was nearly laughed at when I made the suggestion. I just wanted to take a minute to highlight this aspect as well and that it is only now that people seem to be realising that it has never been used once to block a project. Yet here we are allowing this process to potentially add an additional year and a half onto getting something from concept to delivery. What has gone wrong? Why are we not able to say that something is needed in the national interest and to go and do it rather than tying ourselves up in knots?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree with much of what the Deputy said. Starting with the public spending code, the review of the national development plan, NDP, itself included a significant chapter that recognised that we had created in our public spending code processes too complex a system and one with too many layers. It might perhaps be argued that we are fighting the last war in the sense that, having been through the financial crash, there was a need for tight management of public finances, but incorrectly, we saw public capital expenditure fall behind. We are now playing catch-up in this regard in respect of housing, transport, energy and water. I agree with the Deputy as well that our processes are not quick enough. Our public spending code is overelaborate and complicated. Similarly, in our planning system, there has, in truth, been a lack of resources for An Bord Pleanála. This was based on concerns regarding budgetary pressures, etc. Additionally, and unluckily, some once-off difficulties within the board now see it playing catch up and having a backlog to deal with. It is true this is really impacting us in transport. This situation is being rectified. There is a full board of 15 in An Bord Pleanála now. There has also been a change in work practices and increased staff so that it is possible for us to catch up.

If I were to pick out examples of projects we need to get through planning quickly, I think the Cork metropolitan rail development would stand out first because, potentially, this undertaking would draw down European funding. It is therefore right that this project would be commenced. It is also vital for regional development that is better balanced. Equally, this project is ready to go and it is not going to take long. We can build it quickly. The Deputy mentioned Dublin Airport. The full planning application for the MetroLink project, all 10,000 pages of it, is in. I would say it is the most detailed application ever made in the history of this State for any project. I am confident about the quality of work and the quality of our officials. I do not see this as being the restricting factor. We do need to speed up in our planning processes.

We are in government, so we have the responsibility here. I believe the draft planning legislation is going to be very beneficial. No matter what way we look at it, our planning system is slow. It is not dysfunctional, but it is not fast. Increasingly, there is a cost to this being the case, in respect of housing, energy and transport. It is, therefore, important we get this legislation delivered.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With the indulgence of the Cathaoirleach, I just want to make a suggestion concerning planning. I do not like throwing stones without giving solutions. There is a big habit here in the Oireachtas of doing this. Regarding An Bord Pleanála, and Ms Oonagh Buckley said she was open to this as well, when the board is being reformed, we must separate out the system where there is a key infrastructure project, whether this a new metro or rail line or a hospital. There is a need to have a separate process dealing with decisions of this type, whether it concerns a rail order submission or an objection. I refer to a process that is different from that undertaken regarding, for example, Nancy's bungalow, where some neighbour has made a complaint about the extension made to the side of the house.

Instead of having all the planning applications bundled into one queue, which is pretty much what is going on in the board now, and the representatives of the board partially admitted this the last day they appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts, they should be separated out. A strategic infrastructure unit should be established that deals with these types of projects. Such a unit could even be broken down further. A team of 50 people in An Bord Pleanála could be dealing specifically with applications concerning public transport projects. To deal with the decarbonisation of transport in Ireland, we obviously need this type of approach for all the forthcoming decisions that will have to be made and the associated pain around bus lanes and new rail infrastructure and lines, as well as the development of airport infrastructure.

Ultimately, all these types of decisions will come down the line and the decision-making process in this regard must be separated out from the nitty-gritty of small planning objections. I say this because the system in place now is a joke. Fifty decisions are being made monthly when there is a need to process 300. How in God's name is this sustainable? It is not. There is nothing the Minister can say to me in response to tell me things are okay, because they are not. I refer as well to the hiring and recruitment of the additional staff in An Bord Pleanála. This is linked to the work of the Minister's Department as well, although it does concern local government. This aspect is entirely linked to the pace of delivery the Minister can effect.

The filling of these staffing vacancies is just not happening quickly enough. Every Minister tells me a lot is being done. In reality, however, when we look at the additional numbers of staff being taken on, it is pitiful. The total represents less than 10% growth in the size of the organisation compared with its staff complement last year. Could international expertise not be brought in and the bloody salaries required be paid? I know that a great deal of money would need to be paid in this regard, but the return for the economy in speeding up the delivery of infrastructure would be counted not in tens or even hundreds of millions of euro but in billions of euro. I just cannot see why a gaggle of senior civil servants and officials in State agencies seem to be arguing over what is or is not the right thing to do when it is so bloody visible. It is so frustrating.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy's time is up.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As I said, we have been in government for as long as we have been now and we must go back to the electorate to tell them we have delivered. At the moment, though, it is hard to see where the progress is. Congestion is getting worse. We are not delivering at the pace we need to rail and other public infrastructure. This was my two cent on the issue.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am confident that at the end of the lifetime of this Government, in a year and ten months' time, we will be able to show a real record of achievement across a variety of different areas. Yes, we do want to go faster, but I do believe we will be able to show the record of delivery the Deputy referred to.

The point the Deputy made is valid. We need not only to resource An Bord Pleanála but also to resource the local authorities more. In truth, Mrs. Murphy's planning decision for the back extension, compared to Cork metropolitan rail, for example, is best managed and handled at local government level. When filling the positions, which we are doing in An Bord Pleanála, some of the best people are coming from local government. Our economy, and our country, is at full tilt. We are at full employment and the skills we need in planning relating to some of the technical areas or engineering and other skills are limited. It is a question of how we prioritise and where we give most attention. We need to focus on housing and, connected to that, transport and energy. I might include water as well because it is connected to housing. All four of those are connected.

I am absolutely confident that, with the introduction of this planning legislation, we will see a system that is far quicker. I have confidence in the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage and his Department in delivering that and I have confidence in An Bord Pleanála. We have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater here. Some people see the entire edifice as being not fit for purpose because of some shortage in resourcing and some individual problems. I do not agree with that. Fine-tuning and quickening the process rather than throwing it all out and trying to start again is the best way for us to go. Doing that would take longer.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for attending. I will continue in a similar vein. Emissions reports have come out for the final quarter of last year and the World Meteorological Organization, WMO's, report is out today. They all point towards the need for a step change and if not increased ambition, increased action and delivery. We hear it from the CCAC and the Minister hears it the same way I do. In his approach to the budget this year, recognising the budget surplus, the constraints of the existing budget and the constraints of the national development plan, what scope does he think there is to increase or speed up delivery and increase ambition if required? Is that something he would be looking to achieve?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We should be careful about some of the statistics we are hearing at the moment on emissions. My understanding is that the emissions report from EUROSTAT from the fourth quarter of last year is complicated because it includes international aviation metrics. We should wait for the EPA's inventory details, which it typically publishes in July each year. Otherwise we will be confusing people with a range of different statistics that might not give an accurate picture of what is happening. I agree with the Deputy on the WMO report. The risk of us exceeding the 1.5°C temperature increase globally within the next five years is very high and all the consequences of that, including the risk of crossing tipping points, means we have to do everything in every sector to play our part in making the switch.

I also agree with him that the focus needs to be on what can be done in the next two to three years, not just on targets to the end of the decade or later in the century. One of my key jobs is delivering the pathfinder projects that we have in place. There are 35 of them. We launched the fourth one this week. I might give a couple of examples off the top of my head that do not necessarily require a huge financial commitment. They require a political commitment, often at a local government level. There is a proposal in Naas for a pathfinder project to stop through traffic on the main street. There is a very good alternative inner diversion that would allow for traffic heading in different directions and would transform the centre of town. It also has the potential to connect the various active travel projects, greenways and so on, that have been built connecting to Sallins and other areas. The council has to make that decision. If it does not, the funding of some €20-odd million will be and should be reallocated to another project.

I will give another example that might give a certain amount of hope. There is a real requirement for us to revolutionise the transport system in Limerick. The first step has been taken there. As I understand, the council has agreed to the idea of the pathfinder project to link the three universities in the city. There is broad agreement in the council on that although there are some finer details that have to be worked out around how it goes by close to Mary Immaculate College. That is a political decision that we can make now. Again, cost is not a huge issue there. It is about the willingness to reallocate space.

I mentioned Sligo town earlier in response to Deputy Kenny. I will give another example because I just happened to be there last week. There is a really interesting and innovative project there that will connect the university, the hospital and the centre of the town with high-quality cycling infrastructure and a new sustainable bridge across the River Garavogue. It is those sort of projects that could be delivered quickly and that have to be delivered. If there are not deliverable by 2025, they are not going to be done. That is one of the key projects but I could list every one of the 35. If we deliver those, that will show how we can work fast and deliver quickly.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputy O'Rourke. I am going to take a little bit of time at this stage. The Minister has touched on a lot of issues and we have covered quite a lot. He referenced planning in his opening statement. We need to examine the concept of where we are building everything from our houses and dwellings to jobs. I recall at one stage being on the regional authority and being told that County Meath had the worst houses to jobs ratio in the country - no offence to Deputy O'Rourke - and they were looking to build more houses. How are we doing in making sure that people's living and working spaces are near each other? That does not just have a benefit in terms of emissions but also has a huge benefit for quality of life due to not having to spend hours a day commuting, regardless of how people are getting from one place to the other. We should give people those jobs in counties such as Leitrim, Sligo and Meath where people end up quite often having to travel long distances to work.

Remote working is helpful in that regard and the broadband roll-out is good. I heard this comment from somebody involved with commercial property. They said that in terms of transport emissions, Covid was great but instead of having 1,000 people in an office building, we now have 1,000 people trying to heat their homes individually all day. Transport emissions are down but perhaps home heating emissions or emissions from that kind of thing are up. Obviously, retrofitting and so on is important but there is often a difficulty in getting people to do the retrofitting, finding people to install solar panels and wrap houses and so on.

I did my bit today. I cycled in today, as I do most days, trying to cut my journey time but that is not for everybody and people of certain ages cannot do it. Maybe we should consider giving everybody a bike when they enter secondary school. We could lend them a bike to try if they do not already have a bike. Not everybody would have a bike. Maybe we could monitor the bikes and track them to see if they are being used. If the bike is being used every day to go to and from school, let people have it for free, and if it is not being used, we could get it back and give it to someone who will use it. We really need to get as many people as we can out of their cars as often as possible.

There are targets for reducing vehicle kilometres, a 50% reduction in fossil fuel usage and accelerating the fleet transition but the point the Minister made about electric cars is correct. The streets will be full of quieter, less emitting, less noisy and less hot vehicles but they are still going to be full of electric cars. Bicycles are a huge advantage, particularly in urban areas. I do not expect people to be cycling long distances such as the length of the M50, even though I do know some people who do it, or cycling from Blanchardstown to Bray or something. However, there are an awful lot of journeys that people can do but they just do not have the mindset. I did not cycle for 20 years but I started doing it ten years ago when I was on the local authority. Now I use the bike more often than I use my car, which sits in the driveway a lot of the time doing very little.

The Minister made a point about not scrapping cars. My car is relatively old. It passes its NCT every year but there would be a cost to me not being able to use a petrol car. I would have to get a new car and all the energy involved in that is probably counterproductive if it is going to sit in my driveway 98% or 99% of the time.

It is really about how we affect people's mindset. The public transport stuff - the 90-minute fare and the €2 fare - is great. We need to accelerate credit card usage because not everybody has a Leap card and people should be able to tap on with their phone or credit card without a Leap card as people can do in London, Sydney and other cities. I am thinking in particular of people who do not use public transport that much. Such people may not have a Leap card or may not consider getting one. How do we achieve the modal shift the Minister is looking for? We can build all the cycle lanes we want but how do we get people out of their cars and how do we get young people, in particular, out of their parents' cars so they are not driven everywhere? It would be positive for their own independence if we had safe streets and better planning systems so that houses are closer to schools or people's workplaces. That is my ask.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Regarding how we get people cycling, first and foremost, we must make it safe. What is stopping people at the moment is a sense of hazard, which is understandable. I presume the Leas-Chathaoirleach comes in along Clonskeagh Road. He will see there-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is actually more hazardous at the moment because there are signs everywhere but I get the Minister's point. It is a work in progress.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The new infrastructure there is a quantum leap and that needs to extend right the way into town and it can. The council is examining many interim solutions. All the money does not necessarily have to be spent on civil works. What Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council showed is how cycling infrastructure can be created without necessarily having huge interventions. That is what we need to do.

I mentioned brave political decisions. There was a public meeting in my neck of the woods on the issue last night. Beaver Row is currently two-way but is completely dysfunctional. It is very narrow, is not safe and does not work for anyone really. The plan there, which I am confident will be delivered in the very near future, will make it one-way, create a two-way cycle lane and make it really safe for everyone on any school near that route. This will transform people's choices. It is about allocation of spaces.

In response to the Leas-Chathaoirleach's first question, there is a very mixed pattern at the moment. The Stillorgan sites have been derelict for decades and they are starting to be built on. Cherrywood is not a great example of speed because it has been so long in coming but we are starting to see the investment we made in the Luas matched by housing developments in the area and people have public transport infrastructure in place before the apartments are built. These are the positive signs.

The Leas-Chathaoirleach is right in that a lot of new housing is in counties surrounding Dublin with the ongoing doughnut effect of ever-outward development. Those towns, areas and counties can and will have a really important role but we must be careful not to hollow out our cities and see all the growth in an ever-extending outward area. One of the mechanisms to address this is, again, set out by the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage in Project Tosaigh. This involves plans involving significant State investment in the national planning framework objectives of better balanced regional development, compact development and low-carbon development. One of the major initiatives we need to undertake in the next year is invest in many of those housing projects that have not become viable because of high interest rates and for the State to intervene to make sure we do build them because that would be of significant benefit in building back into the centre of our towns and cities.

Some of the other measures such as Croí Conaithe are starting to really work. That can be seen it in towns around the country where vacant and derelict properties are starting to be redeveloped. People are picking up on this. It is starting to happen. It is not all negative.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not trying to be negative. I am being positive about a lot of the stuff. A place like Dún Laoghaire has so many buildings that are not being used in the way they should be able to be used. They do not all have to become shops again. Some of them could be residential properties Quite often, there is empty space above the shops. This applies not just to Dún Laoghaire but to towns all over Ireland, both urban and more rural.

Regarding road pricing as a concept, I appreciate we had the toll on the M50 at one particular point and I am not in favour of pricing the M50 exclusively because it just shifts a lot of traffic off the M50 on to other roads but would there be merit in considering it when public transport is much better and when there are alternatives? For example, if driving on a rural road in Connemara at 8.30 p.m. on a Tuesday evening, a motorist pays a certain price but if he or she wants to travel on the N11 at 8.30 a.m. on Monday, he or she pays a significantly higher price because there are alternatives. At the moment, motorists pay road tax regardless of whether they drive 1 km or 100,000 km per year. It is almost a case of having paid road tax and insurance, they have met all the fixed outlay and the marginal cost is just the fuel, which is more expensive than before. Is there merit in a road pricing model? It could be a very low rate but there is an incentive to not use the car, perhaps through satellite technology. I would like it to be a revenue-neutral kind of thing where road tax would be scrapped in order that people do not have to pay road tax just for owning a car but every time they use the car, there is a charge so if they were an average user, they would not pay much more than their road tax while if they use their car a lot, they would pay more. Again, it would be priced on a rural versus urban model so the charge would be lower where there are no alternatives to using a car while if there were lots of alternatives at peak times, they would pay more to use that road. Is this being considered in trying to bring about the modal shift? If every time they use their car, it is costing them money, maybe they will jump on a bus if it is there as opposed to now where there is no real penalty for using the M50 at 4.30 p.m. on Friday vis-à-visusing it three hours later or three hours earlier.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree with the Leas-Chathaoirleach about the concept. I can see the logic where if someone is travelling between Bangor Erris and Belmullet on a Wednesday afternoon, that should be priced differently from a motorists travelling between Blackrock and Ballsbridge on a Tuesday at 8 a.m. TII is working on Project BRUCE, Better Road User Charging Evaluation, and expects to report by the end of the year. The project involves examining a range of different issues. There is an issue in terms of what happens as we switch to all-electric vehicles. What other revenues can be generated to replace the revenues that will be lost and the reduced excise duties? That analysis and strategic thinking need to be done. I do not believe that will be centre stage in the lifetime of this Government or in the near future because we have to provide better alternatives and we must be quick. If we relied on pricing to deliver some of the climate change reductions, the modelling showed a massive increase in pricing to deliver our climate objectives and that would not be politically acceptable or socially just. There is a real role for reviewing and changing the way we price the externalities in transport but the first key decision is investing in public transport, walking and cycling alternatives and re-allocating road space to make sure our buses run really quickly. In time, some of those alternative and more strategic long-term changes can be delivered.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not think any of us mentioned 24-hour buses. We need far more of them. I know it is difficult to find drivers but there are routes in Dublin that are 24-hour and they are very beneficial in terms of people being able to work, particularly young people working in the night-time economy not having to spend huge amounts of their hard-earned income on taxis home. The Minister is as close to the Luas as I am - possibly closer. It sucks in people. It is about the reliability and the frequency. Nobody worries about the Luas timetable. They just walk to the Luas and know that it will be there within three, four, five or six minutes regardless of the time of day. We need to have consistent and reliable buses. We talked about ghost buses here previously - buses appearing and disappearing on screens. This may have improved somewhat. I always found the Dublin Bus app to be the best of the three apps and it is the one being scrapped next week so I hope the TFI app, which I have not used very much, will be all right. It is more about reliability. If I have to get to work or an appointment, I know the bus will turn up because it always turns up and gets me there at a certain time, I will use the bus but if I am not sure whether it is going to turn up, I know I have to be somewhere and it is very important that I get there, I will probably use the car because albeit with congestion, I will go early and will allow extra time.

We need to have better and more frequent services. Like the Luas, this will draw people in. I do not mind walking for ten minutes to the Luas stop because I know it is a reliable service. On the other hand, my bus, the number 11, operates on very congested roads and goes through narrow city streets. It is not the fault of Dublin Bus but journey time reliability is very unpredictable. What might take ten minutes one day can take 20 minutes the next day. The route journey time could be an hour and a half as opposed to one hour or 45 minutes, depending on levels of congestion. This is the reason many people still decide to use their cars. They know that if they have to be stuck in traffic all day, at least they are stuck in the comfort of their own car listening to their own choice of radio station.

There is still much more to be done. However, I also acknowledge that much good work has been done already. For example, I remember when the idea of the Stillorgan quality bus corridor, QBC, was being considered in 1999. The idea of taking road space from cars was viewed with incredulity. People simply did not believe it would or could happen. Now people are using that same service and are delighted to be doing so. There is a role for QBCs and there is still a role for parts of the eastern bypass as a transport link. Incentivising people, particularly those in schools, to start using their bikes as much as possible would hugely reduce congestion around schools. We see the difference between when schools are on and off. The amount of traffic generated by schools is considerable.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I fully agree. School traffic currently comprises about 30% of morning rush-hour traffic. If we can reduce that figure, it will have a profound impact. We are looking at costing what is the increased level of public service offering, PSO, that would be needed to give that ultra-high frequency services so that people see it in the same way as the Luas.

I also agree about the benefits of night-time services when we are seeking to develop the social night-time economy of towns and cities around the country. Sligo and Waterford now have early morning services to enable people to get into town in time for morning business meetings.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A bus with 20 passengers on board produces far less emissions than 20 taxis does.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister talked about investment and how we need to be doing a lot of these things now rather than later. That is the consensus on the challenges that lie ahead. The Department of Finance published a document last week, titled Future Proofing Public Finances. I read it and much of what is mentioned is about putting things on the long finger. This even includes issues to do with climate change. The document does not speak about investing to ensure there is a proper service from Dublin Airport into the city centre. Nor does it speak about putting in the investment to bring a rail link to Navan, developing the western rail corridor or expanding rail freight. It does not seem to address any of those measures that we all agree are needed quickly. The whole focus of the document is on medium- to long-term investments. The tenor of the document is that the future might be very bad so we need to save all the money we can. I think the future will be very bad unless the investment is made now. I would like to get the Minister's views on this because the thrust of the document is in sharp contrast to the communications I have had with the his Department and others.

Deputy Leddin raised the issue of larger electric vehicles as opposed to smaller ones. People in rural areas favour larger vehicles because they have greater distances to travel and therefore require a larger battery with more range. At present, many people in rural areas still find the range of electric vehicles an issue. Allied to this is the issue of charging the vehicles. Significant investment must be made in the charging station network as quickly as possible. I do not see any sense of urgency on this.

I have spoken to many people in rural areas about this issue and many of them have told me that if they had an electric car for day-to-day use, they would use public transport to go to the cities or on longer journeys. However, public transport is not available in many areas to make this possible. We do not have a good, uncrowded train service or the frequency of trains we need. It comes back to my initial point, that while the Minister seems to be committed to investing in these areas now, I am not sure the Government is.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The primary purpose of the document from the viewpoint of the Department of Finance was to raise the question about whether we should establish a sovereign fund. It largely made the case for doing so. In passing, the document makes reference to the fact that we have significant demographic pressures as well as a requirement to invest in climate and digital. However, that was not the sole focus of the document so I would not read it as the be-all and end-all of what we are going to do. I do agree with the broad strategy of establishing a sovereign fund to manage some of the excess windfall gains we are getting from corporation tax at the moment.

There will be other plans and other occasions where we can look at some of the more strategic transport investments. The strategic rail review is due out soon. It depends on what happens in Stormont but we know it will have to go to a strategic environmental assessment this summer, so we will be able to share it on that basis. That will bring to the fore questions of long-term structural investment decisions about rail freight and the development of rail infrastructure. However, we are not just waiting for that review. There is significant investment under way.

I accept what was said earlier about the delays in the planning system. That being said, we have a huge number of projects now ready to go, including BusConnects, MetroLink, DART+ and the Cork metropolitan rail network. I could keep going. As soon as these projects come out of the planning system, we will start building and spending. We are not sitting idle. We have made significant investments in new inter-city rail carriages, ICR, which will go into service next year. We have also invested massively in new battery electric trains. These will go into service in the next few years. The overcrowding issue on the Sligo train that was mentioned will be significantly reduced by the additional rail capacity.

I agree with the Deputy that we will have to increase our capital expenditure. The Department received a €35 billion allocation from the NDP. This was the largest allocation so it is not as if we do not have capital resources. We also have the projects' detailed business cases. Even though we have a drawn-out public procurement process, we have projects ready to go and as soon as they start coming out of the planning process, we will start building.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is simply not true because there is a project in Mallow, the relief road, which is ready to go tomorrow and the Department will not allocate the funding. I ask the Minister to please refrain from making claims that he cannot stand over. As in Mallow, the same situation applies in Castlemartyr and the road I was promised there. I have been waiting for about four months for someone in the Department to just sign off on the appointment of the design consultant. It is simply a signature on a sheet of paper but it is impossible to obtain.

I accept that the N25 Midleton to Cork is controversial but it could start tomorrow with a sign-off from the Department. I could continue by mentioning projects in Tipperary, south Kilkenny and Carlow where there is no movement. This all comes back to the Department of Transport and, ultimately, to the Minister's desk. Why is this happening?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We can go very local and refer to a project that we have talked about a lot, the Castlemartyr bypass. There is no intention whatsoever from my side or that of the Department to restrict that. I will go back and see why the design consultant's report is not proceeding. We have a wide variety of projects in the roads programme, many of which have been built. The reality is that with the allocation of two to one in favour of public transport over roads, not all road programmes are going to be built at one time. They are still in the NDP and are still very much part of the planning process.

What I have said, which is correct and which supports projects like Castlemartyr, is that we should prioritise bypasses. To go back to what I was saying earlier about reviving our towns, we cannot do that if we have trucks trundling through the centre of a 19th century market town or village. That is what we are focusing on. The Deputy mentioned a number of projects in Tipperary and elsewhere and it is my intention to progress them as quickly as possible to free towns-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With all due respect, it is piecemeal. When we, as backbenchers, go to the Minister or his Department to ask where our road project is, we are told there is no money. How in God's name can the Minister stand over that when we are running a €17 billion surplus?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have budgeted €491 million this year for national roads and-----

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not enough.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----€626 million for local roads.

James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is just not enough. The Dunkettle project alone will cost over €200 million. Can I say something else about road projects? People do not like to talk about successes in Irish public policy but road construction has been one of the real leaders when it comes to delivering projects on time and under budget. It happened on the Baile Bhairne to Macroom project and on the Dunkettle project as well. Both projects are way ahead of schedule, as the Minister knows, which is great.

Can we not just throw caution to the wind and get them built? There are several projects that would make a transformative difference to rural Ireland that could be done without adding to our carbon emissions. The project in Castlemartyr, for example, will take 21,000 vehicles a day out of a village and residential area. A lot of that is commercial, heavy-goods traffic for which there is no alternative. That traffic is not going to turn into buses. Effectively, those projects could commence immediately if there was a bit of urgency shown by the Department.

As I said to the Minister, I know this project inside out. I know that he knows that so I cannot accept the bluff. What I will say is that the amount of bureaucracy involved is incredible. The Minister is a Green Party Minister and has been one of the leading voices on climate change in Ireland for decades. I commend him for that and he should be shown a degree of respect for it but we cannot even get a train line built here.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree and going back to the discussion we had earlier, we need to be quicker, both through our public procurement process and our planning process. Everything I am doing is directed at trying to speed that up.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask the Minister to elaborate on the introduction of E10 fuels and the handling of that. There are reports in the media this morning of concern in various quarters regarding the implications of its introduction as well as the communications around it. It is important that people would be aware and would content themselves that it is a change that is coming and what it will mean for themvis-à-vis their vehicles or other equipment like lawn mowers, strimmers and so on.

On a related point, I am interested in the wider role of biofuels and alternative fuels for hard-to-electrify transport, particularly heavy-goods transport. What supports will be in place in that context? How does the Minister see the transition there?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

First, the introduction of E10 will take place on 1 July this year but it does not necessarily mean the biofuel content will be 10%. I think it has to be over 5.5% and because it is a competitive market and different suppliers have different arrangements, they will decide how they will use the ethanol. Similarly, we have the B7 on the diesel side.

On the broader issue of hyrdotreated vegetable oil, HVO, and the role of biofuels, while it will have a role, it will be limited because it is a scarce resource globally. A lot of HVO comes from used cooking oil but there is a limited quantity of it globally so we have to be careful about seeing that as the solution to every single problem, be it in heating or transport.

Regarding advice for vehicle owners, E10 is an issue for much older vehicles. The AA has provided a good service in this area. It has provided a lot of detail this week on how to manage with the new E10 fuel, its characteristics in the context of maintaining and looking after one's vehicle and so on.

That switch and the setting of standards for biofuels within our fuel mix will deliver just over 1.08 million tonnes of emissions reductions, so it a very significant part of our emissions reductions efforts in transport. However, that is pretty much the limit of it. Technically and technologically, we will not be able to go beyond that level of abatement. That said, we do need that transition to meet our overall target.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am conscious of the Minister's time but have a question on children and younger people being facilitated with a trial bike scheme. I am not saying that everybody has an issue with costs but some people might not be willing to go off and buy a bike if it is only going to be used for the occasional trip. A lot of people have bikes anyway but if people wanted to get a bike, could we have a facility whereby they could try it for a period? Maybe there could be a tracker on it and we could see that it is being used three or four times a week to go to and from school, and so on. Is there a difficulty with that kind of thing? I know that everyone in Ennis was given a computer a number of years ago. I am not sure they all got used but the idea was to promote Internet use at the early stages.

A lot of parents are probably scared of letting children out on roads and, as the Minister said, the safety element is very important. A lot of money has been spent on safe routes to school, harnessing residential estates and quieter roads and working out ways of getting places without using the busiest roads. What is needed now is an incentive for people to get out of the car and start using the bike. If they did so, a lot of them would not go back to the car. It might be fine to be sitting in a car but there is no reliability in journey time in urban Ireland, especially at going-to-school time. A lot of school children, if they knew they could get up ten or 15 minutes later because they are using a bike, would realise it is a win-win for everybody. Their parents might be delighted not to have to drive them everywhere as well.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a scheme called the bike library. It is focusing on parents who might like to use the likes of a cargo bike to bring their children to school and so on. That has proven to be hugely popular and has just been expanded. The Deputy's idea is a good one and it has already started. I will check if there are any international examples, or perhaps the Cathaoirleach could provide me with some examples-----

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not know of any examples. It is not something that I saw elsewhere. I just think that some people, before they go off and spend €300 or €400 on a bike, would like to try it out. When they actually try it a lot of them will realise that it is fine, that it gets them from A to B more quickly than the car and that it does not rain as much here as we think it does. Children would get the independence of not having to worry if their parents are late picking them up or dropping them off and so on. When I was in school, a lot more students cycled than do now. If we could get more bikes in circulation and encourage a culture of people using bikes and feeling comfortable doing so, it would help enormously. I was in the Hague just before Covid and I hardly saw any cars at all but we were shown photographs of the city in the 1970s and the 1980s and it was full of cars.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree. There is no reason not to go in the same direction. As I said earlier, it creates a requirement for safe spaces. We can look at all options, in terms of trials or other mechanisms, but we are well placed to make that leap. The target in the plan, which is for a 50% increase in active travel, will, in hindsight and in history, be seen as under-ambitious. Once we start to get the numbers going in this direction, it becomes a virtuous circle where everyone feels it is safer and more the norm.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

People in offices will start to tell each other that their commuting time is shorter now than it ever was.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. I heard a public health doctor from DCU on the radio this morning make the point that this is transformative in terms of improving people's health. People arrive fresh, energised, attentive, exercised and healthier. Once people start to have that experience and realise that this is a better way of getting around, it will spread virally. That is what we need to do.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not even touch on the health benefits. Obviously, there are health benefits but the reliability of journey time for bikes compared to cars in an urban setting is invaluable. Certainly in rural areas, if the roads are quiet, I can see why people would use their car, particularly as the distances are much longer, but in an urban setting people are never going to move faster in a car than on a bike.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree.

Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister and all of this officials for being here today. We had a very useful conversation. I now propose that we take a small break to allow our current witness to leave and our next witnesses to join us.