Dr. Kenneth McDonagh:

On the issue of defence spending, 2% is an arbitrary figure but it is a useful way to compare what we are doing. The Deputy is right to focus on where we get good value for our investment. That is why I go back to encouraging the exploration of the potential of PESCO to deliver that good value rather than reinventing the wheel or going through more complicated supply chains.

As regards the different strata of opinion on CSDP within Europe, which ties in with the Cathaoirleach's question on the influence of Brexit, that has now been compounded by Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Ireland, Malta, Austria and Cyprus are now, for different reasons, the countries in the European tent that are outside the NATO tent. The space that was created by larger states disagreeing has shrunk considerably. That does not mean we need to change our approach but it probably means we need to be more politically aware of how our approach is viewed by others and that it will not be entirely costless not to be seen to support our Baltic friends, for example, or Poland and so on. We need to be aware of a different political landscape when it come to CSDP. That relates to initiatives around improving the capacity for Europe to act but, because of the large overlap with NATO, it really does not matter which hat these countries are wearing, as Sven Biscop, who is an expert in this area, often points out,. An improvement in capabilities for a member state of the European Union or NATO is, in a sense, an improvement in the capabilities of both. It is not a zero sum game because of that overlap, so that tension is not a deal-breaker for some countries. That said, NATO is currently seen as the primary game in town.

That brings me to the question on the influence of things such as the Iraq war and the view from the global south. The Deputy is correct to highlight that there is a risk of alignment between an Atlanticist view of European security and how that is viewed externally. It is interesting to look at the UN votes on the conflict. There is greater support in the global south for pointing out the clear violation of international law but the counties in question will not follow on from that by supporting sanctions or punishment for that violation. That is largely because they believe Russia is doing in Ukraine what the US did in Iraq or what western countries have done in other parts of the world. There is no easy way of overcoming that cynicism, other than demonstrating by practice that we are not being selective. One of the challenges we have as a continent and as a country is our treatment of refugees in this context. The globe is watching us as we rightly provide sanctuary to Ukrainians coming to Ireland but treat Syrians, Afghans or other people fleeing equally horrific conflicts in a very different manner. That difference will be seen as putting us in one camp or the other. That may be a challenge for Ireland. We recently stepped down from a reasonably successful period on the UN Security Council, on which we were a voice for international rights and shedding light on matters beyond western concerns, but the external perspective of that may not be as clear as we believe it to be. We are very aware of our military non-alignment and unique stance on certain issues of international peace and security but that is not necessarily seen elsewhere. We are seen, perhaps, as another reasonably wealthy member of the European Union. The important distinctions and lines we draw are not necessarily recognised outside in that way. An appropriate way of dealing with that might be to advance a UN role in peacekeeping but the obvious mechanisms for Ireland to perform that role in a greater way are within the mechanisms in which we are already engaged, that is, through CSDP. We should be looking on the civilian side as much as on the military side and ensuring we get Irish people into those roles and out in the field to represent us as a country that supports international peace, security and law and is not afraid to criticise our friends as well as our foes when they overstep the mark on these issues.