Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 8 March 2023
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport
Motor Insurance and Uninsured Drivers: Motor Insurers' Bureau of Ireland
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The purpose of today’s meeting is for the joint committee to continue to discuss motor insurance with particular reference to uninsured drivers and road safety. We are joined by Mr. David Fitzgerald and Mr. Tom O’Brien from the Motor Insurers’ Bureau of Ireland. I am pleased to welcome them here.
I will read a note on privilege for both our witnesses and members. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue such remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member partaking via MS Teams to confirm, prior to making their contribution to the meeting, that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus. If attending in the committee room, they are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.
I invite Mr. Fitzgerald to make his opening statement on behalf of the Motor Insurers’ Bureau of Ireland.
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
On behalf of the Motor Insurers’ Bureau of Ireland, MIBI, I would like to express our thanks for the opportunity to discuss the issue of uninsured driving today. The MIBI is very grateful to all the members of the committee for the support they have shown on this matter, now and during our past interactions, especially on the progress of the Road Traffic and Roads Bill 2021.
As the committee will be aware, the MIBI is a not-for-profit organisation that was established to compensate victims of road traffic accidents caused by uninsured and unidentified vehicles. We were formed in 1955 following an agreement between the Government and companies underwriting motor insurance in Ireland. We are proud of our role in looking after the innocent victims of uninsured and hit-and-run drivers. It may interest the committee to know that the MIBI has paid out more than €2 billion in compensation since we were established. That is a lot of money which the committee members and I and all other law-abiding motorists have to shoulder.
We also act as the green card bureau and EU compensation body for Ireland, which ensures persons who sustain damage and-or injuries in a road traffic accident caused by a vehicle registered outside the State are not disadvantaged. The internal regulations of COB, formerly known as the Council of Bureaux, in Brussels governs the investigation and settlement of such claims. We also administer the motor insurers insolvency compensation fund. All companies underwriting motor insurance in Ireland must be members of the MIBI. They provide the funding the MIBI uses to compensate the victims of uninsured or untraced road traffic accidents.
Given the responsibilities of our organisation, one of the issues of greatest concern to the MIBI is the level of uninsured driving in Ireland. Over recent years, thanks to the incisive work led by my colleague Mr. Tom O’Brien, we have conducted an analysis of the number of uninsured private vehicles on Irish roads. This analysis involves comparing the number of private motor vehicle owners paying motor tax with the number of vehicles that have active insurance policies. The latest analysis does not make pleasant reading. It shows that there are now almost 188,000 uninsured private vehicles on Irish roads. That means one in every 12 vehicles is breaking the law and driving without insurance. To put those numbers in context, over the past two years the number of uninsured vehicles has grown by more than 32,000, there was an increase of more than 13,000 vehicles in the past 12 months alone, and if the current trends continue, the level of uninsured private vehicles is likely to pass the 200,000 mark in the next 12 to 18 months.
It should be remembered that every single time a person drives a vehicle without insurance on Irish roads, they are breaking the law. The penalties for driving without insurance include An Garda Síochána having the power to seize the vehicle on the spot as well as other significant penalties, such as an automatic court appearance, five penalty points and a substantial fine. Particularly egregious cases can result in up to six months' imprisonment.
The figures shown by our analysis are concerning in their own right. When they are contrasted with figures from other countries across Europe, it emphasises just how much of an outlier Ireland has become concerning uninsured driving. The MIBI was able to source data from our colleagues in the COB, the international organisation active in the motor insurance sector and acting for the protection of cross-border road traffic victims. These data allowed us to undertake a comparative analysis on the level of uninsured driving across the European Economic Area, EEA, as well as the UK and Switzerland. The latest available data are based on the 2021 figures. Unfortunately, we do not anticipate the 2022 data for Europe being available until September or October of this year. In 2021, Ireland had the second-worst level of uninsured private vehicles across the European Economic Area, UK and Switzerland, with 7.8% of our vehicles being uninsured. This was only just behind Greece which had 8.2%.
While the 2022 figures are not available for other countries yet, given that the number of uninsured private vehicles in Ireland reached 8.3% last year, we may now be the worst in the EU. This should be eye-opening for everyone concerned about the rule of law and road safety in this country. We should all be taking notice of those data and the worrying trend they highlight. As the map we have included with our submission reflecting the 2021 data highlights, we were far worse than most of the other countries analysed. While 7.8% of the private vehicles in Ireland were uninsured, in the UK it was at 2.5%, France 2%, Croatia 1.4%, Iceland and Sweden 0.7%, Poland 0.3%, while Germany and Finland had effectively no uninsured vehicles. Of the 29 countries across the EEA as well as the UK and Switzerland, where data were available, the average level of uninsured vehicles was 1.8%. Ireland’s figure was 4.3 times the average. The full table of the individual countries is included in our submission to the committee in index 1.
Despite what some people might suggest, driving without insurance is not a victimless crime. It makes our roads less safe and more dangerous. Every year the MIBI pays out in the region of €70 million in compensation to victims of accidents caused by uninsured drivers. In 2021, the average cost of each claim paid to the victim of an uninsured driver came to €78,736. We are a not-for-profit, so the funding for that compensation is gathered from all the companies that provide motor insurance in Ireland. Practically, that means the law-abiding motorists are subsidising uninsured drivers to the tune of approximately €30 to €35 every time they renew their motor insurance policies. That number will increase if the level of uninsured driving continues to grow.
If we want to avoid that situation arising, to prevent the number of uninsured vehicles passing the 200,000 mark in the near future, there is a solution at hand. We need to see the full enactment and implementation of the Road Traffic and Roads Bill. The Bill will permit the sharing of all the insurance data that are available in the Irish motor insurance database, IMID, with An Garda Síochána. That will enable the full implementation of elements of the Garda's automatic number plate recognition, ANPR, system aimed at tackling uninsured driving and allowing it to become fully compatible with the IMID. It will allow suspected uninsured vehicles to be simply and quickly identified without having even to be stopped and pulled over. Gardaí can check vehicles on the road without even leaving their cars. They can also use their mobility devices to check quickly the insurance status of vehicles and drivers, thus speeding up the validation process in front-line operations.
While there is a limited system currently in place, it will not have the full scope of the data until the data-sharing provisions are enabled in law.
As the Deputies and Senators will be aware, the relevant legislation – the Road Traffic and Roads Bill 2021 – is still before the Oireachtas. We would urge the committee to use any influence it can bring to bear to help to get that Bill enacted before the next recess, avoiding any further delays.
Once the Bill is enacted, it will simply become a matter of enforcement. The Garda has previously shared that the limited system was identifying an average of 128 uninsured vehicles per day. If you extrapolate those figures out to a full year, that comes to 46,720 uninsured vehicles being identified with the limited data. When you consider those numbers, imagine what impact the fully enabled system may have.
We, once again, thank the committee for its time and we would be delighted to answer any questions it may have.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Fitzgerald for his comprehensive opening statement. I will give everybody ten minutes, and then an additional two. The first contributor is Deputy O'Rourke.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chair and thank the witnesses for their presentation. Mr. Fitzgerald outlined well the provisions of the Road Traffic and Roads Bill 2021. It is within the gift of the Government to move forward with the Bill by scheduling it. I would encourage the Government to do just that. It needs to be a recommendation from the committee that this is one element and it is well overdue at this stage. Can Mr. Fitzgerald outline in practical terms what that would mean to address this situation? Would you then have databases that exist talking to each other in real time?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
Exactly. We established the private motor database in 2019. Since mid-2020, we have had the full data from the insurance industry, including details of the vehicle, the insurer, the dates of the insurance, the driver and the date of birth. It is the type of information that the Garda needs for enforcement. However, we have been advised by the Data Protection Commissioner that we need a safe legal basis to be able to pass that, in line with General Data Protection Regulation, GDPR, regulations, and that is contained within this Bill. We have it ready to go. The Garda wants it. We are looking for that Bill to pass so that we have the safe legal basis to pass it across to the Garda and aid it in enforcement.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Will the gardaí have real-time access to that at the side of the road?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
They will, exactly. That database is updated every night by insurers and their brokers. They will have two feeds. The first is a suspected list of uninsured drivers that we derive using our data. That will aid them, say, where a vehicle looks like an uninsured vehicle. They will also have a comprehensive insurance database where, if they are at the side of the road and they want to interrogate that driver or investigate a suspected uninsured driving case, they will be able to see all of the details about when the driver came on and off insurance, what drivers are insured for the car and the category of insurance. It will include all the detail that the Garda needs for enforcement, not only whether the vehicle is insured but also whether the driver is insured to drive that vehicle and that type of vehicle.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I am trying to think this through. In terms of what is happening at present - we might talk some more about Mr. Fitzgerald's analysis here - there are significant numbers of uninsured drivers but a level of detection that is not consistent with that. What is happening at the side of the road at present? Do people have fake papers or what is on their insurance disk?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
That can be a feature. With advances in technology, it can be easy or easier than it used to be for people to have a fake insurance disk or come up with a convincing story for the garda at the side of the road whereas, if we can get this data with all the details, if you have the same name as your father, they could separate you, They would have the detail they need to say that you are insured to drive or you are not.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Do we know if there is information in relation to that? If I am stopped at a checkpoint, they will check my licence and look for my NCT, my tax and my insurance disk. Do we have information about how many checkpoints are happening and how many people are being caught at them?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
I am afraid we do not. That is something we would be very interested in. It is something we have asked the Garda for previously but we have not been successful in obtaining that information to date. You see them out and about. I am sure they are active but we do not have those statistics. If we can get them this technology, this would be a great enabler. We see it as an issue for enforcement. If the levels are this high, do we need more enforcement? People must feel they can get away with it if we have this level of uninsured driving. What we can do to empower the Garda to increase enforcement is in everybody's interest.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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It is probably safe to say that if it is the case that people are driving uninsured, that is one thing, but if they are driving uninsured with fraudulent papers or insurance disks that is a separate issue as well in terms of fraud.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to drill down into the research that Mr. Fitzgerald has done in relation to this. Is there any reasonable reason that might be missing? Might it be the case that the figures are overestimated based on cars being laid up off the road? I ask Mr. Fitzgerald to talk to me about the analysis on it.
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
We do not believe so because we have added a control to those figures. If anything, they might be underestimated. What we have done is this. We have our insurance database of all the insured vehicles and we have compared that to the taxed vehicles. The Department of Transport, in Shannon, has assisted us in providing a list of all the taxed vehicles. That eliminates those vehicles that may be genuinely laid up, for example, that might be sitting in a garage or put off the road. That is a good control. What it will not detect, which is why I say the figures could even be underestimated, is if somebody is driving around without tax and insurance as that will not appear in the 188,000 private motorists driving around without insurance.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Are there groups of vehicles, whether they be leased vehicles or others? I am thinking of lots of leasing companies that might have had vehicles on which the tax is running out in eight months' time but the insurance is running out in a month's time and they do not renew the insurance. Is that a potential anomaly?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
It is certainly possible but I do not think it would be statistically significant. Deputy O'Rourke will see in the notes how the uninsured driving figures are building up over a five-year period. They are all calculated on the same basis. If we are out a few hundred vehicles, the consistent growth is what is alarming us because they are all prepared on the same basis.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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We are an outlier based on-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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A massive outlier, yes.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Do we know what the driver of that is and why that might be the case? For example, are high insurance costs driving this? Is it a level of enforcement? Is it a regime? Is the regime that we are calling for in the Road Traffic and Roads Bill 2021 in place in all these other European countries? What is the suite of measures that might contribute to this?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
There are a few things. I would 100% agree with the statement around enforcement. We need more enforcement in this jurisdiction and that is one of the things for the Bill. If we look across to our nearest neighbour, the UK, it has had a similar system in place, involving similar technology with a similar motor database, for more than ten years. The UK would have started out with an uninsured driving level of 6.5%, and they have that down now. It did not happen overnight, but they have got it down to 2.5% now through a combination of a similar system plus a slightly different insurance regime, which probably is worth looking at. In Ireland, the gardaí have to catch the uninsured driver in the act whereas in the UK, it is an offence to own a vehicle without insurance unless it is laid off the road in a formal way where there is a statutory off-the-road declaration. That enables the UK Department of Transport to reach out to the suspected uninsured drivers to issue them a warning letter and ultimately fine them if they choose to own a vehicle without obtaining insurance. That would be something interesting that they have in the UK that could be successful potentially in this jurisdiction as well.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Is it a provision of the Road Traffic and Roads Bill 2021?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I refer to insurance costs here.
I know lots of people who drive in the North, for example, and one of the things they immediately point to is the cost of putting a vehicle on the road and insurance taxes.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Fitzgerald know how great insurances costs are here in comparison with those in other countries?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine but it would be worth thinking about. Even in our own hearings, we should investigate what is leaving us in a position where huge numbers appear to be driving uninsured.
As for the policy response, Mr. Fitzgerald pointed clearly towards the Road Traffic and Roads Bill 2021, which we need to see passed, and in that regard towards a potential option of looking at not just driving uninsured but also owning a vehicle. Does anything else need to happen in response to MIBI's findings?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
We could combine them with enforcement. Clearly, people feel as though they are not going to be caught. One in 12 drivers is driving around uninsured, which is stood up by the €70 million we are paying out in compensation. If we could combine the approach with more enforcement, we could be in a much healthier position in the years to come.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I presume the range of accidents for which MIBI compensates people includes virtually everything.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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There are fatalities as well, I presume.
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
We have fatalities as well and there have been some tragic cases, with the victims' dependants left behind. We are proud to be able to help them and we take a lot of meaning from that. We will do anything we can to reduce uninsured driving. We see a higher risk profile from the type of people who are prepared to risk driving uninsured than the insurance industry sees, so we see, say, unroadworthy vehicles, people willing to speed more than the average motorist and issues with alcohol and drugs. We see some nasty crashes.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Did Mr. Fitzgerald give us a figure on the numbers of compensation payments made year on year?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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What was the number of claims?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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If we divide €70 million by €78,000, that will give the average.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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If the average is €78,000 and the total figure is €70 million, dividing one figure into the other should give us the number of incidents.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I wish our colleague Deputy Carey a full and speedy recovery.
I thank Mr. Fitzgerald and Mr. O'Brien for attending. We have had a number of private session meetings as a committee and I have requested they appear before us at some point because I have a number of specific questions that do not necessarily relate to their opening statement. With regard to NCT tests, there is four-month delay in some parts of the country at the moment, with cars driving on every road of the country without valid NCT tests, and at least some of them defective as they drive on the road. How does that reconcile with MIBI's industry having them insured and fully covered in case of an accident?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
I am afraid that is not really a question for my remit but rather for Insurance Ireland. My understanding, from its public statements and just from following media reports, is that insurers are continuing to insure cars while they are awaiting NCTs, but that is the extent of my knowledge. We are focused on compensating victims of uninsured driving and trying to reduce uninsured driving.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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This was all made clear during the Covid pandemic, when it was explicitly stated that there was continued cover and that was very clear but it is less clear now for motorists and for An Garda Síochána in respect of enforcement. Does MIBI have a view on L-plate drivers? It is a similar and related question. In some parts of the country, including west Clare in my constituency, there is a waiting period of 29 weeks from when a test is applied for. At that point, the applicant will have had a minimum of 12 lessons to get to the point of being tested, while a skilled and qualified driving instructor will have deemed the applicant as ready to be tested, yet he or she could spend 29 weeks or more waiting. The problem in counties such as Clare is that parents will have seen their youngster go off to college and the lack of accommodation available to them, or this could also apply to somebody taking up employment. If a car is bought for them, that is their way of getting from rural Ireland to their place of education or work, yet they have to be accompanied by a qualified driver. Does Mr. Fitzgerald have views on that? In a raft of counties, there is not a great public transport system and youngsters, as well as those who are not so young, drive without an accompanying driver.
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
On a personal level, of course, I have great sympathy for those young people, but I am afraid that is not in our remit. It is probably a question for the Department of Transport and the body that runs the test centres under its remit. Of course, I have sympathy for these people but it is not really my area of expertise.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Fitzgerald mentioned the uninsured and the figures were stark. I was not expecting, and I do not think many of us were expecting, Ireland to be-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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-----worst in the league table of the uninsured. It is everyone’s worst nightmare to be involved in a road traffic accident and it is worse again when the vehicle being interfaced with is uninsured, with the rigours involved to try to get some form of compensation. Nevertheless, we interface with other uninsured vehicles as we drive through traffic, such as e-scooters and e-bikes, many of which travel far faster than the cars, vans and trucks on the road. What is Mr. Fitzgerald's opinion on that? Is it a difficulty at the moment for insurance cases where a car is fully loaded with insurance but other vehicles and non-vehicles are uninsured?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
Yes, it is an issue. At the moment, these vehicles drive around without insurance. While it is done on a case-by-case basis, the general principle is that MIBI would pick up claims from e-bikes if they were liable. That is going to be addressed in the upcoming motor insurance directive and the Bill we have been discussing. The intention of the Government is to deregulate e-bikes and e-scooters below certain speed and weight thresholds. It is the view of the Government that they should be put on a similar footing to push bicycles within the regulations that will be set by the Minister. They are initially going to be required to travel at under 25 km/h and with certain weight and power structures. My colleague will have the details if the Deputy wishes.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We have done work on that as a committee and there is a sense that these vehicles are relatively slow moving, but we have also discovered as a committee, when we looked at the realm of e-scooters, that some of them can travel at speeds of between 90 km/h and 100 km/h, without restrictors on them.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Where insurance cases are not settled and go legal, is the sector finding that post-Covid backlog to be significant?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
Yes, there are backlogs in the courts, although I cannot speak for the entire sector. We can speak for our own claims and there is certainly a backlog. We try to prioritise the claims where we can through the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, PIAB, and we are big supporters of what is going to be called the personal injury resolution board. We try to steer as many of our settlements as possible through that body but some of them go through litigation and there are delays in the courts. It would be fair to say there is a backlog.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I return to the question I asked about NCT tests, the four-month delays and L-plates. I get where Mr. Fitzgerald is coming from and I had expected he would not be able to say a lot, but will he tell us, as we look at a new raft of legislation, whether there are any other grey or uncertain areas?
I have highlighted two, but when things are contested, what are the other grey areas or loopholes we need to be aware of at the moment?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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What of the lack of a test certificate or the out-of-date NCT certificate?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Fitzgerald said of uninsured drivers that 7.8% of the cars on the road that are uninsured-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I presume that is mostly cars, or would commercial vehicles also come into that category?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Does MIBI cover everybody? Do all uninsured vehicles end up with it?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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However, the witnesses have no analysis of commercial vehicles or any other types of-----
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
We have the richest available data on private motor vehicles so we perform the analysis on those data. A part of the IMID analyses commercial vehicles also, but we have not done a clash based on that. Private motor vehicles represent 90% to 92% of the national fleet, so we focus the exercise on that because it brings us the biggest return.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Fitzgerald mentioned that the do-gooders, those of us who live within the law, get our vehicles insured and so on, all pay €30 to €35 per annum-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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-----to cover those who have decided not to take out insurance or renew their insurance. Do the witnesses have any metric or figure as to what that amounts to nationally, what it is costing the Irish motorist per annum to cover those who are uninsured?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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With legislative improvements, where would MIBI see that 8.3%? Where would it expect it to land? What would be a comparable percentage in another country where there are similar-----
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
It did not happen overnight, but if we were to look across the water, going back a little over ten years ago, when the UK brought in a similar system, uninsured driving levels would have been up at approximately 6.5%. Members will have seen in the comparative table that the UK has been able to get that down to 2.5%. It has taken time, but it is a matter of bringing in the technology and giving the police forces the tools to aid enforcement. If people feel they will get caught, and if we have the modern, digital ability to detect the uninsured drivers, which the Road Traffic and Roads Bill would act as an enabler of, we could bring that percentage down significantly over the coming years. It is a virtuous circle even because if people feel they will get caught, it drives the right behaviour. We saw that when penalty points and speed cameras came in. It made a difference to road safety and fatalities. There is a prize like that for us if we can get this technology in and give gardaí the tools to increase enforcement. This will change hearts and minds.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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If the Chairman will allow me just one last question I omitted earlier, the young male driver has long been pilloried in the media as the worst offender on the roads. Does that really stack up any more, in the opinion of the witnesses, or is everyone-----
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
I am afraid it does in respect of uninsured driving. We can only follow the drivers. Most drivers of uninsured cars in respect of which we compensate victims are males in the 18-to-30 bracket, unfortunately, so there is certainly a problematic cohort of people in this space. When we do our awareness advertising, that is the cohort we target as well as their female influencers.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The next slot is mine but I will give it to Senator Dooley.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Chair. I appreciate that. I thank the witnesses for their presentation and for highlighting this issue in recent weeks. The committee has been taken by it for a number of reasons, principally the cost of insurance. It is very clear from the numbers the witnesses have outlined that a significant number of people are not paying their insurance, and that has a knock-on effect on the premiums we all pay. There have been some efforts by some sections of the media to somehow question MIBI's figures. I know the witnesses have done so, but I would like them to set out again in some considerable detail the methodology MIBI has used to arrive at this. I made some public statements on this at the time and a few people contacted me to say that it is actually the individual, not the car, who is insured. Will the witnesses explain that a little more?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
We focus on the vehicles. I will do my best to answer the question, and then, if there are particular technical details, I will pass the Senator to my colleague, Mr. O'Brien, who is our project manager on our part of the project. We start with the Irish motor insurance database, which is updated by our members. All motor insurers in Ireland have to be a member of MIBI. They send in to us nightly uploads of vehicles coming on and off, so it is an up-to-date position. We took that snapshot of insured motor vehicles. We focused on private motors for the exercise, as I touched on in reply to Deputy Crowe. Then we got a feed from the Department of Transport national vehicle records in Shannon. We did not want to get false positives whereby a vehicle may be sitting in a yard or off the road, so we took taxed vehicles as a kind of control. We compared all the taxed vehicles against the insurance and focused on the private motor, which makes up the vast majority of the national fleet. The figure is the difference between the two.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Taxed vehicles were the control.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Has MIBI attempted to do the corollary of that?
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I ask that question only because in the ether there is a suggestion that people were always trying to ensure that the car was insured in terms of the impact of the penalty on the other side. That, for many people, was a priority. The tax might often lag. I am, therefore, surprised if that is the control MIBI has used. Could there in fact be a greater number not insured because of those that are not taxed at all? Was any effort made to identify cars that are neither taxed nor insured?
Mr. Tom O'Brien:
To articulate what Mr. Fitzgerald said, we compare what is taxed as of the end of the year, 31 December. We take what is taxed and what is insured at that point in time. We crash the two numbers together and figure out what is uninsured out of that. We have tried to use taxed vehicles as the control because we really have no idea as to which vehicles are untaxed. They may be insured but we have no idea if those vehicles are actually being used or if they are sitting in a yard somewhere or under a "sale sought" sign in a garage or something like that. It is very difficult to figure that out because, unlike the UK, we do not really have a system whereby vehicles are taken off the road in a formal sense. The size of the motor fleet could be very large, but at least if they are being taxed we know they are being used.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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That is helpful. The witnesses are clearly here with a straightforward ask: progress the legislation. I agree with my colleague, Deputy O'Rourke, that the committee should recommend to the Government that we move that as quickly as possible.
May I broaden the question of detection a little? The dreaded speed vans sit on the side of the road and we all regularly encounter them, with different success rates as we pass. Could the stationary GoSafe vans be permitted with legislation to capture cars that are uninsured as well?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
They could with the right legislation in place. The initial plan with the Garda is that it has ANPR technology in a lot of the road policing vehicles. It plans to add our database to that. Then it has a big investment in a mobility programme whereby it is rolling out a lot of what look a bit like handheld mobile devices. There are a lot of apps on them to check different things like motor tax and driver licensing. The insurance app will then go onto those mobile devices as well.
With modern cameras, gardaí can read a licence plate from more than 1 km away and process it quickly against databases. There are exciting possibilities for the use of technology. Of course, there needs to be a safe legal basis to do so. I suspect additional legislation would be needed for the GoSafe vans. The Garda would be best placed to advise on that.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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There are other technologies. The tunnel has a speed restriction and is dynamically-----
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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It surely does. Similarly, a section on the M7 south of Nenagh is also monitored.
Will Mr. Fitzgerald speak about demographics and the age group that has been identified? I am concerned about a particular age cohort of people who succeeded in remaining on the road by getting successive provisional licences without ever having to do a test. That situation was changed a number of years ago, which caused problems. I know from my work that there are people in their late to mid-70s, and some in their 80s, who cannot insure their cars now because they do not have driver licences as a result of the change. They will never take a test. Has the MIBI data to suggest that X percent of this cohort are within certain categories? Those data would allow for targeted encouragement of those people.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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The MIBI's information is based on the accidents on which it pays out.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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By their nature, elderly people are less likely to be involved in accidents.
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
That is right. It can be a somewhat adversarial process. We are looking after the victims. Uninsured drivers are not always co-operative, but we capture what information we can. When we did a deep dive into it a number of years ago, we identified that the primary cohort responsible for causing the majority of accidents were men in the 18 to 30 year bracket.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Which is the case across the piece, but there may be people in other categories.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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The MIBI has no access to those data. Perhaps this committee could try to capture them based on Garda surveillance or other data from the Garda.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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I was taken by the statement that a couple of countries had no uninsured cars. That is difficult to believe, but maybe it has to do with the systems in those countries. Mr. Fitzgerald mentioned Germany in this context. What knowledge can he share with us about how Germany does this business?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
That is a great question. We are starting to look into the matter. We only got our hands on these figures in recent days from COB in Brussels. We are close to the UK and spend a great deal of time sharing knowledge with it, but we are going to use our contacts in COB to dig deeper into how other jurisdictions are doing this and what we can learn from them.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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It might just be due to their administrative systems. Achieving 100% compliance with anything suggests to me-----
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
There are a couple of uninsured drivers within those figures, but the number is so small that it is coming out as zero in our analysis. I believe the number is 0.01% or the like. It is effectively zero. There is something in the way other jurisdictions control the vehicles, but this is a matter we want to learn more about. We can then revert to the committee at a later date.
Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
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Maybe we need a system change instead of an examination of detection methods.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will start with the accidents that the MIBI covers. There is a difference between an uninsured vehicle and an uninsured person. If someone steals a car that was insured under someone else's name and is involved in an accident, does that fall under the MIBI's remit?
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Even if it is stolen.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Apologies, as I know the witnesses addressed this matter with Deputy Crowe, but what about accidents that involve e-scooters and e-bikes where there is no insurance? The proposal is that there would not be insurance.
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
That is the direction in which the EU wants to go. There is a balancing act. If it was up to me, we would encourage more insurance. That way, the victims would be compensated. The EU is trying to strike a balance and encourage people to use them from a green perspective. The EU's plans and the Road Traffic and Roads Bill 2021 will make them more equivalent to push bicycles, provided they are not high-powered. If they are high-powered, they will be treated like mopeds and motorbikes and will require tax and insurance. That is the essence of the situation.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I suppose the MIBI's request in respect of the Bill has to do with these vehicles being faster and better.
I will add my voice to those of my colleagues. The MIBI has made a proposal relating to the British solution, for want of a better term, in that the car needs to be insured unless there are particular circumstances.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is a given. Mr. Fitzgerald pointed out that enforcement would be much easier if the database was completed and everyone had access to it. We all acknowledge that.
I assumed there would be a caveat to the figures the witnesses provided, but Mr. Fitzgerald is saying that the MIBI may have underestimated the number, has now done a great deal of due diligence to ensure it does not underestimate it in future, and all the clever anomalies we try to think up only amount to a negligible figure. That shocks me. In the past two years, there has been an increase of 32,000 in the number of uninsured vehicles, with 13,000 in the past year.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The percentage of uninsured vehicles is increasing every year.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. The figure is getting worse. The witnesses have already been asked a number of questions beyond the MIBI's remit, but we are all aware of the personal injury guidelines and the PIAB. Those changes should probably have been made much sooner. Regarding insurance in general, we are on the correct trajectory, but we should have reached this point earlier and there are still more moves to be made. The Government has a part to play.
We have all spoken to young men who have said that paying insurance puts them under severe pressure. I do not know how that cohort can pay for a car while also paying for accommodation and the increases in the cost of living we have all experienced over the past year and a half or longer. This issue must be included in the mix. Work must be done to ensure premiums for these people drop. In other industries, there is a tipping point whereby if you know someone who is not paying, you are more likely not to pay as well. Most people still want to pay insurance and make sure they are covered, but we must deal with the cost and the fact that insurance companies have made a fortune in recent years. While matters have moved in the correct direction, the companies have not done a sufficient amount of the heavy lifting. That is where we are at this point in time.
I expected the uninsured figures to be an overestimation.
I am shocked. Mr. Fitzgerald stated that the MIBI does not have access to Garda information in respect of those people who have been caught.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is a job of work that the committee has to do. It is a fair ask in order that we can have a real conversation. The MIBI is obviously dealing with worst-case scenarios in the context of incredibly serious accidents and claims. Has it compared those sorts of claims and costs with regular car accidents? Is it generally dealing with something that is a lot worse or serious?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
The short answer is "Yes". We use consultant actuaries to help us set our reserves in order that our balance sheet is correct. The accidents we deal with tend to be a little worse than what the insurance industry would see. As I touched on earlier, the nature of the type of drivers who are prepared to drive an uninsured car means they have a greater appetite for risk, so there are issues of speed and, unfortunately, there can be issues of alcohol and drugs. They might also cars that are less roadworthy. As a result, we do tend to see some really nasty accidents.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Fitzgerald have a breakdown of that versus the breakdown of what falls into the insured category?
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The MIBI has that work done, so we could get a copy of it.
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
I am not sure we have anything up to date on that. Those are the types of questions we would ask our actuaries. They operate on behalf of a number of other insurers. They tell us that the accidents we deal with tend to be worse than what would be seen in the industry. However, I do not have an analysis for the Deputy which would indicate that it is an exact percentage - for example, 12%. It is just the advice they give us when we are setting our reserves for our accounts.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We are talking about serious injuries and, worse, tragedies. We are also talking about far bigger payouts. Mr. Fitzgerald has no notion of the MIBI's average versus the industry average.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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By a considerable amount. It is a matter of checking if those figures have changed in the last while. Mr. Fitzgerald might have figures in respect of cases where alcohol and-or drugs were involved. Beyond that, are we talking about uninsured cars that were owned by person involved or are they vehicles that used to be referred to as company cars?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
Certainly, they are still a feature of our claims book. We do not have statistical analysis in the way the Deputy is describing. We have a feel for the claims because we are looking at them all of the time. A common feature in some of the claims is that alcohol and drugs would come up regularly, and company cars would be a feature in some claims. They are certainly things we are well aware of, although we do not have an analysis of the breakdowns. Our primary focus is to look after the victims and get them their compensation. We are trying to raise the issues holistically, although we know we have a large cohort of males aged 18 to 30, so we try to target them through social media to explain the consequences of being caught driving uninsured, including that gardaí can seize vehicles.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We are then into the question of the various brackets. It is obviously those people, as referred to by Senator Dooley, who just find themselves in a position where it is difficult from their point of view to get themselves right, for want of a better term, in regard to licensing and so on. Mr. Fitzgerald referred to the younger cohort. There are those who just say they cannot afford this, although I am not saying that is right, and then there are things like company cars, where people are going out and buying cheap cars for joyriding and so on. The only positive is that they are not stolen, but we are talking about cars that are not up to scratch. How many of them fall into this category? I imagine it is a considerable number.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I was going to ask about that.
Mr. Tom O'Brien:
To take the statistics in that regard, we only collect about €400,000 or €500,000 a year in money recovered from uninsured drivers. The primary reason for this is that most of the uninsured drivers are people without means, so they are not able to pay a lot of money back to the MIBI. In comparison with what we are paying out, perhaps €70 million a year, what we are able to recover from individuals who have caused the accidents is very small.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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How much is the MIBI getting?
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I imagine that they sometimes do not and that the MIBI has to take them to court.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. O'Brien have any idea how much it costs to get that €500,000?
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am not giving out about it. The law is set up as it is, and the costs are the costs. I assume due diligence is done in order the MIBI gets the best bang for its buck. However, the fact is we are paying out €70 million and getting €500,000 back. Mr. O'Brien states that even this is at a cost of about €250,000.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will finish up shortly. I appreciate the over and back with the witnesses. We need to look at those figures in the context of what happens. We need to ensure that whether it is enforcement or the piece that needs to be done when it comes to ridiculous insurance prices, it all needs to be done because we need to facilitate people so they can afford to put a car on the road, have it taxed and insured and have a licence. We also need people to be a hell of a lot more careful. That goes for all of us.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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With good manners, we would need a lot less rules.
Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for the introduction and for the submission they have made, which is interesting and informative for us. Many of the questions have been answered. They are stark and damning statistics, to say the least. It is disturbing and alarming to have 180,000 vehicles without insurance, one in every 12 private vehicles, which is the second-highest rate of uninsured vehicles in the European league of insurance, as well as 2,000 claims per year at an average of more than €70,000.
I do not think anyone out there understands or appreciates the extent of the problem. While insurance is complex, the question the committee has to get to the root of is why we have so many people who do not have insurance. One of the reasons is obviously the cost involved. This is particularly the case for young people who need cars to go to work or college and so on. They are running the risk because the cost of insurance is more than the cost of the car, which is one of the big issues. Lack of enforcement is an issue in that people driving uninsured are not detected, which is where the legislation comes in. We have to ensure that we promote the legislation because automatic number plate recognition is the obvious way to link up the data so that when a car plate number is scanned, the garda on duty can immediately determine whether or not there is insurance. Enforcement is an obvious answer.
Motor vehicle insurance is one aspect of it. We are at the stage now where motorcycle clubs, the equine industry, including those running point-to-point meetings, and voluntary organisations that can no longer get insurance, which means that a lot of those events have to be cancelled. That is an issue that also has to be addressed by the committee.
The other questions I wanted to ask have already been asked, so I will not delay the witnesses by repeating them. I ask Mr. Fitzgerald to outline, particularly for the public watching the meeting, the structure of the MIBI. How many people are employed in the organisation, and how many insurance companies contribute to the fund? How is the actual levy by each insurance company determined and agreed? What are the procedures involved when a claim is made? What is the average timescale for the settlement of claims, and how many of those cases end up in a legal process? We all know that process can take a long time and is very expensive.
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
It all starts with an agreement between MIBI and the Minister for Transport. That sets out our raison d'être, which is to compensate the victims of uninsured or untraced hit-and-run accidents. We do other things for the State around cross-Border and motor insolvency issues, but we will focus here on uninsured driving. It starts from the agreement. We have a small, lean headquarters and there are 20 people employed in the bureau. We outsource some of our claims, once there are issues of liability, to claims-handling experts. We have a legal panel of specialists in the relevant area of law. We investigate every claim, because the nature of uninsured claims is that they warrant investigation. We have various specialists in the bureau that manage the quality of the claims handling to make sure they are handled efficiently and as we would expect, that the process is fair and we are paying the right amount of compensation - not too much and not too little. We put a lot of focus on that. We are fully funded by the motor insurance industry. It is a legal requirement under the Road Traffic Act for any motor insurers writing business in Ireland, regardless of whether they are supervised here or in another EU country, to join MIBI. They fund our claims in proportion to the market share. For example, if they have a 10% market share, they contribute 10% to the cost of the compensation we deliver. That goes up and down each year as companies shrink and grow. It always remains in proportion to their market share. The vast majority of the funding we receive is channelled to the victims. We are proud of how we do that and we feel we run it in a very efficient way.
The Deputy touched on the legal process. We try to support the Personal Injuries Resolution Board, PIRB, as it is referred to now. That would be our compensation mechanism of choice if we can choose one at all, because there are great savings on legal costs there. We are very keen to support that. We support the work it has done recently on its new personal injury guidelines, and we are sticking by those awards. If a claimant is not happy with an award, he or she is entitled to reject it and to pursue legal proceedings. That is very much a feature of our claims in the same way it would be in the insurance industry. Where we can, we are very keen to support the PIRB and we are excited about the new mediation process that it plans to introduce later in the year. We are very keen to lean into that and I engage with the CEO regularly.
Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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So, the levy is determined by the share of the market of each insurance company?
Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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Mr. Fitzgerald might not have the figure to hand, but what percentage of cases actually go down the legal route?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
I can give the Deputy an idea of the spend. Perhaps that would be a proxy. Around two thirds of the funds we expend on claims actually goes to the claimants in compensation. That is around 65%. We expend 16.9% of our funds on legal fees that go to claimants' solicitors, so that could be rounded up to 17%. Our legal costs make up 8% of our expenditure and we spend about 4% on our handling offices, which are the firms that help us settle the claims. We spend another 4% on investigations, which includes the costs of medical reports and accident investigators visiting the scenes of road traffic accidents. That gives the Deputy a sense of the spend I think.
Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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Mr. Fitzgerald has provided us with percentages. What was MIBI's total outlay in 2022?
Michael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
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I am glad to hear Mr. Fitzgerald say that MIBI has bought into the mediation process. Obviously, that will be reflected in its legal bill.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It is my own slot now. Many of the points have been covered and I thank the witnesses. When it was mentioned a few weeks ago, I said that this was a topic that we should cover. In fact, we were not sure whether it would be within our remit or that of the finance committee or the enterprise committee. The committee on enterprise covers issues like insurance, and the finance committee has also looked at insurance. I was a member of the finance committee previously. The fact that MIBI has a relationship with the Department of Transport means that the issue really is within our remit.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I think it is very relevant, particularly with all the other work we have done on road safety and so on. There are a few things that I want to ask about that perhaps were not covered so much earlier. To tax your car, you have to put in insurance details, which suggests that the car at least has to have an insured driver. Perhaps not everybody using the car is insured.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I will just develop the point.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Is it the case that I can put in the details of an insurance policy and get away with it, or is there an automatic check on the details that I put in on the company, whether it is Allianz, AXA, FBD or whoever? Is the motor tax system able to interrogate and verify that the insurance policy is a valid one and belongs to the driver, and so on?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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When you are taxing your car, you have to put in some insurance details so anyone who is taxing a car and is not insured is inputting fraudulent data and is committing an act of fraud when they tax their car.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Surely it is not potentially. It is either a valid insurance policy or it is not.
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
For sure. They could put in fraudulent details. One of the advantages of passing the Road Traffic and Roads Bill 2021 is that we would have a safe legal basis to pass that motor insurance data on to the Department of Transport. That would enable the Department of Transport to build real-time validation into its systems, in the way the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach has described. I think the Department has a lot of plans for the data when we are allowed to pass them on to it. I cannot speak for the Department, but my understanding is that it is interested in applications like that.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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There was a time when you had to have a valid NCT disc to get a tax disc. That requirement was scrapped a long time ago for understandable reasons. At the same time, it would make sense that all of these databases were talking to each other.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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We have heard of cases where people have been caught driving without tax, insurance or a driving licence. Clearly, there is another cohort of cars out there that are not even taxed. I would suggest that if they are not taxed, it is highly likely that they are not insured either.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Therefore, MIBI's figures are possibly understating the problem.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I know it is not MIBI's area of responsibility as such, but do we have we any idea, from any statistics, how many untaxed cars are out there in terms of the motor vehicle fleet within the country?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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A total of €2 billion is what has been paid out since the MIBI's inception, which is a huge amount. It is €70 million a year, and effectively we are all subsidising the uninsured drivers. Mr. Fitzgerald said that, at one stage, 128 people per day were being picked up on a very limited basis. Was that when the ANPR started to be used? There was talk about false positives at one stage. Were those 128 valid?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
There is a very simple, limited version of ANPR being used on a number of Garda devices, but it is an old database that has very limited information. It has a registration number and an insurance name, but it does not have the richness of the data An Garda Síochána says it needs for enforcement - who the drivers are, the class of the vehicle, and when it went on and off. It is a crude indicator they have in some areas of road policing at the moment. The data quality is okay now. In the early days there were issues around data quality, but we have worked hard with our members to clean up the data.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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That is 128 per day on quite a small sample, you would imagine. It could be a lot higher.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the car versus the driver, the car is insured, so the MIBI looking at uninsured cars rather than drivers. The car is taxed but not insured. I think that is how it is extrapolated. What is the story when somebody is driving a car they are not entitled to drive? For example, it could be their mother's car, but they are not on the policy and there is not open driving. What happens there? Are they an uninsured driver, or as per the MIBI figures, does it end up paying out if a 17-year-old or 19-year-old who is not on a policy takes his or her parent's car and does damage? Does the policy end up paying it or does the MIBI end up paying it?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
Typically, the policy ends up paying it. My colleague will correct me if I have the technical details wrong, but typically, the policy ends up paying. If the vehicle is insured, the insurer will respond. They may have a row with their policyholder later on once they have compensated the victim, but it would not be a claim which we would generally have to pick up.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I see there is a vótáil but I will keep going for a little while, and see how we get on. I think it has only been called.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It is kind of extrapolated on a general basis, but are there geographic pockets, areas of disadvantage, more rural or more urban? Do you know where these cars are?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
We are just in the process of finalising our 2022 figures, so I hope to have something more up to date in a few weeks' time. We analysed this previously, however. We do not know by the nature of uninsured driving, because you could register your car in Dublin but you could be driving in Cork. What we can follow is where the accidents are happening, and we can use that as a kind of proxy. Dublin, Louth, Limerick and Longford are particular hot spots where we see a disproportionate amount, when we look at it through a per capitalens. We take our claims county by county, and then we use census data to get a per capitaview. Those four counties have a disproportionate number of uninsured claims.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Louth, Limerick, Longford and Dublin.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Yet Longford and Roscommon are right beside each other, which is peculiar.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Has the MIBI any ability to do targeted campaigns in Longford, Louth, Limerick or Dublin relative to Roscommon?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
We have shared those figures with An Garda Síochána in the past, and we will do it again when we have updated our figures. We do not have responsibility for enforcement, but what we can do is pass on the information. What we have seen is that using social and digital media is a very cost-effective way for us to do it. We are not for profit, so we are trying to do it in a cost-effective way. We have done online advertising targeting 18- to 30-year-old males and their female influencers. We talk about the ANPR technology that is here and will be bolstered, how people are more likely to be caught, and the penalties for being caught driving uninsured: the five penalty points, fines, prison and the vehicle being seized. We also talk about how an uninsured driving claim will stay with you for a long time. You might not be in means now, but we will get a judgment against you, and then that judgment will stay with you for 12 years. If you want to get a car loan or a mortgage, that is sitting there in the background, or if you came into money down the line, we can execute-----
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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They are for the people the MIBI is chasing regarding an accident that actually happened.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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As opposed to people who just jumped in the car, having taxed it but who were not insured, and they are driving around. What is the sanction for them at the moment? What happens when they are caught by An Garda Síochána for driving without insurance?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Does that happen?
Mr. David Fitzgerald:
It does. We do not have detailed statistics on it. We track media reports, but there is not, to the best of our knowledge, any collated courts data where we can see them. An Garda Síochána may have more up-to-date figures, and we would be very interested in those. We have people who might have been caught driving uninsured ten times, so it is worrying when you see that it is not getting through to them.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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It is clearly not getting through to them.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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Again, do they get fined? Do we know if they pay the fines?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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What Mr. Fitzgerald is really looking for is the Road Traffic and Roads Bill 2021 to be enacted as soon as possible, and then to look at the system in Britain, which requires everybody who is taxed to get a letter saying they are not insured, or that their car is taxed but not insured, and we are going to fine you unless you give us-----
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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They do not have discs on their windscreens in the UK, do they?
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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The main take we have is the need to have the Road Traffic and Roads Bill 2021 enacted, and then have all these databases talking to each other properly.
Gerry Horkan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Fitzgerald. On that basis, I am going to conclude the meeting. I thank the witnesses, unless they have anything else they want to contribute. I thank Mr. Fitzgerald and Mr. O'Brien for being here today. It has been a very useful and helpful discussion and I thank them for highlighting the issue.