Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have not received any apologies. Members participating remotely are reminded of the requirement to do so from within the precincts of the Leinster House complex. I ask members and witnesses to please turn off their mobile phones or ensure they are in silent mode. I ask members of the committee who are participating remotely to use the raise-hand icon on Microsoft Teams if they wish to contribute.

I welcome the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, and Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, and their officials to the meeting to discussion the Revised Estimates for Votes 37 and 42. While the committee has no role in approving the Estimates, it is an ongoing opportunity for it to examine departmental expenditure, make the overall budgetary process more transparent and engage meaningfully on relevant performance-related issues.

In the first session we will consider the Revised Estimate for Vote 37 – social protection, which was presented to Dáil Éireann on 14 December 2022.

I call on the Minister to give some brief opening remarks.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Chairman and members for their invitation to attend the committee today to discuss the 2023 Revised Estimates for the Department of Social Protection.

As we face into 2023, it is timely to recap on the challenges Ireland has faced over the past 12 months. We entered 2022 under Covid restrictions but, thankfully, then saw a significant easing of Covid-19 pressures on our society, with a resultant fall of €5.6 billion in my Department’s expenditure year on year between 2021 and 2022. However, the war in Ukraine has led to an unanticipated, but very significant, impact on spending since February of last year. My Department spent over €246 million in 2022 to provide direct financial supports to people fleeing Ukraine covered by the temporary protection directive. Up to the middle of last week, over 72,500 personal public service numbers, PPSNs, had been allocated, with 34,000 income support claims and 13,000 child benefit claims currently in payment to people who have fled the war.

Looking forward, the Department was allocated €480 million for supports for Ukrainian refugees as part of its Revised Estimates Volume for 2023. This figure will be kept under close review with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform as the situation develops through 2023.

The war in Ukraine has also added to more general price pressures. After decades of low inflation, increases in the costs of oil, gas and other goods sourced on global markets have hit households in Ireland and around the world hard. The Government responded through a number of measures. In my Department, budget 2023 delivered the largest social protection package in the history of the State. This package, valued at €2.2 billion, provided for a range of eight cost-of-living supports delivered by my Department in quarter 4 of 2022 and for targeted ongoing measures effective from the start of this year.

In framing the financial Estimates position for 2023 and comparing it with the outturn for 2022, my officials have sought to provide the committee with a like-for-like comparison between the two years. We have done this by setting out the monetary value of the Christmas bonus, all of the other cost-of-living supports, the residual Covid measures and the cost of temporary protection Ukraine measures in the extensive briefing document before members. The Revised Estimates, which the committee is to consider today, reflect the financial provision for 2023. It is a year in which many potential challenges may arise for our economy and society, not least the continuing war in Ukraine and its ongoing impact on prices, especially for such staples as energy and food. Projected spending for the Department in 2023 is €23.9 billion, compared with an estimated outturn for 2022 of €24.6 billion. It should be borne in mind that spending in 2022 was inflated by the inclusion of €1.2 billion of Covid-related measures and a further €1.2 billion in once-off cost-of-living supports.

As members know, the work of my Department is broad in scope, supporting people throughout the life cycle, from the payment of child benefit to the provision of income supports when people reach pension age. The Department's expenditure, at €23.9 billion for 2023, is still the largest of any Department, representing more than one third of gross current Government expenditure. With this level of expenditure, we must ensure our social protection system is properly structured and provides support when people need it most.

The projected 2023 expenditure of €23.9 billion hopefully represents a normalisation of the pattern of social protection spending, but it is a new normal and a higher level of expenditure, incorporating budget day measures of over €1 billion on a full-year basis.

I am proud to have delivered the largest social welfare budget package in the history of the State, providing a targeted mixture of once-off and ongoing measures. The ESRI’s post-budget analysis has shown this will be effective in protecting most households from rising prices, especially the most vulnerable in our society.

We acted quickly, providing eight lump sums across a vast range of social protection supports in the last quarter of 2022. Then, from the start of January, we have introduced a wide range of social protection increases which were announced as part of budget 2023. This includes a €12 across-the-board increase to weekly rates, the largest increase to those rates since the mid-2000s.

I was pleased to announce a major expansion of the fuel allowance scheme as part of the budget. I was particularly pleased to extend the eligibility criteria for those aged over 70 so that more older people will qualify for the fuel allowance. We have already seen more than 20,000 additional households avail of the scheme since the budget changes were announced. As part of the budget, we also disregarded the half-rate carer's allowance payments from the fuel allowance means test, which is something this committee had raised with me previously.

We have brought in other increases, such as a €40 increase in weekly income thresholds for the working family payment; a €20.50 increase in the monthly rate of domiciliary care allowance, bringing the rate to €330; and another increase in payments in respect of children of social welfare recipients, bringing the payment to €42 per week for children under 12 and €50 per week for children aged 12 and over. These measures are reflected in the expenditure subheads presented today.

The Government will closely monitor the economic situation during the year and stands ready to respond to further support our citizens as and when required, as we did in 2022.

The biggest single block of expenditure in 2023 will be on pensions, which will amount to more than €9.8 billion or 41% of overall expenditure.

This is up by almost €360 million, representing 39% of total expenditure, from the 2022 outturn, with €280 million of this increase linked to additional recipient numbers. This reflects the ever-increasing demographic challenges unfolding for this programme. Thankfully, people are living longer lives but that, of course, means an increasing proportion of the Department's expenditure is now providing income support for people in their older years.

Expenditure on illness, disability and carer's payments amounts to €5.1 billion in 2023, representing 21.6% of expenditure, and is slightly down on 2022, reflecting the elimination of Covid illness benefit expenditure in this programme. Furthermore, with the phasing out in 2022 of the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, we will see a levelling off in expenditure on working-age income support schemes. Working-age income supports will account for more than 16% of expenditure in 2023 at €3.87 billion. This includes payments for jobseekers, one-parent families, maternity and paternity payments, and supplementary welfare allowance.

Expenditure on employment supports has reduced significantly, thankfully no longer requiring the very significant, necessary expenditure on the employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS, that was required last year. We plan to provide significant support to community employment, CE; the back-to-education allowance; Tús; the rural social scheme; and the various employment and activation programmes. These will be particularly important in 2023, a year when the Irish economy and the labour market face many downside risks. Employment supports expenditure amounts to €712 million this year or 3% of my Department's spending.

Expenditure on children and families will account for more than 11% of expenditure, or €2.7 billion, of which over €2.1 billion will be spent on child benefit and €363 million on the working family payment.

Expenditure on supplementary payments is €950 million or 4% of 2023 expenditure. This includes significantly increased provision for the fuel allowance scheme, which is crucial at this time of high energy prices.

The broad overview I have presented of social protection expenditure is developed in detail in the briefing material provided to the committee. I am sure the committee will agree it is a very comprehensive analysis of 2023 expenditure on the largest and, potentially, most complex set of Estimates. There is little doubt that 2023 will bring challenges for social protection spending, including evaluating how changes in the economy are impacting those most at risk of poverty.

I thank the staff of the Department, particularly those working on the front lines, who have worked through Covid, worked to support our citizens with cost-of-living pressures, and worked to help those families finding shelter in Ireland after being driven from their homes in Ukraine. In the past, it has been the case that key social protection budget changes would usually take effect in January and, sometimes, in recent years, in March. The fact that the staff of the Department managed to administer eight separate lump-sum payments, set up a new system to administer the fuel allowance and also ensure that the increases to weekly payments were all in place for the start of January took a huge amount of effort.

The one thing I have learned in the Department of Social Protection is that making any change is not as simple as just flicking on a light switch. The work required behind the scenes to develop the IT systems and make sure everything runs smoothly takes a significant amount of time and effort. As Deputies, it is only when something goes wrong that it is brought to our attention. However, we should not take for granted the efforts by the staff of the Department to make sure people receive their payments on schedule every week. Our people, systems and schemes have all shown huge flexibility in responding to what have been unprecedented challenges in recent years.

I look forward to hearing the committee's views and welcome any questions members may have for me or the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien. I thank the committee.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister. We will now go through the Estimate programmes as set out in the table of contents in the document the Minister circulated to members. The first programme is pension programme No. 2 on the table of contents.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister will know that time and again I have talked about means testing of non-contributory pensions and dependent adults. I looked at some figures that will show the Minister there is room for dealing with this issue with generosity. Between 2012 and 2021, which were the most recent statistics I could get, expenditure on the non-contributory pension went up by only 12%. In the same period, expenditure on the contributory pension went up by 63%. I think the Minister will accept that more and more people have made contributions. Furthermore, the number of qualified adults on contributory pensions decreased from 67,000 to 54,000 between 2012 and 2021. This indicates that the non-contributory or dependent adult side is not one of these expenditure lines where the numbers are running out of control. The challenge is on the contributory side, although people have their entitlements in that regard and we have had good discussions on that. It is interesting to note, for example, that the non-contributory pension numbers between 2012 and 2021 have decreased from 96,000 to 95,000 people.

What do I find strange? Will the Minister explain why, if somebody has a job, is on a non-contributory pension and earns his or her money through the PAYE system, that person can earn up to €200 per week which is not means tested? On the other hand, if that person has the same work but is self-employed, he or she can earn €30 a week but anything more, including savings, is means tested. Will the Minister explain the rationale for that rather bizarre, archaic and arcane arrangement? She will know what I have been saying to her for a long time about the calculation of savings where, again and again, I encounter people who have done what they were told to do in respect of savings. If there was one earner, which happened in many families that are now coming to pension age - the Minister and I both know that was the pattern - the reality was that in good arrangements there were joint accounts in most houses. In other words, if main income earners said that since they were earning the income and their partners were rearing the family, what those people earned was their partners' money as much as theirs and it was put into joint accounts. Such people get severely penalised for having joint savings.

I have come across an extraordinary case where a farmer had land but also worked. This situation is not unique and people are again getting caught. About three or four years before he came to pension age, on advice, the farm was put into joint names. He had a good hill farm. His wife never had her name on the deeds until then. She was assessed on half the value of the farm, which amounts to more than €100 a week, and suddenly she had no dependent adult allowance. In her case, the amount was over what would allow her to qualify for any adult dependent allowance. Such people are just getting tripped up left, right and centre. We will come to disability allowance later on.

As I said, this is not a burgeoning budget head. It will go down over time. Will the Minister not now move and do something about it? It will save her Department the embarrassment of these bizarre situations.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy. This is a matter he has raised with me on a number of occasions. To be fair, I made changes, as recommended by the committee, to the half-rate for carers in respect of the fuel means test. He will know that I increased the means test for the over-70s this year.

I have committed to conduct a full review of all the means tests this year. I have asked my officials to examine the different tests across all schemes. Some schemes have a means test of €20,000. Let us face it, that amount used to buy a car but it would buy much now compared to then.

I am giving a commitment now that this year we will do full review of the means test across the board.

I agree with the Deputy on the qualifying adult in terms of the pension. Those unfortunate enough to have money in a joint account with their partner really lose out. The same applies with farming land. We have made improvements in terms of credits for the contributory pension. People are allowed credits for the time they spend caring. Under the new pension changes I propose to make, credits will be given for people who have been caring for people with disabilities for more than 20 years. Those are improvements we have made. This year the Department will do a complete trawl of the means test and we will see if we can make changes. The Deputy is right in saying that some of it will not cost very much and it means a great deal to people on the ground.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and their officials for attending. The work of the Pensions Commission is obviously very important. It has made a recommendation on the abolition of mandatory retirement. Will the Minister introduce legislation in that regard?

I agree with Deputy Ó Cuív's comments on the means test and the €20,000 amount really needs to change. We saw welcome changes in the fuel allowance whereby the first €50,000 in savings will now be disregarded in the context of the means test. We need to look at that when it comes to the State pension non-contributory, especially when household means are taken into account. Some people are saving for their funerals and some of them are saving for the possibility of one of them having to go into care. This applies to older couples in particular. They are really being impacted by the existing €20,000 rule for the means test. I welcome the Minister's commitment to look at that.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have brought forward proposals on foot of the Pensions Commission's recommendations. I announced last September that I had brought a memorandum to Cabinet. As we know, the State pension age will remain at 66. Flexible access to the contributory State pension will be introduced from 1 January to allow people reaching 66 years of age to defer access and allow them to continue to contribute in order to make up the difference, if they wish to do so, up to the age of 70. As a consequence of allowing people to defer access to their pension until 70, we have a bit of work to do to extend access to contingency-based short-term payments. We are looking at how best we can do it.

The long-term sustainability of the State pension will be addressed by increasing over time the social insurance contribution. These rates will be reviewed in a structured way and based on up-to-date data at scheduled intervals. In the first quarter of this year I will be looking at that. I will be getting a report on this to see what we need to do in that space.

The smoothed earnings calculation would also apply to benchmarking or the indexed rate of State pension payments. That will be introduced as an input to the annual budget process and will be submitted to Government every year.

The Deputy asked about retirement age. We have a few things to look at on that and we will make further proposals on how we deal with that. We are working our way through it at the moment.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister and her officials for the very comprehensive briefing document, which runs to 101 pages. I wish to follow up on the point Deputy Kerrane made about the mandatory retirement age. I know it is a continuing sore point for many people who are made to retire at 65 and then do not have access to the State pension until 66. I would appreciate if we could move on that.

On reading the document, I was struck by the fact that the Department of Social Protection probably has a fuller picture of the people arriving here from Ukraine than any other Department by the nature of the payments it makes. Regarding pensions, does the Department have an idea of how many people arriving here are not of working age?

Expenditure on pensions has increased by almost €316 million. Is that linked to the additional number of people in receipt of it? Has that been modelled out? One of the things about an ageing demographic is that it is fairly predictable. What is the anticipated increase in the number of people accessing the pension?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

About 5% of adult Ukrainians who are here are aged over 66. Approximately 3,500 people are getting pensions. PPS numbers had been issued to 72,240 people as of the close of business on 22 January. Some 48% of them are adult women; 30% are people aged under 18; 22% are adult males; and, as I said, about 3,500 are adults aged over 66 who get a pension.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do they receive non-contributory pensions?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. They go straight onto it.

The Deputy again mentioned the 65-year-olds. As I said to Deputy Kerrane, we will explore designing a scheme to modify the current benefit payment for 65-year-olds to provide a benefit payment for people who, following a long working life of 40 years or more, are not in a position to remain working in their early 60s. We are looking at how we can do something there.

The actuarial review of the Social Insurance Fund is due to be finalised in the coming weeks and once completed this statutory review will be brought to Government prior to its publication before the end of March at the very latest. Once the actuarial review is published, the Department of Social Protection will prepare a proposal on a roadmap for PRSI increases, including options on the rates and the timing of any increases. We will get a full actuarial review and we will get an outlook of what is coming down the road. I know the Pensions Commission recommended doing something for the next 30 years. I did not want to do that because things change. The Social Insurance Fund is in a much healthier position than we thought it would be. Projections in 2017 suggested it would be in serious deficit today. That is not the case and there is more than €2 billion in the Social Insurance Fund at the moment. That is thanks to a very strong labour market and despite the money that was paid out on the pandemic unemployment payment. I will have a full report at the end of March. At that stage, we can consider what increases we need to apply. It can be much smaller and incremental. We can do it in such a way that we are informed by real-time data. We will lay out a plan for the next ten years with reviews at five-year intervals.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We move on to chapter 3, working age income supports programme. Do any members have questions on that?

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Chairman may direct me if I am under the wrong heading. The Minister said that €363 million has been allocated to the working family payment. I presume the Department has modelled the projected demand for that. There has been significant expansion of the thresholds. Are all of those who are entitled to this payment aware of it, applying for it and receiving it, or is there an information gap? Is there a large cohort of families who may well be eligible, particularly under the expanded criteria, who may not know that and may not have applied?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are actually running an information campaign this week on the working family payment. We want people to be aware that they can avail of this very important support. We were able to give the lump sum payment before Christmas, which I know was very welcome.

It means that people can work and get this payment. It is a very important support so we are committed to it. As I have said, we are running the information campaign this week to make more people aware of it.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When Revenue and the Department were designing these increased thresholds, they must surely have had an idea of the number of people that would be brought into the net by that expansion. An awareness campaign is important, but do we have any indication of the number of people who have already activated their new entitlements?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I may be able to get the Deputy that figure now. May I come back to him on it? I just do not have it to hand immediately.

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, of course.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The exceptional needs payments have obviously been really important last year and this year. Additional staff were to be taken on by the Department. Will the Minister give us an update on those additional staff? Is it possible to apply for exceptional needs payments and additional needs payments online? This is something I raised with the Minister last year. It would be helpful to a cohort of people to be able to upload all of their supporting documentation and submit their application online rather than having to go over and back when full information is not provided in the first instance, as happens in some cases. What are the current processing times for applications for these payments or the most recent information the Minister has on them? Does the Minister have figures on the number of people who receive the heating supplement, a payment that is not widely known about, every week?

I have raised the issue of treatment benefit previously. When we compare our system with those in other jurisdictions and EU countries, we see that people who pay PRSI throughout their working lives see very little for it here. I have previously asked the Minister whether it would be possible to look at some kind of app for people who are working and paying PRSI that would notify them when they are due a scale and polish, an eye test or whatever it may be. People, particularly workers, should be better informed as to their PRSI entitlements and should be notified when they are due something they can get in return for paying their PRSI. An app or some kind of online function would be really helpful in that regard.

Young jobseekers aged between 18 and 24 are on a much reduced rate of €129.70. There is a commitment in the programme for Government to bring them on par with all other jobseekers. We should not be discriminating based on age. I appreciate the Minister probably will not want to call this discrimination but you only get the reduced rate if you are 18 to 24 so it is based on age. It is unfair and should be removed from our social protection system as quickly as possible.

With regard to the one-parent family payment and lone parents in general, the Minister made a comment regarding the post-budget analysis of the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI. As she will know, the ESRI also found that lone parents benefited relatively less from budget 2023 and, because they tend to be more likely to depend on social welfare, they are more exposed to income losses when welfare payments rise more slowly that inflation. There are issues. Post budget, the lone parent organisations were concerned that there were not specific measures, particularly with regard to the likes of the one-parent family payment. I will refer to the recommendations of the child maintenance review group, particularly those relating to the consideration of child maintenance as means when it comes to social welfare supports and the obligation on lone parents to prove they have sought maintenance. The review group was very clear in its recommendations as to what needed to be changed. Will the Minister provide an update on the legislation she plans to bring forward to implement those recommendations?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There were a good few questions there. I will try to cover them all. The Deputy can come back to me if I leave something out. I will start with the additional needs payments. At the end of December 2022, over 97,000 applications for additional needs payments were processed and awarded. This represents a 63% increase in awarded applications on the same period in 2021. The average amount paid for heating additional needs payments, ANPs, from the beginning of June to the end of December was €471 for electricity bills and €472 for gas. We have been centrally involved in providing support to those fleeing the war in Ukraine, providing more than 36,000 additional needs payments to this cohort in addition to the provision of ongoing social welfare payments. In response to the cost-of-living pressures in 2022, we ran two advertising campaigns in spring and summer of last year to promote awareness of additional needs payments. These campaigns created significant spikes in claims at those times as public awareness of the scheme increased, drawing on our operational resources. These challenges were met by the operational area.

Applications for additional needs payments vary and are often quite complex, reflecting the individual circumstances being experienced. Where it is clear that a person has an urgent or immediate need, every effort is made to ensure the claim is processed on the same day. As we know, community welfare officers are very experienced and can generally assess when a case is urgent enough to require an immediate response. Approximately 10% of community welfare service, CWS, payments to customers across the country are made on this basis. That really shows how responsive the service is to urgent customer needs. A high percentage of applications are now finalised within two weeks and there is currently less than two weeks' work on hand. A lot of resources have been put into this area. I know this is something members have raised with me. We certainly have brought the waiting times down. However, there are cases where people come in to submit an application and are asked to come back with further information. It could be six or seven weeks before they come back with it. That is it. We cannot make them come back any sooner. It can sometimes cause delays when applicants do not bring in the information requested.

On staffing, recruitment has commenced for 74 additional staff. It is anticipated that they will be in place by the end of 2021-----

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the Minister mean 2023?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, 2023. I am sorry; I am losing track of the years. In the interim, 30 social welfare inspectors have been temporarily reassigned to assist with claims processing. The national contact phone line for the community welfare service provides information on the CWS and direct access to a community welfare officer, CWO, as necessary. The phone line receives approximately 7,000 calls in a typical month and has an average wait time of two minutes. Work is under way to develop an online digital additional needs payment application. It is anticipated that this will be live in the first quarter of 2023. I know that is something the Deputy has raised with me.

The Deputy asked me about heating. By the end of 2022, 994 people had received the heat supplement. That is the number we were able to help there. She also mentioned dental treatment. The providers are actually very proactive in reminding people that they are due a treatment but we do want to make sure that people get their entitlements. That is something we can look at. We have been doing a lot of work in other areas but it is something we can look at this year. We are all committed to more digitisation and more apps to make life easier. The only problem is finding all of these apps on your phone. We are committed to looking at that.

The Deputy also mentioned young jobseekers. There is a reduced payment for such jobseekers but there are a lot of supports for young people who take up training opportunities. I encourage anybody who is on a jobseeker's payment to look at what is available because there are very generous supports for those who want to take up some training or take up work through the different schemes we have available.

On child maintenance, as the Deputy knows, we are looking at advancing the legislative provisions and associated provisions to ensure the earliest possible implementation of the changes I have announced, that is, the two changes in respect of the means test.

In the meantime, on an administrative basis my Department is not requiring people to make efforts to seek maintenance from their child’s other parent and the liable relative provisions are not being applied to new claims for one-parent family payment. In effect, we are doing everything we can to help and to implement what we have decided but we need to pass legislation on it.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the total expenditure this year be €23.901 billion?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The total expenditure this year-----

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am asking about the total expenditure of the Department.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, that is what is------

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One of the interesting factors is that in 2012 it was €20.912 billion. We should consider the increase in real terms, allowing that there was 10% inflation in the past year alone. People sometimes get the impression that social welfare expenditure is running out of control but when we compare this year with 2012 in real terms, taking all the inflation through the years into account, it is very well under control. That is a good thing. Much of that is influenced by the fact that there is strong employment in the economy. Nobody factored in all the people who have come here to work. I grew up in an era when getting a job was a problem. Now, the problem in many situations is getting employees. We cannot get enough bus drivers, care workers, hospital workers, retail workers and so on. That is a good news story. It is the way we want it - to be very generous but to do it with a strong economy.

I compliment the Department in respect of a very human matter, one that many Deputies encounter, which is that it waits until it gets an answer. If it takes seven weeks, it waits seven weeks. By way of contrast, when it comes to applicants for a medical card, after 28 days, bang, they are out. For a small farmer with three cows, for example, there is an insistence on getting full accounts and after 28 days the farmer would have to start again. I compliment the Department on its humanity in the way it deals with people. In spite of the fact that it is a massive Department with many customers, it generally provides a very understanding service that takes account of people's reality. Many of the people with whom the Department is dealing, particularly in respect of means-tested schemes where there are complications, are quite vulnerable. They find it difficult to get the paperwork together and need assistance to do so. I compliment the Minister and the Department on their approach in that regard. Long may it last. They should not let any tiny-minded person change it. There is always a temptation in that regard.

I very much welcome the means test commitment. The Minister is aware this has been a bugbear of mine. In an ideal world, there is an attraction to the concept of the seamless basic wage system but to go there in a rush would be very foolish. However, I have always believed there are two changes we can incrementally make that would start us on a road to persons not being penalised for activity. When it comes to the means test for jobseeker’s allowance, farm assist and so on, some people are penalised at 100% for self-employment, while others, such as farmers, are penalised at 70%. There is a bit of a tweak in respect of the environmental grants. In the heel of the hunt, however, a maximum of 50% should be enough to take off anybody. It is still a high percentage. It is more than one pays in income tax at the top level. It would be an improvement, however.

The great news is that expenditure on jobseeker's allowance has dropped since 2012, from €3 billion to €1.5 billion. I know 2012 was a time of high unemployment. Again, the Department is not running away with itself. Farm assist is very interesting. It has gone from €108 million down to €59 million. There are two ways one can deal with farm assist. The Minister’s colleague would be aware of this. One is to ease the means test. That should be done anyway. The other is to encourage people into the rural social scheme, RSS, and give them, as per the original scheme, the full payment of the RSS and disregard their means. In other words, a person who does the 19 hours of work gets the full wage. Nobody in private employment gets penalised for self-employment. Employment under the RSS is a job. If it was taken out of rural Ireland, one would suddenly realise the incredible output of work for which it is responsible. The Minister knows that. She represents a rural parish, just as I do.

On the other side of that and in the context of semi-employment, the same thing goes when it comes to the amount of work a person on jobseeker’s allowance can do without starting to lose more than he or she is gaining. That is a problem.

I have always believed that we should make the working family payment as attractive as possible such that very early in a person's move into employment he or she would move out of the Xs and Os and the whole lot and go onto the working family payment.

This is not as radical a suggestion as it will sound but I cannot understand why the concept of the working family payment does not apply to single people, albeit with a lower threshold. Why is it not possible for those in low-paid employment, such as part-time employment and so on, to transition onto a supplementary income rather than having to stay on the jobseeker’s allowance system, or the dole, as it was formerly known? These are simple changes. Every year, there should be incremental improvements and changes. Any time we have done the big bang solution, there have been unintended consequences, but when it is done incrementally, there is very little risk. As I stated, the figures are going the Department’s way anyway.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy for his comments on the humane way in which the Department's staff deal with people. That is much appreciated. There are well over 6,000 people working at the Department and they do their best to help people. As Deputies, we know that from our experiences in our constituency offices. The Deputy is suggesting that people be encouraged into the RSS. All present are aware there are great schemes there and a lot of work. The one thing we do not want to do is to penalise work. I certainly do not want to do that. That is why the working family payment is so important. We are looking at pay-related benefit, as the Deputy is aware, and there is a straw man proposal in that regard. In the context of that proposal, we are looking at the working family payment and what we can do to make it better. I want to support people who go out to work in the morning. We all want to make sure they are rewarded for their efforts. That is in the straw man proposal.

I note the Deputy’s comments on the social welfare budget from 2012 until now. Thankfully, there are far more people at work now than there were then. It is fair to say that social welfare expenditure is highly cyclical and very much linked to the performance of the economy. That is why when things are good we need to look at how we can make provision in the Social Insurance Fund for the winds or downturns that we all know will inevitably come.

As I stated, the review of the means test will be comprehensive. I will be happy to hear the views of the committee on it. We are all on the same page in terms of trying to help people.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister. It is on our work programme to respond to her in that regard.

Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of information that might be of use and interest, we are reviewing the RSS. We will start that process very soon. We will look at all suggestions to retain people on it, but also to bring others onto it.

I take Deputy Ó Cuív's suggestion about how it was previously done. That can be looked at. I suspect that it is one of the more expensive suggestions and there will be questions around how we budget for it but we are open to suggestions. Regarding the background pattern in terms of the drop from €108 million to €59 million, I suspect the number of small farms has decreased dramatically during that time. It is hard to push against but we are open to any and all suggestions to increase participation in the RSS.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a drop and they are reaching pension age but the main cause in 2012 was the downturn. When a lot of people became unemployed, they went on farm assist rather than jobseeker's allowance. Thankfully, many of those are back working. That is the main driver. If you went back to 2008, you would find a much lower figure than for 2012.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does any other member want to come in on chapter 4? I know Deputy Ó Cuív and the Minister of State have jumped ahead.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the review of the RSS. I presume there will be widespread consultation on it because that would be really important. It is the people on the ground who are well placed when it comes to a review of the scheme.

Could the Minister provide us with an update on the ongoing issues involving the pay and conditions of CE supervisors and assistant supervisors? This has been a significant issue across the board.

It is also important to remember Tús. It is a one-year scheme. I ask the Minister to look at extending that. I do not see the benefit of having someone on a scheme for a year. Many participants on the scheme will tell you that it is not long enough. I do not see the benefit of putting them back on jobseeker's allowance instead of it being a two-year scheme. They do not always go back on jobseeker's allowance but that is what participants will tell you about the length of that scheme.

Regarding the end of local employment services and job clubs, are there any plans for any contracted services or tenders for any other schemes for this year or any planned changes? Regarding the end of JobPath, aside from the approximately 20,000 people who went on it at the start of 2022 and remain on it, are there plans to review that scheme, its benefits and how it has worked? From the figures I have from the end of December, it looks like it has a success rate of 8.7% if you take out the 20,000 who are still engaged. Given the hundreds of millions of taxpayers' money spent, I do not think it has been a success and a review of it is really important.

Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I acknowledge the important role played by CE supervisors and assistant supervisors all around the country. They are probably one of the most important sets of community workers we have. They are very embedded, really know what is happening on the ground and not only oversee the provision of key services but offer opportunities to people who would not otherwise have them to enable them to make a connection with the labour market. Their work has been exceptional for many years. I am glad to say the Government made a decision in April to sanction the Department to enter negotiations with CE supervisors and representative unions. The first conciliation meeting is tomorrow at the Workplace Relations Commission. I will leave it at that. I am glad that the process has started. It is important that it has started. We also want to talk about Tús, RSS and jobs initiative supervisors at tomorrow's meeting. It is important that if we do this, we do it in the round and include-----

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is very welcome all round.

Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is important that we do not do it in bits and pieces but do it in a holistic way. The point about Tús has been made a number of times. There are no live plans to do that. We carefully monitor CE, Tús and RSS figures on a monthly basis to see if there are things we can do. Quite a few changes have been made over the past year and six months. The thinking is still that if you are finished Tús and someone wants to keep someone on, there is the CE option. CE has the training option while Tús does not. As has been the case over the past two years, we keep our options open in terms of making adjustments to schemes so that we can serve people as best we can.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the Minister wish to add anything?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Regarding public employment services, the contracts for JobPath provided for a two-phase approach that entailed client referrals for a number of years followed immediately by a run-off period of two years to facilitate existing clients to complete their engagement with the service. The extension provision in JobPath contracts was agreed and activated in August 2019 with the result that phase 1 of the contract was extended until the end of 2020. In the context of Covid and related restrictions, in order to ensure the continuing provision of public employment services during the pandemic, the Department extended the contracts for new referrals in 2021 with the final referrals to the JobPath service ceasing on 30 June 2022. Phase 2 commenced on 1 July 2022 and is scheduled to be completed by June 2024. No new clients will be referred to the service during this period. The purpose of the run-off period is to ensure that clients will receive the same service and support, including employment advice and other supports to address barriers to employment, education and training interventions and employment support. Approximately 32,106 clients are engaged with JobPath. A new contract went out so we have a very extensive suite of employment services across the country. That process is finished and is well bedded in.

Employment services must be in place because you never know when you need to ramp them up and provide people with support be it guidance or helping them to get into another job. That support is there and is ready to go if needed but it is important that it is kept there. We have been very fortunate. We thought we would need a lot more post pandemic but the economy bounced back very quickly and we know where we are in terms of a tight labour market. It is important that the service is available to people so that if they lose their jobs, and we heard of potential job losses this morning at another big digital company, we can step in and provide them with the support they need to look for other jobs.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will there be a review of JobPath because €322 million has been spent on it? If we take the figures just given by the Minister, 32,000 people are still active on it. That means that 318,488 people completed the programme and of that figure, 29,000 have a job that lasted a year. Those 318,488 people have finished, of which 29,000 have a job, so you are looking at a success rate of about 9% for €322 million of taxpayers' money. Surely that cannot be considered a success.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have had this debate before. We are dealing with those people who are most removed from the labour market. They get a lot of support. It is about engagement with them. We always review our schemes to see whether there are learnings from them. There are no plans at the minute to do that. I am more focused on making sure the new system beds in well. The bottom line is that the people who need this support get it when they need it. The total number of JobPath engagements to date is over 351,000, giving a total cost per client engagement of €925 and delivering 12 months of engagement with employment services. Our view is that this provides value for money for taxpayers.

Support has been given and it has represented good value. However, of course, like everything else, we will have a look at it.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know Deputy Ó Cuív wants to come in, but I have one question for the Minister. There was a plan under her predecessor, former Minister, Senator Regina Doherty, to look at the cohort of people on disability payments to see how we could engage with them and get them involved in employment and workplace participation.

The Minister spoke about the Social Insurance Fund and how it is far more positive today than had been projected. The reason for that is we have seen a dramatic increase in workforce participation levels. It went up by a phenomenal 2%. None of the economists ever projected that could be done over a two-year period. Much of that was down to the flexibility provided by remote and online working. Of all cohorts within the workforce the people on these payments are those who could disproportionately benefit from that . There is absolutely no doubt about that.

However, the sad reality is that they are the furthest away from employment. Many of them have huge skills deficits, even in terms of engaging with technology, because they have been on the margins of society up to now. We are trying to increase workforce participation rates and engaging with the most disadvantaged people within our community. As we know, when there is a working wage coming into a household, even a part-time one, it lifts that family out of poverty but also provides for a greater opportunity for the next generation to actively participate in the workforce. In the context of all of those aspects, is there intention now to revisit the plan of the former Minister, Senator Doherty, and look again at those people who are on illness and disability payments to see how we can assist them even in partly contributing to the economy?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I absolutely agree with the Chair that there is a cohort of people who have disabilities, which could be mild, and with a bit of extra help, there is no reason why they cannot take up employment and contribute - especially as we have a tight labour market at the minute. I made some changes in the budget so that a person could earn more. To try to support them, we increased the limit of what a person could earn on the disability payment and still work.

We are currently finalising a review of the reasonable accommodation fund. It was a commitment in the comprehensive employment strategy. The review is to see how to improve the effectiveness of grants and identify gaps in provision. It aims to improve the application and payment processes. That review will be published in quarter 1 of this year and it will be informed by the public consultation that took place last year. An additional €1 million in funding was announced in budget 2023 to support the recommendations from this review. We also have the employability service, which particularly targets people with disabilities and helps them get back into the workforce.

I was talking to somebody more than a year ago, and it is amazing when there is an advocate working for the employee and the employer. There are some things that get in the way and employees do not have the confidence to say to their employer that they need an hour off in the morning for a particular appointment. The employers did not know why they were not turning up. Then, when they got to the bottom of it, it could all be sorted. We need to give that support for those who have many challenges coming back into the workforce.

We have the ability programme as well, which is funded through the Dormant Accounts Fund. We have continued to fund it even though it was a special EU programme. We continued to fund it ourselves. They are doing good work in getting people back to work.

I absolutely agree with the Chair. We will have a particular focus on it. We have the cost of disability report and we are looking at how we can support people with the extra costs that they incur because of the disability. However, again, it is usually commensurate with the disability. Those who are severely disabled need more support rather than those that are mild. We will be working on that this year with that report. It is currently with the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, who is chairing that committee. We need a whole-of-government approach because it is not just about the payment, it is also about transport and the health services. There is a whole plethora of other things involved. It is very much on my radar. There are people who want to contribute and can make a valuable contribution. With a bit of extra help, we can get them back into the workforce. I am happy to work with the committee on that as well.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Returning to Tús and the RSS, the interesting thing about the RSS is that the expenditure in it - I think it was 2016 when the rules were changed - was €42.39 million and it has only gone up €51 million. It is a very cheap scheme. The rules changed in an interesting way. Those who were there prior to 2016 could continue to get the full payment. Therefore, the Government is already paying for the majority of the participants at the way I would like it to be for everybody; it is only new participants who are getting different payments.

Perhaps the Minister could check a few statistics for me. Can the Minister get the number of participants who did and did not have dependent adults or children up to 2016? Since 2016, the new rule came in. Can the Minister check whether it is the same proportion of people that have or do not have dependants? I will explain why I am asking the question. It is only fair if I am asking the Minister to go to the bother of getting the information that she understands why. The reason is that up until 2016, people with a farm income still got the full payment going for the job - the full personal allowance, adult dependant and child dependant. After that, it changed. However, it did not change for a single applicant; they get the full basic rate anyway. It was as attractive before and after for the single adult going on the scheme. It was those with dependants – either adults or children – who found out that the only bonus for 19.5 hours a week work was the €20-odd top-up. That is what they are getting for 19.5 hours work a week. By definition, they were all farmers or fishers. Of course, many of those with dependants said, “Well I’m not working for €1 an hour. Good luck.” Am I correct that some people are being put off because of dependants, but that the rate of single adults going onto it has stayed the same because they get the full rate anyway? Even if a person was only getting €2 farm assist and single, they get the €220-odd payment. However, if people had €100 means on their farm and went on and had a dependent adult or whatever, they take the €100 off them. I would be interested to get that information. I think the Minister will find that there is a bit of a thing there.

Turning to Tús, I ask the Minister to get us another piece of information. Tús is the cheapie version of community employment, CE, with two differences. They spend less time in training, that is, no time other than in health and safety training. They are working all the time, which means better productivity in work terms. In addition, there is not the cost and time of training.

Can the Minister get us the figures of the difference between the cost for a Tús participant and a CE scheme participant? We should not keep extending the amount of time people can stay in CE schemes. There is only so much training people can get that will change their lives. One of the rationales behind Tús was that when people had done three or four years in the CE scheme and had got all the training they were going to get, they could continue to work if they did not get other gainful employment. It was far cheaper. I think the Minister will find that is cheaper per participant, as it should be, because there are no training costs. The Minister might find out what the difference is. That does not take into account the fact that under the CE scheme, there is less productivity because the participants are involved in training, which is fantastic. The first port of call should always be to train people into full-time, permanent employment. However, many people who are on these schemes will not succeed in getting to that position. The next port of call is to find jobs for people for as long as they need it.

I always like to find reasons. For some reason, the officials in the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform do not see things that way. They do not understand the idea that not everybody is employable in commercial employment. They may be employable in community jobs and whatever else and have quite an output. However, they would not be commercially employable. Anyone who ever commercially employed people and was involved in community schemes knows the difference. Has the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform given an explanation as to why they were so Scrooge-like from day one with Tús? I agree with the Chair. I do not know if people understand the well-being issue. Having something gainful to do and a little extra income in the house at the bottom end is transformative.

I was at a funeral in Westport a week ago. A guy came straight across the church to me and said-----

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is going to announce his candidacy for Europe.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is absolutely so. That man told me he was from Cavan and that I changed his life. I looked at him. He said I changed his life when I set up the rural social scheme because it gave him something to get up for in the morning. He said that changed his whole personal well-being. Is that not enough for any government?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hope that man says the same when he sees me. He is from Cavan.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister is exactly right. I should have told that man to talk to the Minister.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister might help the Deputy when he goes banging on the doors in the area.

Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will give responses but I will not have answers to all of the Deputy's question, as I think he recognises. I have a table of statistics relating to the rural social scheme in front of me. They relate to the numbers availing of the scheme and qualified adults. I am not going to try to analyse it on the spot. The piece of analysis the Deputy is asking for makes sense in the context of the review. We will do that.

The Deputy asked about the cost difference for participants in the Tús and CE schemes. We can find out. Like the Deputy, I would assume that Tús is cheaper because there is no training element. The CE scheme is also more optional, which makes a difference. The CE scheme can also last longer.

The Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform has a job to do. It does it fairly consistently. I will say that we get the amount of places for which we look. We have vacancies on the Tús and CE schemes. The rural social scheme is demand-led. The Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform is not limiting access to the CE scheme at the moment. We have the budget that we need for all those programmes.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry to pick up on something the Minister of State has said. Yesterday, I received a phone call from somebody who qualified for and wanted to get onto the RSS. That person was told there was a six-month waiting list.

Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would like to look into that case. We are crying out for people on the rural social scheme.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have submitted a parliamentary question on the issue.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy might provide the Minister of State with the information on that case and he can look into it. Did the Minister wish to add anything?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As the Minister of State has alluded to, we have, to be fair, made significant improvements to the CE schemes in recent years. We have got co-operation from the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to do that. People forget that it is not only a job activation scheme. CE schemes are also providing good supports and social services to the community. It is a matter of striking a balance between job activation and services in the community. The Minister of State and I have put a lot of time into trying to improve the scheme. We have a stakeholders forum. We listen to the members of the forum and if we can make changes, we do so. We have made a lot of good, positive changes. We will keep at it. That is what we are here to do.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister. We will move to chapter 5, which relates to illness, disability and carers.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

More and more people are working and, therefore, making social welfare contributions. I was looking at some figures. The number of recipients of disability allowance, which is a means-tested, non-benefit payment, has risen from 101,000 to 155,000 since 2012. The number of people on invalidity pensions has only risen from 50,000 to 57,000. I would have expected it to be the other way round. It is the other way round in most other schemes, because more and more people have contributions. The contribution requirement for an invalidity pension is not that difficult to satisfy. Numbers in the means-tested fund are going down while the numbers in other are going up. What seems to be happening is that people have the requisite contribution record, apply for an invalidity pension and are ruled out under the terms of the scheme and told that they qualify for disability allowance. One would have thought that one of those schemes would be the means-tested version of the other.

I am going to read out some requirements now and we can have a spot-the-difference competition. They are not very long. To qualify for disability allowance, one must have an injury, disease or physical or mental disability that has continued for at least one year or is expected to continue for at least one year; or be substantially restricted because of disability from doing work that would be suitable for a person of one's age, experience and qualifications. Those are the requirements to qualify for disability allowance. Remember those precise terms.

To meet the medical rules for an invalidity pension, one must have been incapable of work for at least 12 months and be likely to be incapable of work for at least another 12 months. A person may have been getting illness benefit or disability allowance during that time. Most people would be getting illness benefit. The alternative is that one must be permanently incapable of working. In certain cases of very serious illness or disability, an applicant may be able to transfer directly, but we will ignore that.

There is a subtle difference between those requirements. It is esoteric. For the disability allowance, the requirements mean that a person would have to be restricted from doing work that would be suitable for a person of his or her age, experience and qualifications. Let us consider people who did manual work throughout their lives. As long as they can show they cannot do manual jobs, they are not expected to get a job as a university professor of atomic physics. By contrast, people applying for an invalidity pension - and this is being applied more and more rigidly - have no such get-out-of-jail free card. They are being told that they could be trained for an office job or be trained to be a professor or something else. Looking at the figures, many people who have the contribution record to make them eligible for an invalidity pension are being put onto the disability allowance. The first problem with that relates to the means test. If you have a spouse or partner, you are in trouble.

Second, you are not given an automatic social welfare contribution whereby, if you are on invalidity pension, you get a credit every week. As for the illness qualification for both schemes, I do not mind about the first year. That is easy because anybody on invalidity pension will have done a year on illness benefit anyway.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On that, before the Minister responds, we are all now getting these responses far more frequently, and the individual is then excluded from getting the partial capacity payment. That comes back to the point I made about allowing people with a disability back into the workforce. They are locked out of the ability to do that without having an invalidity pension. Maybe the Minister could respond to the question Deputy Ó Cuív raised.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Roadmap for Social Inclusion 2020-2025 includes a commitment to develop and consult on a straw man proposal for the restructuring of long-term disability payments. That is to simplify the system and to take account of the concerns expressed in the Make Work Pay report and the issues Members are raising today. The cost of disability research report was published by my Department in December 2021 and is feeding into preparation of the straw man reform proposals. Work on that straw man is at an advanced stage. Those are the things we are looking at. I intend to carry out a wider consultation process with all the stakeholders and advocacy groups following publication. We will take into account the different issues Members have raised here.

I take Deputy Ó Cuív's point that this gets a bit complicated. The only thing is that half the people on domiciliary care allowance go onto disability allowance and then some do not have an employment record, so there are other things to look at as well.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I accept that, but the number of people going from domiciliary care allowance to disability allowance, and that is another debate - a big one - for another day, should not have increased by what we are figuring when the others would have been going the other way. I am definitely counting more and more cases in which the Department says the applicants should go onto disability allowance but then they get caught because they have partners or spouses - that is another day's work - but no invalidity pension. It did not happen before. My experience of the schemes until the past year or two was that they worked the same way, de facto if not de jure.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is my experience too. We are now coming across cases in which people are denied invalidity pension which historically would have been approved by the Department but now it is coming back with this clause that they could do some other work - I have one such case on my desk as we speak - which was not the case until relatively recently.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fair enough. We will look at that. We want to look at it when we look at the pension reforms too. We need to look at how we can support people who are no longer physically fit to work because of the very nature of their jobs. How do we deal with somebody on a building site - we have used this example before - who has a long history of contributions but is not the right age? It is all in that area. As I said, the straw man is there and we will look at it in the context of the pension reform as well.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hope there will be a bit of steel in the straw man when the Minister is finished.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy need not worry; I will put steel in it. I have just received a note. I will give the committee the bit of information on it. Any proposals for change to partial capacity benefit will be considered also in the wider straw man proposals. We are happy to look at these things when we go through all this. I cannot promise we will be able to solve them all but we will certainly take a look. If some tweaking needs to be done to make this better, members know I am always happy to do that.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

May I ask about long Covid? As the Minister will know, I have raised this issue with her on a number of occasions. Prior to Christmas she gave a commitment to explore the issue of defining long Covid as an occupational illness for front-line workers. The Minister might update the committee on the progress she has made on that, particularly in the context of both the Social Welfare Bill and the motion unanimously adopted by the Dáil before Christmas.

I compliment the Department on the statistics it has been providing, which are the only authoritative statistics on long Covid provided by the State. That relates to individuals who, unfortunately, contracted Covid, availed of the enhanced illness benefit and have been subsequently unable to return to work. I know this is a small cohort of the overall number of people with long Covid, but the Department is providing us with the only official statistics in this country, which, bizarrely, are not available from the Department of Health. Based on those figures the Department furnished to me prior to Christmas, we are looking at 35% of people who were in receipt of enhanced illness benefit and who were subsequently in receipt of illness benefit or disability allowance, amounting to 12 weeks after the initial Covid infection, but who continued in receipt of that payment for up to six months. We are talking about 1,475 people up to Christmas who have continued to receive that, which is a very significant percentage of people. If that is reflected across the population in terms of the number of people who contracted Covid, we are talking about very substantial numbers of people who are not able to participate in the workforce. It is an issue the Department needs to look at in terms of the impact it is having on our overall levels of disability and of workplace participation.

In that context, the emerging medical evidence relating to people who have been diagnosed as having the conditions associated with long Covid is that they should make phased progress in terms of activity and a phased return to work. The difficulty is that, under either illness benefit or disability allowance, there is no mechanism for them to do that. Therefore, the emerging medical evidence is that they should make a phased return to work, but the flexibility is not there within the disablement schemes at present to facilitate that. In light of the medical evidence emerging in this area, will the Minister review this in the context of people with this condition? It comes back to the broader issue of recognising it as an occupational illness, which could help to overcome some of the legalities we are talking about in respect of allowing this phased return to work.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

After 12 months on illness benefit, I understand a person can go to partial capacity benefit and then work unrestricted, so that could in some way facilitate the phased return to work. To give an update on where we are, under the occupational injuries benefit scheme, my Department provides supports to those who contract an occupational disease at work. At the moment, Covid-19 does not constitute a prescribed disease or illness. We know that. The European Commission officially added Covid-19 to its list of recommended occupational illnesses on 28 November. It is up to the individual member state to decide whether to recognise Covid-19 as an occupational disease. Therefore, I have written to the Minister for Health and the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment asking them for their views, which will help to inform the next steps. That is where the matter is at the moment. It will be up to them to decide who goes on this list or to give me a recommendation as to who should be on the occupational injuries benefit scheme.

I am waiting for a response back from both Departments. If the Chairman wants to raise it with them, that would be good.

The Department does not retain data on the number of people in receipt of illness benefit with a diagnosis of long Covid but there are currently 850 people in receipt of illness benefit as a result of a Covid-19 diagnosis. Those are the figures I have. I wanted to give the Chairman those.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those figures are not accurate based on the figures that have been provided to me. Before Christmas, we had 1,475 who were in receipt of illness benefit for at least three months after they had transitioned from enhanced illness benefit. Those figures are way short of the figures that have been provided to me in parliamentary questions. The Minister might come back to the committee with those figures.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will get an up-to-date figure. There is no problem in doing so.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are obviously talking about apples and oranges in this context. I do not want the Minister to be in a position where she would have inadvertently misled the committee.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not mean to do that.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know that, but those figures are not accurate.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will come back to the committee with the statistics.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for moving on recognising this as an occupational illness. The Minister has to await the responses from the two Departments but she has moved on it and I recognise that.

My final question comes back to the comment the Minister made. I presume enhanced illness benefit is included in the illness benefit calculation. Someone who has, between enhanced illness benefit and illness benefit, made a claim for at least 12 months can then apply for partial capacity to return to work. At present, there are appalling waiting lists trying to access long Covid clinics but we are told the intention is to reduce these. If people are able to make a recovery, they should not be locked out of returning to work for 12 months. There needs to be flexibility in relation to this particular illness where they can because the evidence is only emerging about this. The reality is that in all probability these people will not be fit to hold down full-time employment within 12 months, but if they can work even half a day a week or a couple of hours a day and if it helps their recovery and allows them to get back into the workforce much more quickly, we need to be able to facilitate it. The difficulty is the rigidity of illness benefit. Partial capacity at present does not take into account the emerging medical treatment for long Covid. We should not be delaying someone's treatment because he or she would be locked out of social welfare as a result. Will the Minister and her officials look at this particular impediment that is now locking people out of making what would be hoped would be a full recovery post Covid.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To come back on the straw man in relation to disability and those additional payments that have been discussed, has the Minister any timeline for that work and when she hopes to have it completed? Are we looking towards the next budget or after it? Particularly when it comes to the cost of disability and the introduction of such a payment, it would be helpful to know what kind of timeline we are working towards. That has been sought for many years. People will be looking at whether it will be in for the budget.

On family carers, we all welcomed the Minister's commitment when we discussed the Social Welfare Bill last year that she would look at the means test for carer's allowance - some type of review. That was very welcome. Last year we had family carers before this committee giving their first-hand experience and the real difficulties they faced in accessing carer's allowance because of the means test. It is important that is looked it. There are many carers providing intensive care at home and they are not able to access that support, especially where a partner or husband is working and the income has a major impact on the means test.

I would appreciate it if the Minister could give us an update on the pension solution for family carers because, every year, carers are ceasing that role and they are not able to access a full State pension. That has been a problem for a long time. An update on that would be welcome also.

An issue I need to raise again and which I have raised with the Minister on many occasions is the case of Brendan Bjorn and his mother, Ms Tracy McGinnis. I believe it will cost very little to ensure that, where a young adult is in receipt of disability allowance, the allowance would not cease immediately on his or her death, even if only in cases where a parent is caring for him or her at home, so that there is not that cliff edge. It exists for domiciliary care allowance, DCA. That continues to be paid up to 12 weeks after the death of the child. I would ask for a little compassion in this case. The Minister has engaged with Ms McGinnis and there was an issue immediately after Brendan's death that was dealt with immediately. All of that is welcome. Perhaps the Minister could look at the sums, even from that hardline approach of what it would cost in the first instance, because I believe it would be very small, especially in the case of young adults or adults who are at home with parents and who are in receipt of the disability allowance, so that on their death there would not be that cliff edge and that it would be the same as is the case for DCA.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As the Deputy will be aware, DCA finishes at age 16 and then, as Deputy Ó Cuív has said, many people move onto disability allowance. By the way, Ms Tracy McGinnis is now an Irish citizen. She got her citizenship late last year and I was delighted to see that.

I do not want to talk about specific cases. I will put it this way. People who have children on the disability allowance are often carers themselves. If they are receiving the carer's payment, they will get that paid for the extra 12 weeks if the person they are caring for has passed away. When a person is receiving the disability payment in his or her own right, anybody who collects that money for him or her is deemed an agent. What we would be doing then would be paying the agent for another 12 weeks following the demise of the recipient of the payment. We can look at it. We always look at these issues. It could have further far-reaching unintended consequences, if the Deputy knows what I mean. I am happy to look at it.

Going back to the issue of carers, the payment for carers was something that was brought up with me on many occasions at this committee. The Chairman, Deputy Kerrane and others brought it up on a number of occasions. Everybody wanted this changed and I changed it. I changed the means test for the carer's allowance the year before last and that was welcomed.

The pension issue is being dealt with by us now. A person who is a long-term carer caring for more than 20 years will get credits. However, we have to do a bit of work on that because we have to make sure people were caring. We have the carer's allowance information but there are people who were not getting carer's allowance of any kind because they did not qualify for it. We have to find out where they are and we have to try to develop a register. We will work on that with the carer organisations, such as family carers.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I presume the carer's support grant-----

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It will cover it as well.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It would cover it as well.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There still could be ones who do not get either.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Or historically would not.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a good bit of work to do on that so that we can get into the detail. The intention is that people who genuinely cared for somebody for more than 20 years, which is a long time, who gave up work and who were not able to work because of that will get credits for that so that they will be able to have their entitlements to the contributory pension. That is the plan. When that is added to the other ten years a person gets for family caring, there is a good bit of work there. We are working on that.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Minister confirm whether the Department is looking at the means test for carer's allowance?

Will that be done? We all agree there is an issue in relation to the means test and it has been raised by the organisations many times.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It will be part of the wider review but I have changed it. The carer's allowance is one of the most generous means tests in the system and I have increased it to more than €750 for the singles. It has gone up to €350 per week for single carers and from €665 to €750 for carers with a spouse or partner. The capital disregard was increased from €20,000 to €50,000. Those were the first changes in 14 years but we will look at it as part of the review of all the means-tested systems. Deputy Kerrane mentioned the straw man proposal we are looking at in terms of disability. We hope to publish it late in quarter 1 and it will then go out for consultation. We want the different stakeholders and groups to look at this and give feedback on it. I do not want to rush it but the straw man will be published late in quarter 1 and we are going through it ourselves at the minute to cover off as many things as we can and we will then put it out for consultation.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister. Before we move on to the second half of the social welfare programme, I remind Deputies that we have one hour and 20 minutes left in this session. They may wish to be conscious that there is another Vote to be considered. Chapter 6 is the children's programme. Do members have any questions on the children's programme? No. Chapter 7 is supplementary payments, agencies and miscellaneous services. Deputy Kerrane has a question.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will be very brief. I welcome the changes that have been made to the fuel allowance for the over-70s. They are really positive and will help an awful lot of people. As regards the processing, a few people who had their applications in have not yet heard anything. I appreciate that many applications have been made and that everyone will get it where they are supposed to get it; that is not an issue. Could the Minister state where the applications are at as regards processing times at the moment and how many people have been awarded the fuel allowance for the over-70s out of the number of applications that have been received?

I will not get into the free travel scheme. Everyone knows what the issue is. It has been raised before. The Minister previously committed to look at the question of access to the free travel scheme for people with epilepsy. Could she give any update on that? I appreciate it is complex because there are lots of other conditions people have. This is a condition in which a person cannot drive. That is the problem here.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That issue is on the agenda of this committee. We have written to the Minister in relation to epilepsy.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am very aware of the issue of epilepsy. We are looking at it. I take the points that were made. I have a close family friend who has epilepsy and cannot drive. It is not easy. We are looking at that and I am happy to engage with the committee on it.

On the fuel allowance, I was delighted to get the agreement for the over-70s and the increase in the means test. As we all know, when one gets older, one gets colder. I do not want old people to be afraid to turn on the heating, so this has been very welcome. We all saw the marginal cases where a person was €2 or €3 over and could not get the fuel allowance. It is expected that up to 64,000 new households will qualify for the fuel allowance. We have also increased the limits for those under the age of 70. At the end of December, there were 394,000 fuel allowance recipients. All of the chat around the fuel allowance paid off because we had around 370,000 recipients previously, but this had increased to 394,000 by the end of December. That is good news. By the end of December, more than 3,200 new applications had been received through the online service. Up to the end of December, more than 43,000 new paper applications had been received by the pensions unit, which is an increase of 130% compared to 2021. Many people are getting their applications in at the minute and we are processing them as quickly as we can. There is an online application but a lot of people want a paper-based application. We are getting through them. When the fuel allowance application is received, it will be backdated to 1 January. It will take us a wee while to work through them all as there is a huge volume of stuff coming in at the minute. Those are the most recent figures I have, if that is okay. Deputies can rest assured that we want to get them churned out. Those who have not received it should not worry because when they do get it, it will be backdated to 1 January.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I accept that the Department will get a deluge of applications and that there will be a spike. I would like to mention a case I came across. I think these cases should be fast-tracked on the inner lane. Following the death of a man who was in receipt of the fuel allowance, his wife went for the widow's pension. They were living as a couple. Obviously she has to confirm she is now living alone. To get that allowance reinstated, she should not have to go through all the hoops with the rest of the applications.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If there is any particular case Deputy Ó Cuív wants to give me a note about, I will look at it.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have submitted a parliamentary question.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay, I will follow it up.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

For those kinds of bereavement cases-----

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

After his death-----

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----there should be a way of pulling them out as they are fairly straightforward.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If Deputy Ó Cuív gives me the details of the case, I will be happy to follow up on it because in cases like that we want to help people.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister. Chapter 8 is the Social Insurance Fund. I know the Minister has spoken about that. We would like to see a copy of the actuarial report when it is complete because I know it is an issue the committee has a huge interest in. Are there any other questions on the Social Insurance Fund?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to see the actuarial report and the report from 2017 versus what happened.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will be looking at that myself.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That will be another one for the fiction library. I will mention one thing about all of this. The Covid-19 pandemic and the 2008-10 downturn are examples of periods of time when something hit us, out of the blue, and it was very negative. The grey sky suddenly turned sunny - again, out of the blue - and the whole thing turned on its head very quickly. We are getting really fast turnarounds now. It would be interesting to start in 2000 and see how the Social Insurance Fund looked in the good times and the bad times - the boom times and the not-so-boom times - over the last 20 years. There is no point going back further than that as the economy was totally different. In more modern times, we have to see how it levelled off over the longer period and how much shorter the downturn was.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will leave that with the Minister.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Page 66 of the briefing shows us that-----

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not get to read all of the briefing.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would not blame the Deputy. There is a lot of stuff there. On page 66 of the briefing, there is an outline that goes back to 2007. It is very interesting to see. The surplus can turn around very quickly. We will publish the report I get. It has to go to the Government and then I will send it to the committee. Is that all right?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it still paying?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is doing well now but I am told that if one looks back over the last 15 years it shows more red figures than black ones, outlining the fact that the Social Insurance Fund has been in deficit for far longer than it has been in surplus. In fact the Exchequer has supported the fund to the tune of more than €10 billion since 2007. That is why it is critical to keep it under close review.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it €10 billion?

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is €10 billion.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes but we must include the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, and all of that.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Department of expenditure must have put that together because it included two downturns and only one upturn.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will go back a bit further.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am thinking that we should include the boom time between 2000 and 2007.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In 2008, it started to go down until 2010, 2011, 2012 or 2013. Then it started to pick up again until we hit Covid-19. Some of the Covid-19 payments came out of-----

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, the PUP did.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We hit Covid-19 and now we have the boom time again. I think that leaving out the 2000-07 period skews it a bit. The other interesting thing was that the report of the Commission on Pensions recommended that the Exchequer should top up the Social Insurance Fund structurally, even if we went for a pension age of 68. There is very little difference between 66 and 68 in reality.

It is interesting that the commission, even at that stage, was factoring in that there would be a State supplement of the contributory system in the country. I will pull out this page.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are there any questions on chapter 9, which concerns the administration programme? No. Chapter 10 is performance budgeting. This is part of our work programme for this year and we hope to engage directly with the Department on it. The Department is underselling itself with how it presents the performance budgeting. With engagement with the committee, we could develop a far more effective performance budgeting mechanism that clearly reflects the workload that is going on within the Department, but also provides the Oireachtas with the type of information we need to monitor it. The way we are measuring could be altered. This would benefit the Department, with regard to its output, and would also be a far more effective tool for Members of the Oireachtas to monitor it.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would like to return to the Social Insurance Fund. I found some statistics on page 66. In 2007, there was a surplus in the fund of €3 billion, most of which would have been there between 2000 and 2007. Now there is a surplus in the fund of €5 billion. That is another €2 billion. Of the €10 billion State subvention, there is €5 billion in the kitty. The net State requirement from the Exchequer over 20 years, if we go back to 2000, was really only €5 billion. It is a very small amount over 20 years.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The committee is happy to engage with the Deputy on performance budgeting.

I will give one answer for the record. I am sorry for not doing so earlier. I know Deputy Ó Cathasaigh asked me about the working family payment budget change. It cost €16.8 million. There are existing and new customers. Some 47,000 families are now benefiting from the working family payment. I wish to put it on the record.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Do members have any final questions?

Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I asked how many people can benefit from the change.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Some 47,000 families benefit from the change I made in the budget.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister and the Minister of State.