Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail) | Oireachtas source

The Minister will know that time and again I have talked about means testing of non-contributory pensions and dependent adults. I looked at some figures that will show the Minister there is room for dealing with this issue with generosity. Between 2012 and 2021, which were the most recent statistics I could get, expenditure on the non-contributory pension went up by only 12%. In the same period, expenditure on the contributory pension went up by 63%. I think the Minister will accept that more and more people have made contributions. Furthermore, the number of qualified adults on contributory pensions decreased from 67,000 to 54,000 between 2012 and 2021. This indicates that the non-contributory or dependent adult side is not one of these expenditure lines where the numbers are running out of control. The challenge is on the contributory side, although people have their entitlements in that regard and we have had good discussions on that. It is interesting to note, for example, that the non-contributory pension numbers between 2012 and 2021 have decreased from 96,000 to 95,000 people.

What do I find strange? Will the Minister explain why, if somebody has a job, is on a non-contributory pension and earns his or her money through the PAYE system, that person can earn up to €200 per week which is not means tested? On the other hand, if that person has the same work but is self-employed, he or she can earn €30 a week but anything more, including savings, is means tested. Will the Minister explain the rationale for that rather bizarre, archaic and arcane arrangement? She will know what I have been saying to her for a long time about the calculation of savings where, again and again, I encounter people who have done what they were told to do in respect of savings. If there was one earner, which happened in many families that are now coming to pension age - the Minister and I both know that was the pattern - the reality was that in good arrangements there were joint accounts in most houses. In other words, if main income earners said that since they were earning the income and their partners were rearing the family, what those people earned was their partners' money as much as theirs and it was put into joint accounts. Such people get severely penalised for having joint savings.

I have come across an extraordinary case where a farmer had land but also worked. This situation is not unique and people are again getting caught. About three or four years before he came to pension age, on advice, the farm was put into joint names. He had a good hill farm. His wife never had her name on the deeds until then. She was assessed on half the value of the farm, which amounts to more than €100 a week, and suddenly she had no dependent adult allowance. In her case, the amount was over what would allow her to qualify for any adult dependent allowance. Such people are just getting tripped up left, right and centre. We will come to disability allowance later on.

As I said, this is not a burgeoning budget head. It will go down over time. Will the Minister not now move and do something about it? It will save her Department the embarrassment of these bizarre situations.