Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 19 January 2023
Public Accounts Committee
Financial Statements 2020: Housing Agency
Financial Statements 2021: Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority
Chapter 7: Housing Agency Revolving Acquisition Fund
Section 2 Report – Unauthorised Release of Funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
9:30 am
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome everyone to the meeting. Happy New Year to one and all, guests and members.
On behalf of the committee, I congratulate Deputy Carroll MacNeill on her appointment as Minister of State at the Department of Finance. It is a very important role. I acknowledge her contribution to this committee and I wish her well in that new role. Hopefully, we will have a replacement soon. We do not have one yet, but I would say we will have one in the next week or two.
If attending from within the committee room, I ask members and all in attendance to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Parliament.
The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by Ms Paula O’Connor, deputy director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.
This morning, we are engaging with officials from the Housing Agency and the Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority to examine the following: financial statements 2020 – Housing Agency; financial statements 2021 – Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority; the report of the accounts of public services 2021; and chapter 7 - the Housing Agency revolving acquisition fund.
We are joined by the following officials from the Housing Agency: Mr. Bob Jordan, chief executive; Mr. Jim Baneham, director of delivery and innovation; and Ms Claire Feeney, director of services and inclusion. We are also joined by the following officials from the Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority: Ms Susanna Lyons, chief executive officer; Mr. Steven Sheridan, head of performance and communications; and Ms Paula Nyland, head of finance and corporate services. We are also joined by officials from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Mr. Feargal Ó Coigligh and Mr. Roger Harrington, principal officer. You are all very welcome.
I remind all those in attendance to have their mobile phones switched off or on silent mode.
Members will want to note that the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage advises that the Housing Agency’s financial statements 2021 are due to be presented to the Government next Tuesday, 24 January. They are expected to be laid before the Houses following that date. We will be examining the 2020 financial statements today. The committee may wish to convene a further meeting to examine the 2021 financial statements.
Before I proceed, I want to ask about the following. We are disappointed not to have the 2021 statements here. We are now in 2023. We understand they are coming next Tuesday, but I wish to ask the Department on what date did it receive the agency's 2021 accounts?
Mr. Feargal ? Coigligh:
I understand the accounts were certified on 25 November 2022. There was some design and translation work required to finalise them for presentation. They were submitted to the Minister on 9 January 2023. We have just received them and they are now with the Minister for his consideration.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I understand the Department became aware, on 19 December, that the agency was to come before the committee today. Is that correct?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Ó Coigligh can understand the disappointment and frustration of committee members because we do not have them.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is not coincidental that they will be before the House next Tuesday.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will most likely bring you back later in the year.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty, as Cathaoirleach, to ensure that privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory to an identifiable person or entity, I may direct witnesses to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such directions.
Members are reminded of the provisions in Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I invite the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to make his opening statement.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
As the Chairman said, the Housing Agency's financial statements for 2021 were certified by me on 25 November. As these have not yet been presented to the Oireachtas, I have to confine my comments to the agency's 2020 financial statements.
The Housing Agency's statement of income and expenditure is arranged to reflect the agency's three main areas of activity, namely the pyrite remediation scheme; the purchase of housing units mainly through the revolving acquisitions fund; and operational activity. The agency acts on behalf of the pyrite remediation board, managing the pyrite remediation scheme and making payments for remediation work.
Funding for the scheme is provided under Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage. In 2020, €13 million was provided from the Vote and a further €2.3 million was recovered in settlements with builders and developers. Expenditure on the scheme was €15.5 million. The revolving acquisitions fund was established as part of the action plan for homelessness. In 2020, the Housing Agency had income of just under €30 million from the sale of housing units and spent almost €31 million on the purchase of units. Operational activities of the agency, including administration and employment costs, are predominantly grant funded from Vote 34. In 2020, income for operations totalled €11.1 million. Operational expenditure totalled €10.6 million.
A significant portion of the agency's fixed assets comprise plots of building land acquired under the land aggregation scheme. In 2010, 73 sites were approved to transfer to the agency. On 31 December 2020, 65 of these sites continued to be held by the Housing Agency. These were valued at €51 million. I issued a clear audit opinion in respect of the agency's 2020 financial statements.
The revolving acquisition fund was formally set up on 1 January 2017 for the purposes of acquiring vacant residential units from financial institutions and selling them primarily to approved housing bodies for social housing use. The proceeds from the sales would then be available to be recycled for new purchases. Utilising a fund of over €70 million, the aim was to deliver 1,600 properties by the initial target date of the end of 2020. The target delivery date was later deferred to the end of 2021.
The examination found there was a significant shortfall in the delivery of residential units through the fund. By the end of 2021, the agency had completed the acquisition of 868 units, or 54% of the planned number of acquisitions, and had disposed of 735 of the acquired units, mainly through sales to approved housing bodies and local authorities. Initially, the completion of a sale to an approved housing body was considered to represent delivery of a housing unit, however, since 2018 residential units placed on caretaker leases with approved housing bodies have been reported by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage in its delivery figures for social housing. While 130 units were held under caretaker agreements at the end of 2021, around 40% of these were in fact vacant at the time. The examination also found that, at the end of 2021, the cash balance of the acquisitions fund was €37.7 million, representing around half of the total fund value. This is indicative of underutilisation of the fund's resources.
The Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority was established in February 2021 to oversee the effective governance, financial management and performance of all voluntary and co-operative housing bodies. The authority's first annual financial statements were prepared for the 11-month period ending on 31 December 2021. The authority recorded income for the period in the form of grant funding of €1 million from Vote 34. Gross expenditure by the authority recorded for the period was €1.1 million. The largest expense in the period of account was payroll with the authority employing a total of 19 full-time equivalents at a cost of €672,000. Other significant expenditure includes €132,000 paid to the Housing Agency for a range of support services provided under a service level agreement. During 2022, the authority started to unwind the agreement and to procure the required services from external providers. Again, I issued a clear audit opinion in respect of the authority's financial statements for 2021.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I call Mr. Jordan to make his opening statement.
Mr. Bob Jordan:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the opportunity to present to the Committee of Public Accounts on the 2020 financial statements of the Housing Agency, the agency's revolving acquisitions fund, and the work of the agency. I am joined by my colleagues Mr. Jim Baneham, director of delivery and innovation, and Ms Claire Feeney, director of services and inclusion.
The Housing Agency's purpose is to provide expertise and solutions to help deliver sustainable communities throughout Ireland. We do this by being a centre of expertise on housing, supporting housing policy development, and implementing effective housing programmes in collaboration with others. We work with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, local authorities and approved housing bodies, in the delivery of housing and housing services. The agency also implements the pyrite remediation scheme on behalf of the Pyrite Resolution Board.
To meet the challenges facing our society in respect of housing, the Housing Agency's role and work has increased significantly in recent years. Our work is closely aligned with the Government's national housing strategy, Housing for All. New areas of work include the cost rental equity loan, the enhanced defective concrete blocks grant scheme, the Croí Cónaithe cities scheme, and the management of the land acquisition fund. We will also be playing a role in resolving defects in apartments, which was announced yesterday. Our operational budget for 2023 is €16 million and we currently have 133 staff in the agency.
The Housing Agency's acquisitions fund of €70 million was established at the beginning of 2017. The agency's role was to engage with banks and investment funds, in areas of high levels of social housing demand, to acquire vacant residential units for social housing. Separate to the fund, the agency's acquisitions team has acquired properties for local authorities and the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to support the delivery of accommodation for international protection applicants. In 2014, the Housing Agency was given responsibility for regulating approved housing bodies under the voluntary regulation code.
This role ceased at the end of 2021 following the establishment of an independent authority - the Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority, which is here with us today. To facilitate this transition, the Housing Agency provided the agency with administrative support that concluded at the end of 2022.
The Housing Agency has a number of priorities. Our first priority is supporting the delivery of more affordable housing. We do this through providing cost-rental equity loans and central underwriting for local authority home loans and facilitating the provision of affordable purchase homes by local authorities. Another priority is increasing the supply of social and private homes. This will be achieved through our technical team to increase supports to local authorities and AHBs. We will be managing the roll-out of the Croí Cónaithe city scheme and are supporting the delivery of the Town Centre First policy to address vacancy and dereliction. We will also be purchasing land for social housing through the land acquisition fund.
Our third priority is addressing social inclusion issues, including co-ordinating the delivery of the national Housing First programme to end long-term homelessness, supporting the implementation of the national housing strategy for disabled people and supporting international protection.
Regarding the remediation of defective homes, we oversee the delivery of the pyrite remediation scheme. We will be supporting local authorities later this year in the enhanced defective concrete blocks grant scheme and will also be involved in the resolution of defects in apartments.
Finally, we contribute to policy development and public discourse by undertaking research. Our research covers three themes - affordability, sustainable communities and social inclusion. For example, we undertake the summary of social housing assessments annually. The Housing Agency is central to the successful delivery of homes and sustainable communities across Ireland. We are committed to ensuring there is financial probity, good governance structures and efficient measures in place to meet the remit and objectives of the agency.
I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and his staff for their assistance and courtesy in conducting their work. I thank the committee and the Chairman for their attention and will answer any questions they may have.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I invite Ms Lyons to make her opening statement.
Ms Susanna Lyons:
I thank the committee for inviting me here today to address it regarding the 2021 audited financial statements of the Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority, AHBRA. I am joined by AHBRA's head of communication Mr. Steven Sheridan, and our head of finance and corporate services Ms Paula Nyland.
The Housing (Regulation of Approved Housing Bodies) Act 2019 provides for the regulation of AHBs for the purposes of protecting housing assets provided or managed by such bodies. Central to this was the establishment of AHBRA on 1 February 2021. We are funded by the Exchequer from subhead A26 of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Our budget in 2021 was just over €1 million and our total spend was €980,000. Payroll accounted for approximately 66% of our overall spend.
Our board comprises nine members appointed in February 2021 following a process conducted by the Public Appointments Service. Our corporate governance arrangements are determined by our legislation, the code of practice for governance of State bodies and an oversight agreement with the Department. We have a number of regulatory functions, including the establishment and maintenance of registration, the setting of standards, encouraging and facilitating better governance, administration, management of AHBs, collecting and publishing information, assessing compliance against the standards and undertaking investigations and enforcement actions as appropriate.
AHBs are independent not-for-profit organisations whose purpose includes the provision and management of housing. They play a central role in the Government's Housing for All plan. AHBs report that they own, lease and manage just over 53,000 dwellings. The sector is complex and layered with a large number of AHBs that differ in size, scale, delivery models, funding structures and risk profiles. We have entered a multifaceted regulatory environment.
Our powers and functions were commenced on a phased basis throughout 2021 and 2022. One of our initial tasks was the development of our first statement of strategy, which we launched in October 2021. It sets out our vision, mission, values and five strategic objectives. These are captured in members' information packs. We have spent considerable time establishing our organisational structures, policies and procedures and implementing an appropriate governance framework. The current staff complement is 20. Thirteen staff transferred from the Housing Agency and we also commenced a recruitment programme, which remains ongoing.
In 2021, we drafted the standards for AHBs. They cover the areas of governance, financial management and reporting, property and asset management and tenancy management by AHBs. In drafting the standards, we conducted extensive engagement with key stakeholders. In 2021, we launched our website, hosted a series of educational communication webinars and made significant presentations to our key stakeholders.
Initially, the Housing Agency provided a range of services for AHBRA, enabling and supporting our early operations. These administrative services were governed by a service-level agreement and unwound in 2022. In January 2022, 450 AHBs were deemed registered. From this date, we became responsible for registration. We published the register and launched the registration programme. As part of this, there was an initial capture of information, which helped to inform the process. We published the standards for AHBs in February 2022 followed by guidance to support each standard. Our remaining powers and functions were commenced in July 2022 with AHBRA becoming operational. We published our regulatory framework in September. It sets out the framework that AHBs are subject to and outlines our risk-based approach to the sector. We launched our notifiable and general concerns programmes. We launched our annual monitoring programme where AHBs are requested to provide a range of information and data, which we are analysing and evaluating. We will use it to inform our future planned assessment programmes, identify common risks, develop education and guidance programmes and publish sectoral analysis. We introduced a pilot assessment programme that involves a small but diverse set of AHBs. That will allow us to test and evaluate the effectiveness of our process and procedures. Our formal assessment programme will be commenced in the first half of 2023.
We remain at the early stages of our evolution but we have made significant progress in establishing the organisation and putting in place the required regulatory structures but there is more to do. We remain committed to working with all our key stakeholders in delivering effective regulation. I am happy to respond to any questions members may have.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I reiterate my frustration about not having the numbers from 2021, although reading the files for today, there is so much to get to. I would second the idea about inviting people back this year. I will focus on the regulator because it is our first interaction with it and it is an area in which I am very interested. I am delighted to see regulation in this area. Given that AHBRA received administrative support from the Housing Agency through to 2022, the Housing Agency might want to come in as well. The introduction period was meant to be completed by November 2022. Are there any outstanding pieces of the legislation that have not been commenced?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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My understanding is that in 2017, there were over 500 AHBs. That number has gone down to 450 at the creation of the register. Could Ms Lyons outline how the initial register was compiled? Did AHBRA send out notification there an existing list that simply rolled over into a register? How did that happen?
Ms Susanna Lyons:
The 450 that were deemed registered on 1 January 2022 were on the list of organisations that had received AHB status under section 9 of the miscellaneous Act. They were registered with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Effective from 1 January 2022, they became the responsibility of AHBRA depending on their status.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Is Ms Lyons satisfied that every AHB operating in the country is now registered within that 450?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What powers does AHBRA have if it is made aware of a non-registered AHB?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What are those powers?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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AHBRA takes legal action.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Since its establishment, has AHBRA encountered reluctance or difficulties in the sector in registering AHBs?
Ms Susanna Lyons:
I thank the Deputy for that important question. Some 450 AHBs were registered with AHBRA in the first instance. Those 450 then had a period of time in which to register with AHBRA to retain their status. It depends on the size of the organisation. One with more than 300 dwellings has 12 months to register to retain its status. By 31 December 2023, it will need to have registered with us and been able to demonstrate that it can meet our eligibility requirements.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Did any AHB not meet the eligibility requirements and, therefore, was not registered?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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We are still within the 12 months.
Ms Susanna Lyons:
Yes. No organisation has yet applied. The organisations have time. As the Deputy will see in our submission or that of the Department, a technical matter relating to eligibility arose. As a result, an extension was given to the timeframes within which organisations could register. The Department has informed us that it is reviewing the technical matter within the eligibility criteria. It is anticipated that amendments will be proposed in 2023.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Do we know whether that will happen in quarter 1, quarter 2 or quarter 3?
Mr. Feargal ? Coigligh:
We are hoping to present amending legislation in the first half of this year through the miscellaneous housing Bill, which will cover a number of issues. The criteria for registration were cast too narrowly, with some unintended consequences. We need to adjust them to facilitate registration.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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At the end of my session, I had a question on regulatory capture. We discuss this matter often where housing is concerned. The implication of what the witnesses are saying is that we are already changing regulations or guidelines to suit particular agencies, but is that the case?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Which criteria in particular?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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For example, if an AHB also provided services for people leaving homelessness-----
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Okay.
For our work in future, how much of the witnesses' collected information is published and available to the public and committees like ours? Going forward, what will that look like?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Will that information include how many units a particular AHB has, for example?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What will be the parameters of that information?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Housing for All and the role of AHBs were mentioned. Based on 2021 numbers, AHBs account for €441 million, or approximately 15%, of the budget. Is that correct? The aim is for that level to reach between 40% and 50%, making AHBs a considerable part of the sector.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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The AHBRA could become responsible for oversight of a budget of almost €1.5 billion. That is the intention of Housing for All, if we take previous numbers as a guide.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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They are big numbers.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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That is a large job for a regulator. Is regulating 450 individual groups within that structure optimal?
Ms Susanna Lyons:
There is definitely a debate to be had about the size of the sector in that regard. Our key focus as regulator is on the organisations having the capacity and capability to ensure that people are safe in quality homes, on the organisations being governed correctly and financially viable, on them reinvesting in their properties and other assets, and on them having strong tenant communication policies and procedures.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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There is a spectrum of operations across 450 groups.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Does that present a particular challenge?
Ms Susanna Lyons:
Yes. It means that we have to be intelligent about applying our risk-based regulation. One of our main objectives for 2023 is to engage with other regulators in this space on enabling us to work more closely so that there can be more transparent and consistent decision making across regulatory regimes.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I wish to turn to the Department. We often discuss performance indicators and evidence-based decision making. What are the key performance indicators that the Department reports on in respect of each of the AHB funding schemes and how do they feed back into the budgetary process?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Is it five?
Mr. Roger Harrington:
They are the capital assistance scheme, CAS; the cost rental equity loan scheme, CREL; the capital advance leasing facility, CALF; and the provision of affordable housing scheme. I am responsible in the Department for the main scheme, the CALF, which is the main funding source for AHBs in the provision of social housing. Regarding the targets under Housing for All, each local authority area has a target of between 40% and 50% from the AHB sector. In Dublin and Cork, that target is 50% of all social housing delivery. It is 40% in all other local authority areas.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Of those schemes, whose funds are being fully utilised and whose are not?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Is it fair to say that some are more utilised than others?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Has the Department examined why that might be?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I am sorry to cut across Mr. Harrington. I do not mean to, but I only have three minutes. Is the scheme for which Mr. Harrington responsible utilising all of its allocated funding?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Obviously, we were coming out of Covid and were still ramping up, but by how much was there a shortfall?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Out of a total budget of how much?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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That is not an insignificant shortfall. When money that is available is not utilised, is there an interrogation of the reason?
Mr. Roger Harrington:
There would be. Last year was unique, for example due to the problems arising from the war in Ukraine and its impacts.
The rise in construction inflation hampered projects. In terms of what was reported to us by the AHB sector, there was quite a sharp shock in confidence. Also, between the rise in construction inflation of approximately 15% and two interest rate rises by their primarily matching lenders, what happens is under the CALF we give a capital contribution of up to 30% in terms of the capital cost of projects. In the main, the AHB sector then approaches the Housing Finance Agency for the matching 70%. A lot of viability challenges were reported to us in that year because projects that were viable were no longer viable.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Of course and I think that happened throughout the sector.
Today is the first time that the delegation is before the committee and, therefore, in some ways, we are setting the groundwork to enable us to continue this conversation. One issue that is immediately obvious is that we can invite the Housing Agency, the authority and the Department in but so much of this matter is bound up with local authorities whom we cannot invite. I would like all three groups present to outline the role that local authorities will have in the oversight of AHBs and their spending and the oversight for the Department in respect of social housing support schemes, and I ask the Housing Agency to list all of its interactions with local authorities. How can we have a joined-up view of what is happening when we cannot extend an invitation to a large part of the State's apparatus? I want to understand the relationships, particularly concerning the regulator and generally. I want to know how we can optimise oversight.
Mr. Roger Harrington:
I will begin by advising the committee of the architecture in place. The overall targets as part of Housing for All are given to each local authority and those local authorities have prepared a housing delivery action plan. Within the context of how that works, each local authority has what they call an AHB forum. The AHBs are invited in on a regular basis by the local authority and the local authority discusses with them where they need social and affordable housing, and the timeframe.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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As we are up against time I ask Mr. Harrington to make concise remarks. I will allow the Deputy back in as part of the second round and ask Mr. Harrington to continue.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Can I hear from the regulator?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Ms Susanna Lyons:
The regulator does not have a role specifically relating to local authorities but they will be able to utilise the delivery of our services so they can check against the register, etc. They enter their own contractual arrangements with each AHB and, therefore, they remain responsible for reviewing each of those contracts that they have, including nomination, capital programmes, etc. That is for the individual local authorities. AHBRA then can see the entire spend across the spectrum by local authority, AHB, etc. and that is a valuable tool.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I have run out of time but I wish to flag that there is an obvious issue with the Housing Agency.
Mr. Bob Jordan:
The housing delivery action plans are an innovation under Housing for All. In a way what happens in terms of social housing delivery was the local authorities were delivering what they were delivering and only looking over their shoulder to see what AHBs might deliver. Now they are mutually accountable for targets and that is a good thing.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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They are not accountable to us.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Harrington mentioned the forums at local authority level and how there is an AHB forum in each local authority. Is it not the case that is only officials who are on them?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is not members of the local authority and, therefore, there is no strand of accountability to the members at local level once they pass Part 8 applications. Is that correct? There is a flaw because there is no line of accountability at local level. Deputy Hourigan has pointed out that there is no straight line of accountability to us. There is no straight line of accountability to the members who were democratically elected at local level and are, legally, the local council. I draw Mr. Harrington's attention to this issue and perhaps it could be flagged to the Minister.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the witnesses for making time available this morning. I wish to deal with the Housing Agency's revolving acquisition fund. A target of 1,600 houses within a four-year timeframe was set and slightly over 50% has been achieved. Is there a reason that target was set? I ask because 50% is way off target and I wonder whether there is an explanation.
Mr. Bob Jordan:
There is. First, the revolving fund was set up to access off-market portfolios of repossessed rental properties by banks and funds. At the point in time that it was set up under Rebuilding Ireland there was quite a lot of that around.
In acquiring properties, the role of the Housing Agency was to refer to local authorities to ensure that any properties that we buy or bought would have been in line with social housing need, ensuring that they had good title and there was good value for money for the State. The whole approach to non-performing loans changed over time. At a certain point in time we saw the way the fund was operating and decided to just work with the local authorities on acquiring properties directly on their behalf. Two things were going on. One was a fund but the separate thing was a national housing acquisition team, and that team required a further 582 properties. We were still focused on the 1,600 target. As of today, we have achieved 1,537 but .
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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What does "the portfolio sales were not available to us" mean?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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That is interesting. I deal with banks in a different capacity as a solicitor. In the last few months I have come across two properties that were in possession of banks, which have been vacant for more than ten years. Vulture funds have come along and bought from banks and I do not understand why the State could not have done the same in a far greater capacity. How many properties in total were repossessed by the banks in that five- to eight-year period?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Only 400 in the first two or three years is a small number compared with what was available.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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It is easy for a local authority to confirm that. One could drop an email to a local authority and ask how many properties can it take on board. The housing list is huge so surely to God the number required could be identified in a timely manner.
Mr. Jim Baneham:
I will go into that. To go back a little bit, I was very active on delivering the fund at the time. The banks made lists of properties available to us. They sent substantial lists, which we then disseminated. We would split them up per local authority, and engage with each local authority. In some cases the details on the lists, in terms of identifying the property, was not sufficiently good for them to know exactly what property it was or the properties were unsuitable. Not to make it sound overly easy for the local authorities, they had some work to do. They had to look at issues, say, over saturation for social housing for some of them, etc. Effectively, there was a fairly significant drop-off between the lists. For example, if we sent a list of 50 properties to a local authority, the likelihood was that it would come back with an interest in 25.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I have a question on the sending of a list of 50 properties to a local authority.
How long would it take the local authority to respond? I am a bit confused about the time it takes from when a local authority acquires land and gets the building done. Likewise, regarding something like this, why does it take so long for an assessment to be done and to go back to the Housing Agency? What kind of timescale are we talking about? Are we talking about six months, 12 months, 18 months-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Yet, more than 400 houses were turned over in the first two years. It seems to have slowed up again after that. Was there a particular reason that by the end of 2021 it was 800 odd houses instead of 1,600 houses? Surely there must be some explanation as to why this was so off target
Mr. Jim Baneham:
There are a couple of technical issues. The biggest issue has probably been the speed of rotation. We anticipated that we could buy properties and then sell them on to an AHB relatively quickly. We thought we could certainly do it in less than a year, but we were kind of optimistic and thought it might take six months. In reality, once we got into the process, it took much longer. There are several reasons that was the case. One of those is that the funding system used by AHBs involves somebody lending them money. The CALF and P and A system involves them getting funding from a lender. These lenders have their own requirements, so-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry; I ask Mr. Baneham to explain about the lenders. I am a bit confused. Where are the lenders coming in? The Housing Agency is talking about acquiring from the banks. It has the funding and it is then transferring on. Why should it run into problems at that stage regarding to whom it is transferring on?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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---
Mr. Jim Baneham:
I will go back a little bit and explain the nature of the arrangement with the AHBs. We had capital money, so it was straightforward for us to buy the houses once there was good title and the local authority was happy for us to buy them, etc. That was the relatively easy bit. When we were selling them, and this was how the fund was rotated, by selling the properties on, mainly to AHBs, those AHBs had to fund that acquisition.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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After two years, surely the Housing Agency knew problems were arising and someone should have sat down at the table and asked how the process could be fast tracked? This is about getting housing available to people on housing waiting lists or trying to use up properties that are vacant. As I said, two properties I dealt with in the past three months have been vacant for ten years. We have, therefore, many properties vacant and yet it takes us ages to move them on, even though the funding is available and they have been sorted.
Mr. Jim Baneham:
There were many meetings and a lot of effort made to try to speed the process up with the AHBs. To try to explain the complexities in that regard, if an AHB had a funding arrangement with a bank, the bank would have a term sheet and it would say that the minimum drawdown from that institution under that facility would be, for instance, €5 million. Individual properties could not be bought from us on that basis. It was necessary to bundle properties together. The banks also insisted that, in some instances anyway, the properties would be fully occupied and repaired.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Regarding the banks, they are being sorted out in the sense that the State is taking properties off them. We are talking about reputable AHBs in this context, so surely to God a mechanism should have been set up with the banks to ensure this process was fast-tracked. The State was sorting out a problem for the banks and getting vacant properties used. In that context, surely there should be a more effective way of dealing with this.
Mr. Jim Baneham:
We did not have any influence on the banks' lending policies. At least one of them was not an Irish bank, so we had no influence over it. The banks' term sheets and the manner in which they set their terms to lend to AHBs was a matter for them. Additionally, and not to talk only about the banks, it was challenging for the AHBs to deal with properties. Returning to what the Deputy said about the two properties that were vacant for a long time, it would be exceptional for properties to be vacant for that long, in the context of properties to be dealt with. Properties were vacant for long periods, however, and they needed a fair bit of work. There was also a broad range of properties. In taking on a broad range of different properties in different locations with different conditions, AHBs found it a bit more challenging than they would have initially anticipated-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I will move on to one final issue concerning residential units that were placed on caretaker leases. Quite a number of them were vacant. Why put a property on a caretaker lease? That is always dangerous because doing so means problems can be run into quickly with that kind of structure.
Mr. Jim Baneham:
Again, just to explain the concept of the caretaker lease, we had two options when we started the process. We could have bought the properties and waited to sell them to the AHBs. The Housing Agency, though, is not a housing authority and we do not have big infrastructure that would allow us to maintain and operate properties across the country. We are just not that type of body. The other option was to allow the AHBs, before they bought the properties, to enter those properties and start working on them to make them ready for people to occupy. The purpose of the caretaker lease was to get people moved into properties sooner than if we were waiting ourselves to sell them on.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Quite a number of these properties were vacant then.
Mr. Jim Baneham:
They were. I think there was a vacancy rate of 40%. Again, it takes time. On a general process basis, it takes time. Once we hand the keys over to an AHB, its representatives visit the property, assess what has to be done, engage a contractor, etc. There is a process there. In some cases, there have been problem properties, and there still are some, where persistent issues have taken some time to address.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Returning to the revolving fund, where does Mr. Baneham see that fund being used up?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Deputy.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Can I ask a final question?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Where does the Housing Agency see this moving on to from here?
Mr. Roger Harrington:
There is a commitment under Housing for All to review the fund. That review has taken place. The deadline for that was the first quarter of 2022. Having done that analysis, we came up with a proposal where we would move the fund slightly, trying to use the strengths it has built up in recent years, to set up two streams. One would be around assisting in the work on the town centre first endeavours. The second concerned assisting in terms of Housing First and homelessness. We approached the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to seek a revised sanction for that work. Unfortunately, the Department's view was that those proposals were not sufficiently distinct from several of the funding streams we have and it rejected that approach.
We have had continuing conversations with the Department regarding this approach and continued to provide it with information we received throughout 2022, but the Department has maintained its view that it was not satisfactorily distinct enough from the range of funding mechanisms we have centrally and with the local authorities. Accordingly, we are now looking at a proposal that focuses on creating additionality in social housing through the conversion of non-residential and large-scale residential buildings into smaller units. This again speaks to many of the skill sets and experiences we have built up through the operation of the fund and the team that works in the Housing Agency. We have approved this proposal internally and it is currently with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for its consideration.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy McAuliffe.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I might stay with Mr. Baneham regarding the questions Deputy Burke asked concerning the acquisition fund. On the issues relating to local authority vetting or auditing, I was a member of a local authority when that took place. I recall some of the reasons properties were refused. Those included not being wheelchair accessible or not being on the ground floor.
I remember Fingal County Council referring to properties in the Finglas area, which is in the council's functional area, but it would have said that its housing demand was, perhaps, for Blanchardstown or Swords. In hindsight, those reasons almost feel like a huge luxury when you look at the housing waiting lists. When Mr. Baneham looks five years on, does he regret not being stronger with some of those local authorities in order that we might have acquired more housing?
Mr. Jim Baneham:
The relationship with the local authorities is a very important one for the Housing Agency. They are not going to go anywhere so it is important we have good relations with them. While we might have tried to cajole local authorities on occasion in respect of properties, their decisions were the final decisions and that was the end of the matter for us. We never bought a property if a local authority did not want us to buy it.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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In 2017, when there was very clear housing need across the whole spectrum, local authorities were refusing units. I can understand the reasons they might but, as somebody who has people coming to his clinic every single day, they just seem like a luxury. That is a polite term. This seems like such a missed opportunity in that units that were available would have been availed of. I have constituents applying for what are called choice-based lettings, whereby they apply for units where there might be very significant criminal activity in the broader region. We cannot get people to take those houses from the main list and people are still applying for those choice-based lettings because they are so desperate to get housing. In my view, it was a flaw in the process that local authorities could effectively put a block on the purchase of units that often became available then to people other than those on the waiting list. Would Mr. Baneham agree with that?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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For ten years they were okay with saying they got things wrong.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Does that continue to be the case?
Mr. Bob Jordan:
I think it does because they are the statutory authorities at the end of the day and they know their local social housing waiting lists. To be fair, they also know the areas where, perhaps, they cannot make allocations or where they do not need housing, so they need to be front and centre. Part of this was to do with the nature of the revolving funds. As I said, we did close to 600 direct acquisitions on behalf of local authorities. It is important to say that a lot of those acquisitions were focused on securing one-bedroom properties and larger properties for people who were homeless or coming out of homelessness to support the Housing First programme, about 300 units in total. To be honest, I do not think the Housing First targets under the Housing First implementation plan would have been achieved without the Housing Agency and the local authorities working very strongly together. I am sure the Deputy knows that one-bedroom properties are like hen's teeth, and we were in a position to go out and secure them. There was therefore a benefit-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Jordan might say that to the leaders of Opposition parties who are opposing one-bedroom housing and saying we need two- and three-bedroom housing when 70% or 80% of the housing waiting lists are one- and two-bedroom-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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It is not a matter for Mr. Jordan but I take his point.
If I may come back to the remaining target, how does the Housing Agency hope to achieve the remaining target and the remaining balance of the funding available to it?
Mr. Bob Jordan:
Mr. Harrington might want to come in here, but at the moment we are suspended from purchasing properties pending the review. Obviously, the direction of travel at the moment is looking at combining maybe a number of the functions of the agency. We have an advisory service on compulsory purchase orders. We have a technical unit to advise on converting non-residential units into residential units. We hope that this acquisition fund could be deployed then to purchase non-residential units, or larger residential units for conversion into smaller units, to tackle vacancy out there and to support the social housing list. The main benefit of that would be bringing real additionality in respect of the work of the fund.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I do want to move on to the approved housing bodies but, staying with Mr. Jordan, yesterday there was a very significant announcement relating to apartment defects. There is a proposed role for the agency in respect of the administration of the funding. The Construction Defects Alliance, which has done a huge amount of work on that, has very reasonably pointed out that many of the people running owner management companies, OMCs, are volunteers. They are owners who happen to be living in those developments and would not have the procurement, architectural or fire safety skills needed or even the skills to get the whole-building approach that is required now under the proposed legislation. I accept we are a long way from the final detail on this, but would Mr. Jordan accept that for these schemes to be successful it will be important for his agency to be not only resourced but also able to advise those owner management companies, on a broader range, of other defect schemes relating to individual owners?
Mr. Bob Jordan:
I think it would be fair to say that there are definitely widely varying capacities within OMCs. To be clear, since 2019, we have been providing training seminars for members of OMCs, people engaged in multi-unit developments, around issues such as sinking funds, service charges and so on but also on governance. At the moment all we know about our own role - obviously, the announcement was just yesterday - is that we have been asked to formalise that into an advisory and support service to OMCs which will be established in quarter 1. We are in the process of establishing that. Beyond that, depending on what the Minister and the Government ask us to do, we may be asked to provide some technical support-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Will that have a resourcing demand as well, from the agency's perspective?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I will move on to the AHB sector. I am Vice Chair of the Oireachtas housing committee and we have a line of accountability over what is happening in that area. We are just completing a round of delivery of Housing for All with AHBs and the local authorities and it has been very interesting to see how different local authorities and AHBs have been availing of the new tools that are available for public housing on public land and on private land. This sort of bounces between both the AHB sector and the Housing Agency. How comprehensively are they watching the gearing and the borrowing requirements for AHBs? The AHBs are raising a red flag and saying that some of the requirements around CALF and other funding streams require them to take on borrowing and they are somewhat reluctant to do that. They would prefer more a cash-based or grant-based scheme, so this is about the overall regulation of the financial arrangements and the financial governance but also about delivery.
Second, is there an audit or something taking place in the AHB sector to say how many AHBs are availing of all the tools? It is very clear that the new affordable purchase scheme and the affordable rental scheme are things the AHB sector has not really bitten on yet. Some of the local authorities have a long way to go as well. However, those tools are available, they have been legislated for and the funding is there. If AHBs are to be valuable, they must first of all be able to borrow. That is what we want them to do. That is the whole reason to have them; otherwise, we would be doing it ourselves. The second reason would be that they avail of the tools the State provides. Is that being monitored between the Department and the regulator?
Mr. Roger Harrington:
I might open up with that before I hand over to the regulator. First, on the question of gearing, yes, we are very conscious of that issue and we have had a lot of interaction with the AHB sector over the past year or so on that. The Housing Alliance has produced a comprehensive report by Savills, which it has forwarded to us. The Irish Council for Social Housing, ICSH, has also produced a financial roadmap document which it published last October. We have been undertaking a CALF review, and one of the recommendations of that review is that we set up an internal departmental working group to look at the issue of gearing in the AHB sector, which will report in 2023.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I am just conscious to hear from the regulator as well. Chair, I do not know whether there is time.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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No. I think the Chair is-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Keep it concise, Mr. Harrington.
Mr. Roger Harrington:
Certainly. Deputy McAuliffe asked if all the AHBs are availing of all the tools. Certainly, what we are trying to do, and where I am responsible for CALF, which is the main funding model, is to coax or to persuade AHBs to get more into the delivery of social housing.
To give a practical example, later this month, on 26 January, along with the ICSH, we are organising a workshop for smaller AHBs to essentially say to them that these are the range of tools that are available from the State. I will go along to present in terms of the CALF review, outlining the supports we have. The Housing Agency will be there talking about the technical supports and the Housing Finance Agency will also be there. We are basically trying to persuade those smaller AHBs that there is a range of those supports which will enable them to take up a higher level of delivery of social housing.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does Ms Lyons wish to answer that?
Ms Susanna Lyons:
On the gearing issue, it comes down to concentration risk in regard to growth. I just want to clarify that the gearing matter and leveraging is not a sector-wide issue. It is only for a very small number of AHBs that are demonstrating they are meeting their own headroom in regard to it. We have highlighted historically where in growing by debt and debt alone, you will naturally meet your own headroom in regard to that growth. For a very small number of AHBs, that is absolutely coming to fruition, so there need to be different considerations in that regard, and maybe significant mergers to help leverage their balance sheets better and so on. That is very important. I refer the committee to page 30 of the pack, where we can see that it is only a very small number, whereas the rest of the sector is not wildly leveraged and does not have the same issue. From a regulatory point of view, there is concentration risk from delivery. Those organisations that are delivering are utilising debt and debt alone and, as a result, the natural fruition is that they are going to meet their own capacity.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you. I call Deputy Carthy.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses. I would like to talk to Mr. Jordan about one of the flagship Government programmes, Croí Conaithe, which I understand is being administered by the Housing Agency. If I am correct, the basis of the scheme was on the evaluation that the construction cost of an apartment, at around €400,000, which is cited at the moment, would make it unaffordable and, therefore, an €80,000 subsidy would reduce the cost of that. Is that essentially the premise on which it operates?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has that programme been approved by the European Commission yet in terms of state aid approval?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What does “shortly” mean?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In the meantime, the Housing Agency sought expressions of interest last year. How many expressions of interest were received?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry but I would like to intervene. The question the Deputy asked is how many expressions of interest there have been. There is nothing commercially sensitive about that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Hold on a second. I want to get an answer to this. Can the Department answer as to how many expressions of interest there have been?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can that be done during the meeting?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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All of my questions flow from that. To clarify, who receives the expressions of interest?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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To clarify, in case there are issues around commercial sensitivity, the question I am asking is how many expressions of interest were received. I am not asking for the details of those expressions. Essentially, as I understood it, the closing date for receipt of proposals was last June and I am asking for the numbers at this point.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Department instructed the Housing Agency not to divulge that information?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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To clarify, and this is a point to Mr. Jordan and the Department specifically, this is the Committee of Public Accounts. The Housing Agency is administering a scheme. A member of the Committee of Public Accounts at a hearing is asking Mr. Jordan how many people applied for that scheme. I am not asking for any of the further detail. According to the response we are receiving, the Department and the Housing Agency have together decided that they are not going to divulge that information. Is that the situation as it stands?
Mr. Bob Jordan:
The situation is that it is an expression of interest process that we are carrying out on behalf of the Government and it is up to the Government to decide what information is revealed in regard to that, but it is a live process at the moment. We are in a stage 3 appraisal process and we are also awaiting a state aid decision.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The question has been put to Mr. Jordan as the Accounting Officer in the Housing Agency, in regard to a scheme that it is administering, as to how many people applied for that scheme. Mr. Jordan's position is that he is not providing that information.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So it is a political decision.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I asked Mr. Jordan whether the Department had instructed him not to divulge that information because it is very strange. If a local authority is carrying out a scheme which requires expressions of interest, it does not have to seek the approval of the Department in order to say how many expressions were received. It would be considered the most basic of information that is in the public interest.
Last May, Mr. Jordan, I presume of his own volition, published an article in a national newspaper. A pertinent paragraph outlined why the Government had launched a new Croí Conaithe Cities scheme aimed at providing 5,000 apartments in Dublin, Cork, Waterford, Limerick and Galway by 2026 through financially supporting the construction of apartment developments that will have planning permission but are not financially viable. It stated that the Housing Agency would administer the scheme on behalf of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. To any objective observer, that was very much the stamp of approval by the Housing Agency on that scheme, which was aimed at providing 5,000 apartments in Dublin, Cork, Waterford, Limerick and Galway. The Housing Agency had an expressions of interest scheme. It is in the public interest to know whether the level of expressions of interest would allow for the delivery of those and Mr. Jordan is not providing that information. I do not think it is acceptable.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There has been significant interest. Okay. We will try to move on. In terms of the significant interest, has there been a regional breakdown or disparity between the areas that Mr. Jordan cited in his article, namely, Dublin, Cork, Waterford, Limerick and Galway? Have there been expressions of interest from all of those areas, for example?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I take it from that language that some of those expressions of interest have since receded or are no longer in the-----
Mr. Jim Baneham:
Again, I can broadly describe a process. Some of them were not eligible. Some of them have basically dropped off further along the process for other reasons, but some of them were not eligible. I can give a simple example of why they might not be eligible. Some of them at the point of submission did not have planning, and that was a requirement.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many cases did that relate to?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If all of the remaining applications, if I can use that term, were to reach fruition, how many apartments would be delivered?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I presume state aid approval has not been granted. From that and from Mr. Baneham's reticence to give information, I take it that no application has actually been approved as of yet. Is that fair to say?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I take it that Mr. Baneham also cannot or will not provide a breakdown of approvals by local authority area or project size. We will have to follow up on this matter and use our authority to insist on that information being provided. This is a flagship programme. In every debate on housing I listen to, a Government spokesperson tells us that this is going to be a key scheme. One of the things we know is that, since the launch last year, there has been significant inflation in construction costs. At the much-vaunted housing seminar called by the Taoiseach in recent weeks, a number of developers were requesting increased subsidies. Has there been any engagement with those who have previously made expressions of interest who are now seeking additional funding under this scheme?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We are told that, at the summit, representatives of a number of developers were indicating that they wanted an increased level of subsidy. I take it the Housing Agency was represented at that seminar.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Can the agency give us any indication of the level of additional subsidy being sought?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They just want more.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Catherine Murphy has ten minutes, following which we will take a break.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The witnesses are very welcome. I will primarily focus on the enhanced long-term leasing of social housing. Obviously, value for money is a critical issue. We have to be prudent to get more for the money we have. The Housing Agency has a responsibility to deal with the local authorities in respect of leasing, which we were told was going to be phased out. Do we know how many leases are in place and the average cost per annum?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have very limited time. This is really important. I have found it really difficult to get this information. I would nearly have to write to each local authority. This is madness. My local authority has 2,250 leases. The information given in response to a parliamentary question a year and a half ago was that the average cost was €17,000 per annum. Doing my calculations on the basis of that, I see that the 2,250 leases in Kildare would cost €38 million a year. Over the typical 25-year lease, that works out to be almost €1 billion. There is no asset at the end. The house is refurbished and handed back at the end. We do not know where the tenants go but provision must obviously be made for them. That is incredibly bad value for money. In an article in 2021, someone I am not used to quoting, Mr. Dermot Desmond, said that this was a "criminal waste of money" and that investment funds were having a laugh at Ireland's expense. We all know we need housing. We need social housing, affordable housing, housing for sale and housing for rent. However, value for money is critical. The Housing Agency is carrying out a review. I believe it is into Part V provision. Do local authorities have the authority to buy Part V housing? Are they required to take the option of leasing Part V housing?
Ms Claire Feeney:
With regard to Part V, the default position is that local authorities are supposed to try to buy the units. There are instances in the build-to-rent sector, for example, where they may not be able to and must enter a long-term lease. However, in the main, the properties are bought. That is what the Department encourages local authorities to do.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Minister said that he was going to bring in legislation to exclude Part V units. Has that happened?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is still happening and I am seeing it.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay. The units are mostly purchased.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does the Housing Agency go to any lengths to look at or do an overall analysis of this long-term enhanced leasing? Ms Feeney said that it is carried out by individual local authorities. The Housing Agency has a role in this. Why would it not have overall statistics through which to look at this issue, the value for money achieved and how this is applied in each local authority? I am finding it really difficult to get comprehensive figures. It is absolutely essential that we get comprehensive figures and such an overview if this is a "criminal waste of money".
Ms Claire Feeney:
The Deputy is correct that this is being phased out but, for the enhanced leases or any other leasing proposal with a cost of over €20 million, we do a cost analysis for the Department. We compare the cost of the leases over the term with the housing assistance payment, HAP, direct build or any other approach. In many cases, the cost provisions in the recommendations are constrained by the fact that the units are only available for leasing. However, we do carry out a cost analysis for the Department.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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These units are only available for leasing.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How many are only available for leasing in respect of, for example, the Part V obligation on build-to-rent developments?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We are back to inadequate information.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When the agency does a cost-benefit analysis, does it include whether the State has an asset at the end?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How could a cost-benefit analysis possibly prove that leasing, that is, paying the mortgage for 25 years while not ending up with an asset at the end, is a better option?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is a very different thing. How is the cost-benefit analysis done with regard to value for money if the option to lease is not compared with the option to build or buy?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does this cost-benefit analysis mean anything if that option is not on the table?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am not trying to be rude but I have very little time. The Housing Agency may go back to a local authority with a cost-benefit analysis but, if it does not have the option to buy, it is not really looking at that option.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is a case of take it or leave it.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does the Housing Agency intend to do any comprehensive work in respect of this matter or is that the responsibility of the Department?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Has the Department conducted an analysis? I am aware that there is an intention to carry out such an analysis. We have been told that the scheme going to be phased out. When I started raising this matter with the Taoiseach in the Dáil a couple of years ago - I thought he was taken aback by what the scheme involved - I was told that it was going to be phased out. I was also told that the Government was not going to be on both sides of the fence whereby it would be leasing properties and local authorities would be providing tenants. Incidentally, people get paid for long leases regardless of whether the houses involved are occupied. The position is very certain. It is like winning the lottery because the numbers are known in advance. What is the Department doing to ensure that there is value for money in terms of reviews? Why is there an absence of global information in respect of this matter?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We need the Department to come back to us on this.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will ask it to do that.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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To be perfectly honest, in ten years' time people will ask who was mad enough to sign off on this scheme in the context of analysing the viability of the housing stock in the longer term. The Department is not going to have stock at the end of this. I ask that the officials come back with a comprehensive report. Answers are also required in respect of a number of questions. How many leases are or were in place and what is the average cost involved? Replies to parliamentary questions indicate that the information involved is commercially sensitive on an individual basis. Perhaps the Department could outline the average cost per county. When will the scheme will be phased out? Why has not been phased out to date? How can the Department conduct a cost-benefit analysis in circumstances where something is not for sale? How does the build-to-rent aspect work in the context of Part V housing? We need to have oversight of all that. If we are going to assess whether there has been value for money, we need that information. It is very hard to see how anyone could say that there is value for money when it comes to enhanced leases.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy has gone over time. There will be a second round of questions.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In terms of Kildare, after I was told that the scheme was going to be phased out, there was an increase. That was my experience. I have no way of knowing the position for certain, and that is why I want the Department to supply the information I have requested.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I suggest that the officials comes back with the information within two weeks. Is everyone happy enough with that? Okay.
We will suspend for ten minutes and resume at 11.15 a.m. sharp. I ask for co-operation in order that people will have time for a break.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The next committee member to speak is Deputy Dillon.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome our guests and thank them for joining us today. I also thank them for their work within the relevant Departments. I will start with the Housing Agency's remit to deliver a workable pyrite remediation scheme. I am interested to hear about the agency's involvement in the roll-out of the scheme.
Mr. Bob Jordan:
We roll out the pyrite remediation scheme on behalf of the Pyrite Resolution Board, PRB. We have been doing this since February 2014. We do the full solution in terms of carrying out the remediation of properties accepted into the scheme. We co-ordinate the testing of dwellings and recommend the inclusion of dwellings within the scheme. We then enter into agreements with each scheme participant and get contractors to do the work.
In terms of figures, we have just surpassed the 2,500 remediations mark. Over the past couple of years, the cost of remediation has increased, mainly due to construction inflation, from about €65,000 on average per unit to about €90,000 today. We would regard the pyrite remediation scheme as being in its mature phase in the sense that the number of applications is going down and the number of remediations that we have to do is also falling. I can give the Deputy some figures on the scheme. In 2020 and 2021, 201 properties were remediated. Last year the figure was 235 and we have a target of 260 dwellings to remediate this year.
The other point to make is that we are very conscious of the impact of pyrite on homeowners. Indeed, that is a theme this week in the context of defects. The PRB conducts an annual survey of people who have had their properties remediated and the overall satisfaction rate for the scheme and the Housing Agency's involvement in it is over 85%. The current figure is actually 87%.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It was originally estimated that over 10,000 dwellings were impacted by pyrite. Since the scheme's establishment, we have remediated over 2,500 dwellings.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the extension of the scheme to other local authorities, I see that Westmeath has now been brought in. I ask Mr. Jordan to provide some detail on that and to outline any future plans to extend the scheme to other local authority areas.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Jordan said that the average cost of remediation has increased from approximately €67,000 to €90,000 per unit.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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How has that affected the annual budget allocation?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What has the Housing Agency learned from the roll-out of the scheme? Have there been any learnings from the agency's engagement with homeowners, local authorities and the contractors on the execution of the scheme?
Mr. Bob Jordan:
The main learning from the scheme has been that the contractors have got very efficient at doing housing in estates and can now do the work in a short period of time. They have learned how to implement the scheme.
Maybe the bigger learning from the pyrite remediation scheme is that we are now taking on a role in the enhanced defective concrete blocks grant scheme. Some of the staff who have been involved in delivering the pyrite remediation scheme will bring and are bringing that skill set to that scheme. Obviously, if the agency has a significant role in relation to apartment defects, those skills will be brought forward. I suppose the agency has developed an expertise in this area of remediation and the resolution of defects.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will ask about the agency's staffing because the roll-out of the enhanced defective blocks remediation scheme will be enormous. What type of resources are required to work with local authorities? Is the Housing Agency taking responsibility away from local authorities in delivery for homeowners who gain approval to enter the scheme?
Mr. Bob Jordan:
Under the enhanced defective concrete blocks grant scheme, the homeowner applies to the local authority. The local authorities remain out front. Our job will be to act as agents of the local authorities in the assessment of applications to ensure that they meet the damage threshold, sampling and testing the homes, determining the appropriate remediation option, and recommending the maximum grant amount to the local authority, which will then inform the homeowner of the amount of the grant.
On the logistics of it, we now have a regional office in County Donegal, which is equidistant between the Inishowen Peninsula-----
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is it in County Mayo?
Mr. Bob Jordan:
-----and County Mayo. It is equidistant. We are trying to cover both areas through that office. Counties Clare and Limerick will also be coming into the scheme. We have a lot of interaction with local authorities around that. At the moment, we are at the stage where regulations are being prepared by the Department. We are working with the Department on our role in respect of those specific regulations. We have done a tendering process to get consulting engineers ready to go. Essentially, the agency is ready to take up our role in this scheme, once the green light is pressed for the introduction of regulations.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Will the Housing Agency support homeowners in the acquisition of contractors to do remediation works?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Will the Housing Agency review the cost analysis in respect of building inflation for the initial scheme? As was mentioned, costs for the pyrite remediation scheme have increased from €67,000 to €90,000, which is an increase of nearly 30%.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will ask departmental officials about the roll-out of the scheme. How confident are they in local authorities regarding the delivery of this scheme? To take Mayo and Donegal county councils, what has been the officials' engagement to date in respect of the accessibility to homeowners of the new, enhanced scheme?
Mr. Feargal ? Coigligh:
Again, this is another topic that does not come under the remit of my responsibility or that of Mr. Harrington's, within the Department. The Department is working on regulations to give effect to the scheme. It has put a lot of effort and resources into that to try to address all the issues. If there are any specific questions, we can come back to the Deputy.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As departmental officials are here, I will ask whether they have oversight of the pyrite remediation scheme.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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My time is limited. I will move on to the land aggregation scheme. How many units does the Housing Agency estimate it will deliver on existing sites at present? Will its representatives provide an overview regarding its work in this area?
Mr. Jim Baneham:
I will give an update on that. The land aggregation scheme involved the transfer of 73 sites at the outset of the process. At the moment, we have transferred 13 of those either to local authorities or AHBs. There are also some school transfers to the Department of Education. To date, 676 dwellings have been built on lands that were land aggregation lands. A small number - I think it is only 18 - are currently on site, but planning has been granted for a further 444 and another 1,300 or so are in the planning process. Quite a large chunk of that is with the Land Development Agency, LDA, and the strategic housing delivery planning system. There is bit of delay on that but, taking it altogether, we are looking at approximately 2,500 dwellings at present in terms of delivery that has already occurred, what is in the pipeline and what is planned. There is probably capacity for further houses beyond that as well.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the allocation of those houses, how does the Housing Agency work with local authorities in assigning those houses to individuals?
Mr. Jim Baneham:
There is particular LDA legislation which obviously impacts certain sites but the first port of call is with local authorities to see whether they want to use the site. They always get the first dibs on it. After that, we engage with AHBs, if they are amenable. We have had a couple of processes with AHBs where we have gone out and looked for expressions of interest. Once a scheme is built and is ready to be allocated, that is entirely a matter for the local authority.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will touch on AHBs. If smaller AHBs look to wind down and given that State funding or backing has been provided, what regulatory oversight does the AHBRA have, once the loans are repaid in full, particularly if the AHB is not looking to deliver additional housing?
Ms Susanna Lyons:
If an AHB is seeking to wind down and cancel its regulation with AHBRA, we will seek clarification on what will happen with the assets and what is the current status of those assets, in addition to what will happen with the tenants and whether the assets are being transferred to another AHB. Additionally, we will seek representation from the local authorities to make sure that any liabilities associated, and any contractual arrangements, have been fully covered and that they are satisfied with such. That is the formal side of it but from a mergers and stock transfers perspective, because there are some interests in this AHBRA will release information and guidance relating to best practice for winding down, mergers and the type of things the board should consider.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Generally speaking, what does AHBRA find happens to the assets?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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With the trustees of the board. Is that the case?
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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To give an example, it would go from, say, Respond to-----
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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On building up the total housing stock throughout the State, would it not make more sense for the State to take out an equity stake rather than providing loans? We would then be building up the housing stock. Would that not make more sense?
Ms Susanna Lyons:
That is a matter of policy. The regulator is here to evaluate the AHBs, to understand the financial structures etc.
At this time what we are seeing is that growth is utilising the capital advanced leasing facility, CALF, and loan financing and any growth is debt financing. Historically, if we look at the base, about 51% would have been the capital assistance scheme, CAS, and the capital loan and subsidy scheme, CLSS, but now we see that the CALF and debt funding are starting to take over from that. However, whether that is equity is probably more a matter for the Department.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Has any consideration been given to that or has any research been commissioned?
Mr. Roger Harrington:
This is an issue that has arisen in the context of the CALF review and in terms of the wider debate that is going on in the approved housing bodies, AHB, sector, as we discussed, regarding the levels of gearing. We have very recently completed the CALF review and it has been approved by the Minister. It is currently on its way to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for its sanction. One of the recommendations is to establish an internal departmental working group to look at the issue of gearing. In terms of potential solutions to that issue, we will be looking at the equity stake idea.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I did not catch all of the meeting but what struck me most of all from the first questioner, Deputy Hourigan, right through was the phrases "we are currently looking into that" and "we are looking to establish this". We are in the depths of a housing emergency and whether it is delays or the revolving acquisition fund or whatever questions the witnesses were asked, the answer was always that the matter was being looked at. We are in the depths of a housing emergency and things are just being looked at and faults identified in the various schemes and processes have just been allowed run. I question the witnesses' grasp of how desperate it is out there when things are allowed to sit and slide without immediate attention being given to them. Things that could be rectified fairly swiftly to ensure the smooth delivery of homes to people have not been done.
Mr. Roger Harrington:
In my area of responsibility on the CALF side, which is one of the major programmes for funding AHBs, when we hit situations where those particular financial models do not work as well as they could or they run into issues, as they did last year with construction inflation and the challenges to viability from the Housing Finance Agency, HFA interest rate, while it might be frustrating, in order to go forward, it is a necessity for us and we have to, in a sense, stop, do a review, consider the position and then move on with an improved system that will deliver more housing in more local authority areas under the CALF scheme.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Harrington would accept that the evidence suggests there is a lack of expediency. The process is so drawn out. We hear from approved housing bodies how long it takes for departmental approval. They go through the Housing Agency in a relatively short time and then they have to duplicate that work which can take anything up to six months. The cost of construction is rising, so things are costing more in the long run because of that delay. Is it something the Housing Agency is aware of as an issue? Mr. Harrington mentioned going through a process, but when AHBs are saying that there is undue delay and it is coming from the Department, that is something that could be simplified, I am sure.
Mr. Roger Harrington:
I am not aware what specific scheme the AHBs Deputy Munster may have been talking to are referring to. With the one I have responsibility for in CALF, we turn around, with the assistance of the Housing Agency, all applications within a maximum of six weeks. Indeed, the majority of our applications are turned around within four weeks. On occasion, where we have to react to urgent applications from the AHB sector that are moving to meet the credit committee deadlines of the Housing Finance Agency, we turn them around in 24 hours. I do not know if there is any further comment the Housing Agency might want to make, but certainly it is a pretty speedy process in terms of the CALF application process.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I have just pointed out to Mr. Harrington that approved housing bodies have flagged that there is undue delay, that there is a reasonable turnaround with the Housing Agency, but then it goes to the Department and the whole rigmarole has to be gone through again and everything duplicated, leading to increased construction costs. This is all totally unnecessary in the midst of a housing emergency. It beggars belief.
Mr. Bob Jordan:
It may not be the CALF funding mechanism. I suspect it may be the other mechanisms. The turnaround time on CALF is very good. We do it within two weeks within the agency. I can provide the figures for last year. We appraised 241 projects with the potential to generate 5,000 homes through the approved housing bodies. They were all turned around very quickly. The appraisals are done on behalf of the Department, so there is not a follow on.
Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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They are not saying that because they are bored. They are saying it out of frustration.
Mr. Roger Harrington:
What the Deputy might be referring to is a particular situation we had in 2022 where, because of the two HFA interest rates, it may have been necessary for certain AHBs to get re-approved because the financial circumstances had changed as a result of the HFA interest rate rise. This issue has not been raised in the consultation we have done and in our fairly regular meetings with the AHB sector. We are looking at a situation, and we hope to implement it relatively quickly in quarter 1 of this year, where the approval will reflect, in terms of the CALF and the payment and availability amount, what might happen if the HFA were to increase its interest rates. It would negate the need for the AHBs to come back to us and for us to go back to the Housing Agency to get a re-approval process. That should short-circuit that particular process.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Unfortunately, I missed the opening statements. I was at a committee meeting as well. Forgive me if I go over questions that have been asked already. I want to touch on the AHBs initially. How many AHBs are there in the State at present?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Are there any outside of that framework?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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What is the final figure?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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What oversight is there of their mechanisms to draw down funding, such as CALF and CAS and all the other schemes mentioned? Is AHBRA fully responsible for the governance of the AHBs or are they individually responsible as commercial entities? How does that work?
Ms Susanna Lyons:
The regulator has implemented a set of standards relating to the governance, financial management, reporting, asset and property management and tenancy management of AHBs. They are independent legal entities in the main. That is our regulatory framework. We also manage the registration of AHBs, so those that are currently deemed and any new organisations that may wish to register as an AHB would do so with the new authority.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Are all of the 450 registered? Is that how they are deemed to be in operation?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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What volume of queries about processes and complaints has the Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority as regulator been dealing with?
Ms Susanna Lyons:
It is small. We received three concerns in 2021 and eight in 2022. We also have a notifiable events framework for organisations. We are trying to build out a proactive regulatory environment. In November 2022, all 450 AHBs were required to submit a substantial set of information about their organisations for the first time as part of the monitoring programme.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Without going into individual detail, were those complaints made by tenants, councils or organisations? Will Ms Lyons shed some light on them?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Have the three concerns from 2021 been dealt with and closed or are they ongoing cases?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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My next question is for the Housing Agency. What funding has gone to the 450 AHBs collectively and what funding do they generate themselves?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Baneham not have a figure?
Ms Susanna Lyons:
I have that figure. Across the board there is €5.6 billion of liabilities for those organisations. That can be split into grants to the sector, which are just shy of €1.5 billion, and loan financing, which is €3.6 billion. Loan financing is comprised of CALF and HFA funding. I can give the Deputy any further split he requires after the meeting.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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If Ms Lyons does not mind sending that to the committee as a note after the meeting, that would be very helpful. Will the Housing Agency give an update on the development of each of the eight sites Mr. Baneham referred to that were transferred to the land aggregation scheme at the end of 2020?
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The development of eight sites was referred to.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, that is fine. Can anyone speak about those sites that were transferred to the LDA or is that outside the witnesses' remit?
Mr. Jim Baneham:
I will speak about them. There are three sites. They have yet to transfer to the LDA. One is in Naas - it is close to the local authority offices in Devoy Barracks - another is in Skerries and the last one is in Balbriggan. The site in Naas has planning approval for 219 dwellings. Planning applications were submitted for the other two well before Christmas and a decision is awaited. The one in Skerries is for 344 dwellings and the other is for 811 dwellings in Balbriggan. I do not want to misquote them, but they are hoping to start on site before the end of quarter 2 in Naas.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Sixty-five sites were to be transferred out of the land aggregation scheme. Have any been transferred at this point?
Mr. Jim Baneham:
We started with 73 sites. Perhaps the 65 the Deputy refers to is from our 2020 report. We still had 65 then. We are down to 60 as of the end of last year. The other matter to be mindful of is that we sometimes transfer a portion of a site. We would still count it as a site we own but we own less of it, so there has been more activity and there have been more transfers than might be obvious from the movement from 73 to 60. As noted, we first consult local authorities to see what their intentions are for sites and, subject to them being happy with us going to the AHB sector, we engage with AHBs.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Baneham send a note to the committee on the remaining 60 sites? It does not have to be too detailed. If he included the size of each site and whether they are serviced, that might be helpful.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am trying to understand the Department's rationale behind the various housing models that are being used. In some cases they have been 100% financed, while in others it has been 90% or 30% and the AHBs go to the Housing Finance Agency to borrow the rest. When the AHB is out the other end, as it were, and the finance has been redeemed after 25 or 30 years, why is the State not taking an equity share in those developments? Will Mr. Jordan explain the agency's thinking on that as it seems it is losing an asset?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Where does it revert to? I have looked at the briefings for today's meeting and read about the five different schemes, and I am not clear about what happens at the end. If the State has equity in a scheme, it has control of the asset. The reason I ask the question is because some of the earlier and especially smaller AHBs that started in the 1990s are now coming out the other end of it, so to speak. A small one I am aware of is in a situation where allocations have never come through the local authority and it built, possibly, as far as I can ascertain, and there will be clarification from the Department and the local authority on this, with 100% finance. There is no regard to rent. No allocations are coming through the local authority. A private company is now running the show. The only interface the tenants, who are vulnerable, have with anyone is with a private company. Some were handed forms recently to go to the social welfare office and claim rent supplement to pay higher rents, and to cap it all off, new tenants coming in for a considerable period of time are paying hello money of up to €10,000.
Let me be clear. In the main, the AHBs play a valuable role. They are very good. We will accept that some are better than others. In our neck of the woods we have been lucky with some good ones. Certainly, we have found that some of the bigger ones provide good quality housing, good tenant liaison, fair rents and so on. The sector is good.
However, I am concerned about vulnerable tenants. The first thing that is going wrong is that the allocations are not coming through the local authority, which assesses housing needs. That is the gate people come through, is that correct? Now, rents can be increased. Recently, there was a situation where a manager, who perhaps would have handled it on behalf of a voluntary board, is now supplanted by a private management company that notifies residents that their rents will increase by perhaps 60%. There is a situation with that. Some people have been handed forms to go down and claim rent supplement. I also raise the question of hello money. Can Ms Feeney deal with that for me?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It could become more usual if they get away with it.
Ms Claire Feeney:
The allocations normally depend on the funding. With all of the current schemes, because the funding is coming through the local authority, the local authority has 100% allocation rights. There was a time where if something was delivered through, say, fundraising, the local authority would not have had any say regarding the allocation. In addition, there was a period where, depending on the type of capital assistance scheme, it could be a ratio of 75:25.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is correct.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking a very direct question regarding the point where the loan is redeemed or where there is no longer that financial connection. Let us say the 25 or 30 years are up. Can this situation arise? How has this situation arisen? I read that it is most likely a capital assistance scheme coming from the 1990s. It states here that the rent should be an economic rent and tenants are taken off the local authority housing waiting list. Can somebody in the agency or the Department confirm whether that should still be the case, even when they are out of the period of financing? However, the AHB has a 25% nomination right if it offers 95% CAS funding, which could be the case. There is an active search for the paperwork on this at the moment. At the very least, the local authority should have 75%. Do they have that when they are out of the financing period?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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To clarify, does that mean that they can allocate to whomever they want?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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So they can do what they like. Here we have houses built with taxpayers’ money and land donated by an institution – and thanks to them for that. It was a very positive thing at the time and a very good use of a piece of land. Houses were built by the taxpayer and the taxpayer is now subsidising the rents for these. The vulnerable tenants are left in a situation where the only interface they have is with this private company.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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This is extraordinary.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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This is a crazy situation. As the Committee of Public Accounts, there is the whole thing about value for money. We are losing. One of the Deputies already referred to this matter briefly. Could these situations arise? Here is an example of where it has arisen. We are losing housing stock. It is a small enough one at fewer than three dozen. I do not want to be too specific about it. It is fewer than three dozen. There is at least one that I am aware of and possibly a second. There is a situation where that social housing is now lost. For example, a vulnerable tenant living in a caravan – a pensioner – who does not have the €10,000 and is most in need of single-storey accommodation in that area does not have a hope of getting in the door, potentially, if situations like this start arising around the country. Somebody who has €10,000 in hello money is straight in the door. The management is now done by a private company. This is bizarre. We are now in a situation where social housing is now in the possession and control of a private company. The State – the taxpayer – finances it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. However, the main interface, and the only interface that some have had, is with a private company. That is the point.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the fact that there is a regulator in place. From the point of view of value for public money, the reason we have social housing is to meet the social housing need for those who cannot provide a house. The group I am talking about is elderly people – the most vulnerable – and some of them have special needs. Yet, we find ourselves in this situation. The concern is that if this starts happening across the State, what power does the State have? Is the State completely rudderless? Are the hands of the Government, the Department, the Housing Agency and the regulator tied behind their backs and all we can do is stand on the sidelines, look at it and say “Is this not terrible?”
Ms Susanna Lyons:
A concern could be raised with us if the organisation that the Chair is referring to is a registered approved housing body. What he has demonstrated does not appear to be correct in relation to governance, financial management and property and asset management. Second, 95% of AHB organisations are charities, so there is a charitable purpose. Organisations’ constitutions will clearly lay out that they are in the provision and delivery of housing for those in need. Use of the term “hello money” etc. would not necessarily demonstrate that. Within our concerns policy, anybody – any member of the public – can raise a concern with us and it may be a good idea to do that in that particular circumstance.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The provision of these units was very positive. They met the housing needs of an awful lot of people, some of whom were elderly and, unfortunately, have passed on over the past 20 or 30 years. The intentions of the body itself were positive and good. The people on the small approved housing body did good work and had good intentions. However, typically, people move on and people are getting older. They then find that their capacity to manage it has changed, they decide to bring in a private company and here we go. That is the situation. I think there will be a bit more on this one and there could be another one along with it as well.
I will allow members back in for a second round of questions.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I want to stick with that issue. For clarity, taking out the particular instance the Chair has provided, at the end of any kind of financial lien with an AHB, the AHB has full control over the asset and there is no allocation rights from the local authority. Is that correct? Okay. We can have a long conversation about value for money in terms of the State and having absolutely no allocation rights in perpetuity. However, just to be clear, regarding the briefings we received, much of the discussion around the AHB model is that you can work with local authorities to fulfil national policy on things such as disability provision, the provision of elder housing and all of those good things. The issue of the AHB being a charity or non-profit is neither here nor there.
The issue is not profit; it is that they will be under no requirement to work with the local authorities to fulfil those quotas. The housing units will be there but the AHB can operate completely independently from the local authority at that stage because there is no lien on the property. I would just flag the fact that does not make any sense.
I want to be clear on a few other things. These questions are for Ms Lyons. Are there any investigations currently being undertaken by the Approved Housing Bodies Regulatory Authority? Has it launched any investigations yet? I know the authority is in early its stages.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Has it received any complaints or submissions?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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The 89 notifiable events are just standard changes to practice in some way but there have been eight complaints. Have none of them resulted in an investigation or are they are pending a decision?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What is the standard operating timeline for closing out a complaint?
Ms Susanna Lyons:
We do not have a specific timeline because we do a number of things. Any concern that is raised with the regulator is screened. We then review that against our remit. It may be that that concern may be best dealt with by another regulator. Then we do a risk evaluation on it and then we review. We may close it and not ask for any further information. We may proceed to ask for additional information or we may proceed to bring it into our regulatory framework, that is, have a planned assessment or reactive assessment.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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For example, if I as a tenant submitted a complaint, would I have a right to an answer within a certain timeframe?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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It would be advisable for a regulator to have a standard practice of giving a meaningful response within a particular timeframe, stating that it will either roll this over to another regulatory body or close it out within that timeframe. It should at least have that as a guideline. Obviously if a tenant is experiencing something distressing or difficult, not having a timeframe is problematic.
We have talked a little today about registering AHBs that are currently in that process. During 2021-22, were there any AHBs that received funding from the Department that would not have been registered, whose registration was pending or were not fully registered?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Maybe I am asking this the wrong way. How many AHBs received funding in 2021-22?
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Could we get that number? Then we could see if any of them were not within the 450 that are on the new register. That is what I am asking.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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We can double-check.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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On the 450 AHBs, obviously there are different tiers. My experience with the larger ones is that they are professionally managed, whereas the smaller ones are usually run by volunteers and can be vastly different. That is where I have seen difficulties with getting insurance and not being in compliance with things and causing all sorts of problems. Some of those issues have been resolved. My understanding is that for a lot of these, it was capital assistance and then there was an annual maintenance amount provided so as to keep the stock up to standard. Am I right on that?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does that continue to be paid after the 25 years, once the loan is discharged?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Some of these organisations will have built up assets. What happens to those assets? Once they do not have a loan they will get rents. They may well have people, if they have a differential rent for example, who are paying the maximum of that and if they have been using that maintenance grant wisely the housing stock will be in good condition so they may well not have to reinvest it in those houses. What happens to those assets? Do we know?
Ms Claire Feeney:
In some situations where the CAS mortgage has run out, to come back to Deputy Hourigan's point, a lot of local authorities will enter into what are called CAS-RAS arrangements with the person in order to keep that control. Any operational funds that are given are based on what is projected as being needed to keep the property and would take the rent off.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Do the RAS arrangements have to comply with someone having a differential rent, or is it market rents that the RAS is matched against? What is the arrangement there?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That would make a very sizeable difference in terms of building up assets. It would mean the State would, if it is market rent-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Do the eight concerns that have been raised relate to the smaller tiers or the larger tiers, that is, the tier 3 housing bodies? Is that known?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does the authority have a remit to do research into how these bodies have functioned, or malfunctioned? Is it required to wait until an issue is raised with it?
Ms Susanna Lyons:
No, we have that ability. We monitor all 450. We have just rolled that out. We can assess an organisation specifically against the standards. We will roll out a planned assessment programme throughout 2023 and we will choose those AHBs based on their size, scale, risk profile, any information we may get in, concerns, any adverse media or any notifiable events. We take a multiple of things that allow us to evaluate who needs to be assessed within our regulatory function.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is clear we need to get some information so we can see how that works out once the loan is discharged and all the other issues in relation to the allocations policy. That would be quite a critical issue to make sure you do not end up with someone who can pay a market rent. That was my experience with some of the smaller AHBs. They wanted to get allocations made to people who could pay at the top end of the differential rent in order to build up the assets. They may well have been people who were able to rent outside of the scheme. This would be small numbers but I have seen it happen. It would mean that AHB could build up substantial assets. There is a very unknown quantity about who controls that.
I only have 49 seconds left. I was going to ask about the pyrite scheme-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will be liberal with the Deputy. Keep going.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I would have been involved in that scheme at the initial stages because Fingal, Meath, and to a much lesser extent, Kildare, would have had involvement in that.
It is ongoing. People have a perception that once these schemes are put in place it will be immediate. However, it rolls out over a long period. Approximately 10,000 dwellings were initially assessed as possible. The estimate is now down to 6,000 and 2,500 have been remediated. It is remediation as opposed to a compensation scheme. How many more are in the pipeline? The qualifying criteria tightened after the initial scheme was put in place in that the house had to be in a worse condition before remediation kicked in. The State elongated it. It is now €22,000 more expensive than the estimate of €45,000. The outworkings figure is now €67,000. Then there is building inflation. Will prolonging this cost more? How many are in the pipeline?
Mr. Bob Jordan:
As of December 2022, approximately 3,200 applications had been received and 2,800 approved for inclusion. As the Deputy said, 2,500 have been remediated. We aim to do 2,060 next year. Certainly, it is the intention of the agency working with the Pyrite Resolution Board that we get as many applications in as possible. As I said earlier, we believe this scheme is in the mature phase. We do not want to prolong this. We want to ensure that people get their applications in and this is essentially worked through in the next couple of years. We are doing a review in that regard at the moment. One of the issues has been that previously many of the properties were in estates and there are economies of scale and efficiencies in doing the work whereas we have had more single properties over the past couple of years. We are looking at our processes to ensure that does not delay the remediations going forward.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank Mr. Jordan.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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To return to the point about the situation when the loan finance is discharged, the regulator, Ms Lyons, said earlier that there were more than 50,000 housing units within the AHB sector. How many of them are leases and how many are capital financed?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the total?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There are potentially 50,000 homes for which the State could provide up to 100% finance in some cases and when the loan finance is discharged, despite the fact that they are within the ownership of the AHBs, which I understand are charities, the local authority will have no allocation power and cannot allocate tenants on the basis of social need. There will be no control over rent. They can charge hello money if they wish and tenants need not necessarily be managed by the AHBs, which, in general, I find good. They could be managed by a private company brought in on its behalf and the interface and any dealings that the tenants have is with the private entity. That is the position. This is a pause and stand back moment for me, looking across these schemes. I have been looking at this for a while. Since I received the briefing document yesterday I have been studying this. Following the clarity this morning on this, it is a pause and stand back moment. This is most serious. Can anyone correct me if I am wrong? We have sleepwalked into this. With up to 50,000 housing units, when the loan is discharged, the situations I outlined can arise. The local authority has no control over allocation. Ms Feeney clarified that. There is no control over rents. People can be asked to claim rent supplement if the body wishes to charge hello money unless some other powers or laws can be found within the statutes of the State to stop this. Hello money can be charged and a private company can be brought in to manage them. Can anybody clarify that I am wrong?
Mr. Roger Harrington:
I will speak to that. A piece of work is being done in the Department, looking at this particular situation at the moment. It is referred to as the unencumbered units working group. It is effectively looking at these future pieces particularly around the disparity. Deputy Murphy raised this issue. What happens when the loans are ended is that there is a disparity between the income and expenditure in respect of the particular units. That working group is looking at that at the moment. I gather it is due to report mid-year.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I accept that there is an economic reality that has to be faced in house maintenance but while doing that work, I ask the Department to consider that some of these AHBs are in an position to draw down considerable SEAI grants. The SEAI was anxious to capture groups of houses, particularly where there is a small community centre, which there is in many of these small developments. We have had SEAI before the committee in the past. It was actively seeking them. Some of these bodies may have availed of these. In any look at this taken by the Department or the Housing Agency, I ask that this be factored into it. There may have been substantial funding drawn down in terms of energy upgrades for external wraparounds, internal insulation, changes of heating systems, doors and windows. That should be brought into the case.
I have a couple of questions for the regulator. Ms Lyons confirmed that she has the power to cancel AHB registrations but she has not had to do that as yet. She has had eight complaints. Going back to when the finance loan is discharged, has she any powers in that regard?
Ms Susanna Lyons:
There is probably some assurance here. Mainly if an organisation is an AHB and is subject to all aspects of our Act - and some examples were mentioned by the Chair - we have the powers to require information and records. Where we do not believe that properties are being managed in the appropriate manner, we have the ability to cancel its registration and transfer those assets only if it is still within mortgage. Once outside mortgage, these assets are owned by independent organisations. We then move into the more complex area of the Charities Act and charitable law. For an assurance framework it is unusual for organisations not to have a mixture of funding and funding tenure, as in the lifetime of that. The regulator is not just regulating a specific property that it is just funding; we are regulating the organisation and how it manages the properties, how it owns them, leases them, maintain them and so on. We have the ability to ask questions on that. That provides an assurance.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Lyons can ask questions, but what powers does she have? That is the question. She seems to be alluding to, once out of that financing period, be it 25 or 30 years, the powers would be under charities legislation only. That is what she is indicating here.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question for the Department and Mr. Jordan.
Can AHBs sell that after the 25-year period?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They could sell 50 or 60 houses.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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And they can hold on to the cash.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of their constitution. They draw up their constitution like any other legal entity, normally in consultation with a solicitor. That is the way it would work.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Even if they do not change their constitution, you are talking about a body with massive assets. You are creating-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are talking about 50,000 houses.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Now, but if we are spending €1.5 billion on this every year, for the foreseeable future, as part of Housing for All, immensely powerful, essentially non-profit corporations will operate with little oversight in this country. The Charities Regulator will not become a housing regulator.
Ms Susanna Lyons:
It is our role to oversee these bodies and to make sure they are operating in the correct manner. Whether funding ends after 25 years is a contractual matter for the Department. However, our laws and the way our legislation is written at this time relates to how they were funded and, as the Deputy will appreciate, that is exactly where our powers come from. If a property has a mortgage, we have substantial powers. We have the power to go to the High Court and ask for an order where we can bring in new directors and stop the sale or transfer of a property. Therefore, we do have considerable powers in that regard and we will utilise those.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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Now?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will let the Deputy come in later. After the 25-year period, AHBs can set the rent themselves, bring in a private company to manage them and ignore the local authority as to allocations. They do not have to go on the basis of housing need. Some of these have never gone on such a basis. I will not say "never" but the practice has not been to consult or take nominations from the local authority. AHBs can hand tenants rent supplement forms and, we have now learned, they can also sell the houses. That is the situation we are in.
Mr. Feargal ? Coigligh:
The committee has raised legitimate issues and, as my colleague, Mr. Harrington, said, there is a working group in the Department looking at the issue of unencumbered AHBs. It would be wrong to give the impression that the sector, as a whole or in general, seeks to act in a way that is not appropriate. The sector is providing a very good service.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will clarify that point. I said this at the start. I acknowledge the good work the sector is doing, but we have left a way open, in the design of these five schemes, such that most of these houses can end up in a situation, when they are out of mortgage and the finance is discharged on them, where the State has no control, loses the asset, and tenants have no control over rent. It essentially becomes a private entity and a private matter between tenants and the AHB. The case I outlined is that of a private company brought in to manage them. I accept the vast majority of people who formed small housing bodies over the years did so with good intentions and gave up their time on a voluntary basis. That has been accepted. I also accept that the larger bodies act professionally. My dealings with and observations of them have been positive. I have found them to be good, generally, but not always. I accept that. What I am pointing out is that we have left a way open, through these schemes, for these situations to arise in respect of no less than 50,000 homes.
Mr. Feargal ? Coigligh:
My problem is with the Chairman's last comment about the "no less than 50,000 homes" because I do not think that is the position. He has raised a legitimate issue and the Department is looking at unencumbered houses, but in terms of the sector in general, the larger providers that provide most of those homes, and will have an enduring relationship with the Department, have to work with the State. It is not a scenario that could arise. What we need to do is see if there are any gaps, such as the lacuna the Chairman pointed out. If there is anything else we need to address, we will look at that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The gap is as wide as the barn door. That is how wide the gap is. I accept most bodies will continue to work with the State, particularly if they continue to roll out projects, because they have to play ball with the Department but they could also tell the Department to get lost. They can tell everyone to get lost - the Committee of Public Accounts, Mr. Jordan, the Minister, the Taoiseach, and the Attorney General - because, legally, that is it. All the cards are in their hands after that period.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Tell me why it is not the case. I have asked the question a few times. You explain to me why it is not.
Mr. Feargal ? Coigligh:
The Chairman has raised legitimate issues, or a small number of issues, that could arise. The Department is looking at the issue of unencumbered estates. We will consider that. We hear what the Chairman and the committee is saying today. We will work with the regulator, and anyone else, to see if additional measures need to be taken.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I was concerned before 9 a.m. I have become more concerned since. I acknowledge the Department has to deal with it as it is, the design and all that, but this is a very serious matter that needs swift attention.
Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I refer to Mr. Ó Coigligh's characterisation of it as "a small number of issues". We have just outlined in this session that it seems 100% of AHBs will fully own their assets at the end of the lien on the property. That is not a small number of issues. That is a State approach that will allow us to fund something that we will not have control over as an asset.
On the Chair's point, we have heard today that we are at 15% now, but Housing for All will make this 40% to 50%. It could amount to in excess of €1.5 billion being spent every year on an asset over which, in 30 years, we will not have any control. That is a massive issue for this committee. I reiterate that I have serious concerns about the interplay with this and local authorities because it seems there is not sufficient oversight there.
I asked the Department earlier for key performance indicators on how it assesses AHB funding schemes. I would appreciate if a list of those indicators could be provided. I presume they are required by the Department of Finance anyway, so they are probably on file somewhere. I agree with the Chair; this is deeply concerning.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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This was a capital assistance scheme. How many of the units currently with AHBs were funded through the capital assistance scheme, and has there been any change over the years that would make a difference when the houses that have been funded to date become, as we call it, "unencumbered"? It sounds like a 19th century land war kind of terminology. Is there a difference? Can anybody answer that?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Could Mr. Harrington also tell us if there has been a change where the State will have a greater involvement after the point at which they become unencumbered?
The other matter falls under the remit of the Charities Regulator because this involves companies that are governed by charity legislation. Is it the case that if they were to change their constitution, they would cease to be charities?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Who would be the beneficial owners then?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In the case of an AHB being unencumbered, and where it changes its constitution to cease being a charity, who is the beneficial owner? Who would do that? Is it the directors of the company?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Then we come back to the point about the hole in the bucket. Who owns the assets at the end if there is nothing to put them back into? For example-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes, but you might end up with a small site with a dozen houses on it and with no room to put another house on it. Where do the assets go? You can do only so much maintenance and upgrading. You could end up with very sizeable assets as a consequence of the State making this investment in the first place for a very good reason. In fact, part of the reason some of these smaller ones came about was that it was an opportunity to deliver on social housing when in fact the local authorities were not delivering the numbers required to be delivered. It was additional.
I think we will need to come back to what protections there are for the State in making sure you end up with some degree of control at the end. What has also piqued my interest is that the State is on the one side, where it has paid for the building of these houses, and then, as the point has been made, you may end up having to fund the rent through the RAS or rent supplement, which is ludicrous, because the State is then paying the rent for a house the State paid for to build in the first place.
I am absolutely depressed after this morning. I cannot conceive of people designing this kind of scheme and not imagining how it would end or where the roadblocks or the problems would be. I think you are right, Chair. We came in here worried and now we are really worried.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Unfortunately, in this country we deal with an awful lot of short-termism. That is what I call it. There is a challenge for everyone here. There is a challenge for us and a challenge for the witnesses.
Mr. Baneham, you wanted to conclude.
Mr. Jim Baneham:
Yes. This affects only a relatively small number of units but it might affect more in the future. The Housing Agency has used long-term leases for a number of AHB projects. The one that is probably best known is the Enniskerry Road project. The transfer of the land for that is under a 150-year lease and the freehold has been transferred to the local authority. There are therefore restrictions on use for the term of the lease in that regard and the freehold ownership does not pass to the approved housing body.
We have a land fund. We receive money from the Department to buy land for both local authorities and AHBs, and it is envisaged that long-term leasing will be used as the mechanism for transferring land to AHBs under that scheme as well. It has yet to be finalised exactly how that will work, but that is how it is envisaged it will. That type of arrangement, I think, would address a lot of the concerns that have been expressed.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will you outline that briefly again, Mr. Baneham? Are you talking about housing units that have come out of the end of the financing period?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What if the land is in the ownership of the AHB, which would be the case-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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To clarify, though, with the CAF scheme, Mr. Baneham-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, so it is the approved housing body that owns the land. There is no legal lien in terms of freehold or leasehold on the land. That is-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are after dealing with a lot of stuff. It is a big challenge for everyone. I know there is a lot of questioning and scrutiny of the issues, and it is a challenge for the agency, the regulator, the Department and us as public representatives. I thank the witnesses and the staff from the agency and the regulatory body - we wish them well on this - and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, as always, for the work involved in preparing for today's meeting. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General for assisting with and preparing for today's meeting.
Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed to note and publish the opening statements and briefings provided for today's meeting? Agreed.
This meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts is suspended until 1.30 p.m. We will resume in public session, so I ask members to be back on time because we have a lot of business, correspondence, etc., to deal with in the afternoon.