Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have a couple of comments on the Convention Centre Dublin. I get the impression, not just from the witnesses but also from others who have been before us, that there is a culture of fear in the public service, and that this is known by people who do business. It is almost like a reverse socialism. There is a fearlessness among those people. We see it, for example, in the context of the children's hospital with the number of claims being made. We are also seeing it with regard to the Convention Centre Dublin. The convention centre paid more out than €40 million in dividends in 2020 and 2021. The figures were €31 million in 2020 and €8 million in 2021. There was an impairment with regard to the accounts in 2021, and yet bonuses were paid. The OPW has stated it does not have a direct involvement in that. Why is that not all considered in a very robust way when the OPW is dealing with matters such as this?

Because I have so little time, I want to return to the issue of Military Road and An Garda Síochána. Mr. Buckley made reference to 600 personnel. That is a very different figure to the one we were given previously. In 2016, the OPW was informed that the capacity was greater than 1,000. The actual figure was 1,090. The number of gardaí we are talking about matters in the context of the accommodation requirements. There are arguments that the open-plan design at Military Road is not ideal for some of the very sensitive matters with which gardaí will be dealing in that building. I will leave that aside, however. In addition to the Military Road build, there are also: Clyde House; the traffic centre at Heuston Station; the annual lease on the Phoenix House at Conyngham Road; the capital costs of the Phoenix Park building; and the Navan Road. Even though there is no building at the Navan Road site, we cannot bring people from a divisional station to somewhere else without a cost. It seems that by reducing the number to 600, which is a different number from the one we were dealing with, it minimises the cost of the move from the Harcourt Square building.

It does not improve our carbon footprint to be levelling a building and replacing it. In fact, it is the reverse. I would be concerned about the culture of seeing this as a positive. I want a list of the actual costs of all of these buildings. I want go back to the figure given in 2016 of 1,090 gardaí and I want to know how they will be accommodated.