Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome everyone to the meeting. No apologies have been received. If attending in the committee room, attendees are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others against the risk of contracting Covid-19. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that, to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Parliament.

The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee and is accompanied this morning by Mr. Leonard McKeown, deputy director of audit at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

This morning, we will engage with officials from the Office of Public Works to examine the following: from the 2021 Appropriation Account, Vote 13 - Office of Public Works, OPW; and from the Comptroller and Auditor General’s 2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services: Chapter 8 - Contract payments in respect of Convention Centre Dublin. Information was also requested from the OPW regarding its evaluation of its expenditure for value for money, and this is in the context of a related provision in the committee’s orders of reference.

We are joined by the following officials from the OPW: Mr. Maurice Buckley, chairman; Mr. Ciaran O'Connor, State architect; Mr. Jim Casey, head of flood risk management; Mr. Martin Bourke, commissioner; Mr. Mick Long, director of corporate services; and Ms Rosemary Collier, assistant secretary. We are also joined by Ms Marie Mulvihill from the relevant Vote section at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. They are all very welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile telephones are on silent or switched off.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Chairman to ensure that privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory to an identifiable person or entity, I may direct witnesses to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such directions.

Members are reminded of the provisions in Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before we move to opening statements, Mr. Buckley is welcome. As mentioned, the committee requested information from the OPW and from Mr. Buckley, as Accounting Officer for the OPW, in relation to value for money. This was so the committee could assess whether Mr. Buckley can demonstrate that value for money has been achieved in the accounts under his responsibility. Clarity was sought by his office as to what was required. The clerk contacted me in relation to this and, following that discussion, advised Mr. Buckley's office that answers were required to each of the eight questions set out in the document, and as the request was in addition to the usual material, the answers could be concise. Despite this, Mr. Buckley's response provided a short overview of his efforts to assess expenditure for value for money without any reference to the questions asked by the committee. I note that Mr. Buckley was advised of the committee’s intention to engage with him today on 13 November, the formal invitation issued on 21 November and the request for the value for money information issued on 28 November. We feel sufficient notice was given. I would be grateful if Mr. Buckley could set out why we have not received answers to those eight questions. It is a framework the committee has and we have put a lot of thought into putting it together. It is part of our obligations under standing orders. I ask Mr. Buckley to explain why we do not have that here this morning.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Thank you. The request is one that we have not dealt with before. I appreciate it is part of the new procedure but at a time when we were preparing a lot of information for the committee on the briefing, we were taken a little by surprise by the request. We should not have been and I appreciate the need to put the information together and that we are late coming back. I apologise for that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The reason we set it out within that framework of eight different sections was in order to make it easy for witnesses coming in. We understand there is a lot of preparation work for the Accounting Officer coming in but the fact is that we do not have it here this morning. The OPW has a large brief and a large budget, and there is no argument with that. We are anxious that when Accounting Officers come in, they comply with that. We would appreciate it if that could be followed up on. We accept this is the first time for Mr. Buckley to receive that particular request in that format. We ask that his office would respond to it within the next two weeks under those eight headings.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

We will come back on that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you. I will move on. I call on the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The 2021 appropriation account for Vote 13 records gross expenditure of €492.5 million. The account is presented under two programme headings: €99.6 million, or 20% of the total, was spent on the flood risk management programme; and just under €393 million was spent on the estate management programme.

The OPW provides office and other accommodation to Departments and offices using a combination of leased and State-owned property. The associated costs are a direct charge on the Vote. This includes rent payments totalling €103 million; expenditure on new works, alterations and additions costing €97 million; and property maintenance and supply payments totalling just over €64 million. The account records the value of State-owned land and buildings at the year end at just over €3.4 billion.

Apart from the activity accounted for under Vote 13, the OPW also acts on an agency basis on behalf of Departments and State agencies. This mainly relates to the carrying out of major capital works and the leasing of accommodation. The expenditure associated with this agency activity is reflected in the accounts of the client Departments and agencies. Total agency expenditure handled by the OPW amounted to almost €184 million in 2021. This brings the aggregate value of the expenditure handled by the OPW to €676 million in the year. The surplus on the Vote at the year end was €40.4 million. Of this, unspent capital allocations for flood risk management to the value of €20.7 million were carried over to 2022. The balance of €19.7 million was surrendered back to the Exchequer.

I issued a clear audit opinion with regard to the appropriation account but drew attention to two matters disclosed in the statement on internal financial control. First, the Accounting Officer discloses that there was a material level of procurement charged to the Vote that was not compliant with public procurement rules. Second, he sets out the level of expenditure on two measured-term maintenance contracts, where the amount actually spent was very significantly in excess of the original estimated value. Total expenditure to the end of 2021 was €103.3 million on a contract put in place in 2018 that had an anticipated value of €15 million.

Chapter 8 of my report on the accounts of the public services examined how the OPW has managed certain contract-related underperformance in the operation of the Convention Centre Dublin. The convention centre is operated by a private special purpose company under a public private partnership, PPP, agreement with the OPW. PPPs are agreements between the State and a private partner where the inherent risks of a project or enterprise are intended to be assigned to the party better positioned to manage them. The financial terms of the deal should fairly reflect the allocation of the risks. In the case of the convention centre, the State is committed to a stream of expenditure over 25 years, in the form of regular unitary payments. In 2021, these amounted to €23.8 million. The primary objective for the State in entering the PPP agreement is to increase Ireland’s share of the international conference market, thereby increasing incoming tourism revenues. Under the terms of the PPP agreement, there is provision for a modest reduction in the annual unitary charge amounts payable to the operator when the number of international delegates falls below specified minimum levels. Due to the impact of the Covid-related restrictions on travel and indoor gatherings, the operator did not reach the target minimum level of international conference delegates. Under the PPP arrangement, the State was obliged to pay the bulk of the annual unitary charge. Due to the shortfall in international delegate numbers, however, an estimated €1.32 million was due for withholding in the period August 2020 to July 2022, with a further estimated €190,000 due to be withheld in the period August 2022 to July 2023. Pending the outcome of negotiations with the operator, the OPW paid the full unitary payment amounts that were otherwise due for the periods under review, without the specified deduction. In my view, this represents an overpayment of the amount due under the contract.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy. As detailed in his letter of invitation, Mr. Buckley has five minutes for his opening statement.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I thank the Chairman and members for their invitation to attend this meeting. I am joined by a number of members of the OPW management board. Beside me are Mr. Mick Long, head of corporate services, and Mr. Martin Bourke, head of estate management. In front of me is Mr. Jim Casey, head of flood risk management, Ms Rosemary Collier, head of heritage services and capital delivery, and Mr. Ciaran O’Connor, State and principal architect. Ms Marie Mulvihill also joins us from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

I hope the advance brief and updates provided to the committee included sufficient information on the matters raised in recent correspondence. I apologise again for the late submission of the value-for-money papers. I just checked and three cases have been provided. However, I am very happy to answer any queries on the updates provided or any other matters the Chairman or members wish to raise with me and my management board colleagues today.

I will present some summary output information on the 2021 appropriation account for Vote 13 and comment further on matters raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General in the chapter of his report entitled Contract payments in respect of Convention Centre Dublin. However, I will first outline to the committee the essential role the OPW plays in how Government and the State deliver on a wide variety of projects for the Irish people.

Our vision is to maintain "our built and natural environments in harmony" and our purpose is to provide the Government and the public with versatile, innovative and specialist services. I will refer to just some of those specialist services provided to Government. We are the State’s lead body on flood risk management. We provide office space for more than 40,000 public servants. We maintain and showcase national monuments and important historic buildings such as Leinster House, where we are today. We manage public parks and gardens. We oversee the State art collection and when called upon, we co-ordinate and organise State events.

The OPW's greatest strength is its people. They bring a focus and commitment to their roles and have a wide range of expertise and experience across the property and heritage estates and flood risk management. Projects and requirements of Governments frequently change. What is constant, however, is the need for the State to have the expertise and capability to deliver on its plans for our people. That need is highlighted in the OPW's recent role in the State's response to the Ukraine humanitarian crisis, our ongoing work on the response to Brexit and the continuing delivery of infrastructure projects under the national development plan.

As the Comptroller and Auditor General stated, the 2021 gross expenditure of the OPW was €493 million. In addition to the information on expenditure presented to the committee today in respect of Vote 13, I must point out that the OPW acts as an important delivery agent, undertaking work on behalf of Departments and State agencies. Expenditure on this activity in 2021 amounted to an additional €184 million. This appears as a charge on the accounts of the client organisations.

Exchequer funding to the OPW supports two core programmes of work, that is, flood risk management and estate management, which includes heritage services. Almost €100 million was invested under the flood risk management programme in 2021, reflecting the significant growth in the number of schemes in the design and planning stage leading through to construction in recent years. As part of the OPW multifaceted approach to flood relief, we continue to implement a suite of infrastructural and other measures to mitigate the impact of flooding on people, homes, properties and businesses. More than 300 communities around the country, which are home to approximately 3 million citizens, will benefit from the current investment programme.

An amount of €393 million was invested in estate management in the past accounting year. We have one of the largest, most complex and wide-ranging property portfolios in the State. It includes 2,500 properties that are managed as a shared service for over 80 Government bodies within a very complex working environment.

This responsibility has become all the more essential for the State as the OPW supports the design and delivery of the workplace of the future for the Irish Civil Service.

In the aftermath of the pandemic, both our future and our workplaces will be different, and we are addressing the most urgent issues of climate change and sustainability. The OPW is at the coalface of these issues across its remit. In delivering the workplace of the future we are working with clients to develop more sustainable and innovative accommodation solutions, including a number of notable retrofit projects happening within the OPW portfolio.

In order to carry out its functions, the OPW uses a mix of in-house expertise and outsourced services, contracted through a wide variety of appropriate public procurement channels, including the measured term contract to which the Comptroller and Auditor General's report refers. The procurement of these services is cost-effective, compliant and conducted in a transparent manner and while developing these methods, I am conscious of the ongoing needs to meet the compliance and transparency requirements of the Government. Procuring works through framework contracts often represents the most efficient mechanism for the delivery of maintenance and small works services in particular.

While the demand on the Dublin-based measured term maintenance contract was underestimated when it was established, it nevertheless proved to be essential in delivering on the urgent critical infrastructure needed to prepare Departments and the State for the impact of Brexit. Brexit is an example of the OPW being called upon to carry out essential works for the Government at short notice. The initial request was for facilities at Dublin Airport, Dublin Port and Rosslare Europort. However, what started as nine projects eventually grew to become 28 projects for four Departments. This meant as a country we were prepared for the changes that ensued when the UK left the customs union. While it was not anticipated that the contract would be needed for projects of this scale, it nevertheless ensured essential infrastructure was delivered by more than 60 small and medium-sized subcontractors in labour-intensive works within the required deadlines, while controlling costs and ensuring value for money.

Separately, the appropriation account refers to a significant increase in the value of non-compliance within procurement rules. As referenced, the sum of €18 million refers to regional spend on regional building maintenance works. This procurement process was based on a list system of engaging multiple small and medium-sized enterprise contractors across the nationwide portfolio. Contracts in excess of the advertising threshold of €50,000 were awarded by way of competitive requests for tender. However, this system has since been proven not to be fully compliant with the current rules. In collaboration with the Office of Government Procurement and the local government operational procurement centre, the process of moving to a compliant system of procurement for these contracts is well under way. This will see the level of contracts awarded in this manner reduced by 50% in 2022 and they will continue to fall as contracts are closed out and new procurement frameworks are established.

From a wider perspective, an ongoing programme of procurement compliance improvements is being progressed across all sections of the OPW. A corporate procurement plan for the OPW is now in place and will be implemented under the auspices of a relatively newly-formed procurement advisory unit and an internal procurement network. The OPW, while initially seeing an increase in the non-compliant returns on procurement reported through greater transparency, is now much better placed to deliver procurement compliance into the future, while still achieving the flexibility needed for the work of the OPW. The Office of Government Procurement has engaged in detail with us on this matter and has been of tremendous assistance in our drive towards speedily reducing the level of non-compliance procurements while ensuring our continued ability to deliver for government.

I will update the committee on the latest position in relation to the performance at the convention centre in Dublin. This matter is a relatively complex one and I am still considering legal advice and the position of the parent Department, namely, the Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media on this matter. I have also decided to seek further advice from EUROSTAT and from the Department of Public and Expenditure and Reform on the options available, before reverting to the Convention Centre Dublin and making a final decision on the matter. I will revert to the committee once a decision has been made by the OPW on this.

I thank my colleagues in the OPW for their work in delivering services as we emerge from the Covid-19 pandemic. I am honoured to work with such a dedicated team in the OPW and I am very proud of the long legacy that the OPW has in delivering services to the Irish people across the country.

I thank the Chairman and the committee members for their time, and the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General for its work and recommendations. I welcome any questions.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Buckley.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Buckley and his vast team are very welcome. It is appreciated. We appear to have the whole shooting gallery here, which is great.

I will start by touching first on the maintenance contracts, and particularly the measured term maintenance contracts. In the period from 2020 to date, were any works carried out that were in excess of the €500,000 with regard to those contracts?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Yes. Most of the Brexit projects we refer to were well in excess of the €500,000 guideline.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Buckley said "well in excess". Perhaps he could just expand on that and the period.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

The Brexit works were in the period from 2019, with the very last works closing out this year, or having closed out. In total across that period, I am told by my colleague here that it was in the region of €71 million.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is that €71 million over and above, or is that just Brexit related?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

In that, as I just said in my statement, there were some 29 projects. I can check it exactly but I would say that every one of them was more than €500,000 in value.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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When we last engaged on this, the criticism was from 2015 to 2018. The OPW was tendering contracts at €3 million but spending €10 million. Then the OPW was tendering contracts at €5 million but spending €25 million. There is a quare difference between €3 million and €10 million, and between €5 million and €25 million. Why is the OPW so unable to accurately forecast?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

It is very important to explain that what we are talking about there is a framework contract, which consists of lots of individual projects. Lest anybody listening would misunderstand, it is not that the work cost more than anticipated: it is that more projects were done than anticipated.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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But this is the maintenance contract, so if the tender was for €3 million, surely one would have been able to forecast what needed doing and to issue the contract for €3 million. But then to pay €10 million-----

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Each individual project within that is very carefully monitored and comes in exactly on cost. That is the beauty of that framework. There is a whole schedule-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Why the overspend?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Because more projects were required and done.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Right, but had the OPW not an idea of that in advance when it was issuing the tender?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Hindsight is golden and-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, hindsight is golden but this happened repeatedly. This happened in 2018 and 2019. Does the OPW not learn from past mistakes? It actually happened in 2015 if we go back.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

It comes really from the period of Ireland coming out of financial recession of 2010 and the-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is all the more reason to be prudent with taxpayers' money. It appears that the OPW does not seem to learn from its mistakes. Each year, it issues the contract and it goes to three times - more recently five times - above the original tender amount. Lessons do not appear to be learned.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

They have been learned certainly. I must state again-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Buckley said they have been learned; we have yet to see the proof of that.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I am going to demonstrate how that-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Under the new framework I believe the contract is €10 million. Is that right? It commenced this year and the works were valued at €10 million.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

It is €10 million per annum.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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How can we possibly have confidence that the OPW has accurately forecast that those works would come in under the tender amount? Going by its track record, that €10 million could end up being €50 million.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

There are a number of points there. We have developed a number of parallel frameworks. At the time we are talking about, there was a single measured-term maintenance contract in place for all of greater Dublin. Now there are two - north Dublin and south Dublin approximately. There are a number of other specific framework contracts for works required. For example, there is a frequent requirement for office fit-outs at very short notice. We have learned from experience in the past that in order to meet the timelines required by the Department, we had to use the measured-term maintenance contract in order to get the transparency and control we needed. We have specific frameworks in place.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Therefore, Mr. Buckley could pretty much guarantee us that it will not go over that €10 million by a factor of multiples because he has just said the OPW has learned and put measures in place. How can he seriously expect us to have confidence? Is he telling us that we can have confidence that the OPW has learned from its mistakes, such as the blowing of taxpayers' money and not being able to adequately forecast, and that it has corrected all that and will not go over this framework of €10 million this year?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

It is very important that I repeat that this is not overspending of taxpayers' money.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What is required is to adequately forecast. We have gone through that.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I just wanted to make sure it is understood-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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A hames was made of every contract the OPW issued because it has gone over by multiples each time, and it is getting worse. Mr. Buckley said there were additional works but the OPW was not able to forecast those works and yet that is the job it is tasked with. Regarding the €10 million and that the OPW has learned lessons and has put frameworks in place, can Mr Buckley guarantee the committee that it will not go over that €10 million and we will not see the constant mistakes of the past?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

With the range of frameworks we have in place now and our experience in anticipating the demands for the different types of work including maintenance and knowledge of the estate, which is improving all the time as we invest in IT systems and track the data on the different buildings. I am very confident that we have good systems in place that give us flexibility, that continue to give the cost control, which has been all the way through-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It will not go over that €10 million.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

-----but that allows us to better forecast the total number of projects that are likely to come up under each of the framework contracts.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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With the new €10 million framework, Mr. Buckley reckons that the OPW has got its act together, knows what work needs to be done and will not come in over the €10 million. Is that right?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Does Mr. Bourke want to comment on that?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

A major effort has gone into the forecast in all of these frameworks and what might be drawn off them.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Was this recently?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

Over the years.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. Bourke serious?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

Absolutely massive.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Bourke cannot expect this committee to accept the OPW has any credibility in this matter. Let us just start from the €10 million. It is clear to everyone that the OPW has not done that. With each tender issued, the amount went over by multiples. Has the OPW got its act together with the new €10 million framework? Can Mr. Bourke guarantee that it will not blow taxpayers' money in multiples because it has not been able to adequately forecast the amount of work that needs to be done and the cost?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

With the new framework, the estimate of the value of that is based on what we know at the moment. Clearly with the previous framework the big unknown that could not have been predicted by anyone in this room or anywhere else was the onset of Brexit.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We know that to a certain amount but I am talking about from 2015 onwards. Year on year the OPW rolled over.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

Yes, and-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does the OPW have a preventive maintenance plan in place?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

We do.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Can that be furnished to us? Does Mr. Bourke have it here?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

We do not have it here, but we can certainly give the Deputy of full breakdown of how we go about our maintenance-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is there any way we could get it during this meeting? Surely there are enough OPW staff here to furnish us with it?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

There are 2,500 buildings and it would be very detailed.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I imagine the OPW would have its preventive maintenance plan altogether somewhere.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

It is done by district and by regions because of all the properties.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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How quickly can it be got to us? Could somebody e-mail it? Could a message be sent out so that we might have it before the close?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

We would have to get to the districts and the regions I presume.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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If it is that cumbersome to pull together, it would not do if someone were looking for it in a hurry now, would it?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

We can certainly give the Deputy the maintenance spend by region.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I asked if the OPW had a maintenance plan in place and the answer was "Yes". When I asked if it could be furnished to us, it turned out to be convoluted, was done by district and could not be easily obtained.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

All our preventive work is done through our districts.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is done in districts, but given the number of OPW staff, is there not one person who could actually say that he overseas that plan overall or is it just bits and pieces?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

It is not bits in pieces; it is just done by districts and regions.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Are they pulled together, the districts and divisions?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

At financial level, it is.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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However, it is not done in the OPW's preventive maintenance plan.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

Not on the individual-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That might be something the OPW might learn from.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

That we would centralise it.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, centralise it, but also if somebody was across all of it, supervising it, it might end up saving the taxpayer a hell of a lot more in the long run.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

There would be a lot of scrutiny on it at regional level. All jobs that-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It appears for all the good it does, when we look at-----

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Maybe I could come back in there. The Deputy is absolutely right to highlight the importance of preventive maintenance. That is the way we are moving as all modern maintenance organisations are doing - less reactive maintenance and more preventive maintenance.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The OPW has put a particular focus on it.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Yes. Most of our buildings are occupied by people. There would be a dialogue with the occupants as to what time it suited the occupants, that we had the funding and capacity available to come in, replace a roof, upgrade windows and so on.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Buckley for that. I am actually a bit-----

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

We are not in any way avoiding the questions.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I know that. I am a bit embarrassed for the OPW saying that it has a preventive maintenance plan but that plan has not come together for districts, regions or whatever and that nobody in particular is overseeing that plan as a whole given the amount of money.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

It is being overseen and-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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However, Mr. Buckley cannot furnish us with that. Mr. Bourke has said it is in districts, it is here and everywhere, but not available.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Not at all. I am thinking of a short-form summary that might be of value to the Deputy.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Could the OPW co-ordinate its preventive maintenance plan from the districts, regions, the whole lot and furnish us with that by the end of today?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

No. It will not be possible today, but we can certainly do that. It is simply because of its complexity and the need to have it in a form that is readable and understandable.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can Mr. Buckley give us a date when we might have it?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I can check with my colleague and come back-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How cumbersome is it to pull it together? Could we have it by mid-January?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

Mid-January.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. Bourke give a commitment that we will have it and we will not need to chase him up on it?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

Certainly, the Deputy will not need to chase me up on it.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to touch on the convention centre farce and the shortfall. Was it the OPW or the Department that gave permission to not withdraw that money or not decrease the money because of the shortfall in international delegates? Who gave permission to spend more than the contract stipulated?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

As I explained, a decision has not been taken yet on what-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask Mr. Buckley to explain. Did the OPW deduct the money as per the contract?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Perhaps Mr. Bourke might take this.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

We did not deduct but that was not done as a result of what was stipulated in the contract. There is a contracted amount that must be paid and then, under various circumstances-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We know that. There was a shortfall in international delegations.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

Yes but there were other things as well.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A sum of €1.32 million.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

We did not deduct it because that issue has not been fully determined yet. It is extremely complex.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the contract not crystal clear?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

No. It is not.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What sort of legal advice is the OPW seeking?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

We have our own legal advisers on this.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I do not understand. If a contract is drawn up and if it says if there is a shortfall in international delegates coming that the State pays less and that money can be taken back. We should bear in mind this is taxpayers' money.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

I agree.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Bourke is saying that because the contract is so convoluted and complex the OPW did not take the money back.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

No.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wrote down what Mr. Buckley said. He said it is a complex matter and the OPW is seeking legal advice. If the contract and the stipulations are clear, why would the OPW need to seek further legal advice? I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General about this in a moment. Is it not the case that the OPW was found out for being happy enough to let even more taxpayers' money than it has already wasted go down the tube? Why the reluctance?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

It is because there is a complexity around the issue.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the complexity?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

It is that the Government, as a result of the Covid crisis that hit this country which stopped all travel, including international travel-----

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We know that.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

-----and the convention business died.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The contract is still the contract.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

It is but it has to be interpreted and read in the context of the prevailing environment.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is there not an amount of money from 2022 to 2023 that should have been deducted?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

That will be handled as per the contract next year. When the international conference delegate numbers are agreed then the deductions kick in next year.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to come in on this briefly. Is it a complex matter? Is there a requirement to seek further legal advice or is it pretty much clear-cut that this money should have been deducted? Was this lackadaisical?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

My interpretation is that the money should have been deducted and that this specific matter is relatively clear. It goes back to the sharing of risks when you get into a contract and that is why it takes a long time to put a contract like this in place. You have to figure out who is carrying out what risk. Sometimes the risk goes against you and you pay the price. If the boot was on the other foot and the Convention Centre Dublin was entitled to a greater payment then it would demand to receive it.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Without a doubt. The State's financial watchdog is telling the OPW that this contract was clear, that the OPW did not follow through and that it was lackadaisical with taxpayers' money. The OPW could not give a hoot or a damn. How dare they.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the Deputy to treat the witnesses with respect.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes but we have gone through the other tenders where there is wanton waste of taxpayers' money. Here was a contract that stipulated clearly that the money was to be handed back. The witnesses have come in with an attitude of "Who shot John" and have said that complex legal advice has been sought. We have asked the State's financial watchdog whether or not that contract was clear and we have been told it was. The OPW was lackadaisical with taxpayers' money.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I invite Mr. Buckley to respond briefly to that.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

That is incorrect as stated.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the Comptroller and Auditor General incorrect?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

May I respond? It is important that I respond.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Respond to the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let the witness respond.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If he responds to the Comptroller and Auditor General's comment.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He will respond to both.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I will respond to all the comments that were made in that protracted period. The most important thing to understand is that when you have a long 25 or 30-year contract like we have, if a dispute or issue arises along the way, that is clarified and agreed with the parties and it is addressed in the contract. While that is being done, the correct legal practice is that you do not stop the payments first. Rather, you continue to pay the contractual amounts and you deal with the dispute separately. It is a technicality - and I am sure the Comptroller and Auditor General will agree with this - in any disputed contract you deal with the dispute but while that is being dealt with you are legally obliged to carry on servicing the contract as written. There are 14 years in this and there is no mad urgency to it. It is important to get this correct. We do not want to be in complex legal disputes that cost money and we will get this correct. It is not as simple as just applying the terms. The contract itself is simple but the circumstances are not, as Mr. Bourke explained. We will address this.

There is a balance here. In this committee we are looking at the financial terms of the contract and, as the Accounting Officer I also have to look at the overall project of the Convention Centre Dublin and its success in building delegate numbers so that when that comes back to the State in 14 years time it will be a healthy business that the State can then pick up and drive forward. That is the balance.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can we be kept up to date on that particular issue, that payment and what progress is being made with it?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Yes.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I welcome the witnesses. I want to focus on flooding and flood prevention. I ask the witnesses to outline for me what the OPW's value-for-money measures are regarding passing ongoing flood works. What would be standard? I only have ten minutes so I ask the witnesses to do that in a relatively succinct way.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I will do my best to be succinct. As the Deputy knows, we have a large number of flood risk projects of different shapes and sizes running in parallel. There is a series of value-for-money controls in those projects. First, we go through the procurement system twice. We do so once to build a design team with all the expertise needed for the particular project, which is a competitive process. We do so the second time when the project comes to construction. We go to tender to get the best construction contractors, the best price and the best quality for the State. During both of those phases we have project teams of experts who are involved in regular project meetings, usually on a monthly basis. They are also engaged in project oversight, credit controls-----

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What about after construction?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Then there is maintenance in place that is either carried out by the OPW or often by the local authorities on our behalf.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I am asking if, after the completion of a flood project, the OPW goes back to look at value-for-money measures and whether the project was effective, along with doing an assessment to ensure the risk of flooding has been dissipated in these areas and has not had an unforeseen impact somewhere else.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Yes.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I ask Mr. Buckley to outline that for me relatively quickly.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

They are important processes and I will take the last point first. At the design phase we rely on computer modelling to assess the hydrology of the river involved and what the impact of the works will be. We would immediately, on completion of a flood scheme, or continuously, monitor levels in rivers. We have a system of water monitoring.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What does "continuously" mean? Is that every 18 months or every three years, for example? The OPW is also tasked with collating flood maps or data; is that correct?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Yes.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What is the timing of that? Let us say the OPW finishes a significant project-----

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

It is hourly and daily.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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It is hourly.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

We monitor the water levels in all of the main rivers in Ireland. We work closely with the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, but we run a network of gauges, automatic and manual, across the country. That feeds into information on what river levels are and what the likelihood of flooding is. It also allows us to immediately monitor the performance of any completed scheme. On the point the Deputy made, we must ask if the problem is pushed down the river somewhere and make sure the design has been effective. If there are any tweaks-----

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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What happens if the design has not been effective?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Thankfully that has not been the case. I am not aware of any such instances.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about Skibbereen?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

What about Skibbereen?

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have a few examples but let us take Skibbereen. There was a significant flood there in 2009 when 120 homes were flooded. Then a major project was done in 2016. From what I can see the number quoted for the project was €18 million, although I notice in the numbers we have received today that it is €34.5 million. Then there was a significant flood in 2020. The original project was a 200-year flood prevention plan.

It was completed around 2018. That is two years before it flooded significantly again, so that is a 1% effectiveness. Judging from the OPW's own numbers today, we are talking about nearly double the cost now. I presume there are ongoing works. I am sure there is some kind of ratio calculation there about a 1% effectiveness versus a 200-year cost. In this case the flood project comprised 3 km of flood walls, 4 km of embankments and a number of storm water pumping stations. Obviously, most of that work was not effective in 2020. What happens in such cases?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I will bring in my colleague Mr. Jim Casey, who might have more specifics on Skibbereen. I am not familiar with it myself.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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We could take other examples, but it is useful to have a real-world example.

Mr. Jim Casey:

The Skibbereen scheme is substantially complete, providing nearly 100% of the intended protection for which the scheme was deigned. However, flooding occurred at the N71 Cork road during the August 2020 event-----

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would Mr. Casey describe that as fluvial-----

Mr. Jim Casey:

-----due to the lack of capacity of the existing drainage network.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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It is fluvial flooding then, not coastal flooding.

Mr. Jim Casey:

No, it is pluvial flooding and outside the scope of the flood relief schemes. The Deputy will appreciate that the OPW deals predominantly with flood relief schemes associated in the case of Skibbereen with river or fluvial flooding, so the flooding in Skibbereen-----

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Skibbereen experiences coastal and fluvial flooding, so it is like a lot of areas, particularly in Cork and Dublin, where those two impacts are at play.

Mr. Jim Casey:

Correct, and the OPW designs schemes to address both fluvial or river flooding and coastal flooding in the case of Skibbereen but not to address pluvial flooding or flooding arising from inadequacies of the drainage system. That would be a matter for the local authority.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The scheme failed, though.

Mr. Jim Casey:

No, the scheme did not fail. The source-----

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It met the terms of reference. Who sets the terms of reference for projects?

Mr. Jim Casey:

If I may clarify, the scheme did not fail. The-----

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Skibbereen flooded.

Mr. Jim Casey:

Yes, but it did not flood from a river or coastal flooding source. It flooded-----

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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I am sure the businesses in Skibbereen are not really worried as to why.

Mr. Jim Casey:

It is important to understand the mechanism of flooding. I have clarified that the OPW does not design flood relief schemes for pluvial flooding. That is within-----

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
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We are told that millions are being spent in Skibbereen, originally €18 million and now almost double that, on protecting the town. As I said, we could talk about areas in Cork or elsewhere. There are loads of towns where this is happening. The people of Skibbereen saw major works and a lot of concrete poured, yet the town flooded in 2020. My question to Mr. Casey is, regardless of whether Waterways Ireland, the ESB or whoever else it might be has some tangential issue here or whether there is a lack of drainage, the OPW, ultimately, is tasked as a body with flood prevention and has spent the money and the town flooded. Since that has happened, what is the plan now? What are the measures in place? The cost-benefit analysis here does not stand up. It does not matter whose fault it was. Also, just in bare terms, the risk does not stand up in respect of the houses that are there. The OPW is tasked with protecting people, so what is the plan going forward and what measures does it have in place to-----

Mr. Jim Casey:

I understand the question.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to finish. We can talk about how the OPW works tangentially with local authorities, the ESB, Waterways Ireland or whoever it might be. That may be part of the answer, but what is being said is the flood scheme did not fail although Skibbereen was flooded.

Mr. Jim Casey:

I am happy to answer the Deputy's question if she gives me an opportunity to do so. She has asked me what we are doing now after that event. We are engaging with Cork County Council to understand the nature of that particular event. We do that as a matter of course. In fact, we ask local authorities to report to us after every flood event to give an explanation of the nature of it. We assess that in conjunction with the local authorities and we are doing that in the case of Skibbereen. If further measures are required, we will ensure they are brought forward.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

At the moment, though, the OPW does not have a plan in that particular case.

Mr. Jim Casey:

I have just outlined that we are engaging with Cork County Council on this-----

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I accept that the OPW is talking to the council, but my question is whether there is a document somewhere with a plan for that area that deals with what happened in 2020.

Mr. Jim Casey:

I think that is being led by Cork County Council, so that question would be better put directly to those who are leading at Cork County Council. What I can say is we are engaging with the council on the matter and have steering committees in place with it to ensure appropriate solutions to those problems are brought forward in the most timely manner.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Coming back-----

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, I want to come back to Mr. Buckley because I have only 40 seconds left and I have so many more questions. To be clear, where the OPW has an instance like this, of course responsibility is shared and it is a complex issue, but you could say that about every single area in the country. I remember the floods around the Shannon. There was a lake around my brother's house. The ESB was involved in that. Where huge amounts of money have been spent and an area has still flooded, even if it is outwith the terms of the OPW's own flood project, how does the OPW measure the effectiveness of the flood relief capital projects? If the OPW is simply washing its hands and saying that is outside its terms of reference, that does not really help the people in the 120 houses.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

The Deputy raises a very good point and it just emphasises the huge complexity of the flooding issue in Ireland, even without the climate change dimension, which is escalating the whole problem even more. I reassure the Deputy, however, that we work very closely with Irish Water in particular because drainage is a huge factor and, as the Deputy will know, Irish Water has an enormous investment programme in place to upgrade the drainage system and to separate runoff water from the main sewer systems in many towns in Ireland, and they are very often the same towns where we do flood schemes. Bandon is another example.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. A lot of concrete has been poured in Bandon as well.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

We can come back to the design of the schemes, but on the Deputy's point, we link in with the local authorities, Irish Water and other agencies involved. I certainly do not want to say it is somebody else's responsibility and, therefore, we are not interested. That is not the case at all. My understanding of 2020, which I was just recalling while the Deputy was speaking, was that in August 2020 there was an incredible downpour of rain in the Skibbereen area. That cannot be predicted and will happen, I am afraid, more and more often. It can happen anywhere in the country. It happens all over Europe. It is almost impossible to design for that. I reassure the Deputy, however, that the flooding that occurred in Skibbereen was on the N71, the approach road, due to culverts on the road and, to the best of my understanding, properties were not flooded during that event, thankfully.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, they were not. To be clear, I never suggested they were. I was talking about the 2009 event. Chair, I want to come in for a second round-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Briefly.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

The 2009 event was before the flood scheme was completed.

Neasa Hourigan (Dublin Central, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know. I want to be clear, though. My point was that the OPW nationally is tasked with flood prevention regardless of the terms of reference it sets on its own projects.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Yes. We are the lead agency and we co-ordinate with everybody else.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for attending and dealing with the queries raised. I wish to continue on the flood relief issue. My understanding was ten flood relief capital projects were ongoing in 2021. There was accumulated expenditure of €173 million, but my understanding is those ten projects will now cost around €213 million. Where are we with those ten projects? Are they finished? What is the final outturn in respect of the total cost?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

While my colleague tries to check the data on specifically those ten, I will explain that we go through a five-stage process in developing all those schemes. In the first three phases we evaluate options and go through the planning process and the detailed design. Only at the end of that stage can the cost of the scheme be estimated with any real accuracy. Therefore, it is not that the cost has increased, that we are paying more for the same thing. It is that the scope of the works needed to give the protection required has been greater than was initially-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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These are projects that were up and running in 2021. Are they now complete and is there a final outturn for the total cost?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

We can certainly check that for the Deputy. As for recently completed projects, the Douglas-Togher scheme, for example. was opened recently and Bandon is now fully complete. Specifically on those ten, unless Mr. Casey has it to hand, we might have to come back to the Deputy.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, I ask Mr. Buckley to get back to me. I will move on. I refer to the timescale of the projects. Two specific projects in my constituency are the Glashaboy flood relief scheme and the Blackpool flood relief scheme. The Glashaboy scheme went out for tender before the whole project was abandoned and we are now back to square one. What is the timeframe now? Glashaboy was affected by serious flooding more than ten years ago and here we are, ten years on, and still absolutely nothing has been done.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I will ask Mr. Casey to comment on that one.

Mr. Jim Casey:

I thank the Deputy for the question. There were particular issues in relation to Glashaboy. In fact, we issued a contract letter of award to the preferred tender-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know all of that.

Mr. Jim Casey:

I am answering-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are ten years from the time this major event occurred and we still do not have a contract in place. What is the timescale now for having a contract in place?

Mr. Jim Casey:

I am answering the Deputy’s question. The timescale is that we expect to be going to tender before the end of this year, possibly next week.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was it not the case that the OPW prepared the tender documents previously, sent them out and tenders were submitted to take on the contracts?

Mr. Jim Casey:

Yes.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It then turned out that the people who were to do the contract withdrew from it. Therefore, all the documentation was already prepared. Why not invite in tenders within the following two or four weeks? Why does it take another eight months to again invite tenders?

Mr. Jim Casey:

The reason we took longer to prepare tenders than what the Deputy outlined is that we changed the scope of work with a view to completing the project earlier than we would otherwise have done. We took some of the works out of the main contract in order to do them ahead of this next main contract. We assessed that, overall, the completion date for the works would be accelerated and we would recover some of the otherwise lost time. Just to clarify, the reason for not being able to proceed with the contract was due to hyperinflation and unusual circumstances.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am aware of that. If the OPW decides to invite tenders this week or within the next ten days, what is the timescale for all the documentation to come in, that is, submissions received from those who are interested in carrying out the work, and the acceptance time period?

Mr. Jim Casey:

That would be of the order of three to four months, I expect.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The big complaint I have from contractors is the time it takes from when the tenders come in to when the office accepts and decides on who should be awarded the contract. What timescale are we normally talking about?

Mr. Jim Casey:

We are normally talking about one to two months. That is assuming there are no complexities and complications with the tender process.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not what is happening in contracts. My understanding is that with many contracts - I have come across them in relation to schools and other Departments - there is a huge delay from the time the submissions are received to the time the decision is taken. We had inflation in the intervening period and the contractors could not do the project at the price they submitted.

Mr. Jim Casey:

I can only speak to the flood relief scheme tenders. Assuming there are no complications, they typically take up to two months. However, there are exceptions and there can be complications in tender processes. In fact, one may often need to seek clarifications in relation to tenders, etc. Depending on the degree of complication, it can take longer.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I might be able to assist. I will bring in Mr. O’Connor. Mr. Casey is talking about flood risk contracts, which are single stage. However, often for schools, which the OPW does not do-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am aware of that.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

-----there is a two-stage tender.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am saying that there is a huge delay.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Yes, and I am explaining why.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Across Government Departments, there is a huge delay from the time contracts are submitted to acceptance by the Department, whether it is the OPW, the Department of Education or the Department of Health. I am just saying we are now in a different timescale because of inflation and there is a need to put in place contracts at an earlier time than what the current process seems to be.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Yes. It would be great to take the opportunity explain the complexity of a two-stage contract in a period of high inflation. Mr. O’Connor will explain it.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

The key bit here is the Government forms a contract and it does not allow us to sign the main contract until also the specialist subcontractor tenders are done. The way that is set up at the moment is one gets the main contract and then goes out for the mechanical, electrical and-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I will just pick up the issue of specialist subcontractors. In the past five days, I was approached by a subcontractor who was cheaper than other subcontractors for a particular project. The OPW instructed the main contractor not to accept this subcontractor even though it had done work previously on OPW projects. It was cheaper and cost-effective, yet the main contractor was instructed not to take it on. Why would that arise?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

I do not know. The Deputy is telling me something in the abstract. If he wants to give me particular names, I will answer about particular names.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will do that. This subcontractor is absolutely gobsmacked that it is-----

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Is this with regard to the Ukrainian project?

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. I will give Mr. O’Connor the details on it.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

I would be very surprised. The Deputy may not have the full element. People tend to tell their own stories to suit themselves. We would be happy to look at it and give a factual account.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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What is the timescale for agreeing subcontractors?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

That is the problem. When the Government forms a contract, that needs to be adjusted. Deputy Murphy will know that from projects in Leinster House on which he has worked with us on. In the set-up that is there at the moment, one has to get the main contract and then the mechanical, electrical and other specialists. Until all of those are co-aligned, one cannot place the main contract.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Let us compare it with what is happening in the private sector. We seem to have projects that will take the OPW six or seven years and the private sector will get them done in three years. Should we not be looking at how the private is able to deliver in a far shorter timeframe?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

There are a number of issues. I think the OPW proved in Brexit and what we are doing with the Ukrainian project that we can move at great speed - faster than anybody else. However, we have to operate within the rules given to us. The rules given to us by Government are the Government form of contract. That is a flawed document in my clear view and it needs to be looked at. We have to work within that.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Has the OPW requested that a review be carried out in order to assist it? I fully understand that it wants to get on with projects as well. As Mr. O’Connor said, it has to work within the rules. Has it asked for that issue to be reviewed and a more up-to-date procedure put in place?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Yes. Twelve months ago last June, we wrote a comprehensive report on our experiences and gave that to the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, and we await a response.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In June of what year?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Last year.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Has the OPW followed up on that?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Yes, but we have not received a response.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Which Department does that come in under? Is it the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

That would be the OGP's parent Department.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will return to-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy has gone over time. He can ask one question.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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On the OPW flood relief projects in Cork, I believe €109 million has been spent in recent years. On projects currently in the pipeline, how many will have work commenced by this time next year? I am referring to the Glashaboy and Blackpool schemes and a number of other projects around the county. There are 150 projects scheduled to be done between now and 2030 across the entire country at an estimated cost of €1.3 billion. I am a little concerned about how long it is taking to get projects into place.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Mr. Casey will address that point.

Mr. Jim Casey:

The Deputy will be aware that we have recently opened two flood relief schemes in Cork. The first, the Douglas flood relief scheme in Cork city, opened a few weeks ago and the second is the Bandon flood relief scheme.

In terms of the question about schemes that are likely to start soon in Cork, I estimate that we could make a start next year with the Glashaboy scheme, subject to a satisfactory tender process, as well as, Morrison's Island, subject to conclusion of the planning process, which we expect is imminent.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Mulvihill is an official who is here to represent the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. Can Ms Mulvihill reply to the Deputy's question about Government contracts? I ask, as Mr. O'Connor has said that the issue was raised with her Department last June.

Ms Marie Mulvihill:

I work on the OPW Vote. I understand, from Mr. O'Connor, that the matter has gone to the OGP. I am happy to follow up with the OGP and respond to the committee.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, I thank Ms Mulvihill..

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Can Mr. Buckley tell me whom I should ask about the cost of the customs facility in Rosslare Europort?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

The Deputy can start with me and we will see where we go from there.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does the OPW own the facility?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Is the Deputy referring to the Kilrane facility outside of the port?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Yes, I do not know of any other customs facility in Rosslare. Does the OPW own the Kilrane facility?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

There is the existing small customs facility in the port and we are building a major project there at the moment, which is why I asked.

The Kilrane site and buildings are owned by the OPW. It is operated by the four Departments involved.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How much did it cost?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Again, we can check the exact figure.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Someone is checking the figure; I have about ten minutes left.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

The figure is in the region of between €10 million to €15 million.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is a big region. Can I have the figure?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I can either get the Deputy the exact figure or a quick figure to keep time short. Let us say it is €10 million.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What was the basis for the building in terms of size and the amount of ground?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I could ask Mr. O'Connor to come in on that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Briefly, because the clock is ticking. Mr. Bourke said that we could not prepare for Brexit, which seems unusual. Somebody prepared by building a vast facility in Rosslare.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

To put that in context, that was to provide facilities for Rosslare as an interim to the project that is now out to tender, which is the complete renewal Rosslare Europort. So it was an interim process. When the new port is built we will re-use and repurpose that site for other purposes and the buildings are designed as such. The buildings that are there can be converted to many other uses, immediately for storage and immediately for other elements.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I accept that. There has been a proposal by a lot of other stakeholders, such as Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, the National Transport Authority, NTA, and Wexford County Council, that the current facility in Rosslare be divided and used for the parking of HGV vehicles under the Road Safety Act. Has the OPW been involved in that?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

We are aware of that but that decision rests with the Department of Transport, which controls the ports and that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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But the OPW has no difficulty with that. Has the OPW been asked, in any way, to construct the site to give effect to the parking of HGV vehicles?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Our only input there was a number of months ago, when we were asked to facilitate. We spoke to the different Departments and they did facilitate HGV parking.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Did they?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

They did, yes.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

They allowed HGVs to park on the site that were originally parking in the village.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is the first that I have heard about it. Trucks are parking on the side of the road. The facility has not been provided in the way that an undertaking was given here at this committee, as well as other meetings of the transport committee. That facility still has not been provided. I ask Mr. O'Connor to give the committee, for the benefit of road safety, the correspondence the OPW has had from TII and the other stakeholders on preparing the facility. This is not about me getting on to the OPW; this is about joining the dots and giving value for money if we spend €10 million. I was involved in the haulage sector for 25 years so I know that there is never more than four to five trucks at the facility but there is parking spaces for 54 trucks. We do not need another facility to park HGVs. We need to give value for money to the Exchequer to utilise that space. In particular, at this point in time, we should not have anybody parked on the side of the road where there is an extremely busy community. There is a school that has over 300 children located right beside the facility and we should not have trucks anywhere near the roadside when the facility is virtually idle. I do not consider the facility to be value for money at this point in time. Maybe it will be in the future but at this point in time the facility is underutilised. We can save the Exchequer a lot of money by utilising it to its full potential because it is going to be at least five years before we see infrastructural change in Rosslare port. I do not want to know, Mr. O'Connor. The bottom line is that the facility is underutilised. The committee is here to discuss value for money and public Exchequer funding. The facility needs to be prepared and I need to see the correspondence to get that work done.

I wish to discuss the flooding of Bridgetown. Last year, on Christmas Day, we had serious floods in Bridgetown and I suppose this is Mr. Casey's area. I heard Mr. Buckley mention certain monitoring stations. Can Mr. Casey tell me which monitoring station did not work, thus resulting in Bridgetown and surrounding areas being flooded on Christmas Day?

Mr. Jim Casey:

The Bridgetown event last Christmas was the result of very intense and extreme rainfall. It was of a nature that is almost impossible to predict given its convective nature. High-intensity events of short duration can happen. Tragically, there was a loss of life there and our sympathies go out to the family of Billy Kinsella and his work colleagues at Wexford County Council.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is very important, Mr. Casey, and I appreciate that. What is being done differently so we do not see any loss of life or flooding for 2022? What has changed? What has been done?

Mr. Jim Casey:

In June 2022, Wexford County Council made a submission to the OPW. It was an application for funding under our minor works scheme for floodgates and barriers to be installed at impacted properties. Funding of €157,000 was approved by the OPW in July 2022. Wexford County Council has advised that it expects delivery in December. However, delivery of some of the larger barriers may be delayed until the new year.

In September of this year, Wexford County Council submitted an additional minor works application to engage consultants to complete a feasibility study on flood impact on the village, to propose mitigation and prevention measures, and to provide preliminary costings and commence a planning strategy in relation to that. The OPW has been engaging with Wexford County Council on the scope of that study.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. Casey, why was that not done in 2021?

Mr. Jim Casey:

I would say that these very extreme events-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No.

Mr. Jim Casey:

They were unprecedented in relation to Bridgetown, I would say.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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My first question that I asked, which Mr. Casey did not answer, was on what monitoring station was used or do we use. Clearly, it is hourly, according to Mr. Buckley. What station do we look at to see what is happening for the Wexford Bridgetown area? What station tells us that there could be an issue?

Mr. Jim Casey:

We do have an intensive network of rain gauges right across the country-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is not in County Donegal.

Mr. Jim Casey:

-----including in the vicinity of Bridgetown. I cannot give the Deputy the precise name of that station but we can get back to her on that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does Mr. Buckley know? Does anybody else know? The officials will find the information, as there are 15 people from Mr. Casey's Department here. The fact that we cannot get answers when there are 15 people officials present is gross. If we cannot get an answer then why are 15 people here? Why, in the name of God? It is a farce that an entourage is brought to a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts to sit in the balcony. I mean no disrespect to them and I am sure that they are all here to assist but for what I have no idea. I know that everybody is getting paid today but what reason they are here is beyond me because I cannot get an answer to my simple question.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Chairman, this is a very pejorative way of behaving. We are here to answer questions.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What is pejorative, Mr. O'Connor?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

We are not here to be harangued.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Pardon?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy asked where is the station that monitors the area. Can the officials answer that question?

Mr. Jim Casey:

I am happy to answer that.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please hold the answer for a second.

Mr. Jim Casey:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can we have a reply to the question during the meeting?

Mr. Jim Casey:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy can continue with her questioning.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I will return to my question. When it comes to flooding, we seem all the time to be closing the stable door when the horse has bolted.

Why do we know what the issue is now? I have spoken to the locals and been there. I spent Christmas Day in Bridgetown and Enniscorthy and my Christmas holidays last year visiting people who were put out of their homes. They were not compensated or restored in any way to where they were before this event. Their criticism of the OPW is that it was all preventable. In most cases, prevention is better and cheaper than the cure. The point is that the sluice gates which are not working and no longer manned in Bridgetown are now the answer. That is what it seems. The locals, who were never engaged, were well aware that this was the issue and had warned of it on a number of occasions. It is now a year later and in that period, action has not been taken.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Deputy Murphy is highlighting the core issue, which is that every community in Ireland, all over the country, is at risk of flooding, whether river, rain or coastal flooding. It is a huge problem which will escalate enormously in the next while.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am asking the one question that Mr. Buckley cannot answer, which is why the OPW did not do this in 2021. Why is it being done after the horse has bolted? From everything I have read, that seems to be the trademark of the OPW. It has happened in Enniscorthy, Blackwater and now in Bridgetown, to a severe degree.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I would not accept that.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. Buckley would not accept it.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

No, we have just reported-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What would Mr. Buckley say about Enniscorthy if he does not accept that? Was he in Enniscorthy last St. Stephen's Day and for the week post Christmas?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I would be down in Enniscorthy-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Was Mr. Buckley there for the week after last Christmas? Was Mr. Buckley there at any stage?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask Deputy Murphy to let the witness answer the question.

Mr. Jim Casey:

Can I answer that?

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No, I did not ask Mr. Casey. I asked Mr. Buckley if he was in Enniscorthy for the week after Christmas last year.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I was not there that week. I have been there before and since then. I am familiar with the details of that scheme. One can pick that scheme and that town or many other towns that have not been protected but one can also pick the Douglas-Togher scheme that Mr. Casey just mentioned.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

One can also pick Clonakilty-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am asking questions that I want answers to.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

-----where people can sleep easy in their beds this winter when the rain is bad.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The OPW criticised the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform about the fact that it did not pass the OPW's scheme and give effect to what it prepared for the Enniscorthy flood relief.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

We were certainly disappointed.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Mr. Buckley explain why the OPW was disappointed?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Allow the witness time to answer.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I thank the Chair. It will take a minute to explain the Enniscorthy situation.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am familiar with it but Mr. Buckley can explain it for the benefit of the committee.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Enniscorthy is at severe risk of flooding. We have been working for a long time, as the Deputy knows, to the frustration of the community, the council and everybody else because of the challenges faced there. We had a scheme ready to go in 2009 but it involved high walls along the side of the river, which is understandably unacceptable to the community, because while there is a danger to human life and property, there is a community living in the town and it is part of the infrastructure of the town.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

If I may complete the question, we started from scratch and developed an alternative scheme. That involved removing the Séamus Rafter bridge and building a new bridge outside town. From an environmental perspective, which is difficult territory, it involved deepening the riverbed. That riverbed has trace amounts of fresh oyster pearl mussels, lamprey and vegetation. This is always a subjective matter of opinion. We and our experts felt that this could be compensated and would restore two or three years after the work was done on the river. The experts used by the Minister in making the consent assessment came to a different conclusion. That can happen. The world is changing. We are totally focused on human life, properties and risk.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I accept that. I have one more question.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

The Deputy made points about protecting the communities in Bridgetown and elsewhere. We have to balance that-----

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How much did it cost to put that proposal forward?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

The total planned budget for the scheme is €50 million. Mr. Casey is raising his hand and may have an answer about the cost of the proposal.

Mr. Jim Casey:

The expenditure for Enniscorthy to date in 2022 is just under €150,000.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is not what I am asking. I am asking about the proposal the OPW put forward that was rejected by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. How much did that cost?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

That is what Mr. Casey is answering.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That proposal had nothing to do with the flooding or damage. The proposal cost €150,000.

Mr. Jim Casey:

All of the work up until that time cost €150,000.

Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does that include all the environmental studies and everything else?

Mr. Jim Casey:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Our time is short so I would appreciate succinct replies. I refer to the Convention Centre Dublin. It is not a place I want to go back to. We are happy to be here. We were happy to be accommodated at the time but I do not have fond memories of it.

As the Comptroller and Auditor General's report states, the Covid-19 pandemic was an unforeseen event. It also states that under the terms of the public private partnership agreement, there is provision for a modest reduction in the unitary charge payments when the number of international delegates falls below a minimum standard. I have a particular interest in one area, which is the bonuses paid in 2017, 2018 and 2019. Quite a substantial amount, totalling several hundred thousand, was paid. Was that paid to all eight directors? Was it equally shared?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I have no idea. We manage the contract. We have no responsibility for the internal operation and financial controls of the company involved.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Convention Centre Dublin really only exists because of the unitary payment. That is the reality. Who has oversight of something like bonus payments? I found it quite difficult to understand why a bonus payment would be made at all. Where is the oversight of that?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

As it is a public private partnership, the business affairs of the other party, which actually runs the Convention Centre Dublin, are not something that we become involved in. We cannot become involved in them. We oversee the conduct of the project agreement, which is a 250-page legal document which places a certain onus on people to run it in a particular manner, to have international conference delegates, ICDs, to have it open, and so on. Outside that, the matter of individual personnel, how it hires people and how it remunerates people is not something we can become involved in. It goes back to what the Comptroller and Auditor General said earlier. When the State brings in private sector people, they do business in their own way. How much they pay their own people and who they hire or dismiss is not something we can become involved in.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will have to pursue this in a different direction. I find it extraordinary that bonuses would be paid.

I have asked on a number of occasions about Military Road and the facility there. I pass it reasonably regularly and keep a close eye on it. I know people have moved there. The provision there is less than would have been available in Harcourt Square. Have people completely decanted from Harcourt Square at this stage?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Yes. All the gardaí are out as of a week and a half ago.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay. What is going on with Clyde House in Blanchardstown? I am trying to get an overview of how much this is actually costing. We have a rough idea of what the budget for Military Road was but it does not accommodate all the personnel. I want to see what other buildings are being brought into use. Presumably Clyde House is one of those buildings.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

I am glad the Deputy asked because it leads to a clarification. Two things have been mixed up. There is an increase in Garda numbers and the other matter is Military Road. Military Road replaced in full the facility in Harcourt Square with regard to the number of people and space.

What happened, following us getting planning permission for the project in 2017-18, was that the new Garda Commissioner brought in a set of new bureaus-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I really do not have the time for this kind of reply.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

-----and that is what led to the larger quantum. The number of people who were in the Harcourt Square building was 900.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I want to know how many people were in Harcourt Square and how many have not been accommodated at Military Road. This is just about how much this has cost. Is Clyde House part of that?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Clyde House is one of six other elements that are going there. I will explain the number. Some 860 to 900 people were in Harcourt Square. That number is now at Military Road, but all these other units that were set up and brought in under the new Garda plan will bring it up to about 1,400 additional people.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There was no future-proofing. Even the Garda Commissioner has said that, at this point, the Garda are under strength. It could be anticipated that as the population grows, services grow with that, including Garda numbers. Future-proofing something like these kind of buildings would have been key. I am trying to get-----

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

We did that. We did 10% proofing but, if you look at it, the numbers have gone up by more than 50%. What has happened in the past week is that 10% of Garda members have been moved into new facilities in three weeks. Some of them relate directly to Harcourt Square but the others are from completely different units.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Where are those who were formerly in Harcourt Square accommodated?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

They were in-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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All those who were in Harcourt Square have not gone to Military Road.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Harcourt Square had spread out. For instance, people were in the old Kevin Street Garda station, which they will now vacate to move to Military Road. Some are moving to block J in Garda headquarters, which is a historic building that has been fixed up. They will be going there.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How much did the OPW spend on Garda headquarters in the Phoenix Park?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

I will have to check that. Off the top of my head-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Will Mr. O'Connor come back to us on that?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will Mr. O'Connor tell me about Clyde Road?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

We are unhappy about Clyde Road. The-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What is the OPW unhappy about in terms of the cost of it?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

A property developer is there. What happened is that we are renting space for two Garda units. Part of the deal the developer who owns that property had with us was that in order for us to pay him, he had to make certain changes to two floors in the building. He has been behind time in doing that but the contingency we planned for has dealt with that. We have put the gardaí who would have gone to Clyde Road at the back of the building at 52 St. Stephen's Green, which we vacated a few months ago.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can we have a note on all of this-----

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Yes.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and on where people are being dispersed to? Is there enough car parking on the Military Road site? If not, how is that being accommodated?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

There are more than 225 car parking spaces, which is very significant. There is no other part of Dublin where that amount of car parking would be allowed to be built for a building of that size under the normal rules for car parking. What has happened and what gave rise to it is the way official cars are being used. That is not a thing for the OPW to-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are cars being fully accommodated on that site?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

All the official cars can be.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The phrase "official cars" piques my interest. What are we talking about in respect of unofficial cars?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

That means people's own cars.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there an arrangement anywhere else?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

We have looked at additional parking that the Garda has asked for. We have looked at that both at the adjoining site, which can take about 50 to 60 car parking spaces-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is there a cost associated with that?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

No, not for that. It is a matter of just giving that space over to them.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is not in public ownership.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

It is, yes. It is part of the same site. We are at one end of the triangle. It runs right down to Heuston Station so it is the lower part of it.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will ask about the cost of the demolition of the data centre that would have been just beside where the Military Road premises are now. What was the cost of demolishing that?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

What would be the cost-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What was the cost? The OPW would have had to-----

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

No, we have not demolished it.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is still there.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

That is important infrastructure so it is still in place. It did not have to be moved to facilitate Military Road.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

We will build a new data centre at Backweston in County Kildare, which will allow that to be removed in time.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How did the Intreo office in Dublin 7 come about? I understand that gardaí are to be accommodated in that building, which was formerly an Intreo centre and will now be used for some of the-----

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I will bring in Mr. Bourke on that point, from a property management perspective.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How did that come about? Did the OPW or the Garda identify the Intreo site? How did it happen?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

The Intreo office was closed in anticipation of refurbishment of the office. The Department of Social Protection was operating very successfully out of two other locations while it was getting ready to see the office being refurbished, when the issue of accommodation for the Garda arose urgently. We had to look right around the portfolio to see how the Garda could be facilitated. The Intreo office on Navan Road was there and available. It also took official cars and was well located.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It was due to reopen for the Department of Social Protection-----

Mr. Martin Bourke:

That was the original-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How did it come about that it was decided to use it? What was the context? Did the Garda approach the OPW? Was it costed? Was it evaluated?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

In the context of a particular unit of the Garda needing a home urgently, we had to look right across the estate and discuss the number of options with the Garda. The Garda confirmed that if that Intreo office was made available, it would suit the purposes-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How much was spent on it?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

How much was spent to move the Garda in?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

It was minimal.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Little or nothing.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

I can get the Deputy a figure but it was very small.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The refurbishment did not happen.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

No, it did not.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

All the IT that was there was reused.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I will make a point for clarification. In 2015, in the region of 600 gardaí occupied the Harcourt Square building. Future planning at that time was for 880 gardaí. Some 880 are accommodated at Military Road, which was brought in by Mr. O'Connor, Ms Edel Collins and the team, on time and on budget. It was a very satisfactory project.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Was it €86 million?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

The total budget was €86 million, which included the building cost and the fit-out. Approximately 600 gardaí, which is a very good thing for these very important national units that were added to the force in the intervening years, have also been accommodated through various measures that Mr. O'Connor outlined.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The National Asset Management Agency, NAMA, offered Harcourt Square - it had been leased - to the OPW for the Garda. Since the Military Road premises had to be built and other Garda units had to be accommodated, in retrospect, was it very poor decision-making not to buy the Harcourt Square building, given all that had to happen since as regards moving the Garda, when the offer to buy it would have been more favourable because it was being bought from NAMA?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

The contractor and people who were developing the Harcourt Square building are going to flatten it at the beginning of January. The reason is that the building has many problems. It dates from the 1960s, its layout is not suitable for anyone in modern-day terms and, from our point of view, it would have required such a deep retrofit that it would have cost as much as the new building. The new building on Military Road is an A2-standard building, whereas the Harcourt Square building is a level E. In energy cost and carbon footprint tax terms, it would be a noose around our necks to have it. In addition, Harcourt Square does not have specialist facilities. For instance, the Military Road premises has very specific things in the double basement that are particular to the execution of high-security work - I cannot say more than that - and that were not available to gardaí in Harcourt Square.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Military Road project come in on budget?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is good to hear that. We will suspend for just short of ten minutes. I ask people to co-operate, because we have a lot to get through. We do not want the witnesses to be here all day.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome our guests and wish them a happy Christmas. I will touch on flood relief schemes first. I have raised previously raised the Crossmolina flood relief scheme at this committee. Could Mr. Buckley give me an update regarding its current status and the timeline for this vital project for the community of Crossmolina?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

The Deputy is correct. I know he has raised this issue on many occasions representing the community's anxiety regarding getting this done because there has been severe flooding in Crossmolina in the past. It is a big and innovative scheme involving €35 million that is doing things we have done previously. It has met various obstacles working its way through the process but it is in a very good place at the moment. I will ask Mr. Casey to give the Deputy the current position on the scheme.

Mr. Jim Casey:

The scheme is with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform for a decision on confirmation of the scheme. As part of this process, in July, the Department completed a public consultation on additional information. The Department is assessing this information as part of its overall assessment of the application for confirmation and the Minister will revert with a decision to confirm, refuse or request additional information, which is expected shortly.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When was the confirmation process sent to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and how long did that process take with regard to the consent process? The Department engaged with consultants to review any submission that was part of the consultation process but it is a number of months on since July and that consultation process has been completed.

Ms Marie Mulvihill:

The second public consultation was completed in the summer. The submissions from that were sent to our independent environmental consultants. We continuously engage with them and they have completed their assessment of the submissions and are formalising and finalising their assessment of the overall scheme to make a recommendation to the Minister. This has not yet come to us from the consultants. When it does, it will be submitted to the Minister to either confirm, refuse or alter. We have yet to receive the final overall recommendation from the environmental consultants on the scheme. They review the submissions, examine the overall scheme and the environmental impact assessment report, and then make that recommendation to the Minister encompassing both.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What is the reason for the delay in the consultants submitting this? That has been going on for months.

Ms Marie Mulvihill:

Initially they were looking at the different aspects of the submissions received under the consultation to see whether they were in line with the requirements of the regulation as prescribed to the Minister and his role and responsibility. To provide some context-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Have they given an indication of when they expect this to be delivered to the Minister's desk?

Ms Marie Mulvihill:

We engage with them regularly and they have indicated that they hope shortly but I do not have-----

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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"Shortly" is not enough for the people I represent in Crossmolina. They are looking for a definitive timeline. Is it going to be January or February? Can we get some understanding regarding "shortly" because this project has seen delay after delay and there is considerable frustration among businesses and people. Ms Mulvihill must appreciate where they are coming from. This flooding happened in 2015 and it is seven years on from Christmas 2015. Every time I come in here looking for information, we are given generic responses in replies to parliamentary questions. Today, again, Ms Mulvihill has indicated that it will be done shortly. Can we get a definitive timeline?

Ms Marie Mulvihill:

I do not have a definitive timeline that I can give to the Deputy now but we have been engaging with them as recently as this week and we hope to see a submission from them with a formal recommendation to the Minister early in the new year. I do not have anything more definitive than that at this stage.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Given its importance because the risk of flooding is a serious issue, could Ms Mulvihill come back to Deputy Dillon within a week with an indicative timescale if she does not have a definite one? Is the Deputy happy with that?

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That would be very helpful.

Ms Marie Mulvihill:

I am happy to do that. Again, early in the new year is our hope but I will revert to the Deputy within a week.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In relation to the current flood relief schemes, has the OPW assessed the inflationary pressures surrounding projects that have been already committed to? What is the expectation into 2023 in terms of cost control and pressures that will come upon these projects?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Inflation is a huge issue for us all, but in the construction industry, in particular, it is enormous. As the Deputy may know, the price of concrete and structural steel has gone up significantly in the last while. This has impacted on all of our work, buildings and flood relief schemes. Mr. Casey just discussed with Deputy Colm Burke a scheme in Glashaboy in County Cork, where in the period between issuing the tender and awarding the contract, the contractor said it could not do the job for the price it had tendered because the prices had risen so much in the meantime, and we had to issue the tender again.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Has the OPW updated many costs for capital projects to date?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

We will be updating all the costs as they get to the different stages in the Public Spending Code. We do a cost estimation at stage 2, ahead of going to tender, and at stage 3 again before the contract is awarded.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What is the percentage increase in costs the OPW is seeing across some of the major projects?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

It is huge. Perhaps Mr. O'Connor can comment on the percentage increase in general.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

It is around 10% to 15% across the board, and on multinational enterprise, MNE, work it is around 15% to 18%.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the OPW's committed spend for 2023-----

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

It looks like it will slow.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----how much will that impact the budget?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

We do not know. It would be a guess.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does the OPW not have an estimate?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

For our major projects, we are putting in a percentage that is slightly higher than the current figure, as we know it, to allow for that.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What has the OPW committed to for major capital projects for 2023?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

All of our costings are done by quantity surveyors who work closely with the market expectation for construction. All the costings done since the middle of last year have increased the level of inflation that is calculated into the price. If a project is going to take three years to complete, the inflation will be calculated for each of those three years. That figure may rise and will be adjusted.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is there an inflationary clause within the contracts that have been signed with the approved suppliers?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

No. The feature of the public works contract is that it is a fixed-price contract. The contractor takes on board all of the risk at the time it agrees the contract. Arrangements have been made with the Office of Government Procurement to give an allowance for inflation for contracts being placed.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is that limiting the number of approved suppliers tendering for contracts then, if the contracts are fixed-price contracts?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

It is definitely causing issues at the moment.

Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is it causing specific delays with projects that are being put out to tender?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

The Glashaboy project would be a good example. I might refer to Mr. Casey, who can comment on the flood works side.

Mr. Jim Casey:

In summary, we are experiencing increasing costs in flood risk management projects of anywhere between 5% and 20% on most services and supply contracts. It has not affected us significantly this year, but we expect it will be more of an issue next year and the year after perhaps. On the Glashaboy contract, it was a hyperinflation issue that necessitated the collapse of that tender process. In that sense it did cause very significant delays on that particular project.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I think a large part of the Crossmollina project will be direct labour through the OPW manpower, which will give us some protection against the inflation issue there.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to ask a question on modular housing. How many modular units is the OPW providing for areas it is scheduled to provide in in the current period?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

We have been asked by Government to provide 500 rapid-build units for Ukrainian migrants. Indeed, we are now being approached by Government to provide an additional 200 and increase that figure to 700. It may even rise further. At the moment the commitment is to provide 500 units.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the projected expenditure on the 700 units?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I might defer to Mr. O'Connor on the detail of that programme.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

It will be in the order of €150 million.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the cost per unit, roughly?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Some of that is sensitive information.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I do not understand that.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

There are five contractors supplying and they vary in cost by-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are we talking about two-bedroom units or three-bedroom units?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

They are two-bedroom units.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the price range? I know Mr. O'Connor has to be careful in answering the question, but I ask for some indication of that.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

The range in the individual units is from €135,000 up to €155,000.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is a fairly wide range.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

It is. It is down to how well people are set up. The obvious would be why we do not go for the person who is the cheapest.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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From €35,000 to €150,000?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

The problem is that the person who is the cheapest cannot deliver on the quantity of units required all at once. We need five suppliers to provide the quantity required.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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From €35,000 to €150,000?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

The range is from €135,000 to €155,000.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry; apologies.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

There is a divergence of €20,000.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the lifespan of those units?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Structurally, 60 years, or probably more.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

I should also mention that they are designed completely in compliance with all the building regulations. People may be getting confused about the site layouts. The sites are laid out according to social housing standards. All the infrastructure of roads, parking, water and all of that is there as complete infrastructure.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will come to that in a minute. What is the energy rating of the units?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

They are A-rated.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are all A-rated?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Yes.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. How are the locations for the modular housing units chosen?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

We have been given a list of a number of sites by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth goes through that list and determines which sites are appropriate from a social point of view and given other considerations they must take into account, such as ensuring there is back-up support for the people moving to those sites. We become involved in the technical assessment. I will be discreet here and say that there was an issue with a number of the sites we were offered, which were not quite the calibre of site we would look for. Some of the sites were very poor quality.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it safe to assume the sites were selected by local authorities for housing?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

No, none of the sites we have been offered to date was chosen by local authorities for housing.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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From where is the supply of information to the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage coming? Local authorities?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Local authorities and other public agencies.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously, we are in a situation where we have to help people who are genuinely fleeing war. However, if the units are located on sites and the layout is as per local authority specification, design and all of that, have there been discussions with local authorities in respect of after use? There is a substantial cost involved in delivering each unit. It is close to the cost of a new build. I accept that Mr. O'Connor has said about there being a 60-year lifespan for each unit. Have there been discussions with local authorities on after use?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

The OPW provides the units. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth runs and looks after the units. Then a Government decision is made on what use they are put to. For instance, the units could be lifted out and sent to Ukraine or they could be moved elsewhere. They are a lift-and-plug type of unit.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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With the housing crisis here, we are going to need housing units. I do not want anything lifted anywhere, but I take Mr. Buckley's point. I do not think it is that easy to load the units onto the back of a truck and take them away either.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

It can be done.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

The sites that we are using are not sites that are designated for social housing development. They are marginal sites, which is challenging for the team. However, it means that we are developing sites and we are getting connections-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking a straightforward and specific question.

Have there been discussions with local authorities regarding the use of these buildings for social and affordable housing afterwards, because the Office of Public Works, OPW, is one of the parties involved? I would like a "Yes" or a "No". Is Mr. O'Connor aware of any such discussions?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

There has been discussion but it would be a decision for the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. That Department could ask the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage whether it wants these houses. All of the options are there.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

A very important point is that the sites Mr. O'Connor and the team are working on for the rapid-build homes are being designed in such a way that, if it is decided to remove the rapid-build homes, houses for social housing, such as terraced housing or three-bedroom semi-detached houses in the traditional style, could be put on the same sites. That element of the work, which accounts for quite a substantial portion of the €150 million, will be reusable and expand our social housing capacity.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The view being taken does consider the future.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Yes. It also considers value for money.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does the OPW have a role in choosing the locations? Obviously, Mr. O'Connor would keep an eye on their suitability from a technical point of view.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

We would. For instance, some of the sites did not have a water supply from Irish Water and so there was no point in looking at them. Other sites-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The OPW does not look at the social aspect. It does not consider whether there are medical facilities in the locality, whether there is capacity in the local schools or whether there is public transport locally. Obviously the OPW will look at the infrastructural criteria such as whether the storm sewers and foul sewers have capacity, what the road infrastructure is like and whether the site is on a flood plain. That is the kind of stuff the OPW would look at.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Yes. We have looked at all of those. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has looked at elements regarding the schools and support systems.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does the OPW have a role in local consultation?

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

Yes. We have been to a number of the meetings at the request of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I got letters about the site in Rathdowney in south Laois. The first I heard about it was when I saw it in one of the local newspapers. As a local Deputy, as soon as I had bought the paper, questions were coming into my office about it. It puts us in an awful position. I had to say to people straight up that I had only just learned about it having read about it in the local paper. While the OPW is not the sole decision maker in this and I understand that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has a role, there has to be some consultation at local level. Let me be clear; we have to try to help people who are genuinely fleeing war. I hope this war will be over as soon as possible. That is the hope of every sane person on the planet. There is no argument about that. There is capacity in the schools in Rathdowney but there are issues with some of the locations that have been chosen to date. I understand that, in ensuring quick response, perfection can sometimes be the enemy of progress. However, while I will not get into particular areas, some of the locations that have been chosen to date completely lacked the capacity needed and were not suitable for a whole plethora of reasons, rather than just one. There are six councillors in that district and, as far as I know, none of them were consulted. As a local Deputy, I had no answer for people. Nobody thought to lift the phone to us to tell us that such a field was bought and that such a thing was going to be done and to tell us the plan. Nobody sought an opinion or anything. There is a Government Minister of State in the constituency. I do not know if he knew.

Mr. Ciaran O'Connor:

The way it works is that the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is responsible for communication with the local groupings. At its request, we go along to those meetings. I personally have been at six. One of my staff is actually down at a meeting in Cork as we speak.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. O'Connor raise this with the Department at the next meeting he attends? I know it is not primarily the OPW's responsibility and I intend to raise it with the Department, as Deputies in the Dáil already have. It needs to be raised with the Department.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

It is a very good point. We are aware of this issue and will feed it back. The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is also aware. Deputy Dillon will know the site at Claremorris, which is an OPW site. It is proving very difficult in the time we have available. Rathdowney came through the process relatively recently. We have evaluated something like 73 sites in total around the country at this stage. Three quarters are not suitable for some reason or other. We are conscious all of the time of people sleeping in tents and the numbers coming in every day. It is very hard to balance that but we will pass the Chair's comments on to the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that, which is why I prefaced my remarks in the way I did. Could I have a briefing note within a week? I believe that is a fair timeline. The note should cover the size of the site in Rathdowney, what exactly is planned for it and the timeline for locating the first group there and should include any other information Mr. Buckley feels would be helpful. At least we will then be up to date, even if we were not consulted in the first instance. However, we need to be consulted. We live in a democracy. Whether people like us or not, the 160 of us are elected. I have family roots in that town. I have no answers for people. I cannot tell people anything. I have no information. It is totally unacceptable. I do not mean this in any disrespectful way but I have often said to council officials at public meetings that officials go home at 5 p.m. but that does not stop people ringing our phones or buttonholing us when they next see us, at mass or somewhere else, and asking what we have to say about something, why we did not raise a certain issue or whether we even know what is going on. A number of people rang the office and I had to say that I had no idea and had read about it in the local paper. That is not acceptable. I take on board what the witnesses have said. Speed is an issue here and the OPW has to react quickly. However, I am sure Dáil Deputies would make themselves available to be met with two or three days' notice. I do not want to speak for other Deputies but I would certainly be willing to accommodate that.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses very much for coming in today. I will go back to the discussion my colleague, Deputy Munster, was having with regard to the convention centre, the deductions and so on. Will the witnesses again talk me through the potential deduction from unitary payments in respect of the tenth, 11th and 12th payment years? What were the reasons for not withholding funds or progressing that as far as possible under the agreement?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I will respond first. I may bring Mr. Bourke in on the detail. We explained at the beginning that no decision has been taken yet. We are in dialogue with the convention centre and are getting advice from the various parties involved. As I am sure the Deputy will understand, we have a 30-year contract with the group and, until the issue is resolved and a decision taken and implemented, the contract carries on and we work it. If it is decided to reduce the payment for the years in question, that will be applied as soon as the decision is taken. There will be no loss to the State. It is a question of timing.

The bigger question is what decision we are going to make and what is the correct approach. Should that €1.5 million be deducted from the payment? The payments are very large. We are talking about over €20 million a year over a 30-year contract. This is an enormous project which covers the building, the maintenance and the operation of the building. We have to look at this in its totality. As I said earlier, the objective of the State is to successfully build up a convention business that brings tourism, and particularly overseas tourism and delegates, to the centre. The company in place was doing well and meeting the targets for business development until Covid hit. We can talk about the extent to which the risks of Covid should be taken or shared. The company is obviously concerned and it is now obvious that people will travel less for conventions, business meetings and so on.

However, surprisingly, the initial feedback is that the company has done quite well in restoring activity to the convention centre in the first period. We also have to take into account that the centre accommodated Dáil Éireann during those periods at no charge to the group. There are different factors involved. Something that might be interesting for Deputies to know and which has not really been in the public domain is that, a few years ago, we supported the operators in putting through a refinancing package for the overall operation. I believe I am correct in saying there was a saving to the State because of that, which is a separate matter.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Okay. As Mr. Buckley says, that is a separate matter.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

It is more complex.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the totality of the contractual arrangement as such but it is important as well that the State take a strong position within all of the contracts that it is engaged in. From our perspective - over the past number of months we have been looking at broadband, the children's hospital and the national lottery - it is apparent that on the private side the operators take the most robust position available to them within every contractual arrangement and it is of interest what the State's overall approach is too. We would take the view, or certainly I would take the view, that the State should be at least as robust in its approach to the different contractual arrangements that it is engaged in in the public private partnership, PPP. When Mr. Buckley says that the OPW will get it resolved, it will make a decision and it will be resolved financially then, would he give me a sense of how long it is taking to make this decision?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Does Mr. Bourke want to come in there?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

Yes. The issue with this one is that we are in a very unique situation with the convention centre. It is a situation that has never arisen before.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, I do not mean to cut across Mr. Bourke but I have very little time. Would he mind only answering how long it is taking?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

Yes, sorry. I would envisage that by the end of the first quarter of next year - February-March of next year - we should have all the information and that should allow us position and conclude a conversation with the convention centre.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Therefore, it will be February-March next year. Will the decision be back over a two to three year window?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Yes.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Do we not know what the outcome will be for that period?

Mr. Martin Bourke:

We do not because there are divergent views, not with ourselves. We heard the Comptroller and Auditor General speaking earlier. He has a clear view on a contract. There are people who have the exact opposite view on that. For instance, the Department, which sponsors the convention centre and the whole project, has a view that no deductions should be applied.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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That is where the OPW comes in in terms of the management of the State's assets-----

Mr. Martin Bourke:

Exactly.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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-----and the management of the contracts of those things. That is why it is so important that the OPW is robust in to the management of these contracts.

Mr. Martin Bourke:

Absolutely.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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On a different matter, Mr. Buckley will be aware that I have tabled many parliamentary questions on the children's science museum, which is of ongoing interest to me. The OPW has gone through not one, but two mediations in relation to this. For the information of the committee, this was something that was agreed - I do not know by whom or how - over a decade ago. It was put on ice because of the financial crash. It was then essentially forced back on the agenda by the museum board. The OPW resisted it with mediation. It went away for a second reason I cannot recall. Then it came back on a second mediation, which was, I believe, concluded last year in a way that, it seemed to me, the OPW did not want to be concluded; it has now been forced to progress with a museum that was somebody's idea in 2007. I appreciate that the OPW has been forced to do this through the mediation. Can Mr. Buckley give me a sense of the legal costs involved in 2021 in relation to this mediation or over the two mediations, and how have we ended up in a situation where it appears the OPW is being forced to progress a science museum in the concert hall that does not appear to be necessary because there is a perfectly good functional one out in Sandyford that hundreds of thousands of children have visited over the past number of years? Hundreds of different schools have travelled there via the M50 from all over Ireland to visit. Could Mr. Buckley explain this to me?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Certainly. Starting with the point on costs, the costs for the recently concluded arbitration - there were two arbitrations involved - have not been finalised yet and I do not know what those costs will be.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Sometimes we ask if it is €1,000, €10,000 or €100,000. Approximately, what will it be?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I do not know. I imagine it will be expensive----

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Will it be somewhere between €1,000 and €100,000?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

-----but I do not know what the cost will be.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Can Mr. Buckley give any indication?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I cannot give the Deputy any indication. I am not a lawyer. I am not familiar with it. There were barristers aplenty-----

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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This is a cost for the OPW.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

-----in the room.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, there were barristers aplenty in the room who have not been setting fees and are not responsible for the paying of the fees. The OPW is responsible for paying its own legal fees. It must have some sense of the liability that it has incurred in legal fees through this process.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Our legal matters are managed by the Chief State Solicitor's Office, CSSO, and the Attorney General's, AG's office. They handle the appointment of barristers and are negotiating fees.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Are they paying the fees or is OPW paying the fees?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

They are paying fees.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Does it not come in to the OPW at all?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

I am sure we will be involved but we have no part in managing the fees that are paid.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Okay.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Coming back on the general question, the Deputy made the point a moment ago of how important it is for the State bodies to be robust in dealing with contract partners. The Deputy is correct. Not a decade ago but two decades ago, the commitment was entered into to build a science museum by the OPW, on behalf of the then Government. The story went on from there, as the Deputy outlined. Quite simply, the OPW, in itself, taking a narrow view, has always recognised that we have a binding contract to build this facility. We also have a responsibility as a public body to try to ensure that it is successful, that all the outside circumstances are taken into account, and that we are supporting the broader Government policy and programme. We would certainly have attempted to make connections between the promoters of the Earlsfort Terrace project and the Sandyford science centre and, indeed, with the science gallery in Trinity - there are other developments there.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Indeed, there are.

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

The ultimate decision there is for the promoters. They have a contract and if they insist on that contract being fulfilled, that is their entitlement.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Who are the promoters?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

It is a charity company called the Irish children's museum limited, ICML. Initially, there were approximately 13 people involved. It is now down to five or six. Of the key people involved, the chairman is Mr. Michael Collins SC, a barrister. Dr. Danny O'Hare, the former president of DCU, has recently stepped down but he was very involved. He was the previous chairman. Ms Ali Hewson is involved. They were the main parties involved in the arbitration proceedings. There are three or four other people whose names I can supply to the Deputy, but it is on the public record.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I would be obliged if Mr. Buckley would.

The reason that this is so important is because when this was agreed initially there was no science museum in Ireland. There is an excellent science museum, which is not in my constituency. I have no connection to it. However, I have visited it, as have hundreds of thousands of other people. It received support all the way through Covid with the employment scheme and all of the different Covid schemes. Now there is a question about whether it reopens or not. I have no grá for any particular entity but I have a big difficulty with the State being obliged to build something that already exists. I do not understand the rationale for it. This is something that the Committee of Public Accounts, next year, they following year or the year after, will have to return to. This is something that the Comptroller and Auditor General will have to investigate thoroughly. I want it noted today that I do not understand how we can still be obliged to do something from 2007. I am glad to hear the OPW is approaching the matter with robustness. I was glad that it went through the two different arbitrations. I genuinely do not understand it. It will be a matter of note for the future, in particular, for the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am interested because I looked at this issue. Deputy Carroll MacNeill may know more about it than I do. From the information I got on it, what I am interested in is how we keep getting into these situations. The Deputy has mentioned the museum out in Sandyford. Was it located there ten years or so ago?

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Slightly less, but it is perfectly good.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Who owns that building?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

It is privately owned.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is wrong with it? Why have we to move from there?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

It is a separate development. It is a science museum developed and operated by a private entity. It is nothing to do with the State, as far as I am aware.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is operated privately. In relation to this issue of why we are tied into the contract since 2007, when did the State become entangled in this that we could not reverse out of it? Can anybody shed light on that?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

At that time, around 2000, as the Chairman will recall, we were desperately trying to increase the profile of science and attract people into science and engineering education, and that is where the commitment stems from.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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A contract.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No, we are tied up in a contract here. That is why I am anxious to find out at what point we got tied up. In what year did we get tied up in this contract that we could not go into reverse gear?

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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In 2007.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Was it 2007?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

The date of the original contract was 2003.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Have we any control? Is the State tied in by contract to the location and price or price range at this stage?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Yes, as a result of various legal proceedings. Unfortunately, it went down the legal route. The project has many merits and so on but it would be beneficial to tie in other players and have an holistic view.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the location?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

The location is the north wing of Earlsfort Terrace. That is one aspect that is helpful. Earlsfort Terrace is a very important historic building. It was the exhibition building back in the 1800s. It is in a very bad state of repair. People will know the National Concert Hall on the south side of the building. The Government has just approved a major investment in that. However, the other half of the building will need major investment over the next decade in any case to repair it. That offsets to some extent but does not fully answer the questions and concerns raised. However, it is important.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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It is a matter of considerable concern at this point. We have now spent ten years on this. The OPW, in fairness, has tried to resist having to progress this, recognising the changing circumstances. There is a private entity that fulfils the function from the perspective of the State. Regarding the scale of the build-out and the fit-out costs, I have never seen a business case. I am not sure whether one exists within the OPW.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will get an answer to that. Does a business case exist?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

Before the current arbitration, we were working with the promoters to develop a business case. This has to be financed. It is certainly to the benefit of the group, which will require further subsidy from the Government to operate the centre, develop a business case, carry out a cost–benefit analysis and go through the public spending code. That process was under way in 2018 and 2019, but was never brought forward. At a particular point in time, the promoters decided "No" and took the arbitration route.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is very unsatisfactory that they were tied into this.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise for being late. I want clarification on the Convention Centre Dublin and the payment of €1.3 million. Is the OPW obliged to pay that money?

Mr. Maurice Buckley:

No.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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