Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I welcome everyone to this second session of today's public meeting. I have an apology from Deputy Ó Cathasaigh. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the parliamentary precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

For the information of the witnesses, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references they may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. However, if witnesses are giving their evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness who is physically present does. Witnesses may think it appropriate to take some legal advice on the matter but I do think we will need that today. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I welcome our representatives from the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU. Present are Mr. David Joyce of ICTU, Ms Deirdre O’Connor of the Irish National Teachers Organisation, INTO, and Ms Michelle Quinn of SIPTU and chair of the ICTU's disability committee, who is joining us remotely. We also have representatives from Specialisterne Ireland. They are Mr. Peter Brabazon, CEO, and Ms Noreen Murphy, operations manager. Before we hear from our guests, I propose we publish their opening statements on the committee website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The committee has had several meetings about autism and education. We have met parents, teachers, advocacy groups, agencies and Ministers. Last week we published a report on the summer programme for 2023 that we hope will enhance the education experience and increase the number of schools providing that programme for autistic children and their families. We recently met the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, and SOLAS to discuss how autistic people can be supported in further and higher education and training.

Next, we are turning our attention to autism and employment. Globally, the UN says 80% of those with autism are not in the workforce. A recent survey from AsIAm put that figure at 85% for person who were either unemployed or underemployed. That figure is too high. We wish to discuss with our guests ways in which we can better support autistic people outside and beyond the educational system to get and keep jobs.

I call on Mr. Joyce to make his opening statement.

Mr. David Joyce:

I thank the Chair. I will start by saying a little about who we are. We are the largest civil society organisation on the island and represent and campaign on behalf of some 750,000 working people. There are currently 46 unions affiliated to congress north and south of the Border. We very much welcome the establishment of this committee to consider matters relating to the services and supports provided by the State for autistic people and we express our thanks for the invitation to discuss autism policy and employment. I am equality officer with ICTU. I am accompanied online by Ms Quinn of SIPTU , who is chair of our disability committee, and Ms O'Connor from the INTO who is a member and former chair of our disability committee and a former member of the National Disability Authority board as well.

Our work on the broad disability agenda is guided by our disability committee, which also works closely with a number of disability organisations, including those working on the issue of neurodiversity. We met only last week to plan work for 2023, which includes a commitment to provide information to help union officers and reps to represent autistic members or those who have autistic family members. We hope to help reps to recognise the workplace issues that can impact on autistic people and will give them the information and guidance they need to help tackle those issues.

On autism in the workplace, autism itself of course is a term describing a wide range of conditions that reflect neurological differences among people. These are known as autism spectrum conditions. Autism, along with other neurological conditions such as dyslexia, dyspraxia and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder are all examples of neurodiversity. "Neurodiversity" is a relatively new term that refers to the diversity of the human brain. This means there is a wide range of difference in how people’s brains work. Neurodiversity recognises some people’s brains are wired differently.

The Chair referred to the AsIAm statistic that one in 65 people in Ireland is autistic with 85% of that number either unemployed or underemployed. Barriers that are placed in the way of workers who have autism spectrum conditions can negatively affect their lives at work, and some are excluded from work simply because of their condition. Given this under-representation in the workforce, it is clear work needs to be done to ensure that our workplaces are more inclusive of autistic people. Unions have a vital role to play in increasing awareness and understanding of autism in the workplace and enforcing the rights that protect people. Key to achieving inclusive workplaces for people with autism is the provision of reasonable accommodation. Section 16 of the Employment Equality Act obliges employers to provide "reasonable accommodations" to employees.

Section 16 of the Employment Equality Act obliges employers to provide reasonable accommodations to employees. Applying supports can level the playing field for autistic people and disabled people, and can support an autistic person to contribute to the organisation's work and to be included as a valued member of the organisation.

In partnership with IBEC, we have done some work on reasonable accommodation, culminating in the launch of the reasonable accommodation passport scheme. The passport scheme provides a confidential live record of adjustments agreed with an employer. The passport is for workers to keep and share with anyone whom they think may need to know about the barriers they face within or outside the workplace, and the adjustments that have been agreed to prevent or reduce its impact in the workplace. A passport system would ensure that everyone is clear about what has been agreed, and reduce the need to reassess these each time an employee changes role or has a change in line management. It can act as a tool to support individuals in fulfilling their potential and contributing to their own success and that of the organisation. We believe that its adoption by employers could encourage the employment of people with autism and open up conversations around reasonable accommodation. We hope that the committee, in adopting recommendations in this area, might consider supporting the introduction of the passport scheme.

The National Disability Authority, NDA, has published guidance for line managers and HR professionals in order to better understand autism and to effectively recruit, work with and support staff with autism in the workplace. The guide has a number of practical tips for ensuring inclusive workplaces, including, for example, a suggestion that employers should provide information about the interview process to candidates in advance of the interview. Research shows that for some people with autism spectrum disorders, providing them with information prior to the interview, for example about the types of questions candidates may be asked, can alleviate their anxiety about the event. It also helps them to prepare for the interview. As the NDA guide states, reasonable accommodation practices which benefit people with autism can also have a positive outcome for all employees and for employers themselves. Reducing possible stress points in the workplace is good for everyone. It is also good for business outcomes, as a stress-free workplace helps employers to maintain maximum productivity and to retain staff.

Other examples of autism-friendly changes in the workplace include providing autism awareness training for all staff, particularly management and HR; establishing a clear autism policy for the workplace and giving autistic workers and those with caring responsibilities for autistic people the opportunity to contribute to its development; reviewing the working environment and assessing whether the sensory environment is suitable for people who may be sensitive to light and sound; reviewing workplace communications; and ensuring information is being shared in a way that is accessible for autistic workers. I thank members for their attention. We look forward to participating in the discussion.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

I thank the committee for inviting us to present at the meeting today. It is a real opportunity for charities and social enterprises like our organisation. In a nutshell, we provide a specialist recruitment service for neurodiverse people to help them to gain employment and importantly, to retain it. I am not going to go through the background details, which Mr. Joyce has kindly provided, but I wish to highlight that unemployment among autistic people is a social issue. Neurodiverse people, and particularly those with autism with whom we mainly work, are eight times more likely to be unemployed in comparison to neurotypical people. They are also three times more likely to be unemployed in comparison to people with other disabilities. There is fundamentally something wrong here, overall. The figures provided by AsIAm are correct, so we are facing a big challenge.

In essence, we provide a service to match unemployed autistic people with employers. The organisation was established in Ireland ten years ago today, so it is very fitting that we are here, in front of the committee, on our anniversary. In that time, we have made a lot of progress, and the demand is high. In the first year of operation, Specialisterne Ireland placed four people in employment. Last year, we placed 85 people. We have registered almost new 200 candidates this year, which represents an increase of 25% on last year, and we currently have over 1,000 candidates. One of the big issues out there is the demand for the service. There are a few subtleties which I will come to later.

Overall, as we see it, some of the issues are around delivering efficiency into the area. Inclusion and partnership are core values of our organisation. We work in partnership with the enablers and also with the other charities to ensure there is less competition in the area. We are a social enterprise and a registered charity. The problem in the charity sector is competition for money and funding. That is a weakness in the structure. I can expand on that later, if required. That is why, as a matter of principle, we do not compete with anyone else. If they are aiming for the same goals as us, that is fine. Hence, we have a number of key partnerships with other charities and groups. In the charity sector, we have a memorandum of understanding with AsIAm, Dyspraxia/DCD Ireland, the Dyslexia Association of Ireland and ASPIRE, which works with those who have Asperger's syndrome. We also have partnerships with the colleges. I know that the committee has discussed autism policy and education. One of the big issues for autistic people, in particular, is that they can get the qualifications in college, but they have never worked in a corner shop or a bar, so they have not developed skills in work etiquette. They come out of college with high level qualifications, including PhDs, but they are unemployed. Typically, the candidates who approach us have level 7 degree qualifications. Previously, neurodiverse students were not getting much support in college, but lately they have been. There has been significant improvement in that area. We have a relationship with approximately 14 colleges and we work very closely with them.

Our two key partners, who are customers for us, are the candidates and the employers. It is a two-part stream. That is why we call ourselves a social enterprise. The organisation has a social objective, but there is an enterprise element. It is business-to-business. Companies are looking for talent, and the talent is there a lot of the time. Of course, sometimes accommodations need to be made for those with these talents, but often no- or low-cost accommodations can solve the problem. My colleague, Ms Murphy, who is our operations officer, can speak to that. She is more involved in operations, along with seven others, who typically have master's degrees in the area, ranging from HR to psychology.

Inclusion is a key value for us. We do not charge our candidates. We want to bring them in and break down the barriers. The candidates will not advocate on behalf of themselves. Often, they are not confident and they may be a little socially inept. Addressing those issues is a big area of work for us. Given that we do not charge our candidates, we are dependent on the State for funding, as many others are. We also support the candidates when they are in work on an ongoing basis. To do so, we charge the companies that gain the talent. After all, the candidates have the talent to do the job. Our model is candidate- and company-centric. We fit the two together when there is a fit.

The high unemployment rate among autistic people is a big social issue. The challenge for us and our partners in this area is managing the demand for services. Anything that can make the process of getting funding more efficient would be helpful. We suggest improving access to the EU. The Wheel is helping with that. It has helped us and other charities to get our first EU funding. However, there is no doubt that there is quite a lot of expense involved for smaller charities like us. We also want to become a source of information for researchers. The NDA, for example, has used us in the past. That is a big thing.

We are all learning, so if more analysis could be done, it would be important for us. For the past 18 months, we have had a person with a PhD in research working for us in this area. It has improved our story as well as how we get funding.

There is a quantitative element - the number of people employed - but there is also a qualitative element, in that what we have done for people we have been working with and who we have been supporting over the past nine years has improved matters.

Basically, we are trying to improve the efficiency of how we operate. More funding could be given to that work. We should recognise partnerships where we have calls for funding. We have been successful in that regard, and I thank Pobal, Rethink Ireland and so on. The partnership process needs to be pushed and supported with funding. Otherwise, too many people will be working in the same area.

The final points are the main ones. There is an excellent wage subsidy support scheme for employers. The problem is that it is administratively difficult. We provide support from an financial expert on how to apply for it. Smaller companies find it difficult to apply. Even larger companies find it difficult. We have submitted our ideas on how the process might be streamlined. The wage subsidy support scheme is an excellent system under which a company can get €12,000 plus per year for each person with autism or another disability it employs. The scheme is good, although it needs some improvements.

As the committee will have heard from every other organisation, the main challenge for us is the lack of multi-annual funding. If a charity gets support from Pobal, it might only be for a year and a half. Our main challenge is retaining the employees we have. They have learned a great deal and have expertise, which we could use. I am glad to have Ms Murphy in attendance. She has been with us for five years and came to us from the US with expertise in this area already. It is difficult to find that expertise and to pay for it properly. Sometimes, we are competing with the public sector, which has better terms and conditions of employment.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Brabazon. I will now turn to members for the questions and answers session. I am conscious that 2 p.m. is our finishing time and that another committee will meet in this room afterwards. I have a tendency to go over time on occasion, but I cannot do so today, so we will stick to 2 p.m. I call Deputy Tully.

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the witnesses. I welcome what Mr. Joyce indicated in his opening statement about how many of the unions in his organisation were displaying more awareness of autism and addressing it. Sometimes, ignorance breeds fear. Mr. Joyce spoke about passport systems. Will he expand on that point? At our earlier session, we discussed assistive technology and how it should follow a child from primary school to college and on into work, being updated as needed. That does not always happen, though. At previous meetings, witnesses spoke about having reasonable accommodations in their workplaces but having to reapply if they changed workplaces. Would the passport scheme apply to just one place where there was a change of role or would it follow people if they changed employers? Mr. Joyce stated: "Section 16 of the Employment Equality Act obliges employers to provide 'reasonable accommodations' to employees." Sometimes, employers prefer to avoid employing autistic people or disabled people in general because, despite there only being a requirement to make "reasonable" accommodations, they believe that employing someone without a disability is easier. Obviously, they are missing out on a great deal of talent by doing this. We must try to get through to employers about the talents that autistic people have and what they could bring to places of employment.

I have a few questions about how Specialisterne Ireland works. Is it a nationwide body? It has increased the number of people it has helped down the years, with 200 availing of assistance this year. Are there others seeking assistance whom Specialisterne Ireland is not in a position to help due to a lack of resources? Mr. Brabazon indicated that the funding was not multi-annual but that it needed to be.

Candidates apply to Specialisterne Ireland for assistance. Do companies approach it seeking people or does it reach out to companies to take on people? Regarding those it has helped to gain employment, is that employment sustainable? Do people stay in it long term or is there a large turnover of staff? Has Mr. Brabazon data on this?

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

I thank the Deputy for her questions. We conduct a deep assessment with the candidate to find out what he or she can do and wants to do. It is all voluntary – people come to us, there is no charge on them and we do not discuss a specific role for the candidate at the time. The typical areas are IT, finance and the sciences. We have two people working in PR. The roles are across the board. The majority of people we work with are autistic.

We give people the confidence to go through the interview process. At the same time, we speak to the company so that the interview panel knows about the person and what social accommodations the interview system should make.

The company, at local level in particular, will have been briefed by us. Like many organisations, we also have a buddy system. If a company likes a particular person out of a number of CVs that we put forward for certain roles, we brief local co-workers just before that person starts on what they need to do to support him or her. It is all about disclosure at various levels. If a person does not like the canteen because of the noise, the co-workers will know and be supportive if that person disappears to have lunch by himself or herself. The person is not being antisocial. It is just that he or she needs to do that. The same applies if the person needs to sit beside a window or so on. The co-workers become supporters of the buddy as well. We assign a dedicated person in the company to our candidate. Once the candidate has settled down after the so-called onboarding period, we check in regularly. Covid drove us to retain supporting roles and to move from having checks more than once per month to almost once per week. We have people who we are still supporting after nine years, but most become independent.

We are reaching a new point where our work is about career development. Many people have reached something of a glass ceiling in their companies, in that they do not have the necessary qualifications but have the intelligence to do the job. We are having a great deal of success on this front this year with some of our older companies.

Company referrals are made to us in various ways. Typically, flag bearers for us in one company talk to another company, which then contacts us. For a company, this is about gaining talent. There are some charges around it, but that is logical to do. If companies are clever enough and use our support, they can avail of the wage subsidy support scheme and so on. Typically, we match many of the rates charged by recruiters anyway. We have to be a legal body in that respect.

Sometimes, company referrals come to us through a person who knows someone with a disability. It does not have to be autism. If the individual approaching us is the top person in the company, it just happens, but he or she is often in HR or a senior manager.

The Deputy's final question was on retention. As a generalisation, our people tend to stay in their roles for longer because they are happy to have their jobs. Lately, some have been trying to develop their careers. We have helped them move to other companies or, more preferably, to grow within their current companies. This has happened successfully this year with three people – two have stayed and one has left. That is life.

One guy was headhunted by another company. What can we do?

Mr. David Joyce:

The passport scheme is an idea that originated in the UK and within the trade union movement there and we adopted it for use here. We are very pleased to agree a broad approach with IBEC on the scheme because we felt that it would be more powerful if we had the employers on board right from the start. Essentially, the passports are designed for people who require adjustments in order to carry out their work. They are a written record of the accommodations agreed between the person and his or her line manager. They allow time for employees to explain the kinds of changes or adjustments they might need in order to perform their roles efficiently and productively. The passport might also explain the barriers they encounter so everyone understands the reasons for them. Also, the passport might set out the terms for a review because, obviously, people's conditions change over time. The advantage of this is that the passport is an agreement between a person and his or her line manager, so if the line manager changes or the person's role changes, the latter has this passport that shows what has been negotiated and agreed with a previous line manager.

As for moving employments entirely, this is not a statutory scheme; it is just an agreement at workplace level. However, I think it would be really useful for people moving employments to have the records with them. Perhaps the employments to which they are to move have the scheme in place, but even if they do not, it is a really useful document to carry with them and shortens that conversation such that they can say, "I have a record here as to what is required and what was agreed at my last workplace, so can we talk about something similar here?" That is how the scheme works.

On the broader question about reasonable accommodation, I will hand over to Ms O'Connor.

Ms Deirdre O'Connor:

In response to Deputy Tully's question about reasonable accommodation, in the disability and employment context reasonable accommodation has been around for quite some time, but raising awareness of it has been a difficulty. One of the gaps that has been identified in the employment strategy for people with disabilities is the matter of employers having access to information and an information service. That is really important in this context. Reasonable accommodation is not about an employer having to take on somebody who is not able to do the job. It is about the things that can be done within the employment to ensure that the person can make a contribution and access meaningful work, which I think we would all agree is really important for every person, with or without a disability.

As for the kinds of reasonable accommodation a person with autism might look for, if we look at the characteristics associated with autism in the areas of social interaction, communication style and behavioural patterns, for example, the first thing is to be aware of the additional needs of people with autism and then to see if they can be reasonably accommodated within the workplace through changes in routine or, for example, a more targeted communication style through job-matching, ensuring that the person is in a job that matches his or her abilities. One thing that is really important to say is that there are many strengths and talents that neurodivergent people or people with autism can bring into the workplace, such as their attention to detail, their ability to stay with a task, and very strong attendance patterns, which are associated with many people with a disability who are in employment. These people really value their jobs. There are many very hardworking, intensely focused people with autism in work. It is a matter of whether the accommodations can be made to bring them in and whether employers can become aware, first, of their needs and, second, of how they can reasonably accommodate those differences within the workplace.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Next on my list is Deputy Pádraig O'Sullivan.

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome all the witnesses. As the Chair said earlier, we had a very interesting conversation this morning about how we can make students' school environment a more welcoming place for autistic children. It is important we speak about this also in the context of the workplace.

I have a number of questions. I will probably come back in later but I will ask just one or two to start with. The first is for Specialisterne and Mr. Brabazon. I am friendly with Frank Holt in Cork so I have a good idea of what Specialisterne does. Mr. Brabazon mentioned the funding it has. I know that it got Pobal funding recently, and Mr. Brabazon referred to that and mentioned the Rethink Ireland funding. Will he give us the background to that funding? Is it annual? Is it reviewed annually? Is it on an application basis? Does Specialisterne have a more sustainable funding model going forward? Could Mr. Brabazon comment on that briefly first?

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

Annually, we get close to €1 million. We are a bit over €1 million turnover in total for this year. There is one group of people we employ as contractors who are autistic and we normally do not include them in our income stream, but if we do, we are at the €1 million mark. Where does it come from? Two thirds of it comes from the State or the EU and one third comes from fees earned in different ways. We offer different services. Obviously, the main service is the employment service, but we do coaching, mentoring and so on. Awareness is a big thing for us too, going back to Ms O'Connor's point about communications. How does it come to us? We were very lucky, more or less in the same year Mr Murphy joined us, to gain a three-year support from Pobal, which was, I think, 50% funded by the European Social Fund, ESF. That really got us growing. We have depended on that for growth and we grew dramatically. As a social charity, we have grown but every year we spend a lot of time making additional applications. We do not lead in any European applications. We have just a partner in our first one in Europe directly. Pobal has a very thorough process but it is fair. From our point of view, it has worked out very well.

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is the funding Specialisterne receives adequate for where it is at the moment or does it project that it will grow again in the future?

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

The timing is the problem. We had two projects which, effectively, are now funded from the Dormant Accounts Fund. One ended in the middle of last year and we had recruited three people for that, so we decided to try to keep those roles. That is a challenge for us because we have not filled in that funding since. The other one, which Ms Murphy has led, the ability programme, as it is called, with Pobal and the Department behind it, has seen agreement to continue it for another year. All of us, that is, the 27 charities in social enterprises, had hoped to gain funding from the European Social Fund, but that has not happened. Our problem there is that I have three people associated with that programme for whom, technically, I do not have the funding yet, although it has been said that there will be a programme starting on 1 January. It is a little tight. I am talking on behalf of all 27 charities here. We are retaining the people. Ms Murphy herself has years of experience, not just with us but also before us. Those are the challenges.

The only point I will make about the administration side - and I ran a programme in the area of education for the Government - is that the support we get from Pobal, which is limited by the EU or otherwise sometimes, is typically, for the administration side, between 7% and 10%.

I have done the calculations and, when I used to run the programme, the administration cost of many programmes was approximately 15% of the total. The provision for administration costs under the wage subsidy scheme is actually very fair. Once you have more than three people, you get 10% of the business you are doing, that is, the amount going out in grants. If you are hosting three people, you get 10% of their salaries as well as administration costs. It goes up to 20% after you have ten people. That is very good. It is reasonable. That is another challenge arising from the system. The provision for administration is too low. There was a line on this in my note. I said that there should be extra funding when partnerships are formed. That is a key thing because partnerships take a little bit of administration. You have to have a service level agreement and that type of thing and you sometimes have to align things. We have had to manage insurances and so on. There is an administration load involved.

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I take from what Mr. Brabazon has said that, pending funding, Specialisterne Ireland plans to be around for an awful long time and hopes to expand the services it provides. That would be great because I am a convert. After listening to the likes of Frank Holt, I believe the work the group does is great.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

Absolutely.

Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will come to ICTU at the end if I get a chance to come in a second time but I will first finish with Specialisterne Ireland. I hate to use the number of people successfully placed as the sole metric of what the group does because, as Mr. Brabazon has said, a lot of it is about raising awareness, which is harder to quantify. However, for brass tacks purposes, how many people have been successfully placed in, for example, the last 12 months?

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

We registered 155 people last year and 85 got employment. However, it must be remembered that some of those 85 came from previous years as we had been working with them for a long time. We have been operating for ten years today and, over that time, we have not quite reached 50% but a number of people we have worked with who did not get employment have gone back into education having made their own decision based on our advice. Education often enables people to go on to the next stages of employment. It is a fairly successful model and we are quite pleased with it. The driver for it is that I personally have an autistic son, who is now 29. That is how I got involved. I was involved with another charity but asked myself what we were going to do after he left school. My guy was lucky enough to go to college and eventually passed a degree over six years. All of these people are different. I hope that answers the Deputy's question.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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If we have time afterwards, we will let members back in again.

Mark Wall (Labour)
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I also welcome our guests today. I apologise for coming to the meeting late. I missed some of the opening statements and the witnesses may have already answered some of my questions. I apologise for that but thank all of the witnesses for being with us today. It is very important. There is an area I wanted to concentrate on. I am aware of and dealing with a number of people who have done the leaving certificate, who are now aged 18 and 19 and who do not know where to go next. That was touched on briefly but what can the witnesses offer those people? I am specifically thinking about a number of families with whom I am dealing at the moment who have reached out to employers and colleges but who are not getting the feedback they had hoped for. That may have something to do with the wage subsidy support scheme. Mr. Brabazon has mentioned twice already that smaller employers in rural areas in particular are afraid to engage with that scheme. Perhaps the committee can do or needs to do a lot of work on that. Perhaps he will comment on that advice for parents and on what they need to do.

Another issue that has been brought up with me since I became a member of this committee is the issue of late diagnosis, which was mentioned in the opening statements. People go into a job and are working away but find it very difficult to hold onto the job. They may be in the middle of seeking a diagnosis or perhaps they or their families do not want a diagnosis. There are a number of contributory factors. How can employers and unions work with those people to encourage them and to make sure they form part of that employment because, as has been said, many of them bring special skills with them? That is something I find as well. They are loath to get the diagnosis because of the consequences it may have for their employment. Perhaps the witnesses will comment on those points.

Ms Deirdre O'Connor:

It comes back to the idea of awareness of reasonable accommodation. People need to have information about how to go about putting reasonable accommodations in place. There has to be good information systems regarding support for employers in accessing the funding that is available and in the practicalities of putting reasonable accommodations in place. There have been several initiatives under the comprehensive employment scheme to put employer information services in place but these have not succeeded. There have been pilots that have not succeeded. One of the other pieces of the comprehensive employment strategy relates to transitions from one stage of life to another such as the transitions from preschool to primary school, from primary school to secondary school and from secondary school into the college or the workplace. Supports need to be targeted there.

There are two things to say about young people with disabilities who are leaving the education system and going into the workplace. The first relates to the expectations of parents, educators and teachers as to what young people can or cannot achieve. A lot of the time it is about what they cannot achieve. It is really important that people have good expectations and expect that people with disabilities generally will go into employment. That is the first part.

The second part is for schools and relates to career guidance and awareness among career guidance counsellors regarding the possibilities and the reasonable accommodations. For example, people with a disability going into a workplace or their parents should be able to articulate the kinds of supports they need and how those supports can reasonably be put in place. What does it mean to say that a particular person has to be reasonably accommodated? That needs to be broken down because many of the accommodations do not cost money and are not disruptive to the workplace. It may involve working with an organisation like Specialisterne Ireland or with job coaches. Another issue across the disability and employment landscape is the difficulty in scaling up operations like Specialisterne Ireland or any of the many other organisations working in this area. I believe Mr. Brabazon referred to a kind of competition between organisations. It is really important that, where there are good supports, they are scaled up so that they can be rolled out across the system.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Brabazon want to come in? I saw him nodding.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

I thank the Senator for those questions. Late diagnosis is a problem. We try to build up people's confidence to advocate for themselves. We only work with young adults, people over the age of 18. However, there are groups working in the area of education. For example, AsIAm focuses on advocacy and all of that. We work very closely with that organisation in respect of handovers. I mentioned the challenge of late diagnosis in the paper. We did a very interesting project with Dublin City University, DCU, which has grown to involve a number of other colleges. In a confidential survey, of those people who had a disability, including autism, who we asked, 50% did not disclose that disability to disability services in their college. You can imagine what is going on there. There is a challenge there. It is improving. That survey was a few years ago. How do we get this awareness? The first thing is that this is a societal issue. There is that level of information. AsIAm certainly works on that level. On the level of employer information, we do a lot of presentations to employers about the issues. Risk is the big thing for them, whether that be financial, reputational or of some other kind. They do not complete the work. We chat to them about that. What you can gain is the benefit of a person's talent, but you also gain a loyal person most of the time, which answers the earlier question. It is a process of change. Many of the parents, like myself, led on a lot of this. However, it is now falling more and more to professionals. I will take the college we worked with in Tralee for example. We have worked with a lot of colleges and, because of the general data protection regulation and so on, they suggest people come to us when they feel we can work with them. That has been an excellent model.

We have now been asked by the Tralee campus of the new Munster Technological University to support its people who are advising their students on who could become our candidates. It is a slowly growing area. Ms Murphy may want to speak on this.

Ms Noreen Murphy:

It is a growing area. From our experience, when we looked at the number of individuals who, many years ago, graduated and immediately fell into long-term unemployment, we realised that the issue was happening much earlier than was being tackled. That is why we started to work with third level institutions and individuals in third year before they seek placements in order to help them build their confidence in recognising their own skills, because that is often a challenge, recognising the value they can bring to a company, and working with them on being able to confidently communicate during an interview. In addition, on the other side of this, where an employer is willing to engage with us, we work with the employer to help it become more open and welcoming in its interview processes. We help employers to provide an autism- or disability-friendly interview.

From our perspective, there can be a tendency to paint everyone with the same brush, for example, if people are autistic they are this and if they are dyslexic they are this, whereas, from our perspective, every single individual is entirely unique. The whole process needs to start with open communication, where an individual's needs are addressed so that person can perform to the best of his or her ability. That also applies to individuals who received a late diagnosis. By keeping the lines of communication open and checking in regularly, we can figure out what the person needs. That also allows a certain amount of respect for the fact that reasonable accommodations change over the course of life and time, with so many factors. The communication element is a very important factor for us.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

One of the big challenges in respect of diagnoses is that females tend to be diagnosed more than ten years later than comparable males. We often get candidates who are working. We do consultancy for companies who come to us to ask can we help. The challenge often relates to women who are in college. They are people who often lose out on opportunities. Most of them have masked their autism by copying other females. They are very good at modelling what goes on around them. There are different challenges, even according to what sex we are dealing with.

Ms Michelle Quinn:

In response to Senator Wall's query, we see that late diagnosis occurs. There is also a changing workforce demographic in that people are working for longer and longer. Obviously, as they get older, the possibility of acquiring a disability grows. That raises issues for the trade union movement and for our membership. There is a real fear factor in respect of people who experience disability in the workforce to declare the fact they have a disability. That is why the reasonable accommodation passport is so helpful in bridging that gap, in some ways. It is very difficult. If people are fearful that declaring their disability may have a negative consequence on their employment or career progression, the fewer people they will have to share their experiences with in order to make it easier. It must be incredibly difficult to keep having the same conversation over and over again as someone's line manager changes. There are real fears around career progression. Mr. Brabazon touched on the issue of people reaching a glass ceiling and, for various reasons, not being able to go beyond that. Those concerns have been reflected back to me from our membership. Use of the reasonable accommodation passport and other initiatives encourages people to feel safe in declaring they have a disability. Looking for reasonable accommodation to meet their needs is so important.

There is also a corresponding fear factor in the general public. They may not have known anybody in their family circle or among their friends who have experienced a disability. That has changed in recent years because, as I said, the workforce is working for longer and the demographic is changing. It is quite likely that in the fullness of time we will all experience some knowledge of people with a disability, including family members etc., who had no prior issues but whose circumstances then change. I actively encourage as much publicity as possible on the existence of the reasonable accommodation passport because it is a valuable tool. We will continue to work with IBEC and other stakeholders to ensure that our membership know of its existence and that the wider public are also knowledgeable regarding it.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I will try to be brief. It is great to have the witnesses before us and to have bodies that represent so many people. Many of us have discussed the reasonable accommodation passport scheme. It is an amazing initiative that, it is be hoped, will grow. I noticed, however, between the two sets of representatives, that the issue of awareness and information came up on numerous occasions, which Ms Quinn talked about. It prevents people from admitting they have a disability, if there is a fear factor regarding it and whether it will hold back their progression.

We also have a fear factor in respect of mental health. Someone could have a very simple, short-term episode where he or she is down for a week or two but cannot admit it. I will give an example. If someone is a member of the Defence Forces, has been overseas on tour duty, comes back, decides he or she is a little tired and needs a bit of a break, or says he or she has had any kind of mental health stress, that individual's career progression is gone. He or she will not be handling live rounds or going overseas. We should put that in the context of people with a disability who are going into the workforce and are being judged because of not being able to progress. Ms Quinn raised the issues of the workforce getting older and whether people's confidence depreciates. It is about trying to keep the morale up in pushing people forward to progress to the best of their ability. Yet, it is at the back of people's heads that the further they go, they seem to face falling off a cliff edge. I understand what Ms Quinn said about supports.

Mr. Brabazon and Ms Murphy's submission stated that more than 30% have qualified in the past three years but are still seeking employment. They also referenced the wage subsidy support scheme. It again raises the issue of awareness and information. How do we make that scheme more accessible for employers? That is why the ICTU side of this, because it has such a large membership, is a fabulous opportunity to get it out. This is about giving people equal opportunities. The witness who appeared before the committee prior to this made a very strong statement that just because the individual was non-verbal, he was viewed as being stupid and as not having any talents because he could not communicate. Again, that is about awareness and information for people.

I only have a couple of notes. I am trying to be very good today because I am conscious of time. I am very disappointed that the EU has not supported the likes of the representatives' groups, and others, a little more. The EU is supposed to be about meeting challenges, equal rights for everybody and a level playing field but it seems to be, as Mr. Brabazon mentioned, about everybody fighting for the pot. We cannot seem to get joined-up thinking. While the witnesses are here, I emphasise that, because the unions are so large and their membership is so strong, we have an amazing opportunity. I never heard of that passport system. I have often thought about systems like that because we have people who progress from primary school to secondary school and, hopefully, to third level. They all have different plans but this passport system would work with that as well. When we are talking about awareness, a very simple thing released some time last year, which was similar to the Leap card, was the just a minute, JAM, card. It was a very simple, informative initiative. When I first saw it, I said it was a brilliant idea.

It opens up. The key to this is information because we are all afraid. If we do not have the coping skills to deal with what we are looking at, we retract back and then shut down and do not engage with people and then the whole system falls down. I am delighted to hear what is actually coming up. I would love to follow up on how we can assist in raising the awareness to assist. The wage subsidy scheme should be made simple enough that employers could engage and give opportunities. We have it here in the Oireachtas. Prior to Covid and more recently there are a lot of people who have been integrated into the workforce on the campus here. Their progression even in the last two years has been phenomenal. I can think of one who has gone from zero confidence and being very shy to going out and getting post with a fine, thick Dublin accent - when I say "thick", in Cork it does not mean stupid, it means very large, lest that be taken out of context - and without saying anything, he will ask you "What's the story?" and he knows straight away that you are looking for your post. He has opened up with a bit of a laugh. It is about giving people opportunities.

I will leave it at that but I ask if there is any way that we can assist with that information and awareness to get that out and replicated across all sectors, education, employment and whatever. I think we are on the right path.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

Badging is important and recognition of something. I think what the union is and the unions are doing is excellent. The Deputy might be interested to know this or maybe he will not because now that I think of it, it is in Kerry. We are doing a project with AsIAm in Kerry which is about badging the fact that employers have got training in this area. They have a badge of accreditation. That is one thing that often goes well in the education system generally but also for employers and particularly smaller employers who are working fundamentally with that town and all the infrastructure; the enablers, the Intreo office, the EmployAbility service, the mayor, the local chamber of commerce and some of the employers. We have not talked about the project and will not do so until next year when we are fairly confident that it will go forward. There we are talking about people who might need more accommodation than usual so there are extra charges around it. That is why we need to do this together. That is why I come to the committee today, in a way, in order that there is more co-operation and not just between charities and social enterprises such as ourselves but also with the enablers, that is, the EmployAbility services and Intreos of this world. Intreo, to give it its due, ever-increasingly promoted the wage subsidy support scheme. That was particularly the case in Cork last year where there was an excellent meeting on it and now it is doing it around the country.

In relation to the EU, the policy levels are there. For smaller groups like ourselves, it is about getting over those barriers but The Wheel is working with us and we have got into one as a sub-partner, not a leader. The challenge is some day to be a leader. Actually, we are doing quite well in this country in this area compared with others, as we know from our partners around Europe. While the European Social Fund, ESF, gets slowed down and whatever, it has one advantage, which is that it tends to be multi-annual. We will be looking out for that one.

On badging and the future, we do not currently use badging and maybe we should be and in some way promoting it but what we do is an audit of what accommodations might be needed for candidates. Does a person need to sit away from a window because they do not like the light or near the window because they like to see the garden or maybe they might not like someone sitting behind them? All of that sort of thing has to be considered. These are the low-cost or no-cost accommodations that Ms O'Connor referred to earlier. Ultimately, obviously it all comes down to communications. Change happens slowly. There are a lot of people out there who would even undersell their own autistic kids. We had one thing that happened in Roscommon where the mother was not that confident about her son and the employer asked us to go down and talk to them. What happened there is that he has grown and grown. The guy is now working away there. Incidentally, I say "he" a lot because unfortunately a lot are male but it is not a male thing. It is very much a female thing as well but because of late diagnosis, many people, male and female, go through life without ever getting diagnosed and they need support.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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On the Kerry project, there is a fine Cork name over there so I hope they will still work with a Cork woman.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

Ms Murphy has come to be here today from Cork, so we are all right.

Mr. David Joyce:

I know the Chair is challenged for time so I will be brief. First, to thank you for the complementary remarks about the passport scheme. We hope it can feature in the recommendations from this committee, which will help to promote its use more broadly. I agree entirely that awareness and communication are huge issues in this regard. Earlier this year, we were asked to submit views to the Department of Social Protection on how the reasonable accommodation fund could be improved to support more disabled people in gaining access to decent work. It is interesting that an OECD report from recent years showed that despite the potential for that fund to assist businesses, only 10% of employers were aware of the fund and 70% said they had never received any advice on delivering disability services or retaining people identified as having a disability. I will not go into this as I know there is not time, but our submission made a few submissions on how that might be addressed, including the delivery of a national promotion campaign. I would be happy to share that.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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That is what we need to do, so if Mr. Joyce would like to expand on it for a few minutes, he should do so.

Mr. David Joyce:

It is not just us. The sector generally would be broadly in agreement about a national promotional campaign on the web, social media and traditional media platforms that targeted employers, unions and people with disabilities themselves and which sought to raise awareness about the existence and nature of the available grant streams that are there. It has been mentioned that the application process for these can be quite complex so we need to look at how to address that. We need services to assist employers in meeting their obligations on reasonable accommodation. Something that all of us have touched on today is the business benefits of employing people with disabilities including, in this context, people with autism. We need to ensure that campaign is delivered in as accessible a manner as possible and features people with a range of disabilities in its design and delivery as well. I am happy to share the input with the committee.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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That is what we do need. Mr. Dunne was quoting figures there. We need a public awareness campaign of what supports are in place across all industry and to have ICTU, the largest trade union body in the country, roll in and support it would be a strong endorsement. I ask Mr. Dunne to please forward that documentation.

Catherine Ardagh (Fianna Fail)
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Many of the points I was going to make have been raised, particularly on the reasonable accommodation passport and its use in the education sector for children going from early intervention ASD classes onto secondary school and university. It seems like a no-brainer and hopefully it will be in our recommendations in our report.

To Mr. Brabazon, I know myself the benefits of the EmployAblility scheme. I have used it in the past and it was very beneficial to our firm.

Are most of the participants on Mr Brabazon's scheme coming through the EmployAbility scheme or another scheme or are they directly employed without intervention? He may be able to answer that. Well done to them on all their work. Much the time we talk about early years and early intervention in this committee but it is really important to invest in adults with autism and provide resources for them in the future. Allowing people to live their best life with a job is the aim goal of every family for every child. I thank Mr. Brabazon and all the other contributors.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

I do not know if I have fully understood the question correctly. I think it was working with the employability services that was being-----

Catherine Ardagh (Fianna Fail)
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I refer to the EmployAbility scheme run by the Department of Social Protection and whether all the participants benefit from this State-supported scheme or whether they are directly employed?

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

On employability schemes, we do not particularly focus on any scheme. I was talking about the EmployAbility agency, which is a supported group funded by the State. What we do is that we work in parallel with them. Sometimes EmployAbility suggests people come to us or we do it the other way around and suggest people go to it. I think there are about 20 to 25 EmployAbility offices around the country, some of whom we have very close relationships with - as I mentioned in Tralee and Galway - for a good long time. It is about working in parallel. We placed a young gentleman who needed a lot of support in Woodies in Dublin and essentially EmployAbility's support person worked with and talked to us about how we would do it all. I think Ms Murphy was involved in this case directly. It is about working in parallel with people. We do not compete or take over from any services already there such as in colleges. There was a big worry at one time because disability services were just starting and then we came along. We are complementary to those. If a full service is being provided, we do not need to be there. In Tralee where so many disabilities had to be dealt with, we help with the neurodiverse side of things and particularly with autism.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank all the witnesses for coming before the committee. This is a vital part of putting the jigsaw for autistic people together. We have all seen the real wins for society, for the autistic person, and for their wider family if they can make the moves. We have all talked about the cliff edge that relates to adult services in particular. We all know the nightmare it is at the minute trying to get speech and language therapy, SLT, psychology service or whatever services that are required. We all know we are not starting from the best place. I would not start from here if I were you. Anyway, we are where we are and this is an absolutely vital part of the conversation. I add my voice to what has been said earlier. When you are talking about reasonable accommodation and the passport system, that is just putting best practice in play. We need to do absolutely everything from the point of view of putting that in operation. I used the example of my own son and I have seen myself how the very small things matter. In dealing with the school he is in at present, I am aware that very small changes can allow for a really good day whereas when those mitigations are not put in play, all hell breaks loose and you are dealing with a worse-case scenario for all involved. That is what we are trying to avoid. Given the AsIAm figures of one in 65 of the population being autistic - and the numbers are obviously greater in younger groups - that is not something that is changing in the near future so we need to ensure, even from a societal and an economic point of view, that we are not cutting off those people. That goes without saying.

An issue brought to me during the week concerned the workplace equipment adaptation grant. Are Mr. Brabazon or Ms Murphy aware of this grant? It was brought to my attention because the person him or herself or the employer must put in for this funding for assistive technologies but the point made to me was that in some cases, it should be possible for the sponsoring body or the family to do it so it could be done at an earlier stage and lined up. It probably involves a very small change in relation to social protection but as the witnesses operate in the field, I will throw that to them first.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

It does not come up very often. As the Deputy said, it involves no or low cost items. One girl had a pressure pad thing that you put around yourself and there was funding for it. I think the administration just basically got in the way and we helped. That was the problem. The willingness was very much there. It was done through the local Intreo office in Tallaght. Generally though, that Intreo office is really good to us but this just got lost in the wind in a way. We got it in the end.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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You got it but it was hard work.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

A little bit of hard work because it was not a lot of money either and to some extent we were almost thinking that as a charity, we would just buy it ourselves.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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When it was brought to my attention, I wanted to put in on the agenda.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

It is a very rare requirement for the type of candidates we mainly work with. However, the people we are looking at funding now, who perhaps need more support, may require assistive technology. The funding for that is another important area, right down to the education side of things, that is, secondary or primary education, in which we are not involved. Again, it might come up when we do an audit of a place to see what is required but that is low-cost stuff in general.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is seems to be low cost. I have probably been sold on that to a degree and have seen examples of assistive technologies that make complete sense here for those with autism or for those with disabilities and even in some cases for those who do not fall under those brackets but just to make life and work just far more effective for all involved. As Mr. Brabazon says, he will be dealing with staff in the Department of Social Protection that will want to be able to facilitate him but there is a problem in how the system is structured at present. It is something that probably needs to be lined up before somebody ends up in employment and then you are applying for something that was technically needed beforehand.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

I apologise for interrupting but for the smaller companies-----

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is too much effort.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

The bigger companies have the wherewithal to say they will get ear defenders. That is the most common one and we never even think of the cost because we know the bigger company will get those earmuffs.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I was also going to bring it in to the point made by Mr. Brabazon earlier when he spoke about the wage subsidy support scheme. Again, the administration just needs to be made easier. A big company will have the wherewithal and the expertise and really it is not up to Mr. Brabazon or anyone else to have to jump in there but obviously that is a requirement based on how the situation is at the minute.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

It is a selling point for us. That is what we do.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I get that. We do all that is necessary I assume.

Ms Deirdre O'Connor:

I agree on that point about the streamlining of grant applications and streamlining the system for employers to apply for the supports that are available. In addition, however, to talk about the personal supports for the person with a disability, the kind of supports that may enable them to take up employment might range from some of the adaptive technologies the Deputy mentioned through to, for example, access to public transport or transport to get to work and for some people, supports to live independently, such as personal assistants. All of those supports are really important to allow people with disabilities and people with autism to access workplaces.

I also suggest having a look at the National Disability Authority's work on universal design. Buildings, whether they are workplaces or schools, need to be built in the most inclusive way possible so we do not have to adapt them to accommodate people coming in.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is a lot more expensive and difficult later.

Ms Deirdre O'Connor:

Yes. This can be less expensive than adapting the building.

Ms Noreen Murphy:

The number one feature for success we find for the individuals we support throughout their jobs in a variety of areas is ongoing support. That is a service we provide, like other organisations. It is an independent connect with the person who is working and, occasionally, with the managers to make sure that lines of communication are open. We would certainly not replace a supervisor and we cannot take over their job or tell them what to do. Often, having someone external who can support the autistic individual or scaffold that communication so they can gain those skills and be successful at communicating their needs is vital. From our perspective, it is not quite assistive technology but it is a person who is there to support a person to be successful without getting in the way of them doing their job.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is about whatever tools produce that framework.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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We are running out of time.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will be quick. Mr. Brabazon noted that all groups are going to give out when they do not have multi-annual funding that allows for real forward planning to be done. I welcome that Mr. Brabazon said Specialisterne Ireland is not fighting with anybody in regard to funding, and it is trying to work alongside people and not trying to get into bun fights in that sense. When we had SOLAS before the committee, its representatives spoke about the part of the State infrastructure that could probably be utilised to a greater extent to ensure we have a greater supply of employers who are going to engage in this. They also spoke about using enterprise engagement officers, be they operating through the Department of Social Protection or perhaps through the education and training boards. For us to do this in an holistic and complete way, we would basically have to use all elements of the State and the NGO sector better than we do at the minute. I think that is fair to say.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

I totally agree with everything the Deputy has said.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is a perfect answer.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

It is more a question of co-ordination. It is like efficiency in that it brings more focus on the person who actually needs the support.

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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My question concerns RPM and the feedback I am getting on it from parents and schools. Can I get the views of the participants about the role and value of RPM, whether it is the right track to be going down, what opportunities it creates and if there are any concerns in regard to it?

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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We heard Fiacre Ryan speak about RPM at the first session. How can it help to encourage employment and communication regarding employment for someone who is not verbal? What are the witnesses’ thoughts on that?

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

What exactly does RPM mean? We do not work in schools.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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At our previous session we had Fiacre Ryan, a young, non-verbal autistic person. RPM, or the rapid prompting method, is a method of allowing a non-verbal person to communicate and to be in education. With regard to employment and work for someone who is non-verbal, have Specialisterne Ireland or the unions worked with people who are using this method?

Mr. David Joyce:

I am not aware of it personally. Obviously, it could form part of the content of a reasonable accommodation passport, if that is what the person requires.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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That was the point of our earlier discussion with Fiacre Ryan. It is a method of allowing non-verbal autistic children to communicate. In a way, it is startling that neither group here today has heard of it, and that is an issue in itself.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Do ICTU or Specialisterne Ireland deal with non-verbal autistic people?

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

In general, no. With regard to developments in the employment area, we had to take the low-hanging fruit in terms of the type of skills that were required. What we are now trying to do, in particular when working with communities, is to actually go into that area. My own son would work with applied behaviour analysis, ABA, with cards and all of that type of thing, but I have moved on from that as my son is now 29. I am not familiar with RPM, despite having been involved with a number of charities and having been chairman of another charity when my son was young. It may be that it is just a scheme. Perhaps Ms Murphy has heard of it.

Ms Noreen Murphy:

I have only heard of it used as a teaching tool in using ABA when teaching certain communication skills, but not necessarily in the workplace.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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People need to communicate in the workplace and it is a form of communicating. It is something that needs to be taken on board. As I said, we had an example at our previous meeting, where a young lad had been nominated for the An Post book of the year award and had a book published from that. It is a societal thing that people are not aware of it enough and it is something we wanted to highlight today at our earlier meeting. It is something the witnesses could take on board, look at and support. We also need our educational system to look at this and take it on board further because it needs to be moved on. Naturally, when someone moves from the educational system into the workforce, that method of communicating is also needed in the workforce. I ask that the witnesses would take that on board.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

The transition from third level into work is what we focus on so there may be another transitional issue from secondary into third level. Many of the people we meet have some sort of third level qualification or at least level 6 in something. I am very grateful to the Deputy for bringing this up because it is where we are going. All of the transitions are key. We have always focused on that particular transition because we felt we had to or, otherwise, we would not have got anywhere with the employment side of things.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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Does Deputy Carroll MacNeill have other questions?

Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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There was also a question around how people felt the level of prompting was appropriate or effective, but this has raised a slightly more interesting question, which is that it does not seem to be on the radar yet. Of course, that may change over time. That was what I wanted to ask.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I have some questions of my own. I ask for further information on the passport scheme, which is very interesting and all of the members feel that is definitely a way forward. I know the bus scheme was a fantastic initiative and it just needs to be widened and expanded. I mentioned the awareness scheme, which I believe could be taken on nationally. It is for ICTU and other organisations to promote this. On the figures we have been given, people are not aware of it and we need to make them aware of it.

Ms Murphy is a support worker. With regard to dealing with a young adult, will she give us an example of transitioning a young autistic person into the workforce and where they are today? There is no need to give names.

Ms Noreen Murphy:

One example would be an individual who came to Specialisterne Ireland and had no experience of employment prior to coming to us. We worked with him to help him to communicate his skills and build his confidence in that area, and then helped to transition him into working in a major IT company. However, regarding reasonable accommodations, his particular challenge was sensory. The kind of clothes he needed to wear to be comfortable in his case were tracksuits, whereas at the time the workplace insisted on very formal clothing and the tracksuits were not really working out. After some negotiation, chatting and communicating to the managers about why this was important for the candidate, they agreed.

The individual worked in that business and has since transitioned into another company we work with. He has been there for nine years at this point. He is growing and growing in his career and is an expert in this area. It is a small change-----

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

We could mention his name if we want to because he advocates for us now and has appeared in various videos, including our tenth anniversary video, which we have included in the documents.

Ms Noreen Murphy:

A small change can make a big difference to someone over the course of their life.

Mr. Peter Brabazon:

He was the first candidate. His father now provides us with a bit of financial advice as well so people can get the wage subsidy support scheme. His father works in Revenue so he is a tax expert, as you can imagine.

Micheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is nice to get a hands-on example of someone who has done this transition. I will finish up with a couple of quotes from our previous witness, young Fiacre Ryan. It is really what this is all about. He said:

Try to see past the autism and realise that we are the same inside as others.

[...]

Please listen today to the voices of those who have been silenced by our society. It is time that they are heard, valued and understood.

We as a committee, and collectively in our organisations, have to strive for, push for and make sure every autistic young adult and child is valued and understood and gets the opportunities in life that they are entitled to and deserve. I thank the witnesses for coming in today and being with us. I ask them to forward us their reports with regard to passports. The awareness campaign is something I would like to see them moving on and bringing in other organisations. We can work with them on that to make sure that happens because it needs to happen.