Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Our next business is our engagement with the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Fleming, who has responsibility for financial services, credit unions and insurance, and the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Noonan, who has responsibility for heritage and electoral reform, in respect of petition No. 00036/21 from Ms Katie McNelis on reform of insurance for thatched heritage buildings. Ms McNelis appeared before the committee on 29 September 2022 to present her petition. I welcome her to the Public Gallery. It is nice to see her again.

Before we begin, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the House as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that may be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such a direction.

Before we hear from our witnesses, I propose that we publish the opening statements of the Ministers of State, Deputies Fleming and Noonan, on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

On behalf of the committee, I extend a warm welcome to the Ministers of State. The Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, will make his opening statement first, to be followed by the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan. I suggest that they keep their opening statements to approximately ten minutes each. We will then have questions and comments from members. Each member will have approximately ten minutes and will be encouraged to speak more than once if time allows. I invite the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, to make his opening statement.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chairman and members for the opportunity to address the committee. This is my first time doing so. I am pleased to be here.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it today. The specific question of insurance for thatched roof properties is linked to the condition of the wider insurance market in Ireland. For years the Irish market has suffered a series of economically damaging cycles characterised in part by prohibitive premium costs, and coupled with a high volume of claims. Brexit has added another layer of complexity. Ireland has only one domestic underwriter and is significantly reliant on foreign multinationals to provide insurance cover. London is one of the largest insurance markets in the world and is unique for having a similar common law legal jurisdiction, in comparison with other EU countries. For smaller, more niche sectors, much of their cover was sourced from UK specialist underwriters who passported into the EU to allow them sell their services. This practice has now ended and has made it more expensive and bureaucratic for specialist underwriters to provide their products in Ireland. The Government has limited policy options to influence international insurance developments. However, the Government is determined to deliver a stable domestic insurance market by taking decisive action on the home-grown inputs that shape some elements of insurance premiums.

The action plan for insurance reform is a whole-of-government initiative, which was published in December 2020. Its importance is demonstrated by the fact that its delivery is overseen by a Cabinet sub-group comprised of relevant ministers and chaired by the Tánaiste. The action plan contains 66 actions across five Departments. The recently published third implementation report shows that 90% of these are currently being delivered. The result of this top-down, Government-led initiative is to help encourage competition in the insurance market, to restrain soaring personal injury awards, and to ensure that fraud is reduced as much as possible. We see evidence of the change in the Central Statistics Office's, CSO, consumer price index, which shows that the cost of motor insurance is now more than 43% below its July 2016 peak and 18% below where it was when the action plan was introduced two years ago. One of the most important achievements to date is the introduction of the personal injury guidelines, which were implemented in 2021, six months ahead of schedule. Preliminary data shows they have reduced awards for a range of injuries and Personal Injuries Assessment Board, PIAB, awards are now almost 40% lower than the average payout in 2020 under the old book of quantum used at the time. The Government has also addressed the issue of fraud through the Criminal Justice (Perjury and Related Offences) Act 2021, which became law in June 2022. This criminalised the offence of perjury for the first time and should help redress the issue of fraudulent claims. I also chair the office to promote competition in the insurance market, which was established under the 2020 programme for Government, with a mandate to encourage greater competition in the Irish market.

In the two years since it began the office has held more than 100 meetings with insurance stakeholders. These include engagements with potential new entrants as well as with market incumbents to encourage them to expand their range of product offerings. This is an important part of the process to address perception issues and to build confidence in the insurance environment in Ireland. The office is also working closely with the Industrial Development Authority, IDA, Ireland to encourage new and extra capacity into the Irish market. Due to the success of the reform agenda I am confident that IDA Ireland now has an attractive package to offer prospective market entrants, some of whom I met with recently, and I expect further positive announcements in this regard over the coming months. Work remains ongoing across government to deliver outstanding elements of the action plan. The reforming of the duty of care Occupiers’ Liability Act 1995 is now a key priority for Government. Rebalancing the duty of care should improve the situation for slips, trips and falls, particularly in high footfall sectors including commercial thatched roof properties. Addressing the imbalance in the duty of care can potentially encourage extra capacity in the insurance market for high footfall sectors. Government is also prioritising the Personal Injuries Resolution Board Bill 2022 in the Oireachtas, which will expand PIAB’s remit, address the issue of legal costs, and add mediation to the PIAB settlement process.

One of the major focuses over the past two years has been the issue of pinch point sectors, in which insurance accessibility or affordability has been an issue. I am pleased to report that pinch points have declined to a small number, some of which are sub-areas of already small sectors. In my engagements with these, the importance of setting up group insurance schemes, also called a bottom-up approach, has become the dominant theme in dealing with those particular problems. Group schemes allow businesses to wield significant bargaining and purchasing power, while also offering assurance to underwriters that risks are being centrally managed. Demonstrating to insurers that specific sectors are implementing strict safety standards across the board is key to reducing premiums. I met last week with the Thatch Property Insurance Action Group and we discussed this potential approach. For example, Early Childhood Ireland has recently set up a group scheme. The scheme involves its members accepting obligatory safety standards and engaging closely with both their broker and underwriter to analyse risk trends in order to implement mitigation measures. Significantly there were under bidders for this group scheme in the childcare sector, showing that competition is increasing in the insurance market. Specifically in terms of the issue we are here to discuss developments in the UK show that increased safety standards, as well as group assistance via the thatched owners group for example, gives owners a much greater chance to obtain affordable insurance premiums. The key issue for many groups is no longer availability of insurance but the cost of premiums. I acknowledge pressure points remain and this is a key concern for me. I, therefore, raised the specific issue of thatched roof insurance during my series of engagements with the major insurance companies and brokers in Ireland within the past month. I also impressed on them the need to expand their cover into under serviced areas.

There are clear signs of the market responding to the Government’s reform agenda. One of the large general insurance providers active in the sector has informed me it is fully committed to offering renewals to existing customers in respect of their thatched roof properties, subject to their normal underwriting criteria. I am also pleased to report that other providers have recently entered the market and additional brokers are now interested in providing and obtaining cover. The capacity from existing incumbents augmented by potential new entrants should improve competition in the sector and gradually reduce premiums for thatched roof properties. I am also aware of work being undertaken by Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, and his team to understand the risks associated with thatched properties, with a view to communicating these to providers and owners thus allowing greater scope for mitigating those risks. Like all reform this may take time to fully bed in but I am optimistic that the change under way will improve competition in the market. I communicated this to the Thatch Property Insurance Action Group when I met them last week and I look forward to further engagements with this group as we continue to examine the issue of thatch insurance. The Minister of State will now speak about the work undertaken by his Department to date, including providing support, which may reduce the risks associated with thatched roof properties. I thank the committee for its time and I look forward to hearing its suggestions on how to alleviate insurance issues for this important sector.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I am keenly aware of the challenges facing owners of thatched buildings in securing insurance for their homes and premises. I am also concerned to do all I can as Minister of State with responsibility for heritage to address the problem. Both Heritage Ireland 2030, the new national heritage plan, and A Living Tradition, the new vernacular built heritage strategy, contain actions to address the issue of insurance on protected structures including thatched buildings. On 10 December 2021, I launched A Living Tradition, a strategy to enhance the understanding, minding and handling of our built vernacular heritage. My officials have been working hard to implement the various actions and increase the profile of this significant part of our national heritage. Action 6 of A Living Tradition is to "enhance the protection and conservation of historic thatched roofs." One of the most persistent issues for built vernacular heritage is ensuring the survival of these buildings. The many factors involved make this a complex matter. However, the importance of such roofs, in terms of archaeology and architectural history, vernacular crafts and materials, botany and biodiversity, and their contribution to traditional landscapes is such that everything must be done to address the various threats they face. Insurance in particular has proved to be a significant problem for many owners. As Minister of State for Heritage I am determined to do everything I can to support thatch owners and ensure the preservation of this national resource.

I commend the initiative of the Thatch Property Insurance Action Group in bringing attention to this issue and I welcome a delegation from the group to the Public Gallery. My officials are in direct contact with representatives of the group, keeping them up to date on steps taken so far and providing practical assistance where possible. The Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, and I met with Ciarán McDonnell, Eoin Darby, and Katie McNelis, representatives of the group last week.

We had a very useful exchange of ideas about the best way forward.

Thatch insurance is a long-standing problem but owners have found it increasingly difficult in recent years to insure their buildings at an affordable price. Work is almost complete to establish the facts of the situation in respect of which companies are prepared to provide insurance, the affordability of premiums, the terms and conditions of policies, and what insurers perceive to be the barriers to providing affordable cover. The issue of insurance for thatched buildings took on new urgency in May 2022 when one of the main brokers in the Irish market, OBF Insurance, ceased to provide cover to new customers. My officials have engaged with this broker and they are very much aware of, and concerned about, the difficulties experienced by thatch owners. The broker was forced to close its books to new policies when, following a series of high-value thatch losses due to fire, its thatch underwriter decided it would no longer take on new policies.

Since May, existing policyholders have in general been able to continue insuring their buildings with their current provider, although in some cases the premiums are very high. However, between May and August, there was a period where those seeking to take out new policies were unable to find a provider. In August, a wholesale insurance provider, O’Callaghan Wholesale Insurance, began to write new polices. While the premiums offered may be considered high, at 1% of the reinstatement value, the provision of new policies is welcome and may allow owners to draw down mortgages while work continues to improve the overall situation. Dolmen Insurance has also begun writing new policies and while for the moment its policies will not cover fire, the policies on offer may be of interest to some thatch owners. My officials have circulated these insurer details through the architectural conservation officers and heritage officers in local authorities and also to the Thatch Property Insurance Action Group.

My Department is also engaging with a wider set of stake holders to identify and support additional options for thatched property owners. My officials are consulting colleagues in the Department of Finance, Insurance Ireland, Brokers Ireland, insurers and brokers already in the market, and insurance providers abroad which are interested in entering the Irish market. To date, they have linked three interested UK providers with Brokers Ireland, so that these providers receive support and guidance on the regulatory process. It is expected that the introduction of new entrants would improve the availability of cover and put downward pressure on premiums.

We have also established a steering group expressly tasked with advising on thatched roofs. This group is chaired by a thatcher who is also a thatch owner, and includes a second thatch owner, a representative of the local authority architectural conservation officers, a representative of the local authority heritage officers, a representative of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage's thatching grants section, a representative of the Heritage Council, and a representative of the Northern Ireland Department for Communities. The remit of the steering group is to assist with implementation of action 6 of the vernacular strategy, and its first priority is to work to resolve the urgent issue of affordability and availability of insurance for thatched buildings. It will also examine other relevant issues, including thatching standards, training of thatchers and the availability of suitable thatching materials. The term of membership is three years, which is the duration of the vernacular strategy. I attended the most recent quarterly meeting and was heartened by the engagement and real world experience that was shared and the practical solutions discussed.

Under the oversight of this steering group, my Department is carrying out a national census of thatched buildings. Officials estimate that there are somewhere in the region of 2,000 thatched buildings, both historical and recently constructed, in Ireland. This figure includes the records for thatched buildings from the National Inventory of Architectural Heritage and also thatched buildings that have been identified in surveys commissioned by local authorities. However, the various surveys used different methodologies and some are now up to 20 years old, so this figure cannot be fully relied on. To establish a baseline and assist the insurance sector in understanding the scale of the market, my officials are undertaking a national survey to ascertain the number of thatched buildings, both historical and modern, across all counties. Buildings with thatch under tin roofs are included in this survey as I understand that thatch under tin is categorised in the same way as thatched buildings for insurance purposes.

In addition to putting together statistics on thatched buildings, my officials have sought the facts on the current insurance situation by circulating a targeted and tailored questionnaire to the owners of thatched buildings. The questionnaire seeks to establish whether the property is domestic or commercial, insured or not insured and, if so, the current annual premium. To date, the survey has had an excellent response rate of 497 returns, which my officials estimate represents approximately a quarter of all thatch owners in the country. The questionnaire also gathers data on the fire prevention measures that owners may currently have in place and how these correspond with the fire prevention measures required by various insurers. Information on the companies that are currently insuring the respondents is also returned in the survey. I am very grateful to all the owners who have taken the time to complete and return this important questionnaire. Work on analysing these data is ongoing and I look forward to seeing the results of this analysis at the end of this month.

Of the survey respondents, 414 expressed an interest in being contacted about joining a thatch owners group. My Department has distributed a leaflet to these owners on behalf of the Thatch Property Insurance Action Group. The leaflet invites owners to join a potential group insurance scheme, referred to by the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, which may enable them to secure lower premiums than they would by approaching insurers individually. I am pleased that we have been able to provide this practical support to what is a very worthwhile initiative.

My officials are also working with the national directorate for fire and emergency management, NDFEM, in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to examine the incidence and causes of thatch fires and explore how to mitigate fire risk in thatched buildings. Through the national directorate network, my officials have circulated a questionnaire to the chief fire officers in the local authorities to gather thatch fire data which are expected to be of assistance to the insurance industry, owners, historical building professionals and the local fire services.

To tie this work together, my Department has contracted a historical buildings expert to produce a report on the topic of thatch insurance. We received an interim report at the end of September and are due to receive a final report at the end of this month. This study will consider information received from the insurance industry, owners, fire officers and local authority heritage personnel on the incidence and causes of fire in thatched buildings. It will also examine research undertaken in other jurisdictions on fire prevention measures and explore how these could be implemented in the Irish context.

As we work towards solutions to the current problems, my officials will continue to engage with all relevant parties. We will continue to work with officials in the Department of Finance to facilitate current and possible new entrants to the insurance market. My Department will build on the dialogue and networks that have been established as a result of the survey of thatch owners and will continue to engage with the NDFEM, the building standards section in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, local authority heritage staff and fire officers. We will also seek to progress other thatch specific aspects of action 6 of the vernacular strategy, including the growing of thatching materials and setting thatching standards.

We know that in other countries thatched buildings are insured by commercial providers at rates which owners can afford, indicating that this is not an insoluble problem. The research undertaken by my Department indicates that work must done to improve fire prevention and mitigation in thatched buildings. The expert report, which will be completed at the end of this month, will contain findings that require further development and action, but initial indications are that there is scope to significantly reduce the incidence of fire in thatched buildings in Ireland. This is expected to reduce costs for insurers and, through commercial competition, to bring down premiums. We are aware that different insurers attach very different conditions to their thatch policies, indicating that there is no consensus in the industry on what works to prevent fire in thatched buildings. Authoritative fire prevention guidance for owners, occupiers and insurers that is tailored to the Irish context is essential.

My officials will draw up this guidance in conjunction with the NDFEM and the building standards section in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Following the principles of the Department’s fire safety codes of practice, the guidance will include advice on the management of fire safety and the prevention of fire, limiting the development and spread of fire and providing access and facilities for the fire services. As well as guidance for owners, my Department and the NDFEM will develop standard operating guidance for fire in thatched buildings. This type of guidance is intended for the fire services in local authorities. Recent research into firefighting in thatch indicates that improvements can be made that reduce both roof and building loss, while ensuring that human safety is paramount. This guidance is expected to reduce damage in cases where fire does break out, which would further reduce insurance costs and, ultimately, premiums.

While we develop this guidance, my Department will enhance its investment in the preservation and continued use of thatched buildings so that they remain a living part of our heritage and community life in the future. We already oversee a number of schemes to assist in the conservation of historical thatched buildings, namely, the built heritage investment scheme and the historic structures fund. To address the costs currently being experienced by thatch owners, my Department will in 2023, provide increased support for the maintenance and repair of historical thatched buildings. Through the built heritage scheme, a grant programme that is funded by my Department and operated by the local authorities, I have ring-fenced €500,000 for the repair and maintenance of historical thatched buildings. When added to the €500,000 that is available through the thatching grants scheme open to both historical and modern thatched buildings, this will bring my Department’s support for thatch owners to €1 million next year. I hope this will alleviate some of the financial pressure they currently face.

In addition, we intend to review our thatching grants scheme in 2023 with a view to streamlining the grant process and ensuring that guidance is offered on how best to maintain the traditional character of the thatch.

I acknowledge that conservation grant funding does not directly address the issue of insurance in thatched buildings, but by making additional money available to owners for maintenance and conservation repairs, the Department is taking on a greater share of the overall cost of maintaining our historic thatched buildings, and covering works which owners would otherwise have to fund from their own pockets. It is essential to reduce the risk of fire and minimise losses where fire occurs to address the issue of insurance. This will reduce insurers’ costs and enable them to make reasonable commercial returns while charging affordable premiums. The initial evidence is that substantial improvements can be made in this regard. My officials will continue to work with owners, fire advisers, and the insurance sector to develop and disseminate research-based guidelines and reduce fire risk in thatched buildings.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I forgot to welcome officials from the Departments. As Deputy Buckley has to leave soon, I will allow him to contribute first and then move on to Deputy Devlin.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Ministers of State. I am aware that a lot of work and positive engagement has taken place. It is fabulous that has happened. I have listened to the witnesses. The problem is that the commercial side is not as complicated as the family home. The Minister of State mentioned Insurance Ireland and the Northern Irish Department for Communities and, therefore, it is an all-Ireland issue. It is strange that if someone had an issue with a driving licence and insurance, there is a procedure where a person can approach Insurance Ireland which can force insurance companies to give the person a realistic quote. Can that be done in the same way for people with thatched houses?

I welcome the €500,000 for the repair and maintenance grant. It is positive and welcome. Is there any way the State can provide insurance for these people? It is amazing to see our heritage being protected. Thatched houses can be seen on any country road. People at the committee need answers or some assurance, which sounds strange, about insurance for thatched homes. That is where I am coming from. As I said, I welcome the statements and that the engagement has been excellent. I would like to know if that is a possibility if all goes under. I am interested in knowing whether Insurance Ireland can deal with this in a similar way to car insurance.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for raising the question. I will give him a straight answer. The only form of insurance where there is a legal requirement to have insurance in Ireland is motor insurance. There is no legal requirement for anyone to insure a house, business or anything else, but there is a legal requirement in respect of motor insurance. As it is a legal requirement for the industry and it is obligatory for every car on the road to be insured, if a person has difficulty in getting insurance, for example, due to a bad claims record, there is still an obligation. They have a constitutional right to have a car and a legal obligation to have insurance so the insurance industry is obliged to ensure one of its members quote for insurance. There is a legal obligation for that in the system. That does not apply to anything other than motor insurance because every other insurance policy in Ireland is voluntary. People can buy insurance if they want to and if they do not want to, they do not have to. That system does not apply to any sector of society other than the motor industry because there is a legal obligation.

There are approximately 2.2 million houses in Ireland. No one has hard information on this but our approximate information is that fewer than 1.6 million houses are insured. That tells me that approximately 600,000 houses in Ireland are without insurance. That is the choice of their owners. Perhaps it is because of the cost or perhaps the owners do not feel the need to insure. In those situations there is no obligation.

The Deputy mentioned the possibility of the State being involved. I will be upfront on this. FBD is the only homegrown insurance company left in Ireland. We have had issues with Irish insurance companies going bust in the past and we are all paying for that in levies every year. We have to pay into a fund to help to recoup some of that cost. As insurance is a product that can be provided across the EU, it is governed by the solvency II directive, which is an EU directive on insurance. That means that all insurance companies must comply will the same prudential rules. They cannot sell at a loss, leading them to go into liquidation. If the State - and I use the word "if" - or any state of the EU, were to consider providing insurance to a particular sector of industry, it would be legally obliged to ensure it met all the solvency and liquidity directives under the scheme it set up. That would mean it would only be able to provide insurance at the normal rate available in the industry. The taxpayer is not allowed to subsidise an insurance policy when other people in the same insurance market are buying without a government subsidy. If the Government were to do it, it would have to be done on the basis of making a profit. It could not be done on the basis of making a loss that would be subsidised by the taxpayer. That essentially means that if the State were to go there, it would have to provide the insurance at the going market rate. It could not offer a cheaper rate than the going market rate.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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The State intervenes through grant schemes. On meeting with the insurance action group, it was clear that does not in any way mitigate the challenges faced in insurance. However, the grants are in recognition of the fact that the owners of these properties are custodians of these houses, importantly, on behalf of the State. They are a heritage asset of the State. That is why we are keen to ensure the grants work for owners and are reviewing them to ensure they are adequate to support the maintenance and upkeep of these houses, which can be significant.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise that I will not be able to stay long as I am expected in the Chamber shortly.

I thank the Ministers of State and their officials for coming before the committee to discuss this. We had good engagement with witnesses in the past and I welcome them to the Public Gallery again. This is an important issue and I acknowledge the work the Ministers of State have undertaken since our meeting in September in engaging directly with the Thatch Property Insurance Action Group. I note some positive statements from the remarks made by both Ministers of State.

With respect to the insurance element, I understand what the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, said about the limited number of operators and the limited choice. There is perhaps some light at the end of the tunnel as regards opportunities, especially in the commercial area but, as my colleague stated, the biggest issue is that some people are relying on a commercial insurance policy that is not fit for a residential property. That poses all kinds of challenges for them. Equally, the announcement of a further grant and assistance for people to avail of by the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, is welcome. However, I do not detect a sense of urgency or concern. The Ministers of State mentioned that approximately 490 people responded to the survey, which is quite good. He stated it was about one quarter. Did the Minister of State state there are approximately 2,000 thatched properties in the country? I expected the number to be higher. Nonetheless, regardless of how many there are, in our previous engagement on this matter, I asked about the database that has been spoken about for many years. Will the Minister of State inform the committee regarding its status? It is important that all the owners of these properties, who are custodians, as the Minister of State correctly put it, have an opportunity to link with one another and that the combined problems they face can be dealt with. In fairness to the Ministers of State and their Departments, there is a willingness to try to resolve these issues. No one wants to see thatched properties disappear. I certainly do not want to see any more disappear.

The other element of this is the planning side.

We are dealing with planning on a wider scale at present. However, I hope that when people go to redesign or refurbish a thatched property that a sympathetic eye will be turned to the fact that we want to ensure that we retain these properties in their current format by the architectural conservation officers in the respective local authorities and by the planners. The Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, also mentioned a committee has been established and that a thatcher is chairing it and there is another thatcher on the committee, which is very welcome because we need to ensure we have that expertise. We also said at this committee in September that we wanted to retain the skillset in this country to ensure we can protect these properties. The Ministers of State might respond to those few questions. Unfortunately I have to take my leave of the committee.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I thank the Deputy. I will come in on a couple of points and then I will ask Mr. Sinnott to come in on the specifics around the figures. Deputy Devlin mentioned the figure of 2,000 which is an estimate. As I said, the survey is ongoing. I also referenced thatch-under-tin which can be seen all over the country where there is a galvanised roof with thatch underneath. When I heard that figure, I was shocked and it is a very sad indictment that we are losing these important heritage buildings at such a rate and that is why we developed the vernacular strategy. In other countries, such as Denmark and the UK, the numbers of thatched properties are actually increasing. It is quite stark.

The Deputy is right that the advice and guidance given by architectural conservation officers is not universal. In some counties perhaps some thatched property owners may not feel the support is there and maybe that is down to the absence of a conservation officer in their local authority. It is essential we have those skills in local authorities. Second, on the point about skills, the wider strategy group is addressing. It is looking to try to source and grow native materials in Ireland that can be used in thatching, such as wheat and straw. We are undertaking a piece of work with the Heritage Council around our tradition of vernacular skills and ensuring we have a co-ordinated approach to it. I have met thatchers who have only learned the profession in the last couple of years. Many people are interested in it, both men and women, and it is fantastic to see that. We need to promote that and ensure the skillset is out there to maintain the properties we have. I would ultimately like to see more of them. One of the representatives present in the Public Gallery has a new thatched property, so we want to see more of that and do not want to lose them.

I will ask Mr. Sinnott to come in on the other question.

Mr. Daniel Sinnott:

On the database, the information we currently have is drawn from a series of surveys carried out by the national inventory for architectural heritage and by local authorities. Some of those surveys are quite recent, so the data is reasonably up to date. However, some of them are up to 20 years old, so we know there have been changes since then. There might be some additional thatch buildings in some cases and in many other cases there would have been losses in thatch which is why we give an approximate figure of 2,000. We are trying to draw a line between a few different information points over time. To address that uncertainty, we are carrying out the national thatch census, which the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, referred to, so there are surveyors in the field at the moment and we will begin to get reports on certain areas before Christmas. We expect to be able to complete that census by February next year. At that point, we will have more reliable figures for the exact number of thatched buildings per local authority.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Could Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, come in on the question about the insurance industry?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge the role of the Thatch Property Insurance Action Group, which is very important. In regard to the insurance industry, different sectors have come to us, whether the equine centres, the play centres, the bouncy castle centres or the leisure and amenities sector, all of which had difficulties getting insurance individually. However, when they came together and put a group scheme together, they had purchasing power. Then the major insurance companies listened to 20 of those which came together. In the case of thatched roofs, nobody would know what size a big group scheme would be but if somebody has 100, 200 or 300, that is a sizeable book to go to any major insurance company with.

In my work in the past two years, all of the areas where there were pinch-point problems have ended up being dealt with by a group scheme or people coming together rather than people contacting insurance companies on an individual basis. It was a key element and I would suggest that. At Government level, we have only been able to do that with a whole-of-government approach. At the Department of Finance, which has responsibility for insurance and regulated business through the Central Bank, we have one role. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has a role here. The legislation I mentioned in my opening statement is the responsibility of the Department of Justice. It will not be solved by my Department alone or by Minister of State, Deputy Noonan's Department. It will only be solved by a couple of Departments coming together. That is why I welcome, in the public forum, the whole-of-government approach with the two Departments here. It is only through a couple of Departments working together that we will get some resolution to this as time goes by.

Then the issue will be price and we have found up to now that the issue is to get one full cover and then maybe in year two, when other people know it is a profitable business, there will be some competition on price in year two, but maybe not in year one.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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That is a fair point and I agree with that.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I have a few questions. If one looks at the Public Gallery there are families who are struggling to get insurance now. Ms McNelis's mother had to close her business and Mr. Darby cannot move into his house. It is all well and good talking about surveys and more reports. I am quite sure there are files of reports on this. I came through Adare last week and Holycross in Tipperary is only a couple of miles from me and I go by it on a regular basis. We said during the committee meeting in September that unless something is done, and quickly, we run a massive risk of only seeing thatched places on postcards. I think it was Mr. Darby who said that the last day. Surely that should ring alarm bells straight away with Ministers or the Government.

I have a question for the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, who said in his opening statement that "Action 6 of A Living Tradition is to 'enhance the protection and conservation of historic thatched roofs'. One of the most persistent issues for built vernacular heritage is ensuring the survival of these buildings". Why was no action taken on this issue when it became clear that insurance companies would not cover them? We have listened to Ms McNelis who told the committee about her mother having to close down her business, a rural pub in Tipperary, because she could not get insurance. Surely something should have been done and alarm bells should have been ringing before it got to a stage where families had to close businesses or were unable to move into their houses?

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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What is critical is that we are acting with urgency now. There have been significant efforts down the years to try to resolve this issue. It is hugely challenging and the catalyst in our Department was the development of the vernacular strategy and ensuring we have, as Minister of State, Deputy Fleming said, a whole-of-government approach to it. In terms of reassurance to owners of thatched properties, who are listening, the report we will have at the end of the month will help. The work of the thatched working group in our Department has been very useful because it is trying to tease out a myriad of issues affecting the owners of thatched properties, not just insurance issues. Reducing the risk will help and, hopefully, a quite clear direction will emerge from the report around reducing the fire risk I hope will help with the insurance premiums.

To answer the Chairman's question, I share his concerns. It would be devastating to continue to lose these houses. I would love to see a time where there would be more thatched properties entering our building stock. We are acting with urgency on this in both Departments.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate what the Minister of State is saying and I appreciate we cannot lose business because the cottages in Adare bring business to the town and it is the same in Holycross as they are holiday homes.

We are talking about families who have had to close businesses and who cannot move into houses, in particular. Mr. Darby went to the trouble of doing up the whole house, including taking out fires and doing everything possible. The only thing that has come across over the last couple of years is that insurance companies are doing what they like again right across the sector, not just here. I do not have any personal gripe with the Minister or the Department, but insurance companies are doing what they like right across the sector. It is time we took them on.

Much was said about fire protection measures to attract more companies into the business and provide cover for thatched buildings. I will assume there is a limit to the range of fire prevention measures to which owners can actually give effect. Mr. Darby told us previously that he did everything he possibly could. I am sure those who seek insurance have done that to the limit. Is there a scheme whereby the Government could give continuing funding to protect those structures maintenance-wise? If it is saying the buildings need to be protected, surely there must be some responsibility on the Government. It seems to fall under the remit of a few Departments. Surely, there must be some responsibility for our thatched buildings. The funny thing is that when I was listening to the radio on my way down to County Tipperary yesterday, I heard a thatcher on one of the programmes who has a five-year waiting list to do up buildings. It would be an awful pity for us to lose thatched buildings, which are recognised right across the world as one of our big selling points in tourism and the whole lot. Is there any way the Government can contribute to funding to protect those structures through a grant? If a building with a thatched roof has a fireplace, perhaps funding can be given to take out the fireplace and to do up the house.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I will ask Mr. Sinnott to come in. As I mentioned, the two grant schemes we have are a recognition of the significant maintenance duties of the owners of thatched properties.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a limit on the grant that can be applied for?

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I will ask Mr. Sinnott to come in on that and specifically on the question of varying those grants, which we are reviewing at the moment.

Mr. Daniel Sinnott:

On the question of the limit on the grant schemes, I would point out that there are different limits on different schemes. Under the thatch repair grant, a grant can be made of up to €8,000 in the ring-fenced funding the Minister recently announced under the built heritage investment scheme. Up to €20,000 can be applied for. Then, particularly special buildings may get funding under the historic structures fund, which can be much more substantial again. It can, in fact, be up to €200,000. That is in special circumstances. Grant funding is, therefore, available for maintenance and repair and then also for more fundamental conservation.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry; maintenance and repair is small work compared to a person having to redo a house or take out a fireplace and the whole lot. Are there substantial grants if I have a thatched house, and one of the conditions before I can get insurance on it is that I need to take out my fireplace? What kinds of grants are there for families who are caught in that situation?

Mr. Daniel Sinnott:

At the moment, while we are waiting for the report at the end of this month and the finalisation of the fire protection guidance, we do not know yet what the proper fire prevention measures are. When we know what they are, we can review our grant schemes accordingly and consider whether the grants could be put towards some of those fire prevention measures. The early indications we have from the expert who is drawing up the initial report are that many of the fire prevention measures are fairly straightforward and relatively low cost.

What we will do in the first instance is put our efforts into identifying what works to reduce fire risk. The Chairman mentioned that many owners have carried out lots of works to try to prevent fire. What we are finding, however, is that different insurance companies look for very different things to be done, and the measures they are looking for are not necessarily supported by the evidence that is available on what actually works to reduce fire risk. The first step is to establish a better understanding of what the proper changes are in the building and we can consider at that point how they should be funded. As I said, the initial indications are that the measures are quite simple and quite low cost. It may not, therefore, be a major barrier.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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We are told the action plan contains 66 actions and it is right across five Government Departments. How will the implementation of these actions be monitored? Is there a timeframe on them? The timeframe is all-important to families. Will these 66 actions be ranked by importance? Have we a timeframe? Mr. Sinnott referred to the end of the month. Is it definite that this report will be out at the end of the month?

Mr. Daniel Sinnott:

We expect to receive the report at the end of the month. The action plan with the 66 actions may be on the insurance side.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The action plan on insurance reform is a whole-of-government approach, led by the Tánaiste, and involves a number of Government Departments. We have been talking specifically about a report by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage that is coming out in the near future, which will help us on the insurance side.

In recent weeks, we published the third implementation report, which is on the public record. I am sure the committee may have a copy of it. It was issued in recent weeks. More than 90% of the action measures the Government can do have been done. There are two pieces of legislation to go through the Oireachtas, hopefully between now and Christmas. Then, for some of the measures we put in, there is a timeline between the Government completing its action plan and what happens next. Normally, what happens next is that there is often a judicial challenge to some of the actions we have taken in terms of the new guidelines and new legislation and award levels. That has to work its way through the courts. When there is certainty in the courts about what the Oireachtas has done, we then see a reduction in premiums across the board because of the better risk appetite the insurance companies have when they see these measures in place. Some of that has already happened in motor insurance but it is taking a little bit longer on the business insurance side because the legislation is only being finalised in the Oireachtas this month.

The main issue existed when I came into this job. I know people will say there were issues in insurance long before Brexit. Brexit absolutely exacerbated the problem, however, because most of the insurance in this sector was coming from the UK. Once the UK decided to leave the EU, the insurance companies could not sell from London into Ireland or any EU country anymore. We were left with a gap way worse than we ever had before Brexit happened. When I met the insurance companies, they said that because of the high cost of claims in Ireland, which we all know about with courts trying to deal with exaggerated cases, there is uncertainty about the court awards. All the insurance companies bar one here are foreign multinational companies. Everyone present knows their names. They said there is so much uncertainty in the Irish market because they could never predict what award levels will be in the courts. New companies had no interest in coming into Ireland.

The Industrial Development Authority, IDA, has in recent months seen what the Government has done and has put together a fantastic programme. It has approached 20 insurance companies from Europe, the United States and even the Southern Hemisphere on a one-by-one basis to say the insurance situation in Ireland is much better than it was three or four years ago and to please come and have a look. It is, therefore, engaging with them to bring in new companies. A UK company that does thatched roofs has indicated its interest to come back. It has to go to the Central Bank of Ireland in 2023 to get authorisation, however. It is not through yet. I am hopeful that will happen. That is only an example of the recent meetings we have had. We will get some new underwriters back into Ireland that left at the time of Brexit. I am hopeful some of that can happen in the coming year. I cannot be any more definite on that. The company to which I referred has to put in its application to the Central Bank of Ireland to get approval, which always take a number of months in any event.

That is an indication. We met Brokers Ireland recently, as well as the individual major brokers in the country. When we specifically put the question to them about not dealing with thatched properties, one or two of the leading brokers, over and above the ones that the people in the audience would be familiar with, undertook at our request to look at the market. It is only in recent weeks that we met them and asked them to do that. I am waiting for a response but extra brokers are now looking at the market that were not doing so before.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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In his opening statement, the Minister of State advised that "the Government is determined to deliver a stable domestic insurance market by taking decisive action on the home-grown inputs that shape some elements of insurance premiums." How is that going to be delivered, seeing as it has not been done so far?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The biggest element of that is the personal accident injury guidelines, where people who have a slip, trip or fall hurt their back or neck. Up to now, awards were given under the old regime before the new Government came in and the new guidelines were set by the Judiciary, at the Government's request. The Government did not write the new reduced award levels, and neither did the industry or consultants, it was the Judiciary that did the job because judges are the people in court who make the decisions. They have made decisions on what the reduced awards should be, and they are the people adjudicating on them. We have seen a 40% reduction in recent months for small injuries to make the insurance environment much more affordable. Some of those awards are under judicial review. The ones that have come through that process have been very good in that the reduced awards have been stood over. The reason for the judicial reviews is that people are not happy with the reduced awards. They say that if they had the same accident three years ago, they would have got more than they are getting now. It is human nature that the awards are being challenged, but the courts are standing over the awards. I hope in the very immediate future the last of these judicial review cases will be confirmed in the High Court and then the insurance companies will be able to pass on reduced premiums with certainty.

That is not specifically to do with the thatched roof industry, but if the insurance companies that operate from Europe and America in Ireland now see Ireland as a stable place to issue insurance, we will get more insurance companies into the market when they see the stability.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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This comes back to what I said earlier, that insurance companies do as they please. Do we have any indication of the percentages of claims that are deemed fraudulent?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will answer that in this way. We have all seen reports in the media in recent years about fraudulent cases. Up to now, there has been little or no successful prosecution in cases of fraud in insurance because it was not a criminal offence. The Government brought in legislation to make perjury a criminal offence for the first time ever. It is only very recently that the Garda have the authority to pursue a claim for perjury as a criminal offence. That is a very new development and it will be helpful in terms of putting people off making perjurious statements in the courts.

Up to now when a judge on the bench or other person might make an accusation of fraud, it was sent to the local Garda division. I met Commissioner Harris last year specifically on this. The Garda now has one centralised area where all claims will be dealt with centrally but investigated locally. There will be consistency. What might be said to look like fraud or an exaggerated claim in one county might be considered something else in another Circuit Court or District Court. For the first time ever, the Garda now have legislation so they can prosecute people for perjury. The monitoring centre is located centrally in the Garda division in Dublin, in order that it is being done consistently across the country. That is a very new initiative. I do not know if there have been any successful prosecutions yet for perjury. There may not have been because it is a very new offence that was only introduced in recent months.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I have more questions, but I will let Deputy Higgins in.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank everyone for being here today. I apologise for being late but I am attending the Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage next door, so I am trying to double job. It is great to see two Ministers of State from two Departments represented here today. That is pretty unusual in my experience of committees. It is a great example of why cross-departmental collaboration is so important.

The Joint Committee on Public Petitions is a very interesting one because it is where something has come to us from a member of the public. It has usually come because a person has exhausted all other options or because it is a cross-departmental issue, and we need to get the right people around the table in order to make progress. I thank the Ministers of State for being present today to show that strength of collaboration.

The Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, referred in his opening statement to the fact that thatching is a living tradition. Unfortunately, it is also a dying trade. Newstalk did a feature on it earlier in the week. That is also the case with so many trades in Ireland, which unfortunately are dying. We want to make sure that things that are part of our heritage continue to be visible. I holiday every year in Wexford and I love seeing the thatched cottages dotted around the place. They are a significant tourist attraction. They are a great way of celebrating and recognising our heritage and these living traditions and old trades.

Fire prevention must be a key priority when it comes to any property, whether that is a home, a public house or another business premises. I agree with what Mr. Sinnott says about reducing the risk of fire. That goes hand in hand with what the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, has been talking about in terms of reducing the insurance premiums, because if we can reduce the risk and reduce the insurance premium that would make it so much more accessible for people. Right now, it is not accessible for people. That is what we hear on the ground from people who want to own a property that is thatched or who want to continue to keep a property alive and to renovate it. We are in the midst of a housing crisis, and we talk about vacancy and tackling dereliction. We must make sure that none of these places end up in that situation. The way to do that is to give people equal and fair access to insurance. I welcome the point made by the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, that the report is due at the end of this month. It would be very helpful if it was circulated to this committee once it is published.

In terms of the 66 actions to which the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming referred, it is incredible that after the third implementation report that 90% of what the Government can do has now been done. I know there are legal cases and issues outside the Government's control that must proceed through the courts, but that is a great achievement in itself. He has set out for us today that because of that we are not only attracting foreign direct investment, FDI, but we are getting back FDI that we lost because of this situation. That is a very big deal because it means jobs on the ground in communities around the country. It is very important that it is happening.

While those jobs are critical, the other jobs that are important are the jobs of thatchers and the jobs of those who work in pubs with thatched roofs. We want to make sure the message is being heard loud and clear here today. We heard talk previously about the idea of an insurance ombudsman. Would that perhaps deal with some of the issues the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, has been outlining in terms of fraudulent cases and the premium reductions being enforced? If we were to go down that route and it is something he is interested in looking at, does the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, think thatched roofs could come under it, as a stream within a potential insurance ombudsman's workstream?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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My understanding on the ombudsman situation is that it is a regulated business and a complaint can go to the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman, FSPO, from any consumer. The FSPO handles all financial services. It is a separate issue, but 28,000 people are employed in the insurance sector in Ireland, so it is quite a big industry. There are still some gaps and pinch points with cover.

The one thing no ombudsman, the Government or the Central Bank can do is direct prices because the competition in respect of the insurance market is Europe-wide and once a company is regulated in Ireland it can sell into other EU countries and vice versa. Every insurance company bar one is from outside the State so we cannot regulate prices here. The minute we do that we would have no insurance because they would not come if we did so, and it would breach every EU treaty if we tried to do that.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State is correct that we cannot interfere in the prices being set, but how do we ensure that reductions are being passed on to consumers? How do we ensure that premiums are reducing as a result of the action plan?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I will make two points on that. First, the CSO produces regular information, some on a monthly and some on a quarterly basis. It will be self-evident, independently of the Government. Second, the Central Bank produces information on claims in a number of sectors in a claims database. It has been doing so once a year. We have requested that from the start of next year, it produces some of these reports every six months.

The quality of the information that our Central Bank produces on the insurance industry in Ireland is far superior to that of any other central bank in other countries. Only in the past fortnight, the Central Bank issued its most recent report on the motor industry. It contains all the granular information about costs and numbers of claims because the Central Bank regulates that industry. It does not just regulate but supervises that sector and has access to every piece of information in it. That is why in recent months the Central Bank believed, and it is not unconnected to this matter, that having looked at all the information there might be a level of under-insurance in the homes market. It wrote to every chief executive. People might have repeated whatever value they put on their houses many years ago even though the value may have gone up. The Central Bank estimates some houses have been undervalued by up to 15%. It has written to every insurance company asking them to contact their customers when insurance renewals come up to make sure the valuation customers estimate for rebuilding costs takes account of increasing costs over the years. The Central Bank is very much on the case. It is independent of the Government and is ultimately the supervisor in this area.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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While we are on the subject of undervaluation, one matter that has come across my desk in my constituency is the undervaluation of second-hand cars. We are now in a market where second-hand cars are worth more than they were last year instead of depreciating, which we are very much used to. When such a car is stolen, following a claim the owner does not end up with enough money to be able to purchase something of similar value. I am not asking the Minister of State to comment on what the Central Bank might think, but would he say the same might be true of car insurance and that perhaps a call could go out to members of public to make sure that when they are renewing, they are keeping that figure accurate?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I am very pleased. The Deputy is the first person to say that to me. I encourage her to say it out loud again outside of today's meeting. The Central Bank concentrated on house and home insurance because bigger figures are involved. I see exactly where the Deputy is going on this. While I cannot tell the Central Bank what to do, it is no harm that this is now said about insurance in public forums. I am sure it is listening.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I thank the Deputy for her comments. I agree with her. This is a very powerful committee because it is very democratic. From our perspective, when we engage with the Department of Finance, it is very open in its responses. We welcome the amount of work that the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, and his team have put into this. As I said in response to the Cathaoirleach's question, from the Government's perspective, there is an urgency to resolving these issues.

The Deputy raised a number of points regarding skills and this is something we are working with the Heritage Council on. If thatchers have a waiting list of five years for projects, it suggests there are probably not enough skilled professionals working in the area. We need to work on that. Our departmental working group is working on a range of those issues, including the skill set, the growing of the materials in Ireland, insurance and other issues. We will see the fire safety recommendations come forward from the report at the end of the month. If simple measures can be implemented in a house that will reduce the risk of fire by 50% or 60%, then the premiums should reflect that. The reduction in premiums should reflect the mitigation and reduction of risk in houses. It is to be hoped that will all become clear in the next number of weeks when the report's recommendations are published. On the other element around the grants, as I said, we are ensuring that those grants are supportive for the maintenance and upkeep of those houses.

I will say again that we want to do all we can to ensure that we do not just stop losing these houses. We all love looking at them and taking photographs of them but they represent a burden - that is the word I use - on the property owners at times. It is critically important that we stop losing these houses and actually start increasing the numbers of them in Ireland. That is where we are determined to work collectively across Government to address the issues.

Emer Higgins (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Fantastic. I appreciate that. The Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, mentioned the shortage of skilled professionals. It is all linked, as I am sure he and his officials know. It is not an attractive proposition to go into a trade if people feel that insurance will prohibit them from taking up their skills. The fact that we need more people with this skill set, and to consider training in it to be able to thatch those roofs, all goes hand in hand with the fact that we need reform to deliver for people to make owning a thatched home, renovating a thatched home or owning a thatched pub a viable proposition. Those two things are intrinsically linked. I thank both Ministers of State and the officials in their Departments. It is great to see such collaboration on this. I look forward to the results.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I will come back to what the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, said regarding the Department's suggestion of potential group insurance to owners. Will he expand a little further on that? For example, how many members are needed in such a group? Is there a set limit? If owners cannot reach that required number, what happens? I will also come back to the figure for the number of thatched properties in the country. I think a figure of 3,000 was quoted at a previous meeting.

Mr. Daniel Sinnott:

It is 2,000.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Nobody knows the answer to that question. I am honest enough to say that. We understand that approximately 800 houses have insurance recurring on a year-to-year basis. The issue is about those which do not have insurance or where a property changes hands and the new owner cannot get insurance. The owner will get a renewal if there is no change in ownership but the issue, as we speak, is that the majority of those 2,000 properties do not have insurance.

The answer to the Chair's question is that we have asked a couple of the major brokers to look into it. Some of them quoted a figure off the top of their heads without looking at the data. There is no magic figure. Logic tells me that a broker is in a strong negotiating position with a group of 300 people, but a group of 400 or 500 people means that broker is in a much stronger position to negotiate with insurance companies. We will ask for feedback from brokers on what they believe is a reasonable group scheme, whether it is large or small. There is no one magic figure. I do not know what that figure is but we will undertake to talk to the underwriters through the brokers as to what would be a good, viable group scheme for a broker to give a quote to. We have seen it in the other industries I mentioned, and in play areas and bouncy castles. It depends on the size of the premiums a broker can put together in order to go to an insurance company. We will come back with information when the brokers give us some indication of what they consider to be a viable group.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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One of the other suggestions that came up in the Department's negotiations with stakeholders, and came up at this committee in September, was that flood cover schemes be more widely available as part of home insurance. Could a similar scheme be introduced for thatched properties? Has it even been investigated? Has the Department even considered that?

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No. I know there is a scheme in the UK. Since it is a bigger market of more than 50 million people, it has a bigger reinsurance market. When a company issues an insurance policy, it sells on the risk to another company that reinsures it. As Ireland is such a small market, it does not have the same reinsurance market as that in the UK that would allow the risk to be spread across other companies. It is because of the size of the Irish economy. We are not as strong as the UK regarding that issue. One of the companies I mentioned, which is big in the thatched property industry in the UK, has expressed an interest in coming to Ireland and will commence discussions with the Central Bank. That is months away, however. I can honestly say that process takes months. We looked at the flood scheme approach. The view so far is that it might lead to considerable financial exposure for the State, if the State was to get directly into that market. At this point, we have a road to travel.

I am not saying that is a viable last resort. We have all these other measures to go through first.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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What do the Ministers of State expect the report to address specifically? The owners have been left in limbo. What assurance can the Ministers of State give the owners that this will be resolved as soon as possible and that the report will give a clear indication of what they need to do to get insurance cover? If there are further reports or delays, Mr. Darby will not be able to build his house and more people like Ms McNelis's mother will have to sell premises and businesses that they have had all their lives. In some cases, the property has been passed down through generations of a family. What are the Ministers of State expecting the report to contain that will alleviate the situation for people such as those in the Public Gallery?

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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We see the report containing an initial set of recommendations in respect of the matters outlined by Mr. Sinnott, namely, practical, possibly low-cost, measures that could be taken to reduce fire risk. We will then work with the national directorate for fire and emergency management and other experts to try to develop guidance in that regard for property owners. That is probably one of the key and most significant matters in terms of reducing fire risk in the properties. The hope is that those measures will have a positive knock-on effect on premiums.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We have had this in the childcare sector. The fee is not significant. There is a set of guidelines to reduce fire risk in the childcare sector. What happens in the group schemes that have worked in other areas is that, through an association or group, there is an inspection of each property to ensure it has the measures in place. Such an inspection may take place once a year, and it is not a major inspection. It happens in the childcare sector. The premises not only needs to have an insurance policy, it also needs to be certified as having been visited by an independent person once a year to ensure it is happening. That gives an element of comfort to the insurance company because it provides an assurance that the house or other property has been checked out. As such, the company does not have to do that on a case-by-case basis. That has happened in respect of childcare centres. There is an annual inspection independent of the owners and insurance companies. That gives confidence to everybody involved that what people say they have done has been done. The cost of that is quite small, relative to the cost of insurance. That would probably be a natural follow-on in terms of trying to put a group scheme together. It would provide verification for the insurance company that the standards and improvements that have been suggested are actually happening.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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One of the problems I have with that is that although we can give families specific targets they need to reach, the issues relating to insurance companies will continue. I am looking at one of the opening statements, which points out that there is no consensus in the insurance industry regarding what works to prevent fire in thatched buildings. All present are of an age where we can remember when buildings with thatched roofs had open fires and there was no risk. I remember the pub in Tipperary that we were discussing. Many of the pubs in Tipperary had thatched roofs and there was no danger of fire. Ms McNelis's family have done everything, They have taken out the open fire and cut down the risk but they cannot get insurance. You are damned if you do and damned if you do not. I come back to the point that until the Government comes down hard on insurance companies, whether through legislation or otherwise, we will continue to have situations such as this. Is there any indication that an agreement between the insurance companies as to what they would class as a fire risk will come about as a result of this report? That would reassure families or business owners that if they take out an open fire or put in extra protection, there will be cover available. As it is, even after the report, I do not see any clarity for the families in question.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The only commitment I can give is that when we see that report, our offices will speak directly to Insurance Ireland, which is the representative body for all the insurance companies. That is an absolute commitment. As soon as we have the report, we will speak to Insurance Ireland, which represents practically all the insurance companies operating in the State. That will be our immediate first step.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. I have no more questions, and there are no other members present. I invite the Ministers of State to make their closing remarks.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We have covered all the topics. I thank the committee for the invitation to appear. This is my first time before the committee. I did not know much about it previously. I am pleased to see it in action.

Deputy Higgins referred to the cross-departmental nature of the committee. That is good for the Oireachtas. Most committees are line Department committees that have one area of focus, whereas at this committee several Departments can come together. Most things at Government level involve Departments working together. We have seen that here today. It is my first time to experience it. I compliment the work being done by the Chairman and the committee. I appreciate the value of having more than one Department appearing before the committee.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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On behalf of the committee, I apologise for the low attendance. The Ministers of State and the families are present, but the meeting clashed with the meetings of other committees. There are normally far more members present.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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Like my colleague, I thank the Chair and committee members for their consideration and questions. I assure members and the representatives from the Thatch Property Insurance Action Group in the Public Gallery and those watching online that we are working collaboratively and with a sense of urgency to address these issues. As I stated, we want to ensure that we keep the houses and other properties in good condition and to support their owners. We know they are doing a valuable job on behalf of the State in terms of our heritage assets. That is why the vernacular strategy is an important part of what we are trying to do across Government. I thank my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, and his team, as well as my own team. There is an incredible amount of work going into this and we are determined to ensure that people can enjoy the houses in which they live, including thatched houses, and celebrate them rather than see them as a challenge. I, too, am familiar with some of the fantastic thatched houses in Tipperary, such as in Cloneen. They are beautiful and a really important part of our landscape from all perspectives. I again thank the Chair and the committee for their consideration.

I agree with the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming. This is a fantastic committee. It is democratic and welcome that members of the public can provide their input and have this level of engagement on issues of importance.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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We will suspend the meeting for five minutes to allow the witnesses to leave.