Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 8 November 2022
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Planning and Local Government
Implementing Housing for All: Discussion (Resumed)
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I welcome everybody to the committee. We are continuing our series of meetings of engagement with local authorities from throughout the country. From Limerick City and County Council I welcome Dr. Pat Daly, Ms Caroline Curley and Mr. Gordon Daly in the committee room, and online we are joined by Mr. Joe Delaney, Mr. Conor Culloo and Ms Sarah Newell. They are welcome and I thank them for their opening statement. From Waterford City and County Council we are joined by Mr. Michael Walsh and Mr. Ivan Grimes. I welcome them back to the committee. They assisted us with our urban regeneration report and it was helpful. I thank them for their opening statement.
We are engaging with local authorities from throughout the country to look at housing delivery, including historical delivery and the projections and delivery under Housing for All. It is a helpful engagement for members and we have met the four Dublin local authorities, Galway City Council and Cork City Council. We are also engaging with the local authorities in the greater Dublin area, including in Louth, Kildare, Meath and Wicklow. The committee agreed today that we will also engage with others that are involved in the provision of housing, including affordable housing bodies, the Land Development Agency, the Department and the Minister.
I will read a brief note on privilege before we commence. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, to participate in public meetings. For witnesses attending in the committee room, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meeting. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Those who are attending online have limited privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a person who is physically present within the Leinster House complex. Both members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy. It is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction. Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I will begin with Dr. Daly from Limerick and then take Mr. Walsh from Waterford City and County Council. There are a number of people deputising and substituting in the committee. The format we follow is a seven-minute segment for each member. The seven minutes consists of time to ask questions and receive answers. It is helpful if members direct questions to a particular witness or group.
I invite Dr. Daly to make the opening statement on behalf of Limerick City and County Council.
Dr. Pat Daly:
I thank the committee for inviting us to report on the implementation of Housing for All in Limerick. I am joined by colleagues, as the Chair has outlined. In the period from 2018 to 2021, a total of 3,256 social housing supports were delivered. Of this 551 homes were provided via new build, 235 homes were acquired, 322 homes were leased, and a further 2,147 tenancies were supported through the housing assistance payment, HAP, and the rental accommodation scheme, RAS.
The projected social housing target for Limerick is to deliver 2,693 homes by 2026. This target is a build target only. In 2022, a total of 458 homes will be delivered, which will be achieved through a combination of new build, acquisitions and leasing. There are 41 projects on site under construction, which will deliver 390 homes when completed by the middle of next year. We have a strong delivery pipeline to deliver new homes by 2026. We have 1,220 homes approved in the system at various stages, for example, feasibility, planning and pre-tender. This is 45% of our overall five-year target approved at this point in year 1 of Housing for All. We have a further 1,616 homes at pre-approval stage in the process of submitting to the Department for funding. Based on progress to date, we are well-positioned to reach our overall target.
Under the housing delivery action plan, Limerick has a target to deliver 1,156 affordable homes, of which 665 homes will be council-led through turnkeys and direct builds with the balance of 491 homes to be delivered by the approved housing body, AHB, sector under cost rental and the Land Development Agency, LDA. Under the council-led programme, we have identified a delivery pipeline of 1,267 homes across 22 projects through a mix of advance purchase turnkeys, serviced site fund, local infrastructure housing activation fund, LIHAF, and urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, schemes.
To ensure delivery of mixed tenure on large sites, the council is promoting an approach where 50% of the scheme is assigned to affordable homes - either cost rental or affordable purchase, 30% to social rental homes and 20% promoted for a private right-sizing model. The council has recently concluded a successful right-sizing pilot at Mungret Gate in the city in partnership with Clann Housing and sees a latent demand for this tenure type.
In terms of cost rental provision, the council is progressing 313 homes across three projects for hand-over in 2025 and 2026. Partnering with an AHB-led consortium, the council is concluding a Part 8 process for 18 cost rental homes as part of a mixed tenure scheme of 36 homes at Speaker’s Corner in the city. Another city site at New Road is preparing to lodge for planning this month for a mixed tenure scheme of 46 homes, of which 25 will be cost rental. The council signed a memorandum of understanding in September 2022 with the LDA to progress the delivery of cost rental on council-owned land and other State-owned lands at Colbert Quarter, which will deliver approximately 270 homes for cost rental in the first phase.
Delivery of social housing has been affected in Limerick by a range of factors, including the Covid lockdown and site closures, material supply-cost inflation issues and labour shortages on site common to many other areas. Particular issues in Limerick have included contractor receivership, a judicial review process relating to a large mixed tenure residential scheme under Part 8 and the absence of a leasing and acquisition target under Housing for All.
Unlike previous years under the Rebuilding Ireland programme, Limerick now has a zero target for leasing and acquisitions for the next five years that we are discussing with the Department to amend to assist in our delivery programme. However, we still as a council pursue acquisitions and leasing, for example, mortgage to rent, to prevent homelessness even though they are not counted against our target. Regardless of all these challenges, the council remains strongly committed to deliver a strong programme to achieve our housing targets.
From 2018 to 2021, Limerick delivered 77 new social homes under Part V. We are seeing a significant ramping up of delivery under Part V as more permissioned sites are being activated. Currently for 2022, 32 Part V homes have "sale closed" and completed with a further 26 to close by year-end. The year 2022 will deliver the highest number of Part V homes for the council - 58 homes - since the new Part V provisions came into being in 2016. The council is leading the way by using Part V to de-congregate institutional settings at Bawnmore and Lisnagry in accordance with the national policy Time to Move On. The council has delivered a number of Part V community dwellings that accommodate four to five service users with a 24-7 carer. The council is forecasting 579 Part V homes to be delivered by the end of 2026 based on signed agreements. However, Part V delivery is fully reliant on private sector delivery and any downturn in the private market will reduce the supply of Part V homes. In the event of a downturn, the council will pursue land for transfer as a default Part V obligation rather than homes on-site, which will ensure early activation and delivery of much-needed homes.
In line with pathway 4 of Housing for All, Limerick City and County Council is making significant progress in addressing vacancy and dereliction in the privately owned housing stock in its administrative area. The council established a dedicated dereliction, vacancy and re-use unit in 2018 and has employed a full-time vacant homes officer since that time. The council has adopted an area-based approach where derelict sites, vacant homes and vacant sites are all dealt with by one multidisciplinary team.
Limerick City and County Council has taken a very robust approach to dealing with dereliction and since 2019 has completed over 4,200 inspections of derelict and vacant properties in Limerick. This has resulted in over 1,500 statutory notices being served on property owners under the Derelict Sites Act 1990 indicating the considerable level of work being undertaken in this area.
In our experience, the best approach is to first identify and tackle derelict residential property as the vast majority of these are also vacant. In a large number of cases, owners of properties engage with the council and a significant amount of housing stock has been brought back into use arising from this activity. Where owners do not engage or cannot be found, the particulars of the land are entered in the statutory derelict sites register held by the council. With 388 active entries currently on the register, this represents significant progress in identifying unproductive and derelict properties in Limerick. Housing for All contains an objective for local authorities to acquire at least 2,500 vacant units by 2026 and present them to the market for sale.
Limerick City and County Council is one of most proactive local authorities in the country in terms of using its compulsory acquisition powers under the Derelict Sites Act 1990. The council has compulsory acquired 145 properties in the past three years with a further 21 applications for consent currently awaiting determination by An Bord Pleanála. A further eight vacant houses have been acquired for social housing through compulsory purchase orders under the Housing Act 1966.
Since 2019, the council has sold 19 of the compulsory acquired properties on the open market with a further 57 for sale or at sale agreed stage. The majority of these are residential properties needing varying degrees of renovation and are now being brought back into use by new owners. The Croí Cónaithe towns fund vacant property refurbishment grant has been a particularly welcome development in this regard and is helping drive homeowner interest in purchasing vacant and derelict properties.
While the majority of derelict sites are made available for sale on the open market, some are retained by the council for its own use, including for social housing, community-tourism use and a rural regeneration development fund, RRDF, funded pilot programme for refurbishing derelict houses before sale onto the open market.
The council applies a levy to all property on its derelict sites register and has collected €270,000 since 2018. There are nine properties on the vacant sites register and the council has collected €300,000 from a total of €1.766 million owed. All outstanding levies are actively pursued by the debt management unit of the council. The vacant homes officer works closely with the housing department directing owners of vacant and derelict properties to the repair and lease scheme and buy and renew scheme. Since 2017, Limerick City and County Council has delivered 30 units and 100 units, respectively, under this scheme.
To conclude, while we face a range of challenges, considerable work is under way by Limerick City and County Council and our partners - the Department, the AHB sector, the private sector and the LDA - to achieve the targets and to exceed upon these. I thank the committee. We welcome any questions members may have.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I invite Mr. Walsh to make his opening statement.
Mr. Michael Walsh:
I thank the committee for the invitation to attend the meeting. We have exceeded our targets in Waterford in terms of social housing over the past few years with 664 units across the different delivery mechanisms. We are broadly comfortable that we have a pipeline that will enable us to exceed targets in the next three or four years. We will have some land purchase issues and other issues after that but we are broadly comfortable that we will exceed the targets. Like Limerick, the housing delivery action plan is spread across city and county. Generally speaking, we are satisfied with the pipeline.
We are placing particular emphasis on affordable housing. Three schemes are on offer - advertised and otherwise.
There are about 179 houses in that context that are either being built or contracted with a view to delivery under the affordable housing schemes. We have only entered that process. We had expressions of interest a number of months ago. We are now entering the formal application process, so we are learning significantly as we go. We are one of the first local authorities, along with Cork, in this space, if we leave aside the Dublin authorities. There is learning in it, to be honest, and we are right in that space currently. We expect houses to come on stream in the next couple of months or early in the new year. We are motivated about this in the context of the broader cohort of people who are caught between those able to afford houses and those who are eligible for social housing. We are very active in that area and very animated about it. We want to ensure we make it work.
Beyond that, Mr. Grimes has been before the committee previously discussing vacancy and regeneration generally. We are in a reasonably good position. If we take the GeoDirectory figures and others, we have some of the lowest vacancy and dereliction rates in the country. Vacancy is down by 2.8% and dereliction by 1.4%. In a mature housing market, those figures are getting to the lower edges of the issue, with respect to vacancy in any case. It does not mean there is not more to be done. We are not in any sense resting on our laurels and continue to be active in the repair and lease schemes. After much effort in the initial stages, we have found that this has worked pretty well for us. As Dr. Daly outlined with regard to dereliction and CPO procedures, we need to ramp those up a little. We are very interested in the success Limerick City and County Council has achieved with CPO and dereliction. We are looking seriously at that with a view to ramping it up even further.
I do not have much to add. That is the bigger picture in many respects. There is not a local authority in the country that would tell the committee it is not under pressure in the grand scheme of things. We are hitting the targets and trying to exceed them in many areas but we are equally conscious of the pressures, especially in the urban areas. We have all had significant growth. In our case, population growth in the city in the most recent census period was 12.7%. That is imposing pressure in the form of demand and otherwise. As I said, there is not a local authority that would tell the committee it is not under pressure with delivery. Broadly, however, the resources are in place to ensure there is a good pipeline. In that regard, we have certainly been helped by the Department over the past couple of years. We are confident we can meet the targets in the budgetary envelopes. We are not in the worst place. That is how I would describe the position but that does not in any way diminish the current pressures on the social housing list and the other pressures in housing.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I thank Mr. Walsh. The Fianna Fáil slot is first but its members appear to be in the Dáil and Seanad as Senator Fitzpatrick appears to be away from desk. I will move to the Sinn Féin slot, which Deputy Quinlivan is taking.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chair. I welcome especially the officials from Limerick City and County Council. I know most of them very well.
Some of my questions are directed to Dr. Daly but it does not really matter who answers. Under the heading of social housing delivery between 2018 and 2021, the council's submission refers to 3,256 social housing supports being delivered. I note 66% of them were either RAS or HAP tenancies. Under the heading of projected social housing delivery, a target of providing 2,693 homes by 2026 is given. The council states this is a build target only. Where are we going to build those houses? What lands do we have to build them on? I was not aware we had enough land to build on. Dr. Daly mentioned the LDA on which I have a specific question. I do not expect the officials from Limerick to know where every single house is going to be built but I have a concern about where the land for 2,693 homes is to be found. I assume this refers to the whole of County Limerick.
Dr. Pat Daly:
The target is over a six-year programme. We have about 18 ha zoned within the current development plan and I think there are approximately 1,400 ha zoned beyond that, between public and private. We are working hard with developers on both the public and private programmes to make it happen. We are comfortably within the cycle of our housing programme, with an average of about 550 houses delivered per year. We are comfortable we can achieve the target. Obviously, there is a pressure point with some of the landholdings in Limerick. We need more land and we are identifying land and talking to the Department about it. However, we have come through the development plan process which identified where land is zoned and where it is unencumbered such that we can get into it straight away. We are looking at the private parcels that are becoming available. We have people working closely with the market to look at the landholdings to make delivery much easier and more streamlined.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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On the LDA, how confident is Dr. Daly that the agency will deliver some houses by 2026? He will be aware of a report in The Irish Timesin June indicating that the earliest the LDA will be in the Colbert Quarter will be in 2028. That is outside the council's plan. If the figures for the 2,693 homes include the LDA, can we assume they will not be delivered?
Dr. Pat Daly:
We have a very good working relationship with the LDA and the agency is progressing to opening an office on-site in Limerick, adjacent to the Colbert Station area. We are working very closely with the agency. I think it will be done on a phased basis with a ramping-up. It may be tight but those are not included in our current target for the roll-out.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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They are not in the target.
Dr. Pat Daly:
Not at the moment. It would be great to make that target but to be fair and avoid creating expectations, we hope they might come in just a little outside that. I am comfortable the LDA is making good, substantial progress on the ground. It is working closely with us and our development arm, the Limerick 2030 company, so I am confident we will be able to fast-track the start-up and then the phasing of the master plan to get on-site very quickly.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The article to which I referred was published in June. I have not seen any public denial from the LDA of the claims about 2028 being the earliest start date. It is not a surprise as I was aware of it. I have met the agency a couple of times but if we are relying on it for anything, it will be a really long time.
Dr. Daly also mentioned a judicial review. Is that ongoing or finished?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I will not comment as the case is ongoing. Is it the one on Condell Road?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Are the issues there sorted and, if not, do we have a timeframe for that? Does Ms Curley know?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Do the officials know when the Clondell Road one will be finished?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that. It is no problem.
Returning to the land issue, I have a concern we will not deliver the numbers we need in the time envisaged. I ask Dr. Daly to clarify what he said about how many hectares we have in the city.
Ms Caroline Curley:
The number already earmarked for social housing is 17 ha across the city and county. We estimate that will give us 410 units. We recognise we have a shortage there but we are in negotiations and hope to make use of the private sector more with turnkey developments. Many of the developments, especially in the city, will be turnkeys because the land is already owned privately. If there is a downturn and that land becomes available, we will then go in to take it.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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On housing delivery, in a report to the metropolitan meeting in September or thereabouts the target was 2,138 units. Are the officials confident they will meet that target?
Ms Caroline Curley:
Again, it is a five-year programme and we believe there is enough there, although we need more.
We are still just finishing year one and there are four more years. It is an ongoing discussion between the various schemes. The developers are interested in talking affordable housing. As a council, we have taken a policy stance that it is affordable with social, so we are looking for the tenure mix. We are hopeful we will be able to deliver the targets.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I have a final question on the numbers on housing waiting lists in Limerick. In 2020, there were 5,596 and in 2021, it was down to 2,802. How has that drop come about?
Ms Caroline Curley:
I would say the Deputy is mixing up the gross figure and the net figure. The gross figure is for people who are on a waiting list plus the people who are in RAS or HAP accommodation. Again, these figures can vary depending on the day. The gross figure I have is 5,863 and the net is 2,238, which is the people who are not in accommodation and who are on the waiting list. I presume that explains the difference in the Deputy’s figures.
Dr. Pat Daly:
Limerick is unusual in that it probably has not had a strong speculative housing market like other areas, and it has very much been built to order and is generally scheme-based. That is changing and there has been a lot more interest in Limerick because of the economic progress the city has made, the job creation and the fact of Limerick becoming a little more central in attractiveness. That is changing and we are getting quite a lot of input from developers to expand schemes or take on schemes that we would not have had before.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Dr. Daly mentioned the company involved in the plan.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Is the council considering the Cleeves site as a potential site?
Dr. Pat Daly:
Yes, Cleeves, which is a ten-acre site on the river, is one of the main city sites. That will be coming as a mixed-use scheme, so it will have residential with apartments, which will give us some of the heavy density that we would need, but it will also have offices. It will be a well-treated riverside scheme, one of the top schemes in the city moving forward.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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That is very welcome.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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Thank you. We move to the Fianna Fáil slot. I call Senator Fitzpatrick.
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for attending the committee and for the work they and their local authorities do. I have a couple of specific questions. I commend the two councils on the housing action plans they have put before us and the work they have already done to deliver. I note they have considerable targets for affordable and social housing, which is very welcome. How long does it typically take a local authority to bring that from concept to handing keys to either tenants or purchasers of affordable homes? What impact do appeals, objections or judicial reviews have on that timeline? How much is affordable and what is an affordable price in Limerick and Waterford?
Can the councils indicate whether their social housing lists operate on a time-on-list basis and if a person's position on the list is based on when they applied? Are the councils availing of the tenant in situscheme and the capacity for local authorities to purchase rental properties where a private rental tenant on the social housing list is at risk of homelessness and has received a notice to quit? Are councils availing of the tenant in situapproval from the Department? Those are my initial questions. Perhaps we could start with Limerick and then go to Waterford.
Ms Caroline Curley:
It is very hard to say how long it takes but what is often said is a four-year period. It depends on the concept and what happens before the project gets to the very end. This would apply to social housing. Affordable homes are a relatively new concept and we are now moving that on. On the affordable price, we have a difficulty-----
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Excuse me. I accept the point about four years for social housing and I accept that affordable housing was only introduced in the last year. If there are objections or a judicial review, what additional time does that add to the development process?
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Is it months or years?
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. That is an adequate answer.
Ms Caroline Curley:
With regard to the affordable price, the issue with the notion of affordability is to do with the percentage below the market value at which one can deliver a house. The difficulty we have in Limerick is that our market values are quite low and our build costs are high, so it is hard to come in below 15% for purchase and 25% for cost rental. I do not really have a price that I can give to the Senator. As my colleagues have worked a lot of examples, they may be able to give the Senator a better idea.
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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The council can come back to me.
Ms Caroline Curley:
As regards the social housing list, it is not that a person spends time on the list and then gets a house. There is an allocation policy and there is also community sustainment and the need to have a mix in there. A number of factors are taken into account and it is not always the people who are longest on the list; it depends on the actual need and what has already gone in. As I said, we try to have a mix of people.
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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It would be great if the council could send that information on.
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat. I will move on to Waterford.
Mr. Ivan Grimes:
I will take the questions in order. I agree with Ms Curley. I was thinking slightly optimistically at three years but three to four years sounds about right in terms of the timeline from conception to actual delivery. The Part 8 process has worked fairly smoothly for us in Waterford and there have not been any major issues. In the event of judicial review, we would certainly be talking about years.
With regard to an affordable price, in Waterford it is more a question of the income at which people can afford an affordable house. We are pitching that at somewhere around early €50,000-plus of gross household income up to €75,000 or €76,000. That is the way we are looking at the application process for those three schemes in Waterford, to which Mr. Walsh referred. We are looking at the income level rather than the price per sebecause the price the purchaser pays will depend on the level of the mortgage he or she can get plus the subsidy that comes from the affordable housing fund.
With regard to the housing list, time is obviously a key determinant but there are other factors that are taken into account, such as transfers, overcrowding and so on.
The issue of buying private rented properties where tenants are in HAP or RAS is one we are keeping under active consideration on a case-by-case basis. I am very conscious that there has been a bit of an exodus of landlords from both RAS and HAP and if we were to consider buying all of them, I do not think we would have sufficient resources from the capital programme.
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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I get that. What are Waterford’s homeless numbers like and how many are either identifying as homeless or in emergency accommodation?
Mr. Ivan Grimes:
Emergency accommodation currently has about 60 individuals and just under 20 families are in emergency accommodation. They are not in hostels. We have a concept of own front door for family emergency accommodation in Waterford and, by and large, families will be housed in houses with their own front doors rather than in typical emergency accommodation.
Mary Fitzpatrick (Fianna Fail)
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Is the council finding that the subvention from the Department to achieve affordability is sufficient? Both councils mentioned the challenge between the cost of construction versus the income levels. Do they have a sufficient subsidy to be able to make that work?
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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We move to the Fine Gael slot. I call Senator Cummins.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I thank both local authorities for being with us this afternoon from Limerick and Waterford. They are two very proactive local authorities in their space and they are leaders in different areas. The benefit of these committee hearings is that we can tease out what is working well and where, and what improvements we can bring to local authorities in other areas to ensure, if not that we are reinventing the wheel, that we take best practice and apply it across the country.
Waterford is the leader in respect of the repair and leasing scheme; Limerick is the leader in respect of CPOs and up there in respect of the buy and renew scheme. Perhaps we could start with those schemes. How has the repair and leasing scheme worked so well in Waterford in delivering over 150 units? How has Limerick managed to CPO over 100 units over the past three years where other local authorities have failed to CPO any? If the witnesses could start with those two questions, we would be very interested to hear their responses.
Mr. Gordon Daly:
Our programme of dealing with dereliction and, by extension, CPOs is part of a wider, overall strategy to improve our city and our towns and villages as places in which to live, work, invest and so on.
When we started this we were a relatively new local authority. We had been merged in 2014 and we had not done any CPOs in three or four years, so we started off small. We built expertise in and knowledge of this and started off with one or two projects. We figured out the process and have gradually built up that expertise and knowledge over time because we have put the resources into this area and prioritised it. We have seen the wider benefits it can bring, not just in dealing with dereliction in itself but also by bringing on housing supply and supporting the work of communities. Tidy Towns groups can get very frustrated if they see dereliction in their towns and villages. Small enterprises and so on can be created out of such buildings. We have done what we have done by building up our expertise and knowledge over the past few years and putting resources into this.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Some local authorities say that the process is too complex and that there is a significant financial risk. I appreciate that there is. That is why the Government is looking at putting in place an underwriting scheme, essentially. How has Limerick City and County Council overcome those issues over and above other local authorities? Is it that it has just gone out there and taken the risk others are not willing to take? I ask the witnesses not to hold back. We are here to learn.
Mr. Gordon Daly:
We have put not only staff resources but also financial resources into this. Other local authorities are correct in pointing out that it is not free to CPO a property. The person who can prove ownership can claim compensation at market value. Often there can be a gap between the point at which the property may be sold or moved on to another use and the claim for compensation coming in. We need and have put in place a fund of €1 million to start this process. Then they allowed us the financial window or envelope in which to pay out compensation ahead of the properties actually being-----.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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That fund is key to unlocking other local authorities to do as Limerick City and County Council has done.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Grimes wish to comment?
Mr. Ivan Grimes:
As the witnesses from Limerick City and County Council have said, it is about committing a resource to the project, which was what we did with the repair and leasing scheme. We came up with the idea originally so we were anxious to make it work. One of the things we realised was that €40,000 was the maximum loan available initially and that that would not really work with smaller standard houses that might be in need of repairs. If you converted larger properties into two, three or four units, you could bring in four times the level of funding. Based on our experience, the Department agreed to increase the maximum loan amount to €60,000. That has enabled us to be even more ambitious.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Would Waterford City and County Council support the call from some of the other local authorities, such as those in Dublin and Cork, for that to be increased further in light of increased inflation-----
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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It is important to say that it is recouped fully.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Perfect.
If I may move on to Waterford in respect of affordable housing. It is very significant that the first schemes are advertised at the moment, with 117 units open for application. There are advantages and disadvantages to being first up in a process. I wish to tease out some of the issues the local authorities have encountered heretofore and how they have been overcome. Then, specifically, there are the ongoing challenges in delivering schemes outside of Waterford city, in areas such as Dungarvan and Tramore, significant population growth centres, and particularly in coastal communities. That is a challenge right around the coast of our country, where there are significant cost pressures. I refer to a comparable product on which to be able to base a discount in those areas. Perhaps the witnesses could respond to those comments in the time I have left.
Mr. Michael Walsh:
If you do not mind, Chair, I will comment first. In some respects it was Mr. Daly's comment earlier that reminded me of this. What one will find in respect of Limerick City and County Council's CPOs and our repair and leasing scheme is that, over time, we have built up a level of competency. That is not an instant fix such that you just put resources into it and everything flows from there. There is a whole host of judgments at individual level, particularly with the likes of repair and leasing and CPO, that if you get wrong will end up costing you on the other side of the fence, as I describe it, whether in legal cases or otherwise. That whole issue of building up competency is critical. That is true equally on the affordable side of things. We are at that point now. We have people working on this for six or eight months. We are in the hard yards of it and we are trying to build that competency in many respects. I would see that as a rolling programme in that once you build it you could keep going and will orientate it appropriately.
As for the fixing, I will leave Mr. Grimes to comment on the specifics, but one of the issues we have at the moment is that we are selling a process. We do not have the product to sell. In the ordinary sense the builder sells far more than just the building or a product. The builder sells a community: "Come here to live. Here is the quality of life, the lifestyle and all the other things." In a sense we are at that point in the transition we need to get to before we can really push the thing. We are pushing it in respect of the processes of taking applications and engaging with every single individual. We started out with 600 expressions of interest. We are now down to a couple of hundred that will possibly pursue this and we are trying to work with them and close that out, but we are learning as we go. I can absolutely assure the Senator that this is very new to us and we are just trying to take the experience. Maybe Mr. Grimes wishes to add to that.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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He will get another opportunity to contribute.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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We are just out of time on that slot but we can come back to the issue again because it is an important item in the discussion.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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I welcome the council executives from Limerick and Waterford and those who are joining us online.
Well done to the councils on the number of vacant properties that have been worked on and compulsorily purchased. My point of view is county versus city. I know that the council is Limerick City and County Council. Is the process taking longer in the county than within the city? Perhaps Mr. Daly would not mind responding.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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I was looking at one or two projects we had before. When I was on the council we dealt with ones in Ballingarry and various other areas where there had been no registered owner of the property for 50 or 60 years. We were trying to go back through the process, and people trying to build or buy homes were waiting for the CPO process to come together. I know the councils probably have some troublesome cases such as that, but it is good to see that dereliction is starting to turn the corner.
As for listed buildings, I will use Kilmallock, a 14th-century town, as an example. We are looking at trying to get over-shop units and other properties back into the market in order that we can house people. Seeing as we have only Tom Cassidy and Sarah McCutcheon on that side of it, is that a side we need to staff more to get listed properties turned over faster in order that we can get the iconic buildings separated and then the buildings we can turn back into housing back into the market faster?
Mr. Gordon Daly:
I do not think the staff resource is the issue. The Government is addressing it with the Croí Cónaithe grant. Owners are looking for a financial incentive rather than the advice of the council. We are not finding that advice is an issue but we are certainly finding that Croí Cónaithe helps.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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My next question is about houses that come back to the council. We want to get them refurbished and back onto the council market. When a house is handed back to the council, where is the bottleneck when trying to get it back to the market? Is the Department the problem, since the council has to go through it for funding to get those houses back onto the market, or is it the lack of contractors?
Dr. Pat Daly:
The lack of contractors is the bottleneck, as well as the physical damage to the property. This depends on the state of the property, what work contractors need to do, and what might be behind the wall that we did not expect. There might be a programme of works that then has to change because of an issue with the sewer line that has to be addressed. The issue is a mix of contracting and getting things done. The Department has been helpful in getting this processed.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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Council properties only.
Ms Caroline Curley:
Council houses coming through. We had a difficulty with regard to funding. There is a voids programme that is part-funded by the Department. Last year, the funding was more generous, at €11,000 per unit. A number of units had funding of €50,000. This year, they are all at €11,000 and the council was given 99 units to do. The reality for us is that even a straightforward unit can cost up to about €25,000. In some regards, that is because of the lack of a planned maintenance programme. If a house has been occupied for 20 or 30 years when we get it back, it needs work to be done on windows, doors, electrics and other parts. The money in our budgets is not-----
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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Sorry, Ms Curley. My time is restricted. Has the Department looked at the issue of inflation to make sure that councils have adequate funds to bring the houses back onto the market?
Ms Caroline Curley:
It is a combination of issues. The state of the house in the first place is one. If there is little work to be done on a house, we can get it back onto the market quickly. If it is seriously damaged, we have to decide whether we can repair that house or work on five other houses that can be brought back into use instead. It is a combination of issues. We would welcome more money from the Department but we are working with it on the voids programme and on where houses are in such a bad condition that they are almost derelict. The Department has helped us with that to date.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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My other question is about infrastructure in County Limerick. The council has built fantastic houses in Kilmallock. Houses are being built in Hospital, but it is at maximum capacity and has five units that could not be connected to the sewers. During the week, we were in Foynes to welcome the programme to develop Shannon Foynes Port between now and 2041. The biggest problem is with housing for those developing the infrastructure at Foynes. Money needs to be spent so that we can house the people who will carry out the projects and to future-proof this. Is infrastructure in County Limerick a significant problem? Every town I go to is at maximum capacity. We want to deliver housing to the counties, to get people into towns and villages to make them more sustainable, and then put a transport system in place. We can come up with proper figures for transport needs for each individual when extra people are in the town. Is infrastructure a significant issue? Croom, Adare and Kilmallock are okay, but beyond there, everything seems to be on the back foot. Dromcolliher has been waiting for 25 years for an update to its sewerage system. Is infrastructure in the county an obstacle to providing houses?
Ms Caroline Curley:
There is no doubt that there are some settlements in the county area where infrastructure is causing a problem. We have indicated under the Housing for All action plan that we will try to acquire existing premises, whether commercial or residential, which already have a connection so that we do not have to install a new connection. We still have much leeway in other areas. I know why the Deputy keeps asking about the county, but our biggest need and demand is in the metropolitan area, where we have sufficient infrastructure, so there is much for us to drive onwards.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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Not everybody wants to live in a metropolitan area. Culchies like me want to live where they grew up. It is our heritage and culture. Ms Curley knows from me being on the council that I am always going on about the county. It is where I represent and where I want to see infrastructure and funding provided. I am a proud culchie and have no problem in saying it. People like me from the counties would like to see more infrastructure so that we can rebuild our counties, which would then support the metropolitan areas.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I thank Deputy Duffy for allowing me to step into his slot. I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I hope the Limerick delegation will forgive me if I focus in a more parochial way on the Waterford representatives. Looking around the table, I imagine there will be plenty of time for Limerick questions too.
I acknowledge the amount of work that has been done by Mr. Walsh and Mr. Grimes on affordable housing schemes which are coming on stream. Some 179 homes have been repaired and leased. I acknowledge that Waterford is leading the way on that. It may be slightly tangential, but I think it is worth mentioning the work of the integrated homelessness service on Parnell Street. Mr. Grimes mentioned that in Waterford, we strive to provide own-door emergency accommodation for families. That is testament to some of the work.
I would like to raise a number of issues. I will start with the demand for one-bedroom properties. In the graphs that the witnesses presented, that is the area in which demand is seriously outstripping supply. Will the witnesses talk to me about the difficulties we face? If we are trying to provide one-bedroom accommodation to people, we should ideally be looking at apartment blocks. Is it possible to make the development of apartment accommodation stand up financially in Waterford? Is that one of our sticking points or obstacles?
Mr. Ivan Grimes:
In common with most local authorities, the greatest demand on the housing list is for one-bedroom accommodation in particular, as well as two-bedroom accommodation. Without harking back to the repair and lease scheme too often, it has been fruitful for us in delivering one- and two-bedroom accommodation. We have focused on smaller apartment developments rather than going hell for leather for multi-storey developments. We can make two- and three-storey developments work within the Department's ceilings. We have one scheme which is nearing completion in the city with a combination of one- and two-bedroom accommodation. We factored delivery of one- and two-bedroom accommodation into our capital programme and we have supplemented that with the repair and lease scheme.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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Very good.
Mr. Michael Walsh:
I have no doubt that there is an issue with the cost of construction of apartments, particularly where density is wanted, with buildings having four or five floors, or more. In Waterford, to give context, the construction cost for a two-bedroom apartment is approximately €400,000. The reality is that it is competing with a semi-detached house down the road which is €300,000. Croí Cónaithe and the other elements here will certainly assist, but whether the gap is closed fully is difficult to know. We will actively pursue Croí Cónaithe and the other measures that are being put in place by the Government. That essential issue still exists in our marketplace. That would be completely different in Dublin or some larger cities, but it is the simple reality of the conflict in our marketplace.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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I know the preponderance of demand is in the city but there are real constraints along the coast, as the witnesses identified in their opening statement. Tramore and Dungarvan are the bigger population centres. I see there are only plans for nine social homes to be delivered for Dunmore East in the council's future programme master summary. It is similar for Ardmore. Are we confident that we will be able to meet demand? I know there are constraints with land ownership in Tramore.
There is significant demand for social housing within those towns.
Mr. Ivan Grimes:
The delivery plan was prepared based on the summary of social housing assessments, which indicated what the demand was in those settlements. That is why we have structured the plan in this way. Land is a constraint in certain areas. Mr. Walsh made the point in his opening statement that we will be looking to that in the near future to meet demand. From an affordability perspective, the affordability difficulty for people in County Waterford is probably slightly higher outside Waterford city in towns such as Tramore, Dunmore East and Dungarvan.
Marc Ó Cathasaigh (Waterford, Green Party)
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That is certainly true on the ground.
I also wish to discuss above-the-shop living in Waterford. It comes with a host of co-benefits, such as those relating to the decarbonisation programme under Project 2040 to bring people back into city centres, or even in terms of injecting retail life. Many towns and cities throughout the country die a death after 6 p.m. We should be bringing people back into city centres and encouraging city centre living. The repair and lease programme has concentrated on urban centres in particular. How far down the road are we, however? What challenges are in front of us in terms of unlocking in a serious way the above-the-shop accommodation that exists not just in cities, but also in towns and villages in the context of the type of urban renewal we want to see in those places as well? What are the challenges, constraints and difficulties in that regard?
Mr. Michael Walsh:
The core challenge is the economic recovery of those properties. We are the proud owners of a number of older buildings in Waterford city and elsewhere in the county. We have refurbished many of them. We have a significant amount of experience of refurbishment, not just in the lease and repair scenario but in terms of our own buildings. One of the big issues with the regeneration of older properties is that the costs are far greater than they are for new build. That is the reality. There is a dilemma there in terms of achieving that. Our overall strategy is to work from there, starting out with things like the lease and repair scheme, and to gradually build from there where possible. We also want to get new builds in the core city centre because until one builds the community back, one will not increase demand. It is a sort of virtuous circle if one can get it going on that basis. At the moment, we are trying to do anything we can purposefully do to get more people occupying the core centres of towns and cities, but we are working with the art of the possible. The biggest difficulty is probably in respect of over-the-shop accommodation, where there is poor access. One must comply with all the fire safety regulations and then there is joining them up to get scale in them and things like that. They are immensely complex and difficult projects.
Rebecca Moynihan (Labour)
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I will direct my questions at the representatives of both Limerick and Waterford councils if that is okay. I will indicate to whom I am addressing the question.
As regards Waterford, the massive increase in rents in the area in recent years has been striking. In places such as Dunmore East, which was just mentioned, rents have doubled. Many of the areas are already in an RPZ but has Waterford City and County Council engaged with landlords in those areas in respect of purchases under the tenant in situscheme if people are on HAP? Has it engaged to extend further rent pressure zones into other parts of Waterford?
As regards Limerick, I note that the 17 ha is on the low end of public housing that is being developed. In particular, the LDA is in the middle of developing the Guinness site in central Limerick. It is master planning for 2026, which seems very far out. We need to impress on the LDA the urgency of developing those sites in Limerick.
As regards the derelict and vacant sites register, has Limerick City and County Council identified large-scale sites in Limerick in respect of which it might issue compulsory purchase orders, CPOs? Such sites may be ones on the register or that have not had planning permissions commenced.
Both councils referred to the Croí Cónaithe scheme in the context of activating city and town centre areas. Are there large apartment development projects in Limerick or Waterford that will potentially avail of the Croí Cónaithe scheme? If so, how are those projects progressing?
Finally, I have asked each of the local authorities that have appeared before the committee about the tenant in situ scheme for 2022. It is a difficult thing to get one's head around as we do not know how many evictions are being served. They often come quite late to the local authority and the eviction ban is obviously going to impact that. What difficulties have the councils faced in the context of the tenant in situscheme? Has it been not fitting in with the policies? Is it that the properties are not appropriate to purchase? What are the reasons for that? Where can we cut through the red tape in the context of purchasing properties with a tenant in situ?
Mr. Ivan Grimes:
I previously mentioned that we will be taking the purchase of private rented tenancies on a case-by-case basis because of the sheer volume of the exodus from HAP and RAS. Our HAP place finder service has developed an excellent personal relationship with estate agents and landlords. For example, if a HAP tenant is allocated a social house by us under choice-based letting, we endeavour to keep that property available under HAP. We source an additional tenant. Building up that relationship with estate agents and landlords has worked well.
As regard RPZs, two of the electoral districts in the metropolitan area are designated as RPZs. As a local authority, we do not have a direct role or remit in terms of initiating the designation of RPZs but we have raised within the chamber and nationally with the Minister and his Department the fact that there are issues in this regard. I referred to Dungarvan and Tramore but there are also other coastal towns where it is not an issue of finding a property to rent because there are no such properties. There is a significant shortage of rental properties in those coastal towns. Short-term letting is having an impact in that regard. It is essential that those areas be designated as RPZs as quickly as possible.
Mr. Michael Walsh:
As regards apartments, the simple answer to the question on whether we have schemes immediately coming on stream is "No". The most recent changes in terms of Croí Cónaithe and cost rental have changed the game and we will be seeing more engagement at planning stage in respect of apartments. We have a couple of larger schemes, on the north quays and Michael Street, where we will be seeking to make apartments happen in the current context. Historically, the degree of subsidy relative to the gap I mentioned earlier was not of sufficient scale but I am happier now that we can actively engage with developers and otherwise in this space.
Ms Caroline Curley:
As regards the 17 ha, we hope to fit in 410 units there. With regard to the Guinness site, we had been moving ahead to develop that ourselves but when the Colbert Station plan came out, we put it with that because we figured it would make a better holistic job of the whole thing. Realistically, it is there. We are pushing the LDA on it but it will probably be close to 2026 before we see the outcome. We have preliminary plans showing how that can be done but it will involve the Guinness site plus the CIÉ lands.
There are a lot of complicating factors before we would be able to say exactly what year or when it will come to fruition. If it is not within the Housing for All period, it will be into the next one. We will work on it. We have signed a mutual agreement with the LDA to work together. I assure the Senator we will put the LDA under pressure to move the project forward as quickly as possible.
In regard to tenants in situin 2022, we are notified of quite a number of notices to quit. Some people manage to find other places. I understand there are currently 22 notices to quit where people are looking at homelessness and in 17 cases landlords have agreed to work with us to purchase the properties. The types of difficulties are the conditions of the properties and having the proper paperwork. Landlords may have issued a notice to advise tenants they are selling a property but do not have the paperwork in place to make sure it was done correctly.
We have found that if people are genuinely trying to sell, they are willing to work with us because they want to look after their tenants if they have been good tenants. I cannot say anything about getting this right or the need to change something. Rather, it is a case of working with each individual case as it comes in.
Steven Matthews (Wicklow, Green Party)
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I will ask the witnesses to come back to that issue. There will be time in the third round for Senator Moynihan if she wants to come back in.
Rebecca Moynihan (Labour)
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That is no problem.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the local authorities for coming before the committee and for all the work they are doing. In terms of vacancy and dereliction, I want to recognise the work of the local authorities. They are showing a high level of leadership and commitment. We can see that in Waterford, in terms of repair and lease in particular, and in Limerick, with the number of derelict sites registered and the use of CPO. It compares very favourably with many other local authorities. It is worth saying that, especially for me because I tend to criticise a lot. It is important to make positive statements.
In terms of the overall delivery of social, affordable and cost-rental homes and achieving more than they are at the moment, what are the biggest challenges local authorities are facing? What support do they need to get to achieve more social and affordable and cost-rental homes?
Mr. Pat Daly:
Having granularity in the housing plan has been helpful because our eyes are on the target. I understand we are resourced by the Department and line up our divisional supports around that. We are getting a lot of results similar to what has been mentioned in respect of Waterford on direct and guided dialogue with developers, homeowners and tenants. There are more supports coming through the Department. Funding is always a problem. Consideration may be given to examining some of the caps on some of the schemes, and I understand that is under consideration by the Department.
It is a blend of looking at levels, caps and executive support on the ground for some of the schemes in order to make them happen. The Deputy is hearing from both teams that success requires dedicated supports and teams to work through that. As Mr. Walsh said, they are building confidence and expertise. That is credible because we can take people through the system very quickly. I will ask Ms Curley to comment.
Ms Caroline Curley:
On the affordable side, we have additional land in Limerick in the regeneration area. Unfortunately, the market value of housing there is very low. If we want to produce affordable housing, we will have to seriously increase the subsidy to allow for that. That would change the face of regeneration areas. As I said, where we have serviced land, there is an issue with the current subsidies. I appreciate how lucky we are to be getting that, but if we could get a huge uplift in subsidies, we would be able to deliver an awful lot more houses and ensure a greater mix in those areas.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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What about Waterford?
Mr. Michael Walsh:
On the social housing side, there is a resource issue. We are probably maxing out the number of social housing units relative to the resources people have to make it happen. On affordable and cost-rental units, we are in the development phase. Affordable housing is relatively new to us. We have committed specific resources and will be able to run that up, on balance. I do not think we need more. Perhaps in due course there will be an increase. We have to stay with inflation at the minimum in terms of the level of subsidy available. We are only now testing the market in that space in terms of what the demand will be. We need to learn more about that before I can say confidently what we should be doing.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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On social housing, the council is meeting its targets and hopes to exceed them. If it was being asked to do more than that, it would need more staff resources.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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On land, it was said that within three to four years there would need to be more land purchases. Can Mr. Walsh expand on that?
Mr. Michael Walsh:
In general terms, we have some land, but it is in areas where there is probably an over presence of social housing generally. We will enter the marketplace. We will look to get 20 acres, in old money, per annum. It would not be beyond our wit to achieve land purchase. If we really wanted to ramp it up, the reality is we will have to ramp up land availability or depend totally on turnkey development. We will try to have a bit of both so we are not entirely dependent on either stream.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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The council would be able to acquire more land with its own resources at the moment, but if that was to be ramped up it would need more.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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In terms of the 17 ha and 400 units in Limerick, it is working out at about 23 or 24 homes per hectare. Is that normal in terms of social housing delivery?
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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The 17 ha remain within the metropolitan area.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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There was a question on judicial reviews and the delay they can cause for the delivery of social, affordable and cost-rental housing. In Limerick and Waterford, are any social, affordable or cost-rental homes schemes being delayed by judicial review in recent times?
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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About how many homes are involved?
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I am not asking the witnesses to comment on that. In a general sense, what can be done to reduce some of the conflict or ensure something does not get to the point of a judicial review? Do they have any thoughts on that?
Dr. Pat Daly:
There was good consultation done in putting the planning together. It came out of nowhere the end. We are working through that. It goes back to having dedicated resources and dialogue. Consultation on large-scale projects is necessary. Some of the fear factor around large-scale developments and the mix has to be addressed. We need to double down on the consultation phase. These things need more time and resources. Part of that was done through Covid. Things were done very well in terms of technology, but we have to eyeball people on that side of things.
Cian O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the representatives from Limerick and Waterford. I know them all. They are very welcome and I am delighted they are here to talk about the positive developments in both local authorities. On the right-sizing project in Limerick, the scheme outside Mungret Gate was successful. Are there many more such projects coming on stream? I know of people who would definitely avail of the project if more was to come.
Ms Caroline Curley:
We did a pilot in Mungret Gate that included houses as well as apartments. We are now looking at the lessons learned from that. We have two sites, Speaker's Corner and Thomondgate, one of which is going to Part 8 and another straight to An Bord Pleanála, where we have a mix of affordable, private downsizing and social housing. It is to be hoped they will also come on stream. They are future projects. We believe it is the right thing to do and is the right mix. That is why we hope to progress those sites - so far, so good. We have learned from private downsizing that, as a nation, we are still not into apartments. Some of it is to do with animals and people keeping their little dog or whatever in the house. People also want back gardens or a little front garden. A two-bedroom own-door house with a little back garden is preferable for them. It is about trying to get the mix right and making it attractive for people.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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On derelict sites that have been designated as being for CPO, how many of those are houses that will come back into use? Do the officials have an idea of that?
Mr. Gordon Daly:
We have figures for that. The majority of properties on the derelict sites register are residential. Of the 388 properties currently on the register, 281 are residential in nature, primarily houses, while the rest are made up of mixed-use properties, commercial properties and, in some cases, sites that are generally brownfield-type sites. On how that breaks down in terms of compulsory acquisitions, it follows the same trend. The majority of the 145 compulsory acquisitions we have completed, 110, are houses or residential properties. The rest are made up of mixed use, commercial and sites. The majority are residential.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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The regeneration project has been ongoing for quite a while. I know Mr. Delaney is on the line. There are so many brownfield sites within the old regeneration areas. Are there any plans to build on some of those? While a lot of houses were taken out, there were not many to replace them. The plan was that some would be replaced. Communities would like to find out if there are any plans.
Mr. Joe Delaney:
There was a target of 513 social units that were to be replaced. The social side, or replacement units for the units that were built, is largely completed or is under construction at present. The next phase we are now looking at is to move towards mixed-tenure developments on most schemes. We have two schemes with planning permission in the areas that we would like to put forward as mixed-tenure schemes. It comes back to the challenge around making up the difference between what people can afford and the cost of the scheme. That is something we are very much planning to move on. That is in our plans at present.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I am very aware from reports to do with Limerick City and County Council meetings that it recently repurposed a loan for refurbishment and retrofitting. Will the officials comment on that? On the long-term leasing scheme, are there many contracts the council has entered into or is looking at into the future?
Dr. Pat Daly:
I will ask Ms Curley to comment. I again compliment the members of Limerick City and County Council on their last meeting, when they repurposed the loan. This was the Troy Studios repayment that we were able to divert to housing. That will go towards delivery of a package of schemes under a lot. Ms Curley will take us through that.
Ms Caroline Curley:
In any given year, there is a turnover of houses and casual vacancies. There are probably approximately 120 in Limerick and while the council makes revenue budgetary provision for that, and we also avail of Government funding, for which we are very grateful, there was a shortfall for 2022. We tried to deliver on our voids programme but we had a number of long-term vacant properties that needed serious money spent on them, in addition to the energy retrofit programmes. I again acknowledge the fact that there is Government funding for this but when we do the energy retrofit programme, we also do planned maintenance in the house. The estimated cost of the various programmes for 2022 was more than €21 million; in fact, it was nearly €22 million. There was a funding deficit of €7.71 million. A loan was being repaid for Troy Studios and the council agreed to repurpose that loan and give it to the housing department to allow us to tackle the voids and long-term vacants, along with Departmental funding, in order that we could produce an extra 178 homes for people within the next 12 months. It will go into 2023. It is a good news story. We are very grateful to the council for making that decision.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I have one final question relating to the LDA. While no one from that body is present today, in negotiations and any conversation I have had with its members to date, they have said it will definitely be 2026 before we realistically see any of its first homes in Limerick. Have there been any negotiations or conversations with the LDA? Is there any hope of bringing that date of 2026 forward?
Dr. Pat Daly:
As I said, we have had a very good working relationship with the LDA in other areas and on other occasions. We have encouraged it to set up an office so that it is in town and is backed up by executive power on the ground. Once that happens, it will begin to unlock a lot of pace into the process. When the LDA is in the city and county, it will see that. We also have a development arm of our own, Limerick Twenty Thirty. The combination of the LDA and Limerick Twenty Thirty figuring out some innovative solutions to certain sites should unlock new potential and definitely more speed. We have talked with the LDA chief executive about making that happen faster. I am hopeful. It may not come into the programme for 2026 but it will not be far off.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the officials for being here. It is great to meet the management of different local authorities and to pick their brains. The first question I ask of local authorities, which is slightly different from everyone else, is when a person goes into rehab for three or six months or whatever period, do the councils keep them on the housing list? I have asked councils to make sure that people who are on their recovery journey are not taken off the list. Will the officials confirm that is their councils' policy?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is good to hear. On voids, the statistics on the back page of Limerick City and County Council's submission are very impressive. Excellent work is being done by the team involved in respect of derelictions and inspections. Great credit is due to everyone involved in the work on the CPOs for 388 properties. I would like to see every local authority come up with that. The one negative is the amount being levied. In 2021, €48,000 was collected from a levy of €480,000. Is that €480,000 the amount that was levied in 2021 or is that the outstanding balance for Limerick?
Mr. Gordon Daly:
I do not have the exact figures for each year to hand. While we have collected substantial levies in recent years, there are also substantial levies owing. In order to prioritise or progress that, we have put more resources into the collection side of it. We have aligned those resources with the wider debt management unit of Limerick City and County Council which, again, is slightly innovative. These are people who are used to collecting debt on behalf of the council.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is it fair to say the council is being much more assertive in respect of people who are not paying the levies?
Mr. Gordon Daly:
Certainly, in the past 12 months we have again ramped up our collection of levies. We are also applying interest on levies, which can be done under the Derelict Sites Act. We are now applying interest to the levies, which is allowed under legislation. Our main focus is to get properties back into reuse. Collection and imposition of levies is a useful part of the carrot and stick approach and a useful tool to have. We are finding that if people are not paying the levy they are not engaging, if they are not engaging the property is staying derelict, and if the property is staying derelict we are moving to compulsorily acquire it.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The number of properties Limerick City and County Council has compulsorily purchased has been excellent, to be fair.
According to the 1990 Act, all local authorities should be imposing the levy. I know the witnesses are trying to use a carrot and stick approach and I appreciate that they are having some success but there is no ambiguity in the legislation. The levy must be levied and collected. I know Waterford City and County Council has done great work with CPOs and buy and renew but what proportion of the levy is it collecting?
Mr. Michael Walsh:
The answer is very little. I do not fully agree with the Deputy's position in the context of the derelict sites register. Our experience with the register, and we would have pulled away from placing emphasis on that, was that it did not work effectively. The vast majority of direct derelict properties have complications and complexities and sometimes people do not have the capital resources attached to them. Our experience with the register was twofold. We found it placed an impediment on redevelopment of the sites because it places a further burden on the title of the property. Our experience in that environment was that it literally disincentivised people who were already in trouble in terms of managing these properties. It made matters worse. In most instances, they are people of straw or things are legally complicated as to who the debtor is, if the Deputy knows what I am saying.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do.
Mr. Michael Walsh:
The collection potential in this is nothing like the potential of our ordinary collection system. It can be chased as a civil debt in many respects or in respect of placing it as a burden on the title of the property but that has consequences. That is why we have placed our emphasis on lease and repair.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that but I want to get to the nub of this. This is legislation that was passed 32 years ago. I have a major problem with local authorities not doing their job when it comes to legislation. I understand Mr. Walsh's point that it is complicated. Cork City Council collected 9% of the levy in 2020. Due to pressure from me and other Deputies, councillors and activists, it collected 33% last year so I do not hold with the idea that it is complicated and hard. If Revenue was collecting it, it would get the money. The question here is whether collection of the derelict sites levy should be given to Revenue. I believe it should because I have not seen any local authority get the levies it should have received. Maybe local authorities should never have been given this responsibility. This legislation has been in place for 32 years, yet people say 32 years later that it is not the way to go. I am not sure how many Governments have been in place since it was passed. Local authorities meet with Ministers. This should have been fixed. It is not the fault of the local authorities.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Are there derelict sites in Waterford for which the levy is not being paid?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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We will agree to disagree because the legislation states that the derelict sites levy should be collected. It is not just Waterford. As far I can see, every local authority is picking and choosing. If somebody gets a parking fine in Waterford, he or she has to pay it. Is that not right?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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However, people do not have to pay the derelict sites levy. I thank Mr. Walsh for his honesty. I appreciate it.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Walsh can respond if he wishes.
Mr. Michael Walsh:
All I am saying is that it is a policy decision. There is a degree of difficulty and cost involved in putting properties on the derelict sites register. Our experience working hard at it over a period of time, particularly in the early years of the registration, is that we got no yield on income relative to that and we found that serving notices under the Derelict Sites Act to improve properties and many of the other instruments worked far better. I would still say to the Deputy that the proof of the pudding is in the eating in terms of the overall performance.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I might take up that line of questioning. The question Deputy Gould rightly put was whether the discretion that is being applied was within the scope of the Act. Many Members of the House believe there is no discretion and it is just a matter of applying it. Would that be a fair assessment?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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There is an obligation under the legislation as passed by the Oireachtas. We are going to impose other levies such as the zoned land tax from January and there will be no discretion in how they are applied.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I take on board many of the points made by Mr. Walsh. I have seen derelict sites in my own area and it is very frustrating when there is a legislation in place that many people believe would help tackle dereliction.
Mr. Michael Walsh:
It is important to recognise that an awful lot of these have traumas associated with them. An awful lot of them are massively complex. In the vast majority of instances, it is not carelessness that causes the issue. There are more fundamental issues. Equally, it is not totally property economics that is causing it. There can be legal issues, issues regarding intestacy, disputes over ownership, title issues-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Capacity issues.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Both the local authorities have made a very fair point. Both also have a figure for affordable housing. Could they separate that out into affordable rental and affordable purchase?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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What about Limerick?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Out of those 1,200 unit, how many are affordable rental and how many are affordable purchase?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I will deal with affordable purchase first. Is affordable purchase being delivered on local authority sites? Is the local authority the developer and the body that will sell them or is that being done in partnership with a developer?
Ms Caroline Curley:
We in Limerick are a bit further behind Waterford. We have one project that is on our own land. It involves nine units and will be an apartment block. It is going through the process and we hope that when we have brought it to Part 8, we will look for a developer to develop it for us. We sought expressions of interest for other projects for rental to a consortium with Clúid and Whitebox. We hope to be able to pass on local authority land to the consortium to develop those.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Is the subsidy available to the local authority from the Department for affordable purchase €50,000?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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It depends on the density.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Nine units would appear to be an appallingly low number.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The Government is providing €100,000 off the price of construction for homes that could be sold at that price.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Is Ms Curley saying that homes in Limerick are already affordable?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Of course. That is why I hope the local authority would construct and build homes.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I imagine there are many people in Limerick looking on and hoping to purchase a home. They see vacant sites owned by the local authority and the Government providing between €50,000 and €100,000 off the price of construction and they wonder why they cannot buy a home from the local authority.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The question is why the council is not providing it for the affordable purchase scheme.
Ms Caroline Curley:
We had to decide which land was going to be used where. We have made that decision. There are three plots in total of which two are pretty much advanced. The first is at Part 8 and the second is waiting to go to An Bord Pleanála because it is a special area of conservation. The third is tied up with economic-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I will refer to the previous question asked about land acquisition. Are you saying the local authority ran out of land to build affordable purchase homes?
Dr. Pat Daly:
With regard to regeneration, I think we will be in a position to bring more affordable packages on because the areas are beginning to become very market friendly. We have waiting lists in some of the areas which are beginning to become very market friendly. We have waiting lists in some of the areas. Those lands are owned by us. We must manage social mixing.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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What is the split between affordable purchase and affordable rental homes from Waterford's perspective?
Mr. Ivan Grimes:
As Mr. Walsh alluded to in his previous contribution, we do not have cost rental at present. We are concentrating on affordable purchase. The three schemes in Waterford that are currently advertised are on developer sites. We have agreed with the developer and the Land Development Agency, LDA, that the local authority will manage the application process to avoid confusion for the public. A couple of our own sites are earmarked for affordable purchase and will probably be advanced next year. We are looking throughout the city and county to identify potential further affordable schemes both on our own land and with developers.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I have run out of time. I call Deputy Leddin.
Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I am delighted you have talked to Limerick in your slot. It is a nice segue for me to talk about Limerick as well. It kind of feels as though we are back in the council chamber in Merchant's Quay. I have to say it is not a bad feeling. It is good to see the representatives from Limerick City and County Council here-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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You will find that in previous meetings, a number of Deputies have slipped in to calling the officials "manager".
Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I feel like calling them Caroline, Gordon and Pat. Forgive me if I slip. Limerick and Waterford are my favourite Munster cities. Thus, the local authority representatives are very welcome here today. I congratulate both local authorities on the work they are doing. I am more familiar with Limerick. Other members have alluded to the great work on the acquisition of derelict and vacant properties. Limerick is pushing ahead of the other local authorities in the country and it should be commended on that.
I have raised with a number of the representatives before Limerick's middle- to longer-term ambition under Ireland 2040. There is an objective to bring our population up by 50% or 60%. We have exciting fresh plans with regard to the rail stuff. We mentioned Moyross for which a new train station has been announced. It changes the dynamic of how we think about Moyross. Incredibly good work has been done in the past 15 to 20 years in Moyross which is a wonderful community. It is certainly not without its challenges but I think the council has worked very well with the community to get it to a certain point. The Government is very happy to deliver this critical infrastructure. It changes the dynamic of how we develop places such as Moyross.
With regard to further ambition, Limerick is unique in the Irish context in that we have four rail lines coming in and out of it. Waterford does not have that. The rail line does not cross the River Suir but I believe it used to. The context is different in Waterford, Galway and Cork. Limerick has under-utilised infrastructure. It seems the way forward for Limerick is to build on that infrastructure. If we were trying to build or plan it now we would just say "forget about it" because it would cost billions of euro. However, the infrastructure is there and in the spirit of compact growth and developing more dense and livable cities, it makes considerable sense. As well as Moyross, there is Corbally, Parkway, Ballysimon, Lisnagry, Raheen, Mungret and, pushing out to my Limerick colleague's territory, there is Patrickswell, Adare, Askeaton and Foynes.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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East Limerick.
Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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I will not forget east Limerick. We will bring the trains to east Limerick eventually-----
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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Adare.
Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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------but we have good infrastructure in west Limerick which we will open up again.
I wish to speak about the potential and what the local authority can do to embrace the dormant infrastructure. Incredibly good work has been done. I have worked with my colleagues, Mr. Seán Hartigan and Ms Saša Novak, in the process of putting together the city and county development plan. All councillors in the local authority worked hard and the plan is a testament to both the political and staff sides of Limerick City and County Council. It is a very good plan but there is an argument that it does not look at the infrastructure. Perhaps the Government could be accused of moving the goalposts after all the really good work was done. However, we need to start looking at that infrastructure and the densities and land that are available and think about how we will develop them.
Dr. Pat Daly:
We would not argue with anything the Deputy said. That infrastructure is the future. It is hot-wired into the development plan. It is the first time that Limerick has had a development plan to cater for the city and county. It took a bit of debate from all stakeholders but the council in particular. Trade-offs were made but the council did not trade on any of the core principals of transport-led development and integrated living. Colbert Station, to use an airport analogy, is the hub. The station is one of the key sites for the LDA. The rail lines the Deputy mentioned connect through all the key areas in both the city and county. They have a hub-spoke effect. They can come in and out of the city and through it. I am very conscious of that. It will probably take two development plans to work through but the guiding vision of the current plan is to do so.
It is about giving people choices as we wait for public infrastructure to kick through. How do we get people in and out of town? Unashamedly, people in Limerick still like to drive in and out of town. There is kind of a town mentality but that will change in time as services come to pass and rail options become available. It will also change with the great support Government is giving on mobility measures, adaptive travel and greenways. It is about how one brings it together. We have set a new division up dedicated to place-making. How do we make it happen? How do we better connect what we have? Limerick has a grid system as a Georgian city which can be connected to the county areas by rail line.
It is not a million miles away. We have already started having progressive discussions with Iarnród Éireann which is doing its feasibility and planning. I think we will see it sooner rather than later. Part of the challenge might be in the Ryder Cup coming in 2027. Can we get some of those key rail lines in place? It would be doable if there were a fair window. I think it will happen.
Brian Leddin (Limerick City, Green Party)
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We should be looking at a 2027 timeframe. The LDA plan 2026 is the target. In the context of the Ryder Cup coming to Limerick, we should probably talk about connecting Shannon Airport to the network. Let us start thinking that way. The airport is in County Clare but I would love if Limerick said to County Clare that connecting the airport was very important and that it was about the region working together rather than just Limerick City and County Council. It is doable. The thinking around transport, development and densities is changing. I am delighted to hear what Dr. Daly has said.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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We have two people sitting above, Mr. Daly and Ms Curley, who would not mind anything being connected from Clare to Limerick. Deputy Leddin said the infrastructure is probably not even in east Limerick at present. I welcome connectivity from areas including Adare and Newcastle West.
I welcome Deputy Leddin. I met him in Foynes during the week. There is no infrastructure for Foynes to develop. There was a compulsory purchase order of land for a sewerage system. The witnesses referred to Glin. There is no sewerage system in Foynes or Askeaton. We want to build but we have no infrastructure. What is in place is beyond inadequate and is essentially non-existent. From the point of view of east Limerick, the train passes through Kilmallock and does not stop. There was a train station there and the building is still in place. The mart is adjacent to it. Can the witnesses imagine if places such as Kilmallock had infrastructure? What would it do for the training fire station we looked at in Kilmallock, which had available land if the proper infrastructure existed? What would that have done for our fire service training? There are companies such as Keltic Engineering.
This is not just an issue for Kilmallock. One can go further - people from Kilfinane, Hospital and Bruff could use that connectivity to get into town. The rail line exists and all it needs is a stop so that people can board and go. A second line could be put in alongside it so that commercial businesses in Kilmallock could use the freight train to transport their goods to the port. Why could it not be used? The rail line is there. I spoke to Deputy Leddin about this during the week. He said he will cycle out to meet me there. He wants me to cycle too but I might use an engine.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy could use an e-bike. The regulations for that are not in yet.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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East Limerick seems to be forgotten with regard to the network. We have a rail line. We just need a stop. The train stops in Charleville. People in County Limerick have to go to Charleville to get the train. They could get it in Kilmallock. Kilmallock is a building town which could help with all types of infrastructure and commercial entities in Kilmallock. The connectivity exists.
Ms Curley referred to the inflation in material prices a while ago. We are talking about the tax coming in on land. Many developers or landowners with zoned land are afraid to build because of the cost incurred with the fluctuation in the price of materials and labour costs and the shortage of labour. They are afraid to build because they have had fixed-price contracts in the last year or two. Most housing contractors work with a 6% ratio. Some have 10%. Some larger contractors work with a 2% ratio in industrial and commercial building. Imagine what inflation in material costs would do to those businesses, which are massive employers. I am a building contractor but I do not do any work for the council. I work on private industrial and commercial buildings.
I understand the market and where developers are coming from. They are asking financial institutions for money to build; and then they are looking at inflation costs and asking if it is viable for them to build. As was mentioned earlier, a number of contractors went belly-up over recent years because of this. Projects that we wanted to see did not happen. Look at places such as Pallaskenry. How many houses have been held up in that project because of a company folding? That is why we are looking at affordable delivery. We could do something about it because most inflation in material costs is driven by fossil fuels, on which we have a 50% tax, which drives the inflation higher. Every contractor and person working in that sector has a 50% tax before they leave home. The Government could look at the tax regime. It is not only an issue for construction. It covers farming and everything else that feeds into it, such as small and medium enterprises. Fossil fuels are certainly used and the taxation system is causing an issue. Most materials that are produced, such as insulation, are based on fossil fuel costs. Transport network costs are based on fossil fuels. If the Government truly wanted to develop housing, whether in the metropolitan or rural areas, it could happen.
Do the witnesses find there are contractors that are not actually coming to the market? The Mungret site is planned for 2030. I understand there was encouragement for planning and infrastructure for it so that it was achievable for contractors to build 20 houses at a time. Do the witnesses find that not as many people come to the market who want to build?
Dr. Pat Daly:
Regarding the rail line, and going back to Deputy Leddin's point, we need to pick the winners and projects which can be done easily and quickly. We need to start orienting people and encouraging behavioural change. I know Iarnród Éireann is planning that.
The Department is helpful with inflation costs. It pulls them in every six to eight months to look at them to see if it can do an adjustment. I know we are having discussions with many developers and builders to address that cost because they are under pressure with the impact on the supply chain and from inflation.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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I have a quick question because my time is running short. It is for Mr. Daly or Ms Newell, who did not get in yet. A process is starting on derelict buildings. There is a fine for owners of derelict buildings as they are going through a planning process. Can something be done for people? Can that be taken off the planning fees afterwards? People are being fined for dereliction of buildings which are held up in the planning process. What can be done to show them that there is light at the end of the tunnel? They are trying to improve derelict buildings but they are caught in the planning sector.
Mr. Gordon Daly:
One could argue that they have come to the planning process because the levy is being imposed on them. Generally, if a building is derelict, it has not become derelict overnight. There is ample time for people to address issues before it gets to being on the register and before a levy begins to apply. Levies generally apply retrospectively.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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The cost of inflation stops this from happening, as we have heard from other councils. Historically, inflation costs are the cause because developers cannot get funding from the banking sector.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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If people manage to get planning permission, can something be done about the fines incurred while they have been waiting for planning permission?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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To clarify, there is a difference between the derelict sites levies and the zoned lands levies which Deputy O'Donoghue is talking about. I think we are talking about two different processes.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I think Deputy O'Donoghue is talking about applications coming forward and the new residential zones tax levy.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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I am also talking about derelict buildings in County Limerick that are going through a planning process. While they are waiting for planning permission, the owners are fined because the buildings are derelict. It is correct that the process on some of those buildings has started because of the dereliction fine, but on the other side, historically, people tried to get funding together and the banks did not see them as viable units to be returned to use.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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I thank Mr. Daly.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I thank the representatives from Limerick City and County Council and Waterford City and County Council for being here. The witnesses will appreciate that, since I am a Deputy from Limerick city, my questions will probably be more directed towards the officials from Limerick. I acknowledge the great work being done in Waterford. I know about the work the council has done, especially on the older buildings in the city.
The witnesses are well aware that my main concern is housing. I acknowledge the great work they have done and our interaction with all staff at council level. I want to put that on record. At every level, I find the staff involved in housing fantastic to work with, as do my own staff. I know I have raised the voids before. Ms Curley has raised the issue here. The funding that the council has got from the repayment of the loan for Troy Studios has allowed the council to leverage additional funding.
Is that 178 voids? Will Ms Curley flesh out roughly where they are located? Are they in both city and county? Will she go through the process? I know she is in the process of going out to tender. Will she give us a track because 178 units is a significant body of units? The infrastructure is already there because they were in existing housing stock the council owned. Will she give me some detail on where they are, the timescale and when the allocations are expected to happen? The word on the grapevine is that work is about to commence. Will she cover those points for me please?
Ms Caroline Curley:
It is always a snapshot in time. We get houses back every week. We went to the council with 99 units under voids which would also attract the €11,000 local money from the Department. We had a number of long-term vacant units that needed up to €180,000 to be spent on them. When they were put together and all the money that can be claimed from the Department was combined there was a shortfall of €7.7 million. The amount of the loan that was repurposed was €6.4 million but we had some other money saved from capital. The council agreed to do that.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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In essence how many voids is the total amount for?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That means that €6.4 million-----
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is that from the State?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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So €5 million is being put aside.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How much is the State providing in total? What will be the total cost of refurbishment? Does Ms Curley have that figure?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The State is providing roughly €13 million with €5 million coming from the council's own resources.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is that from the Troy Studios loan?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I commend Ms Curley on that.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am not asking for that.
Ms Caroline Curley:
They are spread across both. If you ask any of the local politicians, they are the ones we are focusing on. With regard to them what we have done is, we have gone out to tender for one batch of them and will hopefully be appointing a contractor very shortly. There are about 17 of them. One batch of 17 has a contractor on site. In regard to another batch for which we have just received formal approval from the Department on funding, we hope to have a contractor before the end of the year. It is really next year when we will see the biggest load of these coming on stream.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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When does Ms Curley anticipate that the full 178 units will be back in use?
Ms Caroline Curley:
It is hard to say because it depends on the procurement. Each time we must go out and get the contractors. My wish would be that we would have them done by the end of next year. However that all depends on the whole processes from getting Departmental approval for what we can get approval for and then the procurement process.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Are there many voids coming back?
Ms Caroline Curley:
This is part of it. On an annual basis there would be between 100 and 120 voids coming back in. This is part of the churn. This extra money was to help get rid of units that have been there for a long time; the void funding of €11,000 per house was not enough to cover them because we spend up to €170,000 per house.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Obviously a remedial job is being done here. The funding that has come from the repayment of the Troy Studios loan is giving the facility to do that. In terms of the voids scheme and the funding, from the time a house become empty and is a void, what is the process for getting that back into action? Are there bottlenecks in that process?
Ms Caroline Curley:
If it is a standard void with not too much money to be spent, by which I mean less than €25,000, that should not be delayed too much. We have to get out there and inspect it. We decide either to do it ourselves directly or appoint a contractor. We have frameworks in place for many of these and we try to get the contractors out. We would hope to turn around a void within three to four months. That would be a reasonable turnaround. Some are faster. Others that require the full gamut of work can take six or seven months. That is the reality.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What is the process in getting the funding from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to do the works on the voids?
Ms Caroline Curley:
The Department tells us in advance. In April we may be told we can have 99 houses at €11,000 each. The cost over and above that is ours to worry about from the point of view of what is in our revenue budget, what we may or may not have in our strategic capital fund and then our opportunities to get moneys such as this €6.6 million.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is it fair to say that a house on average might cost about €20,000 or €25,000 which in modern day terms is not a huge amount of money? Of that the State is providing about €11,000 so the council itself funds at least a half of the capital cost, is that fair to say?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I do not think the public understands that. That provides a challenge to the local authorities. Is that a challenge?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The point I am trying to make is so that the committee can look at whether there is a way to catch up with the long-term voids. We have a housing problem. We need to get houses back into stock as quickly as possible. The last thing that should be an impediment at the moment is funding. I would ask the committee to take that up.
The next point I want to take up is on the derelict houses.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy O'Donnell is out of time.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chair. I have two very quick questions. Of the 388 houses, 145 have been sold. Am I wrong? Am I roughly correct in saying that about half of the derelict housing was put up for private sale? Would that be a fair approximation?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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So that is roughly half. Would they go to first-time buyers on the open market?
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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In regard to the affordable housing schemes, 25 affordable houses went up in Castletroy. That was well received where I live. How have those schemes been going? Is there a buy-in from builders in regard to going for these type of schemes? Is there something on the funding side that we are missing to ensure that they will come more towards the affordable housing purchase scheme? That is a general question.
Ms Caroline Curley:
To date we have run two campaigns, one in January and the other in June. We managed to get one scheme of 25 houses, which we welcome, in Castletroy through the process. We are still working on a number of developments from the first call and will be working on developments from the second call. Generally speaking the developers are willing to work with us but they are obviously shopping around to see what else is on offer out there. We must remember the land development agency, LDA, is there with Project Tosaigh, we are there with our schemes and they also have the housing agency with Croí Cónaithe in the cities. There is a bit of shopping to be done by the developers but it is all encouragment for the developers.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Finally, in regard to the number of people, first-time buyers, who came forward and want to avail of affordable housing, what take-up has been received from the call put out to consumers, to first-time buyers?
Ms Caroline Curley:
I do not have the number. When we went out to gauge interest there was interest. Of course people said they were interested. The big thing is when you come to the stage of "this is the price and can you afford it?" With regard to the 25-house scheme which we are only in the initial stages of, we will have to go back and redo our scheme of allocations to make it very clear to people who can or cannot apply for it. That has to go to the Minister for approval.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I gave Deputy O'Donnell more leeway than he gave me earlier at the Committee on Transport and Communications.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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He did not have 20 colleagues.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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They were good questions. I will continue Deputy O'Donnell's line of questioning, in particular that idea of shopping around and the fact there are other competing interests. That underscores the point I was making earlier about local authorities developing affordable purchase on their own lands, where they act as developer and the builder is the client who builds the homes. That then puts 100% of the control in the local authority's hands. Would that be a fair assessment?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The council does have the land but it has prioritised other types of housing for it.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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That is fair enough but the council has given very little to affordable purchase.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Mixed tenure is crucial and I represent a constituency where that has been the case.
To move off that idea of affordable purchase, affordable rental and social delivery, I want to acknowledge the huge amount done by the two local authorities, which, compared to many that have come before us, are doing huge work. I have asked each of the local authorities a question and it is as blunt as this: given the targets they have, do they need any more money or staff from the Government to deliver what they have to deliver? I put that question to both local authorities.
Mr. Ivan Grimes:
There is never enough money. In fairness, certainly in the last couple of years, Waterford has been given approval and funding for additional staff on our capital delivery team and, more recently, for staff for the affordable side. Based on our pipeline for affordable, we will probably need more.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The council needs more.
Mr. Michael Walsh:
I would not want to increase the intensity of activity greatly at the moment, or that is the way I would put it. There is seriously intense activity and pressure to deliver on the existing schemes, and that would be my immediate inclination from a broader corporate point of view, if the Vice Chairman knows what I mean. We can always do with more money.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Would it be a fair assessment to say that the constraints on further delivery lie outside the idea of either financial resources or local authority staff?
Mr. Michael Walsh:
Right at the moment, they do. We need to develop experience in certain areas, particularly in cost rental and affordable. I want to go back to the Vice Chairman’s question on that issue. We are doing some schemes ourselves, as well as doing the development. The one area where we have absolutely no experience is the sale of houses and while that can be handed out to auctioneers and so on, it is a different game. At the moment, there is even a messaging issue with regard to affordable. We are an added complexity in the equation, or that is how I would describe it, in that people have to fill out the forms with us and get the approvals, yet they have to do all of the other things involved in a normal sale. Somehow, the simplification of that process would be far better. The Vice Chairman is right that if a developer is not in it, one can argue it is a simpler process, but we also need to be careful with what I would call public perception. The involvement of the councils, given our traditional involvement with social housing, is leaving a certain wariness around that, or whatever the proper word is. We have to conquer that and the only way to conquer it is to start a pipeline whereby people can see the product, see it working and see their friends doing this, and we will then change the dynamic.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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When this Dáil started in February 2020, the only toolbox that the local authorities had was to build social housing. If the council was going to build a development, that is all it could provide and everybody in that estate was going to be earning less than €42,000, and the limit was lower again in some parts of the country. Inevitably, the only tool available to the councils was to build low income, concentrated housing. Now, with Housing for All, they have the ability to develop their own mixed income, mixed tenure estates, so all of those restrictions and perceptions of what a local authority has done are gone. Local authorities are now liberated to build the type of estates that perhaps officials always argued they wanted. Would that be a fair assessment?
Dr. Pat Daly:
That is a fair point, as are the points made by Mr. Walsh and Mr. Grimes. While we would never say “No” to money or people, it is a case of when and how we would take them on board. There are competitive forces out there, not alone private but public, across different schemes. The point is well made. We may be looking for letting agents to come into the council. The perception of what we do and how we do it is still kind of traditional but it is changing. To get that full range, we need to bring on the new schemes.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I got the impression from Ms Curley’s answer that the councils do not yet have an affordable purchase scheme in place. Is that right?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I mean a selling scheme.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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That is the word I was looking for.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I warn Deputies that we have reached the end of the rota. Rather than go through a new circle, I will ask for lámha suas from anybody else who wants to come in.
With regard to voids, the National Oversight and Audit Commission, NOAC, issued its report on Friday, and Limerick had a 56-week waiting time for voids and in Waterford it was 31 weeks. Rather than me editorialising, I will let the witnesses comment on that.
Ms Caroline Curley:
We put our hands up. We have a number of long-term vacancies. What we calculate by is the number brought in and I know that when I bring in these 79 houses next year, it will be pretty long and it will look pretty bad too. My hope is that we will see a considerable drop in 2024. It is the average of all of the houses so if we have some long-term ones parked up, it will blow our returns out of the water.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Curley is talking about long-term voids.
Ms Caroline Curley:
Long-term voids, houses that are sitting there because we did not have the funding to be able to do them. Again, I come back to the €11,000 per house. It looks bad, and I admit that, but we are hoping that by 2024 we will see a considerable improvement. I would be aiming for six months and below but, again, there will always be a time lag because, between our own staff doing it and going out to contractors, it takes time to do them, assuming we are going in and doing the full job as opposed to-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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To continue Deputy O’Donnell’s point, the council’s issue is money.
Dr. Pat Daly:
It is the average of the average, as Ms Curley was saying. That is why the council was very innovative in supporting that. That money could have gone somewhere else but we put it directly into that to clean that out and to get us to a point where, within a couple of years, we will be back on a reasonable average and back to the median.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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What is the position in Waterford?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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That would have brought Waterford to having one of the best performances.
Mr. Ivan Grimes:
Yes. The reason for that is, like a couple of other local authorities, we have frameworks in place for each electoral district, so we have a single contractor per district. We have introduced choice-based letting and all of our properties are put on choice-based letting. There are a number of factors, other than just doing the work and allocating the house, that have to happen when the key comes in, for example, internal systems, Garda vetting and a whole series of things. In the last couple of years, there have been a couple of unforeseen issues but we are determined to get back below the 20 weeks.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What were the unforeseen issues?
Mr. Ivan Grimes:
It was Covid and its impact on people. Another factor, although people might find this difficult to believe, is that we find it very difficult to allocate houses in December. Getting people to take keys for houses, be they new or leased, is for some reason very difficult in December. People do not want to move at Christmas. We would have had a lot of properties-----
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Grimes can take it from me that they want it before Christmas.
Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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In November.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I can see Deputy Gould is shocked with that answer and I was too. It shows how the housing crisis is very different in different parts of the country.
Four speakers are indicating. Does everybody wish to speak? We might do the officials a favour. Rather than the officials coming back a second time, we will give all members eight minutes each and have one more round. Is that okay? Okay. I call Deputy Gould. I will call subsequent speakers in party order.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses again. It is great to get the different views and policies of the two local authorities and to hear how they are operating. There is certainly good work being done.
To touch base on the returns or the voids, Mr. Grimes made the point that Waterford City and County Council's goal has been to get back to a turnaround time of 15 weeks, which is a great ambition. That is the ambition we should look at. The point was made earlier - and this is an issue - that Cork City Council has, I think, 76 properties in this regard, which is unbelievable. The issue that keeps coming up today, however, is the amount of money the Department is spending to get voids back into use. I think Ms Curley referred a number of times to a figure of €11,000. Is the maximum not €25,000 or €26,000? Why is a figure of €11,000 coming into play?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is the maximum that can be claimed back.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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This is my point. Call me old-fashioned, but I believe that local authorities should not have to apply to the Department to get permission in respect of voids. On average, Limerick City and County Council is getting back ten a month. Limerick and Waterford councils should have the authority to get those out as quickly as possible and then apply to the Department to get the money back. In other words, they should be given the autonomy to do what they can do rather than going up and down to Dublin to get permission for voids. Do the witnesses think it would be a better system if the Department were to give local authorities that autonomy?
Ms Caroline Curley:
In fairness, maybe the Deputy misunderstood me. The Department generally issues a letter around April, I think. I am open to correction. This year we got a letter saying we could do 99 for €11,000. Therefore, the Department will multiply 99 by €11,000, and that is the amount of money it will give us. We are already working on them in January and February but we are trying to see what is the best way to do it. If we are going to spend only €5,000, we will not put that in as a void. We will spend it separately and save it up until we have one that is €11,000 or €25,000, as they turn out to be.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am not sure what the stock is like in Limerick or Waterford, but in Cork a lot of our stock could be 80, 90 or 100 years old. We are talking about major spending to get those properties up to standard and get them out. The Department should make funding available for properties that are older or in a rundown state to allow local authorities to get them out. Is that a fair enough point to make?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am not talking about objecting to money. If Limerick and Waterford councils had the money to deal with long-term lets, the really rundown properties, would that bring down their figures? I will put it this way. I know vacant properties that the council in Cork owns and that are scenes of antisocial behaviour, dumping and gangs, dragging down the whole community. It is a shame. The argument is that it will cost €60,000 or €70,000 to do up those properties and that the local authority does not have the money. Should the Department fund over and above the €11,000 to do up those properties? There must be properties like that in Limerick and Waterford.
Mr. Ivan Grimes:
The Department has, I think, provided funding to local authorities for long-term voids. We got funding last year for seven properties. Off the top of my head I am trying to recall the exact figure, but it was a unit cost of about €60,000-plus. Those were properties that had been damaged by fire, be it arson or-----
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Did that clear all the long-term lets?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have a few quick-fire questions. What is the cost of an affordable house in Limerick or Waterford that the local authorities are selling?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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No. If I want to buy a house from Waterford City Council under an affordable housing scheme, how much will I be charged-----
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The €75,000 comes after that. Is €250,000 an affordable price for a three-bedroom in Waterford?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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We will call it at €210,000. We will split the difference. Is €210,000 an affordable price for a house compared-----
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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What is the position in Limerick?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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What would a person buying that on the affordable housing scheme have to pay?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I would argue that 15% below market value would not be affordable to many people. We had one side of Dublin City Council before the committee saying that it is running an affordable housing scheme that is unaffordable. Do the witnesses think the affordable housing schemes in their local authorities are affordable to ordinary people?
Mr. Michael Walsh:
It is worth making the point that, generally, people will be attracted to the subsidy of €75,000 and can get the help-to-buy scheme relief of €30,000. The reality, in simple terms, is that €100,000 or €105,000 can be taken off that price. One can argue whether that is affordable. There certainly should be a sufficient cohort of people with that type of wage rate to be able to afford such a mortgage in Waterford. I cannot speak for Limerick.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I would say Mr. Walsh is right. The problem, however, is that some people do not qualify for social housing and do not have the wages to get affordable housing. We still have a trapped middle of people who are just above the social housing cap. What is the gross figure on the housing lists in Waterford and Limerick? When I say "gross" I include HAP, RAS and any other such scheme.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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And in Limerick?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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To return to derelict sites, how many such sites on the register belong to the local authorities?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Walsh can come back to us.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Do the witnesses know how many such sites are in Limerick?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is it the case that Limerick council does not have any site that belongs to it and that is derelict?
Mr. Gordon Daly:
We have quite an active property management unit. All property we own is being actively looked at. The sites or property we have is either in train for development purposes or we have disposed of it. We also sell a lot of property for which we do not have a use. We do not retain property. That is our policy.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is a great policy to have. I fully commend that.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Just one other thing. Have-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, you got an extra minute so you would stay within the time.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses can come back in afterwards.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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No. You are not doing that either.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses representing Limerick City and County Council said that the council has 76 properties that it either has sold or is in the process of selling and that it compulsorily purchased. Could those properties not be used for social housing or are they business properties? If the latter, why are they not being used as social housing?
I thank the witnesses. I really appreciate their comments.
Mr. Gordon Daly:
It is linked to what my colleagues have said. There is a backlog of voids already and we are working to get those done while taking on further properties. These would be effectively voids as well. They are derelict properties. The idea is not to put a further burden on the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, which is already working through an existing backlog of properties. We are trying to meet what is an objective in Housing for All, whereby there is a target of 2,500 vacant or derelict houses to be acquired by local authorities and sold on the open market. That is what we are doing. Also, particularly in small towns and villages, these are a form of affordable housing. We have sold derelict houses for €40,000 or €50,000. It might take €100,000 to get them back up and running.
That is an affordable house in a different way.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The opportunity is there in the new Croí Cónaithe scheme. I had a response last month that said it was being extended to rural one-off houses and cities in November. I understand that circular is going to be issued to local authorities next week. Given what Mr. Daly has said, I assume he would welcome that. If one takes the €100,000 that would be put into the unit disposed of for €50,000, now up to €50,000 will be available through the Croí Cónaithe scheme. That can be combined that with a Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, grant of up to €30,000, meaning that €80,000 of that cost is essentially being provided by the State. Does Mr. Daly concur with that view?
Mr. Gordon Daly:
Croí Cónaithe is a game changer in that respect, as are the SEAI grants that people can apply for to use in energy upgrades. Much of what we have talked about in Limerick City and County Council are the sticks such as compulsory purchase orders and levies and so on. The carrot was needed. That is being provided. It will now make them more attractive. It is early days. We have had 24 applications for Croí Cónaithe; eight of which were approved. We are seeing that starting to filter through.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Does Waterford City and County Council have the figure for the number that have applied so far?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Are they for one-offs awaiting the November-----
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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The point that this is another form of affordable housing is an important one. Not everybody wants to own a brand-new, A-rated home in an estate in the city. Some people want to live within their local communities, like what Deputy O'Donoghue referred to. They want to be able to take an older property and bring it back into productive use; that is what the Government is essentially doing through the Croí Cónaithe scheme.
Mr. Grimes did not get a chance to expand on my questions about the challenges encountered on the affordable proposition or the difficulties and constraints, particularly in the coastal setting market, which are replicated across the country. It is important to state that a €300,000 affordable unit in Waterford city is available for purchase by the purchaser with the help-to-buy scheme and the equity scheme for about €200,000. Any family that can sustain a mortgage of €200,000 is able to get their foot on the ladder. That is a key plank of Government policy in supporting people. Will Mr. Grimes talk about the challenges and the coastal piece in particular? It is a challenge for us.
Mr. Ivan Grimes:
The challenges are around the implementation of the first phase and learning eligibility rules for the likes of help-to-buy scheme and the implications that the cost of the property will have. As Mr. Walsh alluded to, there is a challenge in learning how to sell. We are not traditionally salespeople. We deliver rather than sell. That is something we are looking at at the moment. The issue around coastal towns is not unique to County Waterford. Any of the coastal counties will be experiencing this. The impact of holiday home markets is creating huge affordability difficulties in particular areas. We are actively working with Ó Cualann housing on a potential scheme in Ardmore. We are also looking at options for Tramore, Dungarvan and Dunmore East. We will engage with developers and look at our own sites to see what we can deliver. The key thing is getting density above 35 per hectare or else making a viable case to the Department that if the density is below that, the €75,000 subsidy should apply due to site constraints.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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My understanding from engagement with the Department is that cases can be made on a case-by-case basis as a result of constraints due to gradients or wayleaves, etc. I assume in the case of Ardmore, which is under 35 per hectare and has those constraints, that Waterford City and County Council will be making those cases.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I have asked other local authorities about the enhanced leasing scheme. Both Waterford and Limerick City and County Councils have utilised that as a delivery mechanism; they may have a number in their pipeline. I think the last delivery in Waterford under leasing is in 2024. A decision was made to phase that out. Given the expected reduction in the private rental sector market, opportunities exist in that space to activate some of the sites that have planning permissions. Other local authorities were supportive of the reintroduction of that leasing scheme. Recently, Cork City Council and one of the Dublin local authorities that were before us last week stated so. Would Limerick and Waterford City and County Councils support the reintroduction of that scheme?
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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I made the point on the floor of the Seanad a moment ago that nobody can honestly put their hand on their heart and say it is not better for an individual or family to be in a secure, long-term, 25-year property, in a lease, than it is to have them in a hotel, bed and breakfast accommodation or an unsecured HAP property. Value-for-money considerations must be taken into account, but given the position we are in at the moment, we must activate every planning permission that is out there. That is one of the ways it can be done. I thank the witnesses for answering in the positive about that.
On right sizing, perhaps the Vice Chair can allow a little latitude because I know Limerick City and County Council did a scheme on right sizing and Cork City Council brought forward something similar. Deputy Gould was supportive of those schemes in terms of the right sizing approach. They said they did it on the basis that one third of the units would be for private downsizers within the scheme. Waterford City and County Council has a scheme of 71 units being delivered, which is geared at older persons. Has Waterford City and County Council developed its right sizing scheme? What percentage of that scheme does it intend to utilise for the private downsizer? Cork City Council emphasised the importance of that mix, with not just its own local authority tenants moving into the scheme but also the private side and the positive benefit of that.
Mr. Ivan Grimes:
We intend to have a right sizing element to the St. Joseph's site. I made a note to speak to Ms Curley afterwards about her experience in Limerick. It is our intention. We have a meeting with the Irish Council for Social Housing next week and we will hope to finalise plans for the site.
John Cummins (Fine Gael)
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Cork City Council would be a good point of contact in that respect, given what I would like to see, which is one third of the units being delivered. Waterford City and County Council would get the benefit of that because it is taking those into social housing.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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What is the average cost for a three-bed semi-detached house in Limerick for people who want to avail of help-to-buy and Croí Cónaithe schemes?
From that perspective, those schemes will take roughly €100,000 off the cost. Before that amount is taken off, what is the cost for a three-bedroom semi-detached house? What kind of area, in square feet, would we be talking about?
Ms Sarah Newell:
The average area would be around 110 sq. m for a three-bedroom home and up to a four-bedroom house. The target sales prices we have been examining, and taking on board the point made by the witnesses from Waterford on what a household can afford, means we are looking at a cost of between €220,000 and €250,000.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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An area of 100 sq. m would be roughly 176 sq. ft. I think that would be about right. We are, therefore, looking at 176 sq. ft and this is based on town houses and city houses.
Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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The witnesses are saying the cost is, roughly, €220,000 after the funding is accounted for. We must then look at housing in the context of the funding that is going to be introduced for rural houses in towns and villages. Some of the houses that will come under this scheme will not be on the sewerage system and there will be an immediate cost of a minimum of €10,000 in this regard. Regarding those properties that will qualify under the sewerage schemes, the capacity in the towns and villages I mentioned earlier has already been exceeded.
This goes back to the infrastructure problem we have in the rural parts of the county compared with the metropolitan parts which do have infrastructure. Many of our towns and villages which want to avail of this scheme are already caught because they do not have the infrastructure. This is not the fault of the councils. It is the fault of Governments that did not provide the proper funding for the development of infrastructure in the first place. It is also connected with the changeover in responsibility from the local authorities to Irish Water. Many of the sewerage systems were left because the changeover was imminent. They were not updated.
People in rural areas are at the back in everything because the infrastructure is not there. This was the point I was making earlier to Ms Curley. I am here to represent the people in the rural areas. We are on the back foot because of the lack of infrastructure. I go around the towns and villages in County Limerick. Killmallock and Croom are in a good state, while Adare is okay. When I go out into places like Hospital and Dromcolliher, though, and then head on to Glin and Foynes, where we are now looking at infrastructure, the people living in these places are not on the same playing field as people living in Limerick city. This whole matter comes back to infrastructure and the need for us to provide it to the people living in the towns and villages.
I keep returning to the subject of the towns and villages. To build up our areas, where people want to live because they are familiar with the culture and they can live alongside the friends they have had all their lives, we must put in transport infrastructure that will let people travel to the city. They will then support the city, like they used to do years ago. The first thing people wanted to do then was to head in to the city to do their weekly shopping. It has now been made more convenient and this means they do not have to travel as much. In these towns and villages we have many voids and houses that need to be done up. As Ms Curley said, this comes back to the problem of money. I am a contractor and €11,000 will do nothing in a house, whether it is a three-bedroom or four-bedroom house or whatever. It would hardly do anything in a two-bedroom property. In this day and age, the windows and doors for a three-bedroom house will cost around €6,000. The budget is blown at that point.
With regard to insulation and the grants available, despite all the goodwill from the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, no one is available to do the work required. When they are available to do this work, they move into the cities where they can get a line of 20 houses to work on, which will make it viable. Two or three houses together will not be considered because it is not viable to undertake that work.
All the funding being provided is benefiting the cities. The LDA project is a city project and has nothing to do with a rural area. There is no funding available in County Limerick from the LDA outside of the boundaries of Limerick city. All that is being looked at is the area within a 15-minute window of Limerick city. That includes Croom, Adare and Patrickswell but nowhere else. Only areas within a 15-minute proximity of Limerick city are being considered, which wipes out more than two thirds of the county I represent.
On the affordable purchase scheme, some people say the average income now is between €25,000 and €30,000. The scheme is fine until we look at the minimum wage, which is €10.50. This means two people in a house working for the minimum wage will only be earning approximately €40,000 overall. When we take account of inflation and trying to rear a family, these people will have nothing left, whether houses are regarded as affordable to buy or not.
From the perspective of the schemes, more money must be given to local authorities to address voids. Limerick City and County Council owns 178 voids, many of which have been left there. We are also now talking about people who have voids themselves. We are talking about fining them under the heading of dereliction when we have 178 properties of our own that are void, some of which are in a state of dereliction. The council is not getting the funding required from the Department to address that. On one hand, we are fining people who have derelict properties while, on the other, the council can still not get the money from the Department to fix long-term voids. We are punishing people on one hand, while on the other hand the Department is saying it has no money to give to the council to address its derelict properties.
I refer to the big money required to bring these properties out of a state of dereliction. What we want is a bit of even play in this regard. There are people who have derelict properties and want to bring them up to standard but cannot afford to do so. They need help. Bringing such properties out of a state of dereliction will mean they will be going back to being regarded as void and we can put people into them and they will be counted as community builds.
Let us look at the parishes I represent. We now have parishes joining up. Before we had Granagh-Ballingarry. Now we have Granagh-Ballingarry-Croom at certain ages because they cannot get the required number of people. We want the same thing in the county that the city has, that is, the numbers. We do not, however, have the infrastructure. I want money for County Limerick for infrastructure. I want the local authority to build and then support the city and everything around it. This would give me a business study in respect of infrastructure for everyone in Ireland.
On travel, we heard someone refer to getting the last train out of here. People are lucky to be able to get a train. If I have to get a train, I have to go to Charleville. If I am delayed in the Dáil until 11 p.m. and cannot get the last train out of Dublin at 9 p.m., I cannot get the train at Charleville and have to take a bus that will drop me in Adare or Annacotty. I leave my car in Charleville, however, so someone would have to come and collect me . Infrastructure should be provided for all and money should be provided for local authorities. They can prove that they can produce the goods when they get the funding. We need such funding, however, as much for rural areas as we do for metropolitan areas.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses again. I have a few questions, starting with the help-to-buy scheme. Have the local authorities had many applicants for the scheme? As was referred to already, some people find themselves slightly outside the limits. They fall between two stools, in that they also do not qualify for a mortgage. Is there any degree of flexibility to help people in that situation?
Mr. Ivan Grimes:
We have had 150 draft applications and approximately 40 applicants who have submitted all the documentation. This is all online. Regarding the help-to-buy scheme, I understand there was a bit of a backlog initially but that has been resolved. As Mr. Walsh said, we are trying to look at how to market this scheme better and boost the number of completed applications. All we are doing now is selling a process. We need to start creating a better marketing version of what it is we are doing. We will be doing that and we are looking at it actively.
Ms Caroline Curley:
We are not advanced enough to be able to have any figures on the help-to-buy scheme. It is a scheme being run from the centre. The local authority, as such, has no part in it. It is done through the financial institutions. We are not even tuned into how to ensure that when we are ready with our schemes people will know they are there and how to access them.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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That is grand. My next question concerns units for people with disabilities. There was a big push for sheltered accommodation at one stage, but there does not seem to be as much of this type of accommodation coming on stream. Are there schemes in place in either of the local authorities concerning the provision of sheltered accommodation, especially for older people?
Mr. Ivan Grimes:
We have a couple of schemes for the elderly, one in Waterford city which Senator Cummins mentioned earlier, and another in Tramore which is being transferred from a local AHB to Oaklee. Our doors are always open to any AHBs that have particular groups with needs they want to provide accommodation for. We have a good relationship with a few of those AHBs.
Ms Caroline Curley:
In regard to Limerick we still do elderly accommodation and the scheme that popped into my head straight away was Mungret, the one that is held up in the judicial review, where there are 50 social houses that we are looking at for the elderly. Overall we have a pledge in for Housing for All and it is in our development plan that 15% of our design will be universal design which will cover both disability and the elderly. What we are trying to do is keep everybody in place for as long as they can live there and make the house a lifelong place for them.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Can I ask about the rental accommodation scheme, RAS? We do not hear as much about it. I know there are still RAS contracts out there but is there much emphasis on it nowadays or is it more on social housing and the housing assistance payment, HAP?
Ms Caroline Curley:
We still have a number of RAS contracts although the number is dropping. For anybody in a RAS house, we find a new place for them should the notice to quit be served, unless we move them to a social house. It is still very much part of our thing but there are no new ones as such and we are not trying to get more because the emphasis is on the build.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Okay, I thank Ms Curley.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I will take an opportunity to speak and will let Deputy Gould in for a moment at the end. To reflect Deputy O'Donoghue's point it is important that we say to anyone looking in who is from a town or village that a huge number of the schemes available in Housing for All are available in towns and villages. I refer to schemes such as Croí Cónaithe, the affordable rental and affordable purchase schemes, the Part 5 increase from 10% to 20%, the first home scheme and the owner-occupier guarantee. He made a very valid point, however, that all of that is based on infrastructure. I join many of my colleagues in Fianna Fáil in being really perplexed at some of the requests from the OPLA to reduce or de-zone land at this time based on capacity, as opposed to working the other way and putting capacity in. I have two questions on waiting lists. What demand is there for social housing for one, two and three-bedrooms by percentage? Do the witnesses have those figures?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Is it 40% one bedroom properties?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I know in Dublin city the demand for one and two beds is 80%. Would Dr. Daly say that it is maybe not as high as that in Limerick but in the same area?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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If we are building social housing should we build one and two bedrooms in order to satisfy the need for housing units that exists and given that many of these households have been on the list for some time it is likely to be the family-sized units they will have as well. What about Waterford?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Again, close to 80% of the demand would be for one and two bedrooms.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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That is interesting because I know we often talk about family-sized units and three bedroom units and so on and sometimes in that debate the absolute need, not even the nicety, for one and two bedrooms is there. I call Deputy Gould next.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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We discussed targets for 2026; do the local authorities think they will reach their targets on social, affordable and cost rental between now and then?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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If they reach their targets will their housing lists reduce as a result? I ask because so many local authorities appear before the committee and say they will meet their targets but there are so many people coming on the housing lists on the other side that even if they hit all their targets their lists would still be worse in 2026. It the witnesses hit all their Government targets, will their housing lists be more or less than estimated in 2026?
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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They should know the answer.
Mr. Michael Walsh:
It depends on economic activity, the employment situation at the time and whether the economy stays as it is, so a lot of factors influence it. Another factor is inward migration, particularly in urban areas, and that is very difficult. If you are successful you compound your problems. In that sense it is a hard question. If we stayed static we would reduce the lists but the scale of the reduction is difficult to put a handle on.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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The time is running out.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Just to clarify, do the local authorities' building and targets supersede the number of people who are coming on the list every year? I have a final question, Chair. Limerick made a point about 76 houses they have either sold or are going to sell. Can I ask if they are being sold to investment funds or to cuckoo funds or are they being sold to ordinary people?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Surely you would call them extraordinary people, Deputy Gould.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is right.
Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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What we do not want is investment funds buying potential homes from people who need them. I would have a concern about that.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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That concludes our business today. I ask Ms Curley to check the figure of €11,000 per unit as there was some debate on it here so it would be useful if she could clarify it for the committee in writing because we have had other figures from other local authorities and this is about us finding out what each local authority's experience is. If she could check and come back to the committee on that we would appreciate it. I wish to also thank the witnesses for the work they do and for coming in to communicate that to the committee.