Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 27 October 2022
Public Accounts Committee
2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth
Chapter 13 - Guardian Ad Litem Follow-up Report
9:30 am
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have a full house this morning. I hope we will have seating accommodation for everybody. I begin by welcoming everyone to this morning's meeting. Apologies have been received from Deputy Imelda Munster.
If attending from within the committee room, attendees are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect themselves and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19.
Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of the Parliament. This is due to the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, Members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit.
The Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, is a permanent witness to the committee. He is accompanied this morning by Mr. John Crean, deputy director of audit, at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.
This morning we will engage with officials from the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to examine the following matters: Appropriation Accounts 2021: Vote 40 - children, equality, disability, integration and youth. The Department has been advised that the committee has expressed a particular interest in direct provision, emergency accommodation, and related matters.
Also for examination from the Comptroller and Auditor General's 2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services is chapter 13 - guardian ad litemfollow-up report.
We are joined by the following officials from the Department: Mr. Kevin McCarthy, Secretary General; Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks assistant secretary; Ms Carol Baxter, assistant secretary; Ms Lara Hynes, assistant secretary; and Ms Sheenagh Rooney, assistant secretary. We are joined by the following representatives from Tusla in relation to the guardian ad litem report: Mr. Bernard Gloster, chief executive officer and Ms Kate Duggan, deputy CEO, national director of services and integration. The following representatives from the relevant Vote section in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform are joining us remotely from within the precincts of Leinster House: Ms Jessica Lawless, principal officer, and Mr. Fionn Jenkinson, assistant principal officer. The witnesses are all very welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.
Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege, and the practice of the Houses as regards the reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. Witnesses within the precincts of Leinster House are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 218 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies.
Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I now call on the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, for his opening statement.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
The 2021 appropriation account for Vote 40 records gross expenditure of €1.8 billion. This was distributed across five output programmes that provide a broad range of services to meet the needs of children and of vulnerable persons in society.
Programme A provides for children and family support. This is the largest area of spending under the Vote, at approximately €888 million, or 49% of the total. The grant to Tusla, amounting to €857 million in 2021, represents the bulk of the spending on the programme.
Programme B comprises funding for a wide range of schemes and programmes to benefit children and young people, at a combined cost of €680 million in 2021. This area of spending has increased rapidly in recent years, and it was significantly affected by Covid-19 restrictions over the past two years. Most of the schemes funded under the programme are administered by Pobal, acting as an agent on behalf of the Department.
Expenditure of just over €200 million in 2021 was charged to programme E, which funds the provision of support for international protection seekers.
Most of the expenditure was in respect of accommodation for persons seeking international protection, accounting for €191 million in 2021. Members will be aware of the very significant additional pressures in that regard that have fallen on the Department in 2022, as a result of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
The remaining two Vote programmes are on a smaller scale. One supports a range of equality initiatives, the other caters for policy development and legislation within the Department’s remit. Due mainly to savings that occurred across the Vote, the surplus at the end of 2021 was €98.5 million. The Department was allowed to carry €3.2 million over to 2022, to fund capital works, but surrendered €95 million at the year end.
A clear audit opinion was issued in relation to the appropriation account. However, I drew attention to the disclosure by the Accounting Officer in the statement on internal financial control regarding non-compliance with procurement rules. This was mainly in relation to contracts put in place for the provision of accommodation to international protection seekers.
Members may also wish to note that, while the Department has been developing its ICT infrastructure, it still relied in early 2021 on the provision of financial management system services by the Department of Health. This support service was interrupted as a result of the ransomware attack on health sector bodies that occurred in May 2021. Work-around processes were adopted for a period, and completion of a planned migration of the Department’s financial management service away from the Department of Health’s systems was accelerated. Normal financial management functions were resumed by the end of June 2021.
I turn now to the chapter which is on the agenda for today. A guardian ad litemis an independent person appointed by a court to ensure the best interests and views of a child or children are heard in public family law proceedings. While the service is provided at the direction of the courts, the costs of the service are discharged by Tusla, even though the organisation is a party to the family law proceedings. The cost of the guardian ad litemservice averages at €14 million to €15 million a year. Costs vary widely at the individual case level. I previously examined the operation of the guardian ad litemservice, and published a report on my findings in September 2016. That report contained three recommendations which, at the time, were agreed to by the Department and by Tusla. Our examination this year found that the recommendations had not been implemented, for a variety of reasons. However, a revised legislativebasisfor the provision of the guardian ad litemservice was finalised in July of this year, with the enactment of the Child Care (Amendment) Act 2022. This potentially removes the main obstacles that prevented progress being made in developing effective management oversight and control mechanisms for the service.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome Mr. Kevin McCarthy back to the committee room. As detailed in the letter of invitation, he has five minutes to give his opening statement.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I thank the committee for this invitation to attend to assist in its examination of the 2021 Appropriation Account of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration
and Youth and of Chapter 13 of the Report on the Public Services 2021: Guardian ad Litemfollow-up report. I am accompanied by my colleagues Ms Carol Baxter, assistant secretary; Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks, assistant secretary; Ms Sheenagh Rooney, assistant secretary; and Ms Lara Hynes, acting assistant secretary. We are also supported by Mr. Gordon Gaffney, finance officer; Mr. Andrew Patterson, principal officer; Ms Marie-Louise Molloy, professional accountant; Ms Erin Ryle, administrative officer; and David Byrne, principal officer.
In my opening statement I will give a very brief overview of the main features of the Vote. I hope the more detailed briefing supplied in advance of the meeting is of assistance to the committee in providing a fuller picture of the work of the Department and its expenditure. As we all know, the year 2021 brought ongoing challenges from the Covid-19 pandemic which continued to impact on how we delivered services and required ongoing adaptation and innovation in order to support our objectives to enhance the lives of children and young people, adults, families and communities; to recognise diversity; and to promote equality of opportunity in Ireland.
During the year there were some minor changes to the responsibilities under the remit of the Department. There was a transfer out of functions related to education welfare services from the Department to the Department of Education and responsibility for the Balance for Better Business initiative transferred to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Both transfers took effect from January 2021. The total provision for the Vote in 2021 was €1.923 billion which included capital carryover of €4.1 million.
In terms of the Vote, three spending areas represent almost 90% of the overall Vote spending in 2022, namely Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, early learning and childcare, and international protection seekers' accommodation. The current expenditure allocation was €1.887 billion, with a further €36.1 million allocated for capital expenditure, including capital carryover. The net allocation for the Vote was €1.884 billion when appropriations-in-aid of €39.1 million are taken into account. The final outturn for the Vote in 2021 was €1.785 billion, with a surplus of €98.5 million of which €3.2 million is to be deferred as capital carryover to 2022 leaving a total to be surrendered at year end of €95.3 million.
During 2021, Covid-19 continued to impact on spending across all areas of the Vote. In Quarter 1 of 2021, the Early Childhood Care and Education Programme, ECCE, was suspended and access to other early learning and childcare services were restricted to children of essential workers and children experiencing disadvantage. Moreover, for the remainder of 2021, there was a reduced demand for early learning and childcare owing to changes in parental working arrangements and other Covid-19-related issues. This led to savings across all early learning and childcare funding programmes, namely ECCE, access and inclusion model, AIM, and the national childcare scheme, and resulted in an underspend of €46.7m, or 7% of the allocation of €640.2 million for early learning and childcare.
The impact of Covid-19 also contributed to an underspend of €27.2 million, or 12% of the 2021 provision of €218 million for international protection seekers' accommodation and related services costs. It should be noted that restrictions on international travel resulted in lower than anticipated arrivals and demand for international accommodation. Towards the end of 2021 as we emerged from Covid-19 restrictions, expenditure across the Vote, particularly in areas such as early learning and childcare and international protection accommodation, started to rebound and this has continued apace into 2022. All other areas on the Vote also started to return to normal patterns of spending.
When I addressed the committee in June, I referenced the significant impact the outbreak of the war in Ukraine was having on the work of the Department. The demands of this situation have not abated in the meantime. The Department’s role in the humanitarian response to the needs of Ukrainians arriving here under the temporary protection directive continues to pose major challenges and has involved a significant diversion and allocation of staffing resources. The parallel and significant increase in numbers of applicants for international protection in 2022 has also placed extreme pressure on resources. The overall requirements of this response, including the use of various forms of emergency accommodation, has had, and will continue to have, a significant impact on costs in 2022 and beyond as the Department continues to deal with the twin challenges of providing accommodation for Ukrainians and other international protection applicants.
I refer also to Chapter 13 of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2021. This chapter is a follow-up report on guardian ad litem or GAL reform. As the committee is aware, GALs are appointed in child care proceedings to ascertain the views of the child and communicate these to the court. The GAL also makes recommendations to the court as to what is in the best interests of the child. The Department has acknowledged that the present arrangements for GAL services are in need of significant reform. Work has been ongoing for several years to provide the legislative underpinning necessary for this reform. The committee will be aware that the Child Care (Amendment) Act 2022, which provides for the reform of the GAL system, and will enable the
Minister to establish a new national GAL service, was signed into law on 19 July. The Department intends to publish a request for tender in the coming weeks for the development of an operating model and practice manuals for the new GAL service and legal services unit. This will build on significant work already undertaken, including costings prepared for different models of the service, the development of an IT system to be used by GALs for case management, and extensive discussions with relevant stakeholders. The Department also has sanction for a director post for the new office, and intends to recruit a
director for the service next year. It is expected that the body of work to establish the executive office and the new national service will continue throughout 2023 and into 2024. The purpose of this reform is to regulate and expand the provision of GAL services in a consistent manner across the country. The reformed service will enhance the rights of children and the capacity of the courts to make the right decisions in helping children and their families.
The reformed service will enhance the rights of children and the capacity of the courts to make the right decisions in helping children and their families. I am satisfied that it can also address the concerns raised in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General regarding the costs of the service and the lack of transparency and oversight that exists under the current unregulated system.
Finally, in reviewing the 2021 accounts, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all my colleagues in the Department, and our partner agencies and providers, for the enormous contributions they have made in sustaining delivery on so many our objectives during 2021 and since in the face of successive unprecedented challenges from the Covid-19 pandemic and the war in Ukraine. I thank the committee members and Chairman for their attention and look forward to taking their questions.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy. Deputy Verona Murphy is first this morning and she has 15 minutes.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I wish everybody a good morning. Going on Mr. McCarthy's opening statement, could he explain why seven years after the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the reform of the guardian ad litem, GAL, service, we still do not have implementation of the recommendations? Can he explain that?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What did the legislation change?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The legislation was to provide the basis for the establishment of an executive office and the regulation of the GAL service. There is not currently a statutory underpinning for it. It is very much on an ad hoc basis. That legislation was prepared and published in January 2017 and made its passage through the Houses. There were issues around the original set of proposals. A number of issues were raised on Committee Stage.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Hold on a second. The Department accepted the issues at the time. It accepted the recommendations.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Are there issues regarding that versus the recommendations?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am asking a question about why the recommendations have not been implemented. I have looked at the legislation and at the recommendations and I do not see why not.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The key enabler to implementing the recommendations is to establish the GAL on a statutory footing. The intention is to establish an executive office. As I said, the legislation was published in January 2017 and made its way through Committee Stage in the Houses when the general election was called in mid-2020. We brought back revised proposals following the election and the appointment of the new Minister, which took account of some of the issues that had been raised through the Committee Stage discussions and by stakeholders in the preparation of the original legislation. That legislation has been enacted from July so that paves the way for us now, as I said in my opening statement, to appoint a director and put the arrangements in place.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Has that happened?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Right.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We have sanction for the appointment of a director post. The next step is to issue a request for tender for the preparation of operating manuals and operational procedures to put further shape on the legal services. There is a project now planned in terms of the establishment of the office on foot of the legislation.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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To be fair, while the legislation was going through and regardless of that, the Department had many years to prepare the programme.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
There was quite a bit of work done, to be fair. A project team and office was established within the Department and a programme board was put in place, which has done much of the preparatory and planning work for the establishment of the office. On foot of that, we are picking up on that work now.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What is the timescale then with regard to the reforms?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Why only in 2023?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Department has had the legislation since July.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We are going back to 2015. We are already seven years and will be eight years from a report that will probably be significantly outdated, and nothing has happened in between.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It does when nothing gets implemented and nothing changes. At the same time, we will probably be looking for another report by 2023.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is Mr. McCarthy, as Secretary General, happy with this? Does he think this is acceptable?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is it acceptable in Mr. McCarthy's opinion? He is the Secretary General.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is a "Yes" or "No" answer. Is it acceptable?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The timing of the passing of the legislation is obviously outside of our control. Much effort was made to take on board issues that were raised through the passage and development of that legislation around the content of the legislation. Complex legal issues arose in the course of that.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The delay is inordinate and unacceptable. Would Mr. McCarthy agree?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does Mr. McCarthy understand when I ask whether he agrees? Is this a difficulty within Departments that they do not understand the English language? "Would he agree?" is a binary question. That is a "Yes" or "No" answer.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I did not ask Mr. McCarthy that. I am sure there are. I am telling him the delay is inordinate and asking him whether it is unacceptable. Does he agree - "Yes" or "No"?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Will the Chair direct Mr. McCarthy to answer "Yes" or "No" to that question?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Deputy asked a question.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The question I posed has a "Yes" or "No" answer. I will pose it again. The delay in implementing the recommendations is inordinate and unacceptable. Would Mr. McCarthy agree?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. McCarthy agrees. He said, "I would agree". That will do, Chair, because I have limited time.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. McCarthy could and would agree because it is inordinate and unacceptable. I will move on because there are a number of other issues that are clearly unacceptable as well. There was €95 million returned from the budget. Can Mr. McCarthy explain that?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The most significant factors there were early years and international protection. As the Deputy will recall, as a result of Covid-19 closures in 2021 from the earlier part of the year, services were closed due to public health restrictions other than to essential workers. That, therefore, resulted in significant savings on the early years front in particular. In the case of international protection, the overall arrivals numbers were significantly down in 2021 on the normal projected arrivals level, again, because of international travel restrictions in that case.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Department's Estimates were not off.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is fine.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Having said that, we were in extraordinary times. Was there no mention of a virement? We were severely lacking in respite beds. As a matter of fact, I dealt with Tusla at the time because we had families with foster children with autism issues who needed a break during Covid. Would the Department not have suggested that the money would have been diverted to those services?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
There was a reuse of elements of the savings, certainly within the early years sector, to provide things like reopening supports and other targeted sectoral supports. Obviously, we would have an ongoing dialogue with Tusla in terms of needs in a particular year and we would have ongoing dialogue with colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform around need.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Was there any suggestion that the Department should say it would not and that it would just give the money back?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I understand. I am asking whether there was a suggestion of virement.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am aware of the range of demands; I am just wondering how come none of them actually warranted extra money and that the money went back. That is why I am asking. What made the Department send it back as opposed to giving into the demands around, for example, respite beds?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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That is not what I asked Mr. McCarthy but anyway, it does not seem to matter what I ask. With regard to Pobal, a report in the appropriation account for 2021 references a review that was carried out as to the service level agreements with the Department and Pobal. Who carried out the review?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
That would be between ourselves and Pobal. We have a service level agreement in place. The service level agreement provides for periodic reviews to ensure it continues to meet the requirements of both parties and, in particular, our requirements from an oversight perspective to ensure that it continues to be consistent with best practice and requirements from a governance point of view.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I asked who carried out the review.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Collectively. An outside party was not brought in to do it.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What were the main recommendations from the review? Has it been completed?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What were the main recommendations?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What were they?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There are enough officials here; somebody must know.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can one of the officials come back in and answer Deputy Murphy's question during the meeting?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Thank you, Chair. Is it correct that the Department has an audit committee?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How many members are appointed to the committee and how often does it meet?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Are there minutes of those meetings?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Who is on the committee?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I ask that it be submitted to the committee.
I want to move on to the issue of non-competitive procurement. It is just an extension of what we see in the recommendations of the Comptroller and Auditor General's 2015 report. In 2015, a report was published on non-compliant procurement. Although it was less, there was €57 million in non-compliant procurement over a ten-year period. In 2021, non-compliant procurement totalled €91 million. Do we learn anything? Is it ever taken on board when a report of that nature is issued? A procurement process is a legal requirement. There is €91 million worth of illegal contracts in place, involving 54 different entities that have not had to follow the procurement process. Do any legal issues arise from this? Is the Department at risk of being sued for not following procurement rules?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We are satisfied that we are not. To put those 54 contracts into context, 52 of them are in the international protection area, which was the subject of significant non-compliant procurement in 2020, as well as 2021. The context was that we were facing significant challenges in meeting the needs of international protection. In the Covid environment, for example, there was a requirement for the "thinning out", as it was referred to, of facilities. In other words, people had to be moved on from existing international protection facilities in a context where public health requirements were introduced, including social distancing and so on. The contracts at that time-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does that mean that every other Department would have had the same level non-compliance, if that was the case?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is Mr. McCarthy aware of the previous report from the Department of Justice?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No, I was referring to the Department of Justice report. The 2015 report was on the guardian ad litemservice. I was referring to the last report of the Department of Justice before the responsibility for international protection was transferred. Did the Department of Justice just tell the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to handle it?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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So, the Department would have been aware that procurement was an issue then? It is a much bigger issue now.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I would agree that €91 million worth of non-compliance is a big challenge.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am running out of time. In relation to-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The reality is that it is important but I have not seen a report handed in with the Department's accounts that explains it.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Significant correspondence has been exchanged between the Department and the committee on this matter. It has been the subject of a number of queries. The main point is that these contracts were subject to competitive processes. They were not compliant with the EU directive requirements. We have subsequently-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Which makes them illegal contracts. Is the Secretary General aware of that? They are illegal contracts.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I have one more question that I need to ask.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There are 4,500 people with status currently involved in what Mr. McCarthy is talking about, who are still living in direct provision. How has the Department raised that matter? These are people with status, who are eligible to go and find their own accommodation or can apply for social housing. How has the Department raised that issue, and how much is it costing?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
These issues are all part of the same challenge. Just to finish what I was saying about procurement, on foot of the RFT there is a limited amount of additional accommodation coming on stream. We continue to procure outside of that process to meet the demands of international protection. The demands on the international protection front, as the Deputy is aware, have grown very significantly over the course of this year. We have seen over 11,000 arrivals so far this year, as against the normal projected arrivals rate of 3,500 per year. There is absolutely an issue with the number of people with status within the system, who continue to remain in accommodation provided as part of the international protection process. That is part of the wider challenge in terms of-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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They are no longer part of that system.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
They have completed their process. These are people who have a right to remain. We are putting in place supports, and we have in place supports, to assist them in moving on. On the Deputy's question as to what we are doing to raise the issue, we identified it as an important issue in terms of the good functional operation of the international protection system. We need a better means of assisting those people in moving on and out of the international protection system.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I could not agree more. My point here is that there are 4,500 people who are not recognised as being homeless, who should be added to our homeless list. I am asking who is highlighting the issue. The Government is quoting figures that are unrealistic and untrue. We have this issue to deal with on top of it all. It is something that should be publicised.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will have a second round of questions.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is the issue accommodation?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I call on Deputy Dillon, who has ten minutes.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I also welcome our guests who are joining us today, and acknowledge their extreme efforts in the last 12 months in supporting the Ukrainian refugees and in the provision of accommodation. I will continue Deputy Verona Murphy's line of questioning on the capacity of the international protection system and the current capacity of the current temporary Ukrainian protection system. Perhaps Mr. McCarthy can differentiate between both systems in terms of how we are approaching it, and can indicate what the current capacity is within the system.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The simple answer is that we are operating at full capacity on an ongoing basis and the challenge is to continue to add capacity in order to meet the new demand that is arising on a day-by-day basis. I referenced the figures on the number of arrivals on international protection. We have seen over 11,000 so far this year, and we have of the order of 16,000 in our international protection accommodation at this point in time. In addition, we have 43,000 or thereabouts on the Ukraine side in accommodation provided by the State. Overall, we are currently accommodating well over 50,000 people on both fronts. It continues to be a significant challenge, particularly given that we are currently looking at a seven-day rolling average of close to 200 Ukrainian arrivals - 194 or something of that order - and a daily arrivals average of something of the order of 50 to 60 on the international protection side. It is a daily challenge to add capacity.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. With regard to the scale of the task of screening, Mr. McCarthy previously mentioned that there were 3,500 international protection applicants yearly. That has increased to 11,000. The concern among communities is that we are not doing checks at the same level. What are we doing to alleviate concerns among communities given the number of migrants entering our country without adequate screening or safeguarding? Have the Department and Tusla put measures in place to respond to the concerns about child protection, trafficking, safeguarding and de-risking – the issues that nearly every community across Ireland will face?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In the centres, which are in nearly every town across Ireland, have we established a formal process to ensure adequate training for the staff and security personnel trying to integrate the people into our society, such that there will be a certain level of protection?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In how many locations across Ireland do we now have centres established? What protections do we have in place across all of these centres?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Should Mr. McCarthy not have that figure?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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My time is limited, so I am going to have to move on.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We have a figure of 666 in total across both international protection and Ukraine. IPAS centres would all have child safeguarding policies in place, and relevant staff would be vetted. When we come to rely on emergency settings, it is more challenging. There is no question about that. I refer in particular to hospitality settings. It is important to emphasise, however, that children arriving will be arriving in the care of their parents and will remain in their care. Where children are unaccompanied, a very strict process and protocol kick in immediately on arrival to ensure their needs are met. Mr. Gloster might want to say something more about that.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Mr. McCarthy has clarified my initial question.
Regarding temporary accommodation settings, has accommodation reserved for international protection applicants been used? Could Mr. McCarthy give me some detail on this?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That has been used for temporary accommodation measures.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Yes, there has. At an earlier stage of this challenge, we would have had some spare capacity in recognised international protection centres, for example. We have contracted with hotels that have subsequently come through a request-for-tenders process for international protection accommodation. Given the pressures on international protection accommodation in these circumstances, we have had to pivot to international protection where international protection applicants can be accommodated. We are much more limited in terms of the range of offerings available to us on the international protection front.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the matter of trying to communicate that to local communities, how is the information being disseminated? There is some concern. I am referring to the Department’s engagement with local authorities and local communities to ensure their concerns are taken on board. What type of communication plan has the Department? At the minute, we, as public representatives, are hearing absolutely nothing on the ground.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It has not happened in the past seven months.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
There have been instances where we have had to move much more quickly than planned because of the pressure. We obviously try to avoid situations in which we have no accommodation to offer to somebody. We found ourselves in that situation within the last week, as members will be aware. The challenge for us throughout all this has been to try to meet the needs of people on arrival, which means on the day they arrive. We have a holding facility in Citywest that has allowed us to buy a little time at times, but that is operating at full capacity at this point. It does create issues whereby we have to move much more quickly, and we have to short-circuit some of the consultation we would like to have in normal circumstances. In a normal environment, there would be a very well-planned engagement and communications process when significant moves are planned and being made. However, in the circumstances, it has not always been possible.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Going forward, who will take the lead in relation to securing additional accommodation? Will it be Mr. McCarthy’s Department or the local authority? How will this proceed over the coming months as circumstances escalate on the basis of what is happening in Ukraine?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Who will take the lead role?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We work very closely with the local authorities in respect of the Ukraine response. The local authorities have been a huge support to us in managing that response. The number of arrivals daily presents a real challenge in terms of our being able to meet the needs of people on arrival. Continually since the end of March, the local authorities have stood up emergency rest centres for us to allow us to manage week by week.
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do appreciate that. Mr. McCarthy has answered my question.
Regarding the €280 million expenditure on temporary accommodation for Ukrainians, does the Department have a breakdown concerning lease payments to private landlords, fit-out and maintenance services and any other items?
Alan Dillon (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The temporary accommodation.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
On the Ukraine front, accommodation costs are of the order of €448 million. This is the overall cost for this year, including expenditure to date and projected expenditure to the year’s end. We are looking at €35 million for modular housing and €36 million to support the local authorities in standing up local rest centres. The cost associated with pledged accommodation is €18 million, and there are other costs related to facilities management, transport, etc.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being here today. When Members of the Houses speak of the areas Mr. McCarthy deals with, they often begin by saying they know the Department is dealing with a huge range of issues. We should acknowledge this in the first instance. Leaving aside the issues concerning birth, information and tracing, the redress scheme, IPAS, Ukraine and the core funding model for childcare, I would say that the remit of the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, alone would keep all the officials busy. There is a huge amount of work being done by the Department. I will come back to staffing in a moment.
There is a significant concentration on those people who find themselves without accommodation. Last weekend, the number was 47, I believe. However, we should not forget Ireland’s response. We have had 55,000 Ukrainian refugees, involving 11,500 school places. Some 43,000 people have been accommodated by the State and 43,000 medical cards have been issued. Ten thousand have found employment. While 47 is a very significant number, we have to put it in the context of Ireland’s huge response. Communities across Ireland have been very willing to respond.
Some local authorities are taking a very considerable burden and that may be because of traditional accommodations and so on. I want to touch on a few areas within that. For the two years that are referenced here, the staffing between the Department and agencies was approximately 5,000. Will staffing be at a similar level between agencies and the Department for 2022?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. McCarthy have an idea of that number?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I will confirm the precise number, but we are in and around the 500 mark at this point in time. Obviously, there are plans to grow that further. As part of the Ukraine response, we have 135 people in our Ukraine division at the moment, which is a combination of people who have been reassigned internally into that division, people who are with us on loan from other Departments on secondment and so on, and others who were commissioned into the division.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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In seeking accommodation, the Department needs to do a number of jobs. It needs to find a physical location and make a contractual financial arrangement. Another part of that is working with communities. As the Department has been forced to act so quickly, given the numbers, it is the one area where I know departmental officials feel they would like to do more. We need to have more staff available within the Department to work with communities to talk to them about concerns they may have, to address those concerns and to meet community leaders in advance of centres being opened. The absence of that creates the very thing that many people in this House do not what to see, which is communities rejecting people coming to such accommodation. Does the Department have plans to increase that capacity?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We do. We absolutely acknowledge and recognise the point, which is very well made. Particularly when talking about more medium-term developments in communities, the modular or off-site housing developments are a good example of that. We have put additional resources into our communications team to support us in that. We have some dedicated resources and a dedicated plan on how we engage with communities as part of that element of the programme in particular on which we are partnering with the Office of Public Works, OPW. In terms of those kinds of developments, it is possible to plan better for advanced consultation and communication and other-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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When a centre is opened and local representatives and local community leaders are not made aware of it, all it does is create a breeding ground for misinformation. It is important to bring people like that in and particularly community leaders who in many cases would be the first people organising coffee mornings, fundraising and all the things we saw at the very beginning of the war in Ukraine. Those are the very people who need to be included in the communications process.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Dillon asked about the breakdown in the lease payments to private landlords for fit-out and other associated costs. In many cases, some of the locations the Department has been forced to acquire are more akin to a warehouse environment than any kind of accommodation we would be aware of. What criteria does the Department use when looking at accommodation?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I wish to add to my earlier point. The community response forum has an important role in terms of that local community engagement. We notify it on a weekly basis of any planned openings.
In relation to standards for accommodation centres, we have a set of minimum standards and certainly fire safety, for example, is an absolute minimum requirement in terms of being able to-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Mr. McCarthy to reflect on that. Are there any centres operating at the moment without fire safety certificates?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously, there is a difference between a fire safety certificate for use as a commercial building and a fire safety certificate for use as a residential building.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Is Mr. McCarthy saying at this point either everywhere has a fire safety certificate or the Department is in the process of-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously, those arrangements are being made with individual property owners. This is not a hands-off relationship. The Department is providing the service on site. If something is not right, I would expect the Department, IPAS and so to be the ones driving the solution.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We would work with the local authorities in ensuring the local fire safety officers go in to look at premises for us. If we are procuring something or moving into an accommodation on a very emergency basis, if we are not satisfied that it necessarily meets fire safety standards, fire marshals, for example, would be deployed to ensure the safety of people, which is paramount.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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In the absence of a fire safety certificate for residential use, fire marshals would be-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I will come back in the second round on those other points.
I want to touch on the area of birth information and tracing. Many people in this House accused Government Deputies of sealing the records of mother and baby homes. However, this year thousands of people will be applying for birth information. It is a really important step for those people that they can have access to that birth information. Does Mr. McCarthy have any numbers yet on how many people have applied? What mechanisms has the Department used to make people aware of that facility?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
There has been a very extensive public information campaign here, in the UK and further overseas since the new service went live on 3 October. There has been a significant uptake in terms of early applications. Mr. Gloster might have the figure on the numbers of applications. I certainly saw a figure yesterday evening.
Mr. Bernard Gloster:
By the end of the first two weeks, which would have been last Friday week, there were just under 4,000 applications to the two statutory authorities, the Adoption Authority of Ireland and us in Tusla. There were 3,939 as of last Friday week, with 2,460 of those to Tusla. Those were a combination of requests for information, requests for tracing and requests for information and tracing.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North West, Fianna Fail)
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I think I am out of time.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I have four questions to get through. I thank the witnesses for their attendance. I think it is fair to say that Mr. McCarthy, Ms Baxter and their team at this moment in time have almost the toughest job in Ireland. I would like to frame my questions with that conditioning on it because they are in a perfect storm at the moment. I will get back to that because I believe in a way, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth has been isolated a bit from a national and Government perspective.
To help us in dealing with the issue of those for whom we quite rightly are providing protection at the moment through whichever strand - I note the distinction between both strands, it would be good if Mr. McCarthy could provide us with the Department's Min-MAC minutes from the date of the invasion of Ukraine and with a chronology of all Cabinet subcommittee meetings and attendees, any meetings of senior officials or other ancillary meetings in order that we can understand the volume of work, who is helping and who is not. That is my first question.
The Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is the lead Department on this, and it has a significant percentage of the overall role. It is a little strange because there are so many other strands to it. I accept that some Department has to be the lead Department, but there are significant roles for the Departments of Social Protection, Education, Health, and Housing, Local Government and Heritage. I could go on. Does Mr. McCarthy feel that everybody, across all those Departments and other bodies, is working at the same pace as his Department?
I know this is a loaded question, which is difficult for him to answer in a public domain. He might say something different privately. Does Mr. McCarthy feel that he has been let down by any Department as regards meeting some of the requirements the Department has as the lead Department to deliver on the volume of people coming here, in particular as regards getting accommodation and services?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is fine.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
If I could just say, there is a strong structure in place, under the leadership of the Cabinet committee on the Ukraine response and we have a senior officials' group chaired by the Taoiseach's Department. It meets weekly on this issue, brings everybody to the table and holds everybody to account in terms of their response on it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I will just dip into one example regarding accommodation. The Department will be moving to look at alternative large-scale accommodation and modular or rapid-build housing, whichever description Mr. McCarthy wants to use. A contract has been signed with Sisk to deliver this, and I understand five companies are subcontracting. Has a contract been signed with them? Why did it take from April, when the Minister visited the sites - I have a reply to a parliamentary question on the matter? Why has it taken so long? That is just one minute aspect of a range of Departments that should be co-operating with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The original Government decision was taken in April to embark on a modular programme and the first phase of that was site identification. The OPW and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage were involved in canvassing and identifying suitable sites for inclusion in the programme. There was a process of narrowing down candidate sites, which would have taken some time. If I am correct, the procurement process that led to the appointment of Sisk was probably completed in July.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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But no contracts have been signed since with the companies.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Are any modular homes being built today?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I do not think so. I must move on. As regards the process by which sites are selected for either strand, what pre-qualification filtration mechanism is used to ensure that all the ancillary education and health requirements are in place? I recently asked a parliamentary question about the smallest communities that have taken in those seeking protection under the temporary protection directive for Ukrainians or other refugees. The Department was not able to answer. I was just given a list by county. The reason I ask is there is an issue in my constituency regarding a small area called Puckaun, where 215 people live, and it is proposed to put in 56. I am not saying the issue is right or wrong, but it just appeared from nowhere. The school is full and there are no local facilities or transport. What is the process by which that happens? Is it the case that those who are contracted to provide these services find accommodation, buy it and present it as a solution or are providers given a checklist with minimum requirements they have to meet as regards access to facilities and services?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The original site selection process was led at the centre. The providers of the accommodation would not have had any role in that. Following on from the Government decision there would have been a process of engagement with the local authorities involving the OPW and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to identify candidate sites.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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This is not about modular housing. I am talking about-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes. I know about the modular housing.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is no problem.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
In general, in terms of the location of accommodation that we access, the context is that we are trying to manage capacity on a day-by-day basis. Where an accommodation provider makes an offer to us, we are not in a position to be fussy as to where it is located. I would be very frank about that because it is a day-to-day challenge to find shelter.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is very honest of Mr. McCarthy. I appreciate his honesty. Is it the case that those who are offering services find accommodation and say, "This is an option", and as we cannot be fussy, by and large, we have to try and go with it? Are no criteria set for them?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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This is not a trick question, but all I am asking is whether criteria are set out, which accepts that we need to find accommodation and that, by and large, we cannot be picky but we need to know that there is access to healthcare and education. Are criteria given to the companies that are contracted, who make significant profits?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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No, but companies make offers to the Department.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I appreciate that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I appreciate that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I started off my comments by saying Mr. McCarthy has the most difficult job in Ireland at the moment. I appreciate that. What I am getting from him is that there are some sort of criteria. This may not be the Department's fault, as it happened so quickly, but there has been some secrecy about the system or perhaps not enough communication. It is probably a resource issue. I want to be clear. Councillors and officials in local authorities on the ground know more or less what works. If there are some basic criteria, as Mr. McCarthy has outlined, when somebody comes with a location like the one I just mentioned in Puckaun, would the Department then consult with the local authority before signing a contract?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Is that before the Department would sign a contract?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Like in Cahersiveen.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, it was Cahersiveen. That is a good example. I have one final question. Are the criteria listed on a single page, and is it available? Could Mr. McCarthy provide us with a copy? I want to be supportive of him.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That would be great. I thank Mr. McCarthy very much.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I appreciate that. I thank Mr. McCarthy for his guidance and honesty.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I just want to follow on with questions on Ukrainian refugees. Did Mr. McCarthy say 135 people are in the unit, including people who have been seconded? None of us knew how long this war was going to last when it started last February. It was projected that there could be 200,000 Ukrainian refugees. What staffing complement was planned for the unit when the Department was set up as the lead Department? There are 135 staff currently.
We are at a little more than a quarter of what was projected as possible. What was the staffing complement?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It was put by the Tánaiste.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
-----of the number of Ukrainians. On the original planning for this, our initial response involved the international protection accommodation services staff, who had expertise and experience in procuring accommodation for international protection, turning their attention to the immediate response needs. We grew a structure that has now developed into a very distinct structure within the Department.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What did the Department estimate was required? I have very limited time.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does Mr. McCarthy have an estimate?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Just give me some estimate. I have very limited time. I really do not need a-----
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
At a very early stage, we sketched out what we saw as the tasks and functions required to be able to respond effectively to the crisis. That has grown and grown. The original estimate of our requirement would not have captured the entire set of needs because this has developed through a series of phases.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have asked a very specific question. Is there a response relating to what the Department projected was required? We know it has 135 staff. What did it project was going to be required?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Our early identification of requirements on this was very much around the immediate response. The initial identification of role requirements was probably in the order of about 60 but this develops and goes through various phases. To give the Deputy an example, as I mentioned, we have accommodated 42,000 people but the number of accommodation moves involved within that, where people come into rest centre accommodation, for example, and then move on into subsequent accommodation, amplifies the need as various streams of this develop. Reference was made to the communication requirement. We have kept our needs under constant review. It is not a simple case that we prescribed our needs at the outset.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have ten minutes and that very short question I asked Mr. McCarthy has taken a third of that time without getting a reply. Essentially, the Red Cross was relied on very heavily. In fact, there has been quite a lot of criticism about people not being followed up. That was to be where quite a sizable amount of accommodation would be provided and, even now, we are hearing from people. On the voluntary nature of that, was there a projection in respect of what was going to be required to support the likes of the Red Cross? Did the Department have any role in that?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The Red Cross launched its pledge programme at the very start of the crisis. It ran previous pledge programmes independently of us. We partnered with the Red Cross in the sense of talking to it about what support needs it required in order to be able to do that effectively. We provided various resources to it.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Can the Department give us a note on that please?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I do not want to pursue this any longer because it will take up all my time. Does the Department require the people who are offering accommodation to be tax compliant?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Were there any circumstances where that was not the case?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I might talk to Mr. McCarthy about that separately.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will move on to another topic, that of childcare and, in particular, the sustainability fund. Smaller providers, in particular, are people who are only involved in the early childhood care and education, ECCE, scheme. We hear that quite a lot of providers are teetering on the edge, especially the smaller providers who are uniquely involved in ECCE. On the Department's case management and its engagement with the county childcare committees, has it provided those committees with very specific information for those smaller providers to engage with the sustainability fund?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
There are case management supports under each of the county childcare committees. Those committees are all very familiar with what is involved and required in engaging with a provider that is identifying sustainability or viability issues. There is support available from the Department for those county childcare committees if there are any issues that require elaboration or clarification. A lot of information is available to them.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does Mr. McCarthy accept that there is a real issue here in relation to-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Why is it that people contact us every week saying they are on the edge and are likely to have to close down? It is a very important and vital service.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We are well aware of concerns being raised by smaller ECCE providers. There has been a lot of engagement with them around the issues they are raising. I will make the point that, as I said, there is a funding guarantee under the new funding model so no provider is less well off. Some 99% of providers are better off and many are significantly better off. That is all part of an objective of investing in quality in the sector and ensuring that staff in the sector are supported as professionals. An employment regulation order is in place now to allow that.
Small ECCE providers will benefit relatively less well from core funding or from the new funding model than larger, full-programme childcare providers, for the simple reason that their operations are smaller in terms of the number of hours offered. They are open for 15 hours a week for 38 weeks a year so by definition they will not benefit to the same extent from a funding model that provides-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will leave this issue because I will take it up by way of parliamentary questions. It is certainly nothing like what all of us are hearing from smaller providers. We do not want to end up with providers pulling out where there is a necessary service.
Last week, Mr. David Moloney, the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, informed us that it offered Tusla the opportunity to take over Benefacts. That Department was told that Benefacts did not meet the data needs of Tusla. How was that offer presented to Tusla? What was required of Tusla or what resources would it have had to provide? How did the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth consider the analysis of what Tusla's data needs were? The representatives might take us through how the offer was presented.
Mr. Bernard Gloster:
The position on Benefacts is that it had been providing a service of collating a lot of data relating to various community and voluntary sector providers - not just Tusla - that had lots of relationships with the State. As that moved on over the years and organisations started to develop their own different data sets, there was a question as to the continuity of that. It had been funded centrally. We certainly expressed a view on the positive dimensions that Benefacts continued to offer. If it was going to change, we were anxious to see whether there was a possibility that State agencies outside the previous Department of Public Expenditure and Reform model could look at retaining Benefacts. In fact, I corresponded in detail with my colleague, Mr. Paul Reid, the CEO of the HSE, at the time. I do not know whether it was a confluence of factors, such as Covid and other things, but it took some time. The HSE decided that it really was not within its ability to continue it. It was interested in taking over the Benefacts data but not necessarily continuing the Benefacts service. We would not have been able to sustain retaining Benefacts in our own right just for ourselves. The cost would have been in excess of €1 million. It was originally not set up as specific to Tusla at all.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I appreciate that. How many section 38 and sections 39 organisations does Tusla interact with?
Mr. Bernard Gloster:
Not to be pedantic, but Tusla's funded agencies fall under sections 56 to 58 of the Child and Family Agency Act 2013.
We are funding about 600 entities per year. Some of them are three or four entities in the one organisation but we count them as funded service level agreements.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Right. Okay. I thank Mr. Gloster.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. McCarthy tell us the projected total spend for 2022 on direct provision?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There was an extra supplementary budget. Was it 444?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There are 4,500 people in direct provision who have status, which means they can work. How many of them are working?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Would any of the team have those data?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Would most of those have been beneficiaries of the amnesty announced by the Minister for Justice? There seems to be quite a lot, very quickly.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Would the bulk of them be beneficiaries of the amnesty?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. That is fine. What is the longest time any person in direct provision has been waiting to have their case assessed and processed?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will put it another way. What is the longest time a person has been in direct provision without status?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know the Department has a lot on its plate but it would have a hand in this. What timeframe are we talking about? Are we talking about a few years?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are we talking about ten years?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
It could certainly be a number of years. I cannot it would be as many as ten years but it could certainly be a number of years. Part of the reason for that would not just simply be how long the initial processing of the application takes, but also that people who get a negative decision can appeal and they may be in the system awaiting an outcome of an appeal.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many appeals?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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One appeal and then?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Before the meeting is over, maybe one of the staff could come back with the longest period people are in direct provision.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. McCarthy mentioned there are 11,000 arrivals. Is that 11,000 arrivals into international protection already?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Before Covid-19, it was about 3,500.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It has multiplied by more than three. What is driving that?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We have commissioned a piece of work from the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, to try to understand it, particularly from the point of view of trying to understand whether it is a new, sustained level or whether there are one-off factors. The research is slightly inconclusive on that. There is no question that international movement of people is up overall. Other EU countries are experiencing significant increases of international protection movements as well.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Back in July or August, a change was made relating to when people arrive from another European country. Will Mr. McCarthy explain what that change was?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
There is an original Dublin declaration whereby if a person has already sought or has been granted status in another member state, his or her first port of call is the EU member state that has the responsibility and the requirement under the directive to meet that person's needs. While there has been secondary movement of people who have been within the system, part of the approach that was agreed by the Government in July was that we need to adhere more closely to the terms of that directive in regard to who is given-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Am I correct in my understanding of what Mr. McCarthy is saying that what was happening was that, under the directive, when a person arrived in a European country, that was where he or she had to seek status and seek asylum? Did the Dublin declaration mean that, if they were coming here, that was a secondary move, and while that was what was happening, that is what finished in July or August?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is much of the increase due to Brexit and the British Government's Rwanda policy?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
To give an answer to that would be for me to speculate. There is no question the policy environment in the UK has changed over recent years. It is undoubtedly a factor. How big a factor or much of a factor it is, we do not know. Unquestionably, we are an English-speaking country within the EU. If people are looking at their choices and their destination of choice is an English-speaking country in the EU, we are attractive from that point of view.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will Mr. McCarthy come back to me before the meeting is over on the figure for the longest period of time anyone without status in direct provision has been waiting to have their case assessed?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will move on to the accommodation end of things. In 2020, there was a protest at the Skellig Star Hotel in Kerry. Some of the residents went on hunger strike. Who was running that centre at the time? Who was it contracted to?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is that company running other direct provision centres?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Department closed any direct provision centres?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Twenty-four?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There was that quick fix.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How many would the Department have inspected in 2021?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the expected spend this year on the Ukrainian situation?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a forecast for next year?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will it be much beyond that figure?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
It will certainly be significantly more than €593 million. Our early estimates would be, at a minimum, more than 50% more. We have to take account of the fact that we are looking at a full year cost, but also the arrivals numbers are growing cumulatively. I have to place a caveat with very strong health warnings on any figures because it is entirely variable.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that. It is a fluid situation. We could be looking at a figure north of €1 billion.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Potentially but there are major health warnings because obviously it depends on further arrival numbers and how long people who are already here stay. There will be situations where we lose contracts and contracts expire. We may be renewing contracts on different terms and there will be other elements of this programme.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach said more than once that the Government is planning for up to 200,000. Did the Department plan for 200,000?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
There are two parts here. There is an overall Government response to the crisis and there is our role in providing the immediate temporary accommodation and meeting the immediate temporary accommodation needs of people on arrival. We have operated on the basis of agreed projections right through this process.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Was the figure of 200,000 not on Mr. McCarthy's radar as Secretary General?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know it is hard to estimate.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is Mr. McCarthy's response to the Ukrainian ambassador's comments over the weekend?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I suppose the ones that were relayed the most on news bulletins where she criticised the response.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thus far, the Department has not used holiday homes. A lot of holiday homes are lying vacant. Given the spirit of generosity among people, a lot of people would be prepared to forfeit their two- or three-week holiday or two holidays in it to possibly house a family. Why has that not been looked at?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Not on a wide scale.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am aware of that. What I am saying is the Department has not directly put a pitch out there offering to have them under licence or a lease arrangement.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We have also directly contracted holiday facilities - holiday camps and so on. As the Chairman will have seen, a further call for vacant homes, which would obviously include holiday homes as an important target, is under consideration. Proposals are under consideration by the Government. In the next phase of this, it is likely that we will see that featuring more strongly as part of the response.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I know Mr. McCarthy is getting an array of questions on the modular homes contracted by the Department. What is the lifespan of those modular homes? Hopefully, this war will be over soon. Families have been split up and are in an awful situation. The right thing to do is to try to help them for now but many may decide to go back. I think 80% of the people coming are women and children so many of them will have husbands, boyfriends, partners, mothers and fathers in Ukraine and will want to return so we could finish up having some extra homes. What is the lifespan of those homes?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I understand that it is about 60 years so these homes are of a very good standard. We are not talking about prefabs. These buildings are of a very good standard. They are constructed off site. The phrase "modular" may be somewhat misleading and may be misinterpreted in terms the quality of what is being provided.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Can I suggest that local public representatives and local authorities are consulted regarding where they are provided? I know Mr. McCarthy is involved with this because it came up at a meeting of Laois County Council but it would be useful for local councillors to have a briefing on it as well. In terms of medium and long-term planning, we may be able to find a follow-on use for many of these homes and people would see that as a benefit. We will take a short break and will resume in ten minutes.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Has a service level agreement been sought?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I will check that. I do not yet have that information. Can I provide information on the staff numbers, which was another outstanding query? At the end of 2021, we had 486 whole-time equivalents. As of 27 October, this figure is 581. We are projecting that by the end of 2022, it will be 606.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will get to the service level agreement in the next session.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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On the request by Deputy Verona Murphy regarding the service level agreement, has there been any progress?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Overall, the changes are minor enough. I can read out the full list of updates. There were names and addresses updated to reflect the change to the description of the Department and its functions. In sections 1(2)(e) and 1(3)(e), text was added on notifying Pobal of relevant EU regulations and the requirement on Pobal to ensure compliance with these. Obviously, we can provide copies of the previous service level agreement and the updated service level agreement, with changes tracked, if that is helpful.
On section 2(4), material was added on protected disclosures. That was on foot of legal advice provided by both the Department's legal adviser and Pobal's legal adviser to ensure the respective roles set out in the legislation would be properly captured within the service level agreement. There was a piece added to section 3(4) in relation to Pobal's requirement to return surplus funds to the Department. There was material updated on the GDPR Act because the previous service level agreement had been agreed before the Act had come into force. There was a line added in relation to the Department in agreement with Pobal having the capacity to add additional performance measurements should the need arise. The updated service level agreement reflects each of those changes.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank our guests for being here this morning. I have a broad question in respect of direct provision. The Government has publicly committed to ending direct provision by 2024.
Is that a target the Department thinks is achievable at this stage?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
There is a process under way of reviewing the implementation plan for the White Paper with the programme board that is in place to oversee that implementation. Obviously, the original context, as we discussed and described earlier, has changed enormously from when the White Paper and the implementation plan were developed. I do not see 2024 as being realistic in terms of the full implementation of the original plan that was developed on foot of the White Paper publication, simply because of the very significant upscale in numbers. The exercise at the moment is to identify the objectives of the White Paper that can be delivered upon and there is quite a bit of progress being made in that regard.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On the broad question, what year would Mr. McCarthy think is achievable?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The exercise that I referred to is ongoing at the moment. It is a partnership exercise involving members of the programme board who represent the NGO sector and residents of direct provision centres and, obviously, the relevant Departments. The intention is to agree revised plans that can be signed off on by the programme board and presented to the Government before the end of the year.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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At this point, is it fair to say that the Department does not have an end date?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The original end point, as Mr. McCarthy conceded, is not achievable and the Department does not have a new one, so there is no date at this point in time.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We accept that. On international protection accommodation, we have dealt with this issue with the Department of Justice previously and with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. I want to get an understanding of this. When the responsibility for the housing of those seeking international protection moved from the Department of Justice to the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, what came with that? Was it that the entire section was reassigned with the head of Department? How precisely did that look?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
There are standard arrangements that come into play when a transfer of functions is happening. One of the principles is that the staff who are involved in delivering the functions in the previous Department transfer with the function. There would have been an agreement on what are the roles and posts relevant to the functions, and those posts and those people would move with the function.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is there an assistant secretary or a principal officer?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Who is the assistant secretary?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There is a question I have been asking for a number of years and I have never got a satisfactory response, namely, what is the specific role of intermediaries? In the first instance, is that the term the Department uses? My understanding is that there are private companies which essentially source accommodation, whether that be hotels or private properties, on behalf of the Department for international protection housing. Is “intermediaries” the correct term or would the Department use a different term for people in that role?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How much have we paid them in, say, 2021 and what is the expected outturn in 2022?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am looking specifically for how much we pay for that type of work.
Ms Carol Baxter:
No. Generally, we prefer not to use intermediaries but where we use intermediaries, it is a global figure. They take the daily cost for the accommodation and they essentially pitch an end-to-end service to us. We do not have a separate cost, for instance, for a fee for intermediaries.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Generally, if a hotel contacts the Department directly and enters into an agreement, it gets paid a set rate per night, per individual. I presume that depends on the location, or is it the same in Dublin as on the west coast?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In an instance where an intermediary is used, they agree a price with the Department and they then pay the hotel out of what they get.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Department does not have an interaction in terms of what the hotel is actually getting paid.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I can never get my head around why we need an intermediary in some instances.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Some hotel owners do not watch the news. Is that it?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Department is essentially still paying the intermediary but it is paying on a per room, per night basis. Does Ms Baxter have a notion off the top of her head as to what the skim would be or what percentage of that would go to the intermediary?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Have we never thought to examine that to see if we are getting value for money?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If I am correct, we do not know precisely, or this committee does not know because the information is not available to us today, how much we are paying intermediaries and we do not know what proportion of what we are paying them is actually being retained by the intermediaries. Is that the evidence we are receiving?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am told that in some parts of the country, if I have accommodation and I want to offer it or utilise it for international protection housing, the only way I am going to get into that business, for want of a better term, is through an intermediary.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is the Department's preference. How low does that go? We have been talking about hotels. Are we also talking about guesthouses and single dwellings?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Would intermediaries take on single dwellings?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Baxter is not aware that any single dwellings would be used by intermediaries for such housing.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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By “complex”, does Ms Baxter mean an owner of multiple properties or would the houses have to be literally adjacent to each other?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is interesting. It would be very helpful if we could be supplied with the payments that have been made directly to intermediaries and kept by intermediaries. I might come back to this later.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I call Deputy Colm Burke.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for attending and for giving the information the committee is looking for.
In relation to the refugee issue and the allocation and identification of properties, could much more be done by the Department in its engagement with local authorities so that there would be more co-operation? In my dealings with local authorities on this matter, it seems the view is it is not their problem and they will not make a huge effort on it.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I am talking about the Ukraine response.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Local authorities have been absolutely engaged with, supportive of and intrinsic to the response on Ukraine. Every local authority has been absolutely front and centre in terms of its involvement and contribution to the response when it comes to Ukraine. I referenced earlier-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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In relation to the roll-out my understanding is that the Irish Red Cross received a significant number of submissions as far back as April and May and the local authorities were allocated the role of doing the inspections. My understanding is that a large number of people have still not been contacted, one way or the other, nine months later.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Everyone who was part of the original Irish Red Cross pledge process to the end of April, which is part of the exercise that we have partnered with the Irish Red Cross on, and with local authorities on in terms of activating those pledges, and put forward a pledge has been contacted.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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That is not true.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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That is not true.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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That is not true and I have clear evidence that it is not true. I have plenty of examples where it did not happen. I will give one example of a person who was contacted but was unable to take the call at the time because they were on another call. When the person rang back they reached an Army barracks which stated it knew nothing about the matter. The person then contacted the local authority, which contacted the Irish Red Cross. The Irish Red Cross stated that the person was not on the list and then added the person to the list. The local authority offered to inspect the property the following day but the person was not available. When the person telephoned the local authority six weeks later, the local authority stated it had already inspected the property when, in fact, it had not. Nine months on, the local authority has not come back again since. That is only one example that I have. I do not believe there is co-operation on this. This needs to be worked on. I am not blaming the Department but pointing out that there seems to be a lack of co-ordination and no one person seems to be taking charge of this issue.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The pledge process overall has been complex. When the Irish Red Cross set out to embark on it at the earlier stage of the crisis, it probably did so on the basis of previous pledge programme responses and its experience with those. Obviously, however, this has been way in excess of anything that had gone before in terms of the scale of what was involved. As I referenced earlier, we had to support the Irish Red Cross in terms of additional resourcing to assist it in managing those early phases. More particularly, the role of the local authorities came into play by way of activating and trying to activate those pledges on the ground, given the scale of what was involved. It is a very intensive process.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Can Mr. McCarthy give the number of properties to which people were allocated since the local authorities got involved?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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How many people have been allocated accommodation since the local authorities became involved?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I would have to look back to see what is the breakdown between pre and post local authority involvement. Certainly, the pace at which people have moved into pledged accommodation has picked up since the local authorities have become involved. One of the things we have been able to do through their involvement is to target rest centres or temporary accommodation - the emergency accommodation in which Ukrainians have been placed on arrival - and to try to encourage, in an intensive and targeted way, people in those centres to take offers of pledged accommodation. One of the challenges we realised we were up against early on in the process was that people who were in fully-serviced hotel accommodation were not interested in taking up pledged accommodation. There are additional costs involved, for example, in living independently.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I want to move on to a different issue, namely, youth justice and the Oberstown children detention campus and expenditure on that. My understanding is that approximately €26 million was allocated to that project. Has it been completed and are the full costings available?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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How many people are accommodated there?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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What is the total number of staff working in the campus?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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There are 265 staff and the centre has accommodation for 46 people.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I fully understand that much of this is not easy. In relation to people who go through the facility, has there ever been an assessment of the people who have left? For example, as regards those who left five years ago, has a full assessment been done of whether the facility was of benefit to them in real terms? We are talking about over 260 staff. This matter was dealt with in the committee previously. The budget for running the facility in 2020 or 2021 was €24 million. A small number of people are being looked after. What kind of results are we getting, say, five years later? Has anyone done any research on whether there is a better way of managing this facility?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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When are the results of that research expected?
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Why wait? If we are spending that kind of money and we have that number of staff employed, why will it take until 2024 to come back with the results?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
It is the nature of the research. Longitudinal research, by definition, takes time because it involves tracking the progress of people over time. People who have volunteered to participate in the study would be participating on an ongoing basis and the ultimate research will reflect their experience, development and progression in the years after their time on the campus.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I know the Cork Life Centre does not come under the remit of the Department. It provides young people who have dropped out of school with a structured education. The funding provided for it is under €200,000 for 50 children. In the case of Oberstown, €24 million is being spent on 46 children. Do we need to look at a better way of approaching this in a more structured way? I was involved in one of these facilities for a long number of years. I have raised this matter at the committee previously. We had up to 50 young people in with us at any one time. Most of them were referred to us by the Garda. They had dropped out of school, had become involved in minor incidents and the Garda stepped in before they got into major difficulty. Many of the facilities providing this kind support developed when people got together and set them up rather than one Department being involved. Do we now need to look at that and have a more structured way of dealing with it?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
An awful lot is happening in terms of early intervention supports and ongoing supports for vulnerable children who, unfortunately, by definition are those who are more likely to find themselves detained or remanded in Oberstown. In respect of the cost of Oberstown itself, these are obviously children with very complex needs in many cases.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I accept that.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
A highly intensive and resource-intensive model of support is provided in order to be able to give them the best chance of rehabilitation and progression from their time there. The entire system is predicated on our objective of ensuring children do not end up in facilities, such as residential care facilities or detention centres of the kind the Deputy was talking about.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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I am saying that many of the support mechanisms that are out there need funding, in particular the one with which I was involved in Blackpool in Cork. It was set up by a number of people voluntarily and they eventually got State funding. To this day, it provides support to approximately 50 people.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
There are an awful lot of examples of really positive community and voluntary-led activities that are supported by the State through Tusla. My colleague, Mr. Gloster, might want to say something more on that. It is, however, a really important part of our capacity as a society to support these children and ensure that as communities, we are putting in place the supports and structures that can catch, support and address need on the ground.
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Is it not the case that young people are dropping out of the educational system and getting into difficulties in particular areas? Do we need to step in at a faster rate rather than waiting for someone else on the ground to do it? One of the problems arising for many young people is that it is too late before anyone steps in.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Yes, and the fact that the educational welfare service is now located with Tusla allows us, as a system, to identify the risks in terms of those children who are most vulnerable to falling off the tracks and to ensure plans are in place to support them and address their needs. If it is okay, I will ask Mr. Gloster to come in on this point. I am sure he is anxious to add to what I have said.
Mr. Bernard Gloster:
The points made by the Secretary General and the Deputy are not a million miles apart. The Deputy gave the example of the Cork Life Centre, which is a fantastic service. There are so many examples of that around the country. The question is why that comes from within communities themselves as opposed to appearing like a proactive State intervention. Very often, State intervention at that level is much better as a funded support to community and voluntary organisations. They find a greater level of acceptance-----
Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The problem with the Cork Life Centre is that the centre is under the education and training board, ETB. It is not getting funding and may very well close. We have 50 children. It now technically comes under the Department in the sense that we have vulnerable young people who are going to be out there without any support mechanisms and we are getting less than €200,000 per annum. Each child in Oberstown costs more than €500,000 per annum whereas we are supporting 50 children for €200,000. With another bit of money, we could keep going.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will make a suggestion. I take the Deputy's point and it is well made. It is a very important local issue whereby 50 children are being supported. The Deputy and Mr. Gloster might have a follow-up engagement around the funding for that centre in Cork, because it is important. That might be the best approach. Is the Deputy happy enough with that?
Mr. Bernard Gloster:
To move away from the Cork piece, I will make the point that nationally, as the Deputy said, the cost of a service like Oberstown equally impacts the cost of our own special care services. It is, unfortunately, that 80:20 position where the smaller number with very high immediate intensive needs in the most serious crisis situations utilises the greater share of the resources. I would not dispute that at all. It is a constant challenge.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is also residential. Mr. Gloster might follow up with the Deputy after the meeting.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Deputy O'Connor has ten minutes.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the officials before the Committee of Public Accounts. I want to open with expenditure for foster care in Ireland. In this current budget, we saw a failure from the Department's side to negotiate an additional allocation of funding. I want to get an overall profile of how much has been spent on the foster care allowance and the individual breakdown, essentially just to develop an understanding of why that was not addressed in this budget. I will open with that question.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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How many people does that support? I just want to get a sense of the information.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the payment support that goes to foster parents in this country, I understand the issue is that this has not been changed since the mid-2000s.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. It is a concern that has not been addressed when we are looking at the situation around inflation,
Mr. Bernard Gloster:
Sure. In that context, we are on record as saying the allowance that was set at that period has not kept step with time and there is a requirement for it to be reviewed. To be fair, we have much agreement with the Minister and the Department around working through that as part of an overall approach to improving foster care. The allowance is €352 per week per child over the age of 12 and €325 per week per child under the age of 12.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I am curious about this. It is one of those few payments that really has been untouched over such a long space of time. Is there a rationale behind that?
Mr. Bernard Gloster:
I do not think so particularly other than when it was set at the time, it was set as a specific maintenance support. It was set against two parameters of the State that made it different. One is that it is not counted as income for Revenue under any purpose of the legislation in Ireland for income. The other is that it is not means assessable under the Social Welfare Consolidation Act or any other payment. Is there a rationale after that? We can take the economic downturn and the succession of other demands and issues. There have been additional and enhanced payments made on top of it for special needs but I am very much on the public record as saying they are not consistent in any way. We have a very clear plan and a very significant support with foster carers to correct many of those in 2023.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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We hear that loud and clear. I thank Mr. Gloster for the information; it is very helpful.
The next issue I wish to raise is much more serious. The State is under enormous pressure around dealing with the war in Ukraine and also around the current ongoing situation with inbound migration. It is something that is extremely difficult for the Government to manage. Of course, it falls under the auspices of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. All of us are conscious of trying to identify the challenges but also to identify what could be done better from the perspective of developing an understanding for the public around how this is being managed.
I will outline the scenario to Mr. McCarthy and I want him to reply. Does he have concerns about the direction of travel around the acquisition of hotels around the country being purchased for potential operation as direct provision centres in the long run, or around expansion into the nursing home sector where small nursing homes that are closing down may be turned into direct provision centres? I want to ask about the future of this area. What is the Department's position on this at the moment? It has been put under huge burden and stress by the war in Ukraine, but there are also additional challenges as a consequence of what happened with policy changes by the United Kingdom Government. I will ask Mr. McCarthy that to start with.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Clearly, major pressure is coming on the system as a whole. We are at the front end of it in terms of the accommodation pressures. However, there are wider service pressures in terms of managing and responding to all the needs of people on arrival. Obviously, people in the international protection system can have very particular needs. Much work has been put into developing good systems to ensure those needs are met in a timely way. Those processes come under strain when the numbers accelerate, as we have seen over the course of this year.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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We are obviously having an in-depth look at 2021 in addition to the ongoing circumstances at the moment. In 2021, prior to the war in Ukraine, was there a projected increase in this area from the Department? Was it expecting a huge increase in the amount of inbound migration when it came to people who would be accessing the direct provision system in Ireland?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Not anything like we have seen and experienced.
There may have been expectation of some catch-up, given there were restrictions on international travel during the Covid period that had an impact on numbers at the time. There may have been an expectation of some element of increase but our overall yearly average was on the basis of 3,500 over a number of years. Our Estimate this year was based on a projected arrival rate of 4,500, which would have reflected the expectation of some level of catch-up but certainly nothing like what we have seen.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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There has been considerable discussion about targets or putting caps and limits in place. I am not expressing a view but I am trying to get a better insight for the public in this area. Is the Department reaching a tipping point when it comes to what it will be able to handle? I hear, off the record, from people who are working with local authorities that they are at breaking point when it comes to trying to handle the refugee situation. Any of us who have any decency would accept that the most appalling, devastating and sad of circumstances have caused this to happen. However, we have to ask ourselves the question, when we are to approach numbers in excess of 70,000 by the end of the year, whether this direction of travel is wise when it comes to have cohesion, response and community buy-in from the public.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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We would want to be very careful because I have very limited time. I am sure he can see the clock behind me winding down. I asked a very clear question. Does Mr. McCarthy have concerns about the rate the numbers are growing? I know we have international obligations. I do not think any of us in elected office, to be fair to us, is trying to step away from those obligations but policymakers and elected representatives need to get a better insight as to the limit. Where does this situation get to a breaking point at which the State will not be able to manage it? We saw that we got quite close to that point last weekend.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. McCarthy is not answering my question. He is either concerned or he is not. I would prefer to get an answer from him.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. This is going-----
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think-----
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I ask that the Deputy allow me to elaborate. Our objective is to add capacity through as many means as possible and in a effective and timely a way as possible to be able to meet the demand. However, I have concerns about our capacity to respond on time to the pressure that materialises. We have seen shortfalls in our accommodation offering, at a particular point in time, at various stages. From late March, we have had to rely on the support of local authorities on a number of occasions to stand up emergency rest centres to allow us to cope with surges in numbers. Clearly, there is-----
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I am very sorry-----
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of the time and I have to ask other questions.
I wish to develop an understanding of the acquisition of property. I am from Youghal and I am sure the Deputy is aware that the former Quality Hotel in Redbarn was acquired by a private company which is now providing one of the largest centres in the country, outside of Citywest in Dublin, if not the largest. I wish to understand how buildings such as that were identified by operators for purchasing. How did the communication work between the Department and those operators when it came to identifying what was appropriate? That is important for all of us because we are now looking at a situation where small nursing homes may wish to close down and move into this area. It will become much more common, to judge by recent commentary in the media. The public needs to understand how this works. It is essentially important that people have an understanding of what is going on because politicians such as me, who are in government, have been kept completely in the dark about this, which has made it impossible for us to communicate with our constituents about it. People have considerable concerns.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We put out a number of expressions of interest for accommodation providers to assist us in meeting the needs of the Ukraine response. We do not have discussions with individuals about their own acquisition plans or what they are intending to do with regard to acquiring properties for the purpose of pitching to us. However, when somebody makes a property or accommodation offer to us with regard to property that is available for Ukrainian accommodation, if it meets our requirements and standards, we will consider and take that accommodation in order to enable us to-----
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I have a final question.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are over time. I will let Deputy O'Connor back in for a second round.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I will just follow up on some issues. I asked Mr. McCarthy about the service level agreement. The reason I asked him was that there were recommendations made that the new service level agreement be put in place and that there would be measures such as indications in the service level agreement to allow us to see what grants were being targeted. I did not hear the Mr. McCarthy say anything like that. What key performance indicators, KPIs, have been set in the individual contracts? How will they be measured? I want the service level agreement to see whether recommendations are being taken up or whether we are just wasting our time here.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Have they been reviewed?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does the review take place on renewal of a service level agreement?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
It takes place on renewal of a performance delivery agreement. If we are asking Pobal to deliver a programme of activity for us, a performance delivery agreement is put in place at the outset, which is very clear on the metrics and expectations for delivery; how outcomes will be measured-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How are they measured?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Has that happened?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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How often do we see these performance agreements inspected?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Have any problems shown up?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Are any issues arising?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Are those issues rectified? Mr. McCarthy should remember that he chairs those meetings.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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As Secretary General, is Mr. McCarthy happy that they are being carried out?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is Mr. McCarthy happy that any issues that have arisen have been resolved?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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When it comes to early childhood care and education, ECCE, funding, what is the recurring cost per child for the ECCE programme?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Yes, I am.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There must be some confusion. It was €2,300 in 2018.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I apologise. What is the Secretary General's figure for?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Correct.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am looking for the overall funding for the year for the programme.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What does the figure of €69 relate to?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I presume it is for capitation.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Does Dr. Brooks have the figure for the year?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I would have thought this would be the freshest thing in Dr. Brooks's mind giving the interaction we are getting from providers.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I have the figure broken down for 2018 as €2,300 per child. I am looking for the equivalent figure for 2022.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The figure is €2,622 per child.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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All right. What about the other programmes? It was €1,600 for other programmes, so which other programmes, or what would the figure be? It just says "other programmes" here. Is there an average for anything outside of the ECCE?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Okay.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Okay, so that is where Dr. Brooks is getting the €2,622 per year.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Dr. Brooks just gave me €2,622.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, I thank the Deputy.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Just one other question Chair.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Briefly.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is to Mr. McCarthy and probably Ms Baxter. Do they consider the intermediary system value for money, or how do they measure that?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We operate to pricing guidelines in respect of all accommodation we secure. We are satisfied overall any accommodation we procure meets our value-for-money needs in overall terms. Obviously there is an an issue that we are not in a particularly competitive market when it comes to providing accommodation and that must be said, in the sense that-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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If somebody wished to provide modular homes how do they contact the Department?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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A provider. Who do they contact?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Outside the box, has there been any provision sought based on what other countries are doing? We are an island. In other countries, such as our nearest neighbour Scotland, cruise liners have been provided. We have a major city here, which we are talking all day about, where we need to provide services. People coming from the Ukraine are used to larger city environments. Has there been any thought towards that?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Yes. We have met our Scottish counterparts at both ministerial and official level. We are in continuing contact with EU networks through our permanent representative and through the Department of Foreign Affairs, so we are well aware of the position in other EU member states, and obviously non-EU ones in the case of Scotland, and the approaches being taken.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The Department has considered it.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Grand. I just want to qualify that, with the suggestion being that in Scotland the Ukrainian population and other refugees have said they have much more interaction on cruise liners because they have recreational areas. In hotels and anything other than a reception and integration centre, they have nowhere to congregate or have access to play areas.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Catherine Murphy is next.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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On the capacity, the officials say they are dealing with local authorities. I will take two local authorities. Kerry has been in the news recently and there are a lot of good things happening there. If we look at Kerry and Meath, there are twice as many staff in Kerry as in Meath and there are 100,000 more people in Meath. There are historical reasons the staffing ratios are like that and I hope it will change at some point but there is not the same capacity around the country. Some of the local authorities are quite threadbare when it comes to staff numbers. When the officials talk about the local authorities, has there been any capacity review on the local authorities' ability to perform the function the Department is now requiring? I think this is the second time it has been announced.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
Obviously local authority staffing in the round is a matter for the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage as the parent Department. On what they are doing and supporting us on, we have, for example, approved integration officers for each of the local authorities and we are in discussions with them at the moment around those roles. We have provided other forms of support with what we have asked local authorities to do.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is money being provided to the local authorities to employ specific staff in addition to those who are there?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We have said to them that if they require additional supports with, for example, their role in activating pledged accommodation, we are happy to fund those. We recognise their role in this crisis response is one of many local authorities are playing and they are under pressure on many fronts but we are heavily reliant on them on this front, as has been said. We have told them we are happy to consider whatever supports they require to assist us in helping deliver on this.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The officials may not be able to give this now. The functions in the Department are very different than they were straight after the general election. There has been much more activity in childcare, for example, for which I am thankful. The Department has had a very busy time with the mother and baby homes and then there has been the transfer of the international protection aspect from the Department of Justice. We need to get an overview of Mr. McCarthy's staffing and how that breaks down because presumably it is compartmentalised within the Department. Did the full international protection unit transfer over from Justice? Was there a requirement for additional staff that were not provided? What was the profile of that?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I cannot confirm how many staff transferred but we can check back on that and let the Deputy know. As I said earlier, a standard arrangement comes into play post the reconfiguration of Departments. The Departments agree an identification of what the functions are, what the appropriate staffing levels and posts in respect of those functions are, and they transfer.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Will Mr. McCarthy give us a note on what happened-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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-----from the point where the programme for Government was agreed, the functions and how they have been scaled up.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We need to get an overview of this. I can completely understand that Mr. McCarthy will not say there is not complete - that this is not an all-of-Government approach. It certainly does not look like an all-of-Government approach given the scale of what is being put on the shoulders of this Department. We have to satisfy ourselves by looking at the evidence of the staffing numbers. Will Mr. McCarthy let us know what he sought with respect to an increased complement of staff and what he got-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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-----and the number expected to be recruited, so we can satisfy ourselves on that score?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Ukraine war did not start until February. October of last year was very different. It may well have been that there were more to come in to work on international protection, for example, but we do not know that and it is what we have to see.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How many staff does Mr. McCarthy reckon he needs?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I will confirm the number we have in our international protection division. We know already that in further implementation of objectives around the White Paper process, thinking through what a future international protection model needs to look like, and the resourcing of that, there will be additional staffing requirements and we are identifying those. The immediate focus is on our need to meet the demand presenting day by day. We have had to reassign staff into the international protection division to support it on that.
Regarding the Ukraine response in particular, we have assigned 135 staff to a division that did not exist on 26 February. That was a significant operation in its own right. Along with the Ukraine division and its staff, the central functions of the Department are coming under strain as a result of the expansion of activity. For example, the volume of payments is having a major impact. The demands on our HR and ICT teams are impacted. There is no question that there is a-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Department sounds overloaded.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Department has to be overloaded.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The specific question was on whether the increase required to keep abreast of what was happening was 10%, 20% or 30%. We want an idea of what is being sought.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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An increase of approximately 15% or 20%.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Just roughly.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
There is expanded activity. We also do not know the trajectory of the Ukraine response over the coming 12 months, but we can expect that there will be significant continuing demands. The fact that there is a population of approximately 42,000 being accommodated by us, as well as the other Ukrainian community that is not directly accommodated by us, gives rise to a set of needs that has to be assessed across the Government. While we are at the front end in terms of the immediate accommodation response, our role is part of a strong all-of-government response. For example, the Department of Housing, Heritage and Local Government is a strong partner of ours in addressing medium- and long-term accommodation requirements.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to return to the issue of intermediaries and their role in housing people seeking international protection. How many intermediaries does the Department have engagements with currently?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am coming to that. This is just so that we can get a picture. How many properties – hotels, guest houses and individual dwellings – are involved?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses do not know the answer. How many individuals are accommodated through arrangements that have been facilitated by intermediaries?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I would have thought-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of how intermediaries work, is it the case that the Department says it needs X number of people to be accommodated and asks the intermediaries to source accommodation or do the intermediaries approach the Department and tell it that they can accommodate a certain number of people? Alternatively, has the Department simply told the intermediaries to go for it, to get the Department everything they can and to then come back to it? Is the actual situation more akin to the third option?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
To be fair, there is a reality. I referenced the request for tenders that was published in January. Some initial contracts have been placed on foot of that. What is coming through formal procurement processes for us is nowhere near adequate to meet our needs. We have published calls for expressions of interest and we are out shaking the trees.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Department has spoken to the intermediaries. Are only existing intermediaries being engaged with or could the Chairman and I decide to become intermediaries and get a slice of the action?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking about intermediaries. I want to get a sense of that situation.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
-----we are open to offers of accommodation and we explore all offers that come to us from whatever source. Obviously, we must be satisfied that they are legitimate sources and that someone offering accommodation is in a position to provide it. There could be issues of ownership, for example.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I presume that everyone the Department contracts with must have a tax clearance certificate.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Must the intermediary have a tax clearance certificate?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Department is paying the intermediary, who is paying the property owner.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the property owner in that instance have to have a tax clearance certificate in the same way as anyone who is dealing with the Department directly would?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Baxter, we can be blunt. In this instance, the Department is not making the payment directly to the property owner. Is that not the case? The Department is paying the intermediary.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The intermediary has to be tax compliant. Does the property owner that the intermediary is engaging have to be tax compliant? Does the Department see it as its job to ensure that the property owner is tax compliant?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Lord God almighty. Chair, would you intervene?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will allow-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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In all my born days-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is crystal clear from the witnesses' responses that, in this instance, the property owner does not have to present a tax clearance certificate. Is that not correct?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There are three people involved. In most instances, the Department deals with a property owner and has to ensure that everything is correct, including that there is a tax clearance certificate. In other instances, the Department is using an intermediary or an intermediary has approached it. The Department has to ensure that the intermediary is tax compliant. Is that correct?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In this instance, the person invoicing the Department is the intermediary and the person who is invoicing the intermediary is the property owner. For the fifteenth time, I will ask-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----whether that property owner has to be tax compliant.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I asked a simple question.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The answer is "No" and the property owner does not need to be tax compliant. I do not know why three minutes of my time had to be wasted without that simple answer being given.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Secretary General want me to go and investigate?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I do not know whether there is any suspicion. I asked what I thought was a simple yes-no question.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy, hold on a second. Let us be clear. What I take from the answers given by the Secretary General and Ms Baxter is that it is only the person to whom the payment is being made who is checked for tax compliance. If I am the intermediary, fixer or whatever it is called and I have arranged two local hotels to provide this service, there is no check on them. Is that the case? This is frustrating for the Deputy.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The answer is "No". There is no check. I know that this is frustrating for Deputy Carthy.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have one more question.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Briefly.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Are the current contracts with intermediaries for fixed terms? I presume that they are not and that there is flexibility instead, given that the accommodation might be needed for shorter or longer terms.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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For a set time.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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On average, what is that time?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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An intermediary will enter into a contract with the aforementioned property owner for the same period. If one of those property owners contacts the Department after the three or six months are up and says that it is involved with an intermediary - we assume the intermediary is taking a portion of the payment but the Department does not know what that figure is - but is willing to give the Department the same deal it has with the intermediary, I assume the Department would jump at that offer, given that it would centralise the operation. Is that the case?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I take it that it is the case across all of the accommodation being provided through intermediaries that, if the property owners decided they wanted to deal with the Department directly, the Department would take them up on that offer.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If they have already entered into a contract with an intermediary-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We are told that the contracts are for three to six months-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They are short-term contracts.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----so it will not be too long before that becomes an option for them.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Feeding into what Deputy Carthy has just raised, this is all about the public's confidence in this system, which involves extremely large sums of public money. The idea that the owners of centres that are hosting refugees and operating direct provision services are not required to provide a tax clearance certificate when in some cases they are in receipt of millions of euros of taxpayers' money is utterly unacceptable and needs to be dealt with immediately. That is also an issue for Revenue, in all fairness. I just wanted to say that in response.
I want, in the limited time available, to get a better understanding. When it comes to the projections of where this is going, I have considerable concerns about how it is being handled. What appears to be the case, and tell me if I am wrong, is that hotels and nursing homes across the country will be turned into centres for direct provision if this is not managed properly. Can that be ruled out? Are there projections available in that regard? Has there been communication to the Cabinet subcommittee on that issue?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I am talking about nursing homes that are closing down because there has been a lot of discussion about that.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. McCarthy have that figure available?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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How many are involved?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
To be clear, these are former nursing homes. We are obviously interested in securing accommodation that can suit our needs to expand our capacity. We are, however, equally concerned not to disrupt or negatively impact other sectors. We are conscious, for example, of the impact of the scale of what is involved on the hospitality sector. There are questions around how sustainable that will be in the long run and we are conscious of those questions. Those are considerations of which the Government is well aware and conscious in respect of our longer-term response. That is why we are looking to pursue as many self-catering, stand-alone facilities as we can. Our modular homes-----
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I am going to stop-----
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Please stop. I am sorry. I have a time limit. I do not like what Mr. McCarthy is doing there. Is there a policy to ensure a regional balance of centres so that each geographical area has an even balance in respect of what is projected to be required for the next six months?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We keep a close watch on the overall balance. We have good real-time data mapped by a geographic information system, GIS. Those data tell us where people are located and they are shared across government to allow people to build an understanding of the associated service impacts and requirements. We are aware of that. We are conscious of the potential impact on areas. We have, for example, deliberately not contracted further in an area where we feel the level of pressure on services may become too great. It comes back to the ongoing engagement we have with local authorities to get their sense of where the pressure points might be. It is something of which we are aware.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. McCarthy has spoken about being conscious of, and trying to avoid, the interruption on other sectors. I spoke at the start about public cohesion and buy-in, which is essential for this to work. The consequences of it not working are very serous for the political system and our democracy. The people of this country have been extraordinarily generous and have worked diligently in many cases to assist. That has happened at a local authority level. Much work has been done within the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.
I am familiar with Youghal in my local area and will use it as an example. The town has lost over 70% of the available tourist bed capacity in its local hotels. The town has been described by the Government for years as being entirely reliant on the tourist industry. Tourism is considered the future of the town. In locations such as Youghal and other rural, coastal towns in Ireland, hotels have been not only given contracts but purchased by direct provision centre operators. Does Mr. McCarthy not see the possibility of that not ending well in respect of public support? Quite frankly, given the direction of travel over the coming months, I do not understand how we will be able to manage this.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I did not ask Mr. McCarthy about that topic in my question.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. McCarthy-----
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Is the cost €150 per night per room? What is the rate at the moment?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. McCarthy explain? Chair, this is of the utmost importance. I am sorry.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We are over time. Perhaps Mr. McCarthy will give the price range per bed.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Baxter is welcome to answer. I would be delighted if she answered.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Give her a chance.
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a grant on top of that for food and meals?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Is it capped at €70 per night?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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What is the maximum?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Baxter can surely give me the maximum.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the highest?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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That is unacceptable. The witnesses when coming before the committee can surely show enough respect for us to answer that question. What is the maximum rate per night that the Department is paying at the moment?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Can the witnesses give me a high estimate?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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May I make a suggestion? Ms Baxter said the average is €70. I know what the Deputy is pursuing. He is trying to get the highest rate. Can I ask the witnesses to try to come back with that figure before the meeting ends?
James O'Connor (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Carthy pursed the issue of the intermediaries to its end in trying to get to a position. We know exactly what the position is in that regard. The intermediary must be tax compliant. However, if an intermediary is contracting a premises, the operator of the premises may or may not be tax compliant. We hope everyone is tax compliant. I ask that our guests would put together a register of those. Particularly if hotels and large venues are providing a range of services and there is a lot of State money involved, we want them to be tax compliant. I ask for that reconciliation to be done. This is not an argument. The right thing is being done. I understand that much of this had to happen quickly. I get that. People had to move fast and everybody was under a lot of pressure. However, as things now start to bed in, I would ask for that check to be done. Where an intermediary is perhaps arranging a number of venues, can we ensure those venues and their owners are tax compliant? I ask Mr. McCarthy and Ms Baxter whether that can be done. Let us imagine that Deputy Carthy is an intermediary and I own a hotel. Deputy Carthy has arranged to provide services for €500,000 for the year and I am getting €400,000. The intermediaries must get a profit margin because I presume they are registered with the Companies Registration Office. Are they sole traders? What are they?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. An intermediary is likely getting 5%, 10%, 15% or more. Is there a concern that the slice of State money to provide services that they are taking would drop the standards in the facilities? If, for example, the €500,000 is to provide services to a certain number of people and 10% or 20% of that is being taken by an intermediary, could it lead to a drop in the quality of services?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is McCarthy sure this is not dropping the standards?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is a lot of funding going into this. People fleeing war is a desperate situation. Do we have any EU support in terms of funding?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Are there figures for what is being sought?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. McCarthy might come back to us with that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We discussed modular homes. There are a number of vacant Army barracks around the country. I understand that the quarters in a lot of the buildings may not be suitable and some of them may be in a derelict state. Is there serious work being done to see if they can be utilised as sites for modular homes or other types of accommodation?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We have regular engagement with the Defence Forces. We meet the Defence Forces on a weekly basis because they stood up the Gormanston campus for us earlier this year and have provided other supports around logistics, planning and so on. They have recently signalled that three camps could be made available to us. We are already using the one in Ballymullen in Kerry for temporary tented accommodation and they have also identified Mullingar and Kilbride.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Would that be for modular housing?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
In the case of Mullingar we intend to put Portakabins in place on the site. That is a shorter term, more emergency response because Gormanston is no longer in operation. In the case of Kilbride, the existing facilities on the site would be in part refurbished but we hope we can move into part of it more immediately.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I think there are five or six vacant camps around the State. I am not sure of the figure but maybe that would be-----
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We have a full picture from the Defence Forces and the Department of Defence as to what facilities may or may not be available. There are a number of former Army barracks that are no longer in the ownership of the Defence Forces, which may confuse people. Some of them are in community ownership and in community use or other use.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I have a couple of questions about procurement. There was €91 million in the 2021 accounts that was non-compliant. One company, Aramark, has substantial contracts with the Department to provide food for Ukrainians. Is that correct?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. McCarthy will be aware that the company has a fairly controversial record.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Has there been no criticism of the services provided in Clare, Westmeath or Cork?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Was there a series of complaints from those three locations?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will preface this by saying I know quick action was required. In the awarding of contracts, does the Department check the compliance of these contractors with labour laws, the minimum wage, sectoral pay agreements and proper terms and conditions? Are checks done on the quality of the contracts with regard to workers' rights and checking that they are getting whatever level of pay they should be getting under sectoral pay agreements, or the minimum wage for those who are not covered by those, as well as holiday entitlements?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Both accommodation and food providers.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Aramark has been found to be in breach of such laws in other countries in the past. There have been serious breaches in America. I am not singling out that company but asking about all companies providing services. It has been outlined that a substantial amount of State money, or taxpayers' money, is going into it. It is important that the workers working for those companies have the basics when it comes to terms and conditions.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I would just confirm, seeing as the Chairman has named the company, that there is no evidence of any shortfalls or shortcomings on that front. Obviously, this is an international operation. There may have been issues in other parts of the company's global operations but we have found it to be very good and solid.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What checks are done on the quality of the food?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Who does the inspections?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
We retain a company, QTS, to conduct inspections on our behalf and IPAS officials would also visit centres and conduct inspections. There is an intention that HIQA will become involved from later this year on a pilot basis in taking over the inspection function for international protection centres. We obviously do not have the same inspection regime for emergency accommodation. Hospitality providers that are providing emergency accommodation would not be subject to that formal inspection regime but we have an open ticketing system where residents or others can identify any concerns they have. If concerns are raised, and concerns or complaints are raised from time to time, we have that facility to send in inspectors and follow up on those complaints and we have done that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Department managed to ascertain the longest time people have been in direct provision without status?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Ms Baxter to come back to us with the up-to-date figure, as well as the number of people who have been in direct provision for over five years. There was also a service level agreement involved, so I ask for a copy of that.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I wanted to come back to what we were talking about with regard to the Oberstown campus. This does not relate to Oberstown but it is about child protection and how we ascertain what child protection is. We think of child protection as the child being in danger from another person or another child. Is that correct? What happens when a child is a danger to themselves? Take for example a family environment where the family are in danger but the child is only 11 years old.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I ask Mr. McCarthy to explain that to me. Can he break down child welfare versus child protection?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What I mean by that is that a child might be displaying such behaviours to the point where they could actually attack the mother and the mother's life is in danger. If the child injures or, God forbid, kills the mother, he will end up in Oberstown.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We had a brief discussion about this.
Mr. Bernard Gloster:
The source of the question is what is driving the welfare concern.
Taking the broad remit of an agency like Tusla, where the child is in danger of being harmed by others or where others are not paying attention to the child's welfare to the extent that there is a danger, that is of interest to us. That is not to say we are not interested in other situations, but when it comes to something like significant disability, autism spectrum disorder or mental health issues, the expertise for primarily leading the care response involves a health service response usually supported by Tusla. If it is a protective response, it is led by Tusla and sometimes supported by the HSE. That is what the joint protocol is there for. The Ombudsman for Children-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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When Mr. Gloster says the HSE, does he mean the children's disability network team, CDNT?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. Gloster-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is there anyone from the CDNTs here today with Mr. McCarthy?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Has his Department not taken over the CDNTs?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Have the CDNTs not yet been incorporated into the Department?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
No. The transfer of specialist disability functions from the Department of Health has not happened yet.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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When was that to happen?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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One second now.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Never mind the legislation. We have people in limbo. This is an 11-year-old child whose mother, brother and sister are in danger. The child is only 11. Everybody has washed their hands of this child. His placement has been certified as an actual residential provision placement, but there is no residential provision. That is why I am asking. The Department had €95 million and it gave it back. What is the problem that the Department has not taken over the CDNTs?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The transfer of functions of community specialist disability services has not happened yet. As for legislation to give effect to that, it is quite a complex transfer because what we are talking about is HSE-provided and HSE-funded services for particular cohorts provided on both a mainstream and a specialist service basis, and for the first time-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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No. I will tell Mr. McCarthy what we are talking about. Let me cite to him figures from a document I have here. It relates to CDNT services in County Wexford. It states that there are two whole-time equivalent physiotherapist, three whole-time equivalent occupational therapist, OT, four speech and language therapists and four whole-time equivalent psychologist vacancies. It states that the services are not fit for purpose. My office has a library and a list the length of my arm of services not being provided, and we are here discussing whether we will be able to cater for 200,000 refugees. I do not understand. The last conversation we had when the Department was before us it almost guaranteed to us that the provision for CDNTs would come within the Department's remit by July of this year. That was when it was supposed to happen.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There are issues. Those are the issues.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Children are in crisis because of this.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I am beginning to think that the country has been taken over by refugee and Ukrainian issues and that everything else has been neglected because the answers are not forthcoming today. It seems the whole issue surrounding the Ukrainian debacle and-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you, Deputy.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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-----the unfortunate refugees has been mishandled to the nth degree. What we have heard is unbelievable, and the witnesses have avoided answering questions. If we had got the answers, I would hate to think where we would be.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Department have a target date now for the takeover?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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There is no point, Chair.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, Deputy. Does the Department have a target date, Mr. McCarthy?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Mr. McCarthy can go explain it to the 11-year-old's mother, who cannot-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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-----stir outside of her house and whose family cannot come into her house because the child is a danger to himself and others. Mr. McCarthy can go explain it because I am no longer able to do so. I am blue in the face dealing with people-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you, Deputy.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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-----who are on big salaries but who have no answers.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a target date for that service to be taken over?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It was July.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
The previous target was July. There was not agreement reached to a sufficient level to allow the Government to sign off on all the governance arrangements. There is a complicated piece involved in joint oversight by two parent Departments of aspects of the HSE activity. We want to be able to provide assurance to this committee and to others on the oversight of the funding involved.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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When are we talking about? Is it the middle of next year?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is this a union issue or something? What is it?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
No. It is about being able to ensure public confidence in the use of funds within the HSE and ensuring that the accountability arrangements in that regard are robust enough to meet the requirements of public accountability.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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But it does not bother the Department at all when it spends €91 million on non-compliant procurement.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Department keep the committee briefed on a likely date for that takeover? That is important.
I call Deputy Catherine Murphy.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Some 93% of providers signed up to the core funding model; 7% did not. Are they still being paid or have they dropped out?
My second question is about the county childcare committees, CCCs. To whom do they respond? Do they respond to the Department or to the local authorities? Are they bringing to the Department issues with regard to gaps in the service?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
I might ask my colleague, Dr. Brooks, to come in on the governance arrangements for the county childcare committees.
As for providers who have not signed up to the core funding model, it is entirely at the discretion of a provider as to whether or not to sign up for core funding.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If providers do not sign up, they are paid differently.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Did we lose 7% from the system then?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is it coming through them that there are issues in respect of the smaller providers?
Dr. Anne-Marie Brooks:
The CCCs have not reported that providers have engaged with them on sustainability matters. A small number of services have engaged with our case management system this year, and two of those services went on to apply for sustainability funding. Others would have had support in respect of other matters such as governance or operation of services.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If providers are at risk of not being able to continue, they should contact their county childcare providers. That is how they access the sustainability fund.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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May I ask Mr. Gloster about Benefacts? Now that the service is no longer available, where are the gaps in respect of the data that the Department formerly used and that are now not available?
Mr. Bernard Gloster:
There are two parts to that. The first is that we collect data from our funded agencies ourselves directly through the service level agreement we have with them. However, that is a challenge and a deficit for us because Benefacts pulled together data from a variety of sources, including their annual reports and so on. Essentially, the gap removes part of our assurance and we have to try to continue to build that into our own system now. However, our own system for commissioning is not yet what might be called a modern digital system that operates consistently across the country. It is very variable, and there is no doubt but that it has taken away a part of the assurance on which we relied.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does Tusla have to employ additional people in respect of internal audit, for example?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is there a cost to the Department by virtue of the loss of the service?
Mr. Bernard Gloster:
I do not think there is a quantifiable financial cost by virtue of Benefacts not being there because it was not, of itself, an obligatory thing to be there. It was a good assurance, so there is a loss in that sense. The internal audit functions for Tusla were provided up to this year by the HSE on an outsourced basis from where Tusla came from the HSE. We have just recruited our own direct internal auditor and we will resource that person with a team. There is no doubt but that the nature and complexity of our work, the volume of our funding and the amount we are discharging through third parties such as the community and voluntary sector and the 600 entities I mentioned require us now to reach a threshold of internal audit and assurance that is no longer suitable to have outsourced to the HSE. We are literally this month appointing our own internal auditor.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What prompted that? Was it the loss of this service or was it going to happen anyway?
Mr. Bernard Gloster:
I think that it was going to happen anyway, to be fair. The HSE felt that it needed to concentrate on internal audit for its own increasing needs and systems.
Ultimately, with an agency like Tusla, which had shared services with the HSE when it was set up in 2014, the complexity of governance requirements of public funding and the volumes we are using meant it just was not suitable any more.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The way in which Benefacts was set up allowed for granular analytics. This meant that instead of doing a sample internal audit, it was possible to choose the areas where something stood out. Now that this information and data are no longer available, can that be replaced just by internal audit? Will Tusla carry out sampling, for example?
Mr. Bernard Gloster:
I do not think internal audit on its own can do that. The HSE internal audit and Tusla have increasingly used outsourced partners and accountancy firms to do risk-based audits in targeted, granular detail. There is no point in saying Benefacts did not do anything. It did and it was there for a reason and made a good contribution. Ultimately, if we are to replace the part of the assurance we took from what Benefacts did, it will come from having a standard, digital, high-level information input system for each person or agency we fund and having that feed us much more data than we currently have in order that we can make the risk assessments and the benefits analysis the Deputy is talking about.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will make clear what information the committee needs to get on intermediaries. We need to know the number of intermediaries and who they are; the amount they have been paid; the proportion of that they received as opposed to the accommodation provider; the number of properties in each case; and the number of individuals accommodated via each of them. We need to get a handle on this because these are the types of issues that can get out of hand.
If somebody seeking international protection is in a property sourced via an intermediary and makes a complaint about the conditions to the Department, what happens?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
There would be no distinction between somebody who is in a property procured in that way and somebody who was in a property procured by any other means. All complaints are treated in the same way when individuals raise issues with the Department. As I mentioned earlier, there is an inspection regime in respect of approved international protection accommodation and we have a more ad hocinspections arrangement for the emergency accommodation we are procuring.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What does Mr. McCarthy mean by "ad hoc"?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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For direct provision.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am clearly talking about the latter.
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
There are standards that have been agreed with all of the interested parties in the sector - these go back to the McMahon report - in terms of establishing minimum standards for direct provision centres. That is a very formal inspections process.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is not what I am asking about. I am asking about the emergency accommodation that is being provided.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When Mr. Carthy refers to follow up, would the resident in any circumstances be told to first contact the intermediary?
Mr. Kevin McCarthy:
It depends on the nature of the complaint. I do not think the suggestion in any circumstance would be to talk to an intermediary. If it is a hospitality sector setting, there may be a dialogue with the manager of the accommodation to establish what the position is but clearly if there are a number of complaints about a particular setting, it becomes quite obvious to us that there is an issue in the setting and we will arrange for an inspection visit.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In an extreme situation, the Department could withdraw all contracts with-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Department has done that.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If a hotel or property owner does not put in place the proper facilities and all the rest of it, the Department would withdraw its services from that location?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What happens if that property was sourced via an intermediary? What would happen in that instance?
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. McCarthy keeps referring to a "small number" of instances. I know of-----
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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-----entire regions where, to my knowledge, all emergency accommodation is being delivered via intermediaries.
Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Are there any counties where, for example, there are more people being housed via intermediaries than via direct contracts?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Just before we conclude, I have a question about the companies that are being contracted to provide services such as food, etc. I understand proper procurement processes must be applied, including e-tendering if the contract exceeds a certain figure, but there is room for social clauses and so on. Does the Department put an emphasis on engaging companies based in this country and paying tax here? From here on, could an emphasis be put on that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Other countries use a system in which they break down the size of contracts to bring their value below a certain figure. This is to try to give preference. That can be done.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am not only referring to the social clause. Contracts can be broken down to come in below the EU threshold so there is more room for manoeuvre in awarding them.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Do the companies that are engaged, particularly the bigger ones, pay tax here and are they registered for tax in this country?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They have to be paying tax here.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We looked for the figure for the highest cost per place. Ms Baxter referred to an average of €70 but we have not been able to ascertain during the meeting what the highest cost is.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay. We have had a wide-ranging discussion about many issues in a big Department with considerable responsibility. I thank the witnesses for joining us today and the staff in the Department for the work involved in preparing for the meeting. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General and the staff in his office for assisting the committee today. Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any actions agreed arising from this meeting? Agreed. Is it also agreed that we note and publish the opening statements and the briefing documents provided for today's meeting? Agreed.
With the agreement of the committee, we will suspend briefly to allow officials to withdraw before we deal with a few matters in private session.