Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 22 September 2022
Public Accounts Committee
Business of Committee
9:30 am
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The business for this afternoon is as follows: minutes, accounts and financial statements, correspondence, work programme and any other business. The first item is minutes from the meeting dated 15 September 2022, which have been circulated to members. Do members wish to raise any matters in relation to the minutes? Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual they will be published on the committee’s web page.
The second item is accounts and financial statements. Four sets of financial statements have been laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas between 13 and 16 September 2022. I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to address these before I open up the floor.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
The accounts and statements that have been presented since last week include, first, the National Cancer Registry Ireland 2021. This received a qualified audit opinion. The accounts, in my view, give a true and fair view, except that they account for the costs of retirement benefit entitlements of staff, only as they become payable. That is standard for many health bodies, but it is not the conventional accounting treatment and therefore it is a qualified opinion in that respect. Second is Science Foundation Ireland for 2021, which has a clear audit opinion. Third is Rasaíocht Con Éireann group accounts for 2021, which received a clear audit opinion. Finally, Teagasc accounts for 2021 received a clear audit opinion.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is good. Does any member wish to raise any issues around this?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is good to see that it will be coming, and that no issues are being raised, particularly in bodies where maybe in the past they were not as tip top as they are now.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It shows that the system works.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General’s office and the Committee of Public Accounts keep an eye on all that. As usual, accounts and financial statements will be published on the committee’s web page as part of our minutes.
The third item is correspondence. As previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will continue to be dealt with in according to proposed actions that have been circulated. Decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the meeting and published on the web page. The first category of correspondence under which members have flagged items for discussion is B, which is correspondence from accounting officers and their Minister of the committee. A number of items were held over from last week for this week’s meeting, because the member who had raised it was not present etc. The first three items relate to the closure of the Benefacts database. I propose that we take them together. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Item R1378 is from Mr. David Moloney, Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It is dated 26 July 2022 and it provides information that had been requested by the committee regarding the public funding of Benefacts. The second item of correspondence is R1403 and is from Mr. Pádraig Dalton, director general of the CSO, dated 26 July and also regarding Benefacts. It says to provide a substitute for the database Benefacts provided to the CSO the director general tentatively estimates a cost of €500,000 per year for staff plus technology investment in the first one or two years of approximately €200,000 to €250,000 with ongoing hardware and software costs. However, the director general states that such investment is not likely given that there are other initiatives in train, although those initiatives will not provide all the data that the CSO will require to meet EU legislation. That data that had been available on Benefacts, is obviously lost. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has stated that it has engaged with a number of Departments regarding the data provided by Benefacts. It is not clear if it engaged with the CSO, which appears to have relied heavily on the data and information from the Benefacts research, and we can see this in their document. Members will also want to be made aware that a further related item from the Department of Rural and Community Development has been received and is due to be considered at next week’s meeting.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Can I come in?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have one more item to go through first. The other item is from Deputy Catherine Murphy, which includes a related proposal. She can speak to that item, which is number R1367. She flagged it for discussion.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We were given assurances that there was no interest in all relevant Departments, and I do not know if the CSO was contacted in relation to the continuation of Benefacts. That is pretty much my recollection of it.
The CSO's response shows that there is a sizeable cost in replicating what had been available in Benefacts. It would involve setting it up again where there was something already there. I do not know if we will send that to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform of if it is aware of it. If we had not sent it to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform already, I think we should do that. The Department is saying in correspondence 1378 that, "As the Committee will be aware, most of the relevant data published by Benefacts is available to public bodies as open data from other official bodies." However, the whole idea of Benefacts that was it actually amalgamated that data. That is where the real benefits of Benefacts was. It is infuriating to read that and to know that the likes of the CSO are likely to have to duplicate the work. The other issue highlighted in the CSO’s response is that, "Work planned by the Department of Community and Rural Affairs on social enterprises data collection could be a partial replacement data source, as would data held by the Charities Regulator. However, these data sources would not cover all of the detail". That is the point. We are here to talk about value for money. Something was working, it was closed down, it now has to be replicated and there will be a cost across a range of different Departments. That seems to me to be the very opposite of value for money. In relation to correspondence R1367, I have requested consideration of documents from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and I am asking the committee to seek those documents from the Department that I have referenced. It is in the context of this same range of issues. That is my ask in that piece of correspondence.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Deputy for that. I was looking at the correspondence from the CSO last night, which raises a number of issues. It states clearly that a significant source of information and data for the national accounts and statistics had greatly improved the quality of information on the non-profit sector that had been included in these results. It goes on to say that, in general, compilers of official statistics have always found this sector difficult to measure, given its diversity. Yet, Benefacts was doing that.
Going further, we reach the point the Deputy alluded to. The letter says:
Work planned by the Department of Community and Rural Affairs on social enterprises data collection could be a partial replacement data source, as would data held by the Charities Regulator. However, these data sources would not cover all of the detail (i.e. the variables/ items of information about each entity) available in Benefacts.
From my memory of previous correspondence on this issue - and members of the committee might correct me on this - there was a figure of €6 million over six years. Funding for this was less than €1 million a year. The Central Statistics Office, CSO, which is the gold-standard body for dealing with these matters, very much depended on this for some information. I am at a loss as to what happened here with Benefacts. It is deeply concerning. Is there something we do not know? When we have the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform before us, we need it to explain this.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We have done that already and I have to say that it was one of the most frustrating experiences.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We need to do it again. Our last meeting with the Department was not satisfactory.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It was a morning of non-answers on this.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It was.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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A report was carried out by Indecon. It very clearly said that, if this was going to be replaced, there should be an interim measure in place because this information is required for good governance. The CSO is very fussy about its information and rightly so. Some of the statistics in respect of the Garda have even been put under qualification because there are concerns as to their reliability. For the CSO to find this to be of such value really reinforces the need for it. A partial replacement is not enough. We should have an actual replacement or we should reconsider bringing it back. An unpopulated database is obviously of no value because there are no datasets. There would be quite a lot of work involved in repopulating if it were to be brought back but the platform is there to do it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it agreed that we will follow up on that letter and request that information regarding this matter?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes. We should send the CSO's letter to the Department as well.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. It is agreed to proceed with that. The next item of correspondence is No. 1410B from Mr. Brendan Gleeson, Secretary General of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It is dated 25 August 2022 and provides information requested by the committee on the digitising of records of the Irish Land Commission. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. Deputy Catherine Murphy has flagged this item for discussion.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Minister has agreed that access to these records is in the public interest but they are fragile and require digitisation. They are a real treasure trove. It was announced by the Department that there was going to be a move towards providing some access to them. It has moved on a little bit in that the Department is engaging with the National Archives, which was a great deal of expertise in this area, but it may not have capacity given the extent of the records held. Even the pre-1922 records would be of enormous historical significance and help. It is a useful response but, while it says that it is in the public interest for these records to be made available, it is not entirely clear as to how that is to happen.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It has not been decided. It states: "For now, the Department will remain focussed on finding the best way to digitise the search/finding aids for the ILC [Irish Land Commission] records with a view to preserving the integrity of the collection and making the search aids electronically available to the public as a first step."
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It would be quite useful if the Department would give us an update when there is a change in this regard. I completely accept that these documents are fragile and that digitising them is a great way to allow people to use them without damaging them.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They are stored in a building in Portlaoise at the moment. We hope that they are in safe keeping. One of the particularly important issues that is coming up is the issue of bog plots, that is, turf plots on bogs. They are recorded on many of these documents. A lot of the original turbary rights and the folios recording them derive from the division of the old estates through the Irish Land Commission. Information on these matters is contained in those documents. In a couple of cases I have dealt with over the years, that was the only place this information could be found. It is important.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There is obviously a good bit of work going on in the National Archives. The letter references the Public Records Office of Northern Ireland. I have been there on numerous occasions. I have toured this modern facility. It used to be in a terrible state when it was in a different location but it is now down in the Titanic Quarter. It collaborates quite closely with the National Archives.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Where is it housed?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In the Titanic Quarter in Belfast. It is a purpose-built archive and the office really protects the records. I hope that, when we get an upgraded version here, we will have something similar.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That would be great. The next item of correspondence is No. 1426B from Mr. David Moloney, Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, dated 31 August 2022 and providing information requested by the committee regarding the status of the business case for the relocation of the National Maternity Hospital. Deputy Munster has flagged this for discussion. If the committee is agreeable, I will hold it back until next week. We have done that on a few occasions. The Deputy asked that I hold it back until next week if the committee is agreeable. Is that agreed? Agreed.
We will move on to No. 1428B from Mr. Mark Griffin, Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, dated 31 August 2022 and providing information requested by the committee regarding the national broadband plan. It is not proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence which may be relevant to our forthcoming meeting with the Department on 13 October. Is that agreed? Agreed. It was flagged by Deputy Carthy but he is not online. There is a substantial body of information included in the documents that came with this letter. It is something we need to keep a close eye on because, as members will see in the documents, although a member of National Broadband Ireland, NBI, yesterday assured me that it has made great progress in the last week-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We should ask what his definition of "progress" is.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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This is what the member informed me. I referred him to this document, according to which the milestone reached by the end of June was 15,000 premises connected to the NBI network, which is 23% of premises passed. The number of premises passed was 60,000.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Some 60,000-odd have been passed, 15,000 of which have been connected. NBI was represented at the National Ploughing Championships yesterday and I raised this with it.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It can afford to be there.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. A photograph of me was taken while I was being told this so I told the photographer to make sure a caption was put under it to explain that I was arguing with the NBI official about the low level of take-up and the fact that only 15,000 premises were connected. I have great concerns about this. We have got involved in this scheme and it seems that, where the national broadband plan network is being rolled out, people are saying that they are okay and have a good service with another provider already. By any standards, this level of uptake, 23%, is very low. I know it is early days-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is early days.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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-----but we are a few years into this and we have only 15,000 premises connected as of 1 July. We need to bear this in mind.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What was the original target? Where are we compared with that?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The target was 105,000 in the first year. There was then a revised target for that year and the second year. The current target is for 102,000 premises to be passed by the end of January 2023. That was originally supposed to be passed by January 2022 but that did not happen. The schools programme is going reasonably well. Some 679 schools are connected. There are also 284 community connection points. It is good that is happening. It will allow people to work remotely from different locations. However, with regard to homes, premises and farms being connected, the numbers are very small by any standard. It is an issue we need to talk to NBI about when we have it in again. Either the marketing of the service is not good or people are just saying "We are fine, thank you very much. I already have good wireless broadband and I am happy enough with it." I do not know which is happening.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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From a constituency perspective, anybody who contacts me regarding a desire to be connected is two years' away from being able to.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Could the Deputy say that again?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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From a constituency perspective, anybody who has contacted me and who wants to be connected is at least two years' away from their area being connected. I have not had anyone on to me saying that they can get it but do not want it. I feel it is just not being rolled out quickly enough. I do not know how NBI is prioritising. I know it has its map but I am not sure how it was compiled.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The response is in front of members. The figures are in it. They will be useful when NBI comes before the committee.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We need to ask about the cost. That may will be a decision for the retailers but the Analysys Mason report looked at that issue. This goes way back to when Deputy Bruton was the Minister.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of the overall spending and the €2.7 billion that the taxpayer is covering-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is the Deputy talking about the cost of connection or the cost of the roll-out?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If people do not have an income, they will not add another bill. That may well be the case. We have to understand what the impediments to take-up are.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The connection fee is €100 except in certain circumstances in which a certain amount of cable has to be put down.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That may be a factor but the other side of this from a financial point of view is that we are spending €2.7 billion and have only 15,000 households connected.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Another issue is that people may be tied into contracts. They may have access to the new service but be unable to get out of their contracts for another couple of months.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It sounds like we are going to have a very interesting weekend next weekend reading through these----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Reports and chapters.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What are you reading? The Comptroller and Auditor General's chapters.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will move on. The next item is No. 1431B from Mr. Peter Reynolds, chief financial officer of Trinity College, dated 1 September 2022 and providing information we requested regarding non-compliant procurement. The committee has a standing agreement to follow up on and request explanations from bodies that are accountable to it where the Comptroller and Auditor General identifies non-compliant procurement in excess of €500,000 in their accounts. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I have flagged this because there were a few things that stood out to me. As can be seen in the correspondence, 13 vendor or supplier payments were listed as non-compliant. Members can see the table included in the document along with the total figure. PricewaterhouseCoopers received €79,900, almost €80,000, for taxation advice to support overseas offices. A tender solution is being examined with HR for the 2022 financial year. I am curious as to why tax advice would not have been tendered for given the number of accountancy firms in the city, never mind in the State. The university is saying that a tender solution is being examined. We should write back and say that this needs to be a tendered process. Going down through these non-compliant payments, it can be seen that, in respect of the second one, there are no repeat purchases planned and that the awards are now being tendered for. That is fine. The fourth relates to consultancy. No repeat purchase is planned. I have flagged another in respect of pensions. Some €434,941 was spent on pension administration fees. The expenditure was not assessed due to the designation of overall pensions spend as exempt. The contract is now tendered. Does the Comptroller and Auditor General wish to explain that? I take it to mean that the university is saying, because the overall pension spend is exempt from procurement, the contract does not have to be tendered for. Is that correct?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That seemed to be an unusual explanation. Do any members wish to come in on any of that? I ask for the agreement of the committee to correspond with Mr. Reynolds and to explain that the committee wishes to have a tendered solution for the taxation advice to support overseas offices. Is that agreed? Agreed.
There is an issue with education and training boards, ETBs, and non-compliant procurement. We may wish to consider this and address other issues that are arising. A number of the items of correspondence on today's list provide explanations for non-compliant procurement. Seven of those are from ETBs and there are a number of recurring themes within them. Members will have seen this over recent years. The first reason being given for why individual ETBs are not able to properly carry out procurement is that there are difficulties in securing staff for procurement-specific roles. Another is aggregate spend leading to breaches. A number of ETBs state that this happens on local sites within an ETB area. These procure separately but, when the spend is added up for the ETB, it can lead to breaches of the national threshold of €25,000. By way of example, it is noted that Dublin and Dún Laoghaire ETB has over 90 sites. If each reached the €25,000 mark, the overall spend would reach €2.3 million. I calculated that figure quickly this morning. Contract roll-over is another recurring theme and inadequate financial systems are also mentioned.
No. R1437 from the City of Dublin ETB gives a good overview of some of the issues. We will note and publish the rest. I am open to suggestions but it might also be worth bringing these items of correspondence to the attention of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and the Office of Government Procurement, although you would hope they are actively working on them. There is an issue with regard to the threshold and calculating costs over different sites. Each site can go up to that figure. I know that Dublin and Dún Laoghaire ETB is the biggest with 90 sites. A lot of non-compliant procurement could accumulate across these. Is it agreed that we bring this to the attention of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and the Office of Government Procurement? Agreed.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There is an overall body for ETBs. It has its headquarters in Naas. I would have thought that it would have some sort of co-ordinating role.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Its AGM is this coming week.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There are also economies of scale such that one would have to ask if things can be grouped and whether that is being even considered when we have something that is so fragmented that each individual ETB is its own kind of satellite.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the new name for the body for ETBs, does anybody know?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am trying to think of it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It was the national association of vocational education committees, VECs, but-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is it.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is based in Naas
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Its annual conference is in the next week or so.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
There are a lot of developments which are, I think, being led by the Department but, obviously, ETBI and the individual ETBs are consulted on shared services and they are focusing on not only financial management but also personnel systems. Obviously, however, there is scope there for a shared service around procurement as well.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is it agreed that we bring this to the body's attention as well?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The next item is No. 1434B, from Mark Griffin, Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. It is dated 1 September 2022 and provides a summary of the report requested by the committee regarding climate action plan targets that was undertaken by McKinsey & Company. The Department has consulted with McKinsey and there is no issue with publication of this material. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I have flagged this item of correspondence because the figures in it are out of this world. Members will see that there are figures in the first section of the document. It goes into the cost of delivering on a pathway and states that major investment of €119 billion is required by 2030, focused on electricity at €36 billion, transport at €42 billion and upgrading of buildings at €31 billion. The document goes on to state that the alternative scenario is reduced ambitions in agriculture, resulting in a higher total economy cost. I just thought that the figures were very high. I know that there is private sector investment and, obviously, public investment, but the document really sets out the challenge economically in meeting this. It does, however, go on to outline that there are some positive signs as to what is happening in other countries in that maybe they are a bit ahead of us in terms of the cost of solar decreasing, for example, and other developments happening there. I just think that in the next eight years we face into significant challenges. Does any Member wish to comment on this?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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No. I concur with you, Chairman, about what lies ahead.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I ask for agreement that we correspond back with the Department and ask what portion of that estimated total cost of €119 billion by 2030 it sees as coming from the public purse. Maybe we could get a figure for that and a breakdown of it across the major sectors: electricity, transport-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Did you say €190 million, Chair?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I said €119 billion.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I was wondering. Sorry. I thought you said "million".
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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You would not get a whole lot for that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is €119 billion: electricity at €36 billion, transport at €42 billion and buildings at €31 billion. Is it agreed that we write back and ask Mr. Griffin if the figure includes everything?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It does not.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No, it cannot because there is agriculture as well, but maybe we will ask Mr. Griffin what the full cost is and ask him to break it down by sector but, also, ask him what proportion of that is expected to be funded from public funds for the transition.
The next item is No. 1442 B and it is from Eilísh Hardiman, chief executive of Children's Health Ireland, dated 2 September. It provides information requested by the committee on non-compliant procurement. It is proposed we note and publish the item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I have flagged this item. There are some explanations, as Members will see in the correspondence, of some of the reasons given to us in respect of specialised services and tenders having been undertaken in other cases for technical services and projects. On medical and surgical consumables there was expenditure of €281,000. It is stated:
The underlying products and supplies are of a specialized and patient specific nature. CHI continues to work itself and also closely with the HSE in an effort to ensure that all such supplies may be secured in a compliant manner.
There is an awful lot of stuff in the correspondence. I suppose that with medical matters we can understand that some of that will be specialised and that there may be only the one company supplying it, but this is one we need to keep an eye on because there are significant examples here of tendering not happening for various reasons and of commitments being given. It is important we monitor that to ensure that there is tendering in the future.
The next item is No. 1449B, from Clíodhna Guy, head of licensing, legal and compliance at the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board. I think we dealt with that fairly well this morning. Are Members okay with this item? I referred to some of the information in it earlier. We are all right on that. It is proposed to note and publish it. Is that agreed? Agreed.
The next item is No. 1452B, from David Gunning, chief officer, National Paediatric Hospital Development Board, dated 12 September 2022, providing information requested by the Committee of Public Accounts arising from our meeting with the board on 16 June 2022. The level of detail provided is welcome. It is proposed to note and publish the item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. Does any member wish to comment on it?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Carthy has flagged it as well.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I think the object for all of us should be to try to keep the cost of this hospital down. I know there are all sorts of speculation as to the cost it will reach and so on but, as I keep saying, a contract goes both ways. I asked very specifically what the triggers were whereby the State or the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board could counter-claim. I asked if there were other triggers and was told there were no other triggers. Then one of our requests back to the board was that it review the transcripts of the meeting of 16 June and confirm that it is satisfied that the information provided to the committee is entirely accurate. I will pick at just a few things in the response. Mr. Gunning said we should have drawn the committee's attention to a penalty clause on subsection completion. It goes on to state further down, regarding penalty clauses on subsection completion, "The NPHDB is currently reviewing all options that may or may not be taken in relation to liquidated damages..."
It goes on. The issue here was that they appear to have withheld moneys at one point but, because they did not go through the correct process, there was difficulty. Essentially, they are telling us that they have to go through due process before they can seek to deduct moneys that would otherwise be due to the contractor. I would have wished to engage with them on exactly the details and fallout of that and what due process they had to go through. However, when I asked if there were other triggers, they immediately answered "No". I moved on because I thought that was the case.
It is much less satisfactory to deal with this, in this kind of way, in retrospect. We were not given correct information and that was what very much annoyed me. They are now telling us that this is another trigger with regard to the process. However, I am not sure about the quantum of what could be challenged on this. We can evaluate the number of claims made by the contractor. We can be told there are 25 claims, how much they amount to and the amount of the biggest claim. However, we do not have a similar overview of this side of things. We need such an overview.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What does the Deputy propose?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I propose that we look for the granular detail and the kind of stuff we could have engaged with them on. I am not sure if this completely covers it. If they were before the committee again, I would have a doubt. They said at the beginning they were generally satisfied, but I was not generally satisfied, because there was another trigger to which they did not draw our attention.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will look for that. Is that agreed? Agreed. This will be an ongoing issue for a considerable period. We will note and publish it and request that further information. The next category is correspondence from and related to private individuals and any other correspondence. The first one is No. 1366 from Deputy Catherine Murphy, dated 19 July, to propose that we request information on track attendance at the Shelbourne Park greyhound stadium from Greyhound Racing Ireland. Does Deputy Murphy wish to-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is exactly what I am looking for.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That is what she is looking for in No. 1366. Is she happy enough with that?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is that agreed? Agreed. The next one is No. 1435, dated 31 August 2022, from an individual. It is further correspondence to the committee with regard to industrial relations matters arising from the individual's employment. We considered related correspondence at our meeting on 14 June. Given the matters raised were subject to ongoing proceedings, it was agreed that we would advise the correspondent that the committee was not a position to consider the matter further. I flagged No. 1435. Without-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We could not comment on that because we did not have the full detail. This is the correspondence in which the individual is just not happy that we are not dealing with it.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. We are not dealing with it. An adjudication process is going on and we need to be careful of that. We should advise the correspondent that, because there are ongoing proceedings and judgments will be made on this, it would be inappropriate for us to get involved at this stage. Would it be in order for us to ask the body concerned, that is, the other party to this, if it wishes to give us a response?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The party that wrote to us?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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No. The other party. Would it be in order for us to ask Citizens Information Centres for a response?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We were informed in the first correspondence.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It would have difficulty doing so in an ongoing case, in particular.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I suggest that we inform the correspondent of No. 1435-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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I thought we did. We agreed when it was concluded-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We agreed we would restate that position when it was concluded.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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However, I propose we add that when the matter is concluded, the committee may be open to re-examining the matter. That is as far as we could go with it.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I presume the Department of Social Protection funds the Citizens Information Centres. It is not audited, it is secondary.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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However, this is a live case.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will add that we may wish to examine it at the point where those proceedings are concluded. That is as far as we can go on No. 1435.
I will now deal with overdue correspondence. It was noted last week the secretariat reviewed the committee's sent correspondence to various bodies over the summer to ensure that all of the committee's requests for information from different bodies that are accountable to it have been responded to. A table of overdue correspondence items has been circulated. It should come up on the members' screens. Approximately 20 items are outstanding. I ask members to take a moment to review them. The default position is that the secretariat will continue to follow up on all items, in line with the committee's agreement, unless the committee feels that events have overtaken any of the issues. Sometimes the information is already here by some other means, we have already obtained it, or it or it is no longer required. Are there any items listed that the committee does not wish to follow up on?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Some of the personnel may have changed. I see one item in which that would have happened. It is quite difficult because different members will have raised some of these issues.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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We should follow the Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, item.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Deputy wish to take anything off the list?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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No, not that I can see.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to clarify that the secretariat will continue to follow up the items, even if we do not flag it. Is that correct?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Unless we have already got the information or the case is no longer relevant. If the Deputy see something that is not relevant, it can be pulled. It saves the secretariat the job of chasing it.
Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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The correspondence from the Irish Horse Racing Regulatory Board, IHRB, could be removed.
It is SO859. We have dealt with that today.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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That would be-----
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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It is the last one.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. It relates to CCTV.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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One of the Secretary Generals is due to appear before the Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach. That is fine.
We should not be in a position where the secretariat have to follow up on correspondence. If this committee has written to all these bodies, some of which are Departments, we have a right to expect we will be responded to. This adds to the workload for the secretariat. I find that unacceptable. We should not have to consider people who have not responded to us.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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In other words, if we write to them-----
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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What is the longest period we are looking at for overdue responses? Some correspondence dates from February.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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What is the story if we are not being responded to as the statutory committee? There must surely be some accountability if we are not getting the correspondence we are asking for.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Any particular body or Department that is audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General is responsible to the Committee of Public Accounts. Such bodies have an obligation to respond to us because the committee has the power to send for papers or, in other words, to request papers and documents. I count it as a breach of the Civil Service code if they do not respond.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Is it a matter for the Standards in Public Office Commission?
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Possibly, but not all of them are civil servants.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Some of them may be public servants as opposed to civil servants.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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They share work at the same time. As Deputy Catherine Murphy pointed out, we are only wasting our time. It seems rather pointless asking.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I suggest that we ask for a view on that from the parliamentary legal people.
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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In relation to that.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. We will request information from them regarding a body that is accountable to the committee that is not responding within a reasonable timeframe, or where there are persistent delays or obstruction. We will ask the Office of the Parliamentary Legal Advisers to give us a view on that. Is that all right?
Verona Murphy (Wexford, Independent)
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Yes, but we need to follow up on them all, with the possible exception of the IHRB and CCTV, which we have put to bed today.
Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, the secretariat puts in a lot of work chasing this stuff after meetings. As Deputies saw, keeping track of it can be difficult. Certainly, the secretariat keeps on it. If anything else comes up, the Deputy can raise it.
The next issue is the work programme. Following agreement last week regarding meetings, availability has been confirmed for the following engagements - the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications on 13 October; the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform on 20 October; the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth on 27 October; Greyhound Racing Ireland on 10 November; and the Department of Finance on 17 November. Is it agreed to proceed on that basis? Agreed.
A swap was done for meetings on 20 and 27 October between the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to facilitate the committee, which people are happy enough with. It is agreed to move ahead on that basis. I remind members that if there are specific areas on which they wish to focus the day departmental officials are in, to flag it with the clerk and he will bring it to their attention.
As discussed last week, I am reluctant to plan much further than that at this point. As members will be aware, the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2021 will be available to us from the end of September and we might want to prioritise further areas for examination once we have sight of it. We may want to do that in a very timely manner. Are there any other matters that members wish to raise on the work programme? I take it they are happy. That concludes our consideration of the work programme for today.
The last item on the agenda is any other business. Are there any other issues members wish to raise? Okay. We will go into private session for a short period to deal with a matter.