Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Representatives from Wicklow County Council are before us today. Before we begin, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses regarding references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. The witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if any of their statements are potentially defamatory in regard to an identifiable person or entity, the witnesses will be directed to discontinue the remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such direction. Before we hear from witnesses, I propose we publish the opening statement on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

On behalf of the committee, I extend a warm welcome to Ms Mary Cahill, climate action officer, and Mr. James Callery, environmental awareness officer, from Wicklow County Council. I invite Ms Cahill to make her opening statement and we will then take questions and comments from members. Members will have around ten minutes and may come back in later if we have time.

Ms Mary Cahill:

I am a senior executive engineer and currently hold the role of climate action officer for Wicklow County Council. I am accompanied here today by Mr. Jim Callery, environmental awareness officer in Wicklow County Council. We work together as part of the climate action team in Wicklow to work towards the targets set out in the climate action plan 2021 and bring awareness to all staff, the public via community groups, schools and so on, of the actions that can be taken to meet those targets. Following the formation of the climate and biodiversity action strategic policy committee, SPC, in Wicklow in June 2019, one of the issues raised by the members was the use of glyphosate, or weedkiller, by Wicklow County Council staff in public areas. The members asked the climate action team to look at the current practices and develop a policy that would lead to the reduction and possible elimination of the application of glyphosate by council staff. It was discovered that while staff were trained and certified in its application, there was little to no control of where or why the glyphosate was applied and no records were maintained of where or how much was being applied. In developing the policy we looked at our commitments at an operational level as a partner of the All-Ireland Pollinator Plan 2021-2025, or AIPP, and, in particular, our specific obligations under objective 2 of that plan. That objective reads:

Making public land pollinator friendly

By working together with Councils, Transport Authorities, Local Communities and others, we want to better coexist with biodiversity and help return food and shelter for pollinators to our island.

There are two targets in that objective that we want to work towards. The first one is to increase the area of council land managed in a pollinator-friendly way and the second is to make transport corridors more pollinator friendly.

To meet these two targets of the all-Ireland pollinator plan, we needed to reduce the application of glyphosate. How did we go about trying to do that? We set out a hierarchy of decisions in the policy, favouring the elimination or the avoidance of the use of glyphosate. The first option at the top of the decision tree is to do nothing, to retain what we have and leave it as is, and to identify and protect existing semi natural areas which provide food and shelter for pollinators and ensure these areas are retained and enhanced through appropriate management wherever possible. An example of this is working with the municipal districts to expand the selected areas that are pollinator-friendly and to manage the six-weekly rotation of mow and lift. The second option on the decision tree is to manage weeds through mechanical methods, including the use of hand tools or strimming equipment, having regard with due care to the timing of works being carried out to benefit pollinators and wildlife. As an example, in the summer of 2021, the Wicklow municipal district hired a contractor with a sweeper with a front-loaded wire brush on the tractor and this managed to remove all the weeds along the curbside of the Wicklow town relief road in two days. The next option on the decision tree is to use alternatives such as chemical and glyphosate-free products to control the weeds and clean hard surfaces. Wicklow County Council purchased a Foamstream machine for plant control. This machine mixes natural oils with hot water, and when it is sprayed, it provides an environmentally friendly alternative to glyphosate. The final option is to use glyphosate or similar products to control, in one case, invasive species where other techniques are not an option and where the threat of invasive species to biodiversity or critical infrastructure warrants their use.

The policy has introduced the requirement for a business case to be completed by a municipal district or indeed anyone in the council, in advance of the application of glyphosate. I have included that business case in appendix A of my statement. This documents why options one to three on our hierarchy of decisions cannot be implemented and why glyphosate must be applied. If there is no suitable alternative and glyphosate is applied, then the application record form shown in appendix B, must be completed and this information will be stored in a central location. We are working with our IT section to develop an app to capture these data and allow for the locations to be mapped and to be available to the public.

Other actions in the policy are to provide training to all staff involved in the application of glyphosate to raise awareness of its effects on pollinator-friendly plants and watercourses, to register staff involved in the application of glyphosate with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and obtain a professional user number, ensure widespread compliance among staff in the completion of the business case for the application of glyphosate and the glyphosate application record form, investigate further alternatives to the application of glyphosate for weed control and ensure lessons learned are shared between all municipal districts and other local authorities, and to raise awareness among community groups, schools and businesses on the effects of the application of glyphosate and available alternatives.

I want to give a list of issues that have arisen while we were developing the protocol or the policy and that we are still dealing with. There is no suitable training available on the market that encompasses all of the needs within the policy. There is a three-day course for professional users on the application of glyphosate. However, a course is required that includes awareness of the implications of applying glyphosate, the alternatives available, and the health and safety surrounding storage and application. We are looking at developing an awareness course for all outdoor staff and providing the training for certification to a small number of staff.

The appointment of an external contractor to carry out mechanical weed removal raised some industrial relations issues within the municipal district. Equipment like the Foamstream is very expensive, and while Wicklow County Council could afford one machine, this is not sufficient to cover the whole county, and the municipal districts are using it on rotation. While alternatives to glyphosate curb the growth of weeds, they do not kill the weeds to the extent that glyphosate does. This results in municipal district staff having to retreat more often during the growing season, leading to additional resources being required. Finally, an awareness campaign is required to educate the public on the need to leave areas looking unkempt.

Wicklow County Council has received great support for and interest in this policy and it is on the agenda of the plenary for 4 July 2022 when it will be expected to be adopted. I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the representatives of Wicklow County Council for coming before the committee today. We have had a good discussion with a Mr. James Walsh about pesticides and that is why the invitation went out to the council councils for feedback and information. First, it is good to see the work that is being done by Wicklow County Council and indeed other county councils. We have information back from 21 at this stage. We are talking about reducing the use of the substances. I have a couple of questions before I let other members in. One thing that struck me in your opening statement, Ms Cahill, was that it was discovered that while staff were trained and certified in its application, there was little or no control on where or why the glyphosate was applied. There were no records maintained of where or how much was applied. Are you referring to the guidance for local authorities to ensure compliance with the sustainable use of pesticides directive? I am asking because, to begin with, I want to explore the effectiveness of the Department's monitoring of the use of the pesticides by local authorities.

Ms Mary Cahill:

When we started looking into the existing practices to inform this policy, we were not aware of the guidance that was available. I do not think it was actually available at the time. I am referring to that. There was guidance for professional users from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, but that was more on a larger scale, whereas we were looking at a smaller scale of application. There was no control or records being kept at the time.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of the initiatives being taken by Wicklow County Council itself, one of the actions in your policy is to investigate the alternatives to the application of glyphosate and to share all the lessons between municipal districts and other local authorities. To the best of your knowledge, are any local authorities communicating with each other on this? If the initiatives are to be taken and are to become the norm rather than the exception, there needs to be a more comprehensive approach to it overall.

Ms Mary Cahill:

The climate action regional offices meet on a subregional basis every quarter. We meet with Kildare, Meath and Louth County Councils and this issue is raised at that meeting. We know Kildare County Council have employed a postgraduate student to look at alternatives and the success of alternatives. We share that information through our subregional CARO meetings.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Who actually makes up the climate action team in Wicklow County Council? Are the strategic policy committees, SPCs, all involved in it?

Ms Mary Cahill:

There are a few groups. We have the core group which consists of Mr. Callery, as the environmental awareness officer, and me, the heritage officer, and then administration support. At the moment we do not have a biodiversity officer or an energy staff member at the moment. Then we have green team, which involves a representative from each section within the council. They do this in addition to their day job. We feed small actions into that team that they roll out within their section. The SPC is separate again. It was formed in June 2019 as the first climate action SPC in the country. Again, we work closely with it.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Does the council have a good relationship with the public in the context of a small team like? Would Ms Cahill prefer to have a larger team?

Ms Mary Cahill:

We would love to have more people. Mr. Callery can answer that question if he wishes because he has been the environmental awareness officer for the past 15 years.

Mr. James Callery:

I certainly will. We have very strong relationships with communities across the County Wicklow and, in particular, with the Tidy Towns groups. We also work very closely with the public participation network, PPN, to get contact with communities and consult with them on any policies we are developing.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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How does the council raise awareness among community groups? Does it use the media?

Mr. James Callery:

We have established a strong network of contact directly with the groups around the county. That can often be the first line of communication with them. At least once a year we try to organise an event, conference or seminar for the Tidy Towns groups and the PPN members. We had one called Let’s Get Buzzing in April. Approximately 60 community representatives attended that. A range of expert speakers came in to talk at the event. We use social media a great deal, together with local radio and newspapers, in order to get the message out into the wider community.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I am finished for the moment. I will ask more questions later. I call Deputy Devlin.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Cahill and Mr. Callery are very welcome. I will focus first on their opening statement, which is welcome and represents great progress. I am from the neighbouring county council area of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. Since 2016 onwards, there have been many similarities between what my council and Wicklow County Council have been doing. I am familiar with the work of my council. It is great to read about the work of Wicklow County Council. I commend it on the work it has done.

On the AIPP, which is of interest to me, the witnesses highlighted two of the objectives it contains. In particular, they referred to making public land pollinator friendly. Can they elaborate on how that is being done? Mr. Callery mentioned the Let’s Get Buzzing event and a few other initiatives. He specifically mentioned pollinator-friendly corridors, the use of which we need to encourage. One can work in that regard with communities and Tidy Towns groups, both of which are very in tune with this and want to see this progress. On the other side of the equation, and this is something the committee has discussed, are the complaints that the council also probably receives because a pollinator-friendly corridor may look a little bit more untidy to what people may have become used to. Where signage is put up, people understand what is being done and may be encouraged to participate as a result. Can I ask the witnesses comment on that matter?

On the use of chemicals and glyphosate, when mentioning the products and equipment to control weeds and clean hard surfaces, our guests specifically referred to the hiring of contractors. Let us be honest. There is a cost associated with this. It is cheaper and possibly quicker to use a chemical-based approach, but there are obviously long-term effects, whereas the cost of hiring a contractor for two days may have an immediate effect but does not have the same long-lasting effect of the weeds growing back in the next growth season. Can the witnesses comment on the costs in that regard? We need that information because we want to see this kind of initiative rolled out across the country. As the Chairman stated, this has come to us through Mr. Walsh and the work he has undertaken. Thankfully, our engagement with local authorities seems to be that they are all on the same page here. That is good news. We have to talk about the cost and the circumstances in which it is prohibitive. I understand what our witnesses are saying about circumstances where a chemical-based solution has to be used because I can see the relevant information on the application form they sent to us in advance. How many applications to use chemicals have been submitted and what level of chemicals are being used in spite of all of the good efforts that have been made?

I have many other questions on these issues, but I will leave it at those for moment. I will come back in later.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses stated that when the machines were hired, a wire brush was put on the sweeper. Most councils now have their own sweepers. Is it an easy job to put a wire brush on the sweeper on the council’s own machines in order to cut down on costs. The sweepers in my area - I imagine this is the case everywhere - are out every day of the week. If it was possible to put wire brushes on the sweepers on two days of the week, would that help with the cost instead of hiring in contractors? I agree with Deputy Devlin that the biggest issue is going to be the cost to the councils, particularly when one considers what they are doing on a daily basis. The councils will say that it is not possible to fund everything across the board. Instead of hiring in contractors, would it be possible to fit wire brushes to the sweepers that councils already own?

Ms Mary Cahill:

I thank Deputy Devlin for his question. I will deal with the cost issue first. We are still at the lessons learned stage. An increased budget will definitely be required. We have been in discussions with municipal districts. The environment section and our climate action budget within Wicklow County Council will cover the additional cost this year, but we have said to the section that it needs to look for an increased budget next year in order to deal with this. A contractor was brought in because we were trialling it. As stated, we were still at the stage of learning lessons and were trialling it. There would be no reason that the own machine could not be retrofitted with the wire brushes.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Right.

Ms Mary Cahill:

This was more to help us see how long the effect of the action lasted before we would have to return to carry out the action again. Perhaps Mr Callery would like to speak about the AIPP.

Mr. James Callery:

Yes. On the site selection, we have taken a two-pronged approach. First, we are working through our municipal districts to identify sites under our own management that we can leave and unmown develop as pollinator-friendly sites and get the signage out on them. We will then look to have the municipal districts map these to show that we are committed to the AIPP and are taking action.

At the same time, we are also working with our community groups, residents’ associations, the Tidy Towns groups and the schools in order that they can identify sites and carry out the same process. We have been providing signage to many residents' associations or group that wants to develop an area as no-mower/no-mow area for pollinators.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Returning to what Deputy Devlin asked about, the general public has become used to everything being cut in a lovely and looking nice on all sides. At home, I reckon that 50% of people will understand what is going on and the others will ask why grass and weeds are growing all over the place.

Mr. James Callery:

We have had few complaints come in about the policy of not mowing. One thing we are encouraging groups to do when they are creating a meadow area or one that is left for pollinators is that they mow the edge or a path through it, just to show that the site is being managed, and is not just being left unmanaged. When people see that level of management in it and the signage, they understand what is being done. Once the management happens later in the season to cut the long grass and remove it, we have not had many complaints as to how we are managing sites.

Ms Mary Cahill:

Can I-----

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, Does Ms Cahill want to come back in?

Ms Mary Cahill:

Some of the municipal district engineers still have representations made to them from the Tidy Towns to go out to clear weeds along the kerb sides and that is something that is going to be there. At the SPC, we have discussed and have agreed that it will write to the national Tidy Towns organisation to ensure that the judging and marking system takes this into account. It already does, as Mr. Callery has confirmed, but just to reiterate that point to that body.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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That is what I was going to ask our witnesses about because some of the worry which people are expressing to me is around the fact that Cashel has improved in the marks it has received in the past number of years in the Tidy Towns competition. People think that areas are now being left overgrown. When it is explained to them, however, they understand. Is there a message that municipal councils and county councils need to get out a great deal more in a bigger campaign to make people aware of what is actually going on in these areas?

Ms Mary Cahill:

Yes, absolutely. It is one of the issues I raised in my statement that in the growing season, particularly in April and May when one did not want to be cutting any grass because of the pollinators at the time and to delay the cutting of grass; we ran a social media campaign. It is something we recognised needs further work.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Does Deputy Devlin wish to come back in?

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I hear our witnesses comments on the costs, which is understandable. I raise the issue of the use of glyphosate where there are large weeds growing on the kerb sides, footpaths or whatever.

Over time, they can do damage. Ms Cahill mentioned invasive species doing damage to infrastructure, etc. She mentioned colleagues in departments like roads who may want these weeds removed sooner than other people would want. She also mentioned Tidy Towns and residents groups requesting the same. Where that situation arises, what is the best practice learned so far? I accept these things will change. When pesticides or herbicides need to be used, how much have been used so far, by way of granting?

Ms Mary Cahill:

The policy has not been adopted yet but the municipal districts have the business case and record sheet. I have only got the first two in this week. Invasive species is the obvious one where it needs to be used for Himalayan balsam or-----

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Hogweed.

Ms Mary Cahill:

-----Japanese knotweed.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The chemicals being used for those-----

Mr. James Callery:

On the alternative treatments we are looking at for the management of weeds growing at the edges of paths and roads, the two we are trialling are mechanical removal with brushes, which works well somewhere like the port access road that does not have cars parked on it and the sweeping truck can get up and down it with ease; and Foamstream, which is a mixture of hot water and organic oils to kill off weeds.

Ms Mary Cahill:

We have been in discussion with the municipal district engineers about what kind of things they can put in the business case. They asked if they could do a one-fits-all for the season, for the strip between the cycle path and footpath where there could be infrastructural damage. We will wait and see what is coming in from the districts. After the first season, we will be able to review it and be able to say they cannot do a blanket business case for this situation for the whole district and that we want it per road. It is learning. I am sorry to keep saying that but it is early stages.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. It is trial and error. Ms Cahill highlighted in her statement the sharing of information both between Departments and between local authorities. She mentioned Louth, Kildare and a few others. How frequent is that sharing of information? I have personal experience of Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown but others are further along the road - excuse the pun - and more aware of what things worked.

Ms Cahill mentioned hot foam. When I was on the council I raised it. The cost of glyphosate versus the cost of a machine means it is a good few years of expenditure before it washes its face. Did Ms Cahill say the council bought one or is buying one?

Ms Mary Cahill:

We have bought one.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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So it has made the investment

Ms Mary Cahill:

We have made the investment but have not had any feedback from the districts to see how often they need to revisit to treat it or anything like that.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Cahill said there was the appointment of an external contractor to carry out the mechanical weed removal, and it raised IR issues, which was inevitable I presume. Wicklow County Council will not be the only council with that issue. As the Chairman said, there are other options in terms of utilising or repurposing some of the council's equipment.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Coming back to the wire brush method, do the witnesses have any idea how effective that was compared to spraying for weeds? Were they gone for a few weeks or a month?

Ms Mary Cahill:

I cannot answer for definite but it was very effective on the day. It was very clean after it had gone along the road compared to spraying, where you still have that untidy look of dead weeds. I do not know when he had to return or when they grew back.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I have seen wire brushes put on ordinary strimmers and it cleans it up well. I would not say it has the same long-lasting effect as spraying but I was wondering had------

Mr. James Callery:

I would not expect it to have the same durability because treatments like that will kill off any vegetation above ground but not the roots. Certain weeds will bounce back within a period of time.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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What kind of cost is on the Foamstream machines?

Ms Mary Cahill:

It was not far off €30,000 and you still have to buy the oils. Also, the one we purchased runs on diesel. It is like a generator heating up the water and mixing it with the oil. There is the carbon footprint of the diesel. It was even more expensive for a rechargeable electric one.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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With the whole package, generator and all to heat water, you are probably closer to €40,000.

Ms Mary Cahill:

Yes. It is very good for playgrounds or graveyards, where mechanical machines might not be able to get in. You do not want to spray glyphosate in a playground or graveyard. It has its uses.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses have seen what one machine can do. For a council like Wicklow, how many machines would be needed to do the whole county? One machine will not do it.

Ms Mary Cahill:

We have five municipal districts so, to prevent any rows, we would want five.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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We are back into the expenses again. In terms of training in use of glyphosate, I was surprised to note there is the need for a course on the awareness and implications of applying it and the alternatives and safe storage of it. When we had the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in on this, we were told it was not in its remit to point out specific alternatives. There seems to be a gap in the communication. What can solve that?

Ms Mary Cahill:

I have made contact with Atlantic Technological University, ATU, in Sligo and think it may be interested in developing a course.

On the Department saying it is not in its remit to have alternatives, providing alternatives to the likes of a municipal district engineer is essential. They cannot just be told they cannot spray glyphosate any more. We have to have alternatives, which is why hopefully the results from Kildare's research project will inform the rest of the country.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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It surprised us to be told by the Department it was not in its remit. They knew the problems but it was not-----

Ms Mary Cahill:

The one thing that has kept coming back to us is "What else can I do?"

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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How is the app the council is developing going? Is there a possibility that such an app could be used by every local authority?

Ms Mary Cahill:

It could because it is linked to software called ArcGIS, which I would say most local authorities use for mapping. Many outdoor staff supervisors now have handheld units equipped with Prowork. It has been cleared with the unions to use that. It is a simple form and they fill out the details of where it is being applied. That can be uploaded to a map and we hope to have that public-facing. We are linking into another app on trees, which is with another policy we have worked on.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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How far advanced is the council with that app?

Ms Mary Cahill:

We have the form. I have raised it again with our HR section to raise it with the unions to make sure it, like Prowork, is okay to use. It is a simple form to be completed.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I return to the "Do"s and "Don't"s the council has established, which Ms Cahill raised in her opening remarks. The third point concerned the use of alternative chemicals and glyphosate-free products. We have raised this here before and I raised it with the Department when it was before the committee.

What is the process for the council to procure non-chemically-based products? There is quite a large range of them on the market. What is the process in which the council engages to secure and procure those products?

Ms Mary Cahill:

At the moment, a member of the outdoor staff can go to the local hardware and just purchase them.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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There is no bulk-buying of any particular chemical-free products.

Ms Mary Cahill:

No.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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If a member of the outdoor staff decides to trial a product that is chemical-free, there will be a trial area and it might be found that it works. What happens then if the council wants to purchase the product on a large scale, given it has five municipal district areas?

Ms Mary Cahill:

If it is on the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, frameworks, when we purchase items, we could use that. If it is not, we would just have to go to the local hardware to purchase it.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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That is fair enough. The reason I asked that has nothing to do with Wicklow specifically. It is to get our heads around the way in which we can get local authorities to explore non-chemically-based products. While there is big investment of €30,000 in Foamstream and other materials that the council has to acquire, there are products which could do what we want that are non-invasive and non-chemically based, and we should be looking at them. They may ultimately be cheaper than the products or materials the witnesses are talking about. We are going to return to that and it might be something we specifically examine in our report.

I greatly appreciate the engagement of the witnesses, not only with the committee in written format, but also the oral presentation today and the engagement on this very important topic. I do not think it gets enough discussion on a national basis. With specific regard to the remits of the two witnesses, graffiti removal is costly yet there are alternative ways of getting rid of it. Does the Wicklow local authority still provide kits for graffiti removal? I know some had done so in the past but do they still do that? I know I am somewhat off-topic.

Mr. James Callery:

It is done at a local level in the municipal district. The only district I am aware of that has been purchasing the kits is Bray municipal district. I am not sure if it is still buying them but it has in recent years purchased them to work with the Tidy Towns.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I presume it is more prominent in the north of the county than elsewhere. In saying that, what other methods are used? Is it mainly voluntary?

Mr. James Callery:

I do not have the details on it. I know there have been conversations between the Tidy Towns and the municipal district on exploring alternatives on the management of graffiti.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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It is really down to municipal district level. Would Mr. Callery be aware of the involvement of the Probation Service in regard to the removal of graffiti?

Mr. James Callery:

As far as I am aware, it is not involved. We have worked with the Probation Service on other projects like litter removal and the removal of illegal dumping, but not on graffiti.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Would this trial period be something the council could use to engage with the Probation Service? I am thinking in terms of cost and a process in which, right across the country, local authorities which are engaging in this could be helped to avail of some manual labour through the Probation Service?

Mr. James Callery:

It is possibly something that could be explored in doing trials of alternative techniques that need more labour. I am not sure how we could use the Probation Service on an ongoing basis for the management of this but, certainly, for trials, it is something we could explore.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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To go back to the all-Ireland pollinator plan and best practice use of pesticides, reference was made to 77 different types of bees, for example. In tandem with what we are talking about today, and in tandem with the council’s pollinator targets as a county, how is the council monitoring the progress of that? From 2016, there has been a six-year window for monitoring the impact that the pollinator plan, “slow to mow” and all of these other initiatives are having. How are they being monitored year on year?

Mr. James Callery:

It has proven to be challenging to monitor the all-Ireland pollinator plan actions. I know the heritage officer has been working to try to get staff to map the actions that they are doing. We are aware there are more actions happening than are actually mapped, and the feedback we were getting from staff involved is that they just did not get time to get around to mapping their actions. It is not a long process and it would take about ten minutes maximum to upload an action onto the map, but they are not finding the time to do it. Our heritage officer is herself trying to record some of the bigger actions that are happening in the county but we are conscious we do not have full records of every area.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses will be aware of the new investment with the National Parks and Wildlife Service on the encouraging of biodiversity. We have to monitor where we are going with this to ensure what we are doing and the learnings Ms Cahill is talking about are monitored so we know how we are progressing.

I will move to my final questions. I again thank both witnesses for their attendance today. In terms of the pesticide course they spoke of, how many of the staff in Wicklow County Council have attended that course? One of the documents mentioned that staff have to register with the Department once the course is done. Of the members of staff who have attended the course, have they all registered? Is the council going to explore amending by-laws in this regard, or has it already done so, to try to discourage or persuade people not to use these products?

Ms Mary Cahill:

We have not looked into amending by-laws. At the moment, this is just the policy for Wicklow County Council on public lands, so we have not gone down that road yet.

I do not have numbers for those who have attended the course. Anyone who would be applying it in municipal districts attended a three-day course, as I said in my statement. It has not been run since 2016. When I started asking questions about it, everybody said “Yes, I need to do that”, but I do not want to send all of the outdoor staff on a three-day course to be certified to apply glyphosate when we are trying to reduce the application of it. There is a bit of a Catch-22 there. I have agreed with the municipal district engineers that each district would send two people on that three-day certification course so they have someone who can apply it where it is needed for invasive species and so on. This is where we need another course for the rest of the staff for awareness and so we do not have any rogue staff.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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They are then registered with the Department as a matter of course.

Ms Mary Cahill:

The two who will be certified will be registered as professional users.

Mr. James Callery:

With regard to by-laws, more effective than by-laws is actually changing practice at community level. In the national Tidy Towns competition, we had one town that was very disappointed that an adjudicator commented on the use of herbicides in the town and said that would cost them marks. That is going to be a more effective tool, where we can use the carrot rather than enforcement.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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That is with a cohort who are compliant and who want to be compliant. The by-laws coming in could apply to the cohort who are not.

Mr. James Callery:

In this particular case, it was not the Tidy Towns committee themselves that were spraying; it was a residents association. What we are going to see there is the Tidy Towns putting pressure on the residents association to change their practice.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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That is a fight we will stay out of. I thank the witnesses.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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As I was called away for a vote, I missed some of the presentation. I am very interested in this area and, like others, I commend the witnesses on attending and on sharing their experiences with us. For me and for the other members, it is a learning experience and that is what we are here for. I know from my own county of Roscommon that there is now a lot of emphasis on biodiversity and we find that people are beginning to talk about it. They do not want to see products like glyphosate being sprayed around the place, which is good. I have a few questions but if they have been answered already, the witnesses should tell me that and I can get the information from the other committee members.

I am interested in the issue of buy-in from the public. How is that going? Does the council ever run workshops for the public or the schools? I had a question as to whether the council is completely glyphosate-free.

However, I understand that in certain cases it still has to be used with invasive species or whatever. I accept that. Regarding the buying of the machine, how expensive was that? How much of a budget does the council have for all this each year? Obviously it must be increasing its budget for this type of work to be done.

What the council is doing is commendable. I studied horticulture and in the years ahead I believe there will be many discussions about glyphosate, having read about it. One never hears the true stories until years have gone by. In my view, we should eliminate it everywhere we can. I know it is needed in some cases and farmers need it sometimes for weed control, but where we can eliminate it we should do so. However, is there buy-in from the public? Is there a programme through the schools? Young people are great. They are all into biodiversity, tunnels and so forth now. There is also the cost of the machine. How effective was the machine?

Mr. James Callery:

I will start with the awareness issue and working with communities and schools. They are key partners of Wicklow County Council in delivering the message on environmental awareness. We have worked with the schools in the county over the years through the green schools programme and other activities. We have an awards scheme every year for our tidy towns, estates and schools. We have schools awards on biodiversity and community awards on biodiversity.

We have a tidy estates competition, which traditionally was just about how tidy and well-kept the estate is. We have changed that in recent years and we have asked them to comment on their management practice. We are looking for information on whether they are managing for pollinators and avoiding the use of herbicides, and that is taken into account in the judging and marking of that competition. It is changing the attitudes and behaviour within our residents' associations across the county.

We also work very closely with Tidy Towns. As mentioned, we do an annual event, a seminar, where we get the Tidy Towns and other interested community representatives in and we provide expert speakers. This year we covered the all-Ireland pollinator plan, Let's Get Buzzing, as part of our event.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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Let's Get Buzzing - that is good.

Ms Mary Cahill:

Regarding the cost, there is a lot more cost involved with this policy and other policies we have introduced. The foam stream machine cost almost €30,000. We still do not have full feedback on its success. Wicklow County Council does not have a parks department, unlike Dún Laoghaire which was mentioned by Deputy Devlin and which has quite a large parks department. We do not. We are the poor neighbour.

A lot of the budgets are filtered out through the municipal districts for managing this type of thing. They are aware that their budgets will have to be increased next year, so our local property tax, LPT, meeting will be very interesting.

Eugene Murphy (Fianna Fail)
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The garden county is leading the way. I thank the witnesses for their replies.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Does Deputy Devlin have more questions?

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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No, I have asked the questions I wanted to ask.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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I have no more questions, so I thank our guests for the presentation they gave. Do you have any closing statements or final comments?

Ms Mary Cahill:

The only comment I have is that much of the discussion was about cost and the additional costs associated with this. We introduced a tree policy this year as well, with a lot of extra associated costs. We just have to look at the benefits we are getting from it. That is all I can say.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you for attending today. It is a discussion that has been beneficial for all of us. On the last occasion we heard from Mr. Walsh and now we have been given the county council's point of view. We have received very good feedback from all the councils. As Deputy Devlin said earlier, a lot of work can still be done and it will go into the report when we are doing it.

Cormac Devlin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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If there are any other elements that our guests think could contribute to that report, they might engage with the committee. We certainly would welcome any feedback they encounter in the interim. It is important for all of us.

Ms Mary Cahill:

Yes, absolutely.

Martin Browne (Tipperary, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you again.