Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 15 June 2022
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach
Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I remind members of the note on privilege. Those on the Leinster House campus are covered by full privilege and those who are not have limited privilege. I remind them of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.
The minutes of out last meeting held on 1 June were adopted in private session.
I welcome the officials from the Department of Expenditure and Reform. There will be an opening statement and an engagement with members.
Mr. David Moloney:
I thank the committee for the invitation to attend the meeting today and I am happy to have this opportunity to discuss the Civil Service secondment policy and related matters with the committee. In this context, it is important that the committee is aware that the secondment circular issued by my Department last year is for the Civil Service. I will comment on certain other secondments but my Department’s role in sanctioning secondments under this policy is only within the Civil Service.
In relation to secondment, the Civil Service secondment policy and associated terms were introduced in December 2021. They were designed to complement the Civil Service mobility scheme, which is for permanent moves between Civil Service organisations, in that it enables the filling of positions concurrent with a strategic project/placement that require specialist knowledge and skill sets for a defined period. The policy recognises that a number of administrative arrangements had evolved across the Civil Service over time and was not intended to replace such sector-specific arrangements.
Secondments facilitate the release and movement of staff and may provide opportunities for staff to broaden their skills and continue their professional and personal development while retaining the right to return to their substantive or equivalent position. It is a valuable arrangement that facilitates shared learning, good practice and new ideas.
Currently there are 17 staff of my Department that are seconded in from the civil or public service and there are 19 staff of my Department that are seconded out to the civil or public service. Included in these numbers are two staff members who are seconded out to administrative roles in the third level sector. One member of staff is seconded to Dublin City University and the other is seconded to the Technological Higher Education Association.
Also included is one staff member who is seconded in to my Department from National University of Ireland, Galway as a researcher as part of the Science Foundation Ireland programme.
While the policy applies for secondments in the Civil Service, the policy also provides that the same principles should apply to secondment arrangements between a parent Department and a non-Civil Service body. It is not a requirement for public service bodies, as distinct from Civil Service organisations, to seek sanction from my Department to fill a position through secondment. That is a matter between the public service body and its parent Department.
Correspondence from the committee referred to recent secondments to third level institutions. In respect of the recent secondments of two former Secretaries General to posts in third-level institutions, on the expiry of his term as Secretary General, Dr. Fergal Lynch moved on secondment to NUI Galway. On the expiry of Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú’s term as Secretary General he moved on secondment to NUI Maynooth.
These appointments were in line with Government decisions dating from October 2011 regarding the offer of an alternative position in the civil or public service or an international institution at a salary equivalent to Secretary General until preserved pension age and that retirement before that age would not be the norm. These terms are reflected in the advertisement booklets for Secretary General posts. Both secondments are time-limited, for periods less than five years.
Responsibility for third level institutions is a matter for the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation, and Science in the first instance. More generally however, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is involved in a number of ongoing cross-sectoral initiatives that aim to strengthen links between the Civil Service and the university sector in the area of public policy development. In this regard, I draw the joint committee’s attention to a number of such initiatives being pursued by the Irish Government Economic and Evaluation Service, IGEES. IGEES operates under the aegis of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and its collaboration with academia is facilitated through the IGEES external advisory group, which consists of representatives from universities, the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council and the Nevin Economic Research Institute, NERI.
IGEES seeks to further foster knowledge transfers and skills development of IGEES policy analysis by building more extensive networks across academia, through collaborative research, a research fund and various different events.
The secondments of Dr. Lynch and Mr. Ó Foghlú support, inter alia, progressing the work programme in this policy area, including links to the work being carried out under the Civil Service Renewal 2030 Strategy, led by my Department, and the recently established joint initiative of the Department of An Taoiseach and my Department, Strengthening Policy Development and Strategic Foresight in the Irish Public Service, which is a project being supported by the OECD.
Previous correspondence of the committee also referred to the proposed secondment of the Chief Medical Officer. On this matter, my Department received a sanction request from the Department of Health on 31 March. As part of this request, the Department of Health indicated the outgoing CMO would be moving to Trinity College Dublin to take up a professorship on a long-term secondment at the end of June and that it was expected that the secondment would continue until his retirement. No further detail or material was provided in relation to that secondment. As is usual with such requests, there was subsequent engagement at official level between my Department and the Department of Health in relation to it, and in relation to the funding aspects of it. Following the announcement of the CMO of his intention to retire in July, the proposed secondment and associated arrangements were not of relevance to the sanction request for a replacement CMO and a letter of sanction for the post of the CMO issued from my Department on 21 April. The subsequent report prepared by the Department of Health acknowledges that elements of the arrangements were not communicated well. The independent review commissioned by the Minister for Health into the process related to the proposed secondment is ongoing and is a matter for that Department.
I trust this is of assistance to the committee and I am happy to take any questions members may have.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh míle maith agat as ucht teacht ós comhair an choiste chun an ábhar seo a phlé. I thank Mr. Moloney for coming in front of the committee to discuss this topic. To start off on secondments, the crux of the issue that people have been querying over the last number of weeks and months is in relation to a temporary nature of a secondment. If we look at the HR section on the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform's website, it states that a secondment is a temporary arrangement that facilitates the release and movement of staff members for a specified period of time in a way which does not affect their employment status. It goes on to note that the maximum time period for this temporary arrangement is five years. The circular Mr. Moloney referenced was published on the 31 December 2021. Does this differ from previous circulars in relation to secondments because I, and people generally, would understand that a secondment is of a temporary nature? Can Mr. Moloney comment on that? Does he see a secondment as a temporary situation?
Mr. David Moloney:
I thank the Deputy. The purpose of trying to formalise the secondment policy in the circular, which is, I think, the first time it was done, was to try to clarify some of the issues that arose over time, where secondments were conducted in a variety of different ways. In effect, many secondments became permanent by being rolled over on a continual basis. The Civil Service mobility scheme, which was introduced and now covers all general service grades between clerical officer and assistant secretary, formalises the process of permanently transferring staff between Departments in the Civil Service. Therefore, the remaining bit for secondment policy to do, outside of niche areas, specialist expertise or long-standing arrangements that are in place, is to try to regularise how temporary secondments take place.
There is a further complication in that where we second from the Civil Service to an outside body, the terms and conditions such as pension and other entitlements sometimes need to be maintained through a secondment arrangement and in some cases - for example, the two cases of Secretaries General I mentioned - that would make the secondment time limited but there is not an anticipation return to the Department.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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In theory secondments are supposed to be temporary but in practice sometimes they are not. Is it a technical matter? Is that what Mr. Moloney is saying? Sometimes secondments are forever. Does Mr. Moloney think there is a concern in relation to that? Does he think there needs to be further clarity to make it very clear how secondments work if they are to an external body, as mentioned, and if they are basically long term?
Mr. David Moloney:
Yes. This is our first attempt to try to bring clarity to this, just within the Civil Service. Many of the issues that have arisen are in relation to proposed secondments between the Civil Service and the wider public service. That is an area we can certainly look at. The one thing I would say is that there is a huge number of secondments, they are really valuable to the system and they occur in a huge variety of different circumstances. They occur in many different ways - for example, with international institutions, with the Irish Government Economic Evaluation Service, the Attorney General's office and the Central Statistics Office. Experts are seconded for periods of time into Government offices. On occasion, those experts become quite imbedded in those Government offices and the secondment evolves in a way that makes it permanent. What we are trying to do is to twin mobility and secondment policy. We are trying to make all of that more transparent and make the conditions under which that could happen clearer. The mobility policy is preferred as the vehicle to achieve permanent transfers and secondment policy, by and large, is there to facilitate temporary transfers.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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What would other examples be of secondments being used on a permanent basis?
Mr. David Moloney:
Quite often where somebody is seconded to an international organisation, such as the European Commission, traditionally, they would go on secondment but, in effect, they would be seconded there on a very long-term basis. Sometimes people would spend their whole career in an international institution-----
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Why exactly is secondment used for that?
Mr. David Moloney:
This is because the person going to the EU institution would retain the rights to return to the domestic Civil Service and retain their rights to the pension and other pay-related benefits.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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What impact would that have on hiring someone else to replace them, if they were technically gone for the whole time? Say, for example, I was in the role just below somebody who was seconded and everyone knew they would be gone the entire time. What impact would that have on me? Would I be taking on the duties and responsibilities but not the actual role?
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Could that cause an issue if the person came back?
Mr. David Moloney:
What happens when the person comes back is that it is often a condition of the secondment that they would not have an automatic right to go back to the job they left, but that they would go back to an equivalent job. The person would give notice that they were coming back and then a suitable, equivalent job is what they would go back into.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Of the current secondments, how many are at Secretary General and assistant secretary general grade? Does Mr. Moloney have a figure of the number of people who have gone on secondment because that is the kind of thing we have been talking about? He mentioned some in his opening statement.
Mr. David Moloney:
We do not. We only get the sanctions for secondments within the Civil Service. We do not have data on broader secondments. The only two Secretaries General secondments of which I am aware are the two I mentioned.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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That is fair. Some of the questions have already been answered but in relation to the secondments Mr. Moloney mentioned to Maynooth University and the National University of Ireland, Galway, these are secondments that have been raised with us and people have asked serious enough questions. It is easier to be frank and honest with Mr. Moloney and to ask these questions. Concerns have been raised that the job descriptions for the work being carried out in both of these roles are very similar and both reference, as was said, the Civil Service renewal strategy, furthering public policy and so on. What appears to be the case, or at least publicly - maybe Mr. Moloney has other information - is that there is a question on what actual research they are carrying out. I know some academics and different people working in the field have been asking that same question. To be fair, it is a valid question. Would I be right in saying the two individuals would be too young to have full pension rights?
I do not mean to reflect badly on anyone or anything like that but the following question has been raised. Are the secondments being used to allow early-retiring senior officials who do not have full pension rights a way of maintaining their incomes? As I said, this is not to reflect on either of the two people; I would just like to hear Mr. Moloney's thoughts and views on that because it is something that is being raised with us and this point needs to be addressed frankly.
Mr. David Moloney:
I will take the last point first. The Government decision in 2011 was a clear one. It said that when a retiring Secretary General reaches the end of their term and has not yet reached preserved pension age, the minimum pension age, the Government may offer them an alternative position. In the case of the two Secretaries General we are talking about, the Government made the decision late last year to do that. It is a term and condition of the appointment of Secretaries General since 2011. It is detailed in the Public Appointments Service, PAS, booklets on those competitions that at the end of their term, if they have not reached full retirement age, the Government can choose to offer them a post in the Civil Service, the public service or an international institution. That is the policy that has been in place since 2011.
The Deputy said that concerns have been raised about the similarity of the roles and there is a similarity. Having decided to offer these two people a post, the Government took the opportunity to further one of the Civil Service renewal actions in public policy and improving public policy and particularly in terms of developing communities of practice that link in the academic sector with our work in the Civil Service and with Enterprise Ireland and other researchers. We do part of that through IGEES but we want to do more of it under the banner of Civil Service and public service reform. This was an opportunity to place them in universities and develop those networks. Within my Department they are both involved in public service reform and there are slightly different public service reform aspects to this work. One of the retired Secretaries General is involved in the organisational capability reviews and is chairing the group of Secretaries General who drive and oversee the organisational capability reviews. For example one such review has been done in the Department of Defence and one has been done in the Office of Public Works, OPW. The other retired Secretary General is more involved in a specific OECD project on strategic foresight, evidence-based policies and the structure and hierarchy of the Civil Service. Both jobs are a mixture of a role within the university, networking and an attempt to build a greater community partnership within academia and the Civil Service and public service. The elements of reform involved in each post are slightly different, as I have described.
Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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That is interesting and that probably covers most of my questions. Mr. Moloney is saying he is fully confident that they have a great job of work there and about the research they are carrying out. In fairness Mr. Moloney has given more detail on that there but sometimes we need to be honest about these things because we have unfortunately had a history in this State of a huge lack of transparency in appointments to roles. It would be beneficial for that information on the research they are carrying out to be provided in a more open and transparent way. This matter has been raised with us in the committee by certain people as they have not been able to get that information. It is important that this information be readily available to people.
That rule on Secretaries General is quite interesting and I would say that a lot of people watching on would say that it is not a bad gig if you can get it. It is good that you have provided that clarity on the work that is being done. I thank Mr. Moloney.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Moloney and his staff for coming before the committee. I agree with him when he says there are benefits to secondments in staff being able to broaden their skills and continue their professional and personal development. Would I be correct in saying that we have an issue in Ireland with retired Secretaries General and what to do with them when their seven years are up and they have not reached retirement age?
Mr. David Moloney:
I thank the Deputy for the question. We have a policy in place on that since 2011. The December 2011 decision on this sets out what to do with retired Secretaries General and it offers a number of options. In practice the option to extend the term of Secretaries General has often been taken. There is the option of reassigning them within the Civil Service and public service and the option of seconding them to another position in the Civil Service, in the public service or in an international institution is also there. The 2011 decision is clear that the object is not to make the retirement of Secretaries General at the end of their terms before preserved pension age the standard and usual practice. I understand the question but I see it slightly differently, in terms of it being part of the terms and conditions under which the posts are advertised. There is a clear understanding that at the end of your term, these different options exist to take you up to preserved pension age, which is what both of the cases we discussed today involve. In explaining that policy, that is seen in an overall context where it would potentially be difficult to recruit people into those roles if they did not have a path at the end of their terms. That is something the performance review group has identified as an issue. It is also something the de Buitléir group that the Government has recently established to review senior public service recruitment and pay processes is looking at. The treatment of Secretaries General at end of term in this context is one of the issues the group will look at, among the gamut of processes around the appointment of and remuneration for Secretaries General.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The reason I asked the question is that I am conscious, as I am sure Mr. Moloney is, that in recent times we have had two Secretaries General who have gone on to become ambassadors. The Secretaries General referred to in Mr. Moloney’s submission to the committee have gone on into third level institutions. All of them are highly qualified and talented people but the impression I get as a Deputy is that suitable jobs are being looked for to see what we can do with this talented person whose seven years is up and where can that policy go. Are the options that are available to retired Secretaries General getting broader?
Mr. David Moloney:
The 2011 policy replaces an earlier policy which would, in the main, have given one ten years added service and put one into pension payment immediately. The 2011 policy was created in the context that people were not happy that people before preserved retirement age were immediately put into significant pensions. The policy decision was taken that instead of giving added years, alternative posts would be offered up to pension age. That is why it might appear to be more frequent; this policy is only in place since 2011.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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When did the seven-year term for Secretaries General come in? I should know that myself and I apologise that I do not.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Between 1984 and 2011, from Mr. Moloney's recollection what was the general pathway for Secretaries General whose seven years had expired but who had not reached retirement age? Where did they generally go?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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So they retired.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Prior to 2011, the vast majority of them, having done their terms as Secretaries General, retired irrespective of their age. Would that be fair to say?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The point that Mr. Moloney is making to the committee is that this is as a result of the changes brought in during 2011 as a result of the financial crisis at that time. Does that mean they simply cannot retire if they want to avail of their full pension entitlement?
Mr. David Moloney:
Up to the 2011 policy change they would have been entitled to retire at 50 and immediately get the full pension. However many years of service they had, which might be 30 years if they were 50 years-old, they would get ten added years and they would get a full pension. A Secretary General currently serving who retired at 50 would get a pension of a large amount of money immediately.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Prior to the secondment of individuals to third level institutions and as ambassadors, had that happened prior to recent times? Had retiring Secretaries General gone to academia or the diplomatic corps?
The Deputy will understand I do not have full visibility but, as I understand it, it is a common enough practice within the Department of Foreign Affairs that the Secretary General of that Department would take up an ambassadorship-----
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The individuals are fine individuals and I make no criticism of them. My understanding is that one of them was from the Department of Foreign Affairs and another was outside that Department. Is that something that is generally seen as being available to retiring Secretaries General, that they can become an ambassador? I am not asking Mr. Moloney to disclose any interests he may have in the future.
Mr. David Moloney:
No. I will hopefully reach preserved retirement age by the end my term. It is an option. It was a 2011 decision. If you were appointed post 2011, you served seven years and got a three year extension. That is why these issues are arising now. Reflecting on the experience of them for the first time in 2021 and 2022, the independent review panel has an opportunity to look at those issues and to make an assessment of them.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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When it comes to appointment as an ambassador, these are jobs that are not generally advertised. They may be notified internally in the Department of Foreign Affairs. I can understand why they would not be advertised. In respect of someone who is going into an academic institution, the policy issue or the public concern voiced by many Members of the House of the Oireachtas was that if a Secretary General, or a very high-ranking civil servant, was going to go into a third level academic institution, that is all well and proper but there should be an opportunity for others to apply for the position being filled. What would Mr. Moloney say to that?
Mr. David Moloney:
Again, it is back to the 2011 policy which is where we started. The Government decision means someone can be offered a post to the end of their term and the subsequent Government decision agreed that with the two individuals involved. In a sense and in general terms, the policy of advertisement and competition for posts is absolutely correct policy but in specific terms, the 2011 decision creates a policy framework where retiring Secretaries General, before preserved pension age, may be offered a position.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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From the point of view of the third level institution, it is not costing it anything in terms of taking on the Secretary General in a new position. Is that a fair assessment?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The payment of the Secretaries General involved are made by the third level institution but obviously they are funded by the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science.
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I thank Mr. Moloney.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Deputy O'Callaghan have a question around the Members and their retirement? Where do Members go when they retire?
Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The next time we are looking for an ambassador to the United States, we should start by looking at chairmen of committees like yourself.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I think so, yes. It is unusual that there would be all these concerns expressed about Secretaries General, who are reasonably well-paid and so on, but no one is concerned about the future of the Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas who make, or are supposed to make, the policy. I thought Deputy O'Callaghan might have raised that question.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That was an interesting conversation. I wish to point out that I probably have a different view from other people on this issue. The people who have served their full-time, or not yet served their full-time, in the public service, may still have something to offer and it should not be lost. Their experience and their ability should not be consigned to the waste. They still have a lot to offer and while secondment may be an emotive issue, it does not take away from the fact that as, I think, Galbraith used to say, members of the older generation still have a lot to offer and although they may require longer holidays, they still could offer a great deal in terms of experience that should remain available to the public sector in the event that the public sector was of a mind to accept it.
There is a possibility that we have become "soundbite-ist", for want of a better description, in terms of our reaction as public representatives. I do not contribute to that at all. There was a situation in the military sector once upon a time where an army officer or anybody serving in the army would, after 21 years, avail of a full pension and go elsewhere. That had the double effect of renewing the membership of the Defence Forces on a regular basis. Without any particular intervention, people went elsewhere. People, however, decided to change that and said it was not fair that some people were offered this concession, despite the fact that the original intention was to achieve the result of getting people to retire from the Defence Forces and giving them an incentive to do so.
I refer to taking the soundbites, the emotionalism and the populism out of it. Everybody will oppose somebody getting something they think they should not get. I know we have to protect ourselves and the integrity of the public sector but at the same time, we should keep in mind that the people retiring may still have something to offer. The best way to utilise or to harness that energy, experience and enthusiasm, or whatever, needs to be found. We have not always found it. There are particular options open to some people, such as the Secretaries General referred to, in some Departments, but we need to look further and see how we can utilise those people's services to a greater extent.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is. I agree.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Uasal Moloney chuig an gcoiste. A lot has been asked so I am not going to go over old ground in relation to this but I have one or two questions that I would like to ask on the secondment policy within the public service. We have looked at and discussed the recent circular stating that secondments are not supposed to be for more than five years. If he has not already done so, can Mr. Moloney tell the committee how many secondments of over five years are in existence in the public sector?
Mr. David Moloney:
I am afraid we only have, since the operation of this policy, information on sanctions within the Civil Service. That is only since the end of last year. We do not have a role in secondment in the wider public sector generally and we do not have the data on it. Secondments are, as I said, very commonly used in order to generate knowledge and broaden experience. I am afraid I do not have the numbers.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform deals not just with the Civil Service but with the public sector as well. Does the Department have any insight into what is happening in terms of secondments within the public sector? Obviously, the title of the Department includes reform so is there any way for the committee to find out whether there is 5,000, 10,000 or 50,000 secondments or whether 8,000 of them have been for a duration of nine years? Are there people who have been seconded and have been forgotten all about? The committee would like to know some of this data. Is it possible to have it collated?
Mr. David Moloney:
The Deputy is quite right. The Department has an interest in public service reform, end to end, right across the public service. Our responsibilities as an employer are related to the Civil Service so when we talk about having information on the Civil Service it is because we are the employer of the civil servants. Whereas in the wider public sector, you are probably the employer of the board of your particular part of the public sector. The HSE board is probably the employer for a lot of the HSE. The Department does not have the HR data outside of the Civil Service. In terms of whether it could be collected, it is certainly an issue we could discuss, for example, at the public service leadership board. Again, there is a very wide variety of public service organisations across 360,000 people so it is quite a data exercise. We could look to see what insights might be gleaned and it might, in fact, be a natural next step to the review of the secondment policy that we are due to do after six months - in effect, starting next month in any case.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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It would be extremely helpful to get a sense of where we are at this point in time. As parliamentarians, we can table questions to every Department and agency and ask them how many secondments they have but I expect it would be better if that was collated by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and presented to the committee rather than us doing it individually, which we can do and I might do that. It is important to get a sense of where we are at and, in particular, whether there are long-term secondments that should no longer be secondments, whereby people probably have been in those roles for so long that those positions should be permanent. With permanency comes particular conditions. Has Mr. Moloney found that to be the case in the Civil Service and in the public sector or has he got an insight into any of this?
Mr. David Moloney:
What I said earlier is probably relevant in this context. With the development of a mobility policy for all grades between clerical officer and assistant secretary, we would like that to be the mechanism within the Civil Service that is used for permanent assignments because we think that is much more open, transparent and clearer. We would like secondments to be predominantly temporary, although we recognise there is a great variety of secondments and they have different characteristics, and we set out some exceptions in the guidance. The difference between seconding somebody and permanently moving somebody is sometimes to do with the different terms and conditions that can occur. For example, we only have a mobility policy for the general grade civil servants. We do not yet have a mobility policy for the professional and technical grades. For particular areas of specialism, there would be worries for people involved about how much they carried their existing terms and conditions with them but that is all there to be worked through and we are working through it for the technical professional grades for the Civil Service. Certainly, those lessons can be taken on board in our review and in how we might progress that for the wider public sector.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Some of those elected to the Dáil or the Seanad can avail of a type of secondment. If one worked in the public sector prior to be elected to one of these Houses, is it not the case that position remains open to that person? Is Mr. Moloney familiar with that?
Mr. David Moloney:
There is a number of arrangements. They are generally called special leave arrangements. They would apply, as the Deputy said, to public representatives. They could apply to jobs in international institutions. There are various special leave without pay arrangements that can maintain that entitlement to come back into an equivalent role.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Is it Mr. Moloney's view those special arrangements should be of an indefinite nature as they are at present? Mr. Moloney can correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is a teacher - not to pick on teachers as my three sisters and my wife are teachers - could be elected as a Member of the Oireachtas and 25 years later, having lost the job, that person could return to teaching as the position would have been kept open for that person. Does Mr. Moloney believe a timeframe should apply to these special leave arrangements?
Mr. David Moloney:
The justification for them is not to discourage people. It is quite a big step to be a teacher, then get elected as a public representative for four years and not to have a permanent job to which to return. It is not that the teaching job is not filled. It is filled and when one is prepared to go back to being a teacher again, an available teaching job will be allocated to the person. It Is not that the job the person left 40 years ago is still there waiting for that person. It is that the person has an entitlement to come back to a teaching post or an equivalent post.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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My understanding is it is the job the person left that is available to the person because the position that is backfilled is a temporary position. The person who backfills it is not given permanency and that is a problem. There is an issue in terms of workers’ rights.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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To move away from the Houses of the Oireachtas and turn to the public service and Civil Service, I am familiar with cases where, for example, a professional working in a publicly-funded hospital but not one that comes under the remit of the HSE has been seconded to the Department or the HSE and that person's hospital position would have been backfilled but it would only be on a temporary basis because it the post holder is on secondment. The professional can return to that role when the secondment finishes. I know of cases where five or six years later, a professional backfilling that position is still temporary. The consequences of that are significant. If a person want to get a mortgage, he or she will not get one on having a non-secure employment position. People are seconded for long durations over a five-year period and the backfilling of those positions is still temporary. Is that fair in this day and age in terms of the public sector and those publicly funded institutions such as our hospitals? It is no wonder people are seeking more permanency and travelling across the water in some cases.
Mr. David Moloney:
Within the Civil Service, which is the area with which I am familiar, in general, we avoid those situations where we can. Sometimes it means the person returning to a position faces a delay or has to go into a different but equivalent job. Even in terms of the relevant legal provisions, maintaining somebody on a temporary basis but really permanently is undesirable and questionable. That certainly is not the intention of the Civil Service policy.
Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the fact that in the Civil Service that is not the case but I would encourage Mr. Moloney to take it to the next step. Let us have a bird’s eye view of where we are at with secondments, which is an important role in the transferring of experience and so on. I would like to know if there are people who have been seconded for ten years and if so, perhaps those should be permanent positions now. I know of a case of a former Deputy who was a member of Deputy Durkan’s party and who used to be my headmaster. The person who replaced him in the school was temporary. That is happening in the public sector. People with professional degrees in our health sector, having been five or six years in the position, are not able to get a permanent contract because the position they are filling was vacated by somebody who was seconded to another position. Two jobs of work need to be done. We need to get an idea of where we are at with secondments and with the backfilling of roles. We also need to apply the same principles Mr. Moloney mentioned that apply to the Civil Service to the public sector and those publicly funded bodies. That would be helpful in recruiting and retaining some of those key personnel we need. I thank Mr. Moloney for that.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the public service versus the Civil Service, Mr. Moloney said the circular letter of 2021 relates to the Civil Service only. What is the process for ensuring there is a similar type of policy shared by the public sector?
Mr. David Moloney:
The Civil Service versus public service distinction is around the employer. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform really is the employer of civil servants. Public servants are employed by the governing body of whatever organisations they are in, by the board generally. What we try to do through the public service reform and through the public service leadership board is to articulate and consult on the policies being developed for civil servants and encourage public service bodies to adopt like policies.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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These public service bodies are generally agencies of a Department. In terms of the circular letter that was issued, it is interesting to hear the explanation being offered that it applied only to civil servants and, therefore, the public service was left to one side.
That is not good practice. If we are expecting one policy to be followed by a civil servant, any agency that comes under a Department should at least share, in a general way, that Civil Service policy. Otherwise, a completely different approach is adopted to different actions that might be taken, be it secondment or whatever it might be. Relative to the current issue of the Secretaries General where one was to be seconded and the other who was seconded, it appears now that circular does not cover them. Is that right?
Mr. David Moloney:
There are a few points there. First, the secondment policy is one for the Civil Service because in terms of our governance and legislative function, that is what our function is. On the other hand, the policy contains within it the hope, exactly as the Chairman said, that the public service bodies would follow the lead of that policy. That is very much the framework we use.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In this case the hope has not succeeded because this has now been put forward as a distinction. The circular applied to a civil servant but it does not apply to a body that is part of the public service. What process is in place to make sure the hope Mr. Moloney has that the public service will follow the line of the Civil Service in respect of the policy, and the letter that was issued in 2021, will be followed, adhered to or, in general, be the guideline for what the public service will do?
Mr. David Moloney:
The two secondments of the civil servants we talked about broadly fit within the policy set alongside the Government decision. In terms of the public service and it following the policy, this is a policy that has been approved by the Civil Service Management Board and the Secretary General of each Department is in a position to encourage the bodies under its aegis to use it. We do that with quite a number policies in terms of general standards and guidelines. However, we must respect the fact that the legislation gives the HSE board governance responsibilities over the HSE. We have many different avenues to push out these guidelines and encourage bodies to align with them. Broadly speaking, within the particular context, bodies are happy to do that. The blended working framework is one of the more recent examples.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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To return to Mr. Moloney Department, he said, in his opening statement, "my Department's role in sanctioning secondments ..." therefore, he sanctions them. What does he look at when sanctioning a particular secondment?
Mr. David Moloney:
We ask the proposer of the secondment what they have done in terms of what need they have identified, have they identified whether there is anyone in their organisation who could fulfil that need and in what way they intend to operationalise the secondment - for example, will they use an advertisement through the Public Appointments Service, PAS?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would Mr. Moloney cover such matters as the salary for the person?
Mr. David Moloney:
The general principle we adopt in the Civil Service is that the salary is not related to the person, it is related to the post.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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When Mr. Moloney considers the person holding the post in the Civil Service or in the public service who is about to be seconded to a university, what would he look at in terms of that sanction? Is it as broad as what he has just said and that is it? Does he consider the knock-on effects of that person departing their role, will that person be paid by the Department or by the university and if there are any other strings or costs attached to it? Does he go into that type of examination?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The example is obvious. The reason we are having this discussion today is because of the arrangement that was being made with Trinity College.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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You did.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is it fair to say Mr. Moloney, as the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, you knew nothing about this prior to the request for sanctioning having been made by the Department of Health?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was Mr. Moloney in any way alarmed by the initial suggestion of the secondment, the salary and the other financial attachments to that position?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There was no engagement.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. There was no engagement prior that and what about after 31 March?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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When did he decide to retire?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Three weeks after 31 March. Therefore, nothing happened in that three-week period.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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From Mr. Moloney's knowledge of it, it was not something that came across his radar. Was it dealt with by the section?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There was a lack of engagement on the funding aspect.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is clear that now we know there was a lack of engagement regarding the funding arrangements.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Moloney just said there was a lack of engagement on the funding arrangements-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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-----so there was no funding arrangement, no funding proposal.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes but that funding arrangement would be part of the consideration in terms of the secondment, I presume.
Mr. David Moloney:
We did not get a proposal so I am only going by what I see in committees and what I read in the newspapers but it appears the two issues were linked. Certainly we would have preferred earlier engagement on the funding issue but normally funding issues would not be that linked to a secondment.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Funding issues of five years at €2 million or of five years the cost of a salary or more, or for a longer period of time, must surely have been an issue somewhere. Correct me if I am wrong but-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No one ever proposed that. That is fine. We can leave it at that.
In terms of anyone going on secondment to the Civil Service or public service, does that person's salary continue to be paid by either the parent Department or by the Department itself if the person is a Secretary General?
Mr. David Moloney:
The policy states in the case of secondments between the Civil Service and public service and secondments within public service bodies the human resources, HR, pay and other arrangements are for discussion between the two parties. There would be a discussion about that. Regarding the two Secretaries General secondments we spoke about earlier, both of those are being paid for by the university.
They are on the payroll of the universities. Obviously, they are funded through the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science Vote.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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While they are being paid for by the universities, they are also being paid for, in some of the cases, by the Department of Education.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would it be the case that any of the Secretaries General who are on secondment would continue to be paid by the Departments they are leaving? In other words, they would go to the university-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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They leave and there is no further cost on the relevant Department as far as they are concerned. It comes out of the Department of Education's budget. Is that the same level of salary?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If, therefore, I am on a certain salary when I go on secondment, I will continue to get paid that same level of salary.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the whole idea of secondment in terms of the knowledge that is shared by those who go into the public sector or a field of education or those who perhaps share with enterprise. That person is sharing knowledge he or she gained in the Civil Service or the public service. That is understood. How do they bring that knowledge back to the relevant Department? In terms of education, a person might have been in Trinity College Dublin or wherever. Where is the value in that for Departments?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, or any secondment. A person is there to share information and knowledge. How does any Department benefit from having this arrangement?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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To whom and where?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is what I am trying to get at. When the people who are seconded to these positions come back into their Departments, the hope then is that they bring back the knowledge and experience they garnered through that new position and that they open up, as it were, the view of their Departments on different things. How many of them have come back? Would it have been expected that the two Secretaries General who have gone on secondment would come back at some stage and share that knowledge?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would Mr. Moloney have expected, say, one of the Secretaries General who are currently on secondment, without naming them, to come back?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is my point.
Mr. David Moloney:
The Chairman should bear in mind that there is engagement over the course of the secondment. Both are involved in the civil and public service reform process in the ways I described earlier. Both are involved with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science in trying to create this community of practice about which I spoke earlier. Our hope is that during their period of secondment, and they are senior leaders in their field, they will feed into the public sector reform process and into greater engagement between academia and the public service generally.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is there any big-ticket item Mr. Moloney can think of in terms of reform that was caused by this exchange of knowledge between one position and another when a Secretary General or person who was on secondment came back? Secondments have gone on for so many years and involved so many people. Deputy Doherty is trying to get to the bottom of that in terms of how many there are. Are they still there? Who is paying them? What knowledge did they bring back? I have not seen a great deal of reform in the Civil Service which suggests to me that some magnificent piece of information came back that caused reform to happen.
Mr. David Moloney:
I would respectfully say that there has been considerable reform in the Civil Service and public service over that last decade. Of course, we are continuing a process of public sector reform and transformation. Where we are with ICT and digital, skills development, staff, managerial expertise, shared knowledge and back office function has changed very significantly over that period.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That would have come from that shared experience and information coming back. It would have helped the direction.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is grand. I am anxious to learn about this. Mr. Moloney covered the part in his opening statement in which he spoke about the public service and the Civil Service. He might tell me about the public sector leadership board. How does that function?
Mr. David Moloney:
I chair the public sector leadership board, which comprises the Secretaries General of a number of Departments and the heads of the main agencies that fall under the remit of those Departments, namely, the Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces, the Garda Commissioner, the chief executive officer of the HSE, etc. The board meets on a regular basis - three to four times per year - and seeks to further the actions in the public service reform programme. It has a particular focus on equality, diversion and inclusion, EDI, initiatives across the public service, for example, and developing a toolkit for organisations with which they can address EDI policies. It has only been established since 2018 or 2019. It is a forum in which we hope to drive many of the things the Chairman talked about such as good practice and shared learning throughout the civil and public service.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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All the Secretaries General are on that board and then there are outside agencies, one of them obviously being the HSE. How many people are on that board?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The board meets three or four time per year.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the practice of Secretaries General being appointed as ambassadors a normal thing? I heard Mr. Moloney's earlier exchange with Deputy O'Callaghan.
Mr. David Moloney:
All these appointments are regular in accordance with the relevant Government decisions. The point I made to Deputy O'Callaghan was that there was a tradition within the Department of Foreign Affairs, in particular, whereby a retired Secretary General from that Department would often take up an ambassadorial post at the end of his or her term.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is that still the case? Obviously, it is.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I will go back to the recruitment of Secretaries General in Departments. The arrangement of a secondment during which a Secretary General retires and is not of pension age is part of the offer in terms of the job.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How long has that been in place?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What happened before then?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Did that policy come through the public sector leadership board or something of its kind?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is what I am saying. Was it some other entity like that or was it Government policy?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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From 1987.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I want to understand this. There are not many jobs like that are there? For example, if you are given a seven-year term as a Secretary General and if you reach the end of that seven years before retirement, that is generally it in the private sector. You can then get a job with the experience of your previous seven years or get an extension of seven years. Is it not better to promote the extension? Deputy Durkan made the point - and I agree with him - that we are losing good people from many positions because there is some notional retirement age. These people could still do the job, and some of them want to do it. Is it not time to review that?
Mr. David Moloney:
It is within the terms of reference of the independent review panel to look at these questions of how we recruit and what we would do with extension and end of term issues around Secretaries General. The security of tenure is one of the characteristics of Civil Service jobs that is part of the terms and conditions generally and that is reflected in the various ways of calculating the benefits and attractiveness of the job to prospective applicants. That has been an issue. Those are all within the ambit of the independent review panel and can be examined.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Who is on that panel?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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This is the panel that has just been appointed?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Remind me who is on it.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How long has Mr. Moloney been in the Civil Service? How many years has he been Secretary General?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Moloney would have been promoted through the Civil Service.
Mr. David Moloney:
Yes. I started in the Civil Service so long ago that I am having difficulty recalling the date. It was in 1990.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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My point is that Mr. Moloney has experience.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the practice of hiring or employing people in the Civil Service good enough or should it be changed? Is there better practice in the private sector that could be introduced to the civil and public service?
Mr. David Moloney:
The Civil Service has been successful in attracting high-quality people over the years, but there is always more to be done and there are always ways of looking around and seeing what can be improved. The independent review panel will do that for senior public service posts and to be fair to the Public Appointments Service, it is constantly looking at new ways of recruiting people, and is aware, particularly in the current labour market, of the need to get people in. Many of our processes are driven by the need to be meticulously fair, to follow the Commission for Public Service Appointments guidelines. Sometimes they can be perceived to be slow and people might go off and get other jobs, which is a particular challenge in the current environment where people have such choice.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The reason I am asking is because we have not had great success in attracting people from outside into the senior ranks of the Civil Service. Is that to do with salaries or is it to do with them going off and getting different jobs while they are waiting, as Mr. Moloney said, for decisions to be made? What can we do to make it more attractive to those outside to come in and bring in some fresh thinking or new direction if it is needed? Is there anything obvious that Mr. Moloney thinks should be done?
Mr. David Moloney:
There has been some success in attracting people into the Civil Service at senior levels, including at assistant principal and principal officer level. We have seen the progression of some of those people up to and including Secretary General level. What is sometimes talked about is bringing people in directly at assistant secretary or Secretary General level. The general view is that the level of applications and interest we get in those has not yielded in the last two years.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is it the salary then?
Mr. David Moloney:
It is hard for us to tell why people have not applied or do not choose it as a career. It is notable that in tougher economic times there appeared to be better private sector interest in Civil Service jobs.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is an interesting conversation which refers to many aspects of working in the public service and transferring on to the private sector, and vice versa. However, Deputy Doherty made an interesting reference to the teachers who become Deputies or Senators. It could be significant in their pension entitlements in the event that they serve one term or a short term of office in the Oireachtas and then find themselves with insufficient pension entitlements. They might go back to the public service in teaching positions and they may have several years to go, a short number of years to go or insufficient years to go to achieve a full pension. They could well find themselves at a distinct disadvantage. My humble suggestion would be that those who are replacements should be able to go forward on the basis that they could achieve permanency after a short number of years and acquire full pension entitlements. That is one of the things that needs to be looked at and done.
I am sure the Chairman already knows the following. I made reference to the Defence Forces and much is made today of the fact that it is difficult to recruit and retain people there. It is difficult because the Oireachtas took away those entitlements they had where the person who had entered the Defence Forces spent 21 years there and walked away with a full pension. This person could take a part-time job or a smaller job that was sufficient to meet their requirements and that may have been in line with their needs to do less work and so on. We have taken that away and it creates an obstacle to recruitment in the Defence Forces.
The following matter also needs to be borne in mind. There is a system in the Defence Forces involving individuals who suffered personal injuries and who claimed and obtained compensation, be it 20 years ago, 30 years ago or whatever. In those cases, assuming the person has been discharged from the Defence Forces as being unfit to serve due to their injuries, they then qualify for a pension. In the course of the payment of that pension, a sum is deducted on a monthly basis to recover the payment made in respect of compensation, which is an appalling decision and this measure is regularly enforced. The phrase in the Army Pensions Act 1927 states that "The Minister may" recover all or part of the amount of the previous award in determining the amount of pension the person may get. It is an appalling thing to do to people who have served the country and who have been injured to the extent that they were no longer able to serve in the Defence Forces. The Act says "The Minister may"; it does not say "The Minister shall" but we know all about that phrase over the years, what it means and the implications for the public service. That is another matter that needs to be looked at in order to be fair to people who work in the public service and the private sector and who have reason to change over.
Those two issues need to be looked at. Deputy Doherty is right regarding the point relating to teachers. I would like to see a major change on the issue I referred to in respect of the Defence Forces.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Deputy asking Mr. Moloney to make a------
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am not asking him to run in my constituency but I am sure he knows about it.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Ministers and Secretaries Act is something this committee is interested in. We are having a paper prepared on it by the Library and Research Service of the Houses. We have asked for some guidance and information from Mr. Moloney's Department. That would come under its area of remit. We want to take that Act and other amending Acts down through the years to get an understanding of how the legislation operates and what changes to the accountability element might or should be made. We want to understand the current arrangement and see if we can we suggest any better ways of doing business and making individuals accountable. Has Mr. Moloney’s Department done any work on that in the past?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If there was a change in the legislation it would be Mr. Moloney's Department that would bring forward that legislation.
Mr. David Moloney:
Yes. That would be my understanding. In respect of the Ministers and Secretaries Act, we would bring forward that legislation. In respect of any of the functions exercised on it, we would bring forward legislation on behalf of the Taoiseach. I would just make that distinction.
Regarding the independent review panel, it is probably not that obvious but when we talk about the legislative arrangements in respect of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform setting the terms and conditions of civil servants, the terms and conditions are encompassed broadly. Therefore, it would be relevant to the Ministers and Secretaries Act. That would be one of the items the independent review panel would be free to look at.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The independent review panel could look at-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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-----how individuals are held responsible. The idea of the Minister accepting all of the blame and all the rest of it could be addressed.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Has that independent review panel being asked to look at this?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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When is it expected to report back?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I presume the members of it will talk about the salary and the terms and conditions for the overall work. How was increasing the salary of one Secretary General by €86,000, or whatever it was, taken by the public sector leadership board?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was there any concern around it? I mean that in a way-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. That is fine. It was agreed. How it was agreed is a little bit disserving. Because of that arrangement, is it time to look at individual Departments and to offer more to one departmental Secretary General than another because of the volume of work, the extent of the Department or the budget it has?
Mr. David Moloney:
It is certainly something that fits into the remit of the independent review panel, following on from the report of this committee as well as several related issues. We have in place a three-tier structure but we also seen very significant movements in departmental responsibilities over time. That impacts on how one might access a three-tier structure. That is one of the issues we have asked the Donal de Buitléir group to look at and make recommendations on. Certainly the Minister is conscious of the concerns that have been raised about how salaries are set and has explained to the committee and others, in great detail, the evolution from the former review body on higher education, moving into pay cuts and the financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, legislation reductions and restoration to our now emerging into a different phase. Therefore, it is appropriate to consider how we might look at pay determination into the future.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That once-off increase would not be the norm in terms of the process. There is a different process there, is there not?
Mr. David Moloney:
The issue is that having stood down the review body on higher education, having provided for senior public pay through the FEMPI legislation and now being at a stage where the FEMPI legislation is coming to an end, the question is what process will now take place because there has not been a process outside of FEMPI.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The €86,000 increase was not part of a formal process. That is not how Secretaries General get increases, is it?
Mr. David Moloney:
If we reflect back, my understanding is it is the only change in Secretary General pay for a long number of years. Because we do not have a review body or a mechanism for setting and establishing what the correct rate is, the Government sees a need for the setting of a rate. The Minister has no choice but to make that decision based on the Government’s assessment of what is needed in respect of a particular post. As the Chairman will know, that has happened in a small number of instances.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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From that process we saw there is no process currently in place. No benchmarking was done, for example, of similar positions across Europe. No one can explain where that figure came from, the make-up of it, or how that figure was arrived at. That is why I am asking Mr. Moloney about this. It is clear there is no process. It is clear there is no information around how that figure was arrived at. It was a decision of the Government and that, too, will be examined by the independent review panel, not that particular issue but the issue of-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The broader issue. It is simply not good practice.
In terms of the performance of Secretaries General, there is the leadership board but I was a bit taken aback to find out during the course of our engagement with Mr. Fraser, when he was in before us, that there is no single boss. To whom are the Secretaries General answerable?
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that part of it but I mean within their own workplace, as it where. I always thought Mr. Fraser would have been the all-powerful Secretary General who would control the other Secretaries General or tick them off or praise them, as needs be, but he said that is not the case. Does Mr. Moloney think there is a need for perhaps an all-powerful Secretary General who would have as part of his or her remit the types of tools needed to manage a group of important people such as those or does he think it works okay the way it is because Governments come and go?
Mr. David Moloney:
Those in government are the people who can hold Secretaries General to account as things stand. It is a complicated question. As I set out in the piece we gave the committee on the Government's accountability thesis, Secretaries General are generally Accounting Officers in their own right.
As the Chairman will know, the legislation and rules about that are very specific. They are not updatable. Under the Public Service Management Act 1997, Secretaries General are given, in their own right, responsibility for the day-to-day management of Departments so that Ministers do not have to be called to account any time somebody breaks their arm in a Government building. There are ranges of responsibility that are not communal but that are held solely by the Secretaries General. As the head of the office or Department, the Secretary General has those responsibilities.
With regard to the collective responsibilities, that is really a matter for Government. It is not the only way it could be done but it is the situation as it now stands. I have not seen a clearly articulated alternative vision.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Has Mr. Moloney looked at any vision of an alternative to what we have at present?
Mr. David Moloney:
There have been several looks at how accountability might be rolled out, implemented or given practical form. We have done that over time and, as we take into account the views of the independent review panel, we will have another opportunity to do so. However, as the note we provided to the committee points out, it is a very complex set of interwoven responsibilities, most of which are set out in very long-established legislation that really-----
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Most of the responsibility falls to the Minister, however.
John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I have rarely heard of a Secretary General being asked to resign but I regularly hear calls for Ministers to resign. Sometimes, when you look at the issue, that may not be appropriate. Secretaries General are held to account by the Committee of Public Accounts but that is about it. I do not see anything else. The Committee of Public Accounts is still in business. If everything was functioning the way it should, that committee would not be in business because everything would be running so well.
In my time here, I have seen the same types of mistakes repeated over and over again. That raises a question as to the response of public sector leadership and the Secretaries General as a collective to Departments overspending or causing a negative perception of themselves to develop. Someone has to take responsibility for that. If you look at the jobs Ministers are involved in nowadays, between Brussels and dealing with world affairs and home affairs, you will see that they are kept quite busy. I presume they expect their Departments to take on the challenge of dealing with shortcomings. That is where I am coming from with regard to sanctions, conditions of employment, accountability and transparency. We all have to be accountable. I believe that any Secretary General asked to come before a committee should do so. That is my view. Although the work of other committees should not be duplicated, they should come before the various committees of these Houses. Until such time as there is change in respect of accountability and transparency, it is my view that Secretaries Generals should have to make themselves available. The Secretaries General across the Departments should be making great efforts to ensure that issues that arise in the context of the reports of the Comptroller and Auditor General are dealt with. I am just giving Mr. Moloney my tuppence worth on the matter but I would like to see substantial change in that area.
We have come to the end of our discussion on this. It has been worthwhile and informative. I thank Mr. Moloney and his two colleagues for their time.