Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The business before us this afternoon includes approval of the minutes, accounts and financial statements, correspondence, our work programme, and any other business.

The first item is the minutes of our meeting of 26 May, which have been circulated to members. Does any member wish to raise any matter relating to those minutes? No. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee's web page.

The second item is the accounts and financial statements. Five sets of statements and accounts were laid before the Houses between 23 May and 27 May. I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to address these before opening the floor to members. Is it agreed to note the accounts and statements? Agreed.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

As the Chairman said, there are five sets of financial statements, the first of which relates to the 2020 financial statements of Limerick and Clare Education and Training Board, ETB. It is a clear audit opinion, but I am drawing attention to non-compliance with procurement rules and the detail of that is given in the statement on internal control.

The Health Information and Quality Authority, for 2021, got a clear audit opinion.

The Heritage Fund, for 2021, a very small fund, got a clear audit opinion.

The National University of Ireland Maynooth, for the year 2020-21, finishing at the end of September 2021, got a clear audit opinion. As usual with university financial statements, I draw attention to the recognition of a deferred pension funding asset, which is standard for universities, but I also draw attention to disclosure in respect of a significant element of a severance deal for which the required departmental sanction was not sought. Further detail is given in the financial statements about that.

The final statement relates to the Defence Forces canteen board for 2021, which received a clear audit opinion.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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On the significant element of a severance deal, that tends to be a feature with third level institutions.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, it has come up on a number of occasions. Remuneration levels are a matter for sanction by the Department.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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This did not get the sanction.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

An element of a severance did get sanctioned but another element of it does not appear to have been disclosed to the Department and, therefore, was not sanctioned.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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An issue that featured in the previous Committee of Public Accounts related to where a cohort of people were employed on a very piecemeal, part-time basis. We did a bit of work on that as a committee in the previous Dáil. Did that show up in the accounts? People who were employed on contracts had those contracts terminated and it was very chaotic.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Was that people who were on kind of casual contracts?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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They were providing cover for lecturing, but these people were doing it on an effectively permanent, on-contract basis without getting permanency, and some of it was quite precarious. We tried to establish quite a bit of information about it at meetings of the previous committee.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I remember there was a lot of correspondence with individual universities, and I think the Higher Education Authority, HEA, tried to compile some of the data. Certainly, the expenditure would be reflected in the financial statements, but I do not think they would have counted towards the employment numbers. The practice seemed to vary from university to university. There was an element of it everywhere, but there seemed to be a greater reliance on it in some universities than in others.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In regard to Limerick and Clare ETB, there were six recommendations and five of them were highlighted. Is the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General satisfied those five recommendations relating to non-compliant procurement have been implemented?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is something we would have to follow up on in the subsequent audit. This was, obviously, what we found in regard to 2020, but we will follow up and see what the pattern was in the following period.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. It involves €1.58 million of public procurement. It relates to some stuff that is seen in the other ETBs, such as bus hire and so on, while some of it relates to Covid, such as Perspex screens.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Looking at the figures, this appears to be an internal audit. We would certainly expect that recommendations made to the body, in this case the ETB, would be followed up and monitored by the audit committee in order that it would routinely get an update until all the recommendations have been cleared.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Is it agreed we note the accounts and statements? Agreed. As usual, the listing of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.

Representatives of the Department of Health recently appeared before the committee. There have been reports in the media that I want to address as Chairman of the committee. We are told there are recordings of a senior official describing the Committee of Public Accounts as having "a few loopers" among its membership. He is quoted as saying, "Not for repeating, but there are a few loopers on the Public Accounts Committee, which makes it even more unpredictable." He is further quoted as going on to state, "Robert is well able for them." If those quotations are accurate and if that is the Department of Health's attitude towards this committee, that is a disgrace. I acknowledge Deputy Catherine Murphy has made this point. The committee is here to do an important job. We endeavour to do that to the best of our ability with the assistance of the secretariat and the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General and those comments are not acceptable.

I suggest, if it is agreeable to the committee, that we write to the Department of Health noting that these comments have appeared in public and asking the Secretary General whether he is aware of these comments from a senior official, whom I will not name. We should ask the Secretary General to clarify his own views on the matter and we should ask for an apology to members of the committee if it did happen. It is totally unacceptable. The Oireachtas is the body held accountable by the public and all Departments are answerable to the Oireachtas and to the duly elected government. We do not know for sure whether the comments were made but they have certainly been reported as direct speech. I propose we ask for the Department of Health’s view on the matter.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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This is not the first time some derogatory remarks have been made about the committee in general. None of us is so sensitive that we are going to be concerned about the issue but it shows a mindset of seeking to manage the committee that is totally unacceptable. The Chairman is quite correct that we have a job to do and the public will make a decision as to whether we are doing a good one. They get a chance to do that every time there is an election.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I am not very touchy about anything, and it does not matter who is sitting on these benches now or in the future, but members of the Committee of Public Accounts should not be referred to in that manner. The Department needs to clarify whether it happened, and if it did, the Secretary General should outline his view on that. We will request an apology to the committee if it did happen.

We now move to correspondence from Accounting Officers and Ministers in follow-up to committee meetings. No. 1257B, from Mr. Mark Griffin, Secretary General of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, dated 23 May, provides further information requested by the committee in regard to the national broadband plan. It details the Department's contractual arrangements for the provision of technical advisory services, commercial and financial advisory services and legal advisory services to support the delivery of the national broadband plan. It is proposed to note and publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed. It contains very detailed information. I understand Deputy Catherine Murphy wishes to comment on it.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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This related to two-year contracts for Analysys Mason, EY and William Fry.

I am presuming that the two-year extension has actually been granted. It says that a contract extension is available so I am presuming those contracts have been extended. I know the last two years have not been normal but can we clarify that with them? Some of the response is on foot of questions that I and others put in relation to the reliance on outside expertise for a contract that has a relatively long duration and whether in-post positions would be a more cost effective way of doing it, not to mention the fact that the expertise would be in-house.

The last page does give us some of the kind of granular information we sought. The second last paragraph tells us that with funding for approximately 20 additional staff approved in budget 2022, the Department's core team has expanded over the past year, with seven posts filled in 2021 and 14 posts in the process of being filled. It is useful to get that information but it would also be useful to know if the Department is applying for additional posts and not getting them and whether it has a framework for how many it will ultimately need. That would be useful information to have because without it, we have no real reference point.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, the previous paragraph tells us that the Department manages all elements of the contract governance and that it currently has a core team of 25 which is augmented by 20 specialists for external services. That gives us an indication that around 20 would be needed.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Are we sure about that? Some of the posts that we were looking at included clerical officers, executive officers, higher executive officers and administrative officers. They were not on the technical side. The idea seems to be to build up expertise in outside consultancies and not to have that expertise in the Department, even when it is cheaper to do so. It is important to establish the number the Department is working to and whether it has applied, but not received sanction, for posts.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Does Deputy Murphy want to know the disciplines, whether we are talking about technical posts for people with engineering backgrounds and so on?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes, that would be very useful.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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If that is agreed, we will look for that information from the Secretary General, Mr. Mark Griffin.

The next item is No. 1266B from Mr. Denis Duggan, CEO of Horse Sport Ireland, dated 25 May 2022, providing information requested by the committee regarding the proposed relocation of a Horse Sport Ireland facility to Greenogue in Dublin. In terms of the application of procurement rules, a distinction is drawn between the acquisition of the land which the CEO states falls outside the relevant EU procurement directive and any further development works at the site which would be within the scope of the directive. The point he makes in the letter is that such works would obviously be put out to tender and Horse Sport Ireland would become a contracting body at that stage. It is proposed to note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Catherine Murphy flagged this item for further discussion.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes. Horse Sport Ireland has 24 affiliates ranging from pony clubs to Olympic-level organisations. There is a real mix there and getting one facility that caters for all of their needs is difficult. In case people think I know what I am talking about, I must say that other people have told me this. Essentially, Horse Sport Ireland gets the bulk of its funding from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, with €6 out of every €7 coming from that source. Horse Sport Ireland wanted to get a permanent facility and that is fine. It then had to decide where to locate it, with a view to meeting the needs of all of its affiliates. However, none of the affiliates was consulted in advance and some of them have real issues with the decision of Horse Sport Ireland. The site chosen is located in an industrial estate in west Dublin and it simply will not meet the needs of some of the affiliates. It is a 30 acre site and some of the land has been sterilised or frozen from further development because part of it will be needed for the extension of the link to the N3, N4 and N7. This roads objective could be problematic and may mean that it will not be possible to expand the site into the future in one particular direction. Furthermore, the current planning permission has restrictions attached, including that the facility must be for private use. It expressly prohibits competition or other commercial activities. How can Horse Sport Ireland pick this location, spend all this money-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Where did it move from?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It would have been from Punchestown, I think. Punchestown is not in my constituency, just in case anyone thinks I am batting for Kildare. The location is not really relevant to me. What is relevant is that Horse Sport Ireland is going to be spending a lot of money. It has 24 affiliates and it must meet their needs but the affiliates were only consulted after the fact. The planning restrictions and the fact that a piece of land is out of play because it has a roads objective attached are concerning. If we are going to be spending a lot of money on a lease-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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How much of the 30 acres is sterilised for a road corridor?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I do not know. I do not have that detail. What I am saying is that there are issues with this. The reply we received suggests that because this is a lease agreement, it is treated differently from a purchase but the key issue here is whether it meets the needs of the affiliates. If public money is going to be spent, can the facility actually function and meet their requirements? Can it expand in the future? It is a lease as opposed to a purchase and I think there are questions to be answered. Public money is being spent. Horse Sport Ireland receives quite a bit of funding from the Department and I would have thought that there should have been a high level of engagement with the affiliates on this. I do not know where this is at right now but wish to draw attention to it. I have also done that in the Dáil by way of a Topical Issue and have raised it with the Department. I am unhappy with the Department's stand-off approach to some of the organisations it funds. The Department tells us that the organisations are independent and while we do not want to see the Minister getting involved in the day-to-day running of an organisation, some level of oversight in the context of the spending of public money is required. In this case the amount of money involved may not be big but it is important nonetheless. It is also important that-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I have a suggestion to make. If we write to Mr. Brendan Gleeson, the Secretary General of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, it is likely that he will say it is not a matter for the Department because Horse Sport Ireland is an independent body. However, Deputy Murphy is correct in saying that the bulk of the organisation's funding comes from the Department. We should write to the CEO of Horse Sport Ireland, Mr. Duggan, again and ask him about the length of the lease, how much it will cost, the size of the site, and how much of it is retained and sterilised as a road corridor.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We also want to know if all of the affiliates can be accommodated and about the planning permission.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. We must also ask a question as to whether there is a condition in the lease relating to competitive activities.

Deputy Murphy mentioned that no competitive activity can take place on the site. It seems odd that a body such as Horse Sport Ireland would acquire a site that would rule that out. Maybe that is not the purpose of this. My understanding is that there are number of these horsey bodies, but is this the one that deals with breeding of horses?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I do not think it is.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It deals with sport.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It deals with sport.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It deals with everything from pony clubs to dressage, showjumping and so on.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Has it some role in breeding?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I think a lot of the questions the Members are asking would typically be dealt with in a business case proposal. A lot of the answers to the questions they have just raised may already be captured in a business case that would underpin the application to the Department. Perhaps the committee could inquire if there is such a business case and, then, if there are residual questions that need to be answered-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have already asked quite a few questions. I would be happy for the Committee of Public Accounts to write a letter to the Secretary General about the oversight.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I will try to draw this together. It is proposed that we write to Mr. Duggan and Cc Brendan Gleeson, highlighting the four or five concerns we have just outlined and asking for a copy of the business case for this piece to be supplied to the committee. Is that agreeable? Okay. That may illuminate the matter for us.

The next item is No. 1269B, from Robert Watt, Secretary General, Department of Health, dated 26 May, providing information requested by the committee on the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board. It includes information on the progress at the site and the two-stage procurement process and reaffirms the Department's position on the publication of the analysis of the projected costs and timelines for completion, stating: "That scenario planning analysis includes assumptions, values and assessments which are confidential and commercially sensitive to the NPHDB and the successful completion of the project." It is proposed that we note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. Deputy Catherine Murphy, you had flagged this up.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes. I see the issue is repeated in the correspondence where it states that any discussion of the content, hypothetical or otherwise, would prejudice the ability of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board to successfully enforce its existing contractual relationships, as it is required to do, to ensure the best value and return to the taxpayer. Of course, we all want that, but the correspondence just repeats what we have already got. They are due to come before the committee, are they not?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, in a few weeks.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There is just one question about the final paragraph of the correspondence that I would like us to establish before they come in. The correspondence refers to the mechanisms set out within the contract for any delay caused by the contractor's substantial completion date - for example, as a result of resourcing and so on - but the employer's claim is then determined by the employer's representative. It states stuff but does not actually tell us whether the board has done that. I would like to know if it has done that because there were times when it did not have enough people on the site, and that is the point I keep making. These claims go in both directions. I want to know, if the board has done this, whether any claims have gone in regarding-----

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I myself wrote a question about this. Has there been a claim?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Exactly.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I propose that we ask them to clarify that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It would be useful if they would tell us that before they came before us.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There was also the period when there was a dispute over the restart time in the period after the first Covid lockdown, if Members recall.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Months.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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They were later coming back on that site than they were on other building sites.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes. Months later.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Government announced that construction was back, NPHET gae the okay for it, but construction on the hospital did not restart. As I recall, it was nearly two months before it did.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes, it was, and then at the beginning there were inadequate numbers on the site.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I propose that we ask the question Deputy Murphy and I want answered be answered, that is, whether a claim has been made on that.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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In the reports it is stated that 466 claims have been agreed upon. Are we entitled to get details as to what the cost of that was?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We can do that. Deputy Burke is talking about the passage in the correspondence where it states that-----

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes, that 466 have been determined by the employer's representative. Can we get any idea about the additional cost as a result of those claims and a broad outline of what was involved in them?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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It is stated in the correspondence that there were non-related claims and that contractors' design packages are the responsibility of the contractors. We can ask for details or some extra information as to how much has been settled.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I think there is a distinction between a claim being determined by the employer's representative and the matter being agreed because it can be appealed once the determination has been made. It is therefore important to distinguish between amounts that have been settled and to which both parties have agreed and amounts that are still in process.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We will ask for the status of that.

Colm Burke (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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We might get information on that. The number determined is 466. How many of those were then taken on to the next step or have been formally agreed by both parties?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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There is the arbitration and then there is-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes. There is conciliation and arbitration and then the potential to go to the High Court. I think last week the Chairman looked at a letter that was going to be sent, which I think is going to draw out a lot of that information.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you for reminding me of that, Mr. McCarthy. Those questions were in a letter we agreed to last week, so I hope we might have answers to those soon. It would be great if we had them before the relevant witnesses come before us in a few weeks' time.

The next item of correspondence is No. 1273 B, from Mr. Kevin McCarthy, Secretary General of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. We had him before us this morning. The correspondence is dated 27 May and provides information requested by the committee regarding the awarding of contracts to provide meals for Ukrainian refugees. It is proposed to note and to publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. Deputy Catherine Murphy, you had this flagged.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We have been given an amount here which we are asked not to publish. It relates to the cost of catering in two different locations. There is a considerable difference between both. I do not know if the contracts were tendered for. I think they were the ones that were not tendered for because it was-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

My understanding from the evidence this morning was that the Department negotiated these and that these were the prices that were agreed. Potentially, if the Department is going out to tender, it may not want the amount as to how much it has been prepared to pay on a short-term basis. It may have an impact on the prices that will be offered subsequently.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is fair enough.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The Department asks that the figures it gives not be published because of the retendering and so on and the implications for that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is fine.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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I propose that we agree to publish the letter without the amount. Is everybody happy? That is good.

The next item is correspondence from and related to private individuals and any other correspondence. The first such item is No. 1263 C, dated 24 May. It is from an individual who has corresponded with the committee regarding social welfare appeals. The correspondent asks if the committee has found evidence of test cases being used by the social welfare appeals office and the Department. It is proposed to provide the correspondent with a copy of our report on the examination of the 2019 Appropriation Account for Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners. That report records our position on the matter arising from the evidence that was presented to us. Is that agreed? Agreed. In the report it is set out clearly that there was evidence of test cases being used at some level.

It is to be hoped that will clarify the matter for the respondent. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 1261 is from Atheist Ireland, dated 24 May 2022. On receipt of previous correspondence from Atheist Ireland concerning the constitutional provisions regarding education, the committee sought responses from the Department of Education and the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA. The Department advised that it intended to meet with Atheist Ireland to discuss the issues and we forwarded the responses from it and the NCCA. The meeting has now taken place and Atheist Ireland states that the Department has undertaken to reflect on the views of Atheist Ireland and acknowledges that the Department is acting in good faith. That is good. Essentially, Atheist Ireland takes issue with the Department of Education’s funding of schools that, in its view, do not abide by the constitutional conditions for that funding. Atheist Ireland requests that the committee examine the matter. It is clear there is ongoing engagement between the Department and Atheist Ireland. It is also clear that the matter turns on constitutional interpretation and it is not the role of the committee to adjudicate on that interpretation. The policy that flows from such interpretation is not a matter for the committee either and would be more appropriate to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. It is proposed to advise Atheist Ireland accordingly. Does any member wish to address this item of correspondence? Members are happy enough with it.

I will move on to the work programme. As next week is a non-sitting week, our next meeting will be on 16 June, when we will engage with the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board. I hope we will have some of those answers before then.

On 23 June, we will engage with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to examine its oversight of local government expenditure of central government funds. The Department has confirmed availability for the meeting and the Association of Irish Local Government has indicated it will nominate representatives to attend.

We had planned to engage with An Bord Pleanála on 30 June but its representatives are not available until 14 July, which is the last scheduled sitting for this term. Is it agreed to schedule the meeting for 14 July? Agreed. A representative from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage will also be in attendance. In terms of the agenda, An Bord Pleanála’s 2020 financial statements are available to us to examine. Are there any other specific areas of interest that members wish to put on the agenda?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Again, I would like to see a meeting with the Department of Foreign Affairs slotted in. I may be wrong but I thought we had agreed that. The issue of the investment in passport services that has been made and whether it was robust is one aspect but I know from previous experience there was quite a lot of useful information relating to embassies - whether the State owns or leases them and those kinds of things - that it would be useful to discuss with the Department to see where things are now.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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We have An Bord Pleanála on 14 July. That leaves the 30 June and 7 July vacant. I propose that we bring in the Central Bank regarding the insurance compensation scheme, credit unions and any other issues members may wish to raise this side of the recess, if members are agreeable to that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is the committee agreeable to the Department of Foreign Affairs coming before us?

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Department available? We have not contacted it yet. We can bring in the Department of Foreign Affairs on 30 June and the Central Bank on 7 July. In the context of the Department of Foreign Affairs, I know passports are the hot issue at the moment, but are there other issues members want included on the agenda for that meeting? They may wish to think about that.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is certainly worth engaging with the Department on the issue of embassies again.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There are two appropriation accounts for the Department. One relates to consular activity and the other relates to official development assistance. Obviously, there is the programme of aid, which is quite a substantial programme.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. We will meet the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board on 16 June and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage on 23 June. On 30 June, we will meet the Department of Foreign Affairs to discuss passports, embassies and any other issues members wish to raise. On 7 July, we will have the Central Bank to discuss the insurance compensation scheme, credit unions and any other issues. I ask that we include the general issue of insurance and regulation of the insurance industry on the agenda for that meeting. Did we say An Bord Pleanála will be available on 14 July? That will bring us up to the summer recess - bucket and spade territory.

In terms of matters reported upon by the Comptroller and Auditor General, there are a number of outstanding matters for examination with the Department of Education. There is special report No. 112 on financial governance and reporting in education and training boards, as well as chapters on management of the schools estate and the purchase of sites for school provision. That is one option. We will have to put that back to autumn.

Separately, there is also an outstanding chapter from this year on the assessment and collection of insurance compensation fund levies. We have dealt with that.

There is also the issue of passports, which we have pencilled in for the final sitting before the recess.

Are members happy with the work programme between now and the summer recess? I take their silence as meaning that they are all very happy. Are there any other matters members wish to raise? That concludes the work programme.

Do members wish to raise any other matter? Everyone is happy. The meeting stands adjourned until 16 June, when we will engage with the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board at 9.30 a.m.