Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 29 March 2022
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality
Rehabilitative Opportunities within the Prison System: Discussion
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
As we have done with a number of meetings in recent times, we are having a hybrid session with some members and witnesses in the room, and some members and witnesses online. We are all getting used to the new normal. This is how we are doing things now and it is working quite well. I ask those who are joining us online to keep their microphones on mute when not speaking and obviously take it off mute when speaking. I ask members and witnesses appearing in person or online to put their mobile phones on airplane mode because, even though it may not appear so at the time, it can interfere with the recording afterwards.
The purpose of today's meeting is to have an engagement with a number of stakeholders, all of whom have made submissions to the committee on the topic of rehabilitative opportunities within the prison system. The topic was nominated by the committee. The committee takes elective modules as part of its work. Our programme of work is driven largely by governmental requirements and different pieces of legislation. We also have modules of our own interest within the committee which we try to explore and this is one of those. It is taken from the committee's work programme under prisons and probation, and examining penal reform and prisoner supports.
From the Irish Prison Service, I welcome Ms Caron McCaffrey, director general; Mr. Fergal Black, director of care and rehabilitation; and Mr. Ciaron McCauley, programme manager to the director general. From the Irish Penal Reform Trust, I welcome Ms Sarahjane McCreery, senior policy and research officer; and Ms Molly Joyce, acting executive director. Mr. Warren Graham is joining us from Loughan House prison. We are also joined by Ms Ethel Gavin, former prison governor of the Midlands Prison; and Mr. Eddie Mullins, governor of Mountjoy Prison.
I will outline the usual rules for parliamentary privilege. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their comments are potentially defamatory, they will be directed to discontinue such remarks.
The usual privilege that extends to in-person meetings is a somewhat grey area with regard to remote participation. We think it is covered, but the question of how privilege extends online has yet to be tested. We are proceeding on the basis that we have given the usual housekeeping message and that should suffice. I think members are all aware of the new rules.
Each organisation or individual will be invited to make a brief opening statement not exceeding three minutes. If they run over, I will stop them after three minutes to move on to the next person. They will be given plenty of time. There will be many opportunities over the course of the meeting to go far beyond the three minutes and they will be able to come in and out on different matters as the meeting progresses. Once we have taken initial statements from each of the witnesses and groups we will then go to members and each member will be given a seven-minute slot. Each member can speak for seven minutes. Whether the member wishes to give us a seven-minute monologue or whether the member wants to give one minute of questions and have six minutes of answers is entirely up to each member. Everybody here is entitled to use the time as they wish. Questions and answers are included. When we reach seven minutes, I will move on to the next member. I just wanted to make sure that witnesses, in particular, were aware of how that works.
I look forward to what I expect to be a very interesting engagement. I call on Ms McCaffrey who has three minutes to make her opening remarks.
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
I am pleased to have an opportunity to address the committee today. I was pleased to have made a comprehensive submission, which I hope members found useful.
I am joined today by my colleague Fergal Black, who is the director of care and rehabilitation in the Irish Prison Service. He has overall responsibility for the delivery of prisoner services within the Irish Prison Service. I am also joined by the governor of Mountjoy Prison, Eddie Mullins.
The committee will be aware from my written submission that the Irish Prison Service provides a broad range of services and activities in which prisoners can participate on a daily basis. I am happy to take any questions from members in that regard.
These services provide constructive activities for those in prison while serving their sentences and are very much designed to target the root causes of offending. They provide an opportunity for those in prison to address their educational needs or skills deficits through participation in education or training, which supports their eventual reintegration into society. However, rehabilitation is not limited to the provision of education and skills, although these are very important. It also includes measures aimed at enhancing the physical, emotional and mental well-being of those in our care.
Our prisons provide opportunities for those in custody to achieve change. I strongly believe our prisons should be seen as institutions of opportunity and not as places of punishment.
We have an integrated sentence management, ISM, process in place, which we will be happy to discuss later. Central to it is prisoners taking personal responsibility for engaging with services available throughout the duration of their sentence to prepare them for release. Through this ISM process, important issues such as accommodation, employment and education are addressed to help people plan towards resettlement into their community. The smooth transition from prison back into the community is an essential component of the rehabilitative process. It is important to note that the rehabilitation process does not start and end with a person’s time in custody and without the appropriate supports in the community, much of the good work done by prison-based staff during the period of imprisonment can be undone very quickly. The Irish Prison Service continues to develop effective partnerships with our key stakeholders to ensure that appropriate post-release supports are available for people leaving prison and returning to their community.
Achieving desistance from crime is complex and difficult and is not achieved over a short period of time. It requires a co-ordinated approach involving the offender, the prison system and the community and only by continuing to work together collaboratively will we continue to achieve better outcomes for prisoners resulting is safer communities for all.
It is important to recognise the harm and suffering caused to victims of crime and we are always mindful of victims in our work with those in our custody. The ultimate aim of our work and engagement with offenders is to reduce reoffending, resulting in fewer victims of crime in the future.
I am sure members will agree that those involved in the delivery of services to prisoners play a hugely important role within our prisons. I also wish to acknowledge the influence that our prison officers have on the lives of people in their care. Feedback from prisoners through research has shown that prison officers, through their day-to-day interactions, are positive role models for prisoners and have a profound influence on the life of the person while in custody.
I am sure that those here who have visited our prisons will have seen the dedication and commitment that prison staff have for those in their care and the passion they have in providing support, especially to those very vulnerable people within the prison system. From my perspective, that commitment and resolve was very much evident over the past two years, as we fought to manage Covid-19 within our prison system while continuing to support prisoners in relation to engaging with services.
I will finish there as I am out of time. I thank the committee for the opportunity and I look forward with engaging with members.
Ms Sarahjane McCreery:
I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it. The Irish Penal Reform Trust, IPRT, welcomes the opportunity to contribute to this examination. It is Ireland's leading NGO campaigning for rights in the penal system and the progressive reform of Irish penal policy. The subject of today’s meeting is vast so we will briefly focus on four key points, namely, reducing the prison population; living conditions within prisons; mental health and addiction supports; and post-release barriers and opportunities. We are happy, however, to discuss any aspect of this important topic that members wish to examine as well as the barriers facing the IPRT in our work.
First on reducing the prison population, all of the rehabilitative opportunities discussed today would be positively impacted by a reduction in the prison population. Fewer people in prison reduces the demand on staff and resources, promotes better living conditions and allows for increased access to the services and supports. The pandemic has particularly brought to light how difficult it is to balance the basic health and safety of people in prison alongside broader goals of rehabilitation when there is pressure on both space and resources.
While we have seen some reduction in the daily average number of people in custody since the pandemic began, our recent Progress in the Penal System, PIPS, report that noted that the daily average in custody was higher in 2020 than in 2017. This report also noted a reduction in the use of community service orders and an increase in short-term sentences. Since the beginning of this year, we have seen the numbers in custody creep further upwards. Among the many ways by which this could be addressed, the criminal justice (community sanctions) Bill 2014 should be progressed without further delay, alongside an investment in community-based sanctions and the Department of Justice should complete its planned review of the Criminal Justice (Community Service) (Amendment) Act 2011 and the use of short sentences without further delay.
Living conditions are fundamental to the overall rehabilitative function of prison. I people do not have access to safe and stable accommodation in the first instance, other rehabilitative programmes will be of limited value. Two relevant aspects are access to single-cell accommodation and adequate out-of-cell time, both of which have seen a recent regress. As of January 2022, only 54% of people in Irish prisons were accommodated in single cells, while there was a regress in the number of hours of out-of-cell time afforded to people in prison in 2021 to six hours. This is just one hour more out-of-cell time than people on a restricted regime and six hours less than the IPRT’s recommended standard of 12 hours. The numbers of people on restricted regime have also grown by 79% between 2017 and 2021. Living conditions have been further negatively impacted by Covid-19. To improve living conditions in prisons, the Irish Prison Service should carry out a review of single-cell accommodation across the estate before the end of 2022; develop and publish a designated policy on cell-sharing; publish a dedicated strategy for reducing the use of restricted regimes; and publish its plans for moving out of the emergency phase of the Covid-19 pandemic.
Turning to the third key issue of mental health and addiction supports, while there are limited data available on mental health and addiction in Irish prisons, research suggests that the prevalence of people in prison with severe mental illness is four times that of the general population, while an estimated one in two prisoners present with substance misuse or dependence issues. There remain challenges in regards the prison system’s ability to address these issues, with persistent waiting lists for the Central Mental Hospital, lengthy waiting times for in-prison psychology services and addiction counselling services, a low psychologist-to-prisoner ratio and an outdated prison drugs policy. Therefore, the Irish Prison Service should carry out a review of all mental health supports available to people in prison, with a view to identifying the areas where increased resourcing is needed. The Irish Prison Service should publish an updated drugs policy which takes into account a health-led approach to drug use within prisons, without delay.
On the fourth key issue of post-release barriers and opportunities, today’s discussion should not focus solely on the prison system, to the exclusion of what happens once someone is released. This is underlined by recent statistics from the Central Statistics Office, CSO. Consideration should be given to inserting into legislation a positive statutory obligation on all relevant agencies to co-operate around prisoner release. The Government should progress the Criminal Justice (Rehabilitative Periods) Bill 2018 through the Dáil without delay.
I thank the committee for its invitation to attend today’s session. My colleague Ms Molly Joyce, IPRT’s acting executive director, and I are ready to respond to the committee’s questions as best we can.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Ms McCreery. We now go to Mr. Warren Graham who joins us from Loughan House. I am delighted that we are able to facilitate this engagement. I think that this may be historic in the sense that we have not had someone from within the prison system giving evidence before a committee before. I thank Senator Ruane in particular for making the introduction and making us aware of Mr. Graham and the Senator's project there. We are very glad that we were able to do that today and we look forward to the engagement.
Mr. Warren Graham:
I thank everyone for the opportunity to speak today on the topic of rehabilitation in Irish prisons. I have now spent over a third of my life in prison and throughout that time, I have personally been transformed. The values and ideologies of my youth have been supplanted through education and an in-depth knowledge of myself and my past. It has not been easy; education has inflicted on me the pains associated with knowledge. For some scholars, it was almost inevitable that a guy like me would wind up in prison. Michel Foucault states that “expert opinion shows how the individual already resembles his crime before he has committed it”. When I look around the prison estate, I see too many people who resemble me; people from areas like mine who share the values I once had and people who have grown up almost completely excluded from society. So when I ponder over the concept of rehabilitation, I cannot help but feel that it is targeted at the people who are unfortunate to have been born into these areas. Nonetheless I have wholeheartedly engaged in rehabilitation over the course of my prison term mainly through education, while also attending many psychology and probation sessions, though to say that I have reformed is quite vague. My mother would state that I have not changed and that the man I am now is the man she knew I would be. The change, she says, happened prior to my crime when I spiralled downwards as a result of my criminal lifestyle.
Studying criminology and sociology at third level has enabled me to see my life from the experts' position and using their opinions and theories I have seen that prison is often considered as containment for the purpose of retribution, not rehabilitation. I see this in Irish prisons. I see that some people are considered no-hope, beyond reach and are merely in prison to serve out their time. They are released and return again continuing the same vicious cycle for the duration of their life. But are they beyond reach and whose fault is it that they do not or cannot change? I have seen that sooner or later, they grow tired of prison and would give anything to have a quiet life. If the purpose of prison is revenge, then it does work because sooner or later we will regret our choices in life especially when our future is that of a former criminal with a history of convictions and no chance of employment.
Rehabilitation is only available and applicable when everybody supports it. Society needs to want it. Prisoners need to be given the opportunity to re-engage in society. Without the correct supports in society, anything that the prison can do is wasted upon release. Too many prisoners struggle beyond prison with the stigma of been a former prisoner. Some recent initiatives such as the Mountjoy-Maynooth University partnership, as well as the social enterprise schemes had seemed promising prior to the pandemic. I hope that they will be restarted as soon as possible. There are so many capable workers leaving prison on a daily basis in tandem with the calls from various sectors looking for workers. If you give these guys a chance, I believe they will prove they are capable of making good. I personally believe that a strong majority of prisoners would make the most of a decent second chance.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Thank you, Mr. Graham. You kept that nicely on time. You wrapped up just before the three-minute mark. Our next witness is Ms Ethel Gavin, former governor of Midlands Prison.
Ms Ethel Gavin:
I thank the committee for inviting me to this meeting. I am a retired Irish Prison Service governor. I retired two years ago, having served 30 years. My experience commenced as a basic grade prisoner officer in Mountjoy male prison in 1990. I served at various ranks over the following years and retired as governor grade 1 in charge of the largest prison in Ireland.
When I joined the Irish Prison Service in 1990, prison workshops were rarely closed due largely to the availability of overtime. An annualised hours system of working was introduced in 2005. The management of this system of working has unfortunately led to many workshop closures since its introduction at the cost of delivering an effective rehabilitative environment for prisoners. This has been further frustrated by the failure of the Prison Service escort corps to fully support prisons as it was originally designed to do. As a result, prisons find themselves having to provide staff to support this independent unit to escort prisoners to and from court etc. The result is further workshop closures.
In recent years a regime management plan was introduced. This plan is designed to ensure that only as a last resort are services to prisoners cut or closed. This, in my experience, has the potential to work very well. Unfortunately, a report by the Irish Prison Service that reviewed work and training in October 2021 stated that the reality in many prisons is as follows:
In practice, however, [in many institutions, Chief officers in charge of work and training] described the Work and Training function as secondary to the Discipline function and the Prison School. It was reported that while essential services (i.e. catering ... [etc.]) have been largely prioritised, the non-essential workshops were routinely closed and resources diverted elsewhere. This was ... reported to be the case both during and before the Covid-19 pandemic. Routine workshop closures were described as contributing to a lack of motivation among Work and Training staff, disengagement of prisoners and an impediment to accreditation.
The incentivised regimes programme in prisons provides for a differentiation of privileges between prisoners according to their level of engagement with services and quality of behaviour. The objective is to provide tangible incentives to prisoners to participate in structured activities and to encourage and reward good behaviour, leading to a safer and more secure environment. This has added to a more positive rehabilitative environment within prisons. Having said that, if a prisoner cannot engage with the services provided, it proves very difficult for him or her to move from the standard privilege level to an enhanced level. In one particular prison, there are 17 vacancies in the work training area today.
In 2020, costs associated with work and training, including staffing costs, gratuities and consumables, accounted for €23.8 million, or 5.8% of the Irish Prison Service, IPS, budget. This is a significant amount of public money that is clearly not delivering on what it is intended to achieve.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Thank you, Ms Gavin. Last but not least, I call on Mr. Eddie Mullins, governor of Mountjoy.
Mr. Eddie Mullins:
I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for allowing me to make a submission to the committee. It is a great privilege.
I currently hold the position of governor with responsibility for the management of Mountjoy Prison. I have been employed by the Irish Prison Service for the past 31 years. During my career I have held a number of senior positions in seven of the State's 12 prisons and have been the governor in charge of five different prisons. Throughout my career I have witnessed first-hand the impact of crime on victims and their families, perpetrators and their families, and the wider community. Throughout my career I have witnessed a programme of continuous improvement within the Irish Prison Service. A 20-year programme of prison replacement and refurbishment has seen enormous improvements to prisoner accommodation and facilities. Expansion of prisoner rehabilitation programmes and enhanced security measures have also been significant.
I am acutely aware of the lifelong anxiety and pain endured by victims of crime, particularly violent crime, and I would never want to add to their pain in any way. I firmly believe, however, that providing prisoners with the supports and opportunities to make a positive contribution to society will lead to lower recidivism rates and, ultimately, fewer victims of crime. Prisoners have many complex needs, and if we are to achieve improved outcomes for them, we all, as members of society, need to play our part. The Irish Prison Service faces many challenges in its attempt to get the balance right between society's demand for justice and the protection of its citizens and its desire to rehabilitate its prisoners and facilitate their reintegration into society.
In 2017 more than 70% of people committed to prison in Ireland were unemployed. Prisoners are 25 times more likely to come from and to return to a community of disadvantage and deprivation. A significant number of prisoners have never completed a State exam, with more than 50% leaving school before the age of 15. The Irish Prison Service collaborates with many Departments, statutory agencies and voluntary groups to provide prisoners with the education, skills and supports to facilitate their successful reintegration and, ultimately, to reduce recidivism rates.
As governor, I face daily the challenge of competing demands for resources. Therapeutic, education and work training programmes all require prison officer support to operate efficiently and effectively. External prison escorts to both medical and judicial appointments puts a considerable strain on already limited resources.
As I stated, prisoners' needs are complex and varied, and greater collaboration with State and non-State agencies is required to assist and to support people leaving prison.
Education, in my view, has a very important role to play in sustained rehabilitation. My experience has shown that, although many people in prison today did not have a positive experience with the education system during their formative years, their desire for education and training now, as adults, is quite significant.
Additionally, challenges in areas such as homelessness, addiction issues, employment and training needs, social support and negative labelling are all significant factors that can impede successful reintegration.
The relationship between drug use and criminal activity is very evident, and drug-related intimidation is a significant cause for concern both in communities and within our prisons.
If we are serious about tackling the causes of crime and really supporting communities most affected by crime, I believe we must have greater collaboration with all stakeholders, including prisoners, victims of crime, employers and employer representative bodies, non-Government and Government agencies, and community organisations to examine the issues, identify solutions and implement changes required to improve employment rates among ex-offenders. We require a significant expansion of addiction services spanning both prison and community to facilitate sustained relapse prevention treatment.
I am happy to answer any questions the committee might have.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Thank you, Mr. Mullins. That completes our opening round. I thank you all for those opening remarks, which help set the scene and give some context to our discussion. Now I will take members' contributions one at a time. Each member will enjoy a seven-minute slot for questions and answers. First up is Senator Ruane.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank all the witnesses for their submissions. Everybody seems to be on the same page as to where we need to be, which is always a good start. We all may then have different views as to how we get there, but at least if the end goal is the same we are doing well.
I will start with a question for Mr. Graham. His contribution is very important. Those with lived experience are always closest to the solution and should always be part of developing those solutions from the off. If I do not get through all my questions with everyone, I hope there will be a second round. My first question is in light of the establishment of the new Parole Board. Everything is in a sense interlinked in how we look at parole and temporary release and their impacts on rehabilitation. Does Mr. Graham have a view on the changes to the Parole Board and how it impacts life sentence prisoners and their rehabilitation? I will ask one question first, rather than asking them all at once. Mr. Graham may answer that question. If he needs any clarification, I am happy to provide it.
Mr. Warren Graham:
For the moment we do not really know where the life sentences are going. There is a little uncertainty, in that all our dates have been postponed. No one I know of has yet seen the new Parole Board, so we genuinely do not know what to expect. The postponement of dates has put on pause a lot of the progression made by some lifers, particularly those looking to get to open centres or those only arriving in open centres. I feel we are at a point at which a number of us have paused progression and we want to keep going but the Parole Board is not engaging, the Minister is now excluded and the Prison Service has yet to engage, so at present, we do not know where we are at.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does that negatively impact on the goals that would be set within rehabilitation? What type of impact does that have?
Mr. Warren Graham:
In the progression for reintegration, as much as for rehabilitation, people who are at a stage where a programme should be or would be in place when they are seeking parole, that is now being postponed, sometimes for 18 months and beyond. People will not see that progression until they seek parole. This is what I am being told. This is a problem and another extension as a result of the pandemic. As a result of the pandemic, we felt that we were being extended, and this is an extra extension on top of that. Everything, it seems, is on hold.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Graham. I will come back to him in a few minutes. My next question is for Mr. Mullins. The governor mentioned the community a lot. I have heard him speak about recidivism in the community. We are looking at what investment is made in individuals within the prison system. Will he elaborate a little on how the prison system is only one part of that? Obviously, there is the sentencing piece. The IPRT has spoken about not using short sentences because people serving short sentences cannot get intervention and we should be working with people in the community. Will Mr. Mullins talk a little more on the impact this has on recidivism rates and integration into the community among those leaving the prison system?
Mr. Eddie Mullins:
I am always amused when people talk about recidivism and then look at the Prison Service. If recidivism and criminal behaviour are reported in the media, it is usually reported with a prison in the backdrop. In reality, however, recidivism happens in the community, not in prison. With recidivism, a person comes into prison, serves his or her sentence, is released, drifts back into criminal behaviour and goes through the process again. That is how the recidivism rate is measured and how it happens.
Prisons are certainly not perfect, but when people come into prison and avail of whatever services are available, be it work, training, education, addiction services or psychology services, they go through that process and then when they leave prison they very often find themselves back in the community with no support. After engaging with the various services within the prison, there is then a void. The people who are involved in criminal behaviour are out there waiting for people to come out of prison and lure them back into this criminality. A void is created, which is clearly evident when people go back into the community. We meet and talk regularly to people who come back into prison. For example, we might see a guy who comes in after being out for a month. When we ask them what happened, they are very open about it and tell us straight away that as soon as they left prison, they had nowhere to go, could not stay with their mother or whatever it might be. Then, a lad they met in prison looked after them, sorted them out with something and the whole cycle started again. The piece that is missing is strong support for people in the community. That does not only mean accommodation but addiction services and employment. A person coming out of prison is used to a structured day. All of a sudden, the day is long and people have nothing to do but drift around and may drift back into their previous company. As I have always said, prison is only a portion of the rehabilitation process. The majority of it should happen in the community.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Mullins. My next question is for Ms McCaffrey. Education has been coming up a lot in the contributions. As Mr. Graham said, education plays a key role and people's suffering increases with the realisation that having the knowledge is not always going to introduce everything they may need. Will Ms McCaffrey speak about the importance of education within prison and how we can continue to engage on that? I spent some time with prisoners at Wheatfield Prison recently. While the population of that prison is growing, access to education has stayed the same, as regards the number of classrooms, the number of staff and other resources. Perhaps Ms McCaffrey will address the importance of education in rehabilitation and the role of the prison in that.
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
We are hugely proud of our prison education units and the work they do with men and women in our custody on a daily basis and instilling a love for lifelong learning. We know that person will then bring this back to his or her community and, in the case of a parent, back to his or her children.
The demographics of the prison population are interesting. The statistics show that 70% of our population are early school-leavers. I did an exercise at one point, which found that the average school-leaving age of people in custody two years ago was 14 years. For many men and women who come into the prison system, their first meaningful engagement with education is in a prison school. It is the first time they discover that they have skills or talents, and they have really creative talents. Anybody who has been in a prison will have seen the artwork and creative writing that is done. People go on to do their junior certificate, leaving certificate and university courses, including the Open University. There are a lot of people in our system who have real talent. The really regrettable thing is that they have only discovered those talents within a prison education setting.
From my perspective, the issue is one of education and how we can keep people engaged in the education system within their community. We know that one of the factors that can lead to a person engaging in crime is disengagement from the educational system. We also know that one of the dynamic risk factors we need to address to ensure somebody desists from crime is to give people educational qualifications and employability skills so they can go on to further education or employment in the community.
Mr. Graham mentioned some of the work being done at the National University of Ireland Maynooth. That is really incredible in making third level education more welcoming and open to ex-offenders. Dr. Séamus Taylor has been a leader in this field by breaking down some of the barriers and allowing people to see themselves as third level students while they are in custody and when they leave custody. I would also point to the University of Cork, which co-delivers some modules on some courses in Cork Prison where the classroom is made up of people from the community and people who are in custody. Education can really unlock huge potential in people while they are custody. It can also help people to discover talents that they have.
There is also a piece around self-worth, self-value and self-belief. That is what is being instilled in our prison education schools. Prison education is provided by the Department of Education. We have 220 full-time equivalent teachers and we are very grateful for that investment. We are also doing some work at the moment with the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Simon Harris, in looking at pathways to apprenticeships. We could certainly align what we are delivering at a prison level, particularly in the work training area, with pathways to apprenticeships and further education when people are released.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Ms McCaffrey.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There will be another round of questions after this first round, so there will be further opportunities for engagement.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I welcome the witnesses and thank them for coming in today. I speak as the co-convener, with Deputy Bacik, of the Oireachtas penal reform group. I thank the witnesses for the opportunity to visit Mountjoy Prison and the Dóchas Centre yesterday. We had a very important tour and I appreciate the engagement of all of the staff. I thank Molly Joyce who came with us yesterday. She supports the Oireachtas penal reform group intellectually, administratively and in every other way practical way. I thank the Irish Penal Reform Trust for that.
I welcome in particular Mr. Graham from Loughan House. This is a very important initiative and I congratulate Senator Ruane on taking it. The witnesses are very welcome and I thank them for joining us today.
I am very concerned about the effect on the rehabilitation programmes of the need to have prison staff constantly working as prison escorts. Who is responsible for that? Who do I point to?
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
Part of the day-to-day activity within a prison is to bring people for future court dates, if they have them. Approximately 20% of our population is made up of remand prisoners who obviously have quite a lot of court activity. There are also the sentenced prisoners who have future court dates and would need to attend court. There are resources within our system, known as the Prison Service escort corps which is funded to do about 12,000 escorts per year. Prior to Covid, we were doing about 30,000 physical escorts to court. Obviously, the resources to do this must come from within our body of staff. Regrettably, that comes from prison offices assigned to other tasks within the prison being diverted to carry out court escort duties.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How do we get to a solution on that? Is it a matter for the Courts Service to change the requirement to attend court or the frequency with which people are attending court? Is there a different model or is the solution simply more staff?
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
We have been working hard over the pandemic when a lot of court activity went online. From a safety perspective, it was much safer for prisoners to appear online. The statistics on physical attendance at court show that in 2018, there were 30,663 physical attendances and just under 3,500 attendances by video link. In 2021, however, the number of people who attended by video link increased to over 20,000. We are making progress in this regard.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I suppose it is also a judgment call and this does not only relate to criminal cases.
It is important to be available to attend, although whether it is necessary to attend every occasion is a question. It is also very important to be able to attend childcare proceedings, in particular. Personally, I would prioritise being able to attend childcare proceedings, where a person's family is at stake, over every remand appearance, as it were, in the Courts Service. That is my observation, but I believe it is important to highlight it because I have such a short amount of time, although I can come back in.
A particular concern, and this is quite a big question, is the status of women in the prison system generally. There are only approximately 200 in the population, and I thank the witnesses for the opportunity to visit the Dóchas Centre yesterday. The profile of the people there is very different. The nature of offences that have been committed, the addiction issues and the mental health issues are replicated across the male prison population, but the scale of violence that has been visited on many of the women who have ended up in the Dóchas Centre and get to the point where they are there, and many of them have committed non-violent offences and have very significant trauma issues, is a massive concern. Clearly, addiction and mental health issues are primary issues in the male prison population as well, but I have a particular concern about whether the model that is used in the Dóchas Centre, and I do not mean to blame the Dóchas Centre or Limerick, is the appropriate model for providing support to women who overwhelmingly need addiction, mental health and other health needs addressed in the first instance. Is there something different that is a more health-based model? Is there something different that is a more open-prison model that we can look at to provide more supportive services for a group of people who are very excluded from their families as much as from their broader communities?
Ms Molly Joyce:
I am happy to give an initial viewpoint from the IPRT's perspective. All the issues the Deputy raised in respect of women in prison are matters of serious concern for the IPRT. They are a particularly vulnerable and at-risk group. In terms of what is better, the short answer is "not prison". They should not be sent to prison. We generally see, and I do not have exact statistics to hand, that women appear to be remanded into custody and sent to prison sometimes because of a misguided paternalistic view of the court. That is what I hear sometimes from lawyers, that judges think they will be safer if they are sent to prison than if they do not send them there. However, that is a failing of social policy, because there is nowhere else for them to go. The short answer is "somewhere else".
The Deputy mentioned open prisons. There are no open prisons for women in Ireland. That is a massive problem and it must be addressed. It is something that has been said for many years. We have an outlook programme now where women have a step-down facility, essentially, but the numbers available there do not appear to be as many as are needed.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There is also no type of interim model in respect of mental health treatment. There are some women there who need particular medication to support their mental health needs and to put them on a path where they can do other things and get their lives back in a more structured way. As far as I can see, there is no model between that and the Central Mental Hospital, although I am open to correction.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I agree with Mr. Black that they are very good.
Mr. Fergal Black:
We have excellent nurses, doctors and psychologists. We have input from the National Forensic Mental Health Service. The services that women get, albeit within a custodial setting, are excellent. However, what we are doing in Limerick in the development of the new prison, and we have taken a great deal of international advice on this, is developing a facility which is tailored to the needs of women. There are no bars on the windows. It is a completely different structure and viewpoint because women are different. Women who come into custody have a complex range of needs, and they are compounded. Generally, their children could have gone into care. They have been subject to sexual violence, domestic violence-----
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, that is my point.
Mr. Fergal Black:
-----and all the issues relating to mental health and addiction. Within our structures and within a correctional setting, we provide a reasonably good service. What we have done in the last couple of years, in recognition of the fact that there is no open prison, is provide a step-down facility in the centre of Dublin, the outlook centre, where women can effect a transition more safely from custody to community. However, I agree with the Deputy that women who come into prison, mainly because they have an accumulation of charges but for relatively minor offences, have an abundance of social issues.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I could not agree more. I know I am over time, but we are using a custodial model as the only model that is available, notwithstanding how good it is, for somebody who has stolen sandwiches repeatedly, whose children have been separated into various care facilities or care solutions, who has not committed a violent offence, who has been the victim of violence, including sexual violence and domestic violence, and has addiction issues and mental health issues. There may be a step-down facility but perhaps there should be an interim step-up facility as well where those issues could be addressed more quickly.
I thank the witnesses for the opportunity to engage on this. I will come back with other questions on the second round.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank all the witnesses for their time and effort and for their opening statements. I was struck by the comment, I think it was from Mr. Mullins, that many people have no home to go to and nobody to welcome them. To follow up on previous questions, it seems clear that we have a system in the Prison Service that does its best. Clearly, it does not always reach the level that everyone would like to see, but it does its best. The difficulty is that many people who have grown up in a chaotic or dysfunctional environment end up in prison. In fairness, Mr. Graham mentioned that experts would say that prison is the destiny that awaits people from his background. That is the problem. When they leave prison they go back into that dysfunctional, for want of a better word, or chaotic lifestyle or community. How do we try to find a solution for that whereby we can resolve that problem? Where is the solution that needs to be plugged in here? If we have a system in which people grow up in environments where there is addiction, crime and so forth in their community, naturally they fall into that. They go into prison, progress is made and then they leave prison and find themselves back in the same situation again. Where do we resolve that?
Mr. Fergal Black:
I will try to answer that before others respond. It is fair to say that the Prison Service has developed a more outward-looking view for the last ten to 15 years. There was a point in time where people came into custody, we managed their sentence and we released them. Now, when people come into custody we work with them and, as we did with Mr. Graham, we try to develop their capacity. We also work with them in terms of that transition from custody to community. I believe we have made significant inroads. However, it cannot be left at the door of the Prison Service. Over the last five years, we have a developed a couple of things. We have a protocol with the Department of Social Protection so that somebody coming out of custody will get a payment on the day of release. Somebody coming out of custody who served a sentence for six months will get a medical card, which ensures the person's prescription for essential medication is not interrupted.
Where we have had less success is with accommodation. We have a point of contact with each of the 31 local authorities and we work with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. For most single men who make up the vast majority of people in custody, coming out of custody means going into short-term emergency accommodation and that is not ideal. However, that is a reflection of what is happening in society. We have to continue to work with the statutory agencies to ensure they see people who are in custody as citizens, and that was not always the case.
The final thing, as an indication of positive developments in this area, is that we created a Housing First criminal justice model over the last year. We now have 75 places so people coming out of custody or who are involved in probation supervision can get wraparound services. Some of these people have complex needs. They need to have an addiction worker or a mental health nurse. One of the differences from Housing First generally is that in the criminal justice Housing First there is a key worker who will ensure they will go to their probation officer, go to court and so forth. To date, of the 14 people we have placed in permanent tenancies, 11 have sustained those tenancies. We have funding for 75 tenancies. It is a Dublin-only proposal, but in Housing for All it is proposed to make it nationwide. Some work has been done, but there is a lot more to do.
Mr. Eddie Mullins:
The Deputy asked what might work. I certainly believe employment is a big problem. As I said earlier, when people have nothing to do they drift into non-productive activity. There are models. There is a model in the UK where a company called Timpsons, a key cutting and shoe repair service with a couple of hundred shops in the UK, has a policy of employing 10% of the workforce from among ex-offenders. Mr. James Timpson, who comes from a very privileged background, talked about their experience when they took on some ex-offenders.
They had a pilot whereby they took ten prisoners on and told nobody. It was a disaster, but he kept at it. The point is that it is not straightforward when people come out of prison. It is something you have to keep coming back to. People will make mistakes and slip up. We need commitment from employers and employer groups. Many people say that they will take on offenders but when it comes to the crunch, it does not happen. That is one of the areas where progress could be made.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is clear that Mr. Graham has done an awful lot of work to get to the position he is in today. While much work is being done by everyone involved in the system, there are clearly a large number of people who went to prison at the same time he did who did not make that progress. Many people said in their contributions that there has to be a commitment on behalf of the prisoner to make an effort and try to change. For those who do not, who are unable to do so or do not have the capacity, what additional level of assistance is needed to ensure a higher number of prisoners are able to make that transition?
Mr. Warren Graham:
Personal responsibility is important but in light of what Mr. Mullins and Mr. Black said, I would point out that there is system of punishment as a result of addiction or whatever else. A guy might have a slip and be thrown from his emergency accommodation for giving dirty urine, for example. He is immediately punished for his addiction issues if he has a slip. Second chances are great but sometimes, as Mr. Mullins said about the Timpson thing, people need to give a little more than just that one chance. It is the same in prison. If a guy is working hard in a course or engaging with education and he has an incident that gives him a P19, he will slip down from enhanced to basic or standard status. It takes a while to get back up but he may not be given the opportunity to get back up because he is seen as a problem because he has had a slip or a couple of slips. There needs to be a bit more care and concern about the fact that people will slip and that it will not be straightforward. It was not straightforward for me. It takes a long time. Thankfully, I am in a position where I constantly keep engaging. I do not fear a slip. It is inevitable, in a sense. More care and concern in dealing with individuals and their particular needs is important.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is addiction, which many prisoners would have, a big problem in respect of that?
Mr. Warren Graham:
Addiction is a problem for society as a whole. It does not end in prison. Some of the services are stretched and it is not always easy to engage with a counsellor or psychology or probation services immediately. There are drugs in prison. That is no secret. If people are not getting the services they need, there is a chance they are getting something else they desire.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank all the contributors. It has been a very interesting discussion among all the participants. Senator Ruane put her finger on it at the outset when she said everybody seemed to be on the same page with regard to the issues and problems. Everybody is sitting on the bus but we do not have a driver to bring us to the destination we all want to end up in. That is not to take away from the fact that some great work has been done in the prisons. Mr. Mullins said something in his contribution about buy-in from the entire community. It is all very well having good services within the prison system but unless we get community buy-in, be that from employers or communities at large, all the good work being done in the Prison Service will be undone whenever individuals go back out into the community again.
I acknowledge the presence of Mr. Graham. It is great to see him on the road he is on. He has walked the walk and talked the talk. I do not want to personalise this but how long was he in prison before he decided to embark on the road on which he now finds himself? Does he feel there is an appetite among other inmates to go down that road or is it something people refuse to look at?
Mr. Warren Graham:
I would hope there is an appetite from every inmate to engage in education, and in rehabilitation as a result of that. As I said in my submission, I started in school to engage in music, learn guitar and do home economics for a decent bit of grub. It was through that that the teachers coerced me into QQI courses. I was five years in when I started my degree in the Open University. It took six years to do and by the end of it I had completely turned myself around. My thoughts, my ideology and everything else had changed as a result of education. As I mentioned earlier, and as Senator Ruane picked up on, the knowledge is great but it hurts to realise that it probably was my destiny, and that of a lot of others like me, to be in prison. Whether rehabilitation works or not society needs to have some form of responsibility for preventing prisoners, basically. Rehabilitation is for the aftermath of a crime but preventing crime must be done from early on.
On prisoner engagement, there is good participation in the education system and particularly in music and arts, as Ms McCaffrey pointed out. There is a lot of creativity in prison. Guys get the opportunity to engage and the teachers and the education department give them that kind of engagement and the time and space they need to find themselves. It is a credit to them. The teachers would have been the biggest positive influence on me in prison. I hope there is a strong appetite from prisoners to engage in education and help themselves, their families and their communities upon their return.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I wish Mr. Graham all the best whenever he moves on.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Ms McCreery mentioned mental health waiting times. From a practical point of view, if someone is looking for help in that regard, what kind of waiting times are we talking about before that individual would be seen?
Ms Sarahjane McCreery:
PIPS reported a range of waiting times but the longest waiting time for a psychology group, for example, was up to four years. That was in 2021. That was information the IPS provided to us and we are very grateful for that information. To address a few things that were said earlier, of the four key issues we have covered today, three relate to things outside of the prison's control. Reducing the prison population lies with the courts, mental health and addiction supports lie with the community and post-release barriers and opportunities require joined-up thinking between the IPS and the community. The Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Degrading Treatment, CPT, described prisons in Ireland as a dumping ground because people with mental health issues should not be going to prison in the first instance. While something needs to be done about the waiting times for the Central Mental Hospital, these people should not be in prison in the first place. There should be supports in the community to support them so they do not end up there.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Ms McCreery. I may come back in on the second round of questions, if that is okay.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the Senator for those questions. The next speaker is Deputy Pa Daly.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Tá fáilte roimh na finnéithe go léir. I welcome all six witnesses, but particularly Mr. Mullins, who is a recent appointment. I congratulate him on that. Ms Gavin referred to 17 vacancies in the work training area. Does Mr. Mullins know where they are?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Are steps being taken to fill those?
Mr. Fergal Black:
I can cover this point. We have a complement of 381 work training officers across the system. Ten of those are involved with the training unit. Some 325 of those posts are filled at the moment. We have made 26 recent promotional assignments to them. We are running through another range of assignments. We will get to a point that is much closer to 380 in the coming months. Yet, at present, 325 out of 371 of the posts are filled. The posts are there. They provide work training across a whole range of areas. We have 120 workshops across the system, including everything from computer studies, to construction, to joinery and to metal work. These are across a whole range of areas. We have had some difficulties in filling posts, but we are resolving that at the moment.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I might come back to that point. Mr. Mullins made an interesting point about attempting to reintegrate people. Many of those I come across, both when I used to work in the courts and currently, are people who are not integrated at all. They are outsiders and they might be homeless. I note what Ms McCaffrey said about the integration sentence management, which deals with a combination of employment and education to help them. However, many of the people I speak to have served their sentences, many of which are short sentences. I spoke to one prisoner this morning who said that he left Cork Prison. He is back out, but there is nothing there for him. He had to go and find an accommodation officer himself because he had no job. He was put back into a homeless shelter where there was a lot of drug taking. People like him do not have much of a chance. It is difficult for him to reintegrate and to rehabilitate himself when he gets back out because of all of the difficulties, such as having no job. It is not a structured environment. That is the area in which I am most interested. It is extremely frustrating to see people who would have a chance but who are not getting it. I note what was said in response to an earlier question, namely, that there are more prisoners, and those who are on remand in particular, who are attending by video link. There should be spaces freed up to help people.
On the issue of courses, I note what was said, I think by Mr. Mullins about the number of psychologists. There is one psychologist for every 257 prisoners and there are 531 prisoners who are awaiting counselling. I remember that if there was a prisoner who was remanded in custody and who needed a psychiatrist’s report while on remand, it was practically impossible to get. My question to the IPS is whether any steps have been taken to address the problems? Even in the wider community it is very hard to get community services, such as psychologists and other types of therapists. What steps have been taken to address those waiting lists? For example, for those who are on shorter sentences, the Safe Pass course is a very good one. How many people were given certificates for a Safe Pass courses in 2019, 2020 and 2021? Do the witnesses know the figure? I think that in the Midlands Prison there are two drugs counsellors for approximately 700 or 800 prisoners. Do the witnesses think that is enough to deal with the situation there? They might answer some of those questions first and then I will come back in.
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
I will first pick up on the Deputy’s point about people who come to prison for short sentences. There is quite a lot of conversation happening at a policy level within the Department at the moment in terms of the effectiveness of criminal justice sanctions. International research will show that community-based sanctions are much more effective for people who do not pose a great risk to public safety. This is because the issues of mental illness, mental health, addiction and skills deficits are better dealt with within the community. They are better supported within their communities. Certainly, the evidence points in that direction.
As part of the programme for Government, there was a working group established to look at penal policy options. Certainly, some of the priority recommendations coming out of that report, which is currently with the Minister and is due to be published shortly, is around expanding the range of community sanctions available to the courts to deal with people who are serving short-term sentences. From a prison service perspective, it takes time to adequately engage with somebody on their addiction, on their mental health or on their mental illness, as well as to give somebody an educational qualification. Unfortunately, if a person is in custody for two, three or four months, they will not get the benefit of those services. There are waiting lists.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In relation to what the former governor, Mr. Gavin, said about the workshops being routinely closed, as well as about all these waiting lists, would the IPS be address any of that in the next year or two? I refer particularly to the waiting lists for drug counsellors.
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
The reality is there are waiting lists to access services within the prisons. From an IPS perspective, because those services require a period for us to actively engage with an offender, they are better directed towards people who are serving longer sentences. We have sufficient work training officers. There are issues, which I think Deputy Carroll MacNeill mentioned in respect of-----
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Ms McCaffrey anticipate any improvement in that, for example, in how the workshops are routinely closed, as well as the waiting lists? Does she anticipate any improvement in that over the next two years?
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
Absolutely. We have been doing quite a lot of work over the last couple of years on an operational dashboard for the IPS. It is aimed at looking at our performance on every level of activity within our service, at every prison, as well as at a corporate level. This is to identify where the deficits are and where we need to make improvements. There is ongoing and significant commitment from ourselves to improve our services and to improve access to services. There are some systemic issues that need to be addressed, but they are currently being looked at and addressed. We are therefore ambitious in terms of increasing our participation rates in all of those areas.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does this relate to the review that is taking place?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Has that been completed?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I might come back in with more questions in the second round.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the Deputy. That concludes the first round of questions. Everybody who wanted to get in during the first round has got in. I have some questions before we move to the second round. Members may indicate if they want to come in for the second round.
I have been following the debate with interest. A number of interesting points have emerged. I would like to make a few comments. I noticed that Mr. Graham’s experience is unique to the committee, in terms of his own experience, where he is and how he is getting on. I know that he has been studying. He has been looking at academics. He raised an interesting point about whether prison is about retribution or about rehabilitation. When I studied law we were told that it is all about rehabilitation. Mr. Tom O’Malley was extremely influential in our studies. It is all about rehabilitation. It is interesting that sometimes the academic world jars with the reality. I am hearing from people other than Mr. Graham, although I know he is putting it in context of the wider debate, when we are asking the question about whether this about revenge, it jars with the world view. Perhaps Mr. Graham knows a more about it than I do because he is in the system. That is concerning, if that is the experience from inside, although I know he is couching it in terms of the wider experience.
I picked up on a few of Mr. Graham's other remarks, which relate to questions that I was going to ask to all of the group, in terms of whether some people are considered beyond hope. It is almost a case of having to throw away the key, that there is a revolving door and that some people who are in prison now will be back in prison again. That view can take hold, which again would be worrying if that was the case. I see evidence of that sometimes in courts, etc.
My first question is more about alternative policies in prison, but they go back to the opportunities for rehabilitation in prison. On the note about people being considered beyond hope, there is a view abroad, certainly among people who practise as solicitors or barristers or others involved with the criminal justice system, that if somebody has not been in prison before, there is an imperative to keep them out of prison. This is because there is a view that if somebody goes across the line once and goes behind bars once, they are almost gone for life, even if it might be a three- or six-month sentence. There is almost a deterrent. Much of the discussion today has been around sentencing, but I will not go into that. There is a view that if someone appears before a court and they have not ever been inside, they are less likely to get a custodial sentence. However, there might be someone coming along and say, “They were there before and it is no big deal and they can go back again”.
I have experience from when I was practising in the criminal courts at one stage. One issue that shocked me in my early years was that people who had up to and more than 100 convictions for minor offence would arrive into a court. These are not people who have had very serious charges against them, but who have repeated minor offences.
Evidently, prison is not working in their cases. Some of them were in for terms and were then out again. I am not sure what else could work. Perhaps it is a rhetorical question, but how have we as a society ended up in a situation where someone can be before a court with that number of convictions? If keeping people in prison as a place of rehabilitation is not the answer, then what is? Perhaps we will start with that point and if anyone wishes to contribute, he or she is welcome to raise a hand.
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
As to whether anyone is beyond hope, my clear view is that no one is. One of the core values of the Prison Service is potential and we see our role as unlocking the potential of the men and women in our care so as to ensure that, when they return to society, they can lead lives free of crime. We passionately believe that everyone is more than his or her greatest mistake. Everyone has to have hope for his or her future. We view our prisons as institutions of opportunity. Everyone has the opportunity to change and needs to be encouraged and supported in that.
The Chairman referred to how someone could amass 100 convictions and potentially be serving short-term sentences. The factors giving rise to that offending in the first place are what need to be addressed, for example, addiction or mental illness. Unfortunately, when those people enter our system for two, three or four months, we cannot work with them intensively enough to address their underlying issues and lead to desistance.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is interesting. Does anyone else wish to contribute?
Ms Molly Joyce:
I will make a point that ties into sentencing. The establishment of the sentencing guidelines and information committee is welcome. It offers an opportunity to have a frank discussion about what factors are taken into account and whether it is right that a person is more likely to be sent to prison because he or she has been in prison before or whether it should be an express factor that cannot be taken into consideration. Thankfully, we are now in a position of having a forum in which these matters can be discussed, which was not the case previously.
I often track local media reports to get a sense of what is happening in the courts and the kinds of decision being made. Let us try to put ourselves in the place of a judge who has someone with hundreds of convictions before him or her. I have heard of people with 500 convictions. Much of the time, that judge has nowhere else to send the person and has no other response to give. The judge wants to show that the offence is not condoned but has no other option available. There is no clear mechanism, which ties into a more complicated point about mental health, the ways in which people can be transferred out and the diversionary aspects. The high-level task force implementation plan, which was promised by the end of last year and is now in the justice plan, which was yesterday promised for the end of this month, needs to be published and implemented without further delay. It needs to be tracked so that we do not drift further away from the targets.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have a follow-on question. It was mentioned that there was not enough time to work with people who went to prison, but many people who commit offences do not go to prison in any event. Ms Joyce mentioned the justice plan. What specific alternatives could or should be deployed instead of prison for people who go to prison habitually for relatively minor matters?
Ms Molly Joyce:
In the justice plan, there is a plan to review the criminal justice (community sanctions) Bill 2014. As the Chairman can see from the year, it has been on the books for a long time, so it would be great to get it over the line. The review will cover the available options.
I have worked in another jurisdiction with people coming out of prison. We need an intensive programme, staffing and resources. We need people who can go on that journey with the person. It is not a simple matter. We cannot send someone to a residential programme for two weeks and believe it will undo a lifetime of trauma and disadvantage. We need to have realistic alternatives and talk about where we are putting our money. Prison is costly and community sanctions are cheaper. We must resist the urge to react in an immediate way. For example, increasing sentences seems like a cost-neutral measure to respond to something, but it is not cost neutral. It is actually very expensive. This is a question of reassessing where we are putting our resources.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Ms Joyce. A statistic jumped out from Mr. Mullins's opening remarks, namely, that people from areas of social deprivation were 25 times more likely to end up in prison. That is a stark statistic. I am guessing that they are more likely to follow that path because, due to the environment they are in or others before them having gone down that path, it is an easier path to follow. To a lesser extent, it may be the case that people from more affluent backgrounds are better able to - I will not say defend, because everyone should hopefully be entitled to the same defence - present stronger mitigating factors and so on. How do we break the cycle? Being 25 times more likely is not a good number.
Mr. Eddie Mullins:
I am so long in the Prison Service that I am now seeing the children of people who were in prison when I first joined. Imprisonment is generational. There is no question about it. When they see me, a significant number of people coming into prison now will talk to me instead of the people they are visiting because they remember me from 20 years ago. That is the reality.
We cannot put prisoners into a one-size-fits-all category. There is a large number of people in prison who have no interest in rehabilitation because they make a significant amount of money out of criminal behaviour. They prey on other people in prison. It is like business leaders and followers in the community. We have leaders who are making money out of criminal behaviour. They come into prison, are happy to serve whatever sentence they get and then resume their criminality activities when they get out.
I referred to drug-related intimidation. I can think of an incident - I mentioned it to Deputy Carroll MacNeill yesterday - whereby a lady contacted me some time ago. Her son had been assaulted in one of our exercise yards. She was disturbed by the fact that he had been assaulted and wanted to know why we had not informed her first hand. We explained that he was a grown man, it had not been a life and death situation and our procedure was not to contact family members unless it was. When I had the opportunity to ask the lady why she thought he had been assaulted, she said that it was because he had amassed a drug debt of approximately €6,000. She was approached in the community and told that she had to pay the €6,000 or, if she did not, he would be killed the next time. She went to a moneylender and borrowed the €6,000. I asked her how she was paying the money back. She said "the girls", whom I assumed were her daughters, and herself met the moneylender every week and paid a certain amount back.
She was told all of this outside the school her grandchildren attended. She stopped bringing the grandchildren to school because she was afraid she would be attacked outside it. That one drug debt affected three generations. The man in prison was safe in prison but the grandmother, grandchildren and daughters were paying that drug debt.
This is a systemic problem in the community. There is a great deal of drug intimidation and violence against family members. There is a fear among families to report it to the Garda because they feel they are being watched and followed. It is another aspect of criminal behaviour and activity and how they affect not just the person in prison, but also the wider family and community.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It was mentioned that, while many people were happy to be guided through rehabilitation and it worked well for them, a certain percentage did not want it because of a criminal and financial enterprise. I know that giving a figure is difficult, but is the ratio 75:25, 50:50 or 90:10?
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Which relates to the first point.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am conscious that we are straying over time, but I wish to give Mr. Graham a chance. Does he wish to comment on those exchanges?
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, and on deprivation.
Mr. Warren Graham:
I suppose they can be criminogenic. It falls on personal responsibility and choice. The opportunities for rehabilitation are there, but they are limited. Ms McCaffrey said that the Prison Service's mission was unlocking potential, but not everyone gets the opportunity or equal access to engage in some programmes to unlock that potential. It is not a straight-cut matter. Very few people will have reached where I am today and, unfortunately, very few people will follow behind me. It has to do with the choices they make. There are a number of factors. For example, the reputations they come to jail with have a major impact on them over the course of their sentences and the duration of their lives. Given the opportunity to change, they often do, but they are still perceived the same way as when they went to prison. That is a big problem.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will move on to the second round after my final question. Why is it that not everyone gets those chances? Is it because a person's reputation precedes him or her? Is it because he or she has other difficulties?
Why does everyone not get the same opportunities?
Mr. Warren Graham:
I suppose reputation is one aspect, but other issues are also involved. In legislation and in practice, other factors are at work. Some people, for example, are in prison for crimes that disqualify them from participating in the temporary release programme or from availing of certain benefits that derive from engaging with the rehabilitation process. Basically, those prisoners just sit back. They are going to do their time, regardless of what they do, so they engage very little because they do not see the point in doing so if there are no real rewards at the end. That is another small problem.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is a very useful insight. I thank Mr. Graham. I call Senator Ruane to commence the second round of questions.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We have a shorter amount of time in this round, so we must be concise. We went from a question that referred to everyone having hope to the targeting of 10% of prisoners. I would like to put the hope back in for those 10% of prisoners, whom we are potentially discouraging from engaging with these programmes because they are imprisoned for particular reasons, to ensure we are not hypocritical in the context of what we said previously.
I have some other questions I hope we can get answers to. Will Ms McCreery or Ms Joyce, or both, elaborate on the drug policy mentioned, which is an area of great interest for me? I am interested in ideas such as the use of naloxone in the prison system and being able to teach prisoners how to use it. I wonder if the witnesses have a comment on this aspect.
Ms Sarahjane McCreery:
The Progress in the Irish Penal System, PIPS, report 2021 found that the IPS drugs policy was published in 2006. It is entitled Keeping Drugs Out of Prison, so I think that speaks for itself. It is not based on harm reduction and is not aligned with the national drugs strategy. Three principles are cited in the policy. One is essentially concerned with reducing supply at all costs, another focuses on encouraging communication about drugs and the third is devoted to supporting people in the context of their drug use, which means the principles all contradict each other. Therefore, that drugs policy needs to be addressed as soon as possible. It should accord with the national drugs strategy and it should be updated.
Regarding harm reduction options, we requested information from the IPS regarding supports and treatment options for those using drugs in the prison system. We got little information in response. Information on drugs in prisons tends to be an area where PIPS found we do not get much information. I do not know the reason for that. It should be information that is publicly available regardless. We know there are limited harm reduction options in prison and that, for example, there is no access to a needle exchange programme. People get naloxone when they leave prison, but not while they are in prison. I am not aware of any programme where people in prison are trained in peer support and what to do in situations where someone has an overdose, for example, which often happens in hostels. We know drugs are used in prisons, with one in two prisoners doing so.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Brilliant. I thank Ms McCreery. Turning to Ms Gavin, and to draw on her experience regarding some of the gaps that exist in the system, and I refer to issues such as vacancies, one major area that stands out for me is the lack of digital literacy among people leaving prison. Does Ms Gavin think we must address this gap in the prison system by teaching people these skills? When people come out of prison, they will find that most bills are now paid online and almost everything else is online as well, yet we are not introducing this type of training. From her experience, does Ms Gavin think we should be looking to a more digitalised prison system?
Ms Ethel Gavin:
Absolutely, computer literacy is one area of computer workshops. It is wonderful to see Mr. Graham appearing here virtually today. I would have hoped that he would have been able to set up the link himself. Aspects like this are important. We tend to overthink and presume that people can do these things. One of the serious situations people encounter, however, is that they cannot do things online because they have not had access to digital literacy training. Mr. Graham has answered the question himself, because he should have been able to set up this meeting today. He would have learned exceptional skills from being able to do so.
During the last two years, we all learned how to use Zoom, MS Teams and Webex by Cisco. As someone of a more senior age, I am now really good at using all these software platforms. The practical thing we need to do is to start thinking about what this means for someone like Mr. Graham. If he had been able to set up a meeting like this one, he would have learned a hell of a lot about the digital world. Therefore, it is important that we focus more on this aspect of training. I keep saying "we" because I keep thinking I am still in a job, but this is something the Prison Service needs to focus on now. I refer to the importance of having a knowledge of the digital world in allowing people to move forward with their lives. This includes being able to use apps like Revolut, but also something as simple as being comfortable with the communications platform we are using this morning.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Brilliant. I have one last question for Mr. Graham. He has been in prison for a while now, but he has also lived through the Covid-19 pandemic in the prison system. Can he speak a little about the impact of that experience? In society beyond the prisons, free hugs were being offered in the streets at one stage because people were so deprived of human touch and because of the resulting impacts felt from that loss. During Covid-19, people may have got a small taste of what it was like to be so removed from touch, although that was only true for those people who did not live in a home with others. Will Mr. Graham talk a little about the response to the Covid-19 pandemic, the impact of the virus, the effects of a lack of human contact and how that might have interrupted rehabilitation efforts for many?
Mr. Warren Graham:
In light of what Ms Gavin said, Covid-19 was the perfect opportunity to introduce distance learning technology. Some people, including me, have laptops and we engage and do our assignments using MS Word, etc., but there could also have been a programme similar to what was suggested by Ms Gavin, where teachers could have engaged with guys in their cells during lockdown. I heard first-hand that teachers were willing to do that. The Covid-19 pandemic therefore was the perfect opportunity to undertake that kind of training.
Experiencing the Covid-19 pandemic in prison was tough. We did well in keeping the virus out of prisons, and there were fantastic levels of engagement by prisoners. In recent weeks and months, though, we have been hearing of restrictions easing and of people hugging in the outside world, as the Senator said. I think about 400,000 people were in Dublin on St. Patrick's Day. Yet I still cannot hug my mother, or pick my niece up when she comes to visit. That is heartbreaking for me and for many others like me, especially for some guys who have smaller kids and who have probably only been in prison throughout Covid-19. This has been their only experience of prison, whereas I have too much experience and I know what it was like before the onset of Covid-19. Strangely, I look forward to prison getting back to the way it was before the pandemic.
It has been tough when it comes to visits, regarding who it has been possible to get in to visit and the numbers of people allowed in at any one time, especially when it comes to choosing which of several kids should come today and which one in two weeks. The video calls were great. There were teething problems at the start, but they have come on greatly. It was some months before they were first available, but then it was a great opportunity for guys to see their families in the surrounds of their family homes again. Many guys would not have seen that for a long time. Therefore, the video calls were good.
Physical contact, however, has been a massive problem, because even if I hug a guy in here, I will probably be subject to isolation. Within the prison system, Covid seems to be as much of a problem as 12 months ago. We still seem to be in that phase from a year ago when it was really rampant. It is rampant again in society, but, thankfully, not with the levels of severe illness and the rates of admission to intensive care units, ICUs, as there were previously. Responsibility, though, does not seem to be being given to us in this context. It is as if we would be irresponsible with the responsibility, so they just take that from us and say this is how it should be, rather than saying, "listen lads, we have given you the opportunity, just be responsible". This has been a massive problem for me and for many others like me who have also been in prison for a long time. Like them, I would give anything to be able to hug my mother and to know she is all right, as well as my girlfriend and everyone else.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Graham.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Graham and Senator Ruane. I call Senator McDowell, who has joined us for the second round. The time for questions is now slightly shorter, but I will give some latitude.
Michael McDowell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I apologise. I was in the Seanad. I am sorry I missed the contributions thus far, but I had an opportunity to have a look at the submissions. I welcome all the speakers. I commend all the work being done and the efforts being made to concentrate on opportunities for rehabilitation, because they are important. I have two main points.
I see that the Government is now proposing, in the cases of life sentences, to allow judges to propose minimum terms. I express my doubts as to the correctness of that proposal. I say that because the individual circumstances of a person being sentenced to life imprisonment cannot be properly examined when he or she is at the receiving end of a mandatory sentence in an environment of high emotion, such as when other people are in court giving witness impact statements and the like. I do not think that is the right time to evaluate such individual circumstances. While it may be fashionable to suggest it, I am against it.
I would also like Mr. Mullins and Ms McCaffrey to briefly address the question of the infrastructure of our prison system. Is it conducive to rehabilitation? Are we in a position to separate people who are trying to get clean from drugs use or to disassociate from people who drag them back into crime?
Do we need to invest more in prisons? If I might raise this terrible canard, is Thornton Hall more badly needed than ever?
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
I might come in on the prisons question. We have two open prisons and one maximum security prison, and the rest of our prisons are really one-size-fits-all prisons with medium levels of security. We have been working on a prisoner progression plan, which would differentiate what each prison offers and what cohort of prisoners can be accommodated within each prison. There are issues, such as those relating to protection prisoners, that impact on the ability of other prisoners to access services in prisons, so we are potentially looking at cohorting in one prison prisoners who are really engaged in work training and cohorting those who are really engaged in education in another. We have continued the investment in the prison infrastructure. We are currently finishing the building of a new wing in Limerick Prison, which is a significant investment, and a stand-alone female prison, which is really welcome for the estate.
Our prison population was increasing just before Covid, between 2017 and 2020. In March 2020, we were full, so there has certainly been a respite in the context of reducing the number of committals over the Covid period. As I mentioned, a penal policy review is looking at what else can be done to arrest the growth in the prison population, and a significant capital budget of more than €35 million is available to us, which we continue to use to invest in modernising our infrastructure.
Mr. Eddie Mullins:
I concur with what Ms McCaffrey said. I agree that, on a practical level, if we can concentrate rehabilitation services in a prison that is more conducive to that, we should do that. I am thinking of Wheatfield Prison, for example, where I recently finished working. Its design is far more suitable than other prisons for rehabilitation programmes and work training skills, that is, the more practical skills. Mountjoy Prison is much more confined and the challenges are slightly different. It is a more chaotic prison, in many ways, and is perhaps better suited to a greater concentration on drug treatment programmes and mental health programmes, which do not require large facilities. It is more about people interacting than it is about large physical workshops. Our prisoner progression and flow plan will assist us in concentrating the resources where they are best suited and most needed.
Michael McDowell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When I was Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, I attended a meeting of governors that was held in the training unit at Midlands Prison. I suggested we should aim towards drug testing to really assist in rehabilitation. I am glad that generation of governors is not representative of today's generation, but there was a somewhat glazed look in their eyes when I proposed the routine drug testing of prisoners.
Michael McDowell (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is very difficult to argue that a prisoner is being rehabilitated if he or she is being fed on a drug habit throughout his or her term of imprisonment.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There was a good discussion of that earlier and the Senator's point is taken.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I neglected earlier to acknowledge victims in this context, as we should always do. I appreciate that Mr. Mullins did, but I did not and I should have. I support the call for the refurbishment of some of the houses in the Dóchas Centre. A quick paint job would not do any harm, although I appreciate he is working on that as a matter of urgency.
I wish to return to a point Mr. Graham and Mr. Mullins each made in slightly different ways regarding the background of the young people coming into the Prison Service. They both mentioned how people tend to come from very specific deprived areas. I return to research I have mentioned at previous committee meetings. In 2007, the Association for Criminal Justice Research and Development assessed the backgrounds of young people appearing before the Children Court. The 400 young people who were assessed at the court at that time were predominantly male, lived in specific and recurring disadvantaged localities in each of the court areas examined, did not live with their both of their parents and were not in full-time mainstream education. In fact, 86% of those for whom education information was available were not engaged in mainstream education. It is important to keep highlighting this point about the specific disadvantage that can exist. We have not managed to interrupt or change that.
Mr. Graham went on to refer - I think he and I are reading the same literature on criminal justice penal reform - to containment, rehabilitation, punishment and so on, and the research clearly shows a pattern of criminal behaviour, particularly in males between the ages of 20 and 35. I interpreted his point as indicating that people have got sick of this pattern over time, although he might correct me if I am not using the correct phrase. If that is what we are seeing persistently in the literature internationally, how can we interrupt it?
Senator McDowell referred to making determinations about life sentences and I accept his point about the challenges of doing so at the time of the conviction, but there are a number of people who are serving 30- or 40-year sentences as life sentences and others who will serve much less. Is there a value, from the perspective of someone in the prison system, in specifying a length of time, whether after the first or second year, to give a sense of certainty or a pathway? Are there other ways of thinking about this that are helpful from the perspective of the person in prison?
Mr. Warren Graham:
Whether it is from rehabilitation or otherwise, prisoners mature and eventually will grow tired of jail, especially if they are there long enough. I do not know how we can interrupt the patterns or whether we should engage with people at the age of 22 or 25 to prevent them waiting until they are 35 before they retire from criminality or prison. Rehabilitation and resources are a key to that. As Ms McCaffrey said in the context of prisons, if a governor deems Mountjoy not to be equipped for rehabilitation but deems Wheatfield is, it is then about selecting whether prisoners who are, say, receiving rehabilitation should be kept in Mountjoy. I did all my time in Mountjoy and did very well out of it, but that was my personal choice and responsibility. It worked for me but it will not work for everyone, although it can work for others.
On life sentences, guidelines would be helpful in the sense of having something to aim for. It used to take five years but now takes 12 years before a prisoner will see the parole board. If there were engagement early on with life sentence prisoners from the Prison Service's psychology and probation services, the 12 years could be something to aim for where the prisoner has met certain standards and he or she can then progress over the course of the following years into open centres and eventual release, whenever that may take place. As for having a minimum length of time, I do not know where that would start or finish. There are some prisoners who have been inside for 30 or 40 years, and it can be hard when you wonder whether that is to be your fate or that of guys who started at the same time as you. It is difficult to digest the fact somebody may have been 35 or 40 years in the prison system and will probably never get out. In any event, there is the question of what type of world he will be getting out into and how he or she will survive. There are many issues relating to life sentences. We are in a state of uncertainty and we do not know what the future looks like, and we will have to wait it out and see how it goes. New prisoners, if there is early engagement, can really benefit from rehabilitative opportunities and resources to help them over the course of those first 12 years.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Very few prisoners are at the 40-year stage but there are some high-profile prisoners who have served extremely long, perhaps disproportionately long, sentences. For whatever reason, it appears to be very difficult to let them go at this point. It is about putting a measure of certainty and equity around this in some way.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
All of us are contacted frequently by people who have been victims of crime. They may have had their lives brutalised or experienced significant trauma. Often, when we engage in this format and discuss these issues, we get a kickback. Many people feel their lives have been destroyed. In other jurisdictions, and to some extent in this jurisdiction as well, the use of restorative justice as a process has helped victims in this regard. What positive impacts can that process have, including for the prisoner or the person who has been convicted?
Is there a role for more constructive use of the restorative justice methods, especially for people on short sentences? We have learned today it is very difficult for them to make progress when they are in the system. It may be even more so with longer sentences. We need to look at that as a potential solution to some of these problems. I would be interested in the witnesses' thoughts on that.
Ms Molly Joyce:
I am happy to briefly address that issue. The Irish Penal Reform Trust is keenly aware of it. Obviously, there is the impact on victims. It is right that everyone referred to that issue and we are very conscious of it. It is interesting to note some research we are aware of by Professor Joanna Shapland in the UK. It has looked at what people within the criminal justice systems, people in prison and victims and their families want. Sometimes people want the same thing. They want to be heard, they want fairness and they want to feel justice has been done. They sometimes align much more than our current system acts like they do. Restorative justice is a key way in which we can actualise that. We welcome that is being referenced in the Department's planning, having been referenced in the justice plan published yesterday. At the moment, our perception of what is happening with restorative justice is that it is quite haphazard. It kind of exists within the system but most people do not know about it. Many victims do not know it exists as an option and if they did know, they might be interested in it as it can offer them many benefits. As the Deputy said, restorative justice can also offer many benefits to the person in prison. It can offer them an opportunity to address their offending and move past it in a way that is much more useful, I suppose, than just being punished and feeling like they have been thrown away in prison. Obviously there are others here, including Mr. Graham, who might have particular insights on that.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is one of the problems that restorative justice is so haphazard? Does it need to be more formalised?
Ms Molly Joyce:
Yes, absolutely. One of the issues raised in the plan published yesterday was trying to ensure that when a person goes into the system initially, he or she will be given a formalised opportunity to engage within it. What I have also been told is that it can depend to some extent on the judge, who may or may not be interested in or aware of it. A much more cohesive national system is needed across the entire criminal justice system.
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
We are working with Dr. Ian Marder of Maynooth University on a restorative justice strategy for the Prison Service. We see its applicability not just to victims' issues but also to inter-prisoner conflict or relationship issues that can arise among staff and prisoners. It could potentially be used among staff as well. The Probation Service is doing quite a lot of work on restorative justice within the community sanctions area.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Mr. Graham is indicating.
Mr. Warren Graham:
Communication is key and a restorative justice approach would be amazing. I know some guys who have asked for it and came up against some barriers with finding out how exactly it is run. They only recently found out it is run through the Probation Service. It is available but not easily got. Of course, a consensus is needed among all the parties involved but it is massively important to many guys who come in here, especially first-time offenders and those who are in prison as a result of accidental incidents that might have resulted in a crime taking place. As Ms Joyce said, if restorative justice is to be advertised more and made available, it would be a phenomenal achievement. I would surmise the uptake would be quite astounding from a prisoner perspective.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Following on from what was said earlier on about open prisons, I note Mr. Graham is in an open prison now, having spent time in the other services. I think 6% of prisoners are in open prisons in this State. To take the example of Finland, one third of prisoners are in open prisons there. I came across a number of people who had difficulty accessing open prisons when they went to prison. They had to wait until half their sentence had been served or for a particular period of time. Even then, from a Kerry perspective, Loughan House or Shelton Abbey are very difficult for families to access via public transport if they are coming from the south west in any event.
Mr. Mullins mentioned drug-related intimidation inside jails. Somebody who is in prison serving a sentence for careless driving causing death or something like that could be open to intimidation by drug gangs or whatever. It might be a good idea to get someone like that into an open prison as soon as possible. I am aware there are counter-arguments that can be made, for example, whether it means singling out more middle-class prisoners for special treatment. Does the panel have any view on that? We might look at opening up the possibility of getting people to open prisons faster or possibly even allowing a judge handing down a sentence to get the views of the prosecution, the defence and the Probation Service and get all sorts of reports to make that decision when sentence is being passed.
I cannot remember the other point I intended to make but I will come back to it.
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
We have amended our open centre policy so it is possible for low-risk prisoners to go to an open centre at the beginning of the sentence. They do not necessarily have to serve a portion of time in a closed system. What we have found though is that the benefits of open centres are better for longer sentence prisoners, as opposed to people serving short-term sentences. When we were filling our beds in our open centres with short-term sentence prisoners we found many people were absconding. That is an issue of concern from a public safety perspective.
On the pathway to progression, Mr. Graham spoke about the work he did in a closed prison setting to move on to an open prison setting. For life sentence prisoners, we also need to be mindful of the fact that they might spend five, six, seven or eight years in an open centre. There is a management of a prisoner's sentence that allows them to best maximise their use in an open centre.
From my perspective, there is a step after an open centre, namely, independent living facilities. We are looking at that on both our sites at the moment. These facilities allow people to move from an open centre where they are not cooking for themselves or living in their own accommodation. As part of our capital strategy, we are looking at a further step within our open centres that will give us additional capacity but also prepare people better for eventual release where they can cook and shop for themselves, etc.
Ms Ethel Gavin:
That was probably a poke-the-bear question for me. The Prison Service could be better at looking at lower risk offenders with higher sentences. I agree with Ms McCaffrey that it is not really practical to send someone with a sentence of less than 12 months to an open centre. Having said that, there are prisoners serving four years or less. The Deputy gave the example of dangerous driving causing death. The difficulty the Prison Service faces is that such cases are a real media catch. To take the case of a prisoner who has never committed a crime and is highly unlikely to ever commit another one, if it was a high-profile case in Kerry, Roscommon or wherever, then the first thing that arises is the victims, and rightly so. We have to acknowledge the victims but whether people are in an open centre or a prison, they are still in prison and their rights have been taken away. We need to better educate the public. There is a perception that being in an open centre is easier and of course it is slightly easier. However, that person still cannot go home or cook for himself or herself. There are many things that a person cannot do because he or she is still in a contained environment either way. We need to educate the public around the role of open centres and ensure, for example, that we do not keep someone with a dangerous driving causing death conviction in a closed prison for two years because we are afraid of what the media or a politician might say. I say that with no disrespect meant to those present.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Mr. Graham have a view on that?
Mr. Warren Graham:
An open prison is still a prison and prisoners are very aware of that, especially when they are serving a long time. There is a saying in this place that there are people who finish their sentence in open centres and people who serve their sentence in open centres. Either one tends to get along just fine. My perspective on what Ms McCaffrey said is that it is best that I am not here for eight years because the days are much longer.
It is the next step to release and it prepares people somewhat for it. Another step, as Ms McCaffrey highlighted, would be very beneficial to reintegration. I love this place but I do not want to spend eight or ten years here. In the closed prisons the structure and routine help the days and weeks to go that bit quicker. People are constantly engaging in something. Up here on a summer's day you have eight or nine hours to do very little. If you are doing too much of that your days would seem extremely long and monotonous. It suits some people to do three or more years here but certainly not all, particularly those with long-term sentences.
Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I apologise for not being here earlier as I was in the House. I have watched part of the meeting online. I want to touch on what Ms Gavin said. I endorse what she said about prison sentences having nothing to do with what the media think they should be. This is why we have judges sentencing and not the media. The Minister for Justice has made proposals on minimum sentences to be served. I am happy for this to happen as long as it is a judge who makes that decision and not a civil servant or somebody else. This is why I do not agree with what Senator McDowell said earlier about the heat of the moment. The reason we have judges passing sentences is that we can trust them to remove themselves from the passion of the moment.
Everybody has mentioned victims. Victims are an increasingly important part of the system. This is why we have new laws at European and national level to protect victims. To my mind, rehabilitation has to be the primary function of our prison service and our penal service. Other functions with regard to punishment and retribution have their place. Unlike places such as Saudi Arabia, where victims get to decide what the penalty should be, we do not have that approach here for good reason, namely, the emotion involved.
With regard to deterrence, I have my doubts about the deterrent effect of any penalty. Nobody goes out to commit a crime expecting to be caught. People do not contemplate the consequences of the action. The benefit that comes with rehabilitation is that it prevents the creation of future victims. This is the importance of it. Another point on which I disagree with Senator McDowell is Thornton Hall. I do not think building new prison spaces or building more and more prison spaces is the answer. If we build a space it will be filled and that would have a negative effect.
I want to come back to what Ms McCaffrey said about open prisons. There is enormous capacity for us to increase the 6% of the prison population in open prisons that was mentioned by Deputy Daly. The rehabilitative process is important. There is also an institutionalisation that comes, particularly with high-security prisons. In my other role, I have dealt with clients who cannot open doors. When we go to court they have been so long in prison they cannot open the door to the courtroom. This level of institutionalisation is absolutely undesirable and flies in the face of the notion of rehabilitation. Open prisons are a way to deal with this.
I am very conscious of what Mr. Graham said about how tough it has been for prisoners, whether in open or closed prisons, during Covid. I congratulate the Irish Prison Service on what it did to keep prisoners safe during that time. I also recognise just how hard it has been for people who had no physical contact with anyone in their family. They had no face-to-face contact for two years. That is incredibly difficult. Mr. Graham spoke about not being able to hold his mother. That is heartbreaking. There are people the length and breadth of the country in this position.
I want to ask a question about young offenders. For first-time offenders and young people going into the prison system, what is the number one measure the witnesses would recommend we take? Should this group be separated from the general prison population? Should first-time offenders never mix with somebody who has served multiple periods in prison? I have seen young offender institutions in other jurisdictions where they are separated. They are taught skills. They are in specific programmes to help them. What is the number one thing we could do to help prevent young offenders coming back into the system?
Mr. Fergal Black:
I fully endorse what the Senator has said. Our young offenders should be completely separate from other offenders. We have a programme with our psychology service whereby all offenders up to the age of 25 are engaged with intensively. We engage with people up to the age of 25 who do not have post-release supervision and the Probation Service engages with those who do. It is about resetting their compass and trying to get them not to come back into prison.
We have put in place a number of measures. We get transfers from Oberstown. Those who turn 18 while serving a sentence in Oberstown will remain there until they turn 19. This is the appropriate thing to do. Where they have to transfer from Oberstown because they have a longer sentence they go to Wheatfield Prison. We have a unit in Wheatfield Prison. I have met young offenders out there. The idea is to try to work with them. We have trained some of our staff to work with them there. Could we do more? Absolutely. We are conscious that we want to try to stop the possibility of people coming back in a repetitive pattern of returning to prison time and again. It is a group we are particularly concerned about. We have initiatives in place. Our staff is very mindful of these young people and they do all they can. The governors could speak better on this with regard to the relationship. In prison the relationship approach is perhaps the most important approach. The relationship approach with young offenders particularly is essential.
Mr. Warren Graham:
I went into jail at 20 years of age. Fortunately there was a group of older guys who set me on the right track. They told me of their experiences of being in and out of the system for so long. They told me not to do what they had done. There is room for peer support or a peer-to-peer mentoring scheme with young offenders involving people like me who have engaged in rehabilitation and want to continue to engage and help others engage. There is the possibility of this engagement through peer-to-peer support. If they are in a separate unit, as Mr Black said, they could access particular opportunities and access school to get them on the same track as me and others like me.
Barry Ward (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am not sure I understand the point made about why we cannot use open prisons more. Does Ms McCaffrey agree that we should be putting more of the prison population into open prisons and having structured activities within them?
Ms Caron McCaffrey:
We take a risk-based approach in transitioning people to open centres. It has been proved that open centres are more beneficial to people serving longer sentences. People require a period of stabilisation to deal with issues such as addiction and mental health issues before they are in a position to progress to an open centre. Not everybody when he or she comes into custody is suitable to make that journey to an open centre. There is nothing to disbar somebody serving a shorter sentence, or somebody serving a longer sentence, from transitioning if he or she is not deemed to be a risk to public safety and does not have these underlying issues. We do maximise the spaces we have.
Certainly from my perspective, and Mr. Graham picked up on it, open centres are great in that people have more autonomy but they are not looking after themselves. It is not like the reality they will face when they go outside. Their meals are prepared. They go to the dining room. A lot of the decisions for people are made by prison staff. I would like to move towards an independent living model so that people can work and shop in the locality, make their own meals and become more self-sufficient. Points have been made about digital literacy. That is very important, particularly for people serving long sentences. It is something to which we are turning our minds. In this context, it is particularly important.
James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
This has been a very interesting session. Senators Ward and McDowell discussed whether sentences should be set at the outset or in due course and what degree of latitude should be allowed. Mandatory minimum sentences always generate discussion. The point was made that judges can remove themselves from the emotion of the situation. This is true but I am reminded of "The Shawshank Redemption". Morgan Freeman's character, Red, has a spiel every year for the parole board. Eventually, as a broken man he goes in and tells the truth and says he was young, foolish and impetuous. They see him for the first time as he is and tell him to go free because he has learned. The person being sentenced may not be the same person ten, 15 or 20 years later. People can mature. Mr. Graham is an example of this, if I might say so. People do change. They engage with the system.
Mr. Graham is a very successful example of that. I hope that there are many others in the system who benefit from rehabilitation. Today's discussion has been about rehabilitation, how to get people to progress through the system, improve, and emerge stronger and better for doing so. We have had a really useful engagement and I thank everybody for their participation.
I wish to advise the witnesses about what happens next; the members are familiar with the procedure. We will minute this discussion and revisit it in our meetings. We will also take all of the written submissions supplied by the witnesses present and some others who did not come before the committee today but submitted writing and materials in advance. We will consider all of that and produce a report based on today's engagement on rehabilitation in the prison system. We normally include a number of recommendations so they will be largely based on the views of all of the witnesses who have come before us and will reflect the inputs into today's discussion. I thank them for their inputs and submissions. We appreciate the opportunity to engage with them. We have had a useful debate that will make a very interesting report and I hope that will add value that will spur on some of the changes that we have discussed today.
That concludes our formal engagement for this session at least. I thank Mr. Graham who appeared remotely. It was great to have him with us. It was somewhat historic and I am delighted that we were able to do so. I thank him for his contributions. I also thank everybody who attended in person. I must mention, and probably Mr. Mullins is the best man to say it, but slightly stepping away from today's meeting, that the committee may seek to visit one of the prisons in the near future. We will arrange our visit with whomever is best placed to arrange same, and we will be in touch about it, to take place on another day and as a separate exercise.
I ask the members to remain for a moment to deal with housekeeping but the witnesses are free to go. Mr. Graham is free to disengage and I thank him again for his contributions today.