Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 24 February 2022

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Disability Matters

Aligning Education with the UNCRPD (Resumed): Discussion

Photo of Michael MoynihanMichael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies Phelan, Wynne and Cairns and Senator Seery Kearney. The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss aligning education with the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD, which is our current topic. I welcome Mr. Somhairle Brennan, vice president for welfare of the Union of Students in Ireland, USI, and Ms Megan O'Connor, vice president for academic affairs.

I remind members that they are only allowed to participate in the meeting if they are within the precincts of Leinster House. In this regard, if members are joining remotely, I ask them to confirm that they are on the Leinster House campus prior to commencing.

I ask anyone watching to please bear with us if there are any technical issues because some people are joining us remotely. We will try to get any technical issues ironed out as quickly as possible.

Before I commence the meeting, I will outline the position on privilege. The witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I wish to advise witnesses giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts to note that the constitutional protection afforded does not apply.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

On behalf of the committee, I invite Mr. Brennan to give his opening remarks.

Mr. Somhairle Brennan:

I am the vice president for welfare of USI. I thank the Chairperson and members of the joint committee for the opportunity to participate in this round-table discussion on aligning education with the UNCRPD. USI is the national representative body for more than 370,000 students across the island of Ireland. A key element of USI's core mission includes protecting access to education, ensuring equal opportunities for all and working to remove barriers that prevent the pursuit of third level education. There is an undeniable inequality in accessing third level education for students living with disabilities and this must change. The Covid-19 pandemic has highlighted and exacerbated these issues, but they were very much present before the pandemic and will remain in the future, unless significant action is taken to address them.

All people with disabilities have a right to good quality health, education, work and to community and family. However, within the third level sector, many educational, financial and technological barriers exist and prevent students, including potential students, with disabilities from accessing a third level degree. USI has worked, and will continue to work, to remove these barriers and open up third level education fully to students and people with disabilities. However, there are some actions that can only be carried out at Government level and at Oireachtas level to ensure equity. USI urges that at every step of this process and during the implantation of any changes and supports students with disabilities and their representatives are engaged and listened to and that the voices of students with disabilities are at the centre of everything that is done.

Advances in technology have had a significant impact on the lives and well-being of people with disabilities and as much as possible must be done to ensure that students in Ireland have access to the vast range of technological solutions that now exist to support the lives of people with disabilities. As we enter the new post-pandemic world, it is important we do not forget the learnings of Covid-19. It has taught us that all students need more flexibility in their study options and nowhere is this more the case than for students living with disabilities while accessing education. While students with disabilities should be supported to have full physical access to campuses, they should also have the option to connect virtually with their studies in a blended model. I want to emphasise that students with disabilities should have as much access to in-person classes as anyone else, but given the nature of many disabilities, including hidden disabilities, they need the flexibility of blended or online options. Lecture content and study materials should always be available in a format that is accessible to all students. Investment in assistive technology is also necessary in order to enable students with disabilities to thrive in the increasingly technological world in which we live. Lecture content and recordings should have close captions or interpretative options and universal design for learning, UDL, principles should be included in all class preparations.

Along with the above measures, UDL principles should always be utilised to guide institutions in making education accessible for all. Students who need the support of UDL should be given immediate access to it throughout the duration of their studies. They should not be asked to jump through hoops and spend the majority of their college years asking for support to learn and to access lecture materials, but rather have it given to them. Students with disabilities and their representatives and advocates are frustrated by the lack of standards both within institutions and across the country in terms of teaching methods, and this introduces the question of whether guidelines could be created to make access to UDL and other learning aids standard across our institutions. Equally, training should also be provided to all academic and higher education institution, HEI, staff on their legal obligations to students with disabilities, as some students have been made to feel uncomfortable when highlighting their needs and rights in this area in regard to disclosure.

Other crucial factors that are key to ensuring proper access to third level education for students and potential students with disabilities are financial and health-related supports, including mental health and well-being. It is vital that the higher education access route, HEAR, and disability access route to education, DARE, schemes are funded adequately to support students with disabilities throughout their academic and social lives in college. We know from numerous and varied research that people with disabilities are more likely to struggle with financial hardship and access to the required finances that should never be a barrier to a person with disabilities accessing their right to an education. A study by the Association for Higher Education Access & Disability, AHEAD, showed that there has been a 200% increase in the past decade or so in the number of students disclosing disabilities within the higher education sector. There must also be increased supports for mental health resources in institutions for students who need this support because of disability. As USI and others have said repeatedly, there remains a huge demand for publicly funded diagnostic services for students who cannot avail of disability supports without an official diagnosis, but cannot afford to access the current private diagnostic routes.

As I said at the beginning of my statement, it is vital that students with disabilities and their representatives are involved at every step of these conversations. Having a disability while trying to access third level education is an undeniable barrier that makes it more difficult, but it is not and should not, be impossible to access supports. Let us consider the struggle that a person with a with a disability will face on top of the everyday pressures of being a student in third level education. Students who need support should receive it so they can thrive academically and socially. By doing so, we are being true to what we say when we make disability rights a priority.

Photo of Michael MoynihanMichael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Brennan very much. Does Ms O'Connor wish to say anything?

Ms Megan O'Connor:

No thank you, Chairman.

Photo of Pauline TullyPauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome both witnesses and thank them for coming here to present to us. The presentation was excellent. In recent weeks and months we have had different witnesses coming to present to us, and a couple of common themes are emerging, especially in terms of education and employment. The lack of training for personnel is one theme. Do the witnesses believe more staff need training in how to deal with disability and the provision of supports for their students? Is there enough awareness among staff? Are they cognisant that they may have students within their class who require supports?

Mr. Somhairle Brennan:

There is a very good foundation within HEIs and third level institutions that staff are able to build on in terms of training but USI believes further training is required in particular to manage disclosure of disabilities and hidden disabilities. Basic training is required to understand how to use the technology that is provided to support students. Having an understanding of such technology will ultimately benefit the students in the long run. There is also a need for training on the wider societal impacts disabilities can have on students, and taking those issues into account.

Many staff in third level will have a basic understanding of disability and how to support it. However, the societal impact that these pressures will have on students in both a social and academic sense are often much wider than what they see in the classroom. Having the training to manage the potential effects on mental health and well-being on top of the basic struggles of living with that disability is incredibly important.

Photo of Pauline TullyPauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Parents tell us they have to continually fight for supports for their children, beginning when they are small and right through. As Mr. Brennan said, those supports should be available to encourage more people with disabilities to pursue further education. The supports have to be made easily available so that people do not have to fight for something they need. Going to third level is daunting enough for anyone. If someone has an additional need, supports should be available. Another matter that comes up regularly is the cost of disability, as we have just heard. Are HEAR and DARE provided with sufficient finance? Is there sufficient awareness of those programmes? Could more be done to highlight them?

Ms Megan O'Connor:

They are fantastic programmes. They are the reason so many students are currently in the higher education sector. We are very grateful for that but they were implemented a long time ago. These things need to be kept up-to-date, renewed and invested in. We need to ensure that students are part of those conversations when we examine them and have engagement with stakeholders such as Ahead, which has done incredible work in ensuring that students are empowered to disclose their disabilities across the sector. The programmes are fantastic but we need to keep the pressure on to make sure they keep up with how quickly the sector is changing. We are entering this new digital era, as Mr. Brennan mentioned, in which students are having to catch up on their digital capabilities in order that they are appropriately prepared to enter the workforce. Staff have to catch up too. There is a lot left to do.

When students enter college under an access scheme they are often provided with the resources they need upfront. If a student is diagnosed with a disability during his or her studies, that is another barrier because the student then has to try to re-engage with a system that is not typically set up for, say, a third year requiring disability supports. There is a long way to go. The schemes are a great foundation but they are a little outdated for the staff and students across the sector now.

Photo of Pauline TullyPauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We can take up the need to update them with the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science.

The national access target plan is 8%. Is that high enough? According to Ahead figures, it has been higher than that. What could be done to encourage more disabled students to take up positions in third level? I am aware of many students with disabilities, particularly intellectual disabilities, who have gone through mainstream secondary level and sat the leaving certificate and have then gone on to a day service where their needs are not met and they regress rather than progress. We want to see more options for everybody to progress from second level on. This is a broad question. What could be done to encourage more people?

Mr. Somhairle Brennan:

There are a number of avenues. The main thing, as we have all touched on, is that the supports available for these students needs to be constant and available. Rather than reacting to a student inquiring about supports, the supports should be in place before the student even enters the institution. Just the prospect of disclosing identity or disability can have a huge toll on the student. If students know they will not have to fight, and that the fight no longer exists, they will be more likely to engage in a system. If they know that in order to access third level, which is a basic human right, they will realistically have to fight, argue and struggle to get the supports they need, they may not want to engage in that system. We could hardly blame them if that is the case.

It is also an issue of making it clear that the supports are available. When I entered third level education, I was not aware of many of the supports that were available down here. They were not talked about in schools or advertised. I got the information in a very second hand way as I went through college. I had many peers with similar experiences. They were not made aware of supports for dyslexia or the more common disabilities people encounter going into third level until they were in fourth year, at which point it is far too late to benefit.

The public diagnostic services would be of great benefit to these students. Ultimately, many students will be aware that they will require at least a review at least or some form of communication with psychiatry or something like that to get the piece of paper they need to avail of supports but they cannot access it because of the cost. To take the case of ADHD, there are no publicly-funded ADHD services in Ireland. They are all private and entirely inaccessible. It costs upwards of €1,000 just to access a diagnosis. Many institutions will not support you unless you have an official diagnosis so that you cannot access those supports. Having the supports and the basic infrastructure in place before a student even encounters the issues at third level would increase the number of students with disabilities engaging with the institutions.

Photo of Pauline TullyPauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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A regular review of assessments of need is required.

Mr. Somhairle Brennan:

Yes.

Photo of Pauline TullyPauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That needs to happen in the school and college.

Ms Megan O'Connor:

The design of the courses that we offer is incredibly important. If a student has a long-term chronic illness, a part-time course will be much more accessible to him or her than a full-time course that requires the student's presence on campus. We have already touched on the need for the universal design for learning. If we really reach where we need to be on that, some students may not need to access additional disability services supports. Setting up the system to be accessible at the first point of contact is the ultimate goal.

There is a huge drop-off in postgraduate study. We have seen a fantastic increase in students getting into levels 5 to 8, inclusive, but that immediately drops off after level 8. We have nothing that replicates the likes of the HEAR and DARE schemes for further studies in the postgraduate area. That is a major issue that we will need to tackle to ensure that completing a PhD is not an unachievable task for a student with a disability and that students can access them. If we have learned anything in the past two years, it is that we can be more flexible and provide those students with the services they need.

Photo of Pauline TullyPauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The point about part-time learning was raised last week by a student who has various illnesses and experiences chronic pain and could not do a full-time course because there was no option to do it part-time over a longer period.

Photo of Erin McGreehanErin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for being late. There was a lot of traffic but I was listening to the meeting on my way to the House in the car. Ms O'Connor spoke about flexibility and the need for changes in the schemes to ensure that third level institutions, including universities, and further education bodies are welcoming and supportive of all their students. She described the schemes as old and outdated. What would be the best way to change or upgrade them to modern standards? I am sorry if Deputy Tully raised that issue during the part of the meeting I missed. Every week, in this room we learn more.

The importance of staff training was mentioned. That is a huge lacuna. I know lecturers in third level institutions who are not told what to do. They fear they will put a foot wrong and they do not know in what way they should educate. It is bizarre that education institutions are not educating staff and empowering them to be the best teachers they can be. What is the best way to go about empowering everyone on campus to do that?

Ms O'Connor noted that we have seen how flexibility can work during the last two years. What are the greatest lessons from Covid that we can use to improve and make as standard in third level?

What can we make as standard in all public services? I apologise for jumping around many different topics but this is a very important issue. What extra financial aids are there to navigate third level and further education for someone with additional needs. It is outrageous there are no public clinics. We were all poor students at some stage. We would not have been able to afford therapies. It is only due to the paths we take that we do not need extra therapies. I apologise for the rambling. I am trying to get myself settled. I thank the witnesses for their conversation so far and I look forward to hearing their thoughts.

Ms Megan O'Connor:

We urgently need publicly-funded higher education. We need investment in the sector as a whole so we can maintain the programmes or systems we implement. It has been fantastic to see block funding allocated to the student assistance fund but it is not feasible in the long term. We have to have core funding in place. It is very important to note the institutions have full autonomy. Many staff have autonomy as to whether or not they do training. It is about ensuring staff are aware of how accessible this is and making it easy and not an additional workload. It should also be accessible to postgraduate students who are teaching and guest lecturers. It should be the minimum point of standard. The point on empowering staff is very good.

During Covid the biggest lesson we learned was that we can do it. We had been told for such a long time it was too difficult or expensive. We can do it. We have seen how well we can do it. Of course staff were put under incredible pressure at the beginning to transfer but they did a phenomenal job. We saw everyone graduate on time. The ceremonies might have been delayed but everyone completed their degrees more or less in the same way as they would have. It is a testament to the strength of the sector. It further signals we really need to support the sector. It is possible.

On the financial side of things, the disability services themselves need more funding. We need more staff. We need more occupational therapists working in higher education institutions throughout the country. This would mean students can access the therapies in the college. We need to fund student counselling services to ensure students do not have to look for them externally. Year in, year out there are waiting lists of up to six to eight weeks for student counselling services. This puts pressure on students trying to get assistance when they need it most. It also contributes to the burnout of staff. It is a huge issue. We should view the entire sector as a symbiotic community because that is what it is. There is no major separation between teacher and learner. Everyone works together. The work of the national forum for teaching and learning is something that will be critical in the coming years.

Photo of Eileen FlynnEileen Flynn (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. I am substituting for Senator Higgins. I have listened to the witnesses speak about how daunting going to a third level institution can be after being diagnosed early. I came through the education system with dyslexia. I was diagnosed at a very late stage. I remember going into Trinity College and thinking I was stupid and different from everybody else. I wondered how I was going to get support. As Ms O'Connor said, it is not signposted and the supports are not widely available to students. The witnesses spoke about post-leaving certificate colleges and FETAC levels 5 and 6. What makes it easier for students with disabilities to access post-leaving certificate courses rather than university? What are the bigger barriers for university?

Do the witnesses believe lecturers and those in colleges who support people with disabilities are fully qualified to fulfil the role and meet the needs of people with disabilities? We know there is not just one disability. There are various levels of disability and students have various disabilities. What other barriers do young people with disabilities face when accessing services? The committee has heard from students during this term and the previous term. If the Government had a magic wand what do the witnesses believe it should do so that young people with disabilities have equality of opportunity to be able to be successful in universities as well as in post-leaving certificate colleges?

Ms Megan O'Connor:

FETAC levels 5, 6 and 7 are more accessible because we have been speaking about them for a longer time. We gave these courses the attention they needed. We did not really keep the pressure on when we needed it most. It was the easier thing to do. That is simply it. It is not that students have different capabilities or that they are not capable. It is absolutely not. It is just that we had that conversation and we pushed it forward and made it happen. I am very confident we can do that with postgraduate taught and research courses in the near future. We need to do more with the integration of further and higher education. There are very few colleges that offer the opportunity to enter at level 5 and progress to levels 6, 7 and 8. There are only one or two in the Dublin region. Expanding the progression programmes is very important so that students can go at their own pace. It is similar with part-time studies.

Lecturers cannot be expected to know everything. We need to understand they are not miracle workers. They have their own areas of expertise. They need a minimum amount of awareness and training so they can teach but, at the same time, they need to be supported by the disability services in each institution. We need to have technology officers with extensive awareness of the type of technology that is emerging that students may need. This is very important. Everything is changing so quickly. There are staff in our higher education sector who have been teaching on the ground for the past 40 years. Within a month they were expected not only to be able to give online lectures but to have all of their materials accessible in digital format. It was an absolute scramble. I was working at an institutional level last year. It was a scramble but people pulled together and they did it. People need an awful lot more support in how they can do this to ensure we keep up with the technological requirements of our culture.

On the other barriers and a magic wand, the universal design for learning is imperative. I dream of a world where students do not necessarily have to disclose a disability to have minimum requirements. We should have captions on lectures. We should have part-time studies available. All schools and departments should be completely physically accessible. This is not the case at present. For us not to have to make a deal out of a student with a disability or for students with a disability not to have to advocate or have to fight for what they have should be the minimum requirement in our sector. We have a long way to go but it should not take us a long time.

Mr. Somhairle Brennan:

It is interesting the Senator touched on further education, level 5 and post-leaving certificate courses. Further education programmes are smaller and easier to access. There is a higher level of face-to-face and one-on-one engagement with lecturers. In larger universities students are in a room with 300 other people. There is not the same level of intimate support that people get in smaller colleges and further education. This means these courses are much more accessible because people are able to get their needs individually catered for rather than being another fish in a very large pond.

I agree with Ms O'Connor on the magic wand. The universal design for learning is a priority.

Alongside that, there must be a level of destigmatisation of the discussion of disability. One of the biggest challenges we face when engaging with students living with disability in third level is internalised stigma that they stigmatise on themselves. There have to be further supports in that regard before empowering these students to be able to live and to show them that it is okay to not fit what is laid out for them in those criteria that they are being told to fit into. Similar to the principle of UDL, their learning and form of education should be shaped around them rather than them shaping themselves around it, so to speak. Finally, further funding must be put into the sector in regard to the grant schemes but also in regard to the medical card programme. Getting a medical card should be much easier for students with disabilities than it is at present. People should not be put in positions where they have to prove and fight to prove that they are what they say they are. They should be believed and supported off the bat. Having that type of support on a wider level outside of third level education is what will support them. It is the knock-on effect of going outside in rather than inside out, so to speak.

Photo of Michael MoynihanMichael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to raise a few issues. You spoke about the challenges. The HEAR and DARE programmes have been very beneficial, but there are challenges.

I am sorry. Deputy Murnane O'Connor has joined us so I will call her before I ask my questions.

Photo of Jennifer Murnane O'ConnorJennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I was at another meeting so I am arriving late. I apologise and I thank the witnesses for attending today. When a secondary student with a disability first arrives at third level, would the witnesses say the student is supported to reach his or her full potential or could the student be pigeonholed as not being able to take on certain tasks? That was raised with me by somebody recently. Perhaps they could respond to that. If they have already spoken about it, I apologise, but it is a question I was asked recently.

Mr. Somhairle Brennan:

The most important thing to remember when discussing this is that everything is very much on a case-by-case individual basis. The way that students with disabilities are approached and supported currently is on a blanket basis, with set-out ways for support and clear structures in place. However, often those structures will not be appropriate because it is not being treated on a case-by-case basis. It is pigeonholing somebody's needs into an existing structure designed to be much more universally accessible, rather than supporting a student on an individual basis. Therefore, while the support exists, it is equally difficult to access. The number of students who went into third level education and who accessed supports in second level but who did not bother disclosing at third level because they knew the support was not going to support them in their way is very high. It is important to remember that. Ultimately, it needs to be case-by-case rather than blanket support.

Photo of Jennifer Murnane O'ConnorJennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is important. I am a Carlow woman and Carlow Institute of Technology is going to be the South East Technological University from 1 May. It is a huge achievement for Carlow and Kilkenny. What would the witnesses say we could improve for somebody with a disability? We have two great ITs in Carlow, St. Patrick's Carlow College and Carlow IT. The Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Harris, has been very much involved in promoting technological universities. Do the witnesses see where we could make big changes in this new role for us, particularly in my area? Is there anything they think I could bring to the Minister's attention or anything I could address? They could refer certain things to me.

Ms Megan O'Connor:

A major thing with the formation of the new technological universities, which is fantastic, is that there is a huge number of satellite campuses. Something that students struggle with every year is the provision of accommodation. For students with disabilities, getting appropriate accommodation is even more difficult. We touched on it previously. The financial implications of studying with a disability are significant, and there is significant research to support that. First and foremost, we need to see those capital grants allocated to higher education institutions so they can build purpose-built student accommodation that is accessible for students, and so students do not have to travel far to access their education. That is a huge issue.

Also, we spoke a lot about the universal design for learning and ensuring that it is embedded in policies as the institutions are going through this new transitional phase. There is also engaging with stakeholders such as AHEAD and ourselves. We are more than happy to participate in those conversations. We also must include students on the ground. The students in each institution know that institution best and know what they need. We must continue to empower them to participate in those conversations. The availability of services across satellite campuses will be very important in the new TUs. There are some TUs with up to eight or nine campuses, which is significant. For senior management it is going to be a big job to ensure that there is equitable provision of services available for students.

Photo of Jennifer Murnane O'ConnorJennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We know that technological universities are going to be a game changer. However, with that we have to move with the times and make sure that things are accessible. Communication with all services will be very important here. We have a duty of care to make sure there is proper accommodation and proper accessibility. There is also the online aspect. Everything has gone digital at this stage so we must make sure there is proper communication and information through all the different services. I thank the witnesses again, and well done.

Photo of Michael MoynihanMichael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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You touched briefly on occupational therapy being available to students. One of the issues we encounter constantly here, ranging from very young children through to all people with disabilities, is the unavailability of occupational therapy. How much occupational therapy is available at college level? The other question we have to be mindful of as well is: are we training enough occupational therapists for the needs in society?

Ms Megan O'Connor:

The quick answer, unfortunately, is "No". There is a long list of reasons for that. The availability of occupational therapists is not where it needs to be in higher education institutions. Also, even if the funding is allocated, there is a struggle to recruit these therapists. We see a number of colleges around the country offering a course like that with a maximum student number of about 50. However, we need to be cognisant of the fact that where we are trying to increase the student numbers we must ensure there are provisions to support them through their studies. If we are going to increase the number of healthcare students, we need to work very closely with the Department of Health to ensure that they have appropriate placements available to them so they can meet the minimum requirements set by CORU, which is the professional regulatory body.

I have completed a nursing degree and we are seeing students flee the country after graduation for better opportunities because the payment in the sector is not what they believe is sufficient for the skills set they have and for the four years they spent in college studying. They are being offered much better elsewhere. We need to work closely with the Department of Health to ensure that these students and new graduates are being supported and valued, and that they are being given equitable opportunities when entering the workforce. It is a major problem, and there are many stakeholders involved in that. We are definitely going to see the knock-on implications of that being an unappealing or insufficient role to play in the State.

Mr. Somhairle Brennan:

Similar to Ms O'Connor, I am a psychology graduate and many of my peers have also upped and left. Chairman, you referred to the availability of occupational therapists in third level institutions. It is important to note when we talk about this that it is not an even playing field. Some institutions will have greater supports than others. I studied in the Institute of Art, Design and Technology, IADT, which is a very small college. It has resources to support students but it in no way has the same availability that UCC or Trinity College would have. When we discuss what is available in colleges it is important to remember that it is not equitable.

It is not a even playing field. Realistically, a student attending a service in a larger university or a technological university, TU, will have better access to these kinds of services than they would in a smaller institution. It comes back to the point I made previously that it cannot be a blanket approach. It needs to be tailored per institution, rather than just providing everyone with the same thing because it just will not land with the students in the same way.

Photo of Michael MoynihanMichael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the therapies - occupational, speech and language and psychological - this is something we might come back to at a committee level in order to explore the effect the shortages are having on the therapies being available. Mr. Brennan so rightly referred to the flight of therapists when they qualify and that is something that needs to be targeted if we are serious about having a more equitable society and having the therapies available.

On behalf of the committee, I sincerely thank our witnesses for their honesty and for bringing to us the challenges facing the USI as we feed into the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disability, UNCRPD, and aligning education.

Again, I sincerely thank our witnesses for coming in and for their information. If there is any information, however small, they should please forward it to our committee because we are reaching out to try to get as much information as possible from all the stakeholders. If there is anything they think we should be updated on, they should please feel free to feed it into our team or any of the members.

Photo of Erin McGreehanErin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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I have one question, and I am not sure if it was touched on earlier. In regard to inclusive housing, and I know we should not mention the housing war because it is really tough, how open are universities to properly manning and putting resources into inclusive housing? This is not just about putting all people with disabilities into one suitable house, which is sometimes what I fear, saying that it is sorted and then forgetting about it. How open are universities to building inclusive accommodation? If someone has a disability, it does not mean they should be put “over there”. They are part of our community; they are our brothers, sisters and friends. Is that a big downfall of our university campuses? I was in Glenomena in UCD and in Corrib Village and Rahoon in Galway and I cannot recall any of the accommodation I lived in that would be accessible to someone with disabilities.

Ms Megan O'Connor:

Unfortunately, it is-----

Photo of Erin McGreehanErin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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It is bad.

Ms Megan O'Connor:

-----a huge barrier. I am very privileged to say that all of the purpose-built student accommodation I have lived in was accessible and there was provision for students with disabilities that was very much part of it. For example, there would be one physically accessible bathroom for a student with a disability in a larger apartment with more regular rooms.

It is a huge issue, however. As we saw with the National Housing Strategy for People with a Disability 2011-2016, there was only a very brief mention of students with disabilities in that strategy. It is something we can look for when we are asking for a new strategy for student housing to ensure that is implemented within it.

The additional costs incurred by students who are looking for appropriate forms of accommodation rules out almost all of what is actually available. With the housing crisis as it is at the moment, it is phenomenally difficult to find somewhere. On top of the crisis, if one has accessibility needs, such as needing ergonomic furniture, wheelchair access or anything like that, or if one needs somewhere quiet for rest breaks, somewhere that is not too far from one’s place of study or where one needs to be during the day, those accessibility needs make it harder to find a place. It is a huge issue.

I have never come up against resistance within an institution to doing something such as this. They have to do this. It has to be a priority because institutions will not be able to bring in or retain students if it does not provide accommodation. We will see that with the international market, where international students are often a huge source of income for the higher education sector across the country. That is not necessarily something we are in favour of, but it is the fact of the matter on the ground. They will not be able to continue to recruit students unless that accommodation provision is there and very quickly improved.

Photo of Erin McGreehanErin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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There is a cost barrier.

Mr. Somhairle Brennan:

I know the Senator’s question was primarily directed at larger universities and those which have that purpose-built student accommodation, but it is very important to remember as well that many higher education institutions do not have purpose-built student accommodation and are entirely inaccessible. The reality is that I lived in someone’s shed, in their back garden, so I could complete fourth year. There was no student accommodation, and I know many people have had similar experiences. I am lucky that I am able-bodied and able to do that. However, many of my peers were not in a position to do that and people could not access their education simply because they had nowhere to live. Unfortunately, private purpose-built student accommodation prices out people who rely on grants and so on to live. The Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, grant, HEAR, DARE and all of those will not cover the cost of living in appropriate student accommodation. One is left literally taking what one can get. It is not a case of what is appropriate for those students; it is a case of what is available. That is where we see students getting taken advantage of left, right and centre.

There is a push at the moment with the Minister, Deputy McEntee, around landlords trying to introduce the likes of sex-for-rent schemes and stuff like that. It is atrocious and I look forward to seeing legislation on that. I am trying to engage in that regard at the moment. The accommodation crisis is something I have seen since I first started college and it is only getting worse. We forget that it will ultimately impact students with disabilities much more. It is already detrimental for a neurotypical student or someone who does not have a physical disability or something. One can only imagine how difficult it is for a student with further requirements and needs.

Ms Megan O'Connor:

The provision of accommodation so important and it will take us a long time to resolve this. There are no ifs or buts about it. However, something that we can do in the interim is invest in public transportation routes. They are not where they need to be. We saw in the budget that there is 50% off for students between a certain ages, but not all students fall within that age bracket. We have mature students and students with disabilities accessing education at a later stage and it completely excludes them. It is very important to ensure we invest in and expand our public transport routes. We have had more and more students commuting to college in recent years because of the accommodation crisis and that is something students with disabilities are disproportionately impacted by, again because of the financial burden.

Photo of Michael MoynihanMichael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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Again I sincerely thank our witnesses. As I said, they should please keep in touch with us if there is anything we should be aware of. I thank the members for their participation and sincerely thank the team behind us for keeping the show on the road as well.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.38 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 3 March 2022.