Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Wednesday, 26 January 2022

Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport And Media

RTÉ's Public Service Statement, Irish Language Services and RTÉ Board Appointments Process: Discussion

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The meeting today has been convened to discuss RTÉ's public service statement, Irish language services and correspondence of 16 May 2021 to the Minister, Deputy Martin, regarding concerns relating to the RTÉ Board appointments process.

I warmly welcome our guests who are joining us remotely via Microsoft Teams in committee room 1. I welcome Ms Moya Doherty, chairman of the RTÉ board and Ms Dee Forbes, general secretary of RTÉ. I am sorry Ms Forbes had to join us remotely and hopefully this will be the last time we will be meeting remotely. Hopefully, in future we will be able to meet in person. I thank our guests for being with us. As Ms Doherty has not been able to join the call, would Ms Forbes like to make the opening statement?

Ms Dee Forbes:

We will try to see where she is. I am happy to go ahead and read the statement on behalf of the chair.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I will give Ms Forbes another few minutes, as I have to deal with a housekeeping matter before we proceed.

Ms Dee Forbes:

Okay. Thank you.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The format of the meeting is such that I will invite Ms Forbes or Ms Doherty, whoever is able to be with us at the time, to deliver the opening statement, which is limited to five minutes, and which will be followed by questions from members of the committee. As the witnesses are probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statement on its website following our meeting today.

Before I invite one of the witnesses to deliver the opening statement, I wish to explain some limitations with respect to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses regarding references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. However, witnesses today are giving evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts and, as such, may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness who is physically present does. Witnesses may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter.

Witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name, or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if a witness's statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identifiable person or entity, he or she will be directed to discontinue the remarks.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House campus to participate in our public meeting today.

I ask members and witnesses to please identify themselves when contributing. This is for the benefit of the Debates Office staff in preparing the Official Report. I also ask everyone to mute their microphones when not contributing to avoid background noise and feedback. When witnesses and members wish to contribute I ask that they use the raise hand facility. I remind those joining today's meeting to switch off their mobile phones or put them into silent mode.

With the housekeeping out of the way, I ask whether Ms Doherty has been able to join the call. As she has not, I ask Ms Forbes if she would like to take the opening statement.

Ms Dee Forbes:

In the interests of time, I am happy to go ahead, bearing in mind that these are the words of the RTÉ chair.

This is my last year as chair of the RTÉ board and perhaps prompted by this, I recently visited the RTÉ 60 Years of Television exhibition at the National Photographic Archive.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise but I have been advised to suspend the meeting to allow Ms Doherty to join the call. I ask colleagues to bear with me while we get this technical problem sorted out.

Sitting suspended at 1.41 p.m. and resumed at 1.44 p.m.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Ms Doherty and invite her to make her presentation.

Ms Moya Doherty:

Thank you. This is my last year as chair of the RTÉ board and perhaps prompted by this, I recently visited the RTÉ 60 Years of Television exhibition at the National Photographic Archive. There were many memories, many moments captured on stills camera and video. One particularly poignant moment, from 1974, was of children picketing the gates of RTÉ in protest at the decision to end the “Wanderly Wagon” programme. It was a glimpse of a more innocent time but it highlighted for me the paradox RTÉ has to deal with. The only way it can make savings is to cut services or programmes but doing so brings upon it the wrath of the audience it is seeking to serve. Happily, in 1974 the protesting children won the day and “Wanderly Wagon” continued for many a year.

It may have been a very different world in 1974 but even from when I was appointed to chair the RTÉ board almost eight years ago, the world has become a dramatically different place, not only for RTÉ as an organisation, but for the cultural identity of the nation. It is a genuinely existential moment for the provision of public service broadcasting in Ireland. This is the result of a critical confluence of factors, including, but not limited to, the emergence of the multiple content providers which we all know, for example, Apple, Sky and Amazon Prime; the relentless advance of social media into the personal lives of audiences across multiple levels and functions; the shift in advertising to highly targeted, data-driven platforms; the move from communal viewing and listening into niche narrow-casting to individuals and community interest groups; the rapid advance of multiple new technologies in the media space, which Douglas Rushkoff refers to as “the acceleration of the acceleration”; and the growth of political populism allied to a Wild West online environment in the provision of reliable information and analysis.

These profound shifts outline both the difficulties created for the national broadcaster and the increased importance of public service media at a time of unprecedented disruption. We need a thorough national public debate on all of these issues, a debate that is rooted in the public interest and does not shy away from uncomfortable truths, including the matter of public funding for the State broadcaster and our broken licence fee system.

This is a subject that the members’ predecessors on this committee made very clear recommendations on in 2017. The present model is resulting in huge losses, not only to RTÉ but to the independent sector. I have calculated these amount to be approximately €500 million in the past decade and nowhere has that been felt more than in the independent sector. I look forward to the publication of the report of The Future of Media Commission and, I hope, a clear plan for how the Government intends to implement its recommendations. I very much hope this committee will play its part in helping secure a sustainable future for a high quality and diverse media in Ireland.

I have spent much of my working life in and around public service broadcasting in the most all-embracing sense of that term. As chair of RTÉ, I have always believed that a fully funded, independent public service media, operating as the hub of a vibrant creative industries network, is fundamental to democracy. I am particularly mindful of RTÉ’s role in the provision of high-quality news and current affairs, something that has been particularly evident in recent times. I am proud to note the performance of RTÉ, the RTÉ executive and RTÉ staff during that intense pandemic period.

However, we must remain alive to the dangers faced by public service broadcasting, PSB. Just last month, Sir David Puttnam, once the digital champion for Ireland, resigned from the House of Lords citing this very issue as one of the reasons he had to make that decision. He argued that the government had ignored his report into digital technologies, public service media and democracy. He warned that political power was being “ceded to a few unelected and unaccountable digital corporations” and that a pandemic of misinformation and disinformation had taken hold. He said: “If allowed to flourish, these counterfeit truths will result in the collapse of public trust, and without trust democracy as we know it will simply decline into irrelevance.” Indeed, this real and present threat was the very reason I called for a future media commission to be established and I am grateful the Government did so.

This is not a problem particular to RTÉ. Many European public service models have different levels of funding and not all of them are provided with the funding that is needed to sustain the necessary level of service.

During my term as chair, I have worked with two directors general and constantly changing board personnel under four different Ministers. During this period, both RTÉ and the board have had to realign, as have many other public bodies, to ensure the highest standards of corporate governance.

The focus on governance must be at the heart of the board's work and is critical in ensuring public and stakeholder confidence. In the open forum of a board, occasions can arise where there is concern regarding the appropriateness of decisions that must be made. On such occasions, a consensus has to emerge. The emergence of this consensus can take time and careful negotiation, and I have consistently followed this protocol as chair. The specific case the committee has asked about was no different in this regard. Ultimately, however, each individual has to accept responsibility for the decisions he or she makes while the negotiated consensus is evolving.

Suffice it to say that it is clear that RTÉ takes its Irish language remit extremely seriously. However, issues such as the Irish language and the RTÉ strategy statement can no longer be addressed in isolation from the more nuanced understanding of the interconnected nature of this industry. RTÉ, at its best, can be the glue that binds the cultural well-being of the nation together. It can be the prism through which we construct the idea of ourselves, and it is often the voice of Ireland for the global diaspora.

The creative industries that RTÉ is at the centre of are at the forefront of a workplace upheaval, a revolution driven by a new understanding that if the first industrial revolution was driven by brawn and physical work and the second and third by brain and intellect, the fourth, in which we find ourselves, will be driven by an economy of the heart. This is not some fanciful romantic notion but a conviction that the work we do should be grounded in what we believe in, bring fulfilment and make a sustained contribution to the common good. All of us share the aspiration that RTÉ should be at the heart of this new era by embracing a public service model that can become the template for the rest of Europe.

After eight years as chair of RTÉ and public service media, my love and commitment for RTÉ are matched only by my concern for its future. Time is a commodity we no longer have. I thank the members very much for listening.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Doherty for her very comprehensive and impassioned statement. I will now turn to my colleagues, who have all been furnished with a speaking rota. Deputy Griffin is not present but we can come back to him if he gets an opportunity to join us. I call Deputy Munster. She has ten minutes for questions and answers.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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RTÉ has a statuary duty as regards current affairs programming in Irish. I understand it provides "7 Lá" for TG4. What current affairs programmes in Irish are actually on RTÉ?

Ms Dee Forbes:

I am happy to take that. I thank the Deputy for her question. She is right in the sense that we have a number of Irish language obligations. We take them very seriously, as Ms Doherty pointed out. In 2017, we were found to be in breach of some of our obligations and put in place a renewed plan to provide more content in the Irish language for the Comisinéir Teanga. It is a three-year report. It comes to its end in March of this year. We are now preparing the next report, in which we want to address current affairs. At this moment, we provide "7 Lá" for TG4. The other content we provide is more a combination of factual and entertainment content. We are addressing the current affairs aspect of that in our next three-year plan, which is coming in March.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Forbes for that. Is the answer to my question that RTÉ currently does not provide current affairs programmes in Irish on RTÉ?

Ms Dee Forbes:

We show "7 Lá" on RTÉ after TG4. We had envisaged that this would fulfil our commitment but apparently it did not. That is why we are considering the matter now with the new plan in mind.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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For clarity, RTÉ does not have any current affairs programmes in Irish on RTÉ.

Ms Dee Forbes:

We show "7 Lá" on RTÉ.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Apart from that. That is for TG4, is it not?

Ms Dee Forbes:

Correct.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As it stands, is RTÉ still in breach of the legislation?

Ms Dee Forbes:

We have increased our hours substantially. We committed to delivering 530 hours in 2020 and we delivered more than 700. In 2021, we committed to delivering 570 hours and delivered more than 900. The plan in place from March will address further content as we go forward.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Could I have a direct answer to a direct question, please? Is RTÉ still in breach of the legislation?

Ms Dee Forbes:

In terms of current affairs, yes.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question following on from the appearance of RTÉ representatives at a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts last week, where they refused to commit to ensuring workers found to be bogusly self-employed would be paid entitlements. We went through maternity pay, sick pay and holiday pay. The Irish Examinerreported that it had been made aware of specific examples of such cases. If the Department of Social Protection dictates that RTÉ must pay it a settlement for not paying employer PRSI it is obliged to pay, will RTÉ ensure the employees or former employees are paid what they are entitled to?

Ms Dee Forbes:

As I said last week, I refute the notion that we engaged in bogus employment practices. RTÉ has had many different relationships with employees and contractors over the years. A confluence of factors, including changing laws, definitely caused a problem. We are now in this process to really look at the legacy issues involved. What I said last week was that we are very committed to working to find the right solution to this issue. It is very complex. We have the scope section of the Department of Social Protection and Revenue involved. We have committed to our trade union group that we will collectively come to an agreement and work through the industrial relations process we have in place at RTÉ. We have a good track record in getting things done through that process, but we are not in a position at this point to say exactly what will be involved in that. We need a little more time to work through the complexities of this to come to the ideal solution.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Forbes for that. We know RTÉ has already paid the Revenue Commissioners €1.2 million. We know that the Department of Social Protection is now coming after RTÉ and that the net has been widened to include 500 workers. Where the Department of Social Protection tells RTÉ to settle for not paying the workers or the employer PRSI, would Ms Forbes not think it morally right to ensure the employees or former employees are paid what they are entitled to? I am sure she could answer that on moral grounds.

Ms Dee Forbes:

As I said, this is a highly complex process. There is a lot at play. We want this to be a fair process. That is the ultimate aim. There are many elements to it. Certainly, we will be endeavouring to work with the trade union group to come to a solution that is acceptable to everybody involved.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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From a moral perspective, Ms Forbes cannot actually say the workers should be paid what they were deprived of. My fear is that, in two, three or four years, when RTÉ will have made what could be multimillion euro settlements with the Department of Social Protection and the Revenue Commissioners or taxpayer as a result of its failings, it will not pay the workers what they are entitled to after having engaged with them. I do not have any confidence given that Ms Forbes cannot even say from a moral perspective that the workers should be paid. My fear is that, in ten years, the Committee of Public Accounts will be asking about large legal settlements and the then director general will tell the members not to worry because the settlements relate only to legacy issues, which is what we were told last week.

Ms Dee Forbes:

It is important to stress, as I mentioned at the committee last week, that, on a go-forward basis, we are committed to this not happening again. We amended our policies on an employment-first basis and that is the way we are proceeding. Legacy is what we are dealing with. We have given assurances to our trade union group that we will come together and collectively agree a solution. It is hugely complex. The Deputy has my commitment that we want to get to a resolution but it will take some time.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Have all RTÉ news journalists taken part in a workshop looking at climate science and the reporting of it?

Ms Dee Forbes:

The workshop was made available. I am not sure if everybody took part but a very large majority did.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In July last, RTÉ committed to creating a team working across news and current affairs dedicated to reporting on the climate crisis. Has that team been created and how many staff members are in it?

Ms Dee Forbes:

With respect, this was not on the agenda but I will answer as best I can. As an organisation, we are hugely committed-----

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I remind Deputy Munster to be fair. The three matters laid out were the public service statement, the Irish language services and the correspondence of 26 May. The Deputy only has two minutes remaining and I am sure she has more questions on that theme. I ask her to stick with the theme.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, RTÉ committed last July to creating a team and my question concerns whether that team has been set up.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy may proceed. I am just reminding her of the position.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I know, but it is not as if I am looking for details of the Revenue settlement. I am asking whether that team was set up and how many staff members are on it?

Ms Dee Forbes:

I do not know how many members are on it but we have a team.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will Ms Forbes furnish us with the details of that team and how many members are on it? Does anybody else know? I am sure across the board someone would be able to tell us.

Ms Dee Forbes:

I will have to inquire into it. None of us would be able to answer that.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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That line of questioning is not on the invitation.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is hardly top secret. One would imagine the witnesses would have an answer to that, given how important reporting of climate change is. Silly me for thinking they might be upfront and able to give us that information.

Last week, when I asked about the 11 cases, of the total of 28 cases, in which scope decided against RTÉ the information was not to hand. Does Ms Forbes have the updated figures on the costs associated with those cases?

Ms Dee Forbes:

I do not. Again, it was not on the agenda.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We asked last week. Will Ms Forbes furnish us with those details?

Ms Dee Forbes:

Absolutely.

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Doherty and Ms Forbes for their presentations. It is important to acknowledge that, during the Covid period, the news team in RTÉ provided great public sector broadcasting in difficult circumstances. We are consuming much more content at home. I pay tribute to the work being done in the drama sector, which is provided by the independent production companies and RTÉ. It is also important to acknowledge the online school services during that period.

Curiously enough, during the lockdown period, I watched episodes of "Wanderly Wagon", which is on YouTube, with my nephews. It was groundbreaking television and, while I do not call for its return, it is important that we tell those Irish stories for children. Children's television is important to encourage creativity.

The absence of the report of The Future of Media Commission before this discussion is a problem. I hope the witnesses will agree to return to the committee to engage on the report once it has been published. I will speculate to a certain extent. One issue being considered concerns the future funding of RTÉ. In Australia and in other European countries, public sector broadcasting is funded directly from the Exchequer and the licence fee has been abolished. What is the witnesses' view on that? Do they believe RTÉ should move to a publisher-broadcaster model?

Ms Moya Doherty:

It is nice to see the Senator. I am not in favour of a publisher-broadcaster model for RTÉ. We need to enhance the output of RTÉ, as well as with the independent sector. Publisher-broadcasters in the past may not have held on to their audience as RTÉ would and would want to do. I would look more closely at the proposal this joint committee's predecessors made in 2017 on the model for collection of the licence fee. It would provide certainty for RTÉ and allow it to plan ahead.

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Doherty rightly referenced the Puttnam report with regard to digital policy. We have moved into the digital space but a criticism here has concerned RTÉ digital policy, its expenditure on digital and the frustrations most people felt when trying to use the RTÉ Player. Some of those are being addressed. The RTÉ Player is competing against Netflix, Disney+ and Amazon. What improvements are being made to the player? Can users get a better service?

Ms Moya Doherty:

I will take this question from a slightly different perspective. This is important because RTÉ has in the past been accused of always going with the begging bowl. I was trying to think of a different analogy. I thought that if you give people a fish, they will be fed for a day but if you give them a fishing rod, they will be able to fend for themselves. RTÉ has faced a decade of brutal cuts and the only way any organisation can grow and improve is through investment, not continual cuts. It is difficult for me, although Ms Forbes may have a different view, to talk about specific key issues where RTÉ is not delivering, for example, the RTÉ player, not achieving the Irish language target twice and being unable to spend the statutory money provided for independent productions in one year but making it up in the next year. Those are all about resources and certainty of funding.

Ms Dee Forbes:

We have seen incredible growth in the RTÉ Player. Streams in 2020 were up 35% on the previous year. That was driven by the pandemic and people having a voracious appetite for every sort of content. The player has grown significantly in the last two years in terms of usage and people viewing it.

The Senator mentioned Disney, Amazon, etc. There are a couple of fundamental differences between what they provide and what we provide. First, the Senator knows the scale and resources of those multinational giants. The other big difference is what they do in terms of on-demand viewing versus live. RTÉ, being a national broadcaster, has a large amount of live output. This can also be watched through the player. We have spent a lot of time and resources improving the delivery performance of our live content and that held up incredibly well through Euro 2020 when we - I will use my head of technology expression - almost broke the Internet with huge concurrent streams watching that event. There is room for improvement and we are not complacent. However, as Ms Doherty said, we have to match the moneys we have with what we can do. Further investment is required and, pending an outcome on funding, it is top of our agenda.

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I will ask a specific question about funding. We are now considering the introduction of a content levy on some of the streaming services. RTÉ is happy with that proposal. What model would Ms Forbes favour?

Ms Dee Forbes:

We welcome the publication of the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill. While there are amendments to propose and detailed work to do, the point about the levy is important. There are companies coming into this jurisdiction, if you like, and not creating content for this jurisdiction. Other countries, as the Senator knows, have brought in this levy. We have done work as a combined industry, with Screen Ireland, TG4 and Screen Producers Ireland, to say we need a levy like this because it would create some much-needed funding for Irish programming. We support that.

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Tá ceist eile agam. Cén todhchaí a chíonn RTÉ do chraoltóireacht agus do léiriúcháin Ghaeilge ar raidió ar an teilifís agus ar líne. What future do our guests see for content creation and broadcasting through the Irish language on radio, television and in the digital space online? It is telling that story.

Ms Dee Forbes:

It is very important to us. As I mentioned earlier, we are committed to doing what we can and what we need to do in the Irish language. We have recently become involved in podcasting in the Irish language. We have new programming on Raidió na Gaeltachta, for example. We are trying a new show with Liam Ó Maonlaí. There is a lot of great innovation happening around content and the Irish language. As Ms Doherty mentioned, it must be looked at in the round. We must consider what we can do versus what we have to spend. We are committed to doing as much as we can. 2FM also has a chart show as Gaeilge. We are doing an awful lot of interesting and innovative things. We could do an awful lot more if the funding was there.

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I know that as part of the model, one of the issues RTÉ has been addressing relates to staff reduction. Ms Forbes might be able to update us on that, if she can. I am conscious of another issue that may fall beyond the remit of this meeting. Is there a compulsory retirement age within RTÉ? That emerged as an issue a few years ago.

Ms Dee Forbes:

Like many companies in the country, our contractual retirement age is 65. That has been the case for many years. In light of changes in legislation, we are looking at that. The vast majority of people want to retire at that age and, of course, we facilitate that. As I said, there is work to do on the issue. We watch the relevant legislation carefully in that regard.

As regards staff numbers, the Senator will see in some of the briefing documents we sent the committee that we have been on a constant process of staff reduction over many years. In fact, staff numbers are now 21% lower than they were in 2008.

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of the time limits. I would like an assurance that there is no compulsory retirement age in RTÉ.

Ms Dee Forbes:

The contractual retirement age is 65.

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I will move on to some of the slightly more controversial issues on which the committee has written to and engaged with RTÉ. There is the question of the party that took place. That issue was raised at this committee. I want assurances that there was learning from that. I will also make a comment arising from a matter Ms Doherty raised relating to governance. We also take governance very seriously. The principle to which we hold, and without getting into a debate on the matter, is that this committee and the Minister recommend the names of members of the RTÉ authority. We were slightly concerned about the events that happened in that regard. The principle must be accepted that it is these Houses that make the decision on who sits on the RTÉ authority, rather than the authority itself.

Ms Moya Doherty:

May I respond to that question? Of course there is huge regret over the way the recent appointments emerged and turned out. However, when new appointees come on to the board, as four did recently, we welcome them graciously. We had already signalled a concern around corporate governance, principles, ethics and morals and how we would manage them. We set up and put in place a comprehensive system to allow us to welcome all four board members and ensure we could run the board as the committee and audience would wish. All four members were warmly greeted and given time to express what they wanted to bring to the board. It was interesting and exciting. Unfortunately, there were issues around Covid-19 on the same day. We have a system in place whereby the RTÉ executive brings forward a contract for either capital spend or content spend that is over a certain amount. This is good financial control and a good system for the board. We never get to see any of the independent stuff.

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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My issue is around the principle. There was correspondence that I do not necessarily want to go into. The concern on this committee was that our competence was almost being questioned around-----

Ms Moya Doherty:

I am sorry if that is what has come across. It is not the case at all. Let me just explain one point that I think is very important. I tried to navigate and negotiate this. The person concerned recused himself. We had a discussion. Such was the commercial nature of the individual's relationship with RTÉ and such was the vast sum of funding the board was being asked to give to another board member that my colleagues on the board could not reach a consensus. I asked for some time on the issue and that was agreed to. I got some time but, unfortunately, that time was then taken away from me because the individual chose to resign even though I asked him not to. It is important for that background to be understood. This was at no point a challenge to any system that the committee has in place. We regard it highly. However, I could not get consensus at board level.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I will stop Ms Doherty there because we have gone way over time. Has the Senator concluded his questions?

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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My only other question related to the RTÉ party. Ms Forbes may wish to answer that. I asked were there learnings and actions taken on foot of that.

Ms Dee Forbes:

It is important to state first that it was not a party.

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Forbes is beginning to sound like Boris Johnson.

Ms Dee Forbes:

It was a farewell to a much-loved colleague. Having said that, I apologised at the time it happened. We reflected on what happened and carried out an internal health and safety review. It is fair to say the incident was not at all reflective of how we conducted ourselves during the pandemic. I agree that it should not have happened but we learned from it and moved on. That is important. We also co-operated fully with the Garda investigation at the time.

Photo of Brendan GriffinBrendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Doherty and Ms Forbes for joining us. I want to get the good news out of the way. It is not possible in broadcasting to please all the people all the time. Most of the time, the feedback I hear from members of the public about the role RTÉ plays is generally positive. There is some great content out there. There is not enough Irish content but the job that is done by everyone at the national broadcaster at every level is generally considered to be positive.

That said, there are areas that need to be improved. RTÉ needs to read the room about the licence fee at the moment. This is not a time to be going to people and looking for extra money. In a way, RTÉ needs to earn that money and prove that a fee increase would be worthy and the right thing to do.

I am sorry to keep going back to this issue but last year, we were in contact with RTÉ about the new year celebrations in 2020 going into 2021. In 2021 going into 2022, we had an awful debacle with the new year television celebration. What has RTÉ got against New Year's Eve? Last year, it got the tone wrong and this year it managed to get the time wrong. It has one job on New Year's Eve, which is the ten-second countdown. I would say that CNN was welcoming in the new year before RTÉ this year, it was so far behind. Simple things like that resonate with people if they are not done right. Then, a few weeks later, RTÉ comes along seeking an increase in the licence fee. The two do not wash.

Will RTÉ look at the new year celebrations next year and try to get them right, once and for all? What we have seen in the past couple of years was insulting to people. There was a difficult Christmas and new year period for many people who were at home. There was huge viewership. One would have thought that more effort would go into getting the programming right. I will not go any further into what we got. We know what it was and it was not good enough.

Regarding the Irish language, a reference was made to more money. Why are Irish language programmes always the additional extra if there is more money? Why do we not seem to be getting Irish language programmes when other areas are not sacrificed? That is what I am picking up from the conversation here and from earlier comments. Will the witnesses elaborate on that?

Regarding children's programmes, I grew up in an era which, in hindsight, may have been a golden era of Irish content. We have seen a significant fall-off in that in recent years. Culturally, that is important. The one great hope that we had in recent times was the return of "The Den". For some reason, that programme did not come back in 2021, although we understood that it would. Why did it not come back in 2021? In 2020, it was one of the most positive developments across the board in RTÉ, yet autumn 2021 came and "The Den" did not return. Will the witnesses explain that? I have not been able to find out definitively what happened there. It was a huge mistake. It was one of the most positive developments we have seen in children's television programming. It is not just for children, but also for the big kids among us who really enjoy it too.

Ms Dee Forbes:

I thank the Deputy for his questions. I will try to take them in the order that he asked them. I must make clear that we are not asking for a licence fee increase. We are asking for the licence fee system that underpins public service broadcasting to be reformed. Some €65 million is going uncollected each year. That is through a combination of evasion, with people simply not paying a fee, and a growing tranche of people, currently 15%, claiming not to have a television. Through a loophole in the Broadcasting Act, if people watch RTÉ on their computers at home, they do not have to pay for a licence. We are saying that much money is being lost in the system. We are not asking for more. We are asking for the system underpinning this to be reformed. There is ample money to meet the needs and address some of the areas the Deputy spoke about.

Irish language content is just one of many areas that have been undernourished in the last years. We have had to make sacrifices in every single area. Ten years ago, we were spending €80 million in the independent sector and we are now spending €40 million. Every single genre of activity, whether drama, culture or children's programming, has had programming reduced because we are operating with €100 million less in the last ten years. That is the reality. We cannot continue to do more with less money. We are trying to do the best that we can with the resources that we have.

The Deputy's point on children is well made. Like the Deputy, I grew up in that golden age of television. I had one channel for most of my life and then a second one came along. Kids today have an explosion of content. We compete every day with Disney, Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network, which are global giants. Having said that, we have a strong, uniquely Irish kids' offering. We have a lot of children's content in the Irish language. We are working with local animation companies to ensure we are supporting the industry for kids.

The issue here is that children are not watching traditional television. For many years, we have seen a move to an online world. We are on YouTube and we are increasing our presence in that space. Anybody who has kids knows that they want to see what they want when they want to, and they will not wait for a linear schedule. There is a lot going on here but do not think for a second that Irish language programming is the only area that is underfunded. There are many, given the situation that we are in.

Photo of Brendan GriffinBrendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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Is there any comment on "The Den"?

Ms Dee Forbes:

"The Den" is a personal favourite of mine. I remember it from the first time around. As the Deputy said, it fulfilled a fantastic role during the pandemic. We keep these matters under constant review. "The Den" fulfilled a particular role. We have stood it down for now. That is not to say that it might not come back again. We are evolving all the time. Different programme ideas work for different times. I recognise the value the programme had. It certainly brought nostalgia back to the fore. As the Deputy said, children and parents enjoyed it.

Ms Moya Doherty:

As Ms Forbes said, we all have our favourites. We all grew up in a certain area. There are programmes that we prefer to others. We do not always agree. That tension will always exist between public service media and the audience. Going back, the bigger picture is that the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, which is the regulatory body set up by the Government, recommended an increase of €30 million a year for RTÉ. The previous committee recommended in 2017 that there should be a change in the licence fee. If that umbrella overview is sorted now, we can make the programmes that everybody wants.

Photo of Brendan GriffinBrendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I raised the point about "The Den" previously in the committee. The number of parents who contacted me on behalf of their children was not insignificant. It is important to make that point. I know it is funny but, at the same time, there is a serious point too, which I would like to be taken on board.

New Year's Eve is a night when many people are at home and will look for Irish content. Many will look to RTÉ television. Are the witnesses looking at plans for this year?

Ms Dee Forbes:

We constantly review our programming. As the Deputy pointed out, this year was very difficult. It was a difficult year here too. Many things that were supposed to happen on New Year's Eve did not happen, including the annual fireworks and the big bang moment at 12 midnight. There was meant to be a huge concert in Dublin Castle, which had to be cancelled because of Covid. There is no doubt we were dealing with incredibly difficult circumstances. I am sorry to hear that the Deputy did not enjoy the programme.

Photo of Brendan GriffinBrendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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I switched over to RTÉ radio and I got the last burst of "Auld Lang Syne" at two minutes past midnight.

Ms Dee Forbes:

It was a difficult night for guests. There was illness and many other issues. I take the Deputy's point. We always endeavour to make the best content we can.

Photo of Brendan GriffinBrendan Griffin (Kerry, Fine Gael)
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It has happened a number of times now. Will RTÉ not just focus this year? It has 11 months to work on it. Get it right for the arrival of 2023 please.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has made his point very well. It is a fair point. I call Senator Hoey, who has ten minutes.

Photo of Annie HoeyAnnie Hoey (Labour)
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I only have four questions, so I might not need all ten minutes. I am conscious the committee is focusing on the points that have been highlighted but, with the indulgence of the Chairman, I will circle onto the issue of bogus self-employment. Will RTÉ be carrying out a review of why this practice was allowed to continue for so long? Obviously, it is very expensive and will be a significant cost to the State. I refer to the issue of women who have lost out on maternity pay, carer's benefit and so on. There is a gender dimension to this. Will there be an internal review of why this practice was allowed to continue for so long?

On board recruitment, is it an issue that there is no board member with trade union or industrial relations experience on the-----

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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May I interrupt the Senator? She is straying away from the theme of the invitation issued to our guests. They may wish to respond on that issue, however. Does Ms Forbes wish to respond?

Ms Dee Forbes:

I again refute the notion that we were engaging in bogus employment practices. I mentioned to a previous speaker that the nature of broadcasting employment, and the media generally, is a combination of many contracts on an ongoing basis, such as part-time contracts and so on. It was flagged to me when I came in that we needed to look at this whole area. At that point, we immediately engaged a review of contractors and very quickly put in place a change to our policy of employment, first on a go-forward basis. We have done the review. A combination of time, legacy and changes in employment practice got us to where we are. I am now confident that we are on the right footing. We have put the employment-first practice in place and are determined to work with the various bodies with which we are working to get this to a good conclusion.

Photo of Annie HoeyAnnie Hoey (Labour)
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I appreciate Ms Forbes taking the time to respond. I am sure she feels that she is addressing this issue a lot and the review has been done. I invite her to respond to my question in respect of the board. I know it is tangential to the issue for discussion today but it is related to it.

Is there any update on when the vacancy for a midlands correspondent will be filled?

Ms Moya Doherty:

If I may return to the issue of the board, there is a staff representative on the board. Currently, that representative is Mr. Robert Shortt, who has an economic background. He is a terrific representative for the RTÉ staff. I refer to the modelling of other European broadcasting stations and the sheer volume of staff they employ. We have come out of a period of extreme economic upheaval and there is a serious threat in the jobs market but we have a duty of care in employment to those who are employed in RTÉ and this balance is almost impossible to achieve in an atmosphere where an organisation is constantly being threatened and funding is not available to meet the fundamental costs.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Senator have any other lines of questioning?

Photo of Annie HoeyAnnie Hoey (Labour)
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I ask our guests to provide an update on the vacancy for a midlands correspondent.

Ms Dee Forbes:

That is currently being looked at. We should have news on it shortly.

Photo of Annie HoeyAnnie Hoey (Labour)
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I thank our guests for indulging my somewhat tangential and around-the-corner questions.

Photo of Johnny MythenJohnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Forbes and Ms Doherty for their time and the opening statement. All present agree on how important a national independent broadcaster is for democracy. I say "Well done" to them on their efforts in the past two years.

I have two questions on the Irish language. Is RTÉ willing to make more sports commentary available in Irish? I am referring to sports other than Gaelic games, such as international soccer or rugby matches. Ms Forbes referred to this digital offerings in her opening statement. Is there a reason digital offerings are not included in commitments of Irish language hours?

How much do the highest earners cost? For what percentage of the overall budget does that account?

Ms Forbes stated at a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts that RTÉ is considering a blended model where free-to-air services would be supplemented by paid services to which viewers could subscribe. I ask her to provide an example of that or more details on the idea. Is there a concern that it would create inequality among citizens in terms of access to State broadcasting?

How much does RTÉ pay An Post to collect television licence fees? What is the success rate of An Post in that regard?

Ms Dee Forbes:

I thank the Deputy for his questions. I will deal with them in reverse order. The relationship with An Post is between it and the Department. We have no role in that relationship. An Post is commissioned by the Department, so the Deputy's question is more for the Department.

As regards the blended model, I was referring to the idea, in the area of sports in particular, of having rights whereby there could be a subscription model as well as a free model. For example, GAAGO is a venture we have with the GAA whereby people in territories outside Ireland can watch Gaelic games coverage for a subscription fee. If is fulfilling a need, if one likes, outside the territory. Another area is that this year we announced the launch of an over-the-top subscription service with the United Rugby Championship, URC. We were able to work with it to ensure a combination of free-to-air matches and over-the-top matches were available. This is becoming popular in the sports arena in particular because it allows us to ensure there is a free-to-air model. In the case of the URC, all of the Irish provinces' matches in Ireland will be on TG4 or RTÉ. Those outside the jurisdiction will be able to subscribe to get those matches, but also other matches, importantly. That is what that model is. It is something that we started with the GAA and are now doing with URC TV. We may seek to pursue it with other providers. It is an interesting model to combine free and paid access while ensuring that citizens of Ireland are getting the coverage for free.

As regards Irish language commentary on other sports, the work we are doing with TG4 in this space is interesting because TG4 has the rights for the URC as Gaeilge and we have the rights in the English language. I hope that, in time, there may be more like this.

The Deputy referred to high earners. The top ten, as such, account for just under 1% of our total cost base. That number has been reducing over time. The top ten earners now account for almost 40% less than in 2008. In fact, in 2019 I committed to it being reduced by 15% and that has been achieved. It is something we are keeping under review. I know it can be of interest to many people. I recognise that but I also stress that these presenters are very much in line with other presenters in the open market and, in addition, they have a dual role for us, if one likes. They are providing a public service but they also allow us to optimise commercial income, which is, as the Deputy is aware, a very important part of our income base, accounting for more than 40% at the moment.

Photo of Johnny MythenJohnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Can Ms Forbes provide a figure for the earnings of the top ten earners?

Ms Dee Forbes:

I do not have that figure to hand but I can happily furnish it to him after the meeting.

Photo of Johnny MythenJohnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I refer to increases in the television licence fee.

From talking to people I would know from my background, they would say it is not appropriate to increase it at this time. Many people would think an increase in the fee is not affordable.

Ms Dee Forbes:

To be clear, we are not at all suggesting any increase in the licence fee. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Any increase in the licence fee would be totally unfair to those who are paying it. We are saying the failure of the collection system, which is a combination of people evading payment of the fee along with the people who are claiming not to have a television, is bleeding €65 million. If that money was collected, there would be ample money in the current system to discuss the funds we are looking for or that the BAI recommended we should get some years ago. We are not saying the licence fee should be increased. We are saying the system should be reformed to avail of that bucket of money that should be available to the wider sector. That would not only be to RTÉ, which gets the fast majority of the licence fee revenue, but a big percentage goes into the BAI sound and vision fund to which broadcasters and radio projects can apply for funding for more content. It is a very important generator of Irish content. If the system was reformed, there would be money in the system with which to do other things. That is the point. We are not looking for an increase in the fee.

Photo of Johnny MythenJohnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Will Ms Forbes respond to the question on the digital offerings?

Ms Dee Forbes:

Will the Deputy remind me of it?

Photo of Johnny MythenJohnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Forbes said in the opening statement that digital offerings are not included in RTÉ's commitment to Irish language hours. Why is that the case?

Ms Dee Forbes:

This is a function of the Broadcasting Act. It is only traditional television and radio hours that are looked at. This is a feature of a Broadcasting Act that is out of date with the way everybody is broadcasting, watching, listening and consuming broadcasting at present. That is why that is the case.

Photo of Johnny MythenJohnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Forbes.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The next speaker is Senator Cassells who has ten minutes.

Photo of Shane CassellsShane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Ms Doherty and Ms Forbes and thank them both for their service on behalf of RTE. It is very much valued.

Given that Deputy Griffin was calling for "The Den" to be brought back, I call on Ms Forbes to ensure "Radharc" would be brought back. A good friend of mine, Fr. Bob McCabe from Navan - mass is often broadcast from Navan and we provide a service at 10.30 a.m. on RTÉ News Now - told me many elderly people would love to see old episodes of "Radharc", a much loved programme, re-broadcast on RTE News Now in the afternoon. Ms Forbes might take that on board.

Ms Forbes mentioned GAAGO and my ears pricked up when she spoke about the fees charged for the external purchase of such games. It is great for the diaspora to be able to avail of that. Ms Forbes is looking at her financial models in the context of The Future of Media Commission report. I agree with Senator Malcolm Byrne that it is regrettable it is still not published. It has been on the Minister's desk since 16 October. It is a disgrace we have not yet got that report. It has been leaked to be damned in any event. RTÉ is competing with Sky Sports in the context of the GAA. Does Ms Forbes ever envisage pay per view events would be considered by RTÉ in its financial funding models given it is competing against Sky Sports now for those games?

Ms Dee Forbes:

The Deputy is right in that the sports arena is very competitive. We are fighting constantly with rights' increases. In recent months we have come together with other broadcasters to ensure we can keep as much content free to air as possible. The notion of public service broadcasting is to provide the best Irish content to the audience. To do that for the United Rugby Championship, URC, we came together with TG4. We share the matches and on top of that there is the URC TV player. Also, we announced just last week that to ensure the Six Nations remained free to air, we and Virgin Media have come together to ensure that happens. That was extremely important for ourselves and Virgin Media but, most important, for the Irish people. That is a model to try to keep the sports free to air.

Photo of Shane CassellsShane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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RTÉ is often criticised but I would praise it for making sure international events are secured. However, the price of these events is quite substantial. Ms Forbes is categorically saying that to be able to secure events she would not anticipate ever putting any such games on a pay per view platform on RTÉ.

Ms Dee Forbes:

Certainly, at the moment that would not be our intention. We may well have models like we have with the URCTV or GAAGO but who is to say what could happen in the future

Photo of Shane CassellsShane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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That is why I have asked that question. The Future of Media Commission report is likely to kick that back to Ms Forbes in terms of finding those gaps in funding, notwithstanding the €65 million. Is that something that has been countenanced by RTÉ's financial controller on the basis that these events cost an awful lot of money and we are competing against pay per view platforms? A television licence fee costs €160. My Sky basic package subscription costs me more over €1,000 per year. If I want to watch a big sports event on Sky, I will pay €29.95 to view it on top of my subscription. Has consideration of having a pay per view model for sports events domestically in Ireland ever been on RTÉ's financial controller's desk?

Ms Dee Forbes:

From a public service broadcasting point of view, our number one priority is to have it free to air.

Photo of Shane CassellsShane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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It has never been countenanced though, has it?

Ms Dee Forbes:

No.

Photo of Shane CassellsShane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Ms Forbes alluded to the Virgin Media deal struck in the past week, and it is good to see two broadcasters coming together, but is that model something she has considered? The Sky deal on the GAA ran from 2017 to 2022. That deal was criticised and the GAA was heavily criticised. The GAA has a financial model it has to fulfil. Politicians like to get up and kick the GAA in the Dáil, Seanad and at this committee. Is that a scenario whereby RTÉ could work with Virgin Media, which has previously had the GAA rights, and squeeze Sky off the pitch to secure complete free to air for GAA domestic games in Ireland?

Ms Dee Forbes:

The Senator can appreciate that, first, I cannot comment on individual deals and, second, that is a matter for the GAA. When rights come up for discussion, the various rights holders will approach the broadcaster as to what they are looking for.

Photo of Shane CassellsShane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely. RTÉ has struck a ground-breaking relationship, as Ms Forbes said last week, with another domestic television company in Ireland. Could she envisage RTÉ working with that company in other sporting codes in the future?

Ms Dee Forbes:

It is fair to say that we would like to work with it further. That is for sure.

Photo of Shane CassellsShane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Returning to the financial situation, Ms Forbes mentioned the evasion of the licence fee. I discussed that with her at the Committee of Public Accounts previously and with respect to a petition some five years ago but nothing has happened since. This committee previously reported on two key proposals, one, to get Revenue to collect the fee in order that we would get the €65 million into the system and, two, to have a flat broadcasting charge, regardless of the people who say they do not have a television yet they have a plasma screen stuck on the wall. In terms of grappling with this issue, this committee's recommendations is the closest we have come to doing so. We have seen from the leaked extracts from The Future of Media Commission report that it is proposed to abolish the licence fee. Does Ms Forbes support that?

Ms Dee Forbes:

It is important to say we put forward in our submission the recommendation all the members made in 2017. When asked, we would favour the idea of a household charge collected by Revenue, as the committee's report indicated many years ago. The discussion of the funding is not for me or anybody on this call to decide; it is ultimately a matter for the regulator. This is why the creation of a new regulator, that is the media commission, which is proposed in the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill, is also fundamental to this process. It is not for any of us here to decide. There are numerous models that have worked for many countries. Italy is a great example of that. It moved from a chronic evasion space to bringing in a charge, which was linked to the electricity bill. The compliance level was at such a level that they reduced the overall amount of the charge.

There were many models. The model to which the Senator referred to in terms of abolishing the licence fee and going to a tax-based system works fantastically well in the Nordic countries, for example, but the crucial thing here is that whatever happens-----

Photo of Shane CassellsShane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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We have already seen people in the Department----

Ms Dee Forbes:

-----it needs to be independent, fair, stable and accountable.

Photo of Shane CassellsShane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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We have already seen leaks from the Department of Finance which says it is opposed to the Exchequer picking up the bill, which would lead to debates from Virgin Media, as well. It is a discussion because, ultimately, the €500 million that has been lost over the past number of years has impacted on what programming can be done with what was coming back to RTÉ and what it would be required to raise from a commercial point of view. That is why I was going with my line of questioning on what other financial models Ms Forbes has countenanced, because if RTÉ has to compete on an international basis, be it the Olympics or whatever, she is considering pay-per-view models in order to be able to buy these things, because it has a huge impact on what RTÉ can provide in its programming. With regard to the abolition, is Ms Forbe's preferred model to keep with the TV licence fee? I am looking at the submission she sent into us which she has headlined as saying it is no longer fit for purpose.

Ms Dee Forbes:

That is correct.

Photo of Shane CassellsShane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Is Ms Forbes advising to scrap the licence fee and move to the broadcasting charge? Is that still her preferred option?

Ms Dee Forbes:

Yes, that is our preferred option.

Photo of Shane CassellsShane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Senator Malcolm Byrne also touched on the policy of retiring at 65. Obviously, we had the case last year which ended in the settlement with Anne Roper for €100,000. Are people still being asked to retire at 65 and has a policy been put in place since that case?

Ms Dee Forbes:

People have contracts, many of which have been in existence for quite some time. The retirement age in the majority of contracts is 65. We are dealing with all of this on a case-by-case basis. In the majority of cases, people leave at 65. As others come up, we will address them accordingly.

Photo of Shane CassellsShane Cassells (Fianna Fail)
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Will there be positive engagement with those who are approaching 65, but do not want to retire? Has a policy been put in place since the court case last year?

Ms Dee Forbes:

We will facilitate all conversations.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I welcome our two guests. Some of my questions might be repetitive, for which I apologise. What I very much want to touch on pertains to Senator Cassell's final remarks. My understanding from people within RTÉ is that in spite of the court cases lost - I am not sure how far these go back - in Anne RoperversusRTÉ the organisation was found to discriminate-----

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I have been reminded and will remind Deputy McGrath that we have to stick within the confines of the invitation, within which the court case does not fall. Ms Forbes has already answered that question. I ask Deputy McGrath to continue in a different vein.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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She has not answered it. I am talking about a court case in the public domain. RTÉ has not changed the policy. With two ladies at the helm - and I wish them well and have no animosity towards them - I am surprised that this policy has not changed. People are getting emails nine months before they are due to retire to tell them that the date is coming. Ms Forbes has said she would engage with everyone. That is not an answer. We know of certain deals with some of the male presenters, whose names I will not mention, who are there at 66 or 69. It seems very strange that in the present climate, RTÉ cannot make right what was found to be wrong by the courts.

The same goes back to the situation with paying Revenue. While RTÉ outright denies there are any strange practices going on in terms of subcontractors or whatever, will there be huge social welfare bills?

Gaeilge, ár dteanga, is certainly not the only area to feel cuts. Does Ms Forbes work with Foras na Gaeilge, Conradh na Gaeilge or Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, the people who try to promote our language and culture? Does she engage with them? I received considerable complaints about the content this Christmas and I will not even go into new year's debacle. There are problems and it is just not good enough.

I disagree with some of my colleagues about the coverage of the pandemic. What type of funding has the Government paid in advertising to RTÉ? There was no balance and it instilled fear into our elderly population, in particular, who have RTÉ, do not use other channels and pay the licence fee. I am deeply critical of and have many more questions about that, because it frightened the life out of people and went totally over the top. Nobody with a different narrative was allowed near the place or inside the front gate. RTÉ did not cover protests that were held and gave suspect numbers of figures of those who attended them.

Ms Dee Forbes:

The Deputy asked whether we had interactions with Comhaltas or Conradh na Gaeilge. We do. We have a great relationship with Comhaltas. We work with it on covering the fleadh every year and there is an ongoing, strong relationship, as there is with all of the Irish language bodies. We are committed to doing more in this area, but it is a challenge.

The advertisers decide where they want to advertise and at what weight. It has nothing to do with us in terms of any advertiser, be it Government or not. That was a decision taken by the agency that works for the Government to place advertising around messaging and information, etc. That was a feature of the pandemic and it is worth saying that advertising during the pandemic, especially in the early days, was significantly challenged. We and every other broadcaster and media outlet saw massive reductions in advertising. It was a challenging time for anybody relying on advertising given the economic state of the country, but that has nothing to do with us. Whoever the advertiser is decides where they advertise and what the message is. Provided the message is legal and complies with the codes, we take that advertising.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Did Ms Forbes every hear the adage that he who plays the piper calls the tune? I will be able to ask parliamentary questions to ascertain that, but it was unfair, unbalanced and the one narrative, with nothing or nobody else involved. Ms Forbes is not answering the questions, but I cannot make her do so. I am very unhappy.

With regard to coverage of the fleadh, it is a wonderful event. I go to most of them. My family takes part in them and we have sadly missed them for the past couple of years. Why would RTÉ not cover that? I am not talking about engaging with ways RTÉ could nurture the language. It is bound to be in breach through the content it has provided. What is it doing, meaningfully, to correct that?

Ms Moya Doherty:

There are a couple of things, in an overview, that are probably worth mentioning to do with what was definitely on the agenda today for discussion, which is RTÉ's public service statement and commitment. Every five years that is addressed and as part of that process, RTÉ goes out to talk to its audience and ask it what it thinks of RTÉ; what it wants and whether it likes RTÉ and trusts it. Let us talk about some statistics. For 2020, of the audiences who are committed to RTÉ and watch it said, 89% said it was important that RTÉ produced a mix of programmes and content. Some 89% agreed audiences should have access to a broad range of high-quality content.

Some 92% say it is important to provide coverage of events of national interest across cultural, sport, politics and other areas and 87% also say that it is important that RTÉ provides archive material documenting the heritage and everyday life in Ireland, which should be accessible in all formats. Earlier, a Senator mentioned "Radharc". I was totally committed to "Radharc" programming. There is a vast swathe of hours of wonderful television. During my time on this board, because the archives were in a perilous state we put some capital expenditure into protecting and upgrading them. Those archives will be made available free of charge to everybody around the country. We may or may not like a particular programme or think there is not enough of something, but all of those things can be addressed. We do address them regularly with our public. My ask of this committee is that it tell us what type of public service media it wants and, when The Future of Media Commission statement is made, to tell us how it will respond. If we believe, as has been stated, it will come out as revenue, how will this committee respond?

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I thank Ms Doherty. I appreciate the archive is very important. Given that at the time door-to-door surveys were not permitted, how were the surveys, which gave such magnificent results, undertaken? What method was used?

Ms Dee Forbes:

This was a very large public consultation. We are obliged to consult with the public. It was done by an independent research company on our behalf. Almost 10,000 members of the public engaged with us. It was one of the biggest engagements ever in a public consultation. The numbers referenced by Ms Doherty are robust. They highlighted what is important to the people of Ireland and what they want from their public service media. We are in a process with the board. Hopefully, pending the publication of The Future of Media Commission report we will then be publishing our next public service statement based on that. That is about outlining the principles and activities that we need to undertake on behalf of the Irish people to ensure that we are fulfilling our remit.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Was the survey carried out by telephone or online?

Ms Dee Forbes:

It was by way of telephone and online given the pandemic.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Fair enough. I ask Ms Doherty and Ms Forbes to look at the ladies under their care, some of whom are very unhappy and feel bullied and threatened. That is not good enough. RTÉ has been already found by the courts to not be treating people fairly. I would expect people to be looked after, especially in the current climate.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's time has expired. The next speaker is Senator Warfield.

Photo of Fintan WarfieldFintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I welcome the chairman and general secretary of RTÉ, Ms Doherty and Ms Forbes, respectively. In her opening statement Ms Doherty said that she was one those who called for The Future of Media Commission. Is it frustrating to her or Ms Forbes that we have yet to see the publication of the report of The Future of Media Commission? The commission's inaugural meeting was on 29 October 2020 and it was required to report within nine months, which brought us to 29 July 2021. Come this Saturday, it will be, at least, six months' since the Minister received the report of The Future of Media Commission. Is that frustrating for Ms Doherty and Ms Forbes?

Ms Moya Doherty:

We are beyond frustrated by it.

Photo of Fintan WarfieldFintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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It is frustrating for me that there have been leaks in the press. I do not know where they are coming from. A Government party Senator who spoke here earlier criticised those leaks. It appears we have a three party Government running in three different directions. A considerable amount of public moneys was allocated to that commission. It cost €420,000 to set up that commission to produce a report. I call on the Minister to publish The Future of Media Commission report.

I commend RTÉ on working with others in the industry on drama and sport and with Virgin Media television to ensure that sport remains free-to-air. On the RTÉ player, I am one of the people who combines subscription services with the RTÉ player through the Apple television box. Following on from the Committee of Public Accounts hearings last week, how much funding will be required to bring the RTÉ player to a world class place? I acknowledge the difficulties around live television streaming online, but how much will be required to bring RTÉ play to world class place?

Ms Dee Forbes:

The honest answer is it will cost millions. It is something that we have been looking at over the past number of years. We have made progress. We are competing with very heavily funded global players in this space. In the submission to The Future of Media Commission, we made it very clear that capital investment is something that this organisation has been starved of in that we have been in a constant downward funding cycle. The current ways and means of watching, listening, etc. have changed so much that we have to be at the table in this space. Our capital expenditure is €7.5 million for the entire organisation. It needs to be significantly more than that. That is something that we have addressed and are continually addressing. We have made some provision in the future for some of this but if funding does not come our way then this cannot come to a place where it an be up there in that world class space.

Photo of Fintan WarfieldFintan Warfield (Sinn Fein)
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I will move on to linear broadcasting which, I accept, is probably not part of the brief for today. I have never had the opportunity to ask questions about 2rn or Saorview so this may just be an opportunity for me to make a comment if the witnesses cannot come on it. Some 10% of television households receive services through Saorview. With the exception of RTÉ, all channels are standard definition on Saorview. We moved to a digital terrestrial television service so that we could have more choice for viewers and, also, HD services. In the past, ComReg has commented about 2rn and RTÉ having the ability to engage in exploitative and exclusionary behaviours in terms of digital terrestrial television. Is it good enough that for 10% of television households most of their channels are in standard definition and for it to be so difficult for the likes of TG4 to have Nuacht TG4 as a standalone channel and, eventually, Cúla4 as a standalone channel on digital terrestrial television? Is that acceptable to RTÉ? Is there anything that can be done to improve the situation? While I am talking about the RTÉ player, linear broadcasting will be around for at least ten years. Can we improve that situation for 10% of television households such that they can have high definition? For example, if one watches Leaders' Questions on RTÉ, it will be in HD, but if one switches over to the Oireachtas television channel it will be in standard definition. I know which one I would go to. Is that an acceptable situation? Is there anything that can be done to improve that for so many television households?

Ms Dee Forbes:

I will try to answer, but it is a topic for another day. I am happy to provide a great deal more information on this. The Senator is correct that RTÉ is obliged to entertain conversations on this with every broadcaster and we do. The Senator may have be aware that Sky News has recently come on to Saorview, which means we now have RTÉ, TG4, Virgin and Sky News. The model is a regulated tariff model. We do not set the price. It is regulated. Part of the problem here is that we are a small jurisdiction and transmission costs are expensive. The more people that come on to the service, the less it will cost every other party. That is the challenge here. We do not, nor would we ever, prevent anybody coming onto the platform. It always boils down to economics. That is the reality.

As I said, I am happy to provide further information on all of this if the committee would like me to do so.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Senator Warfield. I apologise to Senator Carrigy for having skipped over him. I will call him next. Before doing so, I have some housekeeping to deal with. We promised to provide a ten-minute comfort break. I had not heard the term "comfort break" until today. I am obliged to be absent for the next session owing to another commitment. If nobody has any objections, I nominate Senator Malcolm Byrne to take the chair. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will now suspend for ten minutes.

Sitting suspended at 15.11 p.m. and resumed at 15.25 p.m.

Senator Malcolm Byrne took the Chair.

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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The next speaker is Senator Michéal Carrigy

Photo of Micheál CarrigyMicheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I welcome our witnesses. As others have said, it is disappointing the Future of Media Commission report has not been published for us to speak about here today.

The witnesses sent documentation on the appointment of board members, which is in the brief for today. To be honest, I was extremely frustrated and disappointed with what happened last year when there was a nomination by the working group fully endorsed by this committee, which represents licence holders and the taxpayer. The views of this committee should have been taken on board and adhered to. It was frustrating that even when we sent correspondence to RTÉ, we did not receive return correspondence for the following meeting. We had to send correspondence again, including about the party that took place. It is very disappointing when this committee represents the taxpayer, which funds the running of RTÉ. It is a remit of the committee to make such recommendations and they should have been taken on board. There should not be a position where a person nominated by this committee and who was extremely experienced in television felt he had to resign after the first meeting.

Many topics have been discussed over the past hour and a half and I will touch on a few of those. I compliment RTÉ on its sport coverage, particularly its coverage of many minority sports. We have free-to-air GAA etc. but it has been mentioned by others that one must pay approximately €29.95 to see premium games on Sky etc. We recently had representatives from the Federation of Irish Sport before us and we spoke about the 20x20 campaign and increasing the coverage of ladies' sports and participation in those sports. What is the position of RTÉ on that? There are definitely many more female commentators on various sports but is RTÉ looking to increase both the number of commentators and coverage of ladies' games?

Ms Dee Forbes:

I thank the Senator for his questions. He correctly points out that sport in its entirety is something we must represent and that is very much the objective. We were active participants in the 20x20 campaign and throughout that period we proactively increased our representation of women. Last year was incredible for Irish women in sport and at the RTÉ sports awards, seven from the ten of the nominees were women. The winner, Ms Rachel Blackmore, was a woman, which was utterly fantastic.

We showed 36 live women's sports events in 2021, which is a record outside of 2019, when we showed the Womens' World Cup. We have made great progress and continue to do more. This year we have the Women's Six Nations, the Women's Euros and European games that include athletics, swimming and rowing. Our endeavours in the area go on. We have seen record audiences for the Irish women's soccer team, which has been fantastic, and we have more female pundits, presenters and co-commentators. Last year we managed to show every one of the women's international soccer matches, despite huge issues with where they were etc.

We are very committed to increasing our coverage of women's sport and that is again against a backdrop of decreased and challenging funding. Sport is a particularly expensive area.

Certainly, our 20x20 campaign continues and we are very proud of the progress we have made. We want to do more.

Ms Moya Doherty:

Again, on behalf of the RTÉ board I say that what happened is very regrettable. However, we run the RTÉ board very much in a 21st-century flat structure. It is not a hierarchical structure and we need to get consensus. The consensus was not available on the day and there was a genuine concern about conflict of interest and perception of conflict of interest with such an enormous contract being handed to a board member. That posed my board colleagues huge concern and much anxiety. It is not what we would have wanted.

Photo of Micheál CarrigyMicheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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That is fair enough and I thank Ms Doherty. I have some points on children's television. People were talking about this and it stirred some memories, and I can still remember watching Zig and Zag at lunchtime in the canteen at college. I have three young kids but when they turn on television they do not switch to RTÉ, to be quite honest. During Covid-19, however, there was a project linking in schools and doing some programmes on television at a certain time. It is an area that could be looked at, perhaps with languages like Irish etc. Perhaps it could be tied in with the Department of Education so that kids at home full-time or at the weekend could be doing some educational work by watching certain programmes on RTÉ approved by the Department.

I take the point that RTÉ is not yet seeking an increase in the licence fee and the witnesses are 100% right that a significant amount of money is out there. My party, Fine Gael, in a proposal for The Future of Media Commission indicated there could be a public service media charge on all households that could generate a figure of more than €65 million. Such a fund, if it comes about, should be available to all media, including written media, regional newspapers and radio stations. The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, funding is approximately 7%, although I could be wrong.

Perhaps I am misreading what was said in that this should be moved away from An Post. The witnesses may not want to say it but that should not happen. The witnesses mentioned that we must amend the Broadcasting Act and that is the first action to be taken. We should not remove An Post as the collection agent. The difficulty that An Post as a collection agent has arises from the anomaly in the Broadcasting Act and that should be dealt with first. We do not want a position where the licence fee is collected by the Revenue Commissioners. It is not something I am in favour of and we must amend the Act and let An Post collect the fee. A significant amount would be collected. What are the views of the witnesses on that?

Ms Dee Forbes:

As I said, there are many ways in which the fee could be collected. We must get to a solution that is fair, transparent and accountable. Those are the priority characteristics. An Post is the current collection agent and it has had issues with the way in which its contract has been rolled over. It has asked for help with the database. We are at a point where we need an overhaul of the system to really reflect the current ways of viewing, watching and listening. The notion of a television licence fee is outdated because of what people are viewing in so many other ways.

It is important for us to discuss the range of options because there is probably no bad option. As I said, there are many different options in play around Europe and we are not the only country that has seen huge evasion rates over the years. Other countries have grappled with it and came up with a solution, whether it is a charge or taxation system. A number of countries have come to a place where they are happy with this. That is part of the reason The Future of Media Commission was set up and it sought to look at the funding of public service broadcasting.

The Senator is correct also in speaking about the sustainability of the Irish media sector because we are a vulnerable sector. We are a nation squeezed between two English-speaking giants that have very strong media and broadcasting players. We are sort of in the middle of that. To maintain the Irish voice and strong independent Irish journalism, the commission was again asked to look at the wider sector. As I mentioned, the €65 million out there in uncollected or evaded fees could go an awful long way not just with RTÉ but the wider sector as well.

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I can allow the Senator some latitude if he has another question.

Photo of Micheál CarrigyMicheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I am delighted to hear the comments that this is acceptable. The recommendation we put forward was that this would be a media charge on all households. I believe we would see significantly higher percentage payment through the An Post network if it were payable by every household. I am delighted Ms Forbes agrees this should be spread across all media, as that is an extremely important point.

A delegation from RTÉ was before us approximately 18 months ago and there was a comment about there being 100 managers in the organisation. There has been much cost-cutting etc. within the organisation so what are the number of management positions and average salaries of those positions?

Ms Dee Forbes:

I do not have that information to hand because it was not on the agenda. Very broadly, we have been looking at our resources for many years, as the Senator knows. We have had a number of initiatives to look at staffing. It is also important to note that our role and the remit we must fulfil is very demanding. Staff are in place to fulfil those services. In the briefing note there was a table showing the other public service broadcasters in Europe of comparable size to RTÉ and overall staff numbers. One can see we are very comparable or even below other broadcasters of our level. We have been assessed many times by independent entities on the right staffing levels for RTÉ and we are there or thereabouts.

More reductions in staff now would be linked with reductions in service. We all know that is not right because that would be a reduced service to the public. This is an ongoing area for consideration and we look at it constantly but this is very challenging. It is also very challenging in an environment where we need new skills. There has been much talk today around digital and technology and such areas are very expensive to hire into. Those people are in high demand. We have a constant challenge to facilitate both new skills coming in while maintaining our current services. That is where we are.

Ms Moya Doherty:

I thank the committee again for the opportunity. I really appreciate the Senator's support for change as that must happen in how funds are collected and bringing certainty to that. Ms Forbes mentioned earlier that the key elements are independence, stability, fairness and accountability. RTÉ has probably always suffered from an assumption that it should meet the needs of those who are in charge of it. The only people that RTÉ should meet the needs of are citizen audiences who are paying for the service. RTÉ must continue to shine a lens on all aspects of society it represents.

It should be a patriotic public service media in that it shows all that is bad and good about a nation in order that it may be able to confront and negotiate all that is good and bad. No public service media can be a voice for a specific set of political ideologies. We have darkening political clouds all over place in the two English-speaking countries near to us, the UK and America, which are now into sound-bite politics. If public service media gets something wrong, it is a mistake. If commercial television gets something wrong, for example, Fox News, it is an ideology and an agenda. We have to do the best we can, including everybody here today and everyone in politics, to ensure that we protect the independent voice, that we do not have sound-bite politics and that we do not truncate very important issues and assertions of some core truths into something that is glib and untrue. A lie and an untruth are two different things. We are watching so many untruths unfold around us.

I have to say that trust in RTÉ news and current affairs is extraordinarily high. It gives me comfort, as an Irish citizen, as I am sure it does many others. To give certainty to that voice in the future and to have the committee on our side for that, no matter what members agree with, like or do not like, is very important. As I said in my statement earlier, time is not on our side.

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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All members who on are on the call have contributed. I will allow any member who wants to ask a brief question to do so once they indicate.

Photo of Johnny MythenJohnny Mythen (Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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How many complaints does RTÉ get on an annual basis? Will the representatives outline the main themes? How promptly are complaints dealt with?

Ms Dee Forbes:

We have a robust complaints system, as outlined by our regulator. Again, there is a very clear code on how to make an official complaint. We endeavour to respond to complaints within 20 days. That is our norm. Beyond that, I will give the Deputy details from our annual report of overall numbers. We received 32 complaints in 2020 and 55 in 2019. Of the complaints that came in, zero were upheld by the BAI. The authority is our regulator so all the complaints that go to it are then adjudicated on by it.

Photo of Micheál CarrigyMicheál Carrigy (Fine Gael)
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I concur with Ms Doherty's comments. It is without doubt that RTÉ news is the most trusted news source we have and is of the highest quality. I just wanted to concur with the comments she made. I wish Ciarán Mullooly, RTÉ's midlands correspondent, well in his new venture locally in County Roscommon. It was mentioned earlier that the position is to be filled soon.

Photo of Malcolm ByrneMalcolm Byrne (Fianna Fail)
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I do not think anybody else is indicating. I thank Ms Doherty and Ms Forbes for their contributions and engagement. When the Future of Media Commission report has finally been published, and there has been time to reflect on it, it will be useful at that stage for our committee to meet again.

The point Ms Doherty made was very important. We may often disagree and we may take issue, but I agree with colleagues in that, for the most part, there is trust. We talk about trusted journalism and trusted public service journalism; that is clearly there. The overwhelming majority of parliamentary colleagues would say that while we might not always agree with programming, and we will take issue with some of the stances taken on programmes, or the perceived lack of balance, there are very clear examples of such journalism, such as the "Prime Time" coverage last week and this week of the very tragic death of Eden Heaslip. That type of programming informs the work we do and the issue we are dealing with as a committee in respect of the online safety and media regulation Bill. Certainly, there will always be tensions. That is healthy, but that partnership is important.

Deputy Griffin had so many scripted one-liners about the new year's eve show that Ms Forbes might consider hiring him to present it next 31 December. He could provide some light entertainment. Again, I sincerely thank the representatives and all their teams for the work they do. We look forward to engaging with them again.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.46 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 2 February 2022.