Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Like Deputy Conway-Walsh, I was taking notes upstairs. I came down to the meeting prepared to ask certain questions A, B and C but I will change tack and ask a different question on the basis of what Senator Mullen said. Before I engage in the debate, I will say that I am in favour of an interview-type system but as the witnesses explained, the practicalities of that would be challenging. As Deputy Ó Laoghaire stated, such a system has an inherent potential for bias. At the same time, I believe that it is the ideal. As Senator Mullen asked, why can we not strive for the ideal?

Then again, I find the teacher in me questioning what can be learned in 15 minutes that could not be explained or examined by a teacher over two years, six years or whatever the case may be during senior cycle. It is worthwhile having the debate but the practicalities of it weigh heavily on me.

In relation to Professor Hegarty's comments on the Irish language, unfortunately, I spent 15 years teaching the language as a secondary school teacher. I have my own opinions as to where it falls down and what we can do better, but the one statistic that sticks out is that 58% or 59% of leaving certificate students took Irish last year as a leaving certificate examination subject. Between exemptions and students dropping out, it is obvious that students are voting with their feet when it comes to Irish and the numbers doing it are not what they should be for a compulsory subject. That is something we need to reflect on when we are talking about leaving certificate reform. I have my own opinions on Irish. The bonus point route is something that needs to be looked at. We need to give value to it, as we did with mathematics in the past, including by introducing applied mathematics as a distinct course. Perhaps we could introduce an applied Irish course. There is merit in studying that option because we need to place a value on Irish.

While I am on the topic of value, I listened upstairs with amusement to the debate on apprenticeships. Part of me thinks that if we offered apprenticeship courses that required 400 or 500 points in the leaving certificate, people would be beating down the doors to get on to the courses, such is their enthusiasm for the points race.

I have a few questions, which the witnesses can answer in any order they like. The first concerns Irish. I note that in its submission, the ETBI, made reference to the junior certificate reform. Like the ETBI in its submission, I welcomed the reform of Irish at junior certificate level. It gives students more variety, it uses technology and has presentation built into it, but it is much more difficult than the previous junior certificate Irish course. I believe the ETBI stated that it is acting as a "deterrent" for people down the line to continue Irish to leaving certificate. I ask the witnesses for their opinion on junior certificate reform, the impact it has had on Irish as a junior certificate cycle subject, and the issues I spoke about previously in respect of leaving certificate Irish.

My second question is addressed to the ETBI. In its submission to the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment on the senior cycle review, it stated:

Cognisance should be taken in any reform of those students likely to be left behind for reasons not always academic. Any reforms should not further burden, by default, an already disadvantaged cohort.

I ask the witnesses to expand on that commentary. Is it referring to making extra provision for disadvantaged children and people from disadvantaged backgrounds or those with special educational needs?

My third question relates to the comment I made about apprenticeships. What can we do to make them more attractive to students? My brother became a fabricator by profession. It is about earning potential and the value some people place on jobs. As a fabricator, my brother earned much more than I did as a teacher. However, I do not think that message has got out to wider society.

My fourth question relates to the modules and credits system that some of the witnesses have spoken about. I think it is a great idea. Going back to the issue of Irish, in the case that students went to the Gaeltacht for a period of time, whether for six weeks or eight weeks, I always advocated for that to be accredited as part of their result. Can that approach be built into other subjects?