Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We have one small piece of housekeeping to deal with. The Criminal Justice (Public Order) (Quadbikes and Scramblers) (Amendment) Bill 2021 was recently referred to the select committee. It was agreed at the private meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport and Communications this morning that the joint committee would undertake the scrutiny of Private Members' Bills. A decision by the select committee is also required on this issue. Accordingly, I propose that the select committee agree that scrutiny of Private Members' Bills referred be undertaken as a joint committee as distinct from a select committee. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The purpose of this meeting is to undertake a mid-year review of Estimates for public services 2021 in respect of programme A of Vote 29 - Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, and Vote 31 - Department of Transport. I remind members that the committee has no role in approving the Estimates. It is an ongoing opportunity for the committee to examine departmental expenditure, to make the process more transparent and to engage in a meaningful way on relevant performance issues. I welcome the Minister for Transport and Environment, Climate and Communications and his officials to the meeting.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Witnesses attending remotely outside of the Leinster House campus should note that there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses who are physically present. It is great to see the Minister here in person, along with his officials. It is another indication that we are emerging from Covid. Witnesses participating in this committee session from a jurisdiction outside the State are advised that they should also be mindful of their domestic law and how it may apply to evidence they give. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

For anyone watching this meeting, Oireachtas Members and witnesses have the option of being physically present in the committee room or to join the meeting remotely via Microsoft Teams. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. Reluctantly, I will not permit members to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member participating via Microsoft Teams, prior to making his or her contribution to the meeting, to confirm that he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus. If attending in the committee room, you are asked to exercise personal responsibility to protect yourself and others from the risk of contracting Covid-19. I strongly advise the practice of good hand hygiene and to leave at least one vacant seat between you and others attending. One should also always maintain an appropriate level of social distancing during and after the meeting. Masks should be worn at all times during the meeting except when speaking.

I call the Minister to make his opening statement.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I thank the Chair and members of the committee. I am glad to be here. It is quite an innovation that we have an opportunity, mid-year, to review the Estimates for these two key areas: communications and transport. I intend to present the 2021 mid-year Estimates for the Department of Transport, and for programme A of the Department of Environment, Climate and Communications.

As members will be aware, the budget for 2021 was set under conditions of uncertainty due to the ongoing Covid crisis. Nonetheless, my priority as Minister is to ensure that the funding needed to progress the Government’s objectives under the programme for Government, the climate action plan and the national development plan, NDP, is in place, and to take the necessary steps to ensure that this funding is well spent, getting value for money for the citizen.

My Department will continue to accelerate out spending programmes towards the end of the year, in line with spending profiles. My Department expects to spend €3.31 billion this year, up 24.5% on last year, largely reflecting the Department’s increase in capital spending, and I am particularly pleased that the structure of spending has changed in line, with double the amount expended on active travel, for example, compared with the previous year. It is anticipated at this stage that due to a combination of the tapering of Covid emergency expenditure and factors outside of our control such as planning and Covid-related delay, the overall underspend for 2021 will be circa €247 million, or 6.9% of the overall Vote.

One of the sectors most impacted by Covid is aviation. In the Department’s voted budget for 2021, programme A, relating to civil aviation, is forecast to show a net underspend of circa €12 million in terms of current expenditure as contingency for customer compensation in the event of a commercial failure of a tour or travel operator business was largely not required.

Programme B, relating to land transport, is forecast to show a net underspend for 2021 of almost €70 million. This reflects the initial increase in public health restrictions and the subsequent gradual removal of restrictions on public transport and the recovery in passenger numbers and fare revenue. The need for emergency Covid funding is starting to taper as passenger numbers recover, and I expect this trend to continue into 2022.

Programme C, relating to maritime transport and safety, is forecast to remain within budget.

Turning to capital investment, I expect there will be an underspend in 2021 of circa €165 million, or 6.5% of voted capital expenditure. It is my Department’s intention to apply to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to carry this capital into 2022. Programme A, relating to aviation, primarily funds small scale projects in regional airports through the regional airports programme. The two most significant projects under the aviation programme are the completion of the hold baggage screening project at Shannon Airport at a cost of €6.1 million, and the Cork runway overlay project, with a funding allocation of €10 million. Much of the programme for 2021 was funded via capital carryover from 2020 and an application for carryover of circa €7 million into 2022 will now be made.

Programme B, relating to land transport, constitutes the bulk of capital investment. I expect the roads construction programme to remain on track, with no significant underspends for 2021. Construction work will continue on projects such as the Dunkettle interchange, and commence on the Ballaghaderreen to Scramogue road. Significant capital is being invested in protection and renewal of the network. Almost €1 billion, or 40% of the Department’s entire capital allocation for 2021, will be invested in public-private partnership payments and in protection and renewal of the existing road network.

Subhead B6, carbon reduction, will almost certainly require a supplementary Vote towards the end of the year. This is due to the growth in electric vehicle sales in 2021, which has exceeded the capital allocation for grant support schemes. Electric vehicles now represent almost 15% of new car registrations and sales for 2021 show a year-on-year increase of 226% on the previous year. This may lead to sales and grant drawdown in 2021, which exceed allocated capital by almost €38 million, but that is a positive development, given our target of almost 1 million electric vehicles by 2030 as a key step towards carbon neutrality by 2050.

With the recent press comments on MetroLink in mind, I will comment on the overall shape of sustainable mobility investment. I currently see investment here as occurring in two broad strands. One strand comprises large numbers of small- to medium-scale projects that can be rolled out steadily and consist of moderate challenges that can be worked through either at a technical level or local government level. Citizens should be able to see the increasing impact of these programmes in their daily lives, be it a new low-emission bus, a new greenway link, a new footpath shortcut or a safe new cycle track or network for commuting, leisure or getting to school. These are all changes that are happening now and happening rapidly.

The second strand of sustainable mobility investment constitutes large-scale projects that take longer to design and deliver and the impact of which will be proportionately greater upon delivery. There has been steady progress on major projects in 2021, with the preliminary business cases for the construction components of the three Dublin mega-projects - BusConnects, Dart+ and MetroLink - due to go to the Government before the end of the year. This is the basis for cost estimates, risk management and future procurement strategies, so these are major milestones in project design and analysis. There is no lack of commitment to delivering on these projects but it is essential that we take the time now to ensure they meet the needs of citizens in terms of effective design and that we learn from the lessons of large-scale capital investment projects in other sectors so that the public finances are not put at risk.

Of course, there is more to transport infrastructure investment than just these three projects, so, in tandem with them, there is active travel management investment under subheads B8.1, B8.5 and B8.6. The investment agencies and local authorities are continuing to scale up to invest the available capital and ensure that the project design and delivery framework is in place to deliver. The allocated capital increased from €180.6 million in 2020 to €335.13 million in 2021 under the same active travel subheads, which represents an almost doubling of capital. Carryover into 2022 will be circa €90 million. Half of this capital carryover is due to delays in the progression of greenways due to the impact of Covid on construction, as well the utilisation of capital carried over from 2020, but these projects will continue to be advanced.

Under B8.2, the contract for maintenance of the rail network continues to deliver in accordance with Iarnród Éireann’s maintenance schedules. The new Dart fleet preferred bidder has been identified and contracts will be awarded on Government approval of the preliminary business case. The Intercity railcar project will now see railcar delivery in quarter 3 of 2022. I was pleased to see Pelletstown rail station opening last weekend, the first new station for eight years, and construction of the national train control centre continues.

Under B8.3, the new low emission buses are starting to appear on Dublin streets as the BusConnects project continues to be rolled out. One spine of BusConnects has been launched, with another due before the end of the year. I remind Deputies that BusConnects is a three-strand project comprising low emission vehicle fleets and new capacity, reconfiguration of the entire network to make it more efficient, better connected and easier to use, and the construction phase. The Luas capacity enhancement project is complete and the preliminary business case for MetroLink is expected to go before the Government before the end of the year. A new Bus Éireann fleet is being rolled out and detailed analysis of the transport requirements of regional cities in advance of significant investment in the years to come is under way. I expect combined carryover under B8.2 and B8.3 to be circa €40 million, or 5% of the allocation to the subheads.

Finally for transport, touching on the maritime programme, delays to the construction of two new Coast Guard stations at Greystones and Westport mean that it is unlikely that the capital allocation under subhead C3 will be spent in 2021. As a result, I anticipate a carryover application of approximately €8 million. While most of the underspends relate to planning and Covid, I remain committed to further developing the systems across the transport sector to minimise underspends in future years. The proposals in the NDP review to be published next week, which will include a significant increase in funding for transport, will facilitate more active competition between agencies for use of the funding available for large-scale transport investment on a timely basis.

I will now turn to the communication programme of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. This programme has a key role in delivering my Department’s vision for a climate neutral, sustainable and digitally connected Ireland. The goal of the programme is to support universal access to high-speed broadband for better-connected communities while ensuring that service providers are properly regulated and strengthened with cybersecurity. Overall, more than €233 million has been allocated to the communications programme in 2021, of which almost €15 million is current and €218 million is capital. An additional €15.2 million capital was carried over from 2020 for the delivery of the national broadband plan, NBP.

By mid-year, my Department incurred current expenditure of €5.6 million and capital expenditure of €62.4 million under the programme. This represents 88% of planned current expenditure and 79% of planned capital expenditure for the period. Current expenditure mainly relates to the Department's governance over key programme deliverables, including eircode and the NBP.

By far the biggest item of capital expenditure within this programme is the NBP at €212 million, with an additional €15.2 million carried over into the year. The Covid-19 pandemic has highlighted the importance of high capacity and reliable broadband to ensure that people, communities and businesses across Ireland can avail of the opportunities presented by the digital economy. National Broadband Ireland, NBI, commenced connections to the new fibre network in January of this year and build work is progressing across the 19 deployment areas, with 251,000 premises now surveyed. Expenditure to mid-year was €60 million. The Covid-19 pandemic has again impacted the delivery of the network and NBI has revised its target for premises passed by the network to 60,000 by the end of 2021, a 40% reduction in the target for the year. The Department is working closely with NBI to put in place a remedial plan and mitigation measures under the contract to address the impact of the pandemic on the project for 2021 and into the future, and to ensure that momentum in the build programme gets back on track.

Expenditure on the Digital Hub Development Agency and the National Digital Research Centre was on profile at mid-year. Additional funding was allocated in the 2021 Estimates for the development of a temporary facility for the National Cyber Security Centre and the Office of Public Works, OPW, has identified a suitable location. Work on design and procurement for the fit-out of this facility is under way and my Department anticipates that the full allocation will be spent by year end.

The communications programme is a cornerstone of the delivery of the Department's strategy through to 2023. While the Covid-19 environment has created some challenges in the roll-out of the NBP, all options available are being considered with a view to bringing delivery back in line with planned levels.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. The first slot is for Fine Gael so Deputy Carey has ten minutes.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister. I will refer to a few issues. I congratulate Mr. Pádraig Ó Céidigh who has been appointed the new chairperson of the board of the Shannon Group. That is a positive appointment for Shannon. He is a man of substance and has a deep understanding of aviation and how it works. Hailing from the west, he also has an understanding of the need for, and importance of, balanced regional development. I very much look forward to working closely with Mr. Ó Céidigh and the team in Shannon over the time ahead.

There are a number of issues with aviation. There is a need for a dramatic change in aviation policy. What is the current position of that policy? What plans does the Minister have to review it? Will he accept submissions to that policy? If we learned anything from Covid-19, it is that we need to disperse large volumes of people. We can do that with a good airport network around the country, including Shannon Airport. There is a massive amount of unused potential there. We could create it, and use it, as a hub. In the short to medium term, there is a need to establish a new package of aviation supports in the wake of the pandemic. We must re-establish strategic routes and underpin them with finances to make it more attractive for airlines to come to our airports. These points are being made by groups such as the chambers of commerce in Shannon, Ennis, Limerick and Galway, which came together and presented a report on this. I would like to hear the Minister's views on that. Are he and the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, working on providing a new package for aviation to underpin and re-establish strategic routes? Those routes in the case of Shannon Airport are the transatlantic routes to Boston and New York and getting a regular, workable connectivity to Heathrow and other European hubs, such as Frankfurt. Perhaps he would outline his plans in that regard.

Another issue is the Marine Casualty Investigation Board, MCIB. It is something we have discussed at length in this committee. I understand that a report has been lodged with the Department by Captain Steve Clinch on foot of a number of hearings held by this committee. I ask that Captain Clinch's report be published without delay and that action be taken on the recommendations contained in the report. If legislation is necessary, and I believe it is, that legislation should be worked on without delay. I also ask the Minister to publish the draft heads of legislation in respect of the MCIB that were produced back in 2010. This work was completed by a barrister, Ms Roisin Lacey. Basically, I understand that this legislation and the report completed by Captain Clinch come to the same conclusion - we need an independent investigative unit in the MCIB that is at arm's length from the board and has a properly funded, full-time investigative role. I look forward to hearing the Minister's response to those questions.

Finally, there is an ongoing issue with frequent flooding of the Ennis-Limerick railway line at Ballycar. I was formerly the chairperson of the then Joint Committee on Rural and Community Development and that committee held a number of hearings two years ago on this issue. All stakeholders were called to appear before the committee, including Irish Rail, the OPW, the Irish Aviation Authority, IAA, and the National Parks and Wildlife Service. There was a large number of stakeholders. They were mandated to come back with a solution and they did that. I compliment the role played by Irish Rail, Clare County Council and all the groups. They submitted a report to the Department in December 2020 and they outlined and recommended a solution to this ongoing problem. They put a cost of €16.5 million on it. They outlined in the extensive report, which runs to 173 pages-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That concludes your questions.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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What is the position with that report and what is the Minister's intention regarding its implementation?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I agree with the Deputy's comments about Mr. Pádraig Ó Céidigh and I wish him well in his new role as chair of Shannon Group. Many members, especially those of a certain vintage, will recall his work as a Senator on the Oireachtas committee with regard to water charges. His diplomatic approach to that will serve him well as he takes on this challenging and important role for regional development as well as for the immediate Shannon region. I support the Deputy's comments regarding how well suited he is for that role.

We have to do various things with regard to aviation policy. Just prior to the Covid pandemic the Department was looking at starting the scoping of a revised version of the full national aviation strategy. One of the things to do as we emerge from Covid and the immediate crisis period will be to re-initiate that. That will begin again towards the end of the year. It has to take a variety of matters into account, such as the fundamental shift in travel patterns that may arise in the medium and long term as a result of Covid. For example, it is uncertain whether business travel will return in the way that it existed previously.

There are other issues, including decarbonisation. The Deputy will be aware the European Commission's Fit for 55 package has radical plans for both the aviation and maritime sectors. We have to take that into account in national policy. Ireland may have an advantage or we will need to be ambitious in how we switch to alternative fuels, how we decarbonise to the best of our abilities and, with respect to our airports, how we use our location on the furthest west coast on the Atlantic to offer low-carbon solutions for people who have to cross the Atlantic and take other routes. More immediately, we are considering further aviation support packages as part of the immediate Covid response. There are various elements to this. The Deputy will be glad to hear that while nothing is finalised yet, my sense is the resistance to the use of antigen tests in aviation during the most of the past year and a half is starting to weaken. While their use is not over the line, yet I am confident we will be able to bring in measures for the use of those sorts of testing systems, which this committee has been promoting for a long time. Second and most critically, the ending of the quarantine system is welcome news for the aviation sector. Third, the recent decision by the US Government that from November we will start to see the return of the ability of transatlantic passengers to access the US is critically important. As well as those measures - and this is a matter for the Minister for Finance and the Government more broadly rather than for only our Department - we will have to consider the potential extensions of e-risks and other measures because aviation and tourism will be different from other sectors. They will be properly later in coming back. On further measures, for example, we have given a commitment to reduce landing charges. We are considering additional, more immediate measures that might be able to further support the industry in the short term through this difficult winter and into the new year. I cannot share the details of that now. The budget allocations for that may come from Covid contingency funds rather than from our departmental budget. Therefore, it may not directly affect our Estimates process.

With regard to the MICB, the Deputy is correct. Captain Clinch conducted that report. The Department tendered in March for a broad review of the structures of the board. The report was presented in July and my Department is going through its findings and preparing to engage in assessing and implementing the recommendations we see as being appropriate.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister publish that document?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is intended to do so but the Department has to conclude its analysis of it first. Once that has been completed and we are satisfied it is the right time to do it, we will do it. I do not see it being a long drawn-out process.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Can the Minister give a timeframe for it?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I imagine it will be within weeks or months rather than any longer than that. It is something we want to proceed with. I am not aware of the draft legislation from 2010. I will have to come back to the Deputy on that having consulted the Department on it. As that legislation was published in 2010, I will have to review it to see how it fits in within the recommendations of the report, and I will commit to doing that.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Will the Minister also publish that? Will he give me an answer on that?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Yes. As I said, I was not aware of it until the Deputy raised it here. I will check to see where it is at within the Department and, if it can be published in conjunction with the report, certainly, I will seek to do that.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for that.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Finally, with regard to the Ennis-Limerick railway line and the frequent flooding problems, it is interesting the Deputy mentioned that because it was raised at another event. I was glad to open an exhibition for the Geological Survey of Ireland earlier this week. It is a brilliant exhibition in Collins Barracks, which I would recommend anyone to visit. One of the exhibits relates to that section of line around Ballycar. I have seen the specific report but I will look for it now. I presume, having looked at the site and knowing something about the problems there, an elevation of the line might be the preferred solution.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Five solutions have been put forward and option two recommended. The raising of the line was done previously but that has failed. This is a comprehensive report. It points to option two, which is costed at €16.5 million. It is important work gets under way as soon as possible to appoint consultants and work through the various different processes. The Geological Survey of Ireland was part of that working group. I am delighted it has raised its work on this with the Minister.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Minister to conclude.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I will look at those five options, specifically option two, and come back to the Deputy directly on it.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister for that. I call Deputy O’Rourke. I propose we stick to the ten-minute time slots. Depending on the number of members who contribute, we may be able to have a second round of questions.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for attending. I might put direct questions to the him and get his response to them and then I will made a broader point. Under subhead B3.5, I note there was an overspend of €39 million in the local and regional roads grants. Will that overrun have to come off the 2022 allocation or how will it be budgeted for? Will that overspend this year impact on next year's allocation?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Does the Deputy want me to reply to that question now?

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, that would be best.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The officials have pointed out these are mid-term Estimates and we are not at the conclusion of the year. Often certain expenditure items could be either under or over the allocation but by the end of the year there will be a Supplementary Estimate or a reallocation for other Departments. Typically, in the case of the roads budget, much of the local roads maintenance is done regularly. It tends to be weather-affected and there can be variations depending on flooding or whatever.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine.

On public-private partnership, PPP, payments, under subhead 3.4, with respect to Covid and tolls, there are contacts for a road to Limerick Port and a road beside me, the M3, that were liable to be underused. Does the Minister know how much, if at all, that has been affected so far this year?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I would make two points. The Deputy is correct. The Limerick road is a good example of where there are various conditions in the contract whereby, for example, if another bridge was built across the River Shannon, the contractor would have to be compensated That is an example of a contract with compensation measures. Regarding the toll system and revenues for those projects, the revenue accrues directly to TII. While the Department would have an oversight of the overall budget, we do not have the underspend to date in our Estimates information. I presume because of lower transport numbers due to Covid, there will be a loss of certain revenue but the traffic volumes are pretty much back to the pre-Covid level.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. Is it the case they are not budgeted for in these Estimates but they would be in the annual budget?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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TII administers and manages the budget.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Clearly, it would have to get approval from the Government for the make-up of its budget. Therefore, it would come back to the Department.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It would, but it manages the day-to-day collection and----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I accept that, but the question Deputy O'Rourke asked is that at some point in time it can only pay out that money having sought approval from the Department. Is that reasonable?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Yes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Has the Minister that figure at his disposal?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I do not have the data here. We will have to contact TII and ask for it specifically. We are dealing with the mid-term but it should be able to provide it.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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There is significant interest in the MetroLink project, which I will also touch on later and which the Minister referenced in his opening statement I am trying to understand what is happening about it. There is a delay in progressing it but it has been presented as if it is not a delay and that it is just going through the decision-making gates.

The review of the NDP, as I understand, is to be published on Monday. The MetroLink target completion date is 2027 in the current NDP. On the online facility, which is interactive and useful, the completion date is quarter 4 of 2028. What will be the completion date in the NDP review that is to be published?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The MetroLink, along with the other mega transport projects in Dublin, is on track, and we can talk about the other cities separately. Nevertheless, they have to go through that gate process. We have all seen - we can take the children's hospital as one example - that if we do not get the planning and the procurement process right in the early stages, there may be significant overspend at later stages. The first draft business case has been presented by TII to my Department. Under the new spending code, in respect of mega public transport projects-----

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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To be fair, my specific question was about the date. I appreciate what-----

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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If I could just finish my point, I might come to the Deputy's question. We have to bring in both international experts and the Department of Finance to examine that business case before it goes to the Government. As I said earlier, I expect that then to go to a Government decision to get through this gate level, that is, the critical Government approval in principle. That will then allow TII to present the railway order, which will go to planning early next year. As for timelines, it is difficult to tell people which specific year it will be. It depends first and foremost on how quickly it gets through planning-----

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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There is going to be a target completion date in whatever document is published next week. Is that not the case?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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No, there will not be. It is not a question just of how long it takes to go through planning but also of whether there are revisions to the proposed outline of the project, which could in themselves affect the timeline of the construction of the project.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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That answers my question. There will not be a target, which I see as a step backwards rather than forwards. It will be frustrating for people not to have even a date to work towards.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We will have that date when we get through the planning system because we will then have much greater certainty in respect of what the project involves. To give a date in advance of that, when we do not know the final design of the project, might be nice and, politically, it would be lovely to announce a date but it would not be honest or straight-----

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. The people in the area in question have been looking at dates for 20 years. In fairness to them, it is not an unreasonable ask.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What has changed between the existing NDP, which had a completion date of 2027, and the date that has been mooted in the media as 2034. The Minister spoke about the guidelines in the review. Has the Department brought in different ways of assessing projects? Is it due to the national investment framework for transport in Ireland, NIFTI, that the way in which projects are assessed is changing such that they are reviewed under completely different parameters? Is that the reason for the delay?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I would not like to state that the project's completion date is 2034-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That is what the media are reporting.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Yes, but that media reporting is not necessarily accurate or based on anything other than-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Minister will appreciate, however, that everyone needs a target date. It is as though someone saying he or she will build a house without saying when because that depends on planning, and someone then-----

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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There must be a range, at least.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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There is an evolution and it is coming from looking at large-scale projects-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is the delay because the basis under which projects are assessed has changed?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The broad public procurement process system has changed, particularly for mega projects worth more than €1 billion. We have learned lessons-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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When was that change?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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In 2019, the public spending code changed for all large public projects. That was after the publication of the previous NDP.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Apart from that, has there been a change in the way the Department assesses projects? This project clearly went through certain processes. Has it now gone back to square one?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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No, the opposite is true. It is going to greater detail at earlier stages in order that we will avoid finding, in the middle of a construction process, that matters keep changing. The new public spending code seeks to bring forward much of the assessment that might previously not have been done. In some ways, that could be frustrating because it takes time, but the public is better served than by saying, "Ah sure, we will go ahead, there is no problem and it will all be done within this time", and then finding out, because the basics have not been done-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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In layman's terms, what different assessments will be brought forward?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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On the public transport side, a team of three international experts is examining each of these mega projects and running the rule over them. We have also brought in international consultants, connected very much with the European funding and with expertise in the area, to similarly assess the business case and advise the Department. This gate process we are going through in respect of decision-making was outlined in that introduction of a public spending code of 2019. There are significant changes to the entire process.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It is frustrating for the public to hear this.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I can understand that, but the public would also be deeply frustrated if we did not learn lessons from large public projects of the past that resulted in massive overruns and delays in construction. A timeline could have been given for the delivery of the national children's hospital, for example, but it keeps being delayed. An exact start time could have been announced three or four years ago but we would then find three or four years later that it was not. We are better off being honest and upfront and getting the planning process right in order that we can avoid that sort of elongation of timelines once we get into the building phase. That will not be the case for this project because a much more detailed assessment will have been carried out in advance.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I will allow Deputy O'Rourke some additional time.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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The Chairman's was the line of inquiry I was going to pursue myself. It sits within the context this year of a projected underspend at this stage of €247 million in the Department. Communities and transport sector workers throughout the country are to the pin of their collar, whether they are in DAA, Aer Lingus or Dublin Bus. They look at their industry and are concerned for their own futures. There are areas crying out for the types of infrastructure and services the Minister says he wants to deliver, but we are facing a massive underspend. I appreciate there are significant additional funding needs and Covid is a challenge, but is there a commitment that that funding of €247 million that will be underspent will be made available again next year? Will it be repurposed or assigned to the same projects as this year? What were the challenges? Was it just Covid or were there other challenges, such as the workforce or the supply chain, that meant it was difficult to spend the money? Will he be able to spend it next year? Will there be an opportunity to direct it towards major capital projects such as MetroLink, the Navan rail line or the western rail corridor, that is, communities crying out for these services?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I would much rather spend the entire budget but Covid, in particular, has had a significant effect on the likes of the NBP, where we have had difficulty, as in many other areas, bringing in key contractors, along with other elements that delayed it. In the area of sustainable travel, we took a conservative approach. Certain projects did not proceed through the first quarter of the year because the advice was not to have workers in the construction sector, other than in certain critical areas, out working. It could be argued we should have taken a different political call on that but the decision was to take a cautious approach in regard to Covid.

A significant element of spending this year was a carryover from the previous budget. The truth is, in both Departments, there has been a massive ramp-up in spending, with significant increases year on year, and there will be again next year. It can take time for the agencies and authorities to manage that and help deliver it. I expect to be able to carry over the funding and the spending in areas where there is an underspend will be spent in those areas, so it will not be lost. There will be catch-up, particularly in respect of the NBP and the greenways, two areas of underspend.

There are other factors. In the area of sustainable travel, as everyone will be aware, there are significant issues relating to judicial reviews and the planning system delaying many works we might want to see advance.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister expect to be able to spend the money next year?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Yes.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Is he satisfied that the local and authorities and agencies are starting to scale up?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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What the Deputy said is true. There is a huge appetite for spending in these areas by councils right across the country. Local authorities will be key. If I take anything as a sign of hope, the decision last Monday night in Galway to proceed with what was a controversial and difficult project by 17 votes to one gives me confidence that local authorities are keen to do this. People will be clamour for money rather than us being faced with an underspend.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I might come back in on this again. Next Monday when people see the NDP document, I expect that what they will do is compare it to the previous NDP document. They will look for their project and their completion date. It sounds like it will be a different animal. What can people expect to see? What should they look for? There were concerns, which the Minister has heard, especially about road projects being deprioritised or not going to happen at all. What can people expect from the NDP on Monday and how will it compare to previous plans? How does the Minister think they should look at it?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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There is continuity, because central to it is meeting the objectives of the national planning framework of better balanced regional development, compact development and low-carbon development, and that carries through. That is important because we could get fixated on the major Dublin transport projects and we must invest in Cork, Galway, Waterford, Limerick and in towns across the country as well.

The NDP is not finalised yet. We are still dotting the i's and crossing the t's. Rather than having a white list or a green list where anything in the box is definitely going to be built and anything outside it is gone, it is better to set out broad strategic objectives and broad budget outlines and to give the agencies and councils incentives to get good value for money, to speedily develop projects and to bring costs down. Sometimes when something is put in a white box, that gives everyone the signal that because it is a commitment it does not matter what it costs. There will be a commitment in the transport and communications sectors to maintain the exact sequencing. To a certain extent, it depends on which ones come through the planning first and which ones local councils support to be able to deliver in a cost-competitive way. It is appropriate that we have some tension or cost competition, in particular between cities on the transport side, so that we get good value for the money we spend. That is part of the reason the new approach is a better one.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister and his team. I have a number of points to raise, and I hope I can go through them with him and have an exchange of views.

I join others in congratulating Pádraig Ó Céidigh on taking up his role as chairman of the Shannon Group. It is a very positive appointment. We finally have someone who understands aviation. There are many fine businesspeople in the mid-west, but one does not necessarily need an agribusiness or economics degree to run an airport and all the catalyst activity it stimulates. Aviation is needed, as is someone with a knowledge of the west, and we are ticking both boxes with that appointment. I say well done to the Minister on appointing him and I wish Pádraig Ó Céidigh well.

The new chairman should be given a slightly adjusted role for the next few months given the current turbulent time in aviation. Shannon is positioned to recover, but it is crucial that it is done in the right way. Mr. Ó Céidigh should be given some form of executive role in the coming months so that he is not just chairing board meetings, but is on-site in the airport and working in tandem with Mary Considine. I urge the Minister to look at that because Mr. Ó Céidigh is answerable to him. Following the meeting the Minister might communicate to the board that he would like him to be hands-on for the coming months as he begins his tenure.

On the same matter, when does the board of the Shannon Group expire? The Minister might not know the answer. There are many fine individuals but, as I stated, agribusiness, economics degrees and financial backgrounds are not what we are about; we want aviation people. A shake-up of the make-up of the board is required rather than getting rid of everyone. That would be positive.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I agree with the Deputy that Pádraig Ó Céidigh has great knowledge of aviation and a real regional interest. However, I will be upfront in that I do not agree with the point about the role of the chairman. It is a chairing role. We have a good CEO.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, I agree.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We have a good executive. The chair is a critical function, but we must be careful that we do not confuse things and get in the way of the existing management structures. Pádraig Ó Céidigh has a good vision and a real understanding of the industry and he will bring real benefit, but it is in a chairing, non-executive role rather than in an executive role. I respectfully disagree with the Deputy on that. Otherwise, there would be real confusion and that does not work well. There is a good reason for the separation of the board and the executive. The role of the board is to oversee the executive and to support it, but not to become the executive.

None of the board memberships expire at the same time. We try to rotate members on an ongoing basis so that experience is retained. Typically, one or two board members a year come up for reappointment. I do not have the schedule of appointments here, but we will continue to appoint new people.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Within the region and among those who work in aviation, there is an appetite among the big stakeholders for a shake-up of the board. To be clear, I commend and compliment what Mary Considine is doing as chief executive, but sometimes a few new players can help to reinvigorate a board. I am sure Pádraig Ó Céidigh and Mary Considine will complement each other. My point is just about the make-up of the board. There needs to be an incisive aviation outlook in the coming months. We need Shannon to get back to the point of recovery. It was in a state of decline long before Covid hit.

Shannon Heritage falls under the Minister's remit currently because it is an entity of the Shannon Group. Bizarrely, there is again talk of closing iconic sites in the mid-west such as Bunratty Castle and folk park and King John's Castle. What we have is a takeover process. It was a very good decision by the Government. The running of these sites will transfer from Shannon Heritage to local authorities. The date of 31 December was set as a target for all due diligence to conclude and for the formal sign-over to take place, meaning from 1 January, the local authorities of Clare County Council and Limerick City and County Council would take over the sites. These matters are complex, but it now looks like the takeover might not happen until March. Shannon Heritage is looking at closing the sites again in the period from 1 January until March. That has been communicated to workers. It has also been intimated to workers that the company will no longer draw down the employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS, and Government supports. That is illogical. It lacks strategic outlook and is short-sighted. The company is also turning down corporate bookings. I accept that the Minister cannot have oversight of everything, but could he please ensure that any backlogs that might come down the line in this all-important transfer are expedited? I accept it is not his line Ministry but unless I am totally missing the point, there is something wrong here. The EWSS is a flat-rate support that is calculated on how many part-time, full-time and seasonal staff a company has and it is a support the Government gave to entities to ensure that people were not laid off, made redundant and put on unemployment benefit. In the case of Shannon Heritage, the EWSS has been availed of but workers are being left on part-time and reduced hours. All I ask is that the Minister would do everything he can at ministerial level to expedite whatever loose ends remain with the Department.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I think the issue is now mostly the responsibility of the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. I will talk to him. My understanding is that the function had transferred. I cannot imagine there is a reason for delay within the Department of Transport because our view is that it is an appropriate realignment of responsibilities. I will check with him and see.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. Regarding aviation overall, there is a need for a number of interventions. It is going to be one of the last sectors to experience a post-Covid recovery. A number of interventions have been made. Fianna Fáil was very respectful of the coalition of parties in government but there is also delineation between parties. We put forward a submission paper with some policy suggestions for the Minister, with respect to his Ministry, which I hope can be considered. They include multi-annual capital expenditure on airports. It was very good to see the baggage hold facilities in Shannon upgraded. Another suggestion was a subvention on a per-passenger basis in the coming years, to the point of recovery.

Other colleagues have, and will, mention the need for regional connectivity. I met recently with the Saudi Arabian ambassador, where we discussed the potential of hub connectivity from Shannon into Riyadh. What plans, if any, does the Minister have for the airport and aviation overall in terms of how they will be supported in the upcoming budget and over the recovery period, which will take some time?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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As I said earlier, there is an immediate issue in terms of supports for our aviation industry and, by dint of that, our tourism industry. Much of that funding will come from emergency Covid-type supports. We are looking at that. In the more medium term, we want our aviation industry to thrive, but there are different spending and policy priorities in the Estimates. Deputies, including Deputy Crowe, rightly, lobby me in regard to local bus services in County Clare or investment in broadband or other services. When it comes to spending, we have limited budgets.

To be clear, prior to Covid our aviation industry was booming. Passenger numbers had increased massively. Shannon Airport had not grown as fast as Dublin Airport, which is a big regional issue, but the main reason for that is the two-hour journey time on the motorway between Limerick and Dublin which brings passengers and bus companies to Dublin Airport. Overall, the industry was in significant health. In particular, Aer Lingus had significantly expanded its business in the north Atlantic, where it operates to approximately ten different locations. While much of that was going to Dublin Airport versus Shannon Airport, Shannon Airport was also growing, as was Cork Airport. It was not an industry in crisis before this crash; far from it. The benefit of it coming back is that it will show that other industries are coming back. As a country, we need connectivity.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the Minister that the growth needs to be regionally balanced. He signed off on the Limerick northern distributor road project at the start of this year. It is making huge headway, as the Chairman can attest to. It straddles both of our constituencies. It is a shining light in what has been a few dull months nationally and in the mid-west. It is a major infrastructural project under way in a part of counties Clare and Limerick where thousands of people are seeing this progress daily. It starts in Coonagh and ends in Knockalisheen, which is in my home parish of Meelick. The cartoon "Road Runner", in which Road Runner is chased out of town by Wile E. Coyote on a road that is going nowhere and so the only choice is to drop off the edge, comes to mind in that as things stand we are at risk of the Limerick northern distributor becoming such a road because when it reaches Knockalisheen there will be a roundabout and that is it. There is a phase 2. As the Chairman will know, I have had issues with the routing of phase 2. I am still not happy with it. Many of the communities are also not happy with it. Those living along the route are being almost held to ransom, knowing that a road is coming but wondering when will it happen. People further out cannot wait for this to happen. We need certainty in regard to phase 2. It cannot be left in limbo forever. Phase 1 is being built and will be completed. For better or worse, phase 2 needs to happen, offering the full suite of connectivity from Coonagh to Knockalisheen, Parteen, Clonlara and out to the Dublin Road in Limerick. Those attending Limerick Institute of Technology, LIT, and people from the suburbs of north Limerick city and Clare face daily traffic congestion. There have many local squabbles regarding whether the road should be extended 100 m here or there. We got entrenched in that but communities and the people of counties Clare and Limerick want certainty about phase 2. We hope it will be included in the NDP to be announced next Monday. I ask the Minister to comment on how he sees phase 2 developing.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I will reiterate what I said to the Limerick city manager in our discussions on the Coonagh to Knockalisheen project and in my earlier response to Deputy Carey. This is influenced by the fact that if we were to proceed with phase 2 and complete along the alignment suggested, that would drawdown a €200 million compensation requirement for us to pay the contractors of the existing tunnel under the River Shannon. There is a contract arrangement to the effect that should a second northern distributor road be built compensation of the order of €200 million would be paid. I asked the Limerick city manager if the council had the money whether it would pay that. He did not answer, but I do not believe it would, and I do not believe we should. I would like to see that €200 million spent on the development of a metropolitan rail link, starting with a station in Moyross, which would be within a short walking distance of Thomond Park and would give people access to LIT and open up hundreds of acres of land owned by the public service, which could be a solution to housing problems for thousands of young people in Limerick and across the country. The first priority is a railway station in Moyross.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We want to see a park-and-ride facility near Thomond Park, or a light rail system. It would be fabulous.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I am speaking of a railway station on the existing rail line.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It would be heavy rail.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It would be fantastic. There is significant buy-in for it. I have made a submission in support of it. It is great to hear the Minister's views on it. My concern is the project includes a roundabout, 3 km of dual carriageway and another roundabout. On reaching Meelick, traffic will leave the road in small lanes heading towards minor country roads. We cannot have a situation where phase 1 is completed, but phase 2 is not happening and everyone along the route is left in limbo for another protracted five or six years or however long it takes for this to come back on the agenda. In that context, it needs to remain in discourse. As I said, this cannot be the Road Runner-Wile E. Coyote road whereby having passed Moyross the road runs out to the end of Meelick and then ends. We need that onward connectivity. I am sure the Chairman will say similar in a while.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I will make a second point because this is critical. Another point I made to the Limerick city manager, on which we agreed and I hope the Deputy will support, is that in building the Coonagh-Knockalisheen road it is critical that at the same time we start to build the BusConnects in Limerick and the cycling routes in Limerick, which would transform the city from the University of Limerick to LIT and out to Mary Immaculate College on the other side of the city as well as the key BusConnects corridors that would connect Moyross to the city and connect through the city. That is vital.

The third key point is we have to take down the walls that surround Moyross, which close it off from neighbouring estates, so that we get improved pedestrian access and improved access to schools and workplaces and other facilities. The first thing we need to do in Limerick is build the pedestrian, cycling and bus facilities that will see that area of the city thrive. That is where my focus will be in terms of delivery.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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In the time available to me, I want to engage over and back with the Minister. There are a couple of points I want to deal with. The completion of MetroLink is referenced in the NDP to be 2028, but in the media, and on the website 2034 and quarter 4, 2028 respectively, are referenced. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, has responsibility for the Department of Transport. Could MetroLink be built before 2028? When completed, projects are available for public use. In many cases, they are factors in the decisions of families and single people around where to purchase a home and where children might go to school. The Minister referenced city living as being key that. Knowing what he does, when does he expect MetroLink to commence?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I would love to see it started in the next year or two. I will give my experience here. I have been involved in the Dublin metro project dating back to 1997. I was a member of the advisory committee of the then Dublin Transportation Office, which started in 1997 and by 1999 had a clear plan and a brilliant model to show that it did make sense. A Platform for Change was the then plan.

Then the engineers on the advisory council told us that whatever we do we should build the metro first before we widen the M50. We widened the M50 first. By 2008 or 2009 it was back on track. I was in government at the time and I was particularly interested in the project given my history. Even though we were in the middle of the worst recession that ever hit the country and the budget was difficult, we made a commitment towards it. We included it in the four-year plan in 2010 in the middle of the crisis. We secured €500 million in European Investment Bank funding. If only we had built it at that time it would be operating now. It would be up and running. The reason we did not was it was delayed in planning. If I recall rightly, there was an archaeological issue. To be perfectly honest I did not think it was significant. That one issue held it up in planning and in a legal challenge for approximately two or three years. I am going on memory. In that time there was a change of government. The new Government came in and took it out of the four-year plan and it did not proceed. The planning delay killed it. I have direct personal experience. I hate to come back to always answering this question by saying it depends on how long it takes us to get through planning but this is from direct experience of a similar project, which was ready to go and which we would have built for a fraction of what it will cost us in the end but it was delayed in planning and a legal challenge.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Why has the Minister come out now and said the 2028 deadline may no longer be achievable?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Because I am looking at the draft business study and the estimated time it may take to get through planning and then construction. The understanding of exactly-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What is the plan telling the Minister?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The construction time will depend on the outcome of the planning process. There will be options in it, I expect.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Approximately when does the Minister anticipate will be the earliest date based on the business proposal put forward for the Dublin metro?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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If everything went through planning in weeks, or within a short, tight timeframe, 2028 could be deliverable. It would depend on the final project design, which we will not know until after planning. I expect it will be later than that, being upfront and honest.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How long?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I do not have the exact figure.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is able to say if it goes through planning, it will be 2028. He is not being held to it but the public is entitled to some indication of a timeframe.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I would expect it to be later than that.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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How much later?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It will be between then and 2034. I do not expect it to run that late. It will depend on planning.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That is fair. To go back to Shannon, I am a Deputy for Limerick and the mid-west. I welcome the appointment of Pádraig Ó Céidigh. He will add something to the management and the board of Shannon Group. There are three strategic routes for Shannon. These are Heathrow and the two main transatlantic routes of Boston and New York. Philadelphia and others are important but these three are key. These three routes are flown by Aer Lingus and we very much welcome that the Heathrow route is back. We would like to ensure it continues, running in tandem with Cork and Dublin. We would like to alter the time so it is more appropriate and better for people. What does the Minister see in terms of government supports for Aer Lingus to re-establish strategic routes? It is not just about the airport for us in the mid-west. The airport has enabled us as a region to have exponentially large amounts of foreign direct investment above what should be the norm based on our size. There are large employers and connectivity out of Shannon is vital. What does the Minister say about providing supports to airlines such as Aer Lingus or to the airport? What does he see as the timeframe for this?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We have provided a lot of support directly to the airports and airlines in terms of-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Specifically to re-establish these strategic routes as quickly as possible.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Not to discount them, and they are important, the EWSS support-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I accept that and I acknowledge it.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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If I can continue, there is Ireland Strategic Investment Fund funding and significant borrowing capability for Aer Lingus in particular, as well as the rebates and certain landing charges. We left it to the airports to be able to allocate and decide upon them on a strategic basis. We will look at coming back to these to enhance them and go further. It is very welcome in particular that Aer Lingus is back at Shannon flying to Heathrow. I agree fully with the Chair that one flight a day is not sufficient. Previously there were three flights a day.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We need an early morning flight. There are issues. Aer Lingus is key to Shannon Airport.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Connection to Heathrow is key as is an early morning flight. I agree with the Chair on the future of the airline to support business development in the area. To reflect on this, my understanding is that the Shannon Group is doing well. The estate itself, from my sense of it and looking at the balance sheet-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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A model was put in place that provides property-side support. However, when we look outside the airport itself, the airport is key for connectivity and that is the question.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The airport complements the property side.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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They cross over and benefit each other. My view as we come out of the immediate crisis is, and I would say this because it is where I come from, that we should position ourselves. If I were to advise Aer Lingus directly, I would say it should position itself as a low-carbon carrier across the Atlantic. Even though the differences are marginal. There is the model Aer Lingus was using whereby the type of-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am not-----

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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If I can just finish this point because it is important. I understand that for transatlantic flights some people might have bet on the large aircraft with multi-engines and two tiers.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Apparently they are not as efficient or working out as well for long haul. The model Aer Lingus was pursuing with twin engine-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Neo.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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-----is a more efficient model.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is not just better for emissions it is also more cost competitive. Whether it is Dublin Airport or Shannon Airport, the ability for us to position ourselves in this way as a hub for transatlantic traffic using twin engine, lower emission and lower cost vehicles is where the strategic opportunity for us.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Will there be support from the Government to enable the likes of Aer Lingus to re-establish these key strategic routes for balanced regional development in Ireland? The Heathrow route is very welcome. To expand the service there is a facility in Europe to support routes if passenger numbers are fewer than 3 million. I am looking at Boston and New York. Will the Minister take this on board? It is hugely important.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I will. We looked at this in real depth throughout the crisis. Last week, air travel was 50% of what it was prior to Covid. It is still in crisis and there is no two ways about it. During this crisis we looked at all options. When we say we will support a specific route, we run into European state aid rules. There are rules on what we can do and what is described as a PSO route. We are in a competitive market. There is also Ryanair, which has brought some of its fleet back into-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We are unusual in the Shannon and western region. Shannon has been a catalyst for us to be able to build a large infrastructure through foreign direct investment from the US. It provides thousands of jobs. We must have the vital connectivity to maintain this. I would like to leave it that the Minister is looking at it. I understand he has difficulties. Nevertheless, we need it. Shannon is up and running and Ryanair is coming in, which is great. Aer Lingus has re-established the Heathrow route. It is all positive. We just need further momentum. The Minister will take this on board and he is looking at it.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Yes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I have a quick question. My colleague made reference to Shannon Heritage. Many of the sites are doing well. King John's Castle has better figures at present than it did prior to Covid. There is a positive and I ask that it remain open. I also have a quick question on broadband. NBI came before the committee. Is the Minister happy that by the end of next year NBI will have caught up on its programme? I know he have concessions on not meeting targets. It is a "Yes" or "No" question.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Yes. Looking at other similar exercises whereby big broadband plans are rolled out, there is often a period when all the operational issues are teased out. The first six months or the first year are delayed, but then, when it is done right - and both the Department and NBI are doing it right with local authorities - one can accelerate. The metaphor I would use is the vaccine programme. During the early stages people were saying we were behind the UK, slow and so on, but we were getting it right and then, when it mattered, we were able to accelerate and overtake the UK. The same will happen with the NBP.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I have another quick question and then one more question. We had the Minister's colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, before us last week. We have put a suggestion and written to him to the effect that each Department be required under the Estimates to outline how much is being allocated to cybersecurity. There is a general view that there is probably quite a lot more than what is going into the National Cyber Security Centre. Does the Minister favour that Departments would do that?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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That makes sense. It is something the National Cyber Security Centre would be best placed to oversee and manage.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Its job is to advise-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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There is a need to know what our global footprint is.

Finally, I will go back to the northern distributor road. What is happening at the moment, the opening up in Moyross, is hugely significant. I have always worked on that. I do not see various means of transport as mutually exclusive. The Minister made reference to the Dublin-Limerick motorway. I would like to see buses coming from Dublin to Shannon. We are such a small country that we should be looking at that model. If buses are going from the Hurlers pub in my neighbourhood, Castletroy, directly to Dublin Airport, there is no reason the reverse should not happen Once again I make that point. As for the issue of the northern distributor road itself, eventually the tunnel will come back into public ownership. I am not certain of the date; the Minister's officials will probably know. It has been there quite a number of years. I am just saying that the dynamics shift. As for the rail transport system in Limerick, the Limerick-Shannon metropolitan area transport strategy, LSMATS, when it was published initially did not have that in it. I am very supportive of it. It is a great addition. I do not see this as either-or; I think they are all complementary.

I will go back to something I have brought up previously. The NDP is going through this. The Minister knows I am great proponent of the M20. Outside of climate change or anything else, it is vital for balanced regional development. I had to drive to Donegal at the weekend. I was able to get from Limerick to Sligo with the click of a finger but when I went beyond there it took me hours. There is a motorway from Galway to Tuam and it is great. Equally, I can go from my door in Castletroy to the Red Cow roundabout in Dublin, in under two hours, yet it could take me much longer to get to Cork. The M20 is currently in the design and planning phase. Does the M20 continue with that momentum under the revised NDP that will be published next week?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We will be able to have a much better conversation about this after Monday because we will have the NDP out. I am conscious I am here to talk about the Estimates rather than anything broader. If I may, because this-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am raising this under programme B.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I do not mind at all having the discussion. There is an article in today's Irish Independentwritten by Fionnán Sheahan in which he states, correctly, that there are different views on this, so we will put it that way.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That is why we have a Parliament to which we are elected.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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That is politics.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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That is healthy.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Let us have that chat then.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I will say why I believe the investment in bypasses will be critical. I will give two examples. We have loads of roads projects in planning all over the country, and if we built all of them, we would not have money for anything else. They would soak up the entire budget, and even then we would not have enough. We have to prioritise and allocate limited resources. As for bypasses, the Chairman will not disagree with me on this. The Ryder Cup is coming to Adare in 2026, I think, is it?

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We need the Adare bypass.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We will win the Ryder Cup this time.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We would want to. Well, we would certainly want improvement.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The bypass is vital.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Adare is clogged, and everyone knows it. It is a beautiful village with beautiful facilities that we have to protect. I will give an even more important immediate example. The Chairman said earlier that Limerick is a large industrial development centre for the country, which is true. Significant industrial output comes out of Limerick. Most of it heads on the road out to Cahir and down to Waterford Port.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We can debate that.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Large numbers of trucks head out. They all run through Tipperary town, and there are Deputies from Tipperary who rightly say that that is killing that town, that 30% of the shops are vacant and that the people living in the town are dominated by trucks coming through.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I have limited time. I am not disagreeing. The point I am making is that these are not mutually exclusive. Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow need to be bypassed.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I agree.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Equally, the N20 is highly dangerous, and many of the businesses we have in Limerick are also based in Cork. I believe that if we want to be grown up about balanced regional development, outside of anything to do with climate change or anything else, we must link the two largest cities outside of Dublin, namely Cork and Limerick, where there is a counter-pole from all down along the western seaboard to Dublin. The point is that by doing so the bypasses, which are required, are also getting done but they are not mutually exclusive. The original M20 project incorporated the bypass of Adare. However, that particular project did not proceed. The M20 is now back on track. In the interim, the N69 bypass of Adare is going through, and that brings the added benefit of linking Foynes Port to Limerick city. I see them as very much an integrated model. I ask the Minister to go back to the M20.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I will come back to it. The rail link to Foynes is first because we will, I hope, have another major quarry or mining development in the region.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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They are not mutually exclusive. That is my point.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We are not going to truck everything through the towns such as Adare or elsewhere. It is best to put it on rail freight. Second, I will say to the Chairman the same thing I would say to the people in Tipperary. The plan for Tipperary is to expand from Cahir to Limerick Junction, and TII is looking at that. One of the potential solutions is to do the bypass first. I am not saying the upgrade of the full road from Cahir to Limerick Junction will not be done but rather that, in the same way we did the Cashel bypass, the design can be such that the bypass is put in first and, subsequently, subject to availability of funding, the road can be upgraded. The same approach, I would argue-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The M20, to me, is very simple. It is currently in the planning and design phase, which involves a motorway and the bypasses of Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow. Under the NDP, will it be allowed to continue with that process?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The review of that is looking at all options, including, I understand, rail options between Cork and Limerick.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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No. There is a process under way at the minute. Will that process be allowed to continue under the NDP when it is announced next week?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We are not going in and saying "this project is gone" and "that project is in" because that would not be appropriate. I-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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No. My question is a direct one. Will the process that is under way whereby TII is pairing, reviewing and looking at various design options, which include both rail and road on the M20, be allowed to continue to do its work under the new NDP? Both a motorway and bypasses are being dealt with. I am not-----

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Going back to what I said at the beginning of this hearing, when the Chairman asked what the difference is between this NDP and the previous one, the key thing in this NDP has to be delivery of the national planning framework, balanced regional development, compact development and low-carbon development. It is absolutely essential that we develop Cork and Limerick and connections between them and we make our road network safe. As to how we best prioritise what will be a limited budget, it must be remembered that there is a real issue here. We have major cost inflation-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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No, no.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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-----of big infrastructure. There is only a limited funding-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I have a very direct question. I need the Minister to answer it. A process has been ongoing for the past two or three years to examine the M20 project and consider both road and rail. It went out for public consultation, has now come back in for review and will be due to go back out again. Will that be allowed to continue?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I do not expect that to be finished. It has to be done. We have to look at the rail options as well as the road options.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I accept that. All I want is an assurance from the Government that the M20 project currently under way - the project rather than the final destination - is allowed to continue.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I expect it would, but all projects and the decisions around them have to be in the context of prioritising balanced regional development, compact development and low carbon development.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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For me, the M20 is at the front and centre of regional development. I thank the Minister. I call Deputy Ó Murchú and I thank him for his forbearance.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is all right. I may have to run at some point in which case, unfortunately for everyone, I might actually come back. When the Minister talked about the importance of bypasses, I assumed he would go straight on to deal with the Ardee bypass. I was deeply disappointed when he did not.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is on a home run.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister has mentioned some of the planning issues. We need to look at the system and we need to look at resourcing it at every point. Some of this does not necessarily relate to the Minister's Department, but any of us who have ever gone through development plans, or even been sideways involved with them, are all aware that there is a scenario, let us say, of the Office of the Planning Regulator, OPR, the council and planners existing here and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, or whatever else, existing there. There is not necessarily proper, joined-up thinking. That is before even getting into the specifics of rural housing or whatever. It is a particular issue. We have all experienced hold-ups where the full conversations were not had.

I will follow on from where the Chair finished on NBI. Some of the issues are not necessarily budgetary. NBI's representatives said to us, and I will welcome the Minister's view on it, that they now have a seven-year plan in place, taking into account delays due to the Covid pandemic. They are looking at having a better plan, within the next six to nine months, on how that part of it, first of all, could be caught up on; they are talking about 2023 or 2024 for that. Within that same period there is the wider issue of acceleration, which is necessary, in that what is in years six and seven would be put into years four and five. If that happens, and NBI puts a plan together whereby it is expecting everything will be done on a contractual basis with ESB, Eir and all the necessary players, its fear is whether resources at planning and engineering level will be dedicated to it within local authorities, accepting that the section 254 guidelines have been updated or whatever. Is the Minister reasonably happy that this will be done and that the conversations will have taken place to deliver that resource and to make sure this can happen?

The other question I will throw to him and, again, I know it is slightly off the subject matter we are dealing with, is that now we can see the people who will be in year four-five as opposed to year six-seven, we need a little due diligence in offering them interim alternatives that are available. An element of due diligence will have to be done by the State, even if it is only engagement with companies and operators that are delivering these possible solutions.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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In the mid-term Estimates we are looking back somewhat into this year. What the Deputy is discussing is, in a sense, part of the budget discussions for next year and they have not concluded yet. Our bilateral discussion with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Michael McGrath, has yet to happen. It will happen in the next few days. We will look for the resources we will need to truncate the seven-year plan to a five years. That is one element of it. The Deputy has put his finger on the key areas we need to work within. My sense of what has happened this year, especially with local authorities, is that instead of ironing out some of those teething problems, local authorities have really helped. It varies but local authorities have helped with some of the technical stuff, even around getting the poles in place and the wires through.

Eir is also a critical part of that. There are both challenges and opportunities. The challenges include the fact that some of the ducting used is not as clear or easy to use as had been hoped but, on the other hand, my sense from talking to Eir and listening to the project team is that there has been real co-operation and a willingness to accelerate.

The point the Deputy made about counties in particular areas that are towards the latter end of the process is a very good one. The Department is specifically looking at other mechanisms where we would not leave them, in a sense, to the last. It is looking at other mechanisms whereby we can overcome the characteristic geography or topography of an area, which is why those counties, in particular, are coming in later. My recollection is the Department is specifically looking at whether there are mechanisms whereby we can mix that up a bit. That has not concluded but it is in train.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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When the Minister says, "mix that up a bit", does that mean looking at alternatives outside the NBP?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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No. It is the same plan but trying to accelerate or bring certain areas through quicker so they are not-----

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, but we will request an element of due diligence is done on some of the alternatives, even if that includes the low earth orbit satellite systems, the alternative satellite systems or fixed wireless, which may get people through the gap. It might stop some of the particular Topical Issue debates the Minister ends up taking on this particular subject.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I look forward to that.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I would think so. It is necessary. Again, I beg forbearance for where I go on this. An Post-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should define the headings.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We are dealing with the communications section, An Post and ensuring that we can-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Deputy to get back in lane.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, but we have to deal with the specific issue of An Post getting clogged at the moment with parcels coming from Britain. We all accept this involves companies that have not done due diligence, to use an overused term of mine, as regards Brexit preparations. From 1 July, new information will have to be provided with packages and parcels. An Post warehouses seem to be full. Packages and parcels have to be sent back and it is taking considerable time. Part of the problem is the British postal operation is not filtering these out. We know of the difficulties regarding An Post and the necessity, from its point of view, of either getting more services or of looking at public service obligation or whatever. What is the Government doing on that specific issue at this point in time to expedite matters, whether it is dealing with the Brits, the European Union or even customs here, for which some would say there may be more leeway?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I mean no disrespect to the Chair, but getting back in lane is tricky because the lane I am looking at is what the UK Government is doing about its postal services. I am not too sure how that relates to the Estimates.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I know it does. I believe that-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Not to labour a political point, but the Deputy should also talk to his colleagues in the North on this particular issue.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No. I am looking at this issue because I asked the Taoiseach about it previously and got a general answer. All I want to know is that it is in hand in government and that communications are happening with the necessary stakeholders, including customs on anything it can do, in particular. An Post are engaging but I like to think there is some sort of involvement from the Department.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I was being slightly flippant. The Deputy made a valid point. An Post has seen a dramatic and massive expansion in its parcel and packaging business. That is very much to be welcomed. The company has shown real resilience and capability. There is a continuing reduction in its traditional mail business but an expansion in new products. From talking to its representatives recently, the company is looking at all sorts of initiatives, including pick up and go and a range of options in going further with that parcel business.

I am due to go to the UK in the near future. I want to go there to talk to a variety of UK Ministers. Brexit presents such problems. The scale of the challenge it presents on the energy, communications and transport side cannot be underestimated. There is no upside. I will make it my business to-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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What does the Minister mean by, " there is no upside"?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We are an island behind an island. The more the UK is cut off, the more we are cut off.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is the supply chain and being at the end of the line.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I was at a meeting of the EU Energy Council last week. We looked at energy co-operation, which we need for energy security and decarbonisation, but the UK was not at the table.

The long-term strategic difficulties of Brexit as well as the short-term problems become more apparent by the day.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I agree. I welcome that the Minister will put this on the top of his agenda in those engagements. We need to deal with this before Christmas or we will be in absolute-----

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I welcome that notice and I will follow up to see the specifics.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that.

We have had the conversation about the NDP and the of current and capital expenditure that has not been used. That is accepting the reality of the world we live in, or have done. We all want to ensure that there will not be significant delays in major capital infrastructure projects. I will ask about two specific cross-Border projects that will not shock the Minister, one of which is the Narrow Water Bridge. On the other, are we still looking at 2026-27 for the Enterprise service between Dublin and Belfast to run on an hourly basis? I understand that the electrification programme will also be built into that.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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On the Narrow Water Bridge, this project will be led by the Department of the Taoiseach within the shared island initiative. The Deputy will see that there was draft funding within that. It is not within my Department's Estimate. My view is that the real potential development here, on both the Cooley Peninsula and on the Mournes on the other side, is particularly the development of cycling and walking traffic. They are two beautiful tourist areas and there is potential for development of such sustainable transport solutions. I am also concerned about the village of Omeath. If there is a large increase in traffic coming across from Warrenpoint, how would the village of Omeath manage? How would we cope if there was significant increased traffic on the peninsula itself? There is a risk around Carlingford and around the other side. Some of the tourist value could be lost if it becomes a much busier road. As I said, that more immediately is an issue the shared island initiative within the Department of the Taoiseach is managing.

With regard to the Enterprise, I was talking to Irish Rail recently. One of the issues coming out of Covid is significant changes in transport patterns. Remote working will change the extent of long-distance commuting. That may well allow Irish Rail, on a range of different services, introduce new services. The new InterCity railcar carriages we will get in, next year and the year after, will give additional capacity and that may give us the potential to introduce new services.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am going to be ignorant. Apologies, I need to be in the House at 2.30 p.m.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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No problem at all. I know what it is like.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will be back in a second. Unfortunately, I will revisit the matter.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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I am sorry I missed the start of the meeting. I missed various contributions. Deputy O'Rourke raised MetroLink, which I will start off with. I am sure it is no surprise to the Minister. Under subhead B6, I understand, in response to Deputy O'Rourke earlier on in the meeting, the Minister stated he hopes that the project will be completed between 2028 and 2034, and hopefully not at the latter end of that period. That is probably the most encouraging news we have heard since the now-infamous article in theMail on Sundaya week and a half ago in trying to get it delivered as early as possible. We are at the stage, the article says, where we are hoping to go for a railway order in quarter 1 of 2022. I understand that is still the case. If it goes through that procedure and a railway order is granted, which could take a couple of years, is the Minister expecting a delay between when it is granted and when it can start? Is he expecting a significant delay in that gap in the process or that, if it goes through the railway order process and permission is granted, the State would be in a position to begin MetroLink and get diggers on the ground as soon as is practical after that point?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is tricky to speak in advance of the NDP being published on Monday. There still are ongoing negotiations regarding the final arrangements in that. However, the broad agreement I have had with the Ministers, Deputies Michael McGrath and Donohoe, the party leaders and Cabinet and Government in general is that we seek to deliver all the major public transport projects that are in planning or in train. It is critical, that is not only the Dublin projects. It is critical we do Limerick rail, Cork metropolitan rail, Galway and Waterford, as well as rural bus services under Connecting Ireland. I could set out an array of basic transport projects.

My approach to the NDP was look to make sure that we progress the widest scope. It is critical to do that to help address our housing crisis and we want transport-led developments to give a signal that the housing is built where there will be public transport. With that, there are various different elements to it. In many of the rail projects, Irish Rail will be the key deliverer and it will have the ability. Going back to what I was saying about competitive tension between cities, Irish Rail will be doing DART+ in Dublin but it will also be doing metropolitan rail in Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford and-or potential other projects, such as the Navan rail line. One could pick a number of different projects which, hopefully, we will see in the greater Dublin area transport strategy, etc., that will then therefore be in train. The metro is slightly different in the sense that it is a large single project. It is much bigger than any of the others and it is one where once you start, you do not stop. If you have a tunnelling machine going you work right the way through whereas you might see the DART+, for example, start very immediately in some of the routes because these new trains I was speaking about earlier will immediately be able to fit in to commuter routes. We will have the new DART battery electric trains, which will bring significant changes, efficiencies and benefits, but it can be done on a phased basis. Metro is more a "yes-no" project. The way we are approaching the NDP is to see that we progress all those different projects.

I keep going back to it because it is the honest and correct answer. The exact starting time of each depends to a certain extent on planning and-or legal challenge. That, in truth, in the past, has been the key factor. Once we are through that, I expect to be able to press the "Go" button, subject to Government approval, Government decision-making and the Cabinet agreeing, but there is not a plan to say that then we will delay. The business case is set out-----

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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What the Minister said there is encouraging and good. The planning process is outside his control. Legal challenges are also outside his control, but for him to say if it gets through that he would hope to be in a position to press "Go" is encouraging. The people understand that there is a significant element of this outside the Minister's control. We cannot just put the JCBs on the ground next week. We have to go through the railway order and other statutory processes. What people want to know is that there is a commitment that when the gate is open we are able to move through it.

With all due respect to all those other projects which are important, and while I speak out of local concern, Deputy O'Rourke will back me up here when I say that I have sat through many committee meetings where we have had a great deal of discussion about Shannon Airport. I have not spoken about Dublin Airport too often. I have let the local Deputies have a great deal of discussion about Shannon Airport over the past year and a half. Dublin Airport is testing its second runway at present. That will come on stream soon. There will be an explosion in the number of passengers coming into Dublin Airport.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That is why we want them to come to Shannon.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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I gave the members a year of yapping about that. In all seriousness, there is no other project that is similar in scale to MetroLink and there is the demand that will be there from the second runway. New houses and apartments will be built in Swords through the Fosterstown development plan. Those householders will all have to transit out of the tow to work, school, college or whatever. That is why there has been, from me and from others, a fairly intense reaction to what we see as a step back in commitment to this project. From what the Minister said there, I take some encouragement. It would be easy for me to politically say I do not take any encouragement and this is terrible. He is still committed to it, albeit that the railway order process, the planning, the legal challenges, etc., are issues he cannot account for.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I will add to that, because it is best to be honest with people. There is also then a tendering process and that takes time. Within that, depending on the structure used, the overall budget allocation has to work. Some projects will be over two decades and that helps in managing the budget.

Some projects, and the metro may be an example, can involve a PPP element whereby some of the cost is carried over a 30- or 40-year period, or even longer. That allows the budget window to be managed more easily so that a Minister is not just constrained by whatever the ten-year capital allocation is within this particular Department. Those final details are still to be agreed and worked out. It is a moving part.

I keep going back to the work I did two decades ago. We did a detailed plan for the future needs of Dublin. I trust that original planning, which showed an underlying need for a higher capacity line to the north side. That is the case not only because of the airport but also because of those development lands, Swords and so on. There are also institutions such as Dublin City University, the Mater Hospital and so on. That underlying analysis is still accurate. I have, therefore, always been an advocate of the metro. How it is delivered, how it gets through planning and goes through a tendering process is not yet concluded. We will only know exact timelines when we get to that phase.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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Will the Minister explain the business case to the people who are watching these proceedings? In 2011, we were in the midst of economic hardship. MetroLink was paused at that time. In 2015, it was brought back onto the table and, in 2018, it was committed to. My understanding is that for the first time in the history of metro north, as it was known, it was tested against other solutions, including a DART spur from Clongriffin, a hard rail solution, a high-frequency bus service or light rail. MetroLink came out on top and was committed to as the best option. What is the difference between that analysis and its result and the analysis the Minister referred to that will have to be done by the Government in the next couple of months?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is similar analysis. I have always felt that the option of a spur from the heavy rail line along the east coast was not the optimal option because it would restrict capacity on that line. That would restrict commuter traffic from Drogheda, Balbriggan and so on. There are alternative options. The Finglas Luas could be extended to the airport. Rather than building a tunnelled solution, one could look at a light-rail solution.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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Those options were looked at and thought suboptimal in comparison with MetroLink. Are we opening that again?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We are not but one looks at it all when making a public procurement decision. The following is a rough, broad and outline analysis. A light rail option might accommodate 10,000 passengers per hour at full capacity with trams running every 90 seconds and so on. The difference with the metro option is that it is a continuous, segregated, driverless system, which could accommodate 20,000 passengers per hour. Those sorts of numbers will not be there from the start. It will take time for all that housing to be built and for numbers to build up. The exact numbers from the airport are conditional on a range of other factors. This is not just an airport metro. It is more about the development of the north side and a high quality public transport for all the neighbourhoods through which it goes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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On that note, the Minister is looking to bring a new assessment process, NIFTI. That has gone out to public consultation. Are all projects being assessed under that process as distinct from the existing strategic review process? Is that a factor in projects now?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is. It is a broad strategic approach which informs our policy.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is MetroNorth or Dublin metro now being assessed under NIFTI? Are there implications for the project? It would previously have been assessed under the existing strategic mechanism in the Department but the Minister has put forward this new mechanism that has gone out to public consultation.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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This project is probably further advanced. The use of NIFTI is more often at the strategic assessment phase. I do not see a significant change. We are at a more advanced stage. We have been looking at this for 25 years, as I said.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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The communities are well into the design phase. They have gone through a couple of phases and are engaged with TII. People are starting to believe this is going to happen. There have been ground testing works and all the rest. That is why the reaction has been so visceral this time. In the past, people did not believe it was happening. Now people believe the process is happening. I have seen the logo on the barriers for the ground testing works. They have engaged with TII multiple times on the design, right down to the position of fences, plants, trees and everything. That is where they are at, in advance of the railway order.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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There should, and will, be a certain assessment. It is the right project and I have always said that. However, there will be questions asked in times of limited resources. A metro will, in all likelihood, be very expensive. The people of Limerick might ask how this will be balanced. That will be one of the challenges. However, my sense is that the political system has come around to the view that a metro is the right strategic decision, though there may be different views. We will have to have a debate about that. We will have to discuss it when it comes through this process. The real challenge is going to be how we balance a whole range of different projects.

I come back to this competitive tension between cities, to a certain extent. On other projects, which are less stop-go, such as BusConnects, we must start looking at how we can deliver the outcomes without spending top dollar all the time. How can we get planning or local councils to make it easier for us to make some of the changes that are needed and in that way get more projects through on what is going to be a limited budget. Even with a massive expansion of the transfer budget, which will almost double, we must remember that a lot of money goes on steady state maintenance. There is a series of demands on our money.

Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal, Labour)
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Nobody wants the taxpayer to be rinsed. The Department always seems to be rinsed when it comes to large projects that cost a lot of money. The taxpayer also wants to see a top quality children's hospital. Most people who have come through Dublin Airport want to see a high-speed MetroLink and understand the rationale behind it.

On a separate note, there is evidence of the budget for what the Minister is trying to do being spent locally. I will say that, in fairness, as it relates to other projects. I am not here to roar and scream about everything all the time. We are seeing cycling infrastructure being delivered in Fingal and all the rest. It sometimes seems to be delivered quickly and some kinks need to be ironed out of the designs but people recognise there is investment in local projects. However, they also want to investment in the big transport infrastructure projects.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I concur with that. We have had projects coming through in terms of cycle lanes and various projects in the city. It is important that cities compete. It is also important that we get synergy between cities outside of Dublin. Cork, Limerick and Galway need synergies. We talk all the time about balanced regional development but all that has happened is that Dublin has got bigger. If we are serious, it is important to have a network through which we can get synergies. We need links in terms of motorways. A motorway between Limerick and Cork is the missing piece of the jigsaw. We can beg to differ on a number of issues, but such a motorway would provide bypasses and synergies in terms of traffic times, speed times and safety between cities. Those things are not mutually exclusive. I call Deputy Matthews.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I am due to be in Clondalkin at 4.30 p.m. or 4.45 p.m.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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If we get out of here by 4.10 p.m., can the Minister work with that?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I should be able to do that.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I will go back to each of the Deputies for a minute each. We can try to locate Deputy Matthews because I would like him to come in. I will start with Deputy O'Rourke.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I will ask about the potential underspend this year and the challenge of realising that spend next year. The Minister earlier touched on some of the particular challenges. A separate but related aspect is whether this issue is about reassessing for the NDP, the decision-making processes we have and how we prioritise now.

We do not have a system in place to adequately assess the challenge of road congestion. We have congestion between Kilmoon Cross and the Rath roundabout every morning. The solution presented is major road infrastructure. It seems the sufficient tools or institutional knowledge to adequately assess alternatives such as working from home, public bus transport and active travel are not available. We, therefore, end up with major roads infrastructure projects as a result. It is as if the system is designed to deliver these types of projects. Is the Government looking to change any of that in light of the new NDP?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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This is where NIFTI comes in. NIFTI is concerned with recognising, minimising and reducing demanded travel, putting active travel first, and using existing resources first and it is central. I agree with the Deputy that we need to rethink and move away from a car dominated system we built over 50 years. It will be difficult to do but that is exactly what NIFTI is concerned with.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Do the engineers and technical experts have sufficient expertise in the area?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Yes, they do. On a general point, Danny McCoy, the head of IBEC, made a speech a year and a half ago, which was seminal, but perhaps not noticed so much because it was given just before the election. He said, while our State has grown dramatically and has been hugely successful in employment and economic development, one of our difficulties of that was that the size of our State has not risen commensurate to it. There are areas with underspends or inability to deliver in a timely manner and it is often the case that we need the resources in our Departments and agencies and that the public service and its agencies need that capability. I said in advance of last year's budget, and as I will probably say tomorrow in negotiations with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, that we need current investment in our State capabilities to help deliver the infrastructure. We are probably the largest capital spending Department along with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. We need the current resources to help deliver that.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Where is NIFTI at present?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Sitting comfortably in Lesson Lane.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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When is it going to Cabinet for approval?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I must come back to the Chair on that. My understanding is that it went to Cabinet earlier in the year, but I will have to check that.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It came before us on the committee and a public consultation process was to be carried out. Similar to the strategic review, it was due to go to Cabinet for approval. If projects are being assessed under it, I want to confirm that it is Government policy.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is due to be brought to Cabinet before the end of the year.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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That is good. Are projects currently being assessed under NIFTI even though it has not been approved by Cabinet yet?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Yes, the Department must assess all projects on an ongoing basis.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Is the Department assessing them under NIFTI?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Yes.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The implications of that are enormous in-----

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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NIFTI is concerned with - as Deputy O'Rourke said, and I keep coming back to this point - the national planning framework. NIFTI complements that and is a perspective of what we want to do: balanced regional development; compact development; and low-carbon development. NIFTI is a continuation of that approach and it is connected to our climate plans, and regional and rural development plans. It is not a separate formula, a secret sauce or magic. It is the broad strategic direction Government is set on.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Minister will appreciate that it has significant implications. It is the tool by which projects are assessed and is a change from the previous assessment, which is the current one approved by Government. It is a question we as a committee have. The Minister is entitled to put whichever plan forward, but he must bring it to Cabinet for approval.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The Chair said earlier that in the end political decisions have to be made, which it is true. Political decisions have to be informed by the policy approach we want to take. NIFTI is complementary to, and a continuation of, the national planning framework, and that is at the centre of our strategic objectives.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has clarified that it will go to Cabinet by the end of this year. I now call Deputy Crowe followed by Deputy Ó Murchú. The Minister has to leave by 4.10 p.m.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am getting fit running between committee rooms and the Chamber.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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As part of the new NIFTI plan.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. I have raised a number of points-----

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I wish to make a clarification, as I have received a note from my officials, to avoid any trouble or difficulties. NIFTI does not have a specific bearing on investment decisions on projects currently proceeding through the project life cycle. That is the official answer. I was inaccurate and wish to correct the record.

On the points raised by Deputy O'Rourke, I will stand by the belief that we need a fundamental shift in change in our entire transport system towards a measure that promotes active travel, safe routes to schools, and creates compact developments and 15-minute cities. I would not be honest and accurate if I was not upfront in saying that perspective of a radical fundamental change in our transport must happen, particularly in decarbonisation. We need to reduce the volume of traffic by approximately 25% if we are to meet out climate targets. Every decision and action taken by the Government has to be informed by that urgent need for a change in the way we do things, and that is what I bring.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I accept all that. However, they are Government decisions ultimately. I welcome and support the fact that NIFTI will go before Cabinet before the end of the year following public consultation. I apologise to Deputy Crowe.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I ask that my timer is restarted or that I am given me a minute extra.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy can go a minute over.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is an advocate of rail travel. He will be glad to hear that I made the switch in recent months. I cycle and use rail from Clare to here, which is a long distance, but it works. We need a western railway track. West=on=Track is a long-standing movement in the west. It is a shame that a fabulous rail line comes out of Limerick, travels through Cratloe, Sixmilebridge, and Ennis, with little onward connectivity. I appreciate the Minister has submissions before him for park-and-rail facilities, in addition to a light rail system in the Limerick-Clare border area. Is there a possibility of reopening Cratloe railway station? There is a need to upgrade Ennis railway station. The condition of the station is chronic. I hope the Minister can provide warm indications on some of the questions.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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If the Deputy does not mind, I will ask him a question. How far does he cycle to the railway station?

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is a 15-minute cycle.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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That is about 4 or 5 km, perhaps.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I live in the border area.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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What the Deputy is doing is what I think will be done in the future. Rather than always providing for park and rail, bike and rail has massive potential. In other countries, such as Holland, thousands of bikes are parked outside railway stations daily. The benefit of that includes saving the land that would have been used as a car park to build housing beside the railway station; people are much healthier and fitter; and it is faster, cleaner and cheaper. I do not think Irish Rail, or any other plans to date, have properly taken into account the potential for bike and rail. If we see that as a potential development in every railway station, it would be transformative, as the Deputy is doing, and it would be the future.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for the nice accolade. Is there any good news on some of the issues I raised?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Coming back to Shannon Airport and the investment there, I told Pádraig Ó Céidigh recently when starting in his new position that, first things first, we should invest in low-carbon solutions for the airport. As part of that, it would take time and money to open a rail line from either Cratloe or Sixmilebridge to Shannon. It has potential but it also has complications and would be expensive. There is sense in what local people suggested to me. If a good shuttle bus ran between either Cratloe or Sixmilebridge and the airport, there could be a good transport service. That could make the case, if we were to have a station in Moyross when building the Limerick metropolitan rail, for doing something similar in Cratloe or Sixmilebridge, whichever one is optimal, to service not only Shannon Airport but Shannon Industrial Estate.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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The Minister will appreciate my point that linking an airport directly by rail to a city has an added flavour that a shuttle bus does not have. I accept the Minister's point. It will be included in the new LSMATS. Cycling is hugely important and we all support it, but, with the best will in the world, not everyone will cycle due to the nature of it.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I will give the Chairman a challenge; I am going on a complete flyer in this regard.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I have bought a bike and I am cycling.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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When we leave this meeting, let us go out onto the Plinth and count the number of bikes. I bet the Chairman there are as many bikes outside Leinster House as there are cars.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I am not denying that.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We could go on tandem bikes and we would get there in double the time.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I will count them with the Chairman.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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I would love nothing more than a cycle lane the length of the M20. It is all an integrative model. I will invite Deputy Ó Murchú in but we do not want to hold up the Minister.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is no problem; I will not be cycling.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I did not realise there were so many environmental heroes within this-----

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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Warriors.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. They are definitely warriors. I apologise about earlier. I accept that the Narrow Water bridge falls under the shared island unit but there are plans to build by 2023. Would the Minister have a general indication of what the end timeline might look like? As for the Enterprise service, are we still looking at 2026 or 2027 for delivery of the hourly service? On electrification, I would ask about the situation with the DART and Drogheda but unfortunately that is already out there in the open and has been delayed beyond what we would want.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I will have to do something similar to what the Deputy did. Unfortunately, I will have to leg it shortly because I am due in Clondalkin at 4.30 p.m.

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Give me an answer to one question.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I will come back to the Deputy directly with some of the answers.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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We will finish formally. We look forward to re-engaging with the Minister when the NDP is published.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Likewise.

Kieran O'Donnell (Limerick City, Fine Gael)
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It is something we are all interested in. We may differ in our opinions but we are all looking to achieve the same goal in public services. I thank the Minister for attending today's meeting and for engaging with the committee and I thank his officials also.