Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Today we will meet Mr. Martin Fraser, the Secretary to the Government and Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach to discuss the matter of the proposed appointment of Dr. Katherine Zappone as a special envoy to the United Nations, on the freedom of opinion and expression, and specifically the timing of the proposal made to the Government to appoint Dr. Zappone as a special envoy.

Members will be aware that we have had extensive discussions on this matter over a number of meetings. It was specifically requested by a member that we would contact the Secretary to the Government and I am pleased that Mr. Fraser has joined us. He is very welcome to the meeting on the specific issue as raised.

The format of the meeting is we will hear opening comments from Mr. Fraser and then proceed to a questions and answers session. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that we should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of any person or entity. Therefore, if any statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks. I know that any such direction will be immediately complied with.

For witnesses attending remotely from outside the Leinster House campus, there are limitations to parliamentary privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as do witnesses who are physically present. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also remind members that they are only allowed to participate in the meeting if they are physically located in the Leinster House complex.

I welcome everyone to the meeting and trust that all of our future meetings can be exclusively based in this room as Covid restrictions recede. I now invite Mr. Fraser to make his opening statement.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

The committee has asked me to outline the process around this appointment. My involvement in this was exclusively in respect of my role as Secretary to the Government. The Chairman will be aware, but other people may not know, that I have two roles. My role as Secretary to the Government involves management of Government meetings, in respect of which I work with a small team of civil servants in the Cabinet secretariat, which looks after the agendas, memorandums, decisions, minutes and follow-up that is required. This is an important part of Government work and one that is not often discussed although it has been in place for decades. It is a traditional but rigorous process around Government meetings.

In terms of this specific Government decision, it was made at the Cabinet meeting on Tuesday, 27 July. In terms of process, on the preceding Friday, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Coveney, circulated a memorandum to his colleagues stating that he proposed to seek approval for ambassadorial appointments and a special envoy, but he did not include the names in the memorandum circulated on that Friday. We produced a briefing note, which goes to the Taoiseach and other people, outlining what is on the agenda. The final agenda for that meeting included 41 items. The briefing note would have stated that the Minister, Deputy Coveney, would bring the names to the meeting. In the event, before that meeting, on the Monday evening at 9.24 p.m., I received an email from the Secretary General at the Department of Foreign Affairs with the final memo, which is entirely normal. I get the final copies of memos from Departments because we need to have them on our file for the Cabinet meeting so we can make sure the correct memorandum is there and to make sure the correct decision is made and so on and so forth. The following morning, I sent that final copy of the memorandum to my colleague, the assistant Secretary to the Government and to my private secretary. That was because they are in charge of the paperwork for the Cabinet meeting. They would have ensured they were with the Cabinet papers for me going to the meeting. As it happened - not as it happened, but further to the process - the Department of Foreign Affairs would have sent a copy of the final memo at assistant secretary level the following morning. I can get the exact time, but I think this is happening at 9.21 a.m.. That is when I forwarded the memo and, I think, 9.41 a.m. is when the Department of Foreign Affairs sent us the memo for the second time effectively. Finally, the Minister did what he was supposed to do, that is, he brought the final memo to the Cabinet meeting. He brought it in-person, with all of the names of all of the ambassadors to be appointed, which, as the committee will be well aware, included my name, and the special envoy. That was distributed to the members of the Cabinet at the Cabinet meeting on 27 July. The Government then approved the Minister's proposal.

That is what happened. I am happy to take any questions.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Fraser. I will now open the meeting to members of the committee, starting with Senator McGreehan on the basis that she is substituting for Senator Wilson who raised the specific issue, following which I will call Deputies Brady, Gannon and Clarke.

Erin McGreehan (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Mr. Fraser and thank him for attending the meeting. I will be reading from script provided to me by Senator Wilson. I have not attended previous meetings of the committee on this matter, but I have attentively followed them. When the Minister, Deputy Coveney, first appeared before the committee on 31 August, Senator Wilson asked him a series of specific questions relating to the preparation and submission of the Cabinet memo. Among the questions asked was a question as to whether the contents of the memo had been discussed with the Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach and the Cabinet secretariat in advance of the Cabinet meeting and if the memo and its contents were brought to the attention of the programme managers and-or political advisers in the offices of the Taoiseach or the leader of the Green Party? In response to that question, the Minister, on page 24, paragraph 2, of the committee report, said:

As to whether the contents of the memorandum were discussed among Secretaries General, I do not think so. Certainly, if the Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach knew about this, I am sure he would have raised it with the Taoiseach.

On 6 September, the Department of Foreign Affairs released the papers related to Dr. Zappone's appointment. That bundle of documents contained a reference from 26 July described in the index of an email as, "email from sec-gen to the Department of An Taoiseach". The index states this was the email sending the memo to the Government as an attachment. It also says there is no message or text in the email. The email shows it was sent from the email account of Mr. Niall Burgess, who was then Secretary General at the Department of Foreign Affairs, to the email address of Mr. Fraser at the Department of An Taoiseach. That was sent on Monday, 26 July at 21.24. The email subject line references final HOMs memo. Senator Wilson would like to know from Mr. Fraser if the Minister, Deputy Coveney, was correct when he said, ".....if the Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach knew about this, I am sure he would have raised it with the Taoiseach.". When the email was sent on Monday, 26 July at 21.24, was there already a version of that memo on the e-Cabinet system? The subject heading describes the attachment as "final HOMs memo". What does HOMs mean? I presume "final" means there was an earlier version. Was that email on the e-Cabinet system? What are the differences? Did they include the naming of the person to be appointed special envoy or was that name only identified at the Cabinet meeting on the following day? Did Mr. Fraser see the memo sent as an attachment by email on Monday, 26 July at 21.24? As there is no text in the attached email, we would assume that Mr. Fraser and his colleagues, were expecting an attachment to arrive from the Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs at that time. When was that email opened by Mr. Fraser, or his colleagues, and what was done with it?

I have asked plenty of questions. I would be grateful if Mr. Fraser could reply to some of them.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator. Members will be aware that some of the issues raised have been addressed by Mr. Fraser in his opening statement. Nevertheless, for clarity, we can take it that the questions asked by Senator McGreehan are now posed to Mr. Fraser. I ask him to respond to them, notwithstanding the fact that he has already dealt with some of the issues.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I thank the Senator. I did address some of the issues raised, so I am at risk of repeating myself.

There are two versions of the memo to which the Senator referred. The first version was sent out on the Friday. It was made clear to members of the Government - it goes to everybody - that the Minister was going to propose appointments of ambassadors and a special envoy but no names were included. The final version of that memo was then brought to the Cabinet meeting by the Minister for Foreign Affairs on the Tuesday, which is exactly the correct procedure. It was circulated to the members of the Government on the Tuesday morning. The email to which the Senator referred, that was sent on the Monday night, was a final draft of the heads of missions, HOMs, memo. In my mind, and I am sure in the mind of the Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs, it was a memo about ambassadorial appointments and heads of missions, HOMs. It is absolutely standard that I would be given a copy of such a memo in advance. It could be the day before or on the morning of the meeting, just so that I have it with the papers for the Cabinet meeting. As I said, I sent it on to my two colleagues in the Cabinet secretariat. They would have put it on my file, so that it was on my file for the Cabinet meeting. That is what happened.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Secretary General. I think the timeframe, as outlined by the Secretary to the Government, accords with that as per the questions asked by Senator McGreehan.

I will move on to Deputy Brady, followed by Deputies Gannon and Clarke and Senator Craughwell. I call Deputy Brady. On the basis that we have had statements in the past, and having regard to the subject matter of the meeting and the specific reason for which the Secretary to the Government is here, I ask that members pose questions in a direct and concise way, as indeed, Senator McGreehan did.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Fraser for joining us. I have a number of specific questions.

First, does Mr. Fraser agree that one of the most disturbing aspects of this entire debacle, of which there are many, has been the breach of Cabinet confidentiality? I would appreciate it if Mr. Fraser could give a brief answer to each question.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I am sorry, but the Deputy is going to have to be a bit more precise. To which particular instance is he referring?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The leaking of confidential Cabinet material in relation to the appointment of Dr. Zappone to the UN special envoy position.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

Is the Deputy referring to the media reports about what happened at the Cabinet meeting?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking a very specific question. Does Mr. Fraser agree that one of the most disturbing aspects of the entire debacle around the appointment of Dr. Zappone has been the breach of Cabinet confidentiality in terms of the information making its way from the Cabinet table into the public arena, thereby breaching Cabinet confidentiality?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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It is more of an allegation or a charge than it is a fact.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, Chair, but it is not. The information came into the public arena from the Cabinet. Therefore, I am asking Mr. Fraser if he agrees that the breach of Cabinet confidentiality was a disturbing element around the issue, "Yes" or "No".

Mr. Martin Fraser:

First of all, I cannot really engage with-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Does Mr. Fraser think that this Government has a problem with the leaking of information from Cabinet?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I am a civil servant. I really do not want to get into accusations for or against the Government. I respect the Deputy's right to hold whatever views he holds but I cannot start talking about this Government, that Government or other Governments.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking Mr. Fraser whether he thinks there is a problem with the leaking of information from the Cabinet.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

Honestly, I completely respect the Deputy's views on this matter. I am not going to get into commenting on it.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, well do not comment on that. Perhaps Mr. Fraser could comment on the establishment of an investigation by the Cabinet, which Mr. Fraser was tasked with heading up, into the leaking of confidential information from the Cabinet. I am speaking specifically in relation to the leaking of the report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes in January 2021. Does Mr. Fraser think that the establishment of an investigation into the leaking of that information was necessary?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

That has got nothing to do with the subject matter-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I asked Mr. Fraser a specific question as to whether he thinks there is an issue with the leaking of information from Cabinet. Has he been tasked with setting up an investigation into the leaking of confidential material from the Cabinet, "Yes" or "No"?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I was trying to answer the Deputy's question there, but he interrupted me. I will not get into commenting on what happens at Cabinet meetings. I do not know anything about that stuff. On the specific point raised by the Deputy, which is not within the remit of the committee and not within the remit of what I was invited here to talk about, I was asked to investigate that leak. To be honest, of course, I wish people would not leak from Cabinet. However, I was asked to investigate that leak. I have not been able to find out who did it. I am not optimistic.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Fraser was also asked to investigate previous leaks back in 2017. I am not sure as to whether that process has concluded.

In relation to the investigation into the leak, what methodology was used?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I remind Deputy Brady, other members of the committee and everybody involved that the subject matter of the meeting with Mr. Fraser is to discuss specifically the timing of the proposal made to the Government on the matter of the appointment of Dr. Zappone as special envoy. This was the reason that the invitation was issued to the Secretary to the Government on a proposal of Deputy Brady and some other members. For the committee to engage in matters which were the subject of other Cabinet meetings of some time ago is not something that we can expect the Secretary to the Government to answer, nor indeed, is it under the remit of this committee at this point in time, if ever.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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With all due respect, I think it is critically important that we establish what is being done to determine how this information came into the public area. It has been cited that Mr. Fraser has headed up an investigation into the leaking of confidential information from Cabinet. Therefore, it is most important that as we have Mr. Fraser here, we take the opportunity to ask him about what I think is a very serious matter of the leaking of confidential material. It has been cited that Mr. Fraser has been tasked to head up an investigation into the leaking of confidential Cabinet material into the public arena.

I am asking specific questions. He has headed up investigations in the past. He has been tasked with heading up the investigation into the leaking of private information around the report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes. I am asking him about the methodology around that and whether he has been tasked with heading up an investigation into the continuation of the leaking of confidential documentation from Cabinet around the appointment of Dr. Zappone. I am looking for a simple "Yes" or "No" answer to the question of whether he has been asked to head up an investigation into the leaking of that confidential material.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

The answer to the second question is "No", and the answer to the previous question is "Yes".

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I refer to the methodology that has been used. We have established that there is a problem with the leaking of confidential material from Cabinet. Would Mr. Fraser agree that is the case?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

We are so far from the remit of what I have been asked here to talk about.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The question requires a simple "Yes" or "No". There is a problem with the leaking of information. I think this is an opportunity to get some information from Mr. Fraser, who has been tasked with heading up an investigation into the leaking of that information.

On the methodology that has been used, has Mr. Fraser interviewed Ministers about the-----

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I am really sorry, but this is not the reason I was asked to appear before the committee and the Deputy knows that.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have an opportunity to pose some very serious questions on the leaking, which to my mind is a criminal matter, of confidential material relating to the appointment of Dr. Zappone-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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We do not-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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-----into the public arena from the Cabinet. Mr. Fraser has a role in investigating previous leaks from Cabinet which we established back in January. He is refusing to give us any information on the methodology of the investigation he has been tasked to head up.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I remind Deputy Brady that this committee has no role in the matter of any confidential discussions at Cabinet or otherwise. We are dealing-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am not looking for information as to what-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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We are dealing specifically with the circumstances-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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-----the findings are.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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-----surrounding the run up to the-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am just asking about the methodology of the investigation that has been carried out by Mr. Fraser-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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----- Cabinet meeting. I will not allow that question.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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-----surrounding the appointment of Dr. Zappone.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

As I said to the Deputy, "No" is the answer to that.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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"No" is the answer to that. Regarding the methodology for previous investigations, did Mr. Fraser speak to Ministers about the leaking of information previously?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I am sorry, Deputy. I am really not going to discuss that investigation at this committee. That is not why-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is that investigation ongoing?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I will not allow that question in any event.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, the Chairman will not allow that question. I will ask this question then. Mr. Fraser has headed up a number of investigations going back to 2017. There were media reports relating to the leaking of confidential Cabinet material two years later. We are led to believe by a report in one of the newspapers that the investigation still ongoing. We now know there was an investigation ongoing in January. Mr. Fraser will not tell us whether he spoke to any Ministers or questioned them. Did he speak to the Garda about these breaches of Cabinet confidentiality?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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We have no role in identifying, dealing with or investigating any issue surrounding allegations of leaking of information from Cabinet. We are dealing specifically-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The only reason we have been talking about this issue over recent months is because it has been leaked from Cabinet. That is the only reason we are talking about this here now. It is critical to get some information.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Brady, along with all other members, is fully familiar with the reason for the attendance and the invitation prior to the attendance of Mr. Fraser.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The only reason he is here is because of the information leaked from Cabinet in the first place.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I will not allow questions-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am trying to establish what is being done by Mr. Fraser-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I will not allow questions dealing with the leaking of information from Cabinet.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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-----who has been tasked by Cabinet.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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It is beyond the remit of this committee. The Deputy knows that as well as everybody else. I regret that members are taking a politically mischievous route in our dealing with this issue. I ask the Deputy to desist from dealing with questions which he has no right to be asking.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have made no political charges whatsoever. I disagree entirely with that charge. I have made no political charges to Mr. Fraser. I am just trying to establish some key facts. The reason we are talking about this matter again today is because that private confidential information was leaked from Cabinet. It has now been established that back in 2017 and in January, Mr. Fraser headed up an investigation into the ongoing leaking of confidential material from the Cabinet. I am trying to establish some transparency about what is going on in the public service.

I again ask a question of Mr. Fraser. Does he believe the breach in Cabinet confidentiality is a legal matter, a criminal matter?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I hope the Deputy was not suggesting anything about the public service in his last remark.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Absolutely not.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I think he just mentioned the public service and I do not like that at all, to be perfectly honest.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There is no charge against the public service.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I wish the Deputy had not said that. I do not think it is very fair.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There is no charge against the public service whatsoever. Perhaps Mr. Fraser might answer the question I posed to him.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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In any event, let me repeat to Deputy Brady that this committee has no role in dealing with allegations of dissemination of information from Cabinet or allegations that have been made-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, Chairman-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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-----of information leaking from Cabinet. That is beyond the remit of this committee.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, Chairman, I disagree with that.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Our committee-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Fraser said he is heading up an investigation into the leaking of confidential material from Cabinet back in January. He said he is not investigating the information relating to the appointment of Dr. Zappone. Does he deem the leaking of material from Cabinet to be a legal issue? Is that a criminal issue or a legal issue? Is it unlawful? Surely Mr. Fraser must be able to answer that question.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I said 15 minutes ago that I am not allowing this question on the matter of leaking or otherwise from Cabinet. I am ruling on that now. The Deputy can ask the question in the same manner or he can ask it in an entirely different manner. That does not change the subject matter of the question. I am ruling that questions on the leaking of information from Cabinet are beyond the remit of this meeting and beyond the remit of this committee. The time available to the Deputy is now exhausted, but I will allow him some latitude-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have two final questions.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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-----to deal specifically with the timing of the proposal made to Government on the matter of the appointment of Dr. Zappone as a special envoy and no other issue.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was Mr. Fraser asked to try to establish how the information about the appointment of Dr. Zappone made its way into the public arena?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

No.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Therefore, he was not asked to include that in any previous investigation that he was tasked to head up?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

No.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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He has not spoken to anyone in Cabinet about how this information got into the public arena.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I am not allowing that question.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I wish the Chairman would, but anyway "No" is the answer.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I wish Mr. Fraser would answer one or two questions because we are getting very little. I have one final question. Was the investigation in 2017 into material making its way from Cabinet into the public arena completed?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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That is not a matter within the terms of our discussion dealing with the appointment of Dr. Zappone as a special envoy.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I will finish with this question. Are any outstanding investigations being headed up by Mr. Fraser relating to any dealings within Cabinet?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I think it is on the public record. There are at least two and possibly three going back over my time here. On no occasion, have I been able to locate the person who did it. There are people who know who they are but I am afraid I am not one of those people.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Fraser has spoken to Ministers on that to try to establish-----

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I have answered the Deputy's question. I am really not going to get into the ins and outs of this.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Fraser has not spoken to the Garda either.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I am not even going to get into the ins and outs of that.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I will not allow the Secretary to the Government to get into that at this committee. I take it that concludes Deputy Brady's questions and I am moving on to Deputy Gannon, followed by Deputy Clarke and Senator Craughwell.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank Mr. Fraser for taking the opportunity to address the committee today. I wish to read into the record that our agenda today states that we will be engaging with Martin Fraser, Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach on the appointment of UN special envoys. In doing so it is important to understand the culture in which these special envoys or other top-level positions are allocated. Some of my questions will pertain to culture within the Department and I will be standing firm that such questioning should be allowable under the terms of the agenda.

When did Mr. Fraser know exactly that Katherine Zappone was going to be appointed as a UN envoy? Did he know before they got the memo? Had he heard it? Had there been talk?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

The answer to that is I do not know. It is possible it was mentioned to me. I genuinely do not know. The first time I knew for certain was on the night I got that memorandum. I had no involvement in it. I am happy to talk on the Deputy's questions on culture and all that because they are very fair questions. It is possible it was mentioned to me but it was not something I was dealing with.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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We only have two special envoys. This was to be our third. Mr. Fraser says it may have been mentioned to him. He is our most senior civil servant and is going to be an ambassador. He is saying it may have been mentioned to him but he does not remember the context in which it happened.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

The reason being that I was aware that Katherine Zappone had worked with the Department of Foreign Affairs. I do not work in the Department of Foreign Affairs. The Deputy understands that. He has seen the FOI. I had no involvement in any of this until the Cabinet meeting. Because Katherine Zappone had worked for the Department of Foreign Affairs in the past, it would not have seemed unusual to me. I really had no engagement with envoys. The question of culture etc., I accept and am happy to explore honestly with the Deputy but I was not involved in this appointment.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I do not think Mr. Fraser was involved but I want to understand when he became aware. I believe he became aware before he got the memo on the day before. Is that fair to say?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I can check that with Mr. Burgess. I might have become aware a couple of days earlier. There was a blank memo on Friday. It was not registering as a big thing with me. I know this looks like a big thing in hindsight. It would not have registered as a big thing with me. It was foreign affairs business. That is the honest answer.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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There were bigger things on the agenda.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Is there a culture in the Department of Foreign Affairs of well-connected people being given important jobs without going through a fair and open process? Does Mr. Fraser believe there is such a culture? Can he think of any other examples in which he was involved of important jobs in the Department of Foreign Affairs being given without a fair and open process?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

"No" is the answer but I do not work in the Department of Foreign Affairs so-----

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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You have a senior role in the Top-Level Appointments Committee, do you not?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I ask that direct and concise questions be put to the Secretary to the Government on the basis of the invitation. Asking the Secretary to the Government about a culture in the Department of Foreign Affairs is not something that is relevant to this meeting or that the Secretary to the Government could comment on.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I introduced the concept of the culture. The Secretary General said he was okay to talk about the idea of the culture. If the Chair lets me follow my theme of questions, I will get to the point.

Mr. Fraser is the senior member of the Top-Level Appointments Committee. Last year, John Concannon was appointed director general of Global Ireland in the Department of Foreign Affairs without a fair and open process. Is that fair to say?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I was not involved in that either. I am on the Top-Level Appointments Committee. There are 15 members of that. I do not know how that post came out. John Concannon has been on secondment here in the past. It is a while ago. I do not know how that appointment was made.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It did not go through the-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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In any event, the Top-Level Appointments Committee has nothing to do with our deliberations or with the subject of the appointment of special envoys.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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It very clearly pertains to the question----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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A relevant question, please.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Fraser has been appointed ambassador to the UK. I congratulate him on that. When did the Taoiseach become aware that Mr. Fraser had become ambassador to the UK? Was it at the meeting when Katherine Zappone was appointed?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

That is a different process from the one the committee has been discussing. I am sure the Deputy wants to know the full story so I will tell him. I was appointed to this position in 2011. It is a seven-year term, following which I either retire - despite the ageing the committee is helping me through, I am too young to retire - I get transferred to another Civil Service role or I get a job in an international organisation.

My seven-year term was up in 2018. I got a three-year extension from the Taoiseach at the time. That was really because we were doing Brexit and it was heavy stuff at the time. I have a lot of background in that. The extension was up in July of this year. I discussed it with the Taoiseach on a number of occasions and we agreed I would do one more year, mainly because of the pandemic. With leave and whatever, I probably would have been leaving in January or February. I do a lot of work on the pandemic and various things. We agreed I would do another year. The Government formally agreed to that early in July but I also felt it was time for me to move on. The options are another job in the Civil Service, retirement or an international organisation. I have had various discussions with the Taoiseach. I discussed it with the Tánaiste, with the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and with the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Michael McGrath, because he is the Minister with responsibility for the public service. I had some discussions with the Secretary General of Foreign Affairs. It is a Civil Service position in the Department of Foreign Affairs. Obviously, I discussed it with the Minister, Deputy Coveney, who offered me the position ultimately. That process has been under way for a good few months. Somebody cannot be moved out of a job like mine without careful planning. There is a lot of personal stuff for me, family and whatever else. It is not nothing.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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In any event, there is no relationship between that and the proposed appointment of Dr. Katherine Zappone

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Will Mr. Fraser come back to us and tell us when he became aware that Katherine Zappone had been appointed?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I will. It is quite possible it was mentioned to me. I will find out. I will ask Mr. Burgess if he said it to me. My first official knowledge of it was when I got that memo on the Monday night.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Did Mr. Fraser attend or receive an invitation to the Merrion event held by Ms Zappone?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

No.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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You did not receive any invitation to that either, no?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

No.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome Mr. Fraser. I am not sure if his expression was one of regret or relief at not being invited to Merriongate .

Mr. Fraser said this looks like a big thing in hindsight. That is part of the problem. It is a big thing in hindsight and it was a big thing at the time. Mr. Fraser is a very experienced civil servant but, based on the two occasions the Minister has been before this committee, something is very striking. Let us be adults and not be disingenuous. I quote from the Minister, who stated, "names are not necessarily included as attached to appointments out of fears of leaks or whatever before that Cabinet meeting". It is not a topic I wanted to dwell on but given we have the opportunity, we may draw slightly on the vast experience of Mr. Fraser and his team. He mentioned in his opening address, which we did not get a copy of, that there is a traditional attitude within the Department. While he is moving on to become the UK ambassador and drawing on his vast experience, what impact does he think that traditional attitude has on appointments like this?

In terms of where we go from here, we know there will be further scrutiny of any ambassadorship or envoy from now on because of what happened around the appointment of Katherine Zappone. What recommendations would Mr. Fraser make, based on the experience he has?

Given how the information got into the public domain and how this scenario played out, does Mr. Fraser think we are now less likely to be able to recruit somebody for a job like special envoy?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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On the matter of the opening statement, there was no opening statement circulated. It had been indicated by the Secretary to the Government that he would make some brief opening remarks by way of background or scene-setting. There was no written opening statement for circulation.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

When I said "traditional", I did not say "traditional attitude", or, if I did, I did not mean to. I was talking about the traditional process. I mean an administrative process. We have paper agendas, paper memorandums and paper decisions. We keep minutes. Records of minutes are approved by Cabinet the following week. That is what I meant by a traditional process. It is a reliable process that means everybody is crystal clear on what the Government has decided.

I did not mean a traditional attitude in that sense. Sorry.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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However, is it really effective? Is it really representative of a Government or Cabinet in 2021 that this is the method being used? If a sitting Minister, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and for Defence, does not have confidence in it, how effective is it?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

The second point is a different one. The process is very good. From my point of view, the most important thing is that it is clear that the members of the Government have the paper in front of them. They can get it by e-Cabinet but it is clear what the paper is, it is clear what the decision being sought is and it is clear whether the decision is approved, changed or rejected. It has to be clear. That decision then has to be disseminated by me after the meeting and minutes have to be done, which are basically the collection of decisions. It is really important that our process is clear and that everyone knows what the Government has considered and what it has decided. That is why we are so fussy here on the paperwork. I am only talking about the paperwork. I am not talking about some traditional 1990s or 2000s attitude to how work is done or anything like that.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I just think it is very-----

Mr. Martin Fraser:

To be honest, if it was all electronic, modern and trendy, it would be completely unmanageable. It is just reliable.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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It is not reliable if we have the Minister saying that it potentially cannot be trusted.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

It is reliable. In due course, no doubt hopefully from the Deputy's point of view, she will serve in government and she will see that. She will know what she has decided. There will be members in the Opposition who will disagree with her decisions but nobody will be disagreeing with what was decided. My job is to make sure that what was decided is clear. There is huge opposition to the decision we are discussing today, but nobody is in any doubt about what was decided. I do not want to dwell on that point, but I wish to make it clear that I was not talking about an attitude or a culture. I am just saying that we have a very robust process. It is old-school, but it is very robust so everyone knows what happens.

The Deputy made another point, which is a fair one. I was only trying to explain. I can imagine people asking, "Why does this fellow not know all about this, given that this is the only thing we have been talking about?" I am not saying it is a trivial thing on its own merits, all I am saying is that it was not a big item in my mind in a 41-item agenda for the Cabinet. I probably get 80 emails a day. There was all sorts of stuff going on and it was the last week of the Dáil. This was nowhere near the top of the things I was thinking about. That is not to say that on its merits, if people do not like it, that it is not a legitimate thing, but also, as always with something like this, a series of things happened afterwards, and we all know what they were, which made it seem bigger and bigger. Always, with hindsight with a thing like this, it is harder to perhaps understand why it was not seen as a big deal at the time. That is the only point I am trying to make. I am certainly not suggesting that anyone thinks this was a bad thing on its merits, regardless of anything else that happened afterwards or beforehand as it turns out.

In terms of the recommendations I would make, the things the Government is doing are the correct things to do. There is a review of the envoy thing, and the committee has been asked for its views on that, and I think they should be done through public competition, as the Taoiseach has said. That is probably the attitude of the Minister, and that is probably in the review as well.

As to whether it will deter other people, it might. However, probably the best way to do these things is through open competition and that way does not deter people because they can see how it happens. Hopefully, it will not deter people. It is not necessarily a bad idea to have an envoy for LGBTI rights, freedom of expression or anything else, so I hope it does not have that effect.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I have a follow-up question. I fail to see how Mr. Fraser can reconcile a process that is currently in place, which has led to the current scenario, with an open competition, without the applicants' names and details also finding their way into the public domain before a decision is made. Do there not also have to be substantial and meaningful changes on the side of the process and those involved in the process?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

The process is fine. The problem is that people do not respect the process.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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The problem is people.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

People do not respect the process. As we all know, stuff does not get out from the process. There is nothing in the process that says: "Hold on, everybody stop and let us give out this confidential information now". That is not the process; that is the people.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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That would be the people at the Cabinet.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

It is whoever does it. It does not have to be people at the Cabinet. Whoever does it, it is people, not the process.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Fraser.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I call Senator Craughwell, who will be followed by Deputy McNamara.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I thank Mr. Fraser for attending the meeting. It is good of him to appear before the committee. He spoke a great deal about process and procedures. Indeed, he spoke at the finance committee in June 2021 about his belief that process and procedure are the way we should do business. I assume that, as the most senior civil servant in the country, he is an expert in process and procedure. Has he at any stage briefed Ministers, senior advisers and senior politicians on the importance of process and procedure when it comes to appointments? That is my first question.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I will answer that in two ways. The Cabinet Handbook and the material that Ministers are given when they take office at the first Cabinet meeting of every Government contain all the process and procedure. Then, of course, I speak to Ministers from time to time. They might have questions for me about process or procedure, and I might have advice about how a thing works. People understand what the process and procedures are. They are not terribly complicated, to be fair.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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As the most senior civil servant advising the Taoiseach and the Cabinet, I assume Mr. Fraser has meetings on a weekly or more frequent basis with Government advisers, the chef de cabinet and perhaps Ministers, and I am sure he is well used to a situation where eleventh-hour issues come before the Cabinet, for example, a couple of hours before a Cabinet meeting something urgent arises that he must deal with. Does he have a role in adjudicating whether something can be deferred to the next Cabinet meeting because it is not urgent? Second, with respect to the Zappone appointment, did Mr. Fraser not feel that it had not gone through the process and procedures and that it needed to be delayed for a couple of days?

By the way, I agree with what Mr. Fraser said, that at the time the decision was made this was not a major item of discussion. However, it is the little things that get us every time. I would be interested to know what he thinks about that.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I do not meet with the Government advisers. They are political appointees. They have a meeting every week at which they do political stuff. Obviously, I am involved in Government business and I attend the leaders' meeting, as it would be called colloquially, which is actually a Cabinet committee on Government co-ordination. That happens most weeks and I attend for most of that, although not all of it. I do not get involved in party political stuff or the like, so I am not as involved in some aspects as one might think. Each Government is different, of course, for all sorts of reasons.

In terms of a role on deferral, if I thought a thing was not ready, I would certainly advise the Taoiseach. I would not allow something to be done if procedure was not followed. There is an urgency procedure, of course, and ultimately it is the Taoiseach, not me, who decides what comes to the Cabinet.

As regards this particular situation, the procedure was followed. A memorandum was circulated before the Cabinet meeting which indicated that there would be ambassadorial appointments and a special envoy on the agenda for the following Tuesday. The Minister was to bring the names to the meeting, and he brought those names to the meeting. There was no procedural problem there. The problem, as everybody knows, is that the Taoiseach was not aware of this. That is not a problem with the procedure. It was just a mistake, and that mistake has been acknowledged and apologised for.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Mr. Fraser was aware of it before the Cabinet meeting. Did he not feel the need to advise the Taoiseach?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I did not, to be honest. I assumed everything was in order.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Mr. Fraser is a well-accomplished individual. His appointment as an ambassador came before that Cabinet meeting as well. The allegation before this committee and in the public domain is that this country is dogged with jobs for the boys. Did Mr. Fraser go through a process whereby he applied and was interviewed by the Top-Level Appointments Committee for his post as ambassador? It seems to me that he discussed it with the Taoiseach and the Minister and that everybody said: "Yes, you are doing a great job. We cannot keep you on here but we will give you a nice little number in London".

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Senator Craughwell, that is not a matter for this committee-----

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I think it is fair.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----as you well know, because it was broached before at this committee.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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In fairness, Zappone-gate is sitting front and centre before us. A senior member of the Civil Service was appointed to a foreign office, that is, an ambassador's role, apparently without any public competition or any appearance before the Top-Level Appointments Committee for civil servants. I think that this committee is entitled to an answer. We cannot put the Zappone appointment in a cocoon and forget about the other two appointments that were made at that meeting.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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It is a completely different process.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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What was the process?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Fraser?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I do not know where to go with that. Effectively, from my point of view, as I said, under the terms of my original appointment as Secretary to the Government and Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach, when my term is up I will transfer to another position, retire or go into an international organisation. It is a transfer, and therefore, a reassignment, for me within the Civil Service. It is not a promotion, or anything like it.

I note the Senator's characterisation of this. I think there are easier places to go than London, at the moment. Perhaps I have a handy number there but I am not sure that is a good characterisation of the job.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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In any event, Mr. Fraser and Senator Craughwell, I am not going to allow a discussion on this issue.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Mr. Fraser has been very-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The process is entirely different.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Mr. Fraser has been very straight and honest.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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And he has been helpful.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Given his experience, I would think he is the ideal man for the job in London. That is not the point; the point is that we cannot ring-fence the Zappone appointment and say it was done on a "jobs for the boys" basis, when two senior civil servants were also appointed to ambassadorial roles. They should have been interviewed and should have applied for the posts. The positions should have been advertised openly.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I must say, Senator Craughwell, there are two distinctly different processes in the matter of the appointment from within the Civil Service of an ambassador and the appointment of a special envoy, which is precisely the reason that this committee has been engaged in this issue since early August. I do not think it is fair, at this stage of our debate, that there should be an attempt on the part of a member of this committee to put both appointments in the one basket, because they are separate and different.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Chairman, I respect your integrity above all things. I have always found you very straight. However, Mr. Fraser is on record as being adamant about process and procedures. Process and procedures is what we are talking about here. One cannot ring-fence one appointment from that day and forget about the other two. Three appointments went before Cabinet without process and procedure that is transparent and in the public domain. I am sorry if that upsets you, Chairman, as I respect your position here and the job you are trying to do. However, I also understand that we cannot demonise the Zappone appointment without examining every other appointment that was made at that meeting. I am sorry, because as I said on the record, I believe that Mr. Fraser would be the ideal man for the London job. His work in Northern Ireland and for this country has been exceptional.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I will move on after a brief comment from Secretary to the Government on the processes involved here. It seems to me that Senator Craughwell is forming the view that the appointment of a special envoy is exactly the same process as the appointment of an ambassador.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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They both speak for Ireland.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Secretary to the Government for a brief comment.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I thank the Senator for his kind words. All I can say is that ambassadorships are Civil Service roles. The process is effectively, from my point of view, a reassignment within the Civil Service. We reassign public servants all the time. I do not believe it has anything to do with the special envoy process whatsoever. I came into the Civil Service through a competition and every promotion I ever got was through a competition.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I have one final question. It concerns all Ministers' telephones. We have been asking about it for a while, and I was told at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport and Communications the other day, that all Ministers' telephones are encrypted. The issue of the Minister for Foreign Affair's phone being hacked is a very serious one. Would Mr. Fraser regard it as being up there with a national security issue that needs investigation at the top level of cybersecurity in this country?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I am not sure of the extent to which the Secretary to the Government can answer that question.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I think it is an important one.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

The Senator is well versed in these matters. I do not know the details of that situation. All I know is that the matter was reported to the National Cyber Security Centre, the Garda, the national security people, as well as the Department. I presume that it is being looked at. I have obviously heard the media reports about the incident. I have not dealt with it myself. However, the Senator is right. These are important issues and should be dealt with as such.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I thank Mr. Fraser. I apologise for any embarrassment I may have caused, but I felt I had to ask those questions.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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That is noted, Senator.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

It is okay.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I call on Senator Ardagh, who has a brief question, then Deputy Cowen and then our guest.

Catherine Ardagh (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Fraser for coming today. I want to disassociate myself from some of the questions from a member who I very much respect, Deputy Brady, at the beginning. I do not think his questioning was appropriate, although I have huge respect for him as a member of our committee. He is one of the most active members on the committee. I do not think many of his questions today were relevant.

I actually came here today surprised that Mr. Fraser was coming in. I thank him for coming in to answer our questions. Clearly, he answered all the questions perfectly. He has shown our committee great respect. Our committee has done some super public service work over the last few weeks, bringing issues in relation to the appointment of Dr. Zappone into the public domain, but I do not think we have any further work to do in relation this matter. That is my own personal opinion.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the previous speakers and the Secretary General for making himself available to the committee in the hope that we can bring this to a conclusion, notwithstanding the vote that took place in the Dáil some weeks ago.

Mr. Fraser stated that a memo was circulated the Friday before the Cabinet meeting, outlining the detail of the upcoming appointment, without mentioning the names. Is that correct?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

That is correct.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Then on the day in question, namely, the day of the Cabinet meeting, the reason why people were blindsided was because it was only then that the names were brought forward. Is that correct?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

Well, in effect, yes. That is right.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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When the Minister for Foreign Affairs appeared before the committee, I asked him, at one stage, if an error had been made in the Cabinet memo, or what detail was in it that caused people to be blindsided. He said:

This was, by the way, in the Cabinet memo, but it was not spotted by some people. I have the page from the Cabinet memo in front of me, which mentioned a special envoy for freedom of opinion and expression in terms of an appointment. It outlined in brief terms what that was about and that the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Defence requested the approval of Government for the appointment of Katherine Zappone as that special envoy. It was actually in the memo.

Perhaps I have it wrong. I know that Mr. Fraser cannot necessarily answer this question but it must be that the Minister was referring to the second memo that he brought personally to the Cabinet meeting. However, we understood, when he gave that information to our committee, that he was referring to the first memo. In his second appearance before the committee, he apologised for being sloppy. Perhaps this was one aspect of his sloppy evidence. Is that Mr. Fraser's understanding?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

Again, I might forego the opportunity to call a member of the Government "sloppy" or anything else.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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He did himself.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

As I stated at the outset, and as a former member of the Government the Deputy will understand, the memo sent on the Friday contained no names. It just indicated that the positions would be, namely, ambassadors and a special envoy. Then on the Tuesday, the Minister for Foreign Affairs brought the final memo containing the names to the Cabinet meeting.

The members of the Government-----

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I respect that. The Secretary General is giving the factual details.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

-----received a memo with no names on the Friday and saw the final memo with the names on the Tuesday.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I respect, appreciate and understand that and Mr. Fraser is bringing the factual detail of the issue to bear to this committee, which I wholeheartedly accept. Perhaps I am missing something and perhaps the Minister clarified this on the second day he came before the committee but he definitely gave me the impression, when he answered that question in the quotation I have given to Mr. Fraser, that when he said the name of Katherine Zappone was on the memo, that it was in the memo. He said it was not spotted by some people. I do not know how we will clarify that point. I, as much as anybody else, want this finished with as there are issues of much greater importance and pertinence that are at the centre of the lives of the constituents I represent, rather than this issue.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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With respect to Deputy Cowen, asking the Secretary General about a comment of the Minister is probably not the easiest way to find resolution.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that the Secretary General has clarified that the first memo had no names.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Yes, no names.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The memo that came on the day of the meeting had the names brought personally by the Minister but the Minister gave the impression to this committee that the first memo had the names on it. He said that these were not spotted by some people, as if some people were wrong for claiming that they were blindsided, to be quite honest. Somebody else may respond to that and I do not expect the Secretary General to do so. He has clarified the matter for me and it is up to the Minister to clarify the matter for everyone else.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Is the Deputy finished?

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I call now Senator Ó Donnghaile.

Niall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Chairman and Mr. Fraser. I am fully cognisant of the advice the Chairman has offered to the committee as to the remit of this meeting but I want to ask a question on something that Mr. Fraser offered in the course of his own contribution. It is entirely up to himself whether he takes the opportunity to answer it. This relates to some of the concerns about leaks from Cabinet, and specifically, the investigation into the leak regarding the report on the mother and baby homes. Mr. Fraser said that he had not been able to establish who did it and that he was not optimistic in that regard. Is that the position as far as that investigation goes?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Senator Ó Donnghaile, I have already ruled as Chair that the committee is not charged with any remit dealing with mother and baby homes or any discussion at Cabinet pertaining to same. That notwithstanding, the Secretary General is already on record at this committee as making a comment. I am unsure as to the extent to which the Secretary General would wish either to repeat that or elaborate on it. I do not think that we can have a discussion on this issue.

Niall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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I am not looking for a discussion to be quite honest but I simply am seeking an assessment-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Senator is introducing a discussion on it.

Niall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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-----from the Secretary General. This is a question-and-answer session and as I have already mentioned, this was offered up by Mr. Fraser in the course of his own contribution, so it is pertinent to our overall discussion.

The real question that might be more relevant to what we are discussing here today is whether this is what we can expect regarding any investigation into the leaking of the appointment of Dr. Zappone, that is, that the Secretary to the Government is not hopeful or optimistic. Is that all we can expect?

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I do not think-----

Niall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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Regardless of whether one regards this as significant issue in hindsight, the reason it is important to compare is that the Oireachtas system actually crashed given the volume of public interest and disgust around the issues of the mother and baby homes, so heavily lobbied were Members at that time. When we have the opportunity, it is a relevant question to ask Mr. Fraser of his own commentary to this committee. Moreover, I hope this committee and the broader public can expect more from any investigation into the leaking regarding the appointment we are discussing here today. I will offer that up in the hope that-----

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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No, in-----

Niall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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-----Mr. Fraser will take the opportunity to answer it. I will, however, take the Chairman’s direction on that point.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I do not really want to add to what I said earlier on. It is very hard to find out who does these things. The people who do it know who they are, as do the people who receive the material. I am afraid it is very hard for a third party to find out in any of these things and I have not been asked to investigate the latest event.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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In any event, the Senator may well be aware that this was the issue that was the subject matter of very serious charges that were made in the Lower House of the Oireachtas some two weeks ago and may well be the subject matter of a complaint to the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight. I do not believe this committee has any information that can assist, expand or develop that point further and I do not believe therefore that we should speculate in any way. I take it that that concludes Senator Ó Donnghaile’s questions.

Niall Ó Donnghaile (Sinn Fein)
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It does and I thank the Chairman.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator and now for our guest. I call Deputy McNamara to speak now. I thank him for his patience and understand that it has been somewhat tested. In any event he has the floor now.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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No, that was not a problem, Chairman. I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to speak.

I congratulate Mr. Fraser on his appointment as an Irish Ambassador and I understand that he is the third non-career diplomat to be appointed as an ambassador. I may be incorrect on that point but I am aware of two other such appointments.

Senator Craughwell raised the process and I do not wish to personalise this issue by referring to Mr. Fraser’s own appointment but the Secretary General said that it would be good, in the future, were EU, UN or Government special envoy positions generally to be advertised for open competition. I suppose there has been a movement generally in that direction in the Civil Service. I appreciate that there is a very significant difference between an envoy, which is a temporary part-time position, and a position as an ambassador, which Mr. Fraser said was a Department of Foreign Affairs position and then immediately clarified to the effect that it was a Civil Service position.

How are such positions currently advertised and who may apply? I am not talking specifically about the London position. Obviously, for the entry-level positions in the Department of Foreign Affairs, any Irish citizen can apply. There are many Irish citizens in senior positions within the European Union’s diplomatic corps, namely, the European External Action Service and in UN missions across the world. Can they apply or is this competition confined to members of the diplomatic corps or is it confined only to civil servants? Who may apply then for such positions and how are they advertised? If that is not clear, given that Mr. Fraser has made the recommendation, which I understand was a personal opinion, that there should be clarity going forward on how envoys are appointed and that a process should be put in place, does Mr. Fraser believe that a similar process should be put in place and perhaps that there should be a greater openness to external applicants for ambassadorial positions?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

That is probably a matter that is better answered by people in the Department of Foreign Affairs. One can get into the Civil Service, including the Department of Foreign Affairs, at every level. In most Departments, one can do that all the way up to Secretary General and in most other Departments, at least up to assistant secretary level. There are opportunities. I am aware of people who had applied for jobs from outside of the Department of Foreign Affairs at a senior level who have probably got them and who will then end up being appointed as ambassadors.

The process for assigning heads of mission posts in the Department of Foreign Affairs is a very complex one which the Secretary General in the Department of Foreign Affairs carries out, not me. I was involved in this one but I am not generally involved. In fact the Chairman of the committee, as a former Minister, probably knows far more about this matter than I do.

Returning to the Deputy’s point, there are good people outside of the Civil Service and they can apply to come in at the level described. I believe I am correct in saying that our ambassadors have three or four grade levels, depending on the size of the mission and it is very possible for people to enter the Civil Service and the Department of Foreign Affairs at any of those levels. While perhaps one will not be appointed as a head of mission on one’s first day, one certainly can become a head of mission quite soon thereafter. That talent pool is in fact available to the Department.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Would Mr. Fraser accept that it is very hard to apply for a job that is not advertised?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

The senior jobs in the Department of Foreign Affairs are advertised. Individual posts are not advertised; I presume they are advertised internally. I am not in a position to answer that question properly because I am not in the Department of Foreign Affairs.

It is possible, however, to enter the Department of Foreign Affairs and to end up as the head of a mission. The way that it is probably done is that people work in headquarters for a while first and then they end up working abroad. It would be wrong for me, however, to start talking about human resource policies in the Department of Foreign Affairs. It is not something with which I am deeply familiar.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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That is fine. My understanding is that people apply for third secretary positions and the people in those posts perform a great service for the State, but they are relatively junior positions which are relatively-----

Mr. Martin Fraser:

No, people can apply all the way up to assistant secretary level.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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That is fine. It is not possible to apply specifically to be a head of mission, however.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I was on an interview board for the post of deputy secretary in the Department of Foreign Affairs recently and there were internal and external candidates for the role. I obviously cannot talk about the details but it was an open process and it allowed people-----

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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That is fine.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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In fairness to the Secretary General, he has been more than generous in his commentary.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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If the Chair will indulge me with some more generosity, I will return to the specific subject matter of this meeting.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Mr. Fraser said earlier that he did not alert the Taoiseach about this matter because he did not see it as being a big issue, as Dr. Zappone had carried out work for the Department of Foreign Affairs previously and she was a senior political figure. I share that view, but my views are irrelevant. Mr. Fraser went on to say then that he did not think that the names were available to anybody until the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Coveney, brought them to the meeting. Would Mr. Fraser accept that in making a decision to not alert the Taoiseach, he must have known about the position before the meeting?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I do not think that I quite said that, or if I did, I apologise and I will clarify. What I said was that the process should have involved the Minister alerting the Taoiseach and I assumed that the Taoiseach had been alerted. Therefore, it was not an active decision on my part not to tell the Taoiseach; it was an assumption on my part that the Taoiseach was aware of the matter. It was an assumption that was wrong on my part, but that was my assumption.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Mr. Fraser very much gave me the impression that he made an active decision that there was no need to alert the Taoiseach because it was not a big deal.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I am sorry. The purpose in me receiving that information at 9.30 p.m. the night before a Cabinet meeting was not for me to tell the Taoiseach. It so that I could have the papers available for the meeting the following morning. I would have assumed that the Taoiseach had been made aware of this matter. I did not realise that he had not been made aware.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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That is fine. I thank Mr. Fraser for his answer.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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I am not sure if the Chair will allow me to return to this matter, but given Mr. Fraser's broad experience in the Civil Service, would he think that it would be a good idea for all positions across the Civil Service to be advertised to internal and external candidates? That would include posts as head of mission, Secretaries General of Departments etc.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

Almost all Secretary General posts, the vast majority, and almost every other post at every other level is available, by open competition, to anybody.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Except for heads of missions overseas.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I would not necessarily favour getting into specific competitions for every post. What we do at the moment, where anybody can aspire to enter the Civil Service at virtually any level, is the right way to do things in this regard.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Does that include the post of ambassador?

Mr. Martin Fraser:

It includes posts at assistant secretary, counsellor and first secretary in the Department of Foreign Affairs, which are the grades from which ambassadors are drawn. Obviously, not everybody in the Department of Foreign Affairs works abroad and not everybody is a head of mission. In principle, however, people can enter the Department of Foreign Affairs and become heads of mission in that way. I think that is the best way to do it.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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I thank Mr. Fraser.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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It is Mr. Fraser's opinion. These are issues that would be more appropriately addressed to the Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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Indeed.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I am sure the committee will have an opportunity in that regard in future sessions.

Michael McNamara (Clare, Independent)
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The Chair's old colleague, the former Taoiseach, Mr. John Bruton, went straight into the European External Action Service as ambassador to the United States. By his own account, and some others too, he was reputed to have been a success. There is something to be learned from that experience.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Yes, and these are policy issues that may be addressed by the Government from time to time as well. I acknowledge the generosity of the secretary to the Government and Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach, Mr. Fraser, in giving an opinion on an issue outside the remit of this meeting. Nevertheless, it was a helpful response to the Deputy in the context of his questions.

I do not see other hands raised and I do not think that we have any other questions. I return to where we started when Senator McGreehan addressed an earlier set of questions. I take it that she is satisfied with the responses that she received on behalf of Senator Wilson. The lack of indication by members regarding a desire to pursue further questioning leads me to believe that we have had an interesting session with the Secretary General. He may wish to make a closing comment.

Mr. Martin Fraser:

I do not wish to make a closing comment and I thank the Chair and the committee for their time. I hope that I was helpful to the members.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Fraser for joining us and meeting the committee and for dealing with the questions from members in the manner in which he did. We will meet members of the Reserve Defence Force Representative Association, RDFRA, at our next session.