Ms Patricia King:

One of Deputy Bruton's first questions was about other collective agreements. By and large, collective agreements usually cover a certain number of weeks. There is no real provision for a contribution in most of the collective agreements but I would give an example of another collective agreement that does. For instance, in construction there is a small contribution from workers every week on an ongoing basis. It is something in the order of cents that is paid into a fund, which then pays out for sick pay, in the order of about €44 per day for someone who is sick. Most of the collectively bargained agreements would include the provision, much like the maternity leave system, that when State payments kick in, they are refunded back to the employer. That would be the same in the public sector as well.

We are strongly arguing that sick pay paid by the employer should be a condition of employment. A strong argument has been put forward about labour costs and the increase in same and so on. I fundamentally disagree with the argument made by employers because if one goes into business, a company cannot go to the ESB and ask for a lesser price for electricity because it is small, for example. If one goes into business one should be able to counter and deal with the cost of a decent wage and decent terms and conditions.

From our point of view, we pay a big bill in this State for the privilege of low pay. One in four workers in this country is low-paid. It cost the State just under €1 billion in 2018 to supplement the income of low-paid workers to try to keep them out of the worst levels of deprivation. That is the price of low pay to this Government and State. The answer of employers to this is that either the worker should pay through extra tax or PRSI, or the State should pay more money to the employer to put this condition in place. We fundamentally reject that. Workers going to work and giving of their labour should be given a decent rate of pay and should have decent conditions. We regard sick pay as a decent condition of employment and it should be paid for by the employer.

Mr. McDonnell is right about having an adult conversation. That is the piece of the adult conversation we should have. When one looks across Europe, they have much higher employer contributions for social insurance but their social wage benefits to workers are much better and those states do not have the large level of bill that this country has to uphold employers paying low wages.