Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

I thank our guests. They have both made valid points that the committee needs to try to understand as it tries to shape this.

From ICTU's point of view, where there are collective agreements around sick pay, is there a rule of thumb around how the cost is shared in contributions between the employee and the employer? Would that be any guide to this issue of how we should try to divide up the relative costs? In a sick pay scheme, the State will be a significant player as well.

Things are changing in terms of the responsibilities of enterprise. The more volatile nature of employment and the need to invest more in staff means that employers will take on more responsibility for training and for illness arrangements. From ISME's point of view, have SMEs learned any lessons from the Covid-19 period? I know Mr. McDonnell talked about the cost of absences but a sick person with Covid-19 coming into the workplace would be a disaster for the workplace. There has been clear merit in having some arrangements so that people feel confident staying at home. What have been the lessons of Covid-19 from an enterprise point of view as to the way we should go?

When ISME looks at ICTU's proposals, what elements does it see as being the most problematic from an employer point of view? Is it the duration or the waiting times, etc.? That is apart from the issue of the cost. Mr. McDonnell raised the valid issue of the replacement of absent staff being a cost. It is a cost that we need to think about in terms of the design of a scheme. What are the most problematic elements of a scheme that has applied in other countries and has been at the heart of the ICTU proposal?

How has Europe coped with these low-margin, high-labour sectors? I know we are talking about an inability to pay clause but that seems a bit strange in a system that is trying to be easy to operate and comprehensive and so on. Are there models other than inability to pay for some of these lower margin businesses, which, as was rightly pointed out, are in a different boat to the multinationals? Are there good models that we could look at for that?

There is a concern about higher sickness and abuses of a scheme. Have anti-abuse mechanisms been built into any of these schemes elsewhere that we should be considering?