Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome Ms Catherine Heaney, chairperson, Corporate Social Responsibility, CSR, Stakeholder Forum; Ms Bernadette Phelan, head of advisory service, Business in the Community Ireland, a forum member; and, from the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Ms Céline McHugh,and Ms Deborah Dignam.

I remind members, visitors and those in the Visitors Gallery to ensure their mobile phones are turned off or switched to flight mode for the duration of the meeting as they interfere with the broadcasting and recording equipment, even when left in silent mode.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Members have been provided with a copy of the presentation and briefing documents submitted by the attendees. I ask Ms Heaney to make her presentation to the committee.

Ms Catherine Heaney:

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach, le Teachtaí, agus le Seanadóirí. Is pribhléid dom a bheith os comhair an choiste inniu.

This is an important engagement for us and I thank the Chairman and members for providing us with the opportunity to address the committee on the issue of the national plan on corporate social responsibility, CSR, and the work of the Corporate Social Responsibility Stakeholder Forum, which supports the implementation of the plan. I am accompanied this afternoon by officials from the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation, as well as by Bernadette Phelan from Business in the Community Ireland.

I have provided a full copy of my script but I may use an abridged version because when I tried it out last night, it was a bit long. Before I go into detail of the national plan and the work of the forum, I wish to reflect on the work of CSR and what it means. The European Commission defines CSR as "the responsibility of enterprises for their impact on society." There are many different definitions and conflicting views over the language relating to CSR. I like to describe CSR as business going beyond compliance. All businesses sign up to a set of rules but CSR is not just about ticking the box; it is going beyond the box. It is about being seen and acting as a good corporate citizen. It must be remembered that there is significant competitive advantage in doing that.

I have been running a small and medium-sized enterprise, SME, in the Liberties in Dublin for the past 15 years. When I started my business, I did not really think about being a good corporate citizen. It was something that was quite instinctive to me. The more I went beyond compliance, the more benefits I got back. At the time, there was much less investment in the Liberties than there is now. I had a feeling that we had a covenant with the community around us.

As our first CSR activity, we started to do some pro bonowork in the area, particularly in the schools, highlighting many of the good activities that were happening in the area. That continued throughout my business life for the 15 years that my business has been established in Francis Street in the Liberties. It also extends to our business practice, our workforce and how we treat one another. It is not just about paying the minimum wage; it goes way beyond that. It is about training and development for staff. Sometimes when the margins are tight, that is tricky. It is challenge that faces many SMEs and that needs to be recognised.

There is a misplaced notion that CSR just came about in the past 20 years. However, it has existed in Ireland for a few hundred years. Members may be aware that in the 1700s, the Guinness family provided hot meals for their workers because malnourished employees were turning up to work. In the 1800s a number of employers, particularly in the big cities in Ireland, provided key worker housing and supported their employees' health. It is not new but it only became recognised as a practice in the 1950s. The practice of reporting and creating obligations relating to CSR happened in the past two decades.

On that basis, in 2011 the European Commission published its first CSR strategy and invited member states to develop national plans on CSR. In doing that the EU recognised that companies that go beyond compliance by taking care of their employees, their customers, their suppliers, the environment and the communities in which they operate are better positioned. By embedding a CSR ethos at the heart of business, enterprises can improve competitiveness, strengthen their long-term sustainability, attract and retain talent - which particularly at the moment can be a big challenge for businesses that are doing quite well - while also fostering social cohesion and protecting the environment. Increasingly CSR is seen as a win-win. It benefits the business and also benefits the stakeholders, including the community, the customers and everybody involved.

This EU foresight was shared by the Irish Government when in 2014, Ireland launched our first CSR action plan. That was a landmark occasion and the CSR forum was established. It comprises 40 members drawn from companies, the public sector and other social partners. Our job is to support the national plan. We now have a new plan, the second plan, published in 2017. I am the chair of the current forum. Our job is to promote CSR practice across five headings: the public sector; diversity and inclusion; environment; social and governance factors; and the sustainable development goals.

As a forum, we see our role as communicators and advocates for strong CSR practice across businesses in Ireland. We are also including the public sector in this. We focus on emphasising good practice and encouraging businesses to adopt such good practice. Our work is heavily underpinned by the officials on the panel, as well as Ms Helen Keane-MacDonough and Ms Sandra Mullen, who are seated behind me and who do great work. It is important to recognise that they do not come from a section in the Department that just works on CSR; they have many other functions as well. I am always really impressed by their willingness and eagerness to expedite the work under the national plan.

Put together, I think we have seen considerable success. I have been sitting on the CSR forum for the past five years since it was established. It is clear that CSR has moved from something that was at the margins for business to now being a boardroom issue. Five years ago, the CSR function in a bigger company was held by somebody who also did marketing and communications; it was just an add-on. Now it has become a function in its own right. We can really see the elevation of the practice. On a day-to-day basis, Ms Mullen and Ms Keane-MacDonough receive new queries from SMEs asking how they can engage in CSR, which is really good news.

As members will see in the script we provided the committee, over the past five years we have delivered a number of tangible things. We have our website csrhub.iewith 100 case studies. The case studies offer ideas about good practice and how companies can engage in and implement CSR. We try to give broad examples for use by SMEs, as well as for bigger businesses. We have an ambassador programme and we also conduct a number of key meetings and a leaders breakfast once a year.

We usually hold one of our meetings outside Dublin. This time last year we were in Cavan. When we hold meetings outside Dublin, we try to invite as many businesses as possible from the communities in which we are holding the meetings. I am a consumer of Áine chocolate. Last year, Áine herself came to the meeting in Cavan. She explained that she has always done her best to be a good business leader. She works with a local school, which provides the pollen from their garden. It is a lovely story involving all this joined-up thinking. She sources all her products locally. She outlined how engaging in CSR helps her to have a competitive advantage. Apart from emphasising the local partnerships, she also organised to have an energy audit. She found she was burning too many gas rings, leaving them on for too long when she was melting the chocolate. She cut that down by half, reducing her energy bill and her overheads. She now has a competitive advantage. It is great to hear stories like that. Sometimes businesses are doing great things in CSR and they do not necessarily call it that.

We have also created a public sector network, emphasising the importance of CSR in public service delivery. Last week according to the CX Index, the credit unions came out on top as being most consumer friendly. We did not see many public service organisations in it but that is about to change.

Even from my vantage point, I have seen how public services are rallying around how to improve the CSR offering in public service delivery. That is commendable.

We have achieved a lot, but the work has to continue. We will have a new plan coming out in 2021 and there are matters on which we need to focus and improve. For example, there is a need for greater engagement with small and medium enterprises, particularly outside Dublin. It is good to see a regional spread among the elected representatives here because in some ways they also have an ambassadorial role. It would help if there was greater emphasis on cross-departmental work, something I know that Ms McHugh is driving, with officials in other Departments. Leadership is so important, particularly at political level. In fairness, the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, has been a natural and important advocate for the CSR agenda. Sometimes I pull down a speech she has made to check if CSR is mentioned. She does mention it and she is an ambassador for it. That is important, but we cannot just rely on one person to be the public voice.

It is important to recognise that CSR is not a panacea or replacement for public policy. It is an opportunity for businesses to work better with all stakeholders to create a more sustainable economy. There are a raft of policies being implemented which the CSR agenda could support, including the implementation of the sustainable development goals, the climate action plan, the business in human rights agenda, active implementation of the public service duty, the forthcoming LGBTI+ strategies, as well as the national volunteering strategy. The CSR stakeholder forum is committed to being flexible in seeing how it can key into the other strategies across other Departments.

Next year, as we move into the final year of the plan, the views of members, particularly as a committee focused on business and innovation, will be important. We would like to be able to engage with the committee on developing priorities for the next plan because the wider our reach the better, both in terms of amplification and in understanding of CSR. As we move through these potentially more challenging times with Brexit and challenges such as climate change, it is necessary for us, the economy and society to be as resilient as possible. Having a responsible business culture is central in that regard. We should not forget that CSR also offers us the potential to grow, be competitive and part of the circular economy in order that we can grow jobs and be more innovative, particularly in the regions. It is important to remember this.

I again thank the Cathaoirleach for giving us this opportunity. We are happy to have a discussion on this issue and take further questions from members.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tá fáilte romhat. Ms Heaney's energy and commitment to advocate for CSR are evident in what she has said. I have a couple of questions because my background is in retail. Up until I became a member of this committee I was not aware of the CSR stakeholder forum. Ms Heaney has said an action plan was launched in 2014 and that the forum has about 40 members drawn from different companies. Are they nationwide? Does the forum have a footprint in every county? How does it make SMEs and small businesses aware of its aims? What are some of its achievements to date? How has it supported companies? I noted that Ms Heaney said the Minister was good in supporting the forum and endorsing its message, but it is important to have representatives of the forum here in order that we can also learn about it.

Ms Catherine Heaney:

Perhaps I will start with the Chairman's questions and then defer to other members of the delegation.

To respond to the Chairman's question about how the forum engages with SMEs, one thing that is peculiar to us as a nation is that we like to talk to others. If somebody else has done something and it has worked for him or her, we might try it for ourselves. Word of mouth and the ambassadorial approach work. There is not an endless supply of people who are able to take time off in their day job to tell others to change the type of cup they use, for example, but where there are representatives of businesses together in a room talking to each other and understanding the advantages of making such a change, it is effective. It helps to have strong messaging in the media, including t he social media. It also helps to have leaders from all disciplines, including elected representatives, talking about this issue. It struck me before I came in to the meeting when I picked up a wrap in Tang café around the corner that it had a little noticeboard on its menu. It indicated that it charged a fee of 20 cents if anybody used a takeaway bag or a takeaway cup, but if a customer brough his or her own bag or cup, it gave them 20 cents back. Clearly, the café has a strong desire to reduce its waste and change consumer patterns. When people see this and talk about it, that is where a new habit is picked up and how the message is amplified. It becomes part of the dialogue and the norm. As the unit in the Department is small, if we want to big it up, we all need to sit down together to see how it can be done.

We attempt to talk about our achievements at our meetings, in social media and media engagements. We engage the usual means of communication, apart from knocking on doors, something we have not yet done. We try to do as much as we can within the available capacity, but there are limitations. I have to say the 40 members of the forum are completely devoted and give great time to advocating for CSR. They go to businesses and talk to the business community. They do everything we could expect of them, but-----

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are they mostly volunteers?

Ms Catherine Heaney:

Yes, they are all volunteers. Everybody is either in a public service job, a trade union or working in a business.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The CSR stakeholder forum receives support from the Department through the secretariat and-----

Ms Catherine Heaney:

Precisely. We also receive support in updating the website and so on. The big list included in my opening statement details everything done in the Department. Ms Phelan might want to add something to it. I am aware of the Chairman's question about the membership, but we will leave it to Ms McHugh to answer.

Ms Bernadette Phelan:

On engagement with SMEs, as a business network, we have been focused for 20 years on talking to larger businesses. However, larger businesses are engaging with SMEs through their supply chains. Within Irish businesses the aim is to have a reputation internationally for high standards. It is a reputational issue, as well as an issue of economic competitiveness. On the point made by Ms Heaney, business leaders are talking about this issue a lot more. In terms of how people do business, SMEs want to trade with companies that have similar standards and apply similar norms in terms of what they expect. The business community is talking a lot more. We are seeing the likes of the local chamber, local enterprise offices and IBEC becoming involved. The mainstreaming of the debate is important. Business leaders are talking about this agenda and mirroring it. Business networks and fora are also embracing it. That should address the Chairman's point about engagement with SMEs.

Dr. Céline McHugh:

I will speak about the membership of the forum. As was said, we have over 40 members. The membership stretches across a variety of business sectors and the scale of companies and includes public sector representatives.

On geography, while the forum is probably not representative across every county, many of the members have businesses in all parts of Ireland such as Musgrave MarketPlace, Lidl and a number of others. As Ms Heaney alluded to, a key focus for the forum is reaching out, particularly to SMEs that are more geographically dispersed. We held two outreach events at which the forum met in counties Clare and Cavan. We have another outreach event planned in the new year. It is one of the things we are seeking to do because we need to influence most smaller businesses and sectors that might not be engaged.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a fantastic idea to visit the regions. This is one of the few committees that have done so. We visited the south east two years ago. We met in Waterford which is in my constituency. We were looking at the Action Plan for Jobs for the south east. Bringing the committee there helped to put a huge focus on the issue. Therefore, it is welcome to hear that the CSR Stakeholder Forum is travelling to all of the regions.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The delegates are welcome. This is the first time I have seen an all-female panel at any committee, which is good.

Does the CSR stakeholder forum have figures to demonstrate the impact of initiatives on local communities?

Ms Catherine Heaney:

We do not have specific figures and do not monitor how CSR is implemented. There is no formal reporting. I ask Ms Phelan to pick up on that issue.

Ms Bernadette Phelan:

As our membership comprises 100 companies, we have a good sample set to show what is happening. On the social impact, we run a collective project in gathering information on company volunteering, fundraising and the community engagement aspect. Data we gathered in 2018 from 50 companies showed 270,000 volunteering hours. Let us consider the impact. There were also cash donations made by those companies totalling €13.5 million, while employees had raised €5.5 million and €11.6 million in funds. That is just a small sample set of companies within Ireland, but it gives us an indication that the business community is cognisant of its role in being a good neighbour and engaging on issues. Some of the top issues companies addressed with the cash donations and volunteering hours included health, social inclusion, education and educational disadvantage, particularly in the context of having a good pipeline of talent and youth, and general community engagement. We are, therefore, able to articulate the impact of companies and that is just within the social impact space. We also gather information on environmental impacts and recently launched a low carbon pledge. We are also working with companies to help them to manage, report on and reduce their own emissions. The narrative of this agenda relates to a business having a major role to play in influencing its customers, as well as managing its own footprint. I refer to the lovely example Ms Heaney gave of a company talking to employees about how they get to work. We have those conversations on how businesses can create an impact. Therefore, what we do is multifaceted.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Ms Phelan have any idea of the percentage of companies' profits that are dedicated to initiatives to promote social responsibility?

Ms Bernadette Phelan:

No, we do not.

Ms Catherine Heaney:

We conducted a survey ahead of the new action plans in early 2017. It was intended to examine sentiment, rather than the moneys donated. That was because many companies djd not give money away as such. Instead, they might volunteer staff hours or just focus on the workplace. Some 83% of businesses reported that they engaged in some kind of CSR activity. If that is something in which the committee is particularly interested, that is where engagement is useful. It is particularly the case if data will assist the committee in making the case for CSR. It is good to have data because they are measurable. That will be very useful in planning for the next action plan.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I raised the point because inclusion initiatives were mentioned. We can all agree that poverty and class are the ultimate barriers to inclusion. Let us take companies operating in the docklands, for example. What inclusion initiatives do they have? The area suffers from high levels of deprivation. Do the companies offer apprenticeships or scholarships to local people who might want to secure employment in a multinational company located in their own backyard?

Dr. Céline McHugh:

I will take that question. I am only echoing what the others have said in response to the other points made. One of the things we are trying to do is gather case studies. Our website has an enormous amount of detail of what individual companies are doing. To give an example, we have a case study from A&L Goodbody which runs a writer in residence programme. It operates with a local school in the East Wall area, working in collaboration with Suas. The Central Bank of Ireland also has some initiatives, including an early learning project. It involves encouraging its own staff to take part in the programme. Returning to the win-win aspect, this is about staff development and having a positive impact in the local area. That always tends to be part of the endeavours. These initiatives are most effective for businesses when the win-win element is present in workplaces. They then become places where the staff involved can acquire more skills, in addition to benefiting the local community.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Dr. McHugh is not aware of apprenticeships or scholarships offered in areas of high deprivation and no records are kept. How is the effectiveness of the initiatives gauged? There is a list of some of the companies that offer these initiatives. We are talking, ultimately, about inclusiveness and poverty reduction. Having a job or an apprenticeship is a way out of poverty. However, if there are no figures and no way to quantify the effectiveness of these initiatives, there is no real way of knowing how successful all of these endeavours are and no way to hold companies to account in fulfilling their social responsibilities.

Dr. Céline McHugh:

Measurement is very important in this area and also one of the more challenging aspects. Companies are starting to report and measure the impacts and we are relying on them to do so. Ms Phelan has mentioned, in the context of Business in the Community Ireland, that measurement is becoming a stronger characteristic of this type of work because it is important that businesses capture the impact of their activities in this space. We are very interested in developing that aspect more. Several academics are also members of the forum and we are working with them to explore the impact of CSR in Ireland. There is a lot of information internationally but much less in Ireland. Such measurement is, therefore, one our work strands. The baseline survey was our first step into that area, but we would definitely like to get to the next level of detail.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It would determine how effective CSR was and which companies were complying. When I raised that issue, I was also hoping some structural initiatives would be under way. Having a company sponsoring a football team is all well and good, but in areas of high deprivation there is a need for something more concrete that will have a long-term benefit. People are not looking for charity or handouts. They are seeking something tangible and that is what CSR ought to be about. It should be the main goal and would also then be a measure of the effectiveness of CSR. Reference was also made to the plan setting out 17 actions across four goals, one of which was awareness. How is it measured?

Ms Catherine Heaney:

We measure awareness using several key performance indicators, KPIs. I refer to website analytics, interactions on social media and the number of interfaces we have at our meetings. We try to record all of that information. The forum is made up of voluntary members who have full-time jobs. As far as possible, however, when a voluntary member attends a speaking event, we try to ensure we have a record in order that we know roughly how many were there. Other measures we use include media hits and attendances at our events. Let us take the example of our CSR leaders' breakfast. Roughly 150 people attend the event, which gives us a sense of the number of initial contacts. If somebody attends or has an interaction, we hope it will be amplified by later communication. As Dr. McHugh stated, we have not had the capacity to measure everything because ours is a voluntary forum which is supported by public servants working across many disciplines. One of the reasons for this engagement was to gain the understanding of the committee and perhaps work together to establish what is needed and might be helpful in advancing the CSR agenda.

There is also the other point. We have often spoken about measuring, evaluating and how one gets SMEs to produce another report. This is the time of year to make tax returns and it is another day’s work on top of all the other work to be done in the seven days of the week. If we are asking businesses to report more, particularly SMEs which comprise the majority of businesses, it has to be easy for them to do so. There has to be a balance struck between reporting and how we use the information we receive.

It is an important point that the Deputy has raised, one about which we have not stopped talking since our first meeting in 2014. It is about figuring out how to do it best without over-encumbering businesses, particularly SMEs.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the European Union have oversight of how effective implementation is? Does the forum or the Department tie in at any stage?

Dr. Céline McHugh:

There is a unit in the Commission which oversees implementation but not in a formal reporting sense. We do not have to make formal reports to the unit, but we remain in contact with it. We also look at how other member states have engaged with the agenda. It is more pure learning than a formal reporting or engagement on it.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Many large corporations outsource work or terminate contracts purely to avoid their responsibilities. Do the delegates have anything to say about this? Does the forum have oversight in that regard? As a body, what does it do to counteract it?

Ms Catherine Heaney:

We serve only to promote corporate social responsibility, CSR, as a practice in the hope people will engage with it. We do not have an oversight or regulatory function. It goes back to my point about how CSR is not a panacea or a replacement for public policy. We promote examples of companies that are meeting or exceeding the norm in terms of what is required of them under law. That is what CSR is about, rather than having a regulatory function.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the forum ever highlight the ones that do not do it?

Ms Catherine Heaney:

No. We do not have a good or a bad list.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the forum see that there might be a benefit to be gained in doing so just to create awareness? It comes back to my question about how one gauges the level of awareness and makes other companies aware. It is about not endorsing bad practice and showing how effective the forum is as a body in performing its task.

Ms Catherine Heaney:

We have not really looked at it as an option. We have tried to remain as positive as we can because we have limited capacity and resources. The sting in highlighting best practice encourages people. Mol an óige agus tiocfaidh sí is the approach we have taken, but there may come a time where it will be useful to highlight it. Many organisations do it, particularly in the trade union movement. ICTU is a member of the CSR stakeholder forum.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are there legislative requirements for CSR to which multinationals or larger corporations must adhere on an annual basis? If so, are the targets set down and how are they measured?

Dr. Céline McHugh:

Obviously, there is a role for regulation in business and then there is what the forum is trying to achieve. There is the directive on non-financial reporting, for example. It applies to firms with more than 500 employees. There are guidelines on what they must report in non-financial activities such as board diversity and other such matters. On the whole, the main focus of the CSR stakeholder forum and its activities is on asking businesses to set higher standards for themselves and to inspire others to do the same. That sits with and compliments hard law. There is certainly a role for both.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Companies with fewer than ten employees are micro companies. Those with fewer than 50 are SMEs. Then there are the large international companies. Has the forum set down best practice targets to which they should aspire to achieve on an annual basis? Is there any way to collect that data? From what was said in reply to a previous question, there is not really.

Dr. Céline McHugh:

There is such a broad spectrum of activities within CSR in the first instance. That makes measuring quite challenging. There are ways to introduce standards, to which companies can aspire, that go beyond mere compliance with regulations. The business working responsibly mark which is National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, approved, is one way by which business can aspire to achieve.

Ms Bernadette Phelan:

Through our own work with businesses, it was in 2011 when we realised Irish businesses were maturing and embracing this agenda. We worked to introduce an ISO, International Organization for Standardization, guidance piece, ISO 26000. We partnered with the NSAI to develop it into a standard. It was a progressive step taken by Irish businesses.

We see legislation as the minimum standard that is for what businesses should be aiming. What we focus on is having a management framework in place for responsible business practice. Part of our mission and vision – this goes back to measurement and trying to put our arms around it - is adapting a standards-based approach. That means that we should be able to mature the measurement agenda and really understand what business looks like. Again, our ethos within the work we do is based on continuous improvement. No matter where a company is starting or its size, it is about looking where it is now and how it can improve. That type of ISO standard lends itself to having that impetus in reviewing where one is at and coming up with a gap analysis and progressing. We emphasise within the forum and the work a business does in the community does that it is very much in that narrative of painting a picture of what good looks and how it can support its business. The punishment for business is not engaging and then, as a result, not winning business, attracting the right staff or winning contracts. That is where the implications of not being responsible as a business ccome to the fore.

It is important that, within the ethos of the action plan, it be about Ireland being a centre for excellence in pursuing this agenda. That we have a standard that businesses are applying is a good evidence point. It shows that there is an appetite within the business community to increase our standards and to do it as a statement on what good looks like in an Irish business.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is positive. It is very much relevant to larger companies. To be fair, when one thinks of a SME or smaller company, one thinks about a corner shop at home. Such small businesses are intrinsically linked with good corporate social responsibility through, say, Tidy Towns, or sponsoring the local school. They are the go-to-people for the wider community all year round.

Recently, I met a group of businesses in IBEC from the midlands region which I represent. Many of them stated they were aspiring to embrace new energy efficiency measures and needed to approach the issue positively, efficiently and in a timely fashion.

Two years ago, the Government established a fund to help and incentivise people to make the transition. When I tabled a parliamentary question last week, I realised in the first tranche only 2% of the overall fund was given to private industry while 98% was given to local authorities and semi-State or public bodies. Do the witnesses have a role in identifying businesses that are embracing what they need to embrace, trying to do what is right and asking what the Government is doing to incentivise and encourage them? I was amazed that such a small percentage of the fund was allocated to private industry. Does the forum have a role in stating that the allocation of funding is wrong and that they should be allocated more widely?

Dr. Céline McHugh:

We have a very strong role in ensuring that businesses are informed about what schemes are available to them. For example, SEAI has presented to the forum and we endeavoured after that to put its presentation on our CSR hub and promote that through social media. Any new schemes we can share with the forum, which predominately comprises business members who can spread the word through their networks, are an important part of what we do. Other ways we can share information-----

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry to interject. It is all very well sharing the information that is available which is very positive, and I am sure all of us share information on schemes across the board. The schemes may be administrated in such a way that they do not facilitate the businesses we are meant to encourage and incentivise to make these changes. Do the witnesses have a role in advising or bringing pressure on the Department to the effect that the issue needs to be considered from another angle?

Ms Catherine Heaney:

The Deputy mentioned that a group from IBEC appeared before the committee. We do not see ourselves as a lobby group because our job is to support the implementation of the national plan. I am not aware of the issues he encountered with that scheme, but he identified a more important issue when he said that SMEs are sometimes harder to reach because there are more of them. An SME usually comprises between one and ten people and they are not always as on top of things as a local authority, which may have designated staff to look at what schemes are available. We understand those issues because we are trying to communicate the benefits of CSR and how if an organisation engages in CSR practice, it can gain a competitive advantage. That is a hard message to sell to a corner shop because it is difficult to reach such businesses. If we work positively to promote CSR practice across business, Ireland can become a CSR leader and it will become part of the genetics of organisations, which will start their day by understanding they have a responsibility to the environment. They will ask how they can make that work and from where they can get help. We have to make circumstances easier for SMEs in general and make sure that the available provisions are landing in the appropriate places at the right time.

Tom Neville (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My questions are similar to Deputy Troy's on SMEs, in particular in rural areas. I do not know how the witnesses manage their work in regard to SMEs versus multinationals. They probably gave an answer while I was not here, for which I apologise. There should not be pressure on the companies in rural Ireland run by one or two people. Unknown to them, subliminally and organically, they perform corporate social responsibly through sponsorship, running events and dealing with local clubs. I do not want businesses to be told that if they do not hit a target, they are not performing adequately. I want a more organic approach that is integrated with the community.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are a lot of positive aspects to the plan and its implementation, and the work in which the witnesses are involved. I recall watching a documentary which featured a group of major businesses in Texas that were congratulating themselves on how generous they were to the community. Of course, the core of their belief system was paying as little tax as possible. I want to hear that this is not a replacement for a fair and progressive taxation system, but rather a complement to that. I would like confirmation of that.

Ms Catherine Heaney:

The measures I undertook in my business would only have been called corporate social responsibly in the past ten years. Before that, they were what we did because we felt we had a responsibility to the community outside our door. I have a responsibility to the people who come in, work and drive the business every single day. They became important drivers for my business. As Deputy Neville said, one-person shows sponsor football teams and help at coffee mornings for Alzheimer's disease and so on. So much of that goes on. Our communities drive that and businesses are part of the community. We are all parents and people who are getting on with our daily lives and doing our best. We bring that to business.

I recall having a personal tension about calling what we were doing CSR. The first time we called it CSR was when we entered the Chambers Ireland Corporate Social Responsibility Awards because we did a lot of significant work in bringing probonocases and other issues we worked on. We felt it would be nice to get some acknowledgement. When we entered and won an award, I was slightly uncomfortable, but I have grown to accept that it is a very genuine practice. When I am sitting in a room with 40 people who will send an email at 10 p.m. to tell me they will do something, I know that is instinctive. It is something to be positively welcomed in business.

I read a lot about greenwashing, which is interesting. I have learned not to be so cynical. We have come on a journey and CSR is respected. It took until 2011 for the EU to have a CSR strategy. It is now recognised as being important for competitive advantage as well as for businesses to be more resilient and aware of stakeholders. There is a suggestion that businesses have suddenly started to prioritise stakeholders over profit and that stakeholders are now the drivers. I am a lot more comfortable with that business model, which is fairer, more resilient and better.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I like the connection because it is often the case that when one argues for strong public services and a fair and progressive taxation system in the sphere of politics, one sounds anti-business. We cannot deliver world-class public health services without a strong and vibrant economy and businesses that create sustainable jobs. Without that fundamental foundation, we cannot deliver public services. The witnesses are connecting the two areas, which is important work.

Deputy Troy was correct. SMEs based in communities throughout Ireland are asked to sponsor local football teams, Tidy Towns committees and so on. An almost overwhelming number of groups seek help from businesses. I have noticed an increase in the number of signs in retail shops stating, "No ticket sellers".

Is there a need for businesses to state they have a partnership with local Tidy Towns committees in respect of their pollination plan or looking after the nearby roundabout and that is what they put their sponsorship towards?

Many businesses are overwhelmed. Of course, there are wonderful people volunteering in the local football club, the Tidy Towns or the disabilities support group. I am from rural Ireland and know that, despite the challenges, we have a wonderful community and voluntary sector and a wonderful spirit of volunteerism. However, it can be overwhelming for a local business to have to shoulder all of that. Rather than closing the door and saying, "No more ticket sellers", is there a way of helping local businesses to specialise in one area?

Ms Catherine Heaney:

One of the most strategic ways of being a good corporate business partner or citizen is to align the business with whatever it is in the community that is suitable for the business. To go back to my example, when Áine in Cavan is making her chocolates, she is collaborating with the local school, the children are learning about pollination and they are getting out into the fresh air, which is healthy for them, and she is benefiting in her business because she is getting the pollen to use in her chocolates. That is a win-win. When it is a win-win, it makes more sense. It is good for business and it makes sense for business, and it also makes sense for the partner. They benefit more because they are learning and are getting more than just the €100 or €50. Businesses with tight margins do not have the answer to everybody's financial problems and they cannot make up for deficits in, say, voluntary sector organisations. It is very important that this is championed as well, and this is something we would advocate very strongly, as a forum.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was pleased to see the public sector are partners on this very representative forum. However, I have a concern. As public representatives, we are all very familiar with the fact there is always demand for services, and it could be the public sector or the NGO sector providing critical services on behalf of the State. What I would like to know is whether the forum ensures that the businesses it is working with are not replacing what should be funded by the State but are adding value and building on the resources from the State. Is that what the forum is seeking to achieve?

Dr. Céline McHugh:

That is one of the points we are making. This is not a replacement for public policy but there are many potential complementarities, for example, things like policy priorities around prompt payments in terms of our own Department working with businesses to introduce a voluntary code. That type of engagement can be quite powerful to achieve a policy goal without it being something that businesses have to deliver. It is that partnering approach, of which Healthy Ireland is another example. There are plenty of opportunities for businesses to get involved in initiatives that play to some public policy objectives and they can be supportive of and add value to them.

We have another example in the Open Doors Initiative, where a group of businesses are coming together to focus on social inclusion and pathways to work, for example, for socially excluded segments. Again, that is exploring how businesses can make best use of the policies and schemes that are already in place but add value to them through working together on some of the challenges, for example, to improve take-up. That sort of partnering can be quite powerful. It is not a replacement; it is just an additional layer.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to focus on increasing participation of women and gender equality in the workforce, and the work the forum might have done or intends to do in this regard. A practical example of a company that is leading the way on one aspect of this is Diageo, which announced it was giving 26 paid paternity leave entitlements to its male employees. It has set the bar quite high and I would imagine it makes it a very attractive workplace for somebody who has young children or wants to have children. That is a good example of a company trying to do more than just the minimum.

For women in the workplace, the gender pay gap still very much exists in this country. When women take time out to have children, they tend to limit their opportunities for promotion or delay promotion opportunities. Very often in the interview process, if a woman is of a particular age, she is automatically disadvantaged because she is seen as being of higher risk. It would be good to hear the witnesses' thoughts on this issue.

My colleague, Deputy O'Loughlin, and I drafted legislation around shared parental leave based on an acknowledgement that current entitlements mean there is a difficulty in funding additional leave. The idea behind the legislation was that the existing maternity benefit could be transferred to a woman's partner if she decided she did not want to take the full six months, or that she could not because she is self-employed and running her own business. I would appreciate the thoughts of the witnesses on that.

I strongly believe the legislation would have helped a little bit to level the playing field for young women. Unfortunately, and in the interests of full disclosure, it is not being supported by Government, which was very disappointing to us. However, it did receive cross-party support on Second Stage from every other grouping.

Ms Catherine Heaney:

There are probably a couple of people who have more to say on this than I do. Gender equality and the place of women in the workplace has always been a very important part of the work of the forum. Some businesses can be a little ahead of Government and that is why we are highlighting those important practices like the recent decision by Diageo, which we highlighted at our CSR leaders breakfast this year. That puts a bit of peer pressure and moral pressure on other business in the absence of legislation. However, as Dr. McHugh said, common practice, or even limited practice, is not a replacement for legislation but, obviously, that is not our role. We often talk about the carrot and stick, and sometimes it is the stick and the carrot. Unfortunately, we do not have the stick, we just have the carrot, and that is really all we can go with at the moment.

There are many companies that are particularly strong examples. International and domestic companies are bringing very important practice into the workforce because they realise they need to. While it should not always happen this way, when there is a labour shortage, there is an imperative and things are speeded up with great haste. The Deputy never knows: her legislation may have another turn soon enough. Businesses are finding it difficult to retain and hire staff.

Ms Bernadette Phelan:

Dr. McHugh referenced that the non-financial reporting directive includes reporting on gender at board level. As a norm within what good practice in a business looks like, it is about publicly reporting on the gender pay gap. I believe that will become more normal within business and if a business wants to be perceived as a responsible one, it is about moving voluntarily into that space. It is quite powerful to see companies making voluntary declarations.

The other piece I would add is that businesses very much understand that to sell the right service or deliver the right product, they have to mirror their customer base. Through work we are doing around an initiative called The Inclusive Employer blueprint, it is very much about attracting and retaining talent. There is very strong data around the business case for having good gender mix, good ethnic mix and good socioeconomic mix in terms of being innovative and creating the right products. As the evidence becomes clearer, leading businesses are accepting that the "why" of needing to have diversity is now gone, and there is a real focus on how we do it. We would see many very progressive practices happening in the businesses we work with. As we have more leaders being comfortable standing up and saying what they want, more will follow, like Diageo. I believe businesses are extremely mindful of it and the reporting practice will really help us within that.

Tom Neville (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I worked in recruitment for a number of years. In the same vein as Deputies Chambers' question, I want to ask about covert discrimination against older people in the workforce, which has been rife for the past 20 years, in my experience.

It is not just an Irish but a global problem. What does Ms Heaney think? About 18 months to two years ago the Government introduced an initiative for people over 50 years who were long-term unemployed. It gave them a grant of €10,000. Ms Heaney reminded me of something. There is something I have noticed among older men, in particular, who have worked on building sites as carpenters, for example. It is very physical manual labour, to which their bodies cannot stand up by the time they reach the age of 50 or 55 years. They come off CE schemes and into my office to tell me that no one will hire them because they are 56 or 57 years of age. Has the forum discussed this issue?

Ms Catherine Heaney:

We have. Diversity in the workplace is a pillar of the current plan. We are trying to highlight best practice as much as we can and as many case studies as possible. Workplaces really benefit from having diversity. When we are all the same age and look the same, the same decisions happen.

Tom Neville (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand that. I do not mean to put Ms Heaney on the spot because I heard the answer she gave Deputy Lisa Chambers which was comprehensive. I refer to the specific cohort mentioned and age.

Ms Catherine Heaney:

We have not looked at that cohort, in particular. It is interesting that the Deputy has raised the issue.

Tom Neville (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I recruited from everywhere, from SMEs to multinationals. I recruited across the globe, into Asia, Australia and the United States and the discrimination experienced was the same everywhere. I am flagging it as something at which the forum should look.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It also put something in my mind. The committee recently examined the issues of apprenticeships and work permits. In the course of our work we learned that this year there were 15,500 apprentices in Ireland, of whom only 2%, 400, were women. Two apprentices, a man and a woman, came before the committee. The man was a career changer, someone who had changed his career. He was 36 years old and the lady, 23. She was inspirational. She was a qualified electrician, having started with the ESB at the age of 19 years. She said that of the 200 trainees in her class, four were women, of whom two had dropped out. She was a qualified electrician at 23 years of age, having attended college for six months and found that it was not for her. We are bombarding Ms Heaney with ideas, but a more gender balanced approach to apprenticeships would surely be great to see. The position is changing slowly. There are many more apprenticeships available. As Deputy Neville said, they used to be in the wet trades such as plastering.

Tom Neville (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I qualified as a woodwork teacher. That is where I started out. There were thirty of us in the class, of whom three were girls, two of whom finished the course and one dropped out.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are now many apprenticeships and pathways available to "earn as you learn". We have heard that when pupils are in transition year, a pathway is pointed to for them, but it is very academic and almost intellectual snobbery. We must start encouraging younger people to keep in mind that they can earn with their hands too. We need all of the trades to be filled. There are many permits going to people from outside the European Union with specific trades, as the delegates will be aware, owing to the lack of skills here. Will they comment on this issue?

Dr. Céline McHugh:

The committee is reflecting the breadth and wide scope of CSR. Members have mentioned several themes that are worth exploring in more depth as we will enter into a new phase at the conclusion of the current plan in 2020, but we will not be able to go in depth into such a wide range of issues. Nonetheless, our central modus operandi has been that where there is good practice, we will elevate it. The idea of bringing forward examples of good practice in companies that have embraced diversity------

Tom Neville (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I wish to follow on from what the Chairman said. From my research on the subject, we are missing the boat completely in gaining a commercial advantage by using older people who have all of this knowledge. When they walk out the door, it is all gone when it could be harnessed and propel the commercial capacity of a company to earn more profits, while there would, obviously, also be a kick-back in terms of social responsibility. It happens everywhere all the time when people leave with this knowledge.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask Deputy Lisa Chambers to come back in before we conclude.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the gender equality issue, I note that the definition of CSR is that it is the responsibility of enterprises to monitor their impact on society. One of the biggest impacts on society which we are only beginning to seeing is where two parents who are working full time are like two ships passing in the night. There are pressures on families with children and childminders. There is pressure to get back to work and work longer hours, as well as the inflexibility of the workplace and so on. It would be interesting, from the State's perspective, to do some work on CSR and the value to the next generation in the caring of children by both parents. We must look after the next generation as they will run the country eventually in both the public and private sectors. We need to look at how companies organise the working day and the inflexibility in so many companies as it affects both parents. There is a lot stress and pressure at home, with less time for family life. It would be great to see workplaces acknowledge the value to be gained in looking after the next generation.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would anyone like to make a final comment?

Dr. Céline McHugh:

I thank the Deputy for that suggestion. Some of it plays into mainstream policy developments in terms of future job creation. There is a role for the CSR forum to contribute to the conversation on flexible working, remote working and so on which are of interest in increasing participation in the labour force, while acknowledging that it brings additional challenges in its own right.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is about acknowledging that people have an important job to do somewhere else that benefits society in the long run.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before we conclude, I forgot to say we had received apologies from Senator Humphreys.

I thank the delegates for attending what has been a very worthwhile engagement in which we have touched on many areas. I especially thank Ms Heaney and Ms Phelan for their voluntarism. We touched on this issue, but I believe volunteers are the backbone of every community and part of society. We have all learned a great deal today and will certainly pass on their message. We hope it will not be long before they are before the committee again.