Mr. John Dunne:

I will echo the comments made by other people.

I do not think anyone, including the HSE, knows their cost. That is not a cheap shot. My last job, when I worked in the public sector, was to approve a budget for an organisation like the one with which I am now involved. I went through it with a fine tooth comb, put lots of red lines through it, and ironically, three months later, I found myself running that organisation, trying to deliver the project on the budget. I learned how sheltered the public sector is in terms of costing a service. It is something the committee could usefully investigate. Furthermore, if the committee does get an answer, I would be very happy to come back to the committee and give it the benefit of our insight on the cost structure that is being presented to it because we do it every day. The HSE and its managers, to be fair, do not see most of the costs associated with the service; they see the direct pay cost but they do not see the rest.

The number of people we are losing to the HSE is not something I would over-egg but it is certainly true. In 2011, in the good old days, when a FETAC qualification was specified, we trained all our staff up to that level. It cost us tens of thousands of euro. People said they could not afford it but we said that was the standard, we said we would meet it and we will. We have now lost those staff. We do not spend money achieving a standard that is not required because if we do, the people will be taken away from us. There is a dysfunction there with a shortage of staff and the staff are getting cannibalised. We keep an eye on the staff turnover metrics and we are pretty happy with our retention rate but we definitely do lose people, not only to the HSE but also to the nursing home sector. When people get to a point where they need a block of work on which they can rely, we cannot provide that, and they go to work in the HSE or a nursing home. People will work in our sector only if casual flexible hours suit them.. Whether that is good or bad, that is the reality.

Deputy O'Reilly's argument for a set of national conditions are relevant. I do not have any difficulty with that but the same conditions would have to apply everywhere. I would say we are demanding of our staff in a way that I am not convinced, procedurally, the HSE is. That is an issue that needs to be sorted out.

On weekends and public holidays, we just got a request from a part of the country where the HSE asked if we would help at Christmas and the new year and we said we certainly would. Our own packages are required to keep working over Christmas, we are a 365 day organisation. If we are due to do something on Christmas day, we do it.