Mr. Pat McLoughlin:

We do not have information specifically on the cost of HSE care but I absolutely take the point about reaching full employment. We get about €2.4 million from the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection for our community employment, CE, schemes. About one in five of our staff is on one of those schemes. We have situations where we find those CE workers difficult to replace. What happens in that situation is the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection shows a saving and the Department of Health has to fight for the additional resource, perhaps 19 hours, being used by that CE employee. I have raised the issue with two Ministers of State. I have said it does not make sense. There is a pot of money, about €2.4 million, and we could put it towards a proper training programme and a career structure so people can work in areas such as dementia or Alzheimer care and be available in the marketplace. Some private providers have come together on that issue. It needs to be made attractive. We are losing staff to the HSE. I do not want to over-egg that issue but we have noticed a trend that staff who are working part time with us have advised us they are working part time with a private operator and doing private hours for individuals. That puts individual staff members in a very difficult position. They are dealing with three sets of rules and policies and procedures. They are dealing with Garda vetting for providers. Safeguarding issues may be also dealt with differently in different organisations. The situation of part-time carers is very difficult. It would be much better if there was a proper career structure and training pathway in place and that the money from the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection was put towards a proper training programme in health. That is the view of the Alzheimer Society of Ireland.