Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Helen McEntee and her officials and I invite her to make her opening statement.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Vice Chair and members for giving me the opportunity to discuss the motion referred to the select committee for consideration. The motion Dáil Éireann has been asked to approve reads:

That Dáil Éireann approves the terms of the Enhanced Partnership and Cooperation Agreement between the European Union and its Member States, of the one part, and the Republic of Kazakhstan, of the other part, signed at Astana on 21 December 2015, a copy of which was laid before the Dáil on 6 July 2018.

This agreement is the first of a new generation of co-operation agreements between the European Union and the former Soviet states of central Asia. It is intended to provide a framework for strengthening the bilateral relationship between the EU and Kazakhstan. In addition to facilitating stronger economic relations, the agreement aims to enhance political dialogue and to promote peace and stability. At its core is a commitment to strengthen the promotion, protection and implementation of fundamental freedoms, human rights, and the respect for democratic principles, the rule of law, and good governance.

The agreement provides for a comprehensive dialogue between the EU and Kazakhstan and co-operation in a wide range of areas, such as trade, justice, economic and financial co-operation, energy, environment and climate change, culture, education, and research. It also provides for the provisional application of certain aspects that fall under EU competence until such time as all EU member states ratify the agreement and those aspects come into force. The agreement has been applied provisionally since 1 April 2016, mainly in the area of trade and economic co-operation.

Since gaining independence, Kazakhstan has become an increasingly important partner in the promotion of peace and security, regionally and internationally. It is currently a non-permanent member of the UN Security Council and previously served on the UN Human Rights Council from 2012 to 2015. Ireland has worked well with Kazakhstan at a multilateral level. When Kazakhstan was the Chair-in-Office of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE, in 2010, Ireland served as the Chair of the Forum for Security Co-operation. Kazakhstan continues to play a prominent role in the OSCE as the chair of the economic and environmental dimension.

Ireland formally recognised Kazakhstan as an independent State in 1991, following which diplomatic relations were established. Our embassy in Moscow is accredited on a secondary basis. Although we do not have a large footprint in central Asia, several Irish companies have an established presence in Kazakhstan. Bilateral trade consists mainly of Irish exports to Kazakhstan. In 2017, our total exports amounted to €34 million and total imports, €450,000. A double taxation agreement between Ireland and Kazakhstan entered into force in December 2017. This will allow Ireland to develop greater opportunities for trade and investment with Kazakhstan, including in the education and agricultural sectors.

It is important to acknowledge concerns about the challenging human rights environment in Kazakhstan. Together with the EU, Ireland continues to encourage reform within Kazakhstan, particularly in the areas of rule of law, freedom of expression or belief, and human rights. The EU and Kazakhstan have an annual dialogue in the area of human rights and this agreement provides for further engagement in this important area. Encouraging steps have been taken by Kazakhstan, including on reform of the penal system and greater participation of civil society in policy decision-making. The agreement we are discussing specifically provides for co-operation regarding civil society in order to allow for more engagement between the EU and Kazakhstan in this area and encourage the active participation of civil society in the areas of economic, social, and political co-operation.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to present this motion. This agreement will not only broaden and deepen the EU’s relationship with Kazakhstan and provide for closer economic and political ties, but will also provide the framework for further constructive dialogue on human rights. I hope the committee will support the motion and that Dáil Éireann will approve the terms of this agreement in order that Ireland may proceed to ratification in the near future. I am happy to take questions.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State.

I will open the floor to the two members who want to ask questions and then I have some questions myself.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for her presentation. Places like Kazakhstan are important, not alone in trade terms, but also in our contact with that part of the world. We need to think beyond the pale when we look at what will happen with Britain exiting the EU. We have to be very conscious that we are going to end up as an island nation, stuck out in the Atlantic with no near neighbour who is a member of the European Union. I am very fearful that it will be very easy to be forgotten if we are not regularly involved. The contact with Britain through various means has been a great advantage for people looking to this part of Europe. Friendship with Kazakhstan - not that there would be a great deal of trade initially - can be beneficial where we are at one end and they are at the other. I attend today to support the Minister of State and the proposal before us but also point out that we have to raise awareness publicly at every opportunity that we have a bigger task on our shoulders with the prospect of Britain exiting the EU. There has not been enough discussion within this country as to what is going to happen. We are all so gobsmacked - at least I am – by the hullabaloo about Britain's exit that we have forgotten both where we are going to stand into the future and the fact that part of this island will not be in the EU either.

These are very serious issues for this committee that we should highlight and get people thinking about as to how we are going to improve our contact with other parts of Europe. I am not exaggerating when I say this but everybody knows, particularly people of our vintage, if the Cathaoirleach does not mind me saying so, because we have been around a long time, that it is a fact that before Ireland joined the EU, we were stuck out there and we were a small, undeveloped country. I do not want to see anything happening as a result of Britain's exit that will lead to the same happening again. We need to make contact and be conscious of our need to become part and parcel of welcoming in countries like Kazakhstan as members into the whole trade situation, and to look ahead to what way we are going to deal with the situation we are going to be faced with.

It would be important that at some early date, we as a committee should have a general discussion as to where we think we are going with the exit of Britain and not be hanging around waiting for it to happen, not that I suggest that we are. The way things are going there, one would not know what is going to happen. It is vitally important that we keep up to date and keep Ireland's future out there in red lights.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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On a different vein, something I have raised on a number of occasions relating to other EU trade agreements and neighbourhood agreements is the question of the human rights record of a country and a regime that, if these measures are passed, is receiving supports and endorsements from the EU, which is how they are used. I note what the Minister of State has said on the changes or improvements in the human rights regime in Kazakhstan.

The improvements have been very minor in the context of the abuses perpetrated in that country.

I am aware that in the past the European Union funded a project entitled, Enhancing Criminal Justice in Kazakhstan. It also co-funded support programmes for the Kazakh authorities to improve the quality and efficiency of the justice system. However, human rights workers and the international bodies that have examined the reports have stated the officially presented outcomes do not in any way correspond with reality. The reality is that 140 participants in peaceful protests in May and June are being prosecuted and persecuted for attending the rallies. One of the key human rights defenders, Elena Semenova, was banned from leaving the country to raise these issues at an international parliamentary assembly. These are not the actions of a country that embraces fully the human rights conditions set by the European Union. Does the Minister of State think it should withhold funding from Kazakhstan, unless it makes genuine progress in dealing with human rights issues, rather than seek the implementation of a co-operation agreement? In particular, we know that the co-operation agreement with Israel which includes very strict, or what look like very strict, sanctions, including suspension of the agreement if the human rights conditions are breached, but that has never happened. I do not know of any EU co-operation agreement, to date, that has been suspended owing to a breach of the conditions and protocols set by the European Union. It is inappropriate or, at the very least, premature for us to sign up to this agreement. If we were to withhold signing it, we would do a lot more for the people of Kazakhstan. The regime has ruled with an iron fist and might be discouraged from perpetrating human rights abuses in the hope it could reach an agreement in the future. If we sign up to the agreement, it will view it as an endorsement and carry on regardless.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I shall ask some questions and the Minister of State can then answer all of the questions together.

I note that the agreement has been provisional for a couple of years and that there has been dialogue annually on human rights. I also notice the various things the European Union has called on the Kazakh Government to do in dealing with human rights issues, including the media not having freedom of expression. The European Union did call for a substantial review of the dialogue on human rights in Kazakhstan. I also know that the Kazakh Government has created a civil society consultative platform. It appears from what is contained in the document that it is not doing as much as the European Union has called on it to do. To follow on from what Deputy Ó Snodaigh asked, has the Minister of State seen any sign of progress?

When one analyses the trade figures, the agreement seems to be more beneficial to Ireland than Kazakhstan. Do the Irish companies that operate in Kazakhstan provide proper conditions for their workers?

Other EU countries have not ratified the agreement. Have they conveyed the reasons they have not done so? Do they have the same issues with the agreement as Ireland?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman and members for their comments and questions. I will respond first to the comments made by Deputy Barrett. I agree with him that we need to look further afield. If anything, Brexit highlights that sometimes we rely on our neighbours more than we thought we did.

Certainly, while our closest neighbours within the EU will continue to be our largest market, providing us with access to more than 500 million people, we need to continue to engage with countries further afield. Working with our EU colleagues to develop not just this partnership but other partnerships and co-operation agreements is very important, especially in Asia, central Asia and the Pacific region. We have our own Asia-Pacific organisation here, chaired by a former colleague, Mr. Alan Dukes, which is doing a huge amount of work to create new links and strengthen those ties and areas of co-operation already in existence. We launched Global Ireland 2025 earlier this year, which is a roadmap or plan to double our global footprint by 2025. That plan is not just focused on Europe but also on North America, South America, Asia and Africa. While Brexit is not something that we wanted to happen, it has certainly opened our eyes and has focused our attention on the need to strengthen existing relationships and build new ones elsewhere, and this agreement is very much part of that process.

In terms of funding and the support we have given, there was a provisional agreement in place before the overall ratification. We are one of five countries that have yet to ratify the agreement. I cannot answer the question as to why the other four countries have not yet ratified it. On other occasions we have been one of only two or three countries, so we are not the last to ratify it this time. Approximately 350 projects have been funded since the country became independent in 1991. Funding amounted to €180 million over 27 years, which is not a huge amount on an annual basis. That said, the funding has been used to strengthen the capacity of the country's regional and local government system, to support reform of the justice sector, and to improve the capacity of the public sector to introduce social and economic reforms. While the amounts are minimal, taking those moneys away would do more harm than good.

In terms of delaying the ratification and not letting that happen, by ratifying the agreement we can influence Kazakhstan from within the ring. We can work with its leaders as well as with people on the ground in civil society, but if we do not ratify the agreement, we can only observe from the outside and watch while other countries, states or unions work with Kazakhstan.

The agreement covers a number of key areas, including a framework for trade. The latter can be used as a mechanism to address a lot of human rights issues. Other areas to be covered include people to people relations, civil society co-operation as well as co-operation in education, culture, research and innovation. The more that we can engage on all of these levels, the more effective we will be in encouraging reform. As the Vice Chairman has mentioned, we engage on human rights issues not just through the EU but also through the Council for Europe and the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE. We have regular dialogue in that regard, and having this agreement in place only enhances such dialogue. It will allow us to continue to highlight the fact that there is still a threat of radicalisation and violent extremism in Kazakhstan, which is a significant threat to civil society and has resulted in violations of a number of fundamental human rights. Again, by engaging on more than just an economic level, but in the context of education, culture, people to people relations and so on, we can address these issues. In terms of the funding piece, it would be foolish to stop funding projects in Kazakhstan, particularly given the fact that these projects are focused on people, human rights, democracy and the rule of law, all of which are of fundamental importance to the EU.

The Chairman also asked about benefits accruing from this agreement. It is beneficial for Ireland and the rest of the EU to have a closer relationship and partnership with Kazakhstan. Closer integration will also benefit Kazakhstan. The EU is its largest trading partner at the moment and as we engage further, that partnership will grow further. The more support that we can provide, the better. Some of the areas covered in the agreement include energy, transport, environment, public health, consumer protection, education, training, youth and cultural co-operation. The agreement will assist in the production of better quality products. The focus is on business, as well as on better functioning of the judiciary, the rule of law and enhanced transparency, all of which will help citizens.

It is beneficial to both sides, but the more we work with them and are included in the fold, the more we can do to support them.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I understand all of that. We have had this debate around quite a number of countries. The EU and the developed world often encourage countries that are looking towards democratisation but have harsh regimes. The EU often encourages them, or bribes them, whichever way one wants to see it. If they tackle a list of human rights abuses and have more transparent elections, we offer to trade with them, endorse them and enter a trade agreement. This falls under that category. That is not a bad thing if one gets product.

I have not been to Kazakhstan but looking from the outside, the problem is that we can only depend on those we trust, whom we have heard in this committee, and they have given various examples of regimes, with which we have had trade agreements, flouting the human rights conditions set by the EU once the agreement is signed. One question which the Minister of State may not be able to answer is whether any EU trade agreement has been suspended because of human rights abuses. In every single one of the early years of this century, we argued in committees pertaining to foreign affairs or the EU for suspending Israel from the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership on the very same principles outlined here, seeking to tie trade to improvement in human rights. That never seems to happen despite very blatant human rights abuses. I am afraid that if we sign up to the likes of what is before us today, the same will happen. I am firmly of the belief that sometimes if the carrot of an EU trade agreement is dangled in front of some countries, they will keep moving towards the goal, but once we sign up, they ignore it. That is my belief.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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One of the most important points raised in the papers before us is that point 13 calls on the EU to prioritise consistently the issues of the rule of law, democracy, fundamental freedoms and human rights in its political dialogue with Kazakhstan. The more we get involved and pursue that sort of programme through the EU, the greater the chances of getting the changes we are looking for. If we give the people the two fingers, they will walk away. As a small, independent country, Ireland can do an awful lot more by being inside the tent and trying to change people. The more we mix with business people in Kazakhstan and other places like it, the more chance we have of influencing. Everybody is very conscious of the need for changes to be made and it is recognised in the papers before us. We should ask the Minister to make certain that the EU keeps an eye on this. We are endorsing this on the basis that these changes should happen.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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That brings us back to the point I made about the potential for Irish companies that are trading in Kazakhstan to lead by example insofar as the Department, or the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation, has any engagement with them.

The report on business and human rights was a long time coming but it did come, and we should be implementing what the report recommends for Irish business.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. To answer the question about whether supports have ever been stopped, I am not aware of that happening. There are sanctions on Turkey and Russia, but even with sanctions in place we have always continued to engage with countries. The EU was established and developed on the basis of dialogue. It is underpinned by the key fundamentals of democracy, human rights, freedom of expression and the rule of law. Any engagement that we have is underpinned by those core values. To be able to work with countries and incorporate those rights into their overall agenda, we need to be around the table engaging and talking to them. As I have said, the figure of €180 million over 27 years is a small amount, but it is a significant gesture of our desire to work with them. It is important that the funding goes directly to the people for whom it is meant. That is the manner in which the EU has always operated and will continue to operate. From my own point of view, working with my colleagues around the European table, these issues are continuously raised at every committee meeting on human rights. Again, I stress that we are much better within the fold than outside looking in. That is the best way to move forward.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I would have more faith in it if there were occasions where trade agreements were suspended. Suspension does not mean ending. It applies until our partners get their act together. Deputy Barrett referred to the document. The document points out some of the failures which are not acceptable. Point 20 asks for an end to judicial persecution, harassment and imprisonment of independent journalists. These are issues we are asking them to tackle. What if they do not? Do we just say that an agreement is in place and hope they do if we ask nicely? If this is passed it does not come up for review. As I have said, the call for some agreements to be suspended over time has not been heeded. If Ireland calls for it, that does not mean the EU 27 or EU 28 will listen. This is an EU agreement, so in some ways it goes out of our hands once we have signed it. It is not in our gift to automatically suspend it. If it was a bilateral agreement we could have a parliamentary debate and a greater influence. It is a concern I have had around several of these agreements. At this stage I cannot vote for it.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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That has been noted. However, all we can do as a select committee is consider and report. I need to bring the meeting to a conclusion. I thank the Minister of State for engaging with us in the exchanges we have had.