Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees

Thursday, 26 April 2018

Public Accounts Committee

Business of Committee

9:00 am

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are joined from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General by Mr. Andy Harkness, director of audit, and Ms Maureen Mulligan, deputy director of audit.

Apologies have been received from Deputy Shane Cassells and Deputy Pat Deering.

The minutes of the meeting of 19 April 2018 have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed.

The next item covers matters arising. I do not thing there is anything arising that will not come up in the course of our agenda.

The next item is correspondence. There are three categories of correspondence. Category A relates to briefing documents and opening statements. No. 1241A from Ms Oonagh McPhillips, acting Secretary General, Department of Justice and Equality, includes an opening statement and briefing for today's meeting. We will note and publish it.

Category B relates to correspondence from Accounting Officers and Ministers, follow-up correspondence to Committee of Public Accounts meetings and other items for publishing.

No. 1223B was held over from the last meeting. It was from Mr. Michael Nolan of Transport Infrastructure Ireland. This is follow-up information requested at our meeting on 22 March 2018. We had a query and we agreed to hold it over. The response has been submitted and I believe it deals with the queries raised the last day. The document is available but we did not discuss it. We can note and publish it. If anyone wants to follow up on the matter please do so subsequently. No. 1248A is the opening statement for today.

No. 1231B is from Mr. David Leahy, chief executive of Galway and Roscommon Education and Training Board, dated 16 April 2018. We had a query on the financial statements for 2016 and in particular the disclosure relating to compliance with national procurement. The correspondence provides details of the steps taken to address this issue. Do members want to note the document?

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to comment on that. It is an interesting letter. It is follow-up correspondence from discussions we had with the education and training boards.

My comment relates to procurement. The last paragraph of the letter refers to having two people in procurement, one of whom is a temporary clerical officer, in an organisation of that size with a budget of approximately €95 million as being completely inadequate. Galway and Roscommon ETB has highlighted to the Department of Education and Skills the urgent need for a fit-for-purpose IT system and additional qualified staff for procurement to ensure compliance.

The issue of procurement is coming up a good deal and we are criticising Accounting Officers and organisations for a lack of adherence to rules. If it is the case that there is a shortage of staff and difficulty with information technology systems and so on then this is a problem. To be fair to this education and training board, those responsible have pointed it out to us and they have flagged that there is concern from their perspective. Can we write to the Department on the back of the letter, highlight the point and ask for an explanation with regard to the IT systems, the number of staff and the levels of support given to organisations like ETBs and so on?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy. The first two sentences in that paragraph are stunning. Galway and Roscommon Education and Training Board says it is committed to complying with procurement legislation but that the current financial system is not fit for purpose and the board is not permitted to purchase a new one. That is a damning indictment of the Department. Of course we will take this up with the Department immediately. Deputy Murphy and Deputy Connolly are next.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There was an amalgamation, as we know. I would have thought that following the amalgamation there would have been a combined procurement approach by the ETBs with only the more localised matters dealt with at local level. There would be advantages in combining purchases in terms of spending power. Can we include that as a question to the Department about an overall approach to procurement within that sector? I figure that is where the savings and benefits of the combined spending power arise.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Galway and Roscommon Education and Training Board has highlighted the matter to the Department of Education and Skills. That is what is important – those responsible have highlighted it. It will be interesting to see the nature of the response.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are going to write to the Department of Education and Skills and ask for a detailed response, point by point, specifically and to the last paragraph. It is a damning indictment. We are trying to talk about procurement. The education and training board maintains that the system is not fit for purpose and that the board is not permitted to correct it. That is from the Department.

We want a point-by-point explanation. I imagine the Department will be before the committee in due course but this is a serious indictment. If this is the case across the ETB sector, it is no wonder we have problems in the sector. We want a detailed point by point response to that from the Department of Education and Skills.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is relevant for procurement.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The question is whether those responsible did anything in terms of national procurement when they were setting it up. That is agreed.

No. 1232B is from Mr. Ray Mitchell of the Health Service Executive in response to the committee's request for a copy of internal audit reports regarding Our Lady's Hospice in Harold's Cross in Dublin. The correspondence includes two audit reports and a number of related documents that were released under freedom of information legislation. We will discuss the matter.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I requested this information, as did several other members, some weeks ago. I am pleased we have got the report.

The first thing to say is that the report is heavily redacted. We do not have full information. Several things strike me when reading the report. This is an audit report into a section 38 organisation. It chimes with similar reports we have seen of organisations that have had similar problems and where many red flags have been raised. Cheques have been pre-signed and HSE funds have been used to fund staff gifts and gratuities. There are issues relating to management of conflicts of interest. Over €100,000 was spent on a building where there was no certainty about the organisation owning the building.

Notwithstanding all these failures, if we are to call them failures - and that is being generous – the response from the organisation was phenomenal. I have read the audit report. Those responsible throw their hands up in the air in astonishment that there is even an investigation or examination of these issues taking place. The previous chief executive, who was the Accounting Officer at the time, said that she knew nothing about the audit being carried out.

The arrogance of the organisation in how it responded to the issues is alarming, particularly in view of the fact that it gets a very substantial amount of funding from the taxpayer. I ask that this issue be dealt with as part of our work programme. We have been here before far too many times. We raised this issue when the Comptroller and Auditor General was present at a meeting a number of weeks ago and he helpfully pointed out that this was a look-back at a specific period and that changes have been made since. The report covers the period from 2010 to 2014. Since then, this committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General's office have shone a spotlight on section 38 organisations. We have had the HSE director general before us. When I read the audit report and the response from very high-ranking people within the organisation, I was concerned. I am not convinced that the type of changes we have been led to believe have been made in these organisations have actually been embedded. I do not think we should just note this report and move on. It is an internal audit report in which sections are colour coded in white, yellow and red to characterise the seriousness of the issues that are raised. There is an awful lot of red here. Red flags are being raised for us and it is our job to pay attention to them. I am asking that we bring the HSE in again and, if necessary, the current CEO of the hospice at some point. We should put this on our work programme and give it serious consideration.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is absolutely correct in everything he says and we will do what he requests. Essentially, the response is unsatisfactory from the committee's point of view. We wrote asking for copies of a report and the organisation responded by pointing to reports that it had already published on foot of freedom of information, FOI, requests. Those reports, by the way, are heavily redacted. We have received nothing of significance that is not already in the public arena. We will ask again because those involved must accept that the Committee of Public Accounts is entitled to a little more information than that made available to any individual under FOI legislation. We have been treated as if we are just ordinary citizens requesting a copy of a particular document. The response is unsatisfactory. We will also ask the organisation to reconsider the report and the redactions because the request is coming from this committee, not from an individual citizen. We will hold this over for now. We should not dignify the response by publishing something that has already been published under FOI.

Are we agreed that we should write to the organisation again, requesting a more detailed response, minus the redactions? Should we put Our Lady's Hospice and Care Services in Harold's Cross on notice that we intend to invite its representatives to appear before us? Are members of the view that we should do so?

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We should say that we "may" invite the organisation to appear, pending any further information we receive.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will write to-----

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What is contained in the redacted document is serious enough for us to have the organisation and the HSE come before us.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The document we got just contained a list of reasons why, under FOI, the original request was refused. That was sent to us but I am sure it was put up on the website ages ago. We will write back and put the organisation on notice that when we receive this information, we may decide to invite representatives in at that stage. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next item is No. 1233B, correspondence from Professor Patrick O'Shea, President of University College Cork, dated 17 April. At our meeting on 29 March 2018, we agreed to request further information on the university’s 2016 financial statements. Information is provided on the Cork University Foundation and on procurement. It is good that the university has agreed to provide information on the foundation and to supply copies of its financial statements. However, when one looks at the document that was submitted, one sees that is a copy of Cork University Foundation's "abridged" financial statements. We have only partial financial statements here and have not received the full financial statements. I have looked at the documents supplied. A balance sheet is attached but it contains no details of any income or expenditure whatsoever. I note that at the end of the year, the foundation had cash in hand of €3.588 million. We will thank the university for the information received because it is a big step in the right direction to get the foundation accounts. However, we want to see the complete rather than the abridged version of the statements.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Can the Chairman clarify the difference between abridged and full financial statements?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Harkness may be able to help with that question.

Mr. Andy Harkness:

Under company law and in accordance with certain rules, companies can reduce the amount of disclosures contained in the financial statements that are submitted to the Companies Registration Office, CRO.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Abridged relates to the amount of disclosures. Could Mr. Harkness elaborate on that please?

Mr. Andy Harkness:

Companies can abridge the information.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What type of information can be abridged or left out?

Mr. Andy Harkness:

In some instances the accounts may simply include a balance sheet and notes to the financial statements.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The documents we received include a list of directors and their responsibilities, the independent auditor's report and an abridged balance sheet. There is also a reference to abridged notes to the statement. We do not see anything here that refers to income or expenditure, to what came in and went out during the year. We have just been give a year-end balance sheet. Substantial information is missing. There are no cashflow statements or statements showing incomings and outgoings. While this documentation might meet the requirements of the CRO, it does not meet our requirements. We want to see further information so we will write back to UCC to request a copy of the unabridged financial statements. I am not sure if that is the right technical term but I am sure UCC will understand the request. What we have received so far is an improvement but we want to go further.

Next is No. 1236B, correspondence from Mr. Robert Watt, Secretary General, Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, dated 18 April 2018 providing follow-up information requested at our meeting on 22 March 2018. Included are: a note on the indirect costs accrued from PPP projects; a note on the legal challenges associated with PPPs and the legal costs incurred to date on any legal cases; and information regarding the impact of liquidations during procurements and legal challenges to procurement. There is a lot in this, even though it is a short letter.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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To be honest, I am not satisfied with the response because it is a bit dismissive. Mr. Watt says that comprehensive information "is not compiled" on the indirect costs associated with projects affected by the liquidation of a contractor or other parties. He goes on to say "...it is clear, on the basis of the information that is available, that the liquidation of a contractor on a project being delivered using traditional procurement generally has a significantly greater impact in terms of cost to the State ...". How do we know that if information on the indirect costs associated with PPPs is not even being compiled? The statement is very broad, with no substance behind it. Mr. Watt is saying that, on the one hand, we do not have the full list of costs, particularly indirect costs, while, on the other, he is asserting that PPPs have less of an impact in terms of costs to the State.

Section 9.4 of the framework for PPPs states that "full disclosure of all relevant information relating to the conduct of the PPP over time should be encouraged in order to minimise the scope for costly information gaps". Even that statement is not-----

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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From what page is the Deputy reading?

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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The first part about comprehensive information not being compiled is on pages 1 and 2. On page 3, he states that the costs to the State from liquidation are significantly greater with traditional procurement than with PPPs. I do not know how he can make that statement when we do not have a full list of costs.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is a fair point.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There are some very worrying things in this response. In terms of judicial reviews, while one cannot stop them from happening, one can minimise their effects by making sure one's processes are really robust.

We might have information after the event in many different locations. It is like buying a house; one is an expert on how to buy a house after one has bought one but one does not get a second chance to do it in most cases. I do not see in this apart from the comments in the note from Arthur Cox anything to suggest we are unlikely to see more of this. How do we ensure value for money if the process leave us open to judicial reviews? I do not see the learning from those reviews. It would almost be better to have an expert if we are going to do PPPs who could go around the country to proof them against each other as far as is possible. I am sure we can take learning from other countries on how they do this but I am not satisfied with a scenario where something will happen because there is a change in environment. We need to examine the process in this regard. The cost of judicial reviews has to be built into the overall cost of the projects because it will all come out of the public purse in any event. We need to catch issues before they get to the point where there is a failure in the process.

I am not sure I get the point in respect of the liquidation of Carillion Construction Limited on the bottom of the second page. That relates to schools about which there is great frustration because, in some cases, they are almost complete and staff and pupils are ready to move in but they cannot because they need to be finished. The note states, "Any additional costs arising from the retendering process [which will cause a delay] or completion works will be covered by the PPP Company". Is Carillion the PPP company?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is Carillion not in liquidation?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but the answer to that is the liquidator might successfully dispose of the asset, which is this is contract. We do not know is the answer.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There is a certainty about this that------

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Nobody can be certain at this stage.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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They are giving us a reply that indicates certainty in respect of something they cannot be certain about, which is difficult to take on board.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Correct.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Sammon Contracting Ireland Limited is building a few schools in Maynooth and I am monitoring those closely. The work is concluding because other mechanisms are being used there by the looks of it. I am dissatisfied with this paragraph. It is not providing the information that allows me to feel that a PPP company can pick up that amount. There may be further exposure.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I agree with the points made by the two Deputies. We have discussed this on a number of occasions. Since we had our discussions with the three Accounting Officers who appeared before us that day, we have received a mountain of information and I am not satisfied with the response either. However, we have much more additional information. This was an exercise in the committee having a blind discussion. We were not given the information we needed to have a proper exchange with the Accounting Officers. If we need more information, we should get it. With the information we have, we should make an example of this issue and invite them back. If we do not, we will allow the process to make a mockery of the work of the committee. We had lengthy discussions and there was general frustration that we were not getting answers to questions but they were all in documents that the Departments and the Accounting Officers had in their possession. We should bring them back.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will. We asked them to leave during the previous meeting and when they returned, due to the paucity of information and lack of post-project reviews, we made it abundantly clear on the day that we would not complete our work until we received all the necessary information and we would return to that. We have made a point of not signing off any appropriation account this year that has a PPP element until we get satisfactory answers. The committee has started down a road that nobody else has been able to travel or has been prevented from travelling previously. However, we are going there.

On Carillion and the schools, as Deputy Catherine Murphy said, the Sammon Group has other school contracts, which it was not awarded through the PPP process, but it had to go into administration because of the fallout from the Carillion issue. That has affected many schools it was working on outside of the Carillion contract. We hope they will all be sorted out satisfactorily. Whether it is a PPP contract or a traditional contract, there are direct costs but in both cases, the Department has to bear associated costs and we have been unable to compare them or separate them. We have a bit of a road to travel. Mr. Walsh will appear before the committee at the beginning of May regarding his own Department's Vote. This is too big a topic to lump in with that. Responsibility for PPPs extends beyond the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. While we might refer to it in passing with Mr. Walsh, PPPs are a big topic that no public body or the Oireachtas has been able to get behind up to now. We are starting down the road on this.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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We should block off a number of days, whenever that is possible, to examine the data. However, we have more questions to ask before that happens. The information supplied raises more questions than it provides answers. Rather than being definitive today, we should reflect on the letters because we only received them a few days ago. Under the work programme next week or the week after, we might discuss the potential to set aside a few days for hearings on PPPs because the previous hearing was unsatisfactory. The thought of a PPP company in liquidation covering costs that arise is a joke. The liquidator might decide to pay 5 cent in the euro.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There are statements on PPPs in the Dáil later. We should make these documents known to all Deputies in order that they can read it before they contribute to the debate. The letter is helpful. It is the beginning of our trawl for information and I am glad we received it. I agree that we should examine PPPs in detail.

I raised the successful legal challenge relating to the Tuam-Gort motorway. The required information was not given to the European auditors. I am raising this again this because lack of information does not help transparency. It was one example where all the information should have been handed over. It begs the question as to why this did not happen. I have a difficulty with that and I will repeat that at every opportunity I get.

Mr. Watt referred us to the Arthur Cox briefing note and I have looked at it briefly. It states there is an additional requirement on the Department and various agencies to give reasons a tender was unsuccessful. That has not been addressed in his note. Private companies are not interested anymore in the public sector, according to the briefing note. We are told there has been a marked change in the behaviour of bidders who are now less reliant on the public sector for business and can as a result be more selective in terms of tendering for new business. I would love to come back to that interesting comment. The briefing note further states, "They are now also much more aware of, and willing, to enforce their legal rights", as if there was something wrong with that. They are entitled to enforce their legal rights. The obligation is on the agency awarding the tender to make sure all the laws are complied with. That is the process we are interested in and how we do that, which is the issue raised by Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Every legal challenge delays the process by a year or two, which prevents the much needed public service that is required as part of that contract being available to the public.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I sat on the VEC for ten years. We have been told it was the cheaper way to go. I cannot see any evidence that it is.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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There is no evidence.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Good. Now we are saying that, many years after spending millions of euro of public money.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It might be, but there is no evidence.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There is no evidence at all.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It might be true but it might be false. We do not know, and nobody can tell us except to make the bland statement.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I propose not only that we come back to this issue - Deputy MacSharry was talking about discussing this when we discuss our work programme next week - but that we would seriously consider doing a stand-alone report on this issue.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Possibly, yes.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The issue merits that. It is so fundamental and there are so many issues, it would be useful.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There is the quantum of money that could be involved, and even that point about proving whether there is evidence.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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One or the other.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If we are doing that or whatever our follow-up may be, the Chief State Solicitor may have to be part of that. We need to ask whether the costs of the follow-on legal reviews are counted within the individual Departments or counted separately with the Chief State Solicitor's office. It is all very well if one can make a mistake and send it off to someone else where it is up to that person to pick up the tab. There has to be a connection between those two matters.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will conclude. We will certainly have a deeper session on the PPPs. We will discuss it in the context of the work programme. What we will do, as part of our work programme, is take half an hour or an hour in private session to try to work out how we want to approach that and the type of questions we want to raise. We might need an external adviser to assist us in some way in our work because this is an area where nobody has gone before.

Finally, on the Dáil statements today, I asked to speak and there was a suggestion it is for leaders only. I am told only one round of speakers was allowed.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I would say a few Independents will probably get ten minutes each too.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is another day's work.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Present company excluded.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry I opened up that hornet's nest.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is not a hornet's nest. I have witnessed an empty Dáil on many occasions where Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have not spoken on many topics.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, okay.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I have watched an empty Dáil where there were an amount of slots. I have not seen the Chairman queuing up to speak.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Anyway, that is good. There are good mixed views on that.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am going to set up a Sligo-Leitrim technical group so that I get ten minutes on every issue.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. It is a big issue.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Which is the big issue?

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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That is one of them.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The matter under our remit, which is PPPs. The rest is under the Ceann Comhairle's remit. The question of the PPPs is the big issue. We have got a foot in the door that nobody has succeeded in previously-----

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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-----and we now have to shove the door open. We must plan how we go about it. We will discuss that in private session but we will be coming back to it in detail. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The next item of correspondence is item 1237B from the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, dated 18 April 2018. Following receipt of the minute provided by the Minister to the committee on our report on financial procedures at the Garda College, Templemore, the committee requested further information. The item provides an update on the implementation of the interim audit report, a copy of a communications protocol between, I presume, the Department and An Garda Síochána, and a copy of the external review of the internal audit function within An Garda Síochána, which was carried out by a company called KOSI Corporation. I looked the company up. It is a Northern Ireland company which I had never heard of previously but it seems to have done a good job. I am not saying it is perfect but there is a lot in there. Members are free to analyse it and use it, and refer to the document anywhere along the line. It is good when we do not take a response from a Minister at face value and we interrogate it and go back for more information. It is surprising every time we do that. It contains a lot of information to be given to us. We note and publish that.

The next item is correspondence item 1239B from Mr. Mark Griffin, Secretary General, Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment, in response to further information requested by the committee regarding landfill sites, costs and a note on moneys recouped from privately run landfill sites. I seem to have missed that.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The letter tells us 71 landfills are currently high-risk sites, ten of which are private and 61 of which are public, and the Department has not expended any funds on the ten private sites. Is Kerdiffstown included as a private site because a great deal of money has been spent on that? It is not listed here. It has been remediated. Obviously, it is the one in Naas where €19 million was spent. It is just that it is not there and it was-----

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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A private site.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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-----a private site. The Department states it has not spent any money on private sites. Parking the Kerdiffstown site, there are 61 public ones. When local authorities had an involvement in waste management, that was included in the costs when there were charges. There is not separate income to deal with the public sites, which, I presume, are all owned by local authorities. Do we know what is expended? Can we ask the Department what it has spent or is it spending on the public sites? It could be a sizeable amount of money. When one looks at that happened in the case of Kerdiffstown when something goes badly wrong, in fact, the Department could be saving money by virtue of the fact that it is spending money.

The waste management area is problematic and it will become more problematic in that we will have only two landfill sites in the country in the near future. One of those happens to be in my constituency and I am aware of that. I would like to know what is being spent. If they have not spent it on private ones, what has been spent on public ones and why does Kerdiffstown not feature?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Kerdiffstown is the private site on which the Deputy wants details as to why it is not on the list. The Deputy also wants details of what is being funded directly, by the Department or by the local authority-----

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Or by the EPA or whatever.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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-----or by the EPA, and on a local authority by local authority basis, on remediating public sites as well. We will write to the Department directly on that.

The next item-----

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Can I clarify something?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Am I correct that there are 71 landfill sites currently classified as high risk and we are getting information on ten that have been completed?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have the letter in front of me.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I will come back to it. There is considerable detail here.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I thought I had it in front of me. Will we hold it over?

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We hold it over and come back to it in detail next week.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Sorry, there is a list of money that is spent.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There is, on the next page.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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If Deputy Catherine Murphy agrees, can we hold it over until next week?

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I want to indicate to speak for the next session.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is that agreed? Agreed. We will hold that over for the next session. We are waiting for something on the Haulbowline site as well.

The next item is correspondence item 1240B from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General, Department of Education and Skills, dated 19 April 2018, on the audited accounts of Trinity College Dublin for 2015-16. The letter states there was a technical error, which resulted in the accounts not being received in the Department for timely laying before the Houses of the Oireachtas. The correspondent advises that the Department has made arrangements with the Higher Education Authority to strengthen processes regarding the submission of accounts.

We have been given a copy of the University of Dublin financial statements for the year end 30 September 2016. In the document before us today that came from the Department, there is the independent auditor's certificate, which is on pages 15 and 16, signed on behalf of KPMG because the universities have private auditors. They are also audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General and we got, attached to the email from the Secretary General, the Comptroller and Auditor General's audit certificate as well.

Before we note or accept these, I want an explanation as to why the Comptroller and Auditor General's audit certificate is not in the statement submitted by Trinity College Dublin. It has been audited and we regularly see both the Comptroller and Auditor General's audit report and the private audit report. However, just sending it as an attachment to a letter is not satisfactory. It should be part of the published document. Is that a reasonable request Mr. Harkness?

Mr. Andy Harkness:

Yes, it is.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We often see both in the document. However, I only see one in this document. It is a small point but if there is a public audit, the certificate should be there. We will write back to Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, the person who wrote to us, to clarify that document. If it is normal for all of the universities that the Comptroller and Auditor General's audit certificate is not to be part of the published document, we want that revisited. I refer specifically to this instance and ask for confirmation for the university sector. We can note and publish that document. However, we want clarification.

The next correspondence item is No. 1242B from the private secretary to the Commissioner of Valuation in relation to the proposed independent review of the Reval 2017 revaluation project. The Valuation Office advises that a recent procurement competition did not result in the award of a contract and a further procurement is under way in conjunction with the Office of Government Procurement to appoint an independent external party to carry out the review exercise. We will note and publish the request of the Valuation Office and ask it to keep the committee updated on this contract. Is that okay?

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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How can that happen? It might be a stupid question. Does it mean that no one tendered?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We do not know. They were probably too busy to be bothered with Government contracts anymore. There is more money to be made. We have had that theme before. I do not know.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It would be interesting to know.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it would.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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We have asked that the committee be kept updated and could the Valuation Office indicate why no contract was awarded?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will ask.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a potential elitism? If those who tender are not located between the two canals, for want of a better expression, will the contract not be awarded?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will ask for a detailed report on the first tender process, when the notification went out, how many expressions of interest and tenders were received and the reason there was no appointment.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely, I would be interested to know.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It would be helpful for us to understand the process. That is agreed. The next thing on the agenda is correspondence item 1244B from the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Charles Flanagan, in response to the committee’s request to provide an information note following the completion of a review by the Irish Prison Service of its protected disclosures policy. We can note and publish this. We received a similar letter from the Irish Prison Service separately on the same request.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I thankful to the Minster for writing to us. However, I have two follow up questions. What process was used to appoint this dedicated protected disclosures manager? That is not outlined in the response. Under the Act, the bodies themselves are obliged to publish annual reviews of protected disclosures. However, there is no provision in the Act for third parties to publish annual reports. I want clarity that once a protected disclosures manager is appointed that person is obliged to publish an annual report or that forms part of the annual report that body does.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is a fair question.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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If we can answers to those two questions, that would be helpful.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We can get that clarified. I refer to the process of appointing the protected disclosures manager for the Prison Service and confirmation that the report that will be carried out by the protected disclosures manager will be published either directly or through the Department.

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I agree with the Deputy, that is an important question.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. We will write back to the Minister on that. That is agreed and in the meantime we will note and publish that letter. The next item is correspondence item 1245B from Ms Katherine Licken, Secretary General, Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, dated 20 April 2018 providing-----

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Are we going in numerical order?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we had 1244B.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Did we cover 1243?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, that is very interesting Deputy. I get confused myself. There is one sequence in the correspondence list that we get. It starts at one and runs up to a thousand now-----

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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We are getting to it, are we?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes we are, but some are in slot A and some are in slot B.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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That is okay.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is not continuous. Some are As, some are Bs and some are Cs - but they are all there. If that number is not in this section, it is in the other section. We are on correspondence No. 1245B, from Ms Katherine Licken, Secretary General, Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, providing responses to a number of matters raised at our meeting on 29 March 2018. These include the threshold for the purchase of property, the turf compensation scheme, Galway Art House and full project costs, Gaeltacht housing grants and property management. We will note and publish this. Is that agreed? It is agreed to note and publish.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I want to reserve and read the correspondence in respect of Foras na Gaeilge. I asked for the business case submitted to the Department for Foras na Gaeilge. I have read the correspondence. It refers to the business case for the North-South body that oversees it, but there is no business case in respect of what was submitted to the Department on the costs of moving into the new building etc.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is okay.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I presume there was a business case before there was approval from the Department. I thank Ms Licken, the Secretary General for the information so far and the further information on the Galway Picture Palace that is even more enlightening. I welcome the review that is going to be carried out. I would like clarification on when that is going to happen.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Clarification on when the review will be undertaken?

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes. The correspondence confirms that a post-project review will be undertaken of the Solas project in accordance with the requirement.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is there is something more?

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It continues that the review will be published when complete. It does not say when it is going to start.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we will ask for clarification on the timescale.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It does say that work has commenced on the proposed methodology of the review. When is the review actually going to start and when will it be completed? I refer also to information on the business case for Foras na Gaeilge.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will write back. The Deputy's points about the information provided are noted. We will note and publish this and await further information. The next item is correspondence No. 1246B from the Minister for Health, Deputy Simon Harris, dated 17 April 2018, advising the committee on a determination made by the commission of investigation into certain matters relative to the disability services in the south east and related matters. The sole member of the commission, Ms Marjorie Farrelly SC, has determined that the material sent to her by this committee is outside the scope of its first phase investigation which is due to conclude on 15 May 2018.

At the conclusion of this work, the sole member will specify the scope of further investigation to be undertaken by the commission when it moves onto phase two of its investigations. I will ask the secretariat to circulate a listing to the members of what we sent to the commission. I refer to having the full picture. People will be curious. We thought we were helping in good faith, which we were. However, it may not have been specifically relevant to phase one. I refer to knowing in our own minds that we were being helpful, so I will ask the secretariat to supply just the listing of what was submitted. I do not want anybody to think that we were not co-operating. We will note and publish that letter. elation

The next item is correspondence No. 1249B from Mr. Robert Watt, Secretary General of Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, on our upcoming meeting on 10 May with the Department. Mr. Watt refers to a discussion at last week’s meeting among members in relation to-----

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Where is that?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is No. 1249 B. It just arrived yesterday. Mr. Watt has noted the transcript from last week's meeting and that Deputies are concerned to ensure that when Accounting Officers are before the committee that they should have information likely to be sought by the committee available to them to facilitate responses on the day. In light of this, and the number of items on the agenda for 10 May, he would welcome an indication from the committee of particular issues that they would like to discuss on the day. This will help ensure Mr. Watt has as much of the required information as possible to facilitate effective discussion at the meeting.

Mr. Watt is stating that while he will, of course, provide the normal briefing information in advance, he is adopting the logical position that if members wish to have information on a specific issue provided before a scheduled discussion, they should indicate what these issues are in advance. I propose that members notify the secretariat in advance of meetings if they want specific information and the secretariat will write to the relevant Accounting Officer to have information included in the briefing pack that might otherwise not be provided. The briefing pack can then be circulated to members.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is an entirely fair, sensible and pragmatic approach, especially if an Accounting Officer is due to appear before the committee to discuss all the work done by his or her Department. In such cases, we cannot expect Accounting Officers to have everything at their fingertips when we ask specific questions. The proposal makes sense and I will adopt it in practice. However, we should also remind Mr. Watt that the issue under discussion at the time was public private partnerships. There is a world of difference between an Accounting Officer not being expected to have information on specific issues and the lack of information forthcoming on the issue of public private partnerships at the meeting, as well as the information that flowed subsequently. While we must be fair to Mr. Watt, we should also remind him that he should have had more information at his disposal on the day. Deputy Connolly is correct that the Accounting Officer's letter is helpful in the sense that he agreed at the meeting to publish the project reviews. The response was related to a discussion at our most recent meeting on public private partnerships. There is a distinction to be drawn between that specific issue and the fair point that all Accounting Officers make-----

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is a fair point. The Accounting Officer is referring to our discussion last week when other Departments, specifically the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, were mentioned. They sent us a substantial amount of information. While public private partnerships were mentioned specifically, they were not the only issue raised. At our previous meeting, we noted that this had occurred on several occasions. If members wish to raise specific issues with Accounting Officers, they should notify them to the secretariat some weeks in advance of the relevant meeting in order that the information can be provided by the Department or body in question in the briefing material it submits to the committee. This will allow for a more detailed discussion. It is inevitable, however, that unforeseen issues will arise on the day of the meetings.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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This approach will prevent Accounting Officers from using the excuse that they did not know members had intended to raise a particular issue.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I agree. However, we also do not want to trap ourselves into asking a specific list of questions. The normal full briefing will be required and these will be optional extras.

The next matter is correspondence from private individuals. No. 197C is from Professor Patrick O'Shea, president of University College Cork, dated 23 April 2018. The correspondence is in response to a query regarding Cork Opera House and was held over from the previous meeting. Deputy Alan Kelly who raised the matter may wish to comment.

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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This relates to University College Cork.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, the letter addresses the university's partnership with Cork Opera House. Has Deputy Kelly had an opportunity to read it?

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, this is a bit of a laugh. We have raised this issue with the universities and colleges numerous times. Professor O'Shea, at the end of his letter, states that the funding to support the annual €60,000 investment in Cork Opera House is sourced from the university's "own sources of income", for example, non-Exchequer income. If there is one issue that the committee nailed in its report on how money was being spent by universities and colleges, it was this mishmash whereby colleges argued that they could isolate income they received from other sources and use it for specific projects. If taxpayers' money was not being provided to the colleges in the first instance, they would not be in a position to generate non-Exchequer income. As such, the taxpayer is paying for the majority of this annual payment of €60,000.

Given that we discussed this practice in detail previously, I will not bore members by doing so again. However, this case is another example of the practice and it shows that UCC, my alma mater, has not learned from what took place in this committee. Regardless of whether this is a good investment, for University College Cork to maintain that the €60,000 it spends annually on Cork Opera House is from its own sources of income is an insult to the committee given what we decided on this matter. We should write to the university seeking a further explanation of this statement. This will be the third time we will have contacted the university.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I agree. University College Cork must demonstrate to the committee the accounting procedure that shows the non-Exchequer income is separate from Exchequer income. In other words, it needs to provide proof that the annual €60,000 investment is sourced from the university's own sources of income.

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is borderline impossible to prove that.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I know.

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Let it do so, however.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It must not make a statement unless it can back it up.

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will make clear that the university needs to provide evidence to prove its statement is correct.

Nos. 1215C and 1234C are correspondence from an individual dated 29 March 2018 and 17 April 2018, respectively. The individual has corresponded with the committee on a number of occasions regarding his dismissal from the Irish Prison Service in 1989. We requested the Department of Justice and Equality to respond to the matter and the Department's response was forwarded to the individual late last year. While the committee was sympathetic to the case, it agreed that it was not within its remit to take the matter of an individual's dismissal from employment further.

In this further correspondence, the individual in question repudiates the response from the Department and requests the correspondence to be forwarded to the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality. I propose that we forward the correspondence to the joint committee, as requested, for whatever action it deems appropriate, while reiterating to the individual concerned that it is not within the remit of the Committee of Public Accounts to examine the reasons for his dismissal. While the committee's consideration of the matter is closed, members are free to raise it in a manner they see fit outside the committee. We will submit the correspondence to the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality and write to the individual in question. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 1238 is from Ms Katherine Licken, Secretary General of Department of Culture, Heritage and Gaeltacht regarding a matter raised with the committee by Deputy Niamh Smyth on Creative Ireland's programme of activities. Is it agreed to note, publish and send a copy to Deputy Smyth? Agreed.

No. 1243C is from an individual requesting the committee to make inquiries in respect of Cork Education and Training Board. The individual in question believes she was victimised for having raised issues related to the organisation in 2007 when it was known as County Cork Vocational Education Committee. The matter was dealt with by the Equality Tribunal and the person also took legal action against the VEC. A personal injury claim was settled out of court. As the committee stated previously in response to similar correspondence, it is not within our remit to become involved in individual employment cases such as this. I propose we write to the individual in question accordingly. Is that agreed?

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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While I acknowledge that the committee cannot get involved in individual cases, it would be unfortunate if the Chairman's proposal were to be the decision of the committee. A problem would arise if Departments were to condone or accept as reasonable a practice whereby arbitrary conditions could be applied to out of court settlements or disputes that would infringe the basic rights of individuals. I had not heard of the individual or case previously. Having read the correspondence and inquired into the matter, the person was obviously in contact with the previous committee. The questions raised are legitimate.

If there is another committee that is better placed to deal with it, so be it, but I do not think there is a big problem in asking the Department to respond to the queries that were raised, without prejudice to anything, because if there were such a practice, I do not think it would be very fair.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I will take guidance on this. We might write to the Chief State Solicitor's office, which as a Government body was probably advising, to ask if there is a practice in out of court settlements. We can just ask it as a general question and, if it is not relevant, to tell us that. We can write to that office seeking a guidance information note on out of court settlements, the principles involved, and whether it is normal to put into such a settlement that the person undertakes not to seek any further employment in the organisation concerned. I think that is what is referred to in the correspondence.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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If the organisation concerned was a shop, one could understand that people might not be able to get on or to work together, but education and training boards are part of a vast national organisation, and if one is a trained teacher, it is probably a substantial part of the potential opportunities that might be available. I am also concerned about the person not being able to request information and other such issues.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I can understand that the organisation might say the matter is closed and that is the end of it, but I do not know whether it is legal to insist on a person being party to an agreement restricting somebody's future right to apply for a job. That is why I say we need information, possibly from the Office of the Parliamentary Legal Advisor, OPLA, in the House or the Chief State Solicitor's office.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I would ask the legal advisers in the House.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we will start with them.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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The committee could ask them for a note on their view on the principle as opposed to the individual case.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we will not make it specific because it is a broad issue that is raised.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In many cases there are gagging orders.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we understand that.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It may not even be possible to get a full view.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think we will get to the bottom of this individual case. We understand that there are non-disclosure agreements to the effect that there would be no discussion or public comment, but I question the concept of an agreement restricting a person's right to apply for a job. Perhaps the person agreed willingly.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure they did. However, let us say I am the plaintiff.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy MacSharry wants to settle.

Photo of Marc MacSharryMarc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have the resources to have Arthur Cox representing me in the courts whereas the State does because there is an endless supply of cash. There is substantial leverage to do a deal. A person may do a deal because that is the best option and then he or she finds there are a few little add-ons in the small print to the effect that he or she cannot apply here, do this, do that or do the other. That does not sit very well and I am interested to know the position.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will ask the Office of the Parliamentary Legal Advisor to give us a note on whether it is valid to include such elements in an agreement. Perhaps that is normal and that is how life works. I do not know.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to raise a separate issue.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, we will ask the OPLA for advice and it can come back to us for clarification if it wants to know the precise nature of the issue. Are there any other matters?

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, I have two issues. I asked if we could go into private session to deal with a particular issue.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will go into private session before we go into public session.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Before we do that, there is an issue I want to raise in public session if I can. I circulated an email on the matter this morning so I am just looking for some latitude, Chairman. This is something that just arose yesterday.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I have not seen this. Did Deputy Cullinane circulate it?

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. I will just give a very short context on why I think this is important. If we get follow-up information, that will allow us to make a decision next week. It relates to the CervicalCheck audit that was carried out. That resulted in 15 women being identified in 2014 as having a misdiagnosis. My difficulty is that the doctors were not compelled to tell the women of the cancer test errors. That is a clear breach of process and a system failure. Our job here is to look at systems, processes and procedures. There was a High Court judgment yesterday involving a very significant award. I think it was the subcontractor who had to pay the damages but there may be costs for the State. We do not know.

First, there was a clear breach in process where there was a misdiagnosis. Second, a circular was sent stating that clinicians should use their judgment in individual cases where it is clear that discussion of the outcomes of the review could do more harm than good. I find that extraordinary. We had an examination of the issues surrounding the Grace case for exactly the same reasons, namely, process and procedure failures. There could be a cost and I imagine there will be a cost to the State. I do not suggest that we do any work on it because I am aware that there may be a role for the sectoral committee, but could we write to the Department and to CervicalCheck to get as much information as possible?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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And to the HSE.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, and the HSE.

Photo of Kate O'ConnellKate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I wish to add to that. To my mind, this clearly is a systems failure. The tragedy of it is that if things do not happen in the appropriate timeframe, which appears to be the case, the disease progresses quickly. The key thing with cervical cancer is the three, six and nine years. In young women in particular it tends to be aggressive and not to be diagnosed early. I booked an additional check myself this morning. It is very important that people have confidence in the system. If there is a lack of confidence, there is no point in the State rolling out large sums of money on vaccination against HPV if on the other side there is a problem with the physical check in this case. From a financial point of view, which is the remit of this committee, it is questionable to have the State rolling out vaccination but then testing not being adequate or not showing up disease. In this case the lady is terminally ill and no amount of money will undo the situation for her and her family and for the many other women this morning who are stressed out about this.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I echo those points because there is a very human side to the current situation. We have spoken on numerous occasions about the fact that we are supposed to be moving to an open disclosure approach. We have a massive contingent liability. I know it is something we are going to look at when the HSE comes before the committee given that it takes years to do pilots. This case falls within that category as well. In the first instance, the information must be gathered, but if we are to do it, it may well be that the appropriate time falls within the space where we will consider the tardiness of the move towards open disclosure and, as a consequence, the huge amounts that are expended on legal costs. In this case the woman had to go through the courts instead of there being an acceptance that there was a wrong done. Could we consider it in that context?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It has all been said. I want to add that for a long time I sat on a health forum in the west and we objected to the privatisation of services and the running down of State laboratories. We pointed out the problems and that there was a lack of control, yet the outsourcing of testing went ahead. Obviously we can make mistakes in our own country but what we were concerned about is that the decision was made blindly, it was not analysed properly and the protections were not in place. From what I can see as an elected Member, we highlighted that many years ago. Nevertheless those responsible went ahead and outsourced the testing of cervical samples and also breast cancer samples. I do not know what else was outsourced. That is part of the problem.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are going to write to the HSE, the company directly involved and the Department of Health about this case, the lessons, and the particular issue to which Deputy Cullinane referred about clinicians having discretion and not being required to inform patients directly of the outcome. We will ask why it is not mandatory for patients to get information on the basis that they are entitled to know. It should not be for the doctor to decide if a patient will be able to cope with the news.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The issue relates to process, which is our job, in that the direction was given in a circular.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We want sight of the full circular.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Exactly. Each GP was given a copy.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We want sight of the circular and to find out whether it has been reviewed and how not giving information ties in with the publicly stated policy of open disclosure.

Photo of Kate O'ConnellKate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The company needs to show what standard procedures it, allegedly, has in place should there be a break down in the system. The CervicalCheck database holds information on women of a certain age who avail of its service. Getting that information should be as easy as entering two parameters into the system and pressing return. The impact of untimely information provision in this case is serious. It is a matter not only for this committee but also the health committee.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will follow up the matter. When we get the information, we will decide how to proceed. This ties into claims paid out by the State Claims Agency, which is currently €2 billion. It is a matter for this committee how these claims can be avoided or minimised by better practices into the future.

The next item on the agenda is reports and statements received since the last meeting, including the National Museum of Ireland, clear audit report, and the Commission for Energy Regulation, clear audit report. It is proposed that we do not note the Trinity College, Dublin accounts until we get clarification on why the Comptroller and Auditor General's audit report is not included in the documentation presented, which it is hoped we will have for the next meeting.

The next item is the committee's work programme. I do not think there are any significant revisions since our last meeting but there is one item we need to discuss. It was agreed previously that representatives of Nursing Homes Ireland would be invited to attend our meeting on 17 May with the National Treatment Purchase Fund in regard to the fair deal scheme.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I do not remember agreeing that. I thought we had agreed to leave it over for further discussion.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We invited representatives of Nursing Homes Ireland to a meeting some time ago but they could not make it on the day.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Was that invitation in regard to this specific matter?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. As they were unable to attend on the last occasion, we agreed to issue a further invitation at a later date. At the meeting on 17 May, the National Treatment Purchase Fund will be addressing its 2016 accounts but I am sure members will want to discuss the fair deal scheme with them. If we invite Nursing Homes Ireland to meet us on the same day, I think that should be in a separate session for, say, one hour prior to our meeting with the National Treatment Purchase Fund. Nursing Homes Ireland has raised issues regarding the cost of care in the private sector versus the cost of care in the public sector, as set out in the published HSE cost of care statistics for the various nursing homes. The committee could benefit from having some comparative informative in that regard, and on service delivery. Do members believe having such information would benefit them? There are a lot of people in the private nursing home sector whose costs are being met by the State and as such that cost is relevant to our work. Nursing Homes Ireland is not a cartel but it might be able to provide some information. I have no problem if members do not want to invite them in. I thought some members were of the view that the agency should be invited to appear before the committee. Would Deputy Cullinane like to comment?

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but on a separate issue.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will conclude this item first. Is it agreed that we invite in Nursing Homes Ireland?

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I think we should invite it to appear before the committee. I also think we need to set some parameters such that we are comparing like with like but I do not know how we can do that. The vast majority of people being cared for in nursing homes are in private nursing homes. It would be remiss of us not to invite in Nursing Homes Ireland.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I do not know much about Nursing Homes Ireland but I think we could benefit from a briefing from it prior to meeting the National Treatment Purchase Fund. I think the organisation could give us some information that would help us in our discussions with the National Treatment Purchase Fund, which negotiates with all the nursing homes. Otherwise, we will only hear from the State side. Nursing Homes Ireland might give us some useful information.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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On this issue, certain Deputies were interested in bringing in Nursing Homes Ireland generally. I had grave reservations about that because the organisation does not come under our remit. I had proposed that we invite the organisation to appear before the committee in regard to an aspect of the meeting, namely, the alleged meeting that was reported in the newspapers. As the Chairman stated Nursing Homes Ireland is not a cartel but it would appear from the article about it in the newspaper that some of its practices might come within that term, on an alleged basis. This should be the basis on which Nursing Homes Ireland is asked to attend the meeting. It was the reason we had agreed to invite it in the first instance. We appear to have lost sight of that.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We have not lost sight of it.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I note the real powers are shaking their heads. When we invite organisations to appear before us it is generally on the basis of the Comptroller and Auditor General having audited the organisation, which means we have something to discuss. What will be the basis of our discussion with Nursing Homes Ireland?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Members of the committee followed an article in a Sunday newspaper and that should be our commencement point. In any event, the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission has investigated the matter in respect of that meeting and it gave the organisation a clear bill of health. We need a copy of that ruling. A Deputy referred correspondence that some of us received to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission for investigation and it has completed its investigation of the matter. We can ask Nursing Homes Ireland for its comments in that regard.

Where a State organisation is spending €1 billion, it is the private sector that receives the €1 billion. Nursing Homes Ireland is a bit like the section 38 and 39 organisations in that it is the organisation providing the service and so it might be able to provide us with some useful information to put to the National Treatment Purchase Fund. Is it agreed that prior to dealing with our main business on 17 May, we will have a brief meeting of, say, one hour, with Nursing Homes Ireland?

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am not against the Chairman's proposal but I would like clarity on what will be discussed and what documentation it will be asked to provide. I am not happy to have Nursing Homes Ireland appear before the committee without clarity around what documentation it will be asked to provide and the basis on which it will appear, in addition to our questioning it about the alleged meeting.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I agree with Deputy Connolly. Perhaps the secretariat would draft a note for the next meeting setting out the rationale for Nursing Homes Ireland appearing before the committee and the parameters for it, following which we can then make a decision.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The secretariat will write to Nursing Homes Ireland notifying it of a possible invitation to appear before the committee. We can discuss the parameters of any likely discussion at our next meeting. We will move on. I call Deputy Alan Kelly.

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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First, on 10 May, we are meeting with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I would like us to specifically request the chief executive of Benefacts, an agency under the remit of that Department, to attend that meeting. Representatives of Benefacts appeared before the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and the Taoiseach. I was very concerned by many of the issues that were raised there. This will not add any further work to the work programme.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is the agency funded by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes. Second, when will the committee address the issue of consultants' pay?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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On the invitation to Benefacts, are there particular issues which the Deputy wants to raise with the agency?

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, issues in regard to funding, expenditure on IT contracts, tendering, future funding and so on.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I will ask the secretariat to liaise with the Deputy on the details.

Photo of Alan KellyAlan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I will forward the transcript of the meeting of the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and the Taoiseach to the Chairman. On health issues, when will the committee deal with the issue of consultants' pay? Third, when will we deal with the UCC-CIT issue?

There is a slot available on 24 May.

Representatives of An Garda Síochána will be here on 31 May to discuss internal audit reports and IT contracts. That, to a degree, overlaps with what we are talking about. When I was at the meeting of the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality yesterday, Mr. Niall Kelly was there. We are due to receive an update on the outstanding audits at Templemore and I do not see the point in bringing in Mr. Kelly on two separate occasions; therefore, we might address the issue on the same day. Many of the same people are actually involved in the IT contracts and audits at Templemore. Therefore, there is no point in duplicating.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will include the matter on that date. Mr. Niall Kelly and any other appropriate person should be invited to attend. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is welcome that representatives of RTÉ will attend the committee. To be helpful to RTÉ, the clerk and the Chairman, I will raise three issues on which we will need briefing notes from RTÉ. I have consistently suggested its representatives should come before the committee, with others. The issues to be discussed include the practice of self-employment and short-term contracts for staff which are being used more regularly in the organisation. The structure used to pay very senior broadcasters and how companies are established are other issues. It is similar to the practice that was used to pay consultants in hospitals. We need to get a breakdown in that regard. We are talking about people on big salaries. Why are they using such companies? What is the purpose behind it and why are they only used for the individuals in question, not for other members of staff? That should form part of RTÉ's submission.

A report was published last week on the RTÉ symphony orchestras. It was interesting because it discussed the precarious financial state of RTÉ, despite the fact that it had received €170 million of taxpayers' money directly.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It covers the symphony orchestra and the concert orchestra.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am aware that proposals and suggestions have been made, which is fine-----

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will talk to RTÉ about it.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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-----but this should be communicated to RTÉ in order that its representatives will not be able to state they do not have the relevant information when they come before the committee. I would like to focus on those three areas and I am giving RTÉ a heads up well in advance of the appearance of its representatives.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will ask for the report to be circulated to us straightaway. I am sure it is available. I would also like RTÉ to update us on its current views on the report. That is agreed.

Photo of David CullinaneDavid Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The other issues I have mentioned should also be communicated to RTÉ.

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We have noted that request.

On the work programme for Mr. Harkness, the committee will next meet on 3 May. Mr. McCarthy is not here, but I want to be clear that at next week's meeting we want to receive a list of all of the organisations which have not yet submitted accounts to the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General for 2017. The deadline for their receipt was the end of March. We wrote to all organisations in December and want to see a big improvement in the number of accounts received. We are here to ensure public accountability and the first step in that process is the production of financial statements. The second is the auditing of those statements. We are not interfering in that process. However, the first duty of the boards of organisations is to ensure the accounts are sent to the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General for audit. Before the meeting next week we need a full list of the organisations which have not yet submitted accounts for audit. We have actually given them a month's grace because they were due to be submitted by the end of March. The Comptroller and Auditor General will carry out the audit. We are proposing to invite up to ten of the organisations that have not submitted accounts to a committee session. It will be short, with perhaps one speaker for each of the organisations represented to explain why they had not complied with their statutory duties. We will require the assistance of the Comptroller and Auditor General to rate the organisations in terms of turnover, as it is most likely that we will invite the bigger organisations. I am aware that most of the really big organisations have probably complied with their statutory duties, but there are many middle-sized organisations that might not have done so. It would be useful, therefore, to receive some indication of the turnover of each organisation for the previous year in order to ensure the organisations we invite are reasonably substantial and people know about them. At next week's meeting we hope to set a date for a meeting with those organisations, but we would appreciate it if a list could be provided in order that invitations could be sent and that the organisations were put on public notice. Does that make sense? Mr. Harkness is obviously ticking off each organisation as the accounts come in. I am not saying the organisations have sent fully completed financial statements, but once something has been lodged, at least the ball is rolling. We want to focus on those organisations that have not yet submitted anything. Mr. Harkness or Mr. McCarthy can check with the committee during the week, if necessary. There is no point in dealing with organisations which have not yet submitted accounts for last year as we accept that it will be months before the audit process is complete.

The committee went into private session at 10.35 a.m. and resumed in public session at 11 a.m.