Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Today the joint committee will engage on the future of Europe with Ms Fiona O'Donovan from the Disability Federation of Ireland which does great work. On behalf of all members of the committee, I welcome her as we move towards the end of our current series of engagements on the future of Europe. One area the committee has not previously considered is the impact of the discussions on the future of Europe on the lives of people lwith disabilities. We are very grateful to receive Ms O'Donovan's submission and glad that she can engage with us.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

I ask Ms O'Donovan to make her opening statement. I will then open the floor to members.

Ms Fiona O'Donovan:

I thank the joint committee for inviting me to represent the Disability Federation of Ireland. It is very much appreciated. We are very active at EU level and it is great to be able to bring disability issues to the fore, even if it has meant braving the cold to come here. It has been freezing cold for the past week or so. I am sure I am not the only one who has daydreamed in the past few weeks about jetting off to the warmer climate of one of the other EU member states. If I wanted to, when I leave here and head into another cold and chilly wind, I could turn on my phone and book a flight. I could book a house in another country such as Cyprus where I hear the temperature is about 20 degrees Celsius, which would be lovely. I would able to daydream to my heart's content and it would not really matter if it was a dive, as it would still be sunny. I would be able to apply for a job and even do interviews. I could have a whole other life in an EU member state at the drop of a hat if I was to jump on a plane tomorrow. I could pack up my life and go.

I could apply for a job, do interviews and set up a whole different life in an EU member state at the drop of a hat and jump on a plane tomorrow. I could pack up my life and go. I am sure I am not the only person who has thought of that in the last few weeks, especially when there were threats of having to hit the doorsteps again, who was dreaming of warmer climates. Then the question arises about what happens if a person goes out and is caught up on his or her phone, does not realise there is a patch of ice, slips, falls and is injured. If that person then has a disability, having perhaps injured his or her spine, lost vision, or has any range of disabilities, then what happens? That person then falls within the 80 million people with disabilities across Europe who face systematic barriers and blockages to the enjoyment of their rights, entitlements and the fundamental freedoms that every EU citizen is entitled to but they are blocked from enjoying. How does a person then go on a website to book flights that are not accessible? What happens if transport is not accessible when that person arrives or is maybe only accessible at one or two stops? What if those stops do not align with the housing that that person can live in? What if the housing is not accessible or there are no accessible jobs? This is about removing the barriers for people with disabilities to be able to enjoy the rights and entitlements that they are already entitled to by virtue of being EU citizens. That is what I am here today to speak about.

I know the committee has my written submission. I will speak to the content of that. I will not be departing from it but I will be shifting it around a little because I am conscious it was written for reading and not to be spoken. If anyone wants me to explain anything, by all means, do not hesitate to ask. I will focus on some of the key elements. I will look at the aims and values that underline the EU. Linked to that, I will speak about the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. Then I will explain that that is now part of the legal framework of the EU since the EU ratified it. I will then speak about what is required to implement that and some of the key measures, instruments and initiatives to implement the UNCRPD, as it is often referred to. Finally, I will address Brexit because it is obviously a huge topic for the EU and for Ireland.

I will start with the aims and values of the EU. As I set out in the submission, this is to build on the submission of the European Anti-Poverty Network which was submitted to this committee too and to supplement that with disability-specific material. The founding aims in the treaties of the EU are to further peace and the well-being of all persons across the EU and to deliver on the values that the EU holds dear. Those values, which are set out in the treaties, are things like human dignity, equality, human rights and non-discrimination. The question is then how we deliver on all of those. As I set out, we unfortunately see that there has been a growth in poverty, social exclusion and inequality across the EU. There is a disconnect between the values and aims and what is actually being delivered. That leads me then to the United Nations convention. It is international law which the EU, as a legal entity, has ratified, so it has committed to meeting those legal obligations. What are the obligations? It is a roadmap and direction on how to meet and respect the rights of persons with disabilities. In doing so, one will be meeting the fundamental aims of human rights and respect and dignity of the EU. It is all interlinked.

I will address some of the key ways of going about actually implementing that. I could be here for a week if I were to set out all the different policies, strategies and legislation so I will just flag one or two. The main one is the European disability strategy. This is currently running from 2010 to 2020 and discussions have already started about what the next strategy is going to be for 2020 onwards. That is really key to today's discussion on the future of Europe. It is the strategy for how the EU will go about implementing the UNCRPD. It is that simple. The DFI led a delegation just last week over to a very special event which took place in the European Parliament. It was called the European Parliament of Persons with Disabilities. We led a delegation of 11 people to participate in that and it was focused on the disability strategy and the importance of delivering on people's rights and entitlements. The key message from that was that one had to make sure to strive to implement the UNCRPD. It is a legal obligation that we have now committed to. The message was also that one had to make sure that there were resources and funding to facilitate implementation. Crucially, it has to be monitored. This relates to an approach to how we do things in public service. I refer the committee to the submission where I said that the implementation has to be systemic, comprehensive and look at what the causes of issues are, what the blockages are, how we grab it by the root, sort it, deal with it and tackle the issues facing people with disabilities.

Another key instrument that I am sure the committee is familiar with is the European Pillar of Social Rights. This was proclaimed by the institutions in November. I will not dwell on it except to say that it has been proclaimed and it explicitly mentions the inclusion of people with disabilities, which is very much welcome. Even where it is not explicitly mentioned, the language and terminology would be incorporated throughout. That was referred to when it was proclaimed by the institutions as really being at the core of the values of the EU, of seeking inclusivity and improving the living conditions of persons across the EU.

With regard to implementation, I would also highlight funding which is the big, bad, evil thing that can send people scared and running. Where does one get the finances from? This is a very broad-reaching topic. We know that the EU already has a whole array of funding mechanisms and that it already gives funding out. That could be for infrastructure, transport, but I will not go into it since there is a whole array that the EU funds and supports. One of the biggest things, for example, would be the European structural and investment funds. Unfortunately, we have seen that, throughout the recession and the economic crisis, austerity has been implemented across Europe. It has hit all people across Europe but people with disabilities have felt it particularly acutely. There have been cuts to social and health services and community-based services right across the board. This is really about the funding mechanisms that already exist. To be compliant with the commitments that the EU has made to the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, we need to incorporate the inclusion and accessibility for persons with disabilities into the existing mechanisms. An example of this is the European structural and investment funds. A number of years ago - the year evades me - the funds were used to support, construct and maintain big institutional settings for persons with disabilities.

The European Union took action by inserting a requirement that the funds be used to support people to live in the community, in line with the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Difficulties, UNCRPD. However, it was, unfortunately, found by the UN committee which monitors how the European Union complies with the convention that some of the funds were nevertheless being used in ways that were not necessarily in line with it. The committee has advised that in the future the European Union must ensure it monitors how the funds are being used and make their usage reliant on compliance with the UNCRPD and, if necessary, withdraw or recall funds or put an end to funding if they are not being expended in a compliant manner. That could have a huge tangible effect on the lives of persons with disabilities.

The European semester process, on which I will not go into too much detail, involves a set structure whereby the European Union monitors how economic policies are implemented across member states and seeks to co-ordinate them. In particular, it resulted from the economic downturn and seeks to ensure more stable and sustainable organisation and economic policies. It also has effects in terms of social and environmental factors. It is a key mechanism which can be used to incentivise and guide member states on how they can reach obligations linked with the EU legal framework. For example, country-specific recommendations may be issued on how a particular country is incorporating accessibility and inclusion in that regard. Bigger steps are also needed, but these are things that can be tagged on and included in the existing mechanisms and which could make a huge difference to the way member states think about providing for people with disabilities and have a knock-on effect on people's lives.

I highlight the matter of Brexit. It is a huge issue for Ireland, but I wish to flag some key aspects that are particularly relevant for people with disabilities. The United Kingdom is a huge source of funding for the European Union and its contribution will be lost when it leaves the Union. What will happen thereafter? We cannot allow the level of funding for disability and social inclusion initiatives to drop. It was reiterated in the European Parliament last week that it was a key matter and that funding levels could not drop when the funding arrangements changed. Planning to counteract the lack of funding must be carried out now.

There are other more specific and tangible ways Brexit could impact on people with disabilities. A lot of work has been done on this issue by other Oireachtas committees such as the Joint Committee on Health and the Seanad Special Committee on the Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union, but I wish to flag items such as the cross-border health care directive. People in the European Union have a right to avail of health care services in other EU countries. How will Brexit affect those living in Ireland and the United Kingdom who have disabilities, in particular in the Border region between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland? The position of social and health care workers who live on one side of the Border and who cross it on a daily basis for work has been well documented, but if these workers are supporting people with disabilities or working in the sector, it could have a huge impact on the supports available to people with disabilities. What will the impact be for a person with a disability arising from very mundane daily things such as having to travel an extra distance to the closest shop or post office? Will there be accessible transport to the nearest hub, town or city? What impact will it have on their income and capacity to participate in the community? These are the key issues

The announcement on Ireland's role in the Brexit negotiations was very welcome and significant because how Ireland and people with disabilities here will be affected will set a precedent across the European Union for how smaller member states and their citizens will be treated in the future.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank Ms O'Donovan.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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It is ironic that representatives of many Irish disability rights organisations are giving evidence to the Joint Committee on Transport, Tourism and Trade which is meeting in the committee room next door. I thank Ms O'Donovan for her presentation. I welcome her and her boss, Senator John Dolan. She has given us an in-depth insight into how well Ireland compares with other countries in Europe in this area. It is all about principles and values.

On funding, Ireland has committed to paying a certain amount of GDP in foreign aid. Is there any wording in the convention which stipulates that Ireland will commit to paying a certain amount to provide proper services for people with disabilities?

Ms Fiona O'Donovan:

The European Union is one of the biggest sources of humanitarian aid and external funding. Because it has ratified the convention, it has committed to complying with it in all aspects, including the manner in which it administers funds externally. That means it needs to consider whether it is catering for the accessibility and inclusion of persons with disabilities and whether it is taking into consideration that it may be more difficult for them to flee their home countries or flee a war and that they may be more at risk in their home countries. It must consider what is being done to tackle that issue and to cater for the needs of refugees coming in to the European Union. It is about complying with the principles of inclusion and non-discrimination and providing community-based services and for the right to home care. All such rights that apply within the European Union also need to attach to its external work.

In Ireland's case, ratification of the UNCRPD which I hope is imminent will similarly have knock-on effects in terms of an obligation to comply with the convention. That is an issue on which Disability Federation Ireland is working with the Dóchas Disability in International Development Group, particularly in incorporating disability and inclusivity into Ireland's external aid programmes.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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I have a final question. Members of the Joint Committee on European Affairs welcome the fact that Ireland will sign up to the convention in the coming days. Other EU countries have signed up to it, but are they working on its implementation? It is fine to state they will sign a document, but are they giving effect to what they have signed up? Has each EU member state put programmes and timeframes in place?

France might be quicker than Hungary, though I do not wish to pick on any country. They have all signed up, but are they working to ratify the programme on the ground?

Ms Fiona O'Donovan:

The answer to that is that we are the only EU state that has not ratified the convention. We have signed it, but we have not ratified it. All the other EU member states have signed and ratified it. It is a bit of a misnomer, but it means that they have undertaken the obligations. How it is actually happening in other countries is a very good question, if I may say so. The honest answer, from our experience at EU level, is that it varies. There is a process to implementing the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD. Realistically, certain countries are prioritising certain aspects, rather than saying that they are going to solve every problem today and then nothing will have to be done. That is not how it works. We cannot set a timeframe with the UNCRPD, meet that timeframe in two years and be done with it. It is an ongoing process. Yes, the other EU member states are certainly working towards it, but equally there will be different stages of compliance. There may be areas where member states will be particularly advanced, while in other areas they are working on catching up. That is in keeping with the UNCRPD being an ongoing process. Things will change, new laws will come in, and everything must then be found to be compliant. It does not have such a definitive deadline for implementation. There will have to be an ongoing implementation, an ongoing incorporation of people with disabilities into policies.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I call Senator John Dolan. I thank and welcome him especially. I also particularly thank Deputy O'Keeffe for coming in today, because it is important. I wish to explain on the record that we have a problem of clashing with another committee which does very important work. Many of our members are on that committee, and there are a number of personal circumstances today that debars members from being here.

John Dolan (Independent)
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This is my first opportunity to participate in this committee, and I welcome the fact that the committee has taken an interest in this. The circumstances of today are the circumstances of today. The Disability Federation of Ireland and several other disability groups are witnesses before the Committee for Transport, Tourism and Sport next door. Some of these issues have effects from Dingle to Brussels. Perhaps it will be possible to come back to this issue in the new year.

I should say at the outset that I was in a position last week, as chief executive of the Disability Federation of Ireland, to lead a delegation of 11 Irish parliamentarians to the European Parliament for the European Day of Persons with Disabilities. Some 750 people with disabilities came from across Europe , and we had a very strong delegation. I am delighted to say that Mr. Gary Carney, who is in the Gallery today, was one of the members of that delegation.

We discussed Europe and the world. That issue has been taken up already by Deputy O'Keeffe. We discussed the European Parliament elections in 2019, and the participation of people with disabilities in the election process, which is an issue right here in Ireland that we hope to address. We also discussed the next European Union disability strategy which will follow the current one.

Having said that, I would like to thank Ms Fiona O'Donovan for her presentation. On the third page of her opening statement, she quotes Article 3 of the Treaty of the European Union: "The Union's aim is to promote peace, its values and the well-being of its peoples." She notes that Article 2 sets out a number of values, including respect, human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, etc.

Think of how hard it was to arrive at a European Union. It took two horrendous wars. Countless thousands and millions of people were slaughtered. Others became refugees or were made homeless. A little more than ten years after that war, the European Union came together. We have the values and the statements. We have the history of what it took to pull Europe together. We have the European Union, which is, as Ms O'Donovan has mentioned, a very novel and precious entity in the world. There is no other part of the world that has a regional entity like the EU. We can complain about the EU, but there is nothing else comparable anywhere. We may think about disabled people in Africa and other places. Over the past ten years, the EU and its agencies took a particular approach to the economic crisis, which was one word starting with the letter A: austerity. Given that background, does Ms O'Donovan think that the EU is in a good place at this point or does it need to shift its mindset to be a Union for all its people? She mentioned 80 million with disabilities in the EU, with that number set to increase to 100 million.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank the Senator. I thank Ms O'Donovan very much for coming in here today. I would like to raise one very important issue which she spoke about. A man whom I have great respect for in his ministerial role is the Minister of State at the Department of Social Protection, Deputy Finian McGrath. One thing I like about politics is that there can be a strong difference of opinion. I respect the Minister of State's view on this issue, but I do not agree with it. Those present might even have a difference of opinion on this issue, namely, congregated settings. One size does not fit all. For example, in County Kerry we have what I would call a centre of excellence, St. Mary of the Angels in Beaufort.

I will outline the background. For many years a very nice farmer and his wife owned a beautiful farm. They had a daughter who became a nun. They wanted to do something special with their farm, so they gave it up on the condition that whatever was built there would be for the betterment of people with physical or intellectual disabilities. For many years, it was run as an excellent facility that grew with the demand in County Kerry. A school was built there. It is now on a slippery slope. The facility is not accepting any more residents, because since June 2011 there has been a policy, over which I would draw a big question mark, against congregated settings.

I fully agree with the Minister of State when he says that he does not want people to be in a facility if it does not allow them to get the most out of their potential. If I had a family member with an intellectual or a physical disability, I would not want him or her put away somewhere, as it might be called, if I thought that by living in the community, he or she would have a better way of life and better outcomes, or that he or she could develop personally.

I know many people with different types of disabilities. I always say that it seems to be the case that a person with a disability has a fierce and great ability in some other way. It could be some other physical attribute such as sport, or they could be very intellectually smart. I took an ambassador from here down to Kerry to visit a school, and he asked a number of questions. The person who answered the most difficult questions in the classroom that day was a student who happened to have a special needs assistant sitting alongside him. I met that young person and discussed our visit with him. That young person could blind anybody else when it came to ability. At the same time, he had other needs that we will call, with a question mark, a disability.

I will return to St. Mary of the Angels and the reasons I am against the policy of depopulating congregated settings.

Unfortunately, there is a category of person who, because of the severity of their intellectual or physical disability, will need to be in what I would call a centre of excellence. I would call St. Mary of the Angels a centre of excellence because it has a lifetime of experience of dealing with people with special needs. Thankfully, over the years people have engaged in massive voluntary fundraising for the service. Those were people who supported the work being done there, the Beaufort community down into the Black Valley, all of mid-Kerry, and the parents and relatives of family and friends who benefited from the service, from staying there and from going to school there. They supported it financially and organised fundraising events. Every week there would have been a fundraising event for St. Mary of the Angels, which is now under St. John of God Order, and all the time it has provided a great service.

Unfortunately, with natural progression, we will all die. As residents in St. Mary of the Angels have died, their spaces have not been replaced. I appreciate the efforts being made and the policy of buying properties in the community and placing people in those, but that is not always the best place for every category of person. There are people who benefit from that and from being part of the community in a limited or in as full a way as they can to gain the most out of it for themselves. However, there are would-be parents of the future who, unfortunately and sadly, may have children with profound disabilities who would benefit from having a centre of excellence in their locality. I am concerned that St. Mary of the Angels, as we know it today, will shut down over a period of time because, effectively, it is not taking in people. I believe that policy is wrong. I am not saying it is wrong to bring other people back out of settings to live in the community. Of course, that is right and it is a great policy, but it is not one that benefits every person with a disability.

I have debated this issue with the Minister of State. I was grateful that when I asked him to come to Kerry and visit places such as St. Mary of the Angels, he did so. He is coming back to Kerry in January and I welcome that. I welcome his engagement and the work he has done in his portfolio. I am not being critical but I have a difference on opinion on this issue. Some disability association groups would disagree with my view but they could not argue with my meaning this in the best possible way in that holding on to centres of excellence around the country is good for the future and we should not let them be closed by stealth.

I liked the analogy Ms O'Donovan made at the start of her presentation about a person being able to drop sticks here tomorrow if he or she wanted to and go to anywhere in the world he or she would like, but a person with a disability cannot do that as there are many other factors that have to be taken into account. I welcome and very much acknowledge the work Ms O'Donovan's group does. The same issues face people with disabilities whether they are based in Holland, Berlin, Ballinskelligs or any other part of the world. If one is a wheelchair user or has any type of disability, one will have the same problems. We need the same advocates for such people, namely, ourselves as politicians and excellent groups such as the Disability Federation of Ireland which does the work that it does, and we must all pull together at all times. We must admit that services have improved dramatically over the years. We will always have to strive for more and better conditions. The resources given to people are most welcome and they have improved, but we will always have to fight for more. It has been very beneficial that the representatives of this group to come here today and Ms O'Donovan now has the opportunity to respond.

Ms Fiona O'Donovan:

I thank the Chairman kindly for that. I will respond first to Senator Dolan's question regarding austerity and what needs to change. The best answer I can give to that question is the message that came through from last week's proceedings in Brussels which was a very strong call that austerity needs to end and investment needs to be put into supports, services and community-based supports and services for people with disabilities. Without investment it cannot develop. As I said, austerity has been felt most profoundly by persons with disabilities and other groups who would have be particularly marginalised from society. A key point to remember is that people with disabilities are people and, by their nature, they are diverse. They are immigrants with disabilities and women, children, men and the range of human existence of persons with disabilities. In terms of austerity, however, the tide needs to change. People with disabilities and the services supporting them cannot take any more cuts and they need investment. The people and the citizens of Europe need investment. The focus has been very strongly on economic policies and economic stability - this has been the topic of a submission made in numerous fora - and that is understandable and must be recognised. As I said in my submission paper, the EU has demonstrated that it can act with determination and resolve, but that now needs to shift and be focused on, showing the same determination to improving the lives of the citizens of the EU. It is not just about the economics. As I said in the submission paper, it is not just about fixing the economic crisis. The question is how this crisis impacted on the lives of persons in the EU. The only way to change that around is to start to invest in improving the lives of persons with disabilities and the wider EU citizenship.

I will move on to the question raised by the Chairman. Certainly decongregation is a key issue in Ireland now. It is referred to as the institutionalisation at EU level and this is part of a disconnect. It is like trying to translate the lingo from the EU to the national and even to the local. I appreciate the Chairman raising it here in the Irish context.

I would not presume to comment on the specifics of the local service in the community but I will speak more generally on the issue. Decongregation is a policy based on research on the lived experiences and the wills and preferences of people with disabilities. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD - I believe it is Article 19 which focuses on community-based services - specifically calls for people to be given a choice as to where they want to live, how they want to live their lives and to give support to community-based services. I certainly understand a concern around losing a centre of excellence but the question is what actually is the concern there. What is the root issue. Does it go more fundamentally to a fear of losing the excellence, the supports and the knowledge, which is what having community-based services is all about? It is about ensuring that people with disabilities can live and be part of the community and have that expertise to hand in a form appropriate to their needs locally, in their local health centres, local primary care centres or wherever it is, and in this way not losing the excellence but applying it in a different way to support people to live in the community.

In terms of the fundraising and its importance to the community, that would be replicated throughout the country. That would be true of many support organisations.

It is a question of recognising that excellence can be provided in a different way and to give the choice and support. There are studies and research to show that people with even the most complex needs around disabilities can benefit the most from community-based living. I would be happy to forward some of those to the committee if required. Ultimately, it is a question of choice and not losing excellence but looking at how it can be provided in a different way.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank Ms O'Donovan for coming here today. Her group is doing excellent work. There is a lot to be teased out over the next few months and years about the impact of Brexit on people with disabilities. The committee is grateful for Ms. O'Donovan's submission and wanted her to come here to give her ideas and views on this very important issue. The meeting will suspend for a few minutes.