Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask everyone with a mobile phone to ensure it is switched off or put in airplane mode. If anyone has a hearing aid, it should be switched to "T" and should then work. I apologise if it does not. We will try to get it right.

The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss the accessibility of public transport for people with disabilities. It is the first of a series of hearings the committee will convene. In addition to meeting with transport users, we will meet with transport operators and other responsible bodies with a view to reporting to the Minister as early as possible in the new year. I welcome my colleagues and our invitees to the meeting. I will name the witnesses in the order in which they will be called during the meeting so that everyone will know where he or she is. The first speaker will be Senator John Dolan, CEO of the National Disability Federation, followed, respectively, by Mr. Eddie Redmond, CEO of the Irish Deaf Society, Ms Joan Carthy, head of advocacy at the Irish Wheelchair Association, Mr. Chris White, CEO of the National Council for the Blind, Sarah Lennon and Sandra McCullagh of Inclusion Ireland, and Dr. Margaret Kennedy, a disability activist. They are all very welcome.

I am obliged to say the following on the procedure for all of our meetings. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee.

However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I have to say that. It is standard procedure. I invite Senator Dolan to make his opening statement.

John Dolan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Go raibh maith agat. The Chairman mentioned the users of public transport services in his initial remarks. The reason we are here is that it is often more potential than users. I welcome the tripartite way this module has been set up, with the public transport operators coming in next, then the various responsible and regulatory bodies, followed by the committee's report to the Minister. The committee is starting with the right people first.

I welcome the opportunity to present to the committee on behalf of the Disability Federation of Ireland, DFI. We all expect and live by consistency in our daily lives. When we turn on the light in the morning it works, as does the kettle. Similarly, when we go to the bus stop or train station, we expect them to arrive on time and to be able to bring us to our destinations. I ask the members of the committee to think for a couple of seconds about the frustration that would build up if a person went to the bus stop or the train station to get to his or her place of work and, as he or she neared it, that person did not know whether he or she was going to be able to get on the train or bus. That is the daily grind and the committee will hear a lot more about that this afternoon.

Ireland has a long-standing commitment to include people with disabilities fully. Each and every member of this committee supports equality for people with disabilities. However, people with disabilities need to experience this support in their efforts to have a reasonable quality of life. They need to experience this in their day-to-day living. We now have more than 643,000 people with disabilities in Ireland, 13.5% of the population. That is up from just under 600,000 people in the previous census. Public transport is what it is called and it needs to be for all of the public, including those who are part of this important demographic group. An important point is that public transport is not an end in itself. It is a vital connector of people to services and opportunities. A person does not go on a journey just to go to the end and then turn back. He or she goes on the journey to get someplace and to engage in some way or other. Public transport has a huge role in promoting health and well-being as well as access to training and employment. Those are just two critical areas but we can think of many others.

People with disabilities live in families and, thankfully, more and more are part of and want to stay in the community. This is a very critical element. Without accessible public transport, the person with a disability is being left outside and left behind. The Government is committed in its Programme for a Partnership Government to the ratification of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD. This has implications for transport. The convention states in Article 9 on accessibility:

To enable persons with disabilities to live independently and participate fully in all aspects of life, States Parties shall take appropriate measures to ensure to persons with disabilities access, on an equal basis with others, to the physical environment, to transportation, to information and communications, including information and communications technologies and systems, and to other facilities and services open or provided to the public, both in urban and in rural areas.

That is important. The Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission Act 2014 emphasises the public sector duty where it states:

A public body shall, in the performance of its functions, have regard to the need to:

[1.] eliminate discrimination,

[2.] promote equality of opportunity and treatment of its staff and the persons to whom it provides services, and

[3.] protect the human rights of its members, staff and the persons to whom it provides services.

In my time with the DFI I have had the privilege of engaging with hundreds of organisations dedicated to assisting people with disabilities and speaking to and hearing from people with disabilities. All of these see the devastating effect poor access to public transport has on their own lives and the lives of the people with whom they work. We can grasp non-accessibility fairly easily when it comes to someone using a wheelchair. We can see the picture. However, this is only one aspect of the issue. Many people have less obvious mobility impairments, for example, people with restricted mobility, those who are deaf or hard of hearing, the blind and visually impaired, and, only now beginning to be recognised, those with sensitivities to the noise and intensity of the environment around them, often but not exclusively people on the autism spectrum.

We also need to look at those citizens who are living longer but lose capacity in a range of areas. We might say that as we age, we slow down. That is a point in life when people can lose their confidence and be compromised, particularly when the public services that they are facing do not understand, appreciate and respond to the situation that they are in. It is incumbent on Government and society to look after all of our citizens. If disability were associated only with a decline in advancing years, this would still be a serious and growing issue in Ireland. However, that is not the case. It is an issue for many people from birth right through the life cycle. Public transport has a responsibility to make sure that people can have easy access to buses, trains and trams. That is what I, the members of the DFI and the organisations and people here have and are continuing to work to achieve.

An interesting point for all Members of the Dáil is that each Deputy represents about 4,000 people with disabilities. That is not seen every day but it is a useful statistic. Adding about a third of that number gives the number of carers that are in Ireland as well. The initiative from this committee is about bringing a greatly needed sense of urgency to this issue. People with disabilities do not have their basic right to free movement. That unlocks so many things. I asked the committee at the start to think about the frustration of a bus or a train not turning up because of industrial action or something happening. That is minimal compared with the routine frustration of people with a whole range of disabilities. They are never in a position to feel confident that the public service will be there.

There a number of areas that I am not going to go into now. They are in my paper. Others can speak to the various issues experienced by people who are blind and visually impaired, deaf and hard of hearing, wheelchair users and people with mobility impairment, and also that area of autism and the need for quiet spaces and more time. These are all issues and they go across every aspect of public transport provision. There is not one area. Let me draw to a close by naming a couple of things. I will give one example.

It is one of many. For instance, Irish Rail insists that people with free travel passes who wish to reserve a seat pay €5 per journey each way even though the Oireachtas is underwriting the cost of the journey by providing a free transport pass. If someone without a free travel pass wants to book a seat, he or she faces no extra cost. That is a blatant infringement not only of fair play but also of the regulations we have through the EU. Accessible public transport requires a thoughtful and welcoming approach from all staff involved. Training and an insistence on standards of customer service are crucial. An embarrassing apology and expressing the hope that something will not happen again is not a response. The response is a working service. The remit of this committee includes tourism and it is important to note that accessible public transport and public spaces are assets to our tourism product.

The following is irksome. Where non-State transport providers have been licensed by the State to provide public transport, they must provide the same access and compliance that is required of the public operators. During the recent strike by Bus Éireann, I raised an issue, albeit I should probably say "Senator Dolan raised an issue" at the committee. It related to the service from Clonmel to Dublin and on to Dublin Airport. Bus Éireann was removing its fleet and saying the private operator had sufficient capacity. The Minister, departmental officials and the National Transport Authority, which is the regulator, said there was sufficient capacity to meet the need. Not one of the privately operated buses was accessible for wheelchair users. What is worse, not one of them needed to be accessible. The State had licensed a private operator to provide a public service and did not expect the same from that operator as it expected from the public provider. We were told publicly that there was no diminution in service for the people using that route. If it was for any of us who are in this room today, there was no diminution of service; there was no service. That is a critical issue and I feel strongly about it.

All operators whether public or private, must have effective and efficient complaints systems. The National Transport Authority must, to put it nicely, be in a position to ensure that learning and remediation follow complaints. I dealt with a young 20-year old woman who is finishing in college and who needs to come from County Cavan to Dublin on a regular basis. She has gone through primary, post-primary and three years of a four-year degree in Dundalk. In fewer than 20 weeks this year, she was let down 20 times even though she had phoned up. They were fed up of hearing from her because she was phoning up so often to book the 9.15 a.m. bus and the return journey that evening. She already had the burden of having to give notice two or three days in advance that she planned to travel from home to Dublin and back but the public provider still let her down routinely. We want her to get a job and have a life but where is she going? She cannot put her hand on her heart and tell a prospective employer that she will be at a meeting because she cannot depend on the public bus service every day of the week. That kind of thing is routine. When purchasing fleet, the transport authority must prioritise and insist on the acquisition of roll-on, roll-off coaches and buses.

I thank the Chairman for his tolerance. That is my opening statement. I am delighted that today there are so many people who can set out their frustrating lived experience of trying to use what is called "public transport" in Ireland.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Senator Dolan. If it is in order, we will hear from all our witnesses first.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise to the committee and our guests, but I am on another committee which I have to attend. I will read the transcripts and we will pick up on this again.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Senators O'Sullivan and Ó Céidigh also have to do something. I note to Senator Dolan and all of our witnesses that they might provide examples of best practice and tell us what are the ideal or best systems internationally.

John Dolan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The best system is one in which fleets and premises are accessible to everybody. When one has to retrofit or one has to ring up in order for lifts to be put in place and seats taken out of a bus as a temporary measure, that is where issues arise. One has to have accessible carriages and buses. The other element is staff who understand the extra minute where people have to be supported if they have different conditions. That must be grist for the mill of everyone who deals with the public in relation to these services. That is why I referred specifically to low-floor buses, which we have in Dublin. However, there is a row going on now because they were put in for wheelchair users but they get used by people with buggies who do not vacate when someone with a wheelchair gets on. There is a range of issues, some of which are human issues of thoughtlessness and others of which involve getting the stock right to begin with.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask Mr. Eddie Redmond, CEO of the Irish Deaf Society, to make his presentation.

Mr. Eddie Redmond:

While I understand we are constrained by time, I note to the committee that the interpreter may be a couple of seconds behind me. I hope we are a little flexible around time. I thank the committee for inviting us to attend and for the introduction. On behalf of the Irish Deaf Society, IDS, I note what an honour it is to make a presentation here on access to public transport for people with disabilities. The IDS has done a great deal of work in Ireland over 30 years with people who are deaf and hard of hearing and whose first language is Irish Sign Language. We are in the process of having Irish Sign Language recognised by the State. We have been doing that for a long time but we expect the Recognition of Irish Sign Language for the Deaf Community Bill 2016 to be passed in the Dáil tomorrow. It will be a great day for the deaf community and we will be in to watch it. It is a historic time for us.

We have had to lobby for a long time for equal access to education, employment, health services and transport. The IDS is a member of the European Union of the Deaf, EUD, and World Federation of the Deaf, WFD, which organisations work with the UN, especially on the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. The society provides a range of services to empower deaf and hard of hearing people to live independently, including by supporting people who live in rural areas. The Irish deaf community is quite marginalised due to barriers to communication, the discrimination members have experienced and poor levels of service.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise for interrupting, but there is a vote in the Seanad and Senator Dolan has to go. I just want to make sure people know.

Mr. Eddie Redmond:

That is not a problem. Public transport in Ireland relies to a great extent on sound and there is not a lot of visual information that can be conveyed.

There is too much reliance on auditory information provision in public transport in Ireland. While people with disabilities might understand auditory emergency announcements, they would bypass deaf people and people who are hard of hearing. There is insufficient service provision in an accessible way on bus, train and airport services for people who are deaf or hard of hearing. Much of the consultation down through the years on disability services provision has been focused on disabilities other than accommodating deaf and hard of hearing people. It is astounding that in the 21st century there is still a lack of visually accessible information for deaf and hard of hearing people.

Barriers to access to public services can be very frustrating for deaf and hard-of-hearing people. It would be expected that at this stage, when people are putting in place plans for people with disabilities, they would take into account deaf people. While the Leap card is a great novel invention which allows a person to tag on and off, because the person also needs to tell the driver where he or she is going, deaf people are often misunderstood by a driver and then overcharged for their journey because the amount charged is based on the destination communicated to the driver. Also, while ticket machines are welcome, deaf people, including those who have free travel passes, still have to obtain tickets from people in kiosks who do not use a language that is accessible to those deaf people. There are electronic machines from which people can buy tickets without interaction but deaf people are forced to go to kiosks to obtain tickets. In one case, a deaf man took a train from Limerick to Dublin and because he fell asleep and did not hear the arrival announcement, when he woke up the train was on the way back to Limerick. Also, tannoys are used to make announcements regarding platform changes for rail services. There is no visual information provision in this regard, and often when gate changes are announced at airports, the information is not available on the screen straight away. Another deaf person who was travelling from Killarney to Dublin by train did not hear an auditory announcement regarding a changeover to a bus for the remainder of the journey, and because he was last off the train, the bus was full and he had to wait an hour for the next bus.

While deaf and hard of hearing people often receive assistance from hearing people, there are other people who are not patient in their interaction with deaf people. As a deaf person I might be asked to try to lip read in an effort to understand what people are saying, but nobody would ever ask a person who is a wheelchair user to try to walk. It can be very offensive for deaf people when they are asked to do this because they are not being respected for who they are.

In terms of solutions, one idea in regard to the Leap card would be the installation of a machine which allows deaf people to indicate their destination by pressing a button and selecting it. In terms of emergency announcements, there need to be live scrolling displays. I acknowledge that there is some visual information, provision but for deaf and hard of hearing people, emergency announcements need to be made auditorily and visually straight away. The Irish Deaf Society provides deaf awareness training to businesses, hospitals and health service providers. We believe that all public transport staff should receive some form of deaf awareness training. It can be good fun but it is also good for them to learn how to interact with deaf people. It can change attitudes. Some people have a less than graceful attitude when it comes to dealing with deaf and hard of hearing people. There are also basic sign language classes available at which people can learn a few signs related to the area in which they work, for example, the sign for train and ticket and so on. This is not about people becoming fluent in how to communicate with deaf people and Irish Sign Language, rather it is about having a basic familiarity with the language that can help.

It can be difficult for deaf people to engage with the hearing world, particularly in terms of transport. Services that are accessible to hearing people and taken for granted are not necessarily accessible to deaf people. For example, we may not be able to access the theatre or the cinema in the same way as hearing people can. Services that require use of a phone are a barrier. For example, we have only one interpreter here today because it was not possible to get another one. This limits our experiences and our access to events, meetings and so on. These frustrations arise because of barriers, inequality and discrimination that we experience. There are useful ways to improve attitudes and change these things.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Redmond for his opening statement and I now invite Ms Carthy to make her opening statement.

Ms Joan Carthy:

I thank the committee for the invitation to today’s meeting to discuss the barriers to transport for people with disabilities. In particular, I thank the members of this committee who have supported the Irish Wheelchair Association, IWA, in the past and in the run-up to the budget.

The Irish Wheelchair Association is Ireland's leading representative organisation and service provider for people with physical disabilities. We advocate for the needs of people with physical disabilities and provide services and support to more than 20,000 members in homes and communities throughout Ireland. Everything we do is driven by a vision of an Ireland where people with disabilities can enjoy equal rights, choices and opportunities and live their lives independently. Mobility is very important for IWA members. As a service provider we have our own fleet of 140 accessible buses throughout the country and we work with transport operators to ensure that buses, trains and taxis are wheelchair friendly.

Transport is key to people with physical disabilities realising their independence. When it comes to holding down a job, socialising or going on holidays, just getting there can often be the greatest challenge to overcome. Unbelievably, in 2018 Ireland still does not have a fully accessible public transport system or taxi service. Almost 50% of people living with a disability experience difficulty going outside their homes, and due to the lack of reliable public transport, only 24% of people with disabilities use community trains and only 35% avail of city buses.

Through our membership we know that people with physical disabilities have no faith in public transport due to repeated bad experiences. This unreliable, disjointed service would not be accepted or tolerated by any other group in society.

As was pointed out, Article 9 of the UNCRPD states:

To enable persons with disabilities to live independently and participate fully in all aspects of life, States Parties shall take appropriate measures to ensure to persons with disabilities access, on an equal basis with others, to the physical environment, to transportation, to information and communications, including information and communications technologies and systems, and to other facilities and services open or provided to the public, both in urban and in rural areas. These measures shall include the identification and elimination of obstacles and barriers to accessibility.

I would like to take members through the different public transport systems and the barriers they pose to people with disabilities and then look at some solutions. Currently, only 5% of taxis throughout the country are wheelchair accessible and while TFI has put in place a wheelchair accessible vehicle grants scheme to support the wider availability of wheelchair accessible vehicles, it does not go far enough to incentivise taxi drivers to invest in making their vehicles more accessible. Large contracts are awarded by the State on an annual basis to taxi operators to whom it has been reported that more than €60,000 a day is paid out through the HSE. This is where a major change could happen without any cost to the State, while, at the same time, incentivising taxi drivers to adapt their vehicles. In the tendering process for the awarding of these contacts considerable additional weighting should be given to taxi operators with accessible vehicles. While this would not change the position overnight, it should increase the number of accessible taxis on the road to an acceptable number servicing everyone in the country.

While the Dublin Bus fleet is fully wheelchair accessible, there is still an issue with people taking up the allocated spaces with buggies, trolleys and bags. The IWA recently ran an awareness campaign with TFI and Dublin Bus which was launched by the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Sport and the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Finian McGrath. Legislation is needed to empower Dublin Bus drivers to ask persons to vacate the spaces and impose a penalty on those who do not do so. More than 60% of Bus Éireann coaches are wheelchair accessible. However, few, if any, accessible services are currently provided owing to the lack of accessible coach stop infrastructure. Do members believe there is any use in having a car if they do not have keys and cannot access the car? I believe they would think this to be pointless and frustrating. As well as funding for the ongoing purchase of accessible coaches, funding should also be made available to ensure a nationwide network of accessible coach stops will be in place by 2020. Some pilot schemes between County Donegal and Dublin are being rolled out, but this issue has been ongoing for years. For how many more years will people with disabilities have to wait before they can access a bus and can travel like everyone else, to enter the workforce or education or be able to travel for social reasons? We are not asking for accessible stops on dangerous country roads but in cities, towns and villages.

Many trains and train stations continue to provide significant barriers for commuters with disabilities. There are many unmanned stations throughout the country and commuters with disabilities are faced with the uncertainty that ramps or space will be available when they arrive at a station. People with disabilities have to give 24 hours notice of travel, thus preventing them from making travel plans spontaneously or in emergencies. Do committee members plan all of their travel arrangements 24 hours in advance? Perhaps they might do sometimes, but they do not every time they want to leave their home. I am sure that once they have decided where they want to go, they just get up and go. The notice time for the DART has been reduced from 24 hours to four for people with disabilities who are supposed to be grateful for this change. However, it does not make the experience any different for them. The DART has put in place a manual to help people with disabilities to navigate their way through using the service, but how does this change the experience of travel for a person with a disability?

I will outline a scenario. Imagine getting up in the morning and deciding to go to town to do some shopping or visit a friend, or, worse, a sick relative. People with disabilities first have to arrange a time to meet, always keeping in mind that they need to give four hours' notice. They then need to find their guide to travelling on the DART for people with disabilities, ring the number provided and state the station from which they will start their journey and the station to which they will return. They must go to the station hoping a member of staff who is being deployed from another station will be there in time to assist with the ramp and that no one else with a disability will need assistance at another station at the same time. They must live in hope that when they reach their destination, there will be a staff member there to assist them to exit the DART. Now add to this scenario that, owing to their disability, they have a speech impediment and that their hand function is so poor that using a phone does not work for them. Perhaps someone is a tourist with a disability and does not have a guide or perhaps it is someone who works and has to go through this every day. That is the reality for people with disabilities.

Unmanned stations do not work for people with disabilities and the allocation of appropriate funding is needed until such time as Irish Rail services are fully wheelchair accessible. Padraic who is an IWA member spoke recently about the issues as he tried to commute to work every day. He relies on public transport to commute from Bray into Dublin city centre. Each morning he must contact his local DART station to ensure the lifts in the station will work, that the station will be manned by a staff member to assist with ramp access and that he will be able to disembark safely at the other end of the journey. Too often he is met by obstacles, problems and challenges which prohibit him from commuting to work. I spoke to him earlier this week. He had yet again been left sitting on a train with no one to help him disembark, which meant he was late for work again.

In 2013 the motorised transport grant and mobility allowance were stopped and while it had been decided that the HSE would continue to pay the 4,133 people in receipt of the allowance at the time, there has been no replacement of the schemes for those who find themselves in need of accessible transport. This has had a major knock-on effect in many aspects of people's lives, including their health. People with disabilities cancel hospital appointments as they have no transport and cannot afford to pay for a taxi. The Government’s response has been that legislation is at an advanced stage, but it has been at an advanced stage for quite some time. The Government has spent time launching inclusion and employment strategies to assist people with disabilities to become more involved in society. This is hugely welcome, but they are no more than hollow words if the same Government ignores the major transport barriers that hinder the very inclusion we seek to ensure. The aspiration to include people with disabilities will never come to fruition if one of the major barriers is not dealt with in a comprehensive manner.

The IWA asks the committee to consider a number of recommendations on behalf of people with disabilities. When large contracts are being awarded by the State to taxi operators, considerable additional weighting should be given in the tendering process to taxi operators with accessible vehicles. With regard to Bus Éireann services, as well as funding for the ongoing purchase of accessible coaches, funding should also be made available to ensure a nationwide network of accessible coach stops will be in place by 2020. Train stations thorughout the country should be manned and people with disabilities should not have to give notice of their travel plans in order that they will have the right to travel as freely as everyone else. We ask that legislation be put in place to empower Dublin Bus drivers to ask persons to vacate the spaces allocated for people with disabilities and impose a penalty on those who do not and that the legislation to reinstate the motorised transport grant and mobility allowance be brought forward.

I again thank the committee for inviting the IWA to present on transport matters that affect people with disabilities. I am happy to take questions members may have.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Carthy for her comprehensive statement.

Mr. Chris White:

The NCBI is delighted to have the opportunity, with our peers, to present to the joint committee because, as has been clearly identified by other speakers, public transport is central to the lives of people with disabilities, particularly those who have suffered sight loss and are blind. Fundamentally, it takes great courage for an individual with a sight loss condition to leave the safety of his or her home.

One must trust the systems and the mobility training received. In many ways, one takes one's life in one's hands. This is not an academic discussion or something one would "like to have". This is a key question about how the State deals with public safety and people with sight loss and other disabilities.

According to the 2016 census, there are currently 54,810 people with sight loss. Sight loss ranges from mild to moderate to severe or total sight loss. The impact of mild to moderate sight loss is considerable when one can no longer drive and it is life-changing. Public transport takes on a new significance when it is only access to transport that somebody with sight loss may have. There are still considerable barriers within our public spaces and built environments, and these are coupled with barriers created by inaccessible public transport. Those barriers hugely limit the rights and choices of people with sight loss, leaving them unable to fully participate in the workforce, education, training and, fundamentally, in Irish society.

In this presentation we would like to highlight the problems created when trains do not have audible announcements, which allow a person who is blind or vision-impaired to know where he or she is or where to get off. Buses are capable of audible announcements but they do not happen in a reliable way. Trams should announce the direction before moving, as not doing so leaves one unsure as to whether the direction is to the Point or Connolly Station. This is even more relevant with the very welcome opening of the Luas cross-city project this weekend. That is not to say we do not recognise that progress has been made and we welcome everything that has been done, although it has been slow and hard-won. We must place disability at the heart of all our discussions, and that is why this meeting is so welcome. This relates to current and future public transport infrastructure. We therefore ask the joint committee today to support our recommendations to ensure a fully accessible public transport system.

What do we mean by this? The majority of the 8,000 people we work with each year have some vision, while a small percentage of people are completely blind. According to the 2016 census, there are 54,000 people with sight loss in Ireland but that number is rising as the population ages. Throughout our report we have included extracts from our Out of Sight survey, where we took a considerable sample of 351 people who are blind and vision-impaired and asked them their experience of dealing with transport and accessibility. We can look at a breakdown by age of people with sight loss, with 5,081 people aged between 0 and 17; 24,000 people between the age of 18 and 65; and 25,000 people above the age of 66. This is not one cohort of society but rather all ages and all people in our society today.

We have identified sight loss as a huge impact on a person's life, affecting independence, mobility, employment prospects, education, communication and social inclusion. People who are blind or vision-impaired cannot drive and therefore public transport is their only means of accessing work, school, leisure and their independence. Similar to the Irish Wheelchair Association, we have identified where the key issues exist around the different forms of public transport. Fundamentally, even with well-developed mobility skills delivered by the National Council for the Blind in Ireland, NCBI, and our colleagues at Irish Guide Dogs, it is sometimes very difficult for a person to engage with public transport. The challenges start with the booking or buying of tickets and finding information online or via an app and at the station. They continue as the person makes his or her way around the station or Luas platform, awaiting the correct train, bus or Luas and tries to figure out which direction he or she will travel. I cannot emphasise enough the importance of safe spaces when using public transport, and this was tragically highlighted by the death of Ms Patricia Brennan, who in 2014 was killed at Raheny DART station when she fell on the tracks.

For many years the NCBI has engaged with all the transport providers, the Department and the National Transport Authority, NTA, on ways to improve the service for users who are blind and vision-impaired. We genuinely welcome the progress made to date. We also welcome the opportunity to highlight areas that still need to be worked on and which need the establishment of regular, formalised engagement and structures with both the NTA and service providers to ensure that accessibility and future provision for public transport can continue to improve. The NCBI welcomes the Government's commitment in A Programme for Partnership Government to invest in making public transport services accessible for people with disabilities, including the provision of audio announcements on train and bus services to aid people who are blind and vision-impaired.

On the broad points, accessibility to websites and apps - the trend we are all following - is an integral part of people's daily lives. That is no different with anybody who is blind or vision-impaired. This includes travel information, ticket booking and timetables, which should all be available online. A person who is vision-impaired will use either screen magnification or screen reading software but the website and the app must be designed and accessible to make it usable for people with sight loss. We strongly recommend that public transport operators prepare for the full implementation of the EU web accessibility directive, which will ensure that all websites and apps must be made accessible. Member states have until 23 September 2018 to transpose the text to national legislation. The European Commission will adopt implementing Acts by the end of 2018 and this will ensure uniform conditions for the implementation of relevant positions to the directive.

I completely echo Senator John Dolan's points on the public transport review and the difficulty around retro-fitting. It is a point we see time and again, with disability and public transport not at the centre or thought of at the beginning. They are an afterthought and people are retrofitting for accessibility. It is better, cheaper and more effective to think about this at the beginning and everybody wins. We call for a "disability-proofing" approach to everything that is happening in current public transport provision and also the future position of how we are going forward with our public transport. How will it be proofed to ensure it is effective and fundamentally cheaper? It would be a society and Government win. Part of this considers the role of access officers and user groups in the review process and embeds them more fully than they are now. They are vital to an effective consultation process with representative organisations like ourselves and colleagues here today.

Ms Carthy spoke about access to Luas and DART stations and there is a prime example of a lack of joined-up thinking or communication in a Bus Éireann route from Cavan to the Mater hospital in Dublin. It was used by many people with vision impairments travelling to monthly outpatient clinics for treatment for eye conditions but it was suddenly cancelled by Bus Éireann without any communication or information for anybody using it. This highlights a lack of understanding among senior management in Bus Éireann as to the needs of people with sight loss.

We recommend a "disability-proofing" approach that is not expensive or retrospective, and that does not make disability an afterthought. We recommend that the Department and the NTA commit to really consulting with service users and the NCBI in a regular, formalised and more meaningful way than was evident in the current review of public transport services. We strongly urge that all access officer positions are filled and not left vacant. We should prioritise and resource user groups and there should be a new structure for regular formalised engagement, along with consultation around route changes and cancellation. That should be integral to the thinking.

Audible announcements are central to effective public transport for people who are blind or sight-impaired and essential for independent and safe travel. They provide vital information that is not otherwise available to a person who cannot read signs or notices independently. We strongly recommend that all public transport should operate audible announcements both within carriages and coaches and at stations and platforms to enable those people with insufficient vision to have access to the same basic information as the sighted population, such as the destination of the train, tram or bus and the location of the next stop or station.

We welcome the progress made in some areas but it is important to maintain standards and deal with faults. It is also vital staff are trained and aware of the needs of people with disabilities. We hope the National Transport Authority, NTA, will monitor if this is being done, along with the targets and effectiveness of that training. We also call for the review and consequences for misuse or non-compliance by employees of transport companies and the publishing of robust key performance indicators for accessibility.

Many trains and train stations continue to present significant barriers for people who are blind and vision-impaired. In addition to the ongoing lack of audible announcements, with unstaffed stations, people with impaired vision are faced with uncertainty as to the availability of a member of staff to offer assistance on and off the train. People have to give 24 hours notice of travel if they require assistance. The National Council for the Blind of Ireland, NCBI, finds this situation unacceptable. The Government’s policy has recommended travel notice be reduced to four hours instead of 24 hours. We welcome this proposal. We request Irish Rail continues to engage with NCBI more, that stations are more accessible to people who are blind or vision-impaired. NCBI recommends all Irish Rail staff, be they a train operator or the chief executive, engage in disability awareness training to ensure an organisation-wide standard for customers with disabilities. All trains and carriages must have audible announcements which are functioning and maintained to operate correctly. There must be a consistency in approach between public and private operators. The situation with audible announcements is far more consistent on Dublin Bus than on Irish Rail, DART and commuter trains. However, there are still instances where they are not functioning. Customers with vision impairments should be able to rely on the provision of audible announcements for their journeys. As the Department is also responsible for the provision of licences to private transport operators, audible announcements should be prioritised as part of the licensing process.

As the Luas is a newer form of transport, accessibility has been a consideration from the beginning and this good practice is welcome. Integration at the beginning of a project makes it much simpler. However, there are still problems with audible announcements, accessibility and direction. There should be greater consideration of colour contrast between trams, the fixed physical environments and audible announcements for the destination of the tram as people enter and leave. Vision Australia recently opened a training centre to enable vision-impaired people to be trained about external public transport environments.

Taxis are central to the use of a public transport system. We agree with the Irish Wheelchair Association and point to the success of subsidised taxi schemes such as London’s Taxicard system, Chicago’s Open Taxis and Australia’s Multi Purpose Taxi Program, all of which enable subsidised taxi travel to be taken up by people with sight loss and other disabilities.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was an encompassing and inclusive commentary.

I invite Ms Sarah Lennon and Ms Sandra McCullagh, Inclusion Ireland, to make their opening statements.

Ms Sarah Lennon:

On behalf of Inclusion Ireland, I thank the committee for the invitation to address it.

Inclusion Ireland is a national, rights-based advocacy organisation working to promote the rights of people with intellectual disabilities.

Ireland signed the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in 2007 but has not yet ratified it. The convention requires the State will ensure persons with disabilities can access, on an equal basis with others, transportation. Inclusion Ireland endorses the National Platform of Self-Advocates, one of the few disabled persons’ organisations. It conducted research and produced a report, Our Lived Experiences of Housing and Transport. It showed when public transport links were good, participants felt happy because it supported them in accessing education, training, work, social and community supports and networks. However, when public transport did not work well, as can be the experience of many people with disabilities living rurally, connection to opportunities to work, to attend further education and to take part in the community are denied or restricted. Disabled people living in private households were far less likely to own a car in April 2011. People with an intellectual disability do not drive and are dependent on people who do drive or public transport.

These issues are well known and there have been commitments. The programme for Government stated it will examine transport service provision for young persons with disabilities to ensure the service is fit for purpose and consistent with their needs. The recently published national disability inclusion strategy also committed to improving the accessibility. Crucially, the strategy commits to the maintenance of accessibility features. From our advocacy work, accessibility features cannot be relied upon. Lifts in particular can be poorly maintained, leaving it in the lap of the gods as to whether they will be even available. There is evidence that these commitments are not being realised and that for many disabled people, transport continues to be an ongoing barrier to community inclusion.

Inclusion Ireland is aware of poorly accessible information, individuals experiencing less favourable treatment because they are using a free travel pass, late changes to bus timetables or routes which presents a challenge to people with intellectual disabilities or autism, lack of staff or support at train stations meaning difficulty travelling or accessing tickets, inaccurate display or audio systems meaning people travelled beyond their destination. This affects not only people with disabilities but other commuters and tourists.

During recent Inclusion Ireland consultations on public transport, we received feedback that public transport was essential for community living, as well as good mental health and social interaction. Respondents spoke about it being wearying and time-consuming to arrange access. Transport is by no means equal. One participant said carrying disabled people out of their wheelchairs onto Bus Éireann buses is obscene and dangerous in the 21st century.

One person who participated said that carrying disabled people from their wheelchairs onto Bus Éireann buses is obscene and dangerous in the 21st century. Other feedback was that people would like timetables and transport information to be accessible and easy to read throughout the network, with a consistent approach, a consistent template and consistent font used for all accessible information in the network.

As I mentioned, one of the biggest accessibility features is simply maintenance, or standing still in some cases, whereby lifts and so forth are maintained. Senator Dolan mentioned this at the outset but we would encourage the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport to give more regard to its public sector duty. In the Department's most recent strategy statement there was a reference to addressing the commitments by performing an initial assessment of the duty. We are keen to know how that initial assessment is going or if it has begun. If it has not, we strongly encourage the Department to consult with experts through lived experience in preparing that assessment and in developing the statement to ensure that the real life experiences about which the committee members have heard today and which exist outside this room permeate any assessment or plan. That would include passengers with disabilities who are dependent on the public transport system for community inclusion.

Ms Sandra McCullagh:

I will briefly outline the link between inadequate public transport and poverty. People with disabilities are at greater risk of poverty than the general population. They experience much higher levels of deprivation and persistent poverty. People with disabilities have extra costs associated with having a disability and living in an inaccessible and unequal society. Transport can be a significant aspect of those extra costs. Where public transport is poor or unavailable, people require cars or taxis to get around and to access education, work or social experiences. If there is no private car available or if the cost of taxis is prohibitive, people simply miss out, which leads to further poverty and social exclusion.

A recent report by my colleagues in the NCBI indicated that people with visual impairment face additional weekly transport costs of approximately €20 per week to cover the cost of taxis. That figure is a bare minimum and assumes there is an adequate public transport system in place. It is probably an understatement. The report reiterated that rather than being luxuries, people with vision impairment and others rely on the use of taxi services as a basic necessity to live independently. The decision in 2013 to close the mobility allowance and the motorised transport grant scheme to new applicants has placed an additional burden or risk of social exclusion on people with disabilities. The proposed scheme, the Health (Transport Support) Bill, to assist those with a disability to meet their mobility needs appears to have stalled, with the Department of Health and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform considering whether the scheme is capable of being costed and whether it is affordable on its introduction and on an ongoing basis. There is an urgent need to introduce a scheme to replace the other schemes. Sarah Lennon alluded to the consultation we have carried out on our budgetary work. The issue of transport arose in that, as did the issue of mobility grants. People told us that they need the reinstatement of the mobility grant. Its absence has left families in desperate financial distress and has left many people in rural areas without transport.

Many of the citizens with disabilities we encounter through our advocacy work reflect interactions with public transport providers that are undignified and discriminatory. Of particular concern recently is that people we spoke to have referred to the issue of private bus companies not accepting the free travel pass, or private services on public routes prioritising non-free travel customers and leaving disabled passengers behind. The National Platform of Self Advocates research, which my colleague referred to earlier, addresses these issues and recommends that the Government tackles this through funding or extending the travel pass to include a certain number of taxi trips per month or year or a certain number of private bus trips per month or year.

To conclude, Inclusion Ireland thanks the committee for the opportunity to raise these issues. It is clear that a high quality, reliable and accessible public transport system is a critical component of a life in the community. Where public transport is not available, often there is a choice between using taxis or, if the cost of that is too high, simply missing out which results in further social exclusion. The need for accessibility encompasses the entire journey experience. We have spoken a great deal about the physical infrastructure but it also involves accessible information and timetables, disability aware staff and accessible parking in the case of park-and-ride facilities. Inclusion Ireland believes that a high quality, accessible and consistent public transport system is a key element in addressing the cost of disability and the social exclusion faced by people with intellectual disabilities. We urge the Department to equality-proof and disability-proof decisions and consider their actual impact on disabled people.

Dr. Margaret Kennedy:

I am delighted to be present here today and I thank the chairman, the committee members and especially Deputy Robert Troy for the invitation. I have entitled my submission, "Disability transport in Ireland: apartheid or equal?" I have a very rare neuro-muscular degenerative disease that I share with my twin sister, hence the wheelchair. I am a disability rights campaigner and activist. I do not belong to a group or organisation. However, I have a Facebook forum entitled "Wheelchair Rights Ireland" which has 500 followers. We are advocating for better wheelchairs for people who need them. It is sufficient to say that wheelchair provision in Ireland is very poor, and that is where transport begins for many.

All disabled people are my concern. There are 600,000 of them, 13% of the population, and they have been left behind. We are calling for transport rights inclusion. Wheels are my focus. Freedom is my focus. Equality of participation in all areas of society, by all disabled people, depends on wheels. That includes wheelchairs, scooters, buses, trains, the DART and the Luas, although one might call them tracks at that point. Going places is key to living. Travel is wonderful for all disabled people, whether they are visually impaired, deaf, wheelchair users, learning disabled, older or frail. We love freedom.

When the committee members rolled out of their beds this morning the only thing they had to think about was how they would get here. They probably decided on using their cars. However, disabled people no longer have the cars they used to have with the mobility grant or the motorised transport grant, which were removed in 2013 and never replaced. There was a promise to replace them and the money is ring-fenced, but where is that money now? Many rural disabled people and severely disabled people who cannot use public transport depended on those grants.

With regard to buses, people have given me examples of the problems with buses. Brid in County Limerick said that her daughter has a free travel pass. They live in County Limerick outside Limerick city. The local bus runs there twice a day but her daughter cannot use it because she is a wheelchair user and the bus has steps and does not have access. Brid said this is a disgrace. Catherine said that her son cannot travel on the school bus to secondary school as there is no lowering step and he has a physical disability. Although she has told Bus Éireann several times about this, in 2016 and 2017 the private contractor still did not have a lowering step. Now Catherine drives him to school but he misses travelling with his mates and the other students on the bus. Claire, a Bus Éireann employee, told me that all Expressway buses have lifts for wheelchair users but the lifts can be used only where the footpaths are at the right level. The footpaths around the country are still not upgraded by the councils. Apparently, this was supposed to be done in 2016 but the employee said that it will probably take until 2026. This woman said, "People with disabilities should not be restricted like this. I thought we were all supposed to be equal to others". This is separating us from society."

Frank travels from Donegal to Dublin. He says he is lifted bodily, under his arms and legs, out of his wheelchair and up the bus steps. He says it is humiliating, degrading and dangerous. Sometimes the bus staff do not want to help him, so the other passengers do it. This should not be happening in 21st century Ireland. Sorcha said that having to use only the front door of the bus is inaccessible for many wheelchair users and is unsafe for others. It means one must fit into the narrow hallway between the driver and the door. A power chair like hers should not go downward at an angle as it results in her falling off the ramp and getting stuck. This is not because of her or her wheelchair but the ill-considered bus design. It happened to me too.

I have fallen off the ramp several times and do not travel on buses anymore because I am now too scared. This shows the apartheid and separation in bus travel. The causes of our transport difficulties are not our disabilities but, rather, issues ranging from the failings of county councils and bus design to broken ramps. There is apartheid across private and public bus travel and it affects the lives of disabled people, particularly in rural areas, which leads to isolation, separation, frustration, danger and a sense that we are not being catered for. It is not our bodily conditions or diseases that make us disabled but, rather, the structures in place. Our disability is politically constructed. The real cause is disability discrimination and an unwillingness to sort out access issues or regard us as equal passengers. We rely on accessible taxis, despite our low incomes as sometimes they are our only transport lifeline. However, there are too few accessible taxis and many taxi drivers do not want the hassle of loading us. Sean who is sitting behind me has stated he booked an accessible taxi five hours in advance but it did not turn up, leaving him to wait in the freezing cold for one and a half hours . He had to make alternative arrangements. Mary stated the HSE had booked an accessible taxi to take her home from St. Vincent’s University Hospital after a hospital appointment. Her appointment was late starting but finished at 5 p.m. She waited for three hours at the doors of St. Vincent’s University Hospital for the taxi to arrive and was distraught, exhausted and crying. She telephoned a friend of hers who is an RTE reporter who organised and paid for an accessible taxi. The Government needs to roll out a grants scheme to enable us to get taxis and increase the number of accessible taxis available.

Air travel is also a nightmare for many. Some companies damage power wheelchairs when off-loading them from aeroplanes and many provide no accessible toilets or spaces for wheelchair users. I was once seated on an aeroplane and saw a head bob up beside me. It was that of a disabled man who was bottom-shuffling down the aisle to get to the toilet. The indignity and humiliation is not difficult to perceive.

Rail travel is not very different. Lifts are often broken, while broken or switched off emergency call buttons on the DART are an almost permanent feature because children press them and staff turn them off.What if an emergency occurs? My twin sister who is present has Crohn’s disease and a neuro-muscular disease. She has had several terrifying episodes when she needed to get off a train urgently but the emergency buttons were locked. What if someone has a heart attack? Disabled people have to endure broken ramps and station staff forgetting that they are booked in, or worse, get them off the train. That happened to me once while travelling to Dublin from Limerick. It was late, around 9 p.m., and I was exhausted. My neuro-muscular degenerative disease does not cope well with tiredness. I was flopping all over the place and needed my bed, but the staff forgot about me. The train arrived at Heuston Station and everyone got off but me. I was left in darkness at the end of a very long platform with not a soul in sight and became very scared. About 20 minutes or half an hour later a single cleaner arrived and I was rescued.

The fear and anxiety of travel cannot be underestimated. Will they get me on? Will they get me off? Will I end up in some godforsaken place? It happens. That is not what members experience. Why is that? Is this travel apartheid? Why? Is the answer because we are disabled? No, it is because we are not considered. It is not about equality but, rather, discrimination and we must label it as such.

On one occasion my twin and I got on the DART at Greystones and had not booked 24 hours in advance.However, as it takes one hour to get to Connolly Station, we telephoned to say we were on the train and would need a ramp to get off. The officious woman in the Irish Rail office said she could not guarantee that we would be helped off the train. We were already on the DART.Were we to stay on it for 24 hours until the required notice was given? I told her that we were on the DART, but she repeated that she could not guarantee we would be helped off the train. We agonised over whether we would be assisted at Connolly Station, but on that occasion we were. Requiring 24 hours' notice of travel is an apartheid rule. It is a separation from the rules for non-disabled people. Why do different rules apply to us? Non-disabled people can arrive, hop on and hop off any time they want, but we are marked by our disability and destined to need help. We must, therefore, book in advance. The Minister, Deputy Shane Ross has jubilantly declared that we will now only have to give four hours' notice under a pilot scheme, as if that means equality. It does not. I do not want to give any notice, nor do many other disabled people. To have to give four hours' notice means that I have no choice, cannot change my travel plans or go somewhere on the spur of the moment and that I am not free. The requirement to give four hours' notice is not an improvement on the requirement to give 24 hours' notice.We do not want to have to give any notice, as non-disabled people do not. I want to arrive, get on, get off and enjoy my freedom. To have to plan every single journey is a nightmare. It is discrimination. Non-disabled people do not have to do it. There is separation. It would not happen if stations were staffed. We demand that all stations remain staffed. It is unacceptable to take staff away from train stations. We want to be able to travel freely and when we want to, as non-disabled people do, and that can only happen if stations are staffed. Every bus and rail station in the country must be staffed.

Why can we not be part of the travelling passenger community and go our own way with freedom and access? We cannot because of discrimination. Our bodies are not accepted and we are marked as being different and, being different, cannot expect equality of travel. Ireland has not yet ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, ten years after it was opened for signature. We are not accepted as equal in this country. Ten years on I am still not equal and there is an unwillingness to see us as equal or to make us equal. There must be a concerted effort to make us equal because it is discrimination not to do so. We cannot expect things to be made easier or accessible. We cannot expect humanity or to receive support while travelling. We are made to deal with frustration, apartheid, separation, fear, anxiety, broken ramps, there being no station toilets, being forgotten on trains or being forgotten and left on freezing cold platforms, with there being broken lifts and escalators, with unstaffed train and DART stations, no wheelchair spaces, narrow train and bus design, switched off alarms on trains and more, as if we did not exist. We are not thought of in the scheme of travel in Ireland.

Marsha De Cordova, an MP in the United Kingdom, said it was a political choice to build a transport network that so often was inaccessible.She calls it a political choice.That is where equality happens. This is a European country. The President of the European Parliament, Mr. Antonio Tajani, stated:

Our commitment to improve the lives of persons with disabilities is founded in our values as Europeans, including our attachment to freedom, equality and inclusion of all individuals in society. These values have to be translated into concrete actions, to enable every person to live an independent life, and to make sure that our society empowers everyone.

Concrete action is urgently needed on transport provision for disabled people of Ireland. So far, we are in an apartheid of travel discrimination, which must change. What is broken needs fixing and what is inaccessible needs to be made accessible. This is a political choice and the members need to make it happen. This is our public transport too and we deserve, as full citizens of Ireland, simply to be able to get to the station or bus stop, get on, get off and travel freely, safely and without fear and anxiety. This is the members' political choice and I call on them to make it happen.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Dr. Kennedy for her powerful presentation. It was very powerful indeed and it outlined the importance of us doing our job as she asks. It is our job to do that. I will take the members now. Deputy Troy was to be first but Deputy Munster may have to leave.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I give way to Deputy Munster.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Troy is very kind. Prior to this meeting, I had a meeting scheduled for 2.45 p.m. I thank the witnesses for attending and for their thorough and informative presentations. We have known a lot about this and we are battling with the Minister and the Department on it every week. The Irish Deaf Society has put froward a range of practical solutions; for example a button on a bus which people could press to find out what prices were and a live text system. Has the society met with the NTA or CIE on these and what responses were received?

The National Council for the Blind referred to staff hubs and the pilot system for DART services to bring notification periods down to four hours. While reducing the notice period from 24 hours to four hours is an improvement, it is still not satisfactory. Has the council made that abundantly clear? As the last speaker said, the Minister seems to think it is revolutionary. However, it is still not equality with everyone else. A taxi card system was referred to, which would be especially useful for people in rural areas. Is the council aware of the NTA's attitude or that of taxi drivers to such a scheme?

I note to Senator Dolan that we have spoken before. He referred to audio announcements on Bus Éireann which still have not come to fruition notwithstanding the passing of the 30 September date. Were there commitments from other transport services on the same audio announcements? He also mentioned the 48-hour notice period. I have dealt with 24-hour notice for buses in my constituency of Louth and east Meath. Not only is that restrictive, it is compounded by the problem that on many occasions people were left sitting at the side of the road when a bus pulled up which was not wheelchair accessible because, while there was a lift on the bus, the driver was not trained to operate it. That has been rectified to some degree locally but it is still not 100%. That is replicated across the State in every county and town. Senator Dolan said EU law prohibited the imposition of a fee for booking a seat by persons with travel passes for Irish Rail. Has he raised the matter with the company, the Minister or the NTA? We can also do it if that is necessary. If it has been raised, what was the response?

What are the top three proposals Inclusion Ireland has to combat poverty among persons with disabilities? Do they include the mobility allowance, motorised transport grant, an increase in Bus Éireann services or subsidised taxis? Inclusion Ireland said private bus companies can decide not to honour the free travel pass for users. How widespread an issue is that given that private bus operators also do not have the same obligation as public transport companies to meet the needs of wheelchair users despite the fact that they have been awarded public contracts? I am sure other speakers will have plenty of other questions but I apologise for having to leave now. I will check the responses from the witnesses on the transcripts later.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are a lot of questions there. Can the Deputy listen to some of the replies or does she have to leave now?

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am 20 minutes late as it is but I will read the transcript.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

She must leave. That is fair enough. I am happy to proceed whatever way the committee wants to go.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Chairman. I welcome our guests. Their presentations have been extremely helpful and beneficial. This session originated when Dr. Kennedy sent an email to all elected representatives on the proposal for a number of unmanned DART stations. Senator John Dolan also contacted the Chairman on this. We felt that we should work cross-party as a committee to listen to concerns and bring forward recommendations to the Minister on what can be done immediately, in the short term and in the longer term to ensure that there is equal access for people of varying abilities and disabilities. It is very positive to have had the presentations today. To be fair, each group represented has presented us with very practical suggestions we can adopt when we meet in our next session with companies' representatives and, ultimately, feed into the proposals we make to the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport. As such, I thank our guests for attending.

This week is a very significant one from the point of view of the recognition of Irish Sign Language. I compliment the Irish Deaf Society for the work it has done and, in particular Senator Mark Daly, who pioneered and pushed the legislation in this regard. Last week, I had the opportunity to attend a meeting of the Council of Europe. At that level, there are ongoing efforts to ensure that sign language is recognised across the European Union. I was happy to speak in favour of that. It was nice to be in a position to say that Ireland is one of the countries which is leading the way in this regard. It is an area in which we are doing something positive.

A particular issue highlighted by a number of witnesses involved cuts to the mobility allowance and motorised transport scheme in 2013. There was a promise at the time that it was only a matter of suspending the schemes for new applications for a period of months while a new scheme or schemes were formulated. Have the witnesses had any contact with the Department to feed into a new scheme or has the Department given any indication in this regard? To be fair, it is a matter which is raised on an almost weekly basis on the Order of Business and with the Minister in the Dáil but we get the same bland response that a new scheme is nearing completion and will be launched imminently. It has been "imminent" for three years but it has still not been published. I wonder about that.

Another matter I raised last week in the Dáil was the Revenue exemption for people with disabilities when buying a car.

The application of that scheme seems to have become extremely strict. I have two constituents in my community. One is paralysed the whole way down on one side and was told he was not sufficiently disabled to qualify for the scheme. The other person is a young man with very bad multiple sclerosis. Through sheer willpower, he is staying out of a wheelchair. He is literally dragging himself along because he knows that once he goes into one, there is no going back. However, the arm of the State is stating it cannot support him because he is not sufficiently disabled. Do the delegates have any information on that matter?

The delegates have given a good overview and some good proposals. It gives members an opportunity to work with everyone concerned and feed the outcome into their ultimate proposals for the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport. I thank the delegates for their time.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy. I invite Deputy Kevin O'Keeffe to speak next and then Deputy Mick Barry. All the questions can be answered together.

Kevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

While I left this meeting for a while, it is ironic that I was at a meeting of the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs at which Ms Fiona O'Donovan, a colleague of Senator John Dolan - who is attending this meeting on behalf of the Disability Federation of Ireland - was giving a deliberation on how we are fixed on the European scene.

We can be sure that no one will disagree with what is being said here today. We acknowledge there is a problem. I refer to a question that must be asked and which I asked earlier at the other meeting. Words of comfort are great. I come from previous experience in politics in local government. I remember how hard it was to get the councils to make the footpaths dished as a technology for wheelchair users. We have come a long way now with housing grants to make houses more comfortable and accessible for people. Ireland commits a certain percentage of GDP for foreign aid and I note we are joining the UN convention in the next couple of days. For every euro the National Transport Authority gets, can we ask that 1% or 10% of it be designated towards enhancing disability access and mobility? Are we going down a road whereby as a committee and as a Government, we would seek that? It is all fine to say we will sing their praises or that this and that are needed but to put a frame in place, are we talking about setting targets for monetary purposes to the effect that a minimum budget would be guaranteed each year? For instance, when money is given to Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, how much of it is earmarked for disability purposes and access?

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think it is important and positive that all the groups and speakers have addressed the committee today. The points raised are relevant and sharp and put it up to the committee and people in a position of power regarding the transport infrastructure. I will not go through it company by company but Dublin Bus clearly has issues and questions to answer. The same applies to Bus Éireann. I will use my time to talk about Iarnród Éireann because one thing that struck me from the papers and the presentations is that Iarnród Éireann seems to have more questions to answer than some of the others.

Five points jumped out at me. The idea that a person with a disability would have to give 48 hours notice in order to get on a train is not unbelievable, because I do believe it, but it has to be dealt with. It will be 2018 in a month's time. Then there are the questions of the cutback in the number of quiet carriages and, if my understanding is correct, the reduction in the number of wheelchair spaces in the new fleet. There also is a whole range of issues that arise from the presence of unmanned stations such as anti-social behaviour and the protection of people, including women, at night time in stations etc. However, for people with disabilities to be obliged to be dealing with unmanned stations in the year 2017 is outrageous. To add insult to injury, in defiance of EU regulations there is a €5 charge-----

John Dolan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Each way.

.

Deputy Mick Barry:-----to reserve a seat. Did I get that right? It is hard to find a word. That is disgusting. While points have been raised well about Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann, I will focus my questions today on Iarnród Éireann. When Iarnród Éireann appears before the joint committee in the new year, it will be important that those points are raised then also.

I was asked to raise the issue of a particular bus stop in Fermoy in County Cork. It was a disability access point for buses. It is not a country area but is in an urban area in a town. The bus stop was taken out in early 2017 and has not been replaced. It could and should be replaced, which is the right thing to do.

The final point I wish to raise is on the private bus companies. Many, but not all, of the issues there are linked to the question of cutbacks. When there are cutbacks, passengers suffer and people with disabilities suffer more than other passengers. The case is well made for the rights of people with disabilities. The case has also been made in passing for opposition to all cutbacks. It strikes me, from my observations, that if there are major issues with Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann and Iarnród Éireann, there are bigger issues again when it comes to private operators that put the maximisation of profit above all else, including the rights of people with disabilities. I seek comments from the witnesses as to the position with the private operators of those buses and their relative weaknesses and problems as opposed to the public transport service providers.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy. We have had a very wide-ranging discussion. There are common trends in many of the questions and the presentations. I assure everybody here - it is universal within the committee - that we want to effect the changes the witnesses seek. That is our determination. To echo what Deputy Robert Troy said, we will all work together in that respect.

To answer the questions, I will take it in reverse order starting with Dr. Kennedy, if she wishes to respond. I happy with whatever way the delegates would like to respond. I was very conscious of all of the contributions.

Dr. Margaret Kennedy:

I am happy to say a few more things. I do think one of the prime issues is unmanned stations.

I am very worried about unmanned stations. There is no doubt that people can become ill very quickly in the cold. If they are left in an unmanned station, they will need help. One might have diabetic episode or a heart attack and may need help. The whole idea of unmanned stations is really contrary to safety and equality. I do not know what Iarnród Éireann is doing. Recently it told me that it will have an app on a smartphone that will help disabled people. I have not quite figured out what this smartphone app will be all about. How can someone access a smartphone if they are going into a diabetic coma, if they are feeling very unwell, if they are visually impaired or if they have a learning disability?

Moreover, a smartphone is very expensive. I spoke to the Irish Rail manager. He was jubilant about this smartphone idea and I said I had not got a smartphone. I have a basic Tesco pay-as-you-go phone. He said to me that I would simply have to upgrade. I was incensed. I pointed out that many disabled people would not be able to afford a smartphone, or even use one. All he said to me, and cynically, was that I would have to upgrade. We have to put up with that.

It is not thinking about equality, and this is the bottom line. This is not about poor little "crips" who need a little extra help. We are citizens of the State who need equality, and that is where it has to start; equality, equality, equality. People have spoken about undergoing disability awareness training programmes with some companies. It is true that we need awareness about what our disabilities and illnesses are about. More often, however, we need disability equality training. What does it mean to make everybody equal? The politics of disability need to be discussed. I will finish there in order that members and other witnesses can have a word, but I feel very strongly about this. I suppose the committee will feel my anger. There are real rights issues at stake. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities, UNCRPD, is going to ratified next year, we hope. It will have major implications for all of this, thank God. People are going to have to adhere to standards of equality. My bottom line is equality.

John Dolan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The European Commissioner for Education, Culture, Multilingualism and Youth is speaking in the room next door. I would like to give him an opportunity to talk about what the European Union is doing for disabled people. Would it be all right if I said a few words first?

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not mind, but I would like to hear from Inclusion Ireland first.

John Dolan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am in your hands.

John Dolan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would like to hear it first, if that is in order.

Ms Sarah Lennon:

I endorse what Dr. Kennedy said about disability equality training. Awareness is not enough. The barriers disabled people face in terms of different structures are often very unique; therefore, equality training is definitely the way forward. Deputies Munster and Barry both referred to private companies. The UNCRPD does not single out public transport. Rather, it refers to transportation. We must be aware that Ireland has signified very clearly that it intends to set in stone a two-tier system between public and private services. The standards of reasonable accommodation for disabled people will be at different levels for public services vis-à-visprivate services. That will be included in legislation. That is a big problem for Ireland's compliance, and we intend to make a declaration in that regard when we ratify the UNCRPD. It is a big problem, and as to the free travel pass-----

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is Ms Lennon saying the legislation will require a lower standard of private services than public services?

Ms Sarah Lennon:

I refer to the Disability (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. The problem concerns private property rights and whether we can interfere with the rights of private property owners in order to reasonably accommodate disabled citizens. We are not setting separate standards for employment because of a European directive. We have been compelled to have one standard for employment. Until we are compelled to have one standard for services, we intend to continue with two tiers. As such, our public services will be of a higher standard than private services. If the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and the National Transport Authority, NTA, are compelled by their public sector duty to have equality and human rights approaches in place, they should not grant tenders to private companies unless they reach the higher standard.

Unstaffed stations are a significant barrier to people with intellectual disabilities travelling independently. Travelling independently is a massive issue for people with intellectual disabilities in terms of their dignity and inclusion in their community. Often, in our rush towards technological solutions, we simply forget what human support is required for people. I am not just talking about public safety, or protection from anti-social behaviour. We can train people to use ticket machines, but we cannot necessarily train them in what to do if the ticket machines are not working. Having humans available to provide support is very important for people, particularly those with an intellectual disability or autism. As I mentioned earlier, this may also be important to people who are tourists in this country.

Ms Sandra McCullagh:

I would like to address Deputy Imelda Munster's question around costs of disability and poverty. She specifically asked for three strategies and that is what I will provide. There are many ways of addressing the costs of disability. The three main approaches would be to increase income; to reduce the extra costs people experience; and to remove the disabling barriers that exist in society. In the context of our discussion about transport today, we can increase income by implementing a cost-of-disability payment. That would be a personalised payment to people with disabilities to address the extra costs that they experience in order to live an independent life. It would be a cost of disability payment.

The schemes we used to have, the mobility allowance and the motorised transport grant scheme, were in essence addressing the extra costs of disability that people experience due to inaccessible transport. The implementation of the new Health (Transport Support) Bill is an important step, and that should happen as soon as possible.

The last and most important approach is to remove the disabling barriers that exist in society. Again, Dr. Kennedy has spoken much more eloquently than I on this topic. That is one of the crucial ways of reducing those extra costs. In the context of transport, that would involve the provision of a reliable, accessible and comprehensive public and private transport system that people with disabilities can access on an equal basis to others. Those are three concrete steps that can be taken to address those costs.

Ms Joan Carthy:

I would like to address the question of whether the Ministers had been informed if the different groups were happy with the reduction of hours. I will start by saying that I do not think any organisation has called for hours to be reduced in its submission. They have always said that we need to be able to travel freely. It was never the contention that lesser hours would be good enough. Speaking for our own organisation, along with others, both of these issues were brought up with the Minister over and over again in pre-budget submissions and in any opportunity that we have had. We have also raised them with the current Government and previous Governments. All this information is out there in all sorts of different formats, and has been brought forward. When something happens in a piecemeal sort of way, there is a sense that we should be grateful for what we are given. When something happens, such as the reduction from 24 hours to four hours, the assumption is that we are happy with it. That not the same thing as giving us the opportunity to be part of that discussion, to say if we are happy or unhappy about it.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A huge number of people use DART stations at particular times of the day. It is an anticipatory fact that someone is going to be there. That is why they should be manned.

Somebody is going to turn up.

Ms Joan Carthy:

At this moment, with the guide being given out, the suggestion is there be a person who would cover several different stations. The assumption is only one person with a disability would be travelling at a given time.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a very important point. I appreciate Senator John Dolan is under pressure as he is also a Member of the Lower House.

John Dolan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Imelda Munster raised a number of matters and both I and others can return with supplementary information. An issue concerning audio was raised at the committee last March and dot matrix facilities are for people who are deaf. There was a commitment given on foot of that meeting by an official that it was hoped to have those elements in place by 30 September this year, but they are still not in place. That is the straight-up answer. The question of whether people are happy having to give 24 hours to 48 hours of notice has been well answered by people here. It should not exist. Rosa Parks in the United States was allowed on the bus, although she had to sit at the back. We do not get on the bus much of the time. What happened there was wrong and so is this.

With regard to bus driver training and lifts, I understand from drivers and their representatives that they would be happy to undertake such a step. We can come back to it later as there are issues with training. There is the matter of booking cost. When I was in Brussels with disability representatives last week I met staff from the transport Commissioner's office. We raised it among a number of matters. If a state is not charging others to book tickets, there is clearly a violation if a cohort is being charged. I wonder if a bit of fundraising is going on.

Deputy Robert Troy asked about cuts to the mobility allowance and if we have contacted the Department in that respect. The petitions committee had a meeting before Christmas attended by the Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, and it specifically dealt with that matter. The Deputy is dead right as it was stopped at the end of February 2013 and the devil and all was to be done; it was to be sorted out fairly smartly. Much has been said about the fact that the scheme has not been closed down and people who were in the scheme can continue in it. It is almost five years since it was stopped. People who would have qualified for that scheme over those five years have lost out. The motorised transport grant was completely abolished, and it would give people a leg-up in buying a new car.

There is quite an interesting solution. We were told at the time the scheme was abolished because it violated the equal status legislation. Section 14 of the Equal Status Act 2000 states:

Nothing in this Act shall be construed as prohibiting - (a) the taking of any action that is required by or under -

(i) any enactment or order of the court,

The Oireachtas could have legislated to keep that scheme as it was running and then dealt with the fact that the scheme was only taking people on up to age 65 years. It could have introduced subsequent legislation to widen it. It could have been kept going. There was mention of prioritising resources in the National Transport Authority, NTA. It is certainly something to be looked at. We understand party whips but there is no disability whip when it comes to these matters. Some issues are prioritised over disability. We are almost there but we are never there. This country must swallow hard one of these days and do the right thing.

Deputy Mick Barry asked about the 48-hour notification and focused particularly on Irish Rail. He mentioned the quiet carriages and less accessible spaces. We can give information on those chapter and verse. There will be an opportunity to explore such matters when the rail people come in. He also mentioned unmanned stations. With regard to private operators, as a State we give them a licence, so why give this to a for-profit entity without ensuring it is responsible for providing an accessible service? The person who is disabled should be blind to operators - I hope I will be forgiven for using that phrase - because they should all be able to provide the same service. One should not need to know the logo. A public service should be accessible.

Mr. Chris White:

I will take up a couple of points mentioned by Deputy Imelda Munster. As I said, we welcome the reduction of notice time to four hours, but we do not see it as a finishing point. We welcome it as a progression from a poor position to a better position but it is not the end. We want to see fully staffed stations as a matter of course at every location in the country, thus enabling equal access. The taxi card system would not be a new matter for any Minister in transport or social protection. We have made the suggestion in many pre-budget submissions and direct engagement with Ministers. It has always been well received as a good idea but the political will to deliver it is clearly challenging.

I echo my colleagues in the sector in that we are very concerned about private bus operators and the ability to deliver an equal and accessible service. We must ensure that the NTA and the licensing process are rigorous in how they police private operators of bus lines around the country so as to enable equal access, whether people are in Fermoy, Dundalk, Letterkenny or Dublin. It cannot just be about public services providing accessible transport. It must be universal.

Mr. Eddie Redmond:

The presentations were great. Unfortunately, I am not surprised by what has been said. Everybody experiences issues in different ways, but the discrimination is very clear for everyone. As deaf people, we tend to focus on communication barriers. I referred to deaf awareness and visibility awareness training, and that may come. Funding is an issue in providing the training and the Irish Deaf Society would not have sufficient resources to provide deaf awareness training to those bodies. There needs to be Government support to enhance that awareness and provide training.

Before Dublin Airport opened Terminal 2, it asked different organisations to have a look at accessibility issues and try to identify potential barriers. Five or six years later what we asked for at that time still have not come to fruition. We asked for live text to be made available but that has not happened. There is no signing notification either. Terminal 2 could have had these but the action did not follow the requests.

It can be frustrating that we are involved and are being asked for our views but things are not changing. It is the 21st century and there is still an attitude that we are not all included from the very beginning.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Mr. Redmond. Does Dr. Kennedy wish to come in?

Dr. Margaret Kennedy:

On insurance, if someone is not there to put us on the train, members of the public often want to help and run to get the ramps and put them up for us. However, they are not insured or trained to do so. My sister and I were helped onto the train by boys from Blackrock College. It is a great college and they were great and well-meaning boys but they were untrained children. That was not covered by insurance. Such a situation is not safe for us. Apparently, drivers are not allowed to put the ramps down. I was told that their unions do not allow them to do so because it is not part of their contracts or whatever. Some drivers put them down. I had an unfortunate experience with a driver who was quite angry that he had to do so.

As regards forgetting people, several disabled people have been forgotten by Irish Rail or other companies. If a disabled passenger is left stranded, there must be an immediate sanction for the company and an immediate compensatory scheme for the disabled person. Monetary sanctions always make companies work better. They should be fined. There has to be accountability for leaving disabled people sitting on freezing platforms for two, three or four hours and only monetary sanctions will ensure that. They should be fined and compensation should be given to the affected disabled person. Most importantly, stations should be manned.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would Senator John O'Mahony like to comment? I appreciate he has been very busy all day with votes in the Seanad.

John O'Mahony (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise for my intermittent attendance. I have all of the presentations in print form but because of votes in the Seanad have been unable to be present for all of the discussion. I was in earlier and heard some of it. It was frightening to hear of the ways in which many of the delegates are discommoded on various forms of transport. I was under the impression that huge advances had been made but it is obvious that has not happened.

As regards the blind, some of the recommendations made by witnesses would not cost much money. It is inexcusable for those steps not to be taken. I have been ploughing a path to the office of the Minister regarding the motorised transport grant for the past three years because it was suspended in 2013 and was supposed to be re-established by October of that year but that has not been done and, although I am a Government Member, I consider that to be indefensible.

The delegates have outlined many things that need to be done. It would be great if they could all be done immediately. However, I am unsure whether essential priorities that could be easily and quickly addressed in the short term have been outlined. Does any of the delegates have a view on that matter?

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the delegates for attending the meeting and giving us their views. Their convictions carry huge weight and truth and we need to act on them-----

John O'Mahony (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise for interrupting the Chairman, but may I get a brief answer to my question?

Mr. Chris White:

A priority for us is the importance of audible signals on all forms of transport, which, as Senator John O'Mahony pointed out, would have almost no cost. Getting effective audible signals 100% active across all sections of the public transport network would be a big win for us and make a massive difference.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The delegates want change and equality, as do members. It is the job of the committee to transparently bring the witnesses' points to the attention of the companies and people responsible. The committee will have to discuss that but it seems to me that we should bring the chief executives of the transport companies - the boss people - before the committee. The committee will have to hand the contributions of today's delegates and will summarise them and ask those chief executives to appear not to give speeches but to respond to the points raised and to outline how and what they will change. Following that, we can seek to have the Minister, the National Transport Authority, the National Disability Authority, Dublin Airport Authority and other such bodies appear. We will also seek representatives of local authorities because there is a huge problem with simple mobility such that it is often impossible to go from one street to another because paths are not properly lit and there is inadequate access to proper interchanges, crossover intersections and so on. That is how we will proceed. We will have to discuss it fully, but we will ensure the transport authorities that run the systems discussed today will be here to respond directly to the questions raised. Today's delegates will be made aware of dates and times and what we are doing.

It has been a very important discussion and very enlightening in the sense that one is not often aware of all the relevant issues. I was aware of some, but I am now far better briefed and understand clearly what the committee has to do.

I now propose that the committee go into private session. I thank the delegates for their attendance.