Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 7 December 2017
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality
Policing Issues: An Garda Síochána
10:30 am
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The purpose of today's engagement is to meet representatives of An Garda Síochána to discuss a range of issues, including the recent Crowe Horwath report commissioned by the Policing Authority on matters relating to mandatory breath testing and the issuing of summonses by An Garda Síochána, and other matters as we have flagged. I welcome the deputy commissioner, Mr. John Twomey, who is joined by Mr. Michael Culhane, executive director of finance and services; Mr. John O'Driscoll, assistant commissioner responsible for special crime operations; Mr. Joseph Nugent, chief administrative officer; Mr. Michael Finn, assistant commissioner responsible for roads, policing and major event management; and Mr. Michael O'Sullivan, assistant commissioner responsible for security and intelligence. They are accompanied by Superintendent John Ferris of the Garda press office; Superintendent Marie Broderick of the Office of the Commissioner; Inspector Darren McCarthy of the Office of the Commissioner; and Ms Kate Mulkerins, executive director for legal and compliance. I may have called out one person who is in the Visitors Gallery. Mr. Twomey will be invited to make an opening statement to be followed by a questions and answers session.
As the witnesses will know from experience, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should be aware that under the salient rulings of the chair they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or any official by name in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
I now invite the deputy commissioner, Mr. Twomey, to make his opening statement.
Mr. John Twomey:
The committee has asked us to address a number of issues in five minutes. I will give a brief overview of each issue and then we will be happy to take whatever questions follow. On the Crowe Horwath report, as we stated during our public session with the Policing Authority two weeks ago, and I repeat here today, An Garda Síochána unreservedly apologises for the unacceptable behavioural and governance failures which led to the widespread inaccurate recording of mandatory alcohol breath tests over a period of time. Significant organisational failures have undermined both the validity of statistical data produced by An Garda Síochána and the contribution of breath tests to road safety. The systems and governance failures that led to the wrongful prosecution and conviction of individuals for road traffic offences is again an unacceptable failure by the Garda organisation for which we unreservedly apologise.
Our focus now is on ensuring such failures cannot and do not occur again. A series of measures relating to governance, systems, data quality, culture, ethics, policy and oversight, allied with individual and collective accountability have either been put in place or are in the process of being put in place. Our approach to regaining public confidence will be centred on achieving the right behaviours, guided by the right values.
Regaining public confidence to levels previously enjoyed will not be achieved overnight and that is why we are focusing on strategic initiatives which will provide solid foundations for public confidence in the medium and long term. These will be matched with actions in the short term to address any outstanding governance, systems, policy and technical failures which caused this crisis.
Measures to be taken include: ethics training for all personnel; reckless or deliberate misrecording of information to be treated as a serious disciplinary breach; the employment of a chief data officer and a number of data quality initiatives; individual and team performance reviews; the restructuring and strengthening of the traffic corps units into roads policing with increased personnel and new functions; and to enhance front-line supervision with 250 sergeant and 50 inspector vacancies to be filled in 2018 with further supervisors provided to front-line policing through civilianisation during the same year.
We are also considering proposals to extend training recently conducted for all senior managers under the auspices of the Kennedy Institute Maynooth University to address this issue through a restorative process. It is intended that this approach will have a greater impact on changing behaviour than the adversarial approach which focuses on who is to blame and what punishment or sanction is required, but ultimately does not change behaviour.
On the Garda budget, it is critical that An Garda Síochána provides an efficient and effective policing and security service within the budget available to us. An Garda Síochána is keenly aware that this is taxpayers’ money and we have a duty to spend it wisely ensuring value for money. Our overtime budget in 2017 was under significant strain throughout the year and required a supplementary budget from Government. In order to ensure that we could stay within the funding made available to us for 2017, it was necessary to reduce non-essential overtime for a period of six days at the end of November.
Policing services, however, continued during that time, in the area of serious and organised crime in the Dublin metropolitan region under Operation Hybrid, under Operation Thor, which is the nationwide anti-burglary initiative, and in a number of other road safety initiatives. Additional resources were provided for these and other such serious operations.
We were provided with a significant budget in 2017. The same level of budget will not be available to us in 2018. It is incumbent on us, as senior managers in the organisation, to ensure we stay within that budget for 2018, particularly in light of the increasing number of Garda personnel and civilians who have joined the organisation in the past number of years, and who will join during 2018. This has been reiterated to all senior managers.
As we outlined two weeks ago to the Committee of Public Accounts, as part of the programme for Government six Garda stations were to be reopened on a pilot basis. The Commissioner was asked by the Department of Justice and Equality to identify those six stations with specific criteria, to include a mix of urban and rural, a minimum of one in Dublin, and a good geographical spread. Furthermore, the Department advised that the stations to be considered for reopening must still be in State ownership. In total, 139 Garda stations were closed originally. Of these, 78 could potentially be reopened. In Dublin, for example, four stations could potentially be reopened. Based on the criteria provided, a scoping exercise was conducted by an assistant commissioner, with views taken from each relevant regional assistant commissioner following consultation with local stakeholders. Census data was also examined, as was data on crime trends from the Garda Síochána analysis service.
Following a report from the assistant commissioner, Mr. O'Driscoll, the acting Commissioner approved the reopening of the following stations. In alphabetical order, they are Ballinspittle, Bawnboy, Donard, Leighlinbridge, Rush and Stepaside. They comprise a station close to the Border, two in Dublin but at either end of the county with one of them large and the other smaller, another in the most southerly part of west Cork, along with a spread across five of the six Garda regions. This reflects ample consideration of the criteria provided to us. In this regard, we are liaising with the Office of Public Works to determine what remedial works need to be done at each station, the length of time it will take to complete the work and the associated costs of the works. Furthermore, an examination of the resources required will be undertaken, which will examine the numbers of staff, equipment and vehicles and the ICT infrastructure required to determine in what order these stations are opened and the timeline for when they are likely to be opened. This review will also take into account the Garda personnel available and any pressing existing resource requirements.
The procedures governing communication between the Commissioner and the Department of Justice and Equality are set out in legislation, under sections 26 and 41 of the Garda Síochána Act. The Commissioner is obliged to keep the Department of Justice and Equality informed of relevant matters relating to policing and security issues. An Garda Síochána and the Department of Justice and Equality are finalising a joint communications protocol governing all communications between both bodies. This includes the circumstances and issues which would give rise to the Commissioner informing the Minister for Justice and Equality of matters of concern under section 41 of the Garda Síochána Act.
A member of An Garda Síochána was injured this morning. He was shot in the line of duty. I want to take this opportunity to wish him and his family, and all the people injured in the incident, best wishes.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We wish to join the deputy commissioner in that message of good wishes. I thank Mr. Twomey for his opening address. It is now open to members and the first to have indicated was Deputy Clare Daly.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I echo the remarks of sympathy and I thank the witnesses for coming in. I will be relatively brief because I am getting a bit sick of these meetings, and I do not mean that in a derogatory way. This is the third sitting we have had on the same events. The first time we sat here we got the apologies and explanations. We were told systems were in place and they were going to be dealt with. The second time we had the internal report telling us all the measures that had been put in place and the new explanations. Now we have another report giving us more explanations and contradicting some of the previous explanations. Where it really gets me is that issues which I specifically put to the Garda Síochána the last time directly and repeatedly, and I have the transcript, particularly on the issue of checkpoints, were disputed by all the witnesses stating it was not the case. I put it that the issue really was checkpoints and that we had considerable evidence on this. One would not have to be a rocket scientist to realise that one of the key reasons the breath test figure was being inflated was because checkpoints which went up on the system and then had to be cancelled were being recorded as having been done. The witnesses told me this could not happen. Crowe Horwath's report states this is exactly what happened and it put it much more articulately than I did. It states some members would inflate the number of checkpoints recorded on PULSE, and thereby the number of breath tests, in order to be seen to have delivered the number of checkpoints authorised for that tour of duty. It also states they simply could not manage to perform all those which had been authorised and the habit had, therefore, developed of entering erroneous data onto PULSE. For instance, if three were authorised and only one was carried out, two checkpoints might be registered on PULSE. As we all know, a zero cannot be registered so five or six breath tests would have to be put in. What is the point of us coming here and asking questions? That is my first question.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does the Deputy wants to have that dealt with as a stand-alone question or does she want to add to it?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have other points on the checkpoints. How can the witnesses explain the patent disparity between what they said here on the previous occasion when I put these issues to them and how the Crowe Horwath report absolutely vindicates all those questions, which they vociferously denied? That is my first question.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Would any of the witnesses like to respond?
Mr. Michael Finn:
I recall being here on the previous occasion and I have also read the transcripts as late as last night with regard to that question. The Deputy asked me whether there was evidence those checkpoints were not being performed. I truthfully answered the question at the time, that we did not believe so and we had no evidence of it. However, we conducted an internal investigation and Crowe Horwath subsequently conducted an investigation. It highlighted the fact checkpoints were put on the system which had not been done. We acknowledge that now, and we acknowledge these are the issues we are addressing now. Crowe Horwath acknowledged the fact that what we have done since has contributed to the situation whereby we are now confident that what is going on is going on correctly.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The problem I have with that is that I am just a member of the public and I knew it was going on. I am not particularly bright, but it did not take a whole lot of work to figure out that had to be one of the reasons it was going on. We have two problems with the response. One is that the Garda commissioned an internal report that did not pick this up and did not acknowledge it existed. The other is that the witnesses came here as senior managers in An Garda Síochána and they did not know then it was going on, but we knew. It is just astounding.
Mr. Michael O'Sullivan:
I made it quite clear in my report that that is the position. Perhaps it would be useful to read my report in its entirety. It is also quite clear that I stated that it would require 502,000 incidents to be individually examined and analysed to get to the exact bottom of what the extent of it is. I did not deny that in my report. I made it quite clear it was the case. To get to the exact scale of it, and they are exactly the words that Crowe Horwath used in its report, would require a detailed examination of more than 502,000 checkpoint records on PULSE.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The report also denied the fact that any pressure was put on by management in this regard, a finding that was completely contradicted by Crowe Horwath's report, which said it was exactly that pressure to report performance that was at the back of it. That is what it states and I am just repeating it. I have it in front of me. This is in direct contradiction to what the witnesses stated. We had a full discussion here on this issue on the previous occasion and the issue was denied. I put the scenario of how it could possibly have happened and how management did not spot it when checkpoints were being returned on the system as having been conducted on a tour of duty when, maybe, a whole plethora of other work had been going on that night in the station. I spoke about how management in a station never thought of joining the dots and asking how could there have been three checkpoints the previous night given there was a riot on the main street and the station was processing people all night and arresting them. It just did not add up. On the previous occasion, the witnesses denied that could have happened, and Mr. O'Sullivan's report does not address it. I know the point on the analysis of digging down and getting the exact numbers, but it was not identified in the report as being a reason for this.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does the assistant commissioner deny-----
Mr. Michael O'Sullivan:
I am not denying that checkpoints were not done. I am saying that to identify the scale involved would have taken a detailed examination of more than 502,000 records. I am also on record as having stated that it would take one individual more than 21 years to listen to the recordings related to these 502,000 records. I did not deny that checkpoints were not being done. My report and the Crowe Horwath report highlight the fact that this was not picked up in divisions as a failing. There are now fixes in place. One of the key findings in both reports was on the lack of supervision. I highlighted at the previous meeting the lack of supervision at sergeant, inspector and district officer level. There was no intrusive supervision during the period in question.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There are two problems with the assistant commissioner's reply.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Deputy Commissioner Twomey wishes to make an additional point.
Mr. John Twomey:
I will explain the system that was in place at the final stage. The schedule was added in advance of the tour of duty and the process that applied was that the checkpoints would be cancelled after the duty. While I am not sure of the exact figure, between 30% and 35% of checkpoints are cancelled. We have acknowledged and accepted that the processes in place and the governance around these processes need to be improved. We have endeavoured to take lessons from this to ensure these issues will not arise again. Assistant Commissioners Finn and O'Sullivan have highlighted the processes we have put in place to learn lessons from the past and try to ensure that this will not happen again. In all our appearances before the committee, we have acknowledged the failings and weaknesses in a myriad of different areas. We have put in place processes to ensure we address these issues in the future.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The problem with that response is that the denial was not about checkpoints but that this was a major contributory factor to the elevation of breath tests. That was not dealt with in the original internal report. The statement that lessons have been learned is somewhat undermined by Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan's point that the problem was caused by a lack of supervision, a lack of sergeants and so on. The Crowe Horwath report specifically makes the point that the problem was not linked to a reduction in the number of sergeants and that, in fact, some divisions with fewer sergeants performed significantly better than other divisions with more sergeants. That is another contradiction. The witnesses will see the problem members have with these meetings.
As to the point of explaining to members the system for nullifying checkpoints, we know that as we discussed that precise scenario at our pervious meeting. It was in that context that we asked how the Garda could be sure all of the scheduled checkpoints that should have been cancelled were cancelled. We were basically told it was not possible for gardaí to claim they were out on checkpoints when they were not. The meeting then discussed technology, automated cars and that while this practice may have happened in the past, there was no way it would happen now. However, it was happening.
Mr. Michael O'Sullivan:
On the issue of supervision, the Crowe Horwath report, on page 71, refers to "the absence of adequate supervision, linked to the reduction in supervisory numbers in many Garda Divisions and compounded by a change to the five-shift system, which left supervisors thin on the ground in many locations".
Mr. John Twomey:
The report makes many different findings. To take one finding and attribute it as accounting for the majority or minority of them is the key issue we are trying to address. There are many findings and we are bringing a process to address all of them. I believe this is the issue Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan is referring to. The difficulty lies in applying a weighting to one factor over another when there are 502,000 individual records. One cannot say one issue is more responsible than another. What we are trying to do is to get in behind and under that. We have brought about a combination of recommendations which we believe will address all the issues in a holistic fashion.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What I am trying to do is to highlight the inconsistencies in the answers we were given at the two previous meetings, including when we met the former Garda Commissioner, Ms O'Sullivan, and the answers we are being given now. The Crowe Horwath report addresses the specific issue of checkpoints on page 45 where it states the problem was not linked to a reduction in the number of sergeants. It also refers to the point I made concerning different divisions. We will move on.
I also found interesting the point made about the apparent lack of knowledge when the internal report was done that the working group on the Garda Inspectorate report was up and running. This is incredible. How could it be possible that the author of the internal report did not know the working group was up and running?
Mr. Michael O'Sullivan:
The group had not been meeting and certainly had not been fulfilling the functions, as I saw them, that were recommended by the Garda Inspectorate's report. I would revamp that particular board as little had been progressed since the report of the inspectorate issued. Certainly, many of the recommendations made in our report and the Crowe Horwath report should be taken on with greater urgency. While the group had been sitting, I am not sure how many times it had met.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The problem with that answer is that according to the Crowe Horwath report, the Garda Inspectorate's report made 37 recommendations, of which the working group has implemented 22, yet in the internal report, the assistant commissioner stated he was not even aware the working group was in place. Senior Garda management were not aware, yet this was a working group that involved An Garda Síochána in a fixed charge penalty process review. Crowe Horwath stated 22 recommendations had been implemented, whereas the internal report stated the group had not been meeting and hardly any recommendations had been implemented. Does Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan understand the difficulty members are having at these meetings?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If the Deputy has any other issues on which she would like to focus-----
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will move on to another issue. We raised the issue of overtime with the Minister last week. One of the reasons an organisation would need overtime would be to cover sick leave and other absences. Are the witnesses aware of a problem with the recording of sick leave absences? Are there any issues with the system of sick leave, particularly in respect of work-related stress? What are the figures on the numbers of members of the Garda who are absent at various levels due to work-related stress or accidents?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
To deal with the statistics in the first instance, the number of sworn members availing of sick leave on 5 December was 575. The number of members on light duties or restricted hours as at 30 June - I apologise for the date but it is indicative - was 474. Those are the two sets of statistics. Clearly, this has an impact on the number of individuals available for operational policing roles.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Mr. Nugent have an idea of the number of gardaí who have been absent for prolonged periods, for example, more than one, two or three years?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That would be great. Is Mr. Nugent aware of issues being raised regarding problems with the recording of sick leave absences?
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Mr. Nugent is not aware of any case involving a person being certified as being absent for, say, work-related stress reasons and this being returned on the file that he or she had influenza, a mental health problem or something else.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Mr. Nugent is not aware of any or many cases such as the one to which I referred.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Are any of the other witnesses aware of any or many cases such as the one I outlined?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Mr. Nugent's response will be circulated to all members.
Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is anyone else aware of the issue I have highlighted?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is fair enough.
Mr. John Twomey:
We can find the information and statistics. Members are injured on duty and this is recorded accordingly.
There are variations. Someone who is injured on duty today is recorded as sick and that might recur in a year or two. Sometimes there is a discussion as to whether that links back to the original injury. Those things are ongoing on an almost daily basis. I cannot comment on the extent of them. If there is a suggestion that there is a particular issue-----
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There is a particular issue that Deputy Clare Daly raised, not for the first time this morning, about stress-related illness.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is something about which we should all be concerned.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It would be very helpful if the information she has sought were furnished.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Nugent.
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I was sorry to hear on the radio this morning about the garda being shot. It is horrific for him and everyone involved with him. Believe it or not, I know a lot of gardaí and I understand how they feel about each other. I extend my condolences to them.
I, too, will be brief. We asked a lot of questions at the previous meeting. As Deputy Clare Daly outlined, we were not very happy with the responses we received. The common themes and conclusions in the report were: inadequate and inconsistent performance management; a deficit of accountability throughout the Garda Síochána; management that failed to ensure that adequate processes, training and supervision were in place; and a culture that displayed a casual approach to data, which is obviously linked to the fact that it is now so difficult to hold people to account. In cost-benefit terms, it is considered too expensive to hold people to account because the data have been so poor. What we find mind-boggling is that the phrases "I didn’t know" and "I didn’t ask" featured on the previous occasion. We spoke to many members of the Garda Síochána - of all ranks - before the report came out. They told us what was happening. They knew what was happening and they were able to tell us. When we come to the committee and put the questions to the witnesses, however, they deny knowing anything about it. This is not rocket science. If the witnesses did not know anything about it, the obvious question is why that is the case, particularly as they are running the organisation. If they did know, they are pulling the wool over our eyes. We do not know the answer. All we know is that the witnesses do not need us to tell them that their organisation is being questioned as to how it is being managed.
The majority of people in this country still think the average garda is a good guy. I can say for a fact that I would prefer to be dealing with the police in Ireland than in Italy or France. The ordinary members of the Garda Síochána are seriously upset and angry in many cases about how the organisation is run. The witnesses are the people who are running it. We have been challenging some of the Garda Commissioners because we felt they were not doing the job properly. We like to think that the boss should be in charge and take responsibility but from what we can see, that is not what happens. In the context of the absolute shambles of the inflated breath-testing statistics and those relating to checkpoints, I do not accept that it is so difficult to hold people to account on foot of the fact that there are so many issues and people involved. My feeling is that the people who run the organisation must surely take more responsibility. That is not happening, however. The witnesses are in denial rather than it being a case of putting their hands up and saying it goes back to senior management because that is where it starts. There are not so many senior managers that they could not be held to account. Perhaps someone might clarify the situation.
Mr. John Twomey:
At the Policing Authority and here this morning, what we have endeavoured to do is accept responsibility. We have set out what we see as the issues right throughout the entire organisation, starting with the Commissioner and going right through at all the various levels. We have put that in writing and we said it at the previous meeting. We said it most recently at the meeting with the Policing Authority. We accept that there were governance issues and failings at management level. We accept that there were issues in respect of the systems. We accept that there were issues regarding the processes and training and that there was a combination of issues involved. This started in 2006 and it runs for that period. The system has changed. There was a lack of training and supervision. What we have tried to do both in Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan’s report but also in our most recent public appearances at the Policing Authority is acknowledge each and every one of those elements of what went wrong and address them all. I have accepted responsibility here again today for the failings that happened, and the acting Commissioner did so on the previous occasion. What I am doing this morning - and what we have provided in writing - is setting out how we believe we are going to address the situation. That applies across the entire organisation.
We have brought in the Kennedy Institute of Maynooth University to look at the behaviours. One can have all the systems, governance and processes, but one must have the proper cultures and behaviours guided by the proper values because that is where the real learning comes out of all of this. We have addressed each and every one of those elements that we believe is necessary in order to ensure that this will not happen again. We are looking at this crisis as an opportunity to ensure that into the future all of our actions will be guided by the right behaviours and values. We have said before that what we want are people doing the right thing even when nobody is looking. That is where we are trying to move to, and we have brought in a variety of different measures to ensure we will do that. We are committed to doing that and to delivering it. What is central to all of that is our code of ethics. We in senior management have already undergone training on the code of ethics and the restorative practice training with the Kennedy Institute. We are taking the lead by having senior management undergoing this training at the outset. It is not a simple fix. It is not accurate to say that if we fix this problem, the rest of it will be solved. There are myriad problems and that is what we are trying to do. We are trying to bring a whole-of-organisation approach to this.
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Mr. Twomey accept that if as many mistakes in respect of poor management had occurred in any area of the private sector, people would be held to account and would lose their jobs? Can he think of any area in the private sector in which, given the nature of everything that has gone on, people would not be held to account and heads would not roll? Is there any area in the private sector where Mr. Twomey thinks people would be allowed to move on and say they would get it right the next time, that those involved would be sorry and nothing would happen?
Mr. John Twomey:
It is not a question of moving on. We have set out, in some detail, the actions that were taken to address the situation. We are taking responsibility. We are acknowledging what has happened in the past. We accept that what happened was unacceptable. We have apologised for that. We are putting in structures and processes now to ensure that it will not happen again. We have accepted responsibility and we have shown leadership by starting with the senior management of the organisation in terms of governance, the code of ethics and the behaviours we want throughout the entire organisation.
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Can Mr. Twomey see the problem that the public has whereby the perception is that management was a disaster and that the former Commissioner walked off with €300,000 plus a pension of approximately €90,000 a year? Members of the public have a problem getting their heads around that.
Mr. John Twomey:
Again, what I can say to that is there have been new additions to the management team. It has been brought up to full strength. Proper resources have been put in around that.
We are talking of a period from 2006 when there was a serious reduction in the number of resources, particularly at senior management level. Notwithstanding all of that, we accept responsibility and accept that is our role. We are setting up what we are going to do to ensure this does not happen into the future. There is satisfaction with the organisation. It is the positive piece of this, and as was said earlier, most people in Ireland want to work with An Garda Síochána. We will take that positive to work on and to build on and we will do whatever we need to ensure we continue to provide a proper and effective policing service to the people.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I believe that Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan wants to come in.
Mr. Michael O'Sullivan:
With regard to Crowe Horwath and whether the organisation looks forward or looks back, looking forward I have done a piece of work, which is referred to in the Crowe Horwath report. The work looks at where the organisation will go in examining and looking at all the incidents, where culpability might lie and if recordings were deliberate. I have already referred to it taking a potential 28 years to listen to the phone calls. It would cost the taxpayer some €6.9 million to put a team together and any form of investigation, without ever having one disciplinary hearing, and we know from Mr. Justice Charleton's comments last week what he thinks of the disciplinary process.
On the other hand, the Crowe Horwath report recommends that "the focus of An Garda Síochána should now be on correcting these problems across all dimensions (procedures, technology, training, supervision, accountability etc) rather than conducting continuing and lengthy examinations into the scale of past discrepancies".
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the assistant commissioner.
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Only this week we met a member of An Garda Síochána who has just submitted a protected disclosure. He is out of work sick for a while due to stress at work. He has given us incredibly detailed information about things that have been happening, right up until recently. To be honest, we found it hard to believe that the things he told us about could still be happening, including how senior management dealt with this when he raised concerns about certain issues. It was very disheartening for us because while people might think that Deputies Daly and Wallace just want to give out about things, we will not be vindicated until we have a police force that everybody is proud of. We have been tackling these issues for five years, and if nothing is changing, it means that maybe we are wasting our time and we have failed. We want things to be done right.
It was very disappointing to look at the information the garda gave to us about this. He has given a protected disclosure but we have not put it in to the public domain yet. His message to us was that not much has changed yet. I am an optimist by nature and I still believe that things will change, but sadly not enough has changed. Poor Maurice McCabe is, in some ways, lucky to be alive still and that he did not do away with himself when the pressure was so great on him at times. It would be very sad and disappointing for him if nothing changes. None of the people who came forward wanted changes more than Maurice McCabe in the way An Garda Síochána does its work. Do the representatives here today understand that if things are still not being done properly, it seriously undermines the current position? No?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No, we are obviously not privy to that detail. Perhaps the deputy Garda commissioner can comment on the general point of the possibility of continuing failed systems within An Garda Síochána.
Mr. John Twomey:
I can say that there is work being done in getting people to speak up to bring these issues forward, there are processes in place to support these people and there are many other cases where people have come forward and the issues have been taken on board and addressed. From where I am sitting I am aware of the work that is being done from the human resources, training, cultural and ethical perspectives to provide the opportunities for people to speak up. I am aware of where this has worked. Where it has not worked, we will continue to work with people to ensure that it does work. I am aware of real cases where it has worked and where people are saying that it has changed. They say that there is a different culture, that the code of ethics is beginning to kick in and that our behaviours are being driven and guided by our values. We will continue to do that. Where there are individual cases of people who do not agree with this we are happy to work with them to provide that support in whatever way we need to.
All along we have said that this will take time. Are we going to change people's views overnight? No we are not. We must be realistic and honest about that. We are, however, certain about our commitment to doing it. We will continue to work with everyone we need to work with. We cannot get into individual cases but I know that people have expressed positive feedback about the change over time. There are agencies working with us to support us and to help us achieve that objective. That work will continue. It will take time but we are committed to continuing that work.
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will conclude with a couple of questions for Mr. Nugent. When the Department of Justice and Equality officials were before the committee this week, I raised some questions with them. Mr. Nugent compiled a report on the use of a Gmail account by the former Garda Commissioner. Has Mr. Nugent given that report to the Department of Justice and Equality?
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Mr. Nugent not think he should know?
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Mr. Nugent did a report and he does not know if it went to the Department of Justice and Equality.
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Mr. Nugent understand that the amount of things that are "forgotten" or are responded to with "not sure" and "do not know" is frightening?
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If I were a foreman on a building site and someone asked me 12 months later what size steel I put in a beam over an entrance, I would remember the size of it. For the life of me it is mind-boggling how Mr. Nugent cannot remember if he gave that report to the Department of Justice and Equality.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Can that be established in order that we can have the certainty of what exactly took place?
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
My final question is to all the individuals across from me. Would any of them have received emails from the former Garda Commissioner's Gmail account?
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Would Mr. Nugent have received correspondence from the Gmail account of an official nature?
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That would be Garda business.
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
And the rest of the gentlemen?
Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for answering my questions.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for coming in to the committee. They come in to us very regularly. Before I start today I wish to raise one point. I appreciate that other colleagues and the deputy commissioner have already mentioned it but, especially on the day that is in it, I believe it is worth putting it on record.
Listening to news reports on what it really is like to serve in An Garda Síochána offers perspective and reminds us of the debt of gratitude that we owe the Garda, because there is no other profession where members go out to work daily to serve the community and put their lives at risk. This morning shows that there is a core of men and women to whom we owe an incredible debt and thanks each day, and that includes people at all levels of An Garda Síochána.
It is disappointing, as a member of the Committee on Justice and Equality, to listen to report after report and comment after comment on various things which have occurred. Everyone has alluded to there being almost a sense of fatigue about repeatedly asking questions,, so I do not intend to do that today. We have reached a point where, through inquiries and so on, I have a very good idea of what happened. Deputy Clare Daly has referred to this, but I want to note that the one thing I do not buy is the lack of supervision on how this happened. It annoys me when I hear that because it somehow implies that a lack of supervision at sergeant level or similar in stations was at the heart of this. There was a systemic failure of management in An Garda Síochána and it did untold damage because it created a culture at all ranks that made something which, when one steps back to look, is unacceptable, where people who signed up to do all the things I referred to, namely, serving the community and putting themselves at risk in so doing, were put in a situation where they were distorting the truth, falsifying information, and doing the type of things that they were employed to stop happening. That failure of management was one of the greatest disservices to the institution of An Garda Síochána.
There will be a new Commissioner and new structures are in place. I am pleased to hear about some of the work on ethics which is being put in place. There is now a Policing Authority which was not there. There is a process for investigation when dealing with whistleblowing. What happens now is how An Garda Síochána will really be judged. The deputy commissioner has made it very clear in his opening remarks that this is a change process. We must see, and very quickly, that it is real and meaningful. There cannot be incidents coming down the line in 14 or 18 months that give the information that what is happening now is not the truth in there being real attitudinal change and a real change in management. If that is not there it will be impossible for anyone to support it. If the type of ingrained change being discussed does happen, we will come out of this with a better police force.
The notion of going after rank-and-file gardaí through disciplinary proceedings would not only be abhorrent to me, but also completely wrong. To pursue the grassroots of an organisation when the real problem lay up the line would be one of the State's greatest wastes of money. I do not have a problem with just moving on. There are certain people in public life who are almost collecting a trophy wall out of the mess that has been created, mostly by An Garda Síochána's own hand, but it is as though they are collecting one trophy after the next. I do not subscribe to that and think it is crazy. One cannot decapitate everybody. There are many examples in the private sector where people did appalling things while running companies, failed in their obligations to pay what was right and proper to the State and so on. This is a forgiving country. People come back. If the restructuring, rebuilding and new management is there, then that is what we will judge.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Do the witnesses wish to respond? I do not think there was a specific question.
Colm Brophy (Dublin South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I would like the witnesses to come back on the particular matter of supervision, as well as the buy-in to how much real change is taking place.
Mr. John Twomey:
I will begin at the end. The buy-in is very real. We are of the firm belief that we need to achieve the right behaviours being guided by the right values. That is where we have moved into this restorative process. We absolutely accept the point that to commence a discipline process against some sections of the organisation and not others would be wrong, and that is why we have taken a more holistic, across the organisation approach from ethical and cultural perspectives. We have recently completed our cultural audit. As we sit here, these findings are being analysed. All the learnings from each of those programmes will come together to achieve the change to which the Deputy referred.
We are of one mind on the behaviours and culture that we want to develop in the organisation, but it is a large organisation that is here since 1922 and the culture and behaviours are ingrained in it since then, so it will take time. The firm commitment I can give here is that the people sitting at this side of the table are absolutely committed that this is the direction in which we are going and we will provide the leadership required for us to move the organisation in that direction. I do not know any member of An Garda Síochána who did not join to serve or who does not come into work every day to serve their community and do their best by it. We would not have the country we have that we can all be proud of were that not the case. That is a positive thing. It is absolutely the case that there are things we need to address, and we are giving a commitment about what we are going to do with that. I share the Deputy's view of the future and the direction in which we are going in that, and I thank the Deputy for his support.
On supervision, Crowe Horwath would say that there are a number of issues and areas, of which this is one. As I set out at the outset, there are a combination of reasons. Crowe Horwath says in its report, and the Policing Authority says in its commentary, that no supervision is needed for people to write in the correct records. We cannot get away from that. We cannot pick one factor and say that is the reason for everything and if we fix that, the problem will be resolved. Given the extent of the problem and the length of the period during which it was ongoing, and because of systems and myriad issues, some sections did not provide the governance there ought to have been, and that is a lesson we have learned. It is a combination of reasons. When I read the Crowe Horwath report, I did so in its entirety, and my summation is that there were a number of weaknesses right throughout the organisation from the top to the bottom, and we acknowledge that.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The next set of questions will be from Deputy Jack Chambers who will be followed by Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire, Senator Martin Conway, Deputy Alan Kelly, and Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the deputy commissioner and the rest of the management team who are here. It is important on days like today that we have perspective. We recognise someone who was shot in the line of duty and my thoughts are with him and his family. I recognise some of the excellent work that has been done in this city by units which have had successes against the gangsters and mobs. It is important to recognise the risks that they take daily in trying to tackle the issues on the front line.
I will start with the Crowe Horwath report. To get it clear in my own head, can the Garda representatives outline the procedure that is now in place around roadside breath testing? Who is the line manager? Who is responsible for ensuring the figures cannot be inflated in order that we do not repeat the mess we had and it is clear what the procedure is when a person is stopped and how the figures are submitted? Is there such a responsible person on PULSE? They may want to give a bit of detail on that.
Mr. Michael Finn:
I thank the Deputy for the opportunity to articulate that. The Crowe Horwath acknowledged the changes we have put in place since this whole episode started. We have learned a lot of lessons from it.
In relation to the whole process, if a checkpoint is set up nowadays, we record exactly the Dräger device that was used and the readings, at both start and finish. We have a supervisor nominated to oversee the checkpoint to go back and to check afterwards to make sure it was accurate. One of the difficulties we had in the past is that management simply did not have the tools, because of our lack of investment in IT, to be able to go back and verify what was done. We have improved that. We have reports available to management so that they can see exactly. If they want to check who was on the checkpoint last night and the number of cars that were checked against the devices - in the past, we did not have the capacity to do it - that capacity is there now. The structures to provide the capacity to oversee and manage, which we did not have, has been put in place. Crowe Horwath, in fairness, has acknowledged that in its report. It is not only about changing the tools, however, we have to change the behaviour. That is why the deputy commissioner was acknowledging the wider programme of change which is taking place within the organisation. Specifically, we have dealt with changing our processes.
Indeed, the Deputy mentioned supervision earlier. It was acknowledged in the Crowe Horwath report that there was a difficulty with supervision, particularly at the front line. We have started the process to beef up that. We have 250 new sergeants being appointed this year, plus 50 inspectors, who will be delivered to front-line supervision where we have been caught out most significantly in the past. Crowe Horwath referred to that.
The systems and process we have put in place are working and the tools we have given management will give them the capacity to make sure and carry out the checks which will ensure, that we will not get into the mess we were in the past.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Finn.
Mr. Michael Finn:
In addition, we have set up a new roads policing unit within the Garda Síochána and I now have responsibility for data on anything to do with roads policing. It is now centralised. We oversee it at a central level in roads policing so that, on a daily, weekly and monthly basis, we examine the data and make sure, if there are any inconsistencies, that we can ask the questions and have that level of probing supervision which, it was alluded to, we did not have in the past. That is there now to make sure that we can stand over what we are doing.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Previously, some of the issues drove the implicit expectation. The Policing Authority and Mr. O'Sullivan, in his own report, mentioned that there were levels of expectation that drove the inflation that we saw. How has the Garda addressed this, for example, with key performance indicators, KPIs, and data oversight? From speaking to many gardaí, I am aware they feel there is an obsession with data. It is not only a Garda issue. It is a bureaucratic and organisational problem throughout both the public service and the private sector where everything is about the percentage and relative changes. Perhaps there is a loss of focus on policing providing visibility and community oversight and that is the cultural change. How can one provide a cultural change in order that at a management level, it is not all data-obsessed KPIs that loses the focus around why people become gardaí and what the Garda does on a daily basis?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
It is a really important point. In fact, it was discussed at our last meeting of the Policing Authority. I would make a couple of points. At a structural level, we are appointing a chief data officer - the recruitment competition for that is under way - to deal with some of the issues to which the Deputy referred, to recognise the importance of data within the organisation and to ensure that we have the practices throughout, from the Phoenix Park right down to every Garda station in the country, to understand the importance of that.
In that regard, we need to recognise what our data are. They are not only about numbers, statistics and percentages. All of our pieces relate to interactions with individuals. That is probably where we need to start. When we get people to think that the statistical return is not about the return, it is about what is behind that information. That is the cultural difference that we are striving to achieve. If people can look at it in that way, it changes the dynamics where suddenly one realises that one's interaction with an individual, whether it is a breath test or whether it is some other matter that one is addressing and dealing with, is the important part and that the data are almost a follow-on from that. It is my belief it will change the way in which we are dealing with the issue.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Would all the witnesses recognise that the policing plans that were previously drafted were data obsessed, forgetting about the stories or the good work behind whatever that interaction was? Are new KPIs being developed to reflect the procedure that should go beyond the data fields?
Mr. John Twomey:
Deputy Jack Chambers makes an important point about acknowledging the good work that people do on a daily basis. One of the key changes that is coming in is that members of An Garda Síochána will do what members of An Garda Síochána are recruited to do, which is police the streets, work with the communities and provide that quality of life that people need, and that there will be support staff then to gather the data. The data are important. If we want to make decisions based on data, the data that go in must be important. Otherwise, we have the garbage in, garbage out type scenario and that is not what we want.
On the Deputy's key point as to whether we are focusing on acknowledging our Garda personnel and the work they do on the streets with the communities, the simple answer to that question is "Yes". That is the direction in which we want to go, putting members of An Garda Síochána in uniform back out on the streets doing the simple basic functions of a member of An Garda Síochána, which is providing a quality of life with the local communities. That is one key shift that we have acknowledged. The point the Deputy makes on the policing plans is certainly something we would acknowledge.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is a positive change.
I agree with Deputy Brophy that it would be a waste of time and resources to spend hundreds of thousands or millions of euro trying to prosecute and nail the grass roots gardaí. That would not achieve some of the reforms of which the witnesses spoke previously.
A point I would raise is that recently we saw a fine of €3,000 for superintendents who cancelled incorrectly multiple fixed charge notices. They are obviously dealt with. I do not want to get into individual cases in terms of the internal procedures, but are the internal disciplinary regulations fit for purpose so that we disincentivise people from doing what are illegal and wrongful acts in the context of their management positions? They are probably unlikely to repeat that. If they did, however, is the Garda looking at changing the disciplinary regulations for them? I found that disciplinary sanction completely useless in the context of the act that the person did. I do not know whether the witnesses wish to comment on the internal disciplinary regulations.
Mr. John Twomey:
Mr. Justice Charleton spoke about the disciplinary regulations in his most recent report. He stated that there is a need for it to be reviewed and for it to be brought up to modern-day standards. That certainly is a view we share. That is certainly something on which there have been discussions over time to the effect that it needs to be done. The disciplinary regulations play an important part in a command-and-control type organisation such as An Garda Síochána. Equally, if not more importantly, so does learning and development, and that is one of the key points we want to acknowledge. Coming back to the Deputy's original question of whether we are we looking at the disciplinary regulations, "yes" is the simple answer.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is good.
I wish to talk about the relationship between An Garda Síochána and the Department of Justice and Equality. We know from the Toland report that operational independence for An Garda Síochána is extremely important in order that it can exercise its public duty. I want to specifically focus on the recent issues we have seen around the setting of the criteria for the reopening of Garda stations. I want to specifically ask the question as to whether the witnesses believe the setting of criteria by a Minister or by the Department is an intrusion on his operational independence? I am not asking whether they were set, how they were set or who told the Garda they were set. I want to ask their opinion. Is it an intrusion on their operational independence as experienced members of An Garda Síochána?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I know that.
Mr. John O'Driscoll:
-----would be reopened. It is important, though, to consider section 22 of the Garda Síochána Act which sets out a circumstance in which the Garda Síochána considers that, among other things, there is a requirement to change boundaries or open or close stations. This matter had to be put before the Government within a policing plan. The Garda Síochána Act was amended subsequently when the Policing Authority was established to the effect that we are now required to put any plans we have regarding the realignment of districts, divisions or boundaries or the opening of stations into our policing plan, which must now be approved by the Policing Authority rather than the Minister, as was the case prior to the-----
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That does not address the question whether Mr. O'Driscoll thinks this is correct. We heard comments from Assistant Commissioner Leahy, for example, in this regard, and I think Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll referred in his statement to the criteria that were set for the Garda. However, Mr. O'Driscoll is couching his language in cautious terms in respect of the criteria that were imposed on the organisation rather than criteria the Garda should itself set. Are the Garda's criteria aligned with those which the Department has provided for the Garda?
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I know that.
Mr. John O'Driscoll:
-----being that which has been given to the Policing Authority and for which it is to use the services of the Garda Inspectorate. There will be a total review of Garda boundaries, which will constitute the most significant piece of work in this regard since the foundation of the State and the establishment of those boundaries. The way in which the criteria are worded and the task given to the Policing Authority are such that it is to be informed by the reopening of a mere six stations. We are aware that others in the debate on rural crime recently suggested that it would perhaps be appropriate that all Garda stations that were closed would now be reopened. We must take into account that the closing of these stations took place at a time of austerity. It was the 2011 Government's decision to embark on a detailed, comprehensive review of expenditure that gave rise to An Garda Síochána closing stations at a time when we did not foresee that we would potentially have the recruitment campaigns that have now been reintroduced.
Assistant Commissioner Pat Leahy, when he appeared before an Oireachtas committee recently, was talking about current priorities in putting resources into particular locations. There will be potentially 800 extra gardaí on the beat before any of these stations are reopened. Even tomorrow, I think, an additional 211 gardaí will come out of training in Templemore, approximately 88 of whom, I think, will go to the Dublin metropolitan region. It is quite possible that Pat Leahy's priorities that he spoke about can be met starting from tomorrow, and all his other priorities may be well met before any new station is opened or any closed station reopened in the Dublin metropolitan region. There will be 800 extra personnel and 500 additional civilians in 2018. We now have all these additional resources and, where stations were closed because of a scarcity of resources and with no potential insight at that time-----
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There are areas of significant population growth. Does Mr. O'Driscoll agree that this pilot scheme did not incorporate new populations, that is, populations that have grown as a result of urban sprawl to the extent that existing Garda stations cannot provide the level of policing that might be required? Does he agree that the criteria set by Government did not reflect the population change we see and that if senior management had a role in the criteria, it might have had a more informed view of the stations that would be opened or reopened across the country?
Mr. John O'Driscoll:
We were given leeway in this regard. I say quite clearly in the second interim report and indeed in the final report that I believe it is not wise to rely on crime statistics and I put significant emphasis on population increase. For example, one part of the Stepaside district has witnessed the third highest population increase in the country. In the period 2006 to 2011, I think there was a population increase of 38%. Regarding our recommending the reopening of Rush Garda station, it is adjacent to Skerries. I think Skerries and Longford are the two towns that have been newly designated major towns as a result of having populations of more than 10,000. We have therefore put great emphasis in the recommendations we have made on population and have given it much greater significance than crime statistics, which can change for a variety of reasons which are not based or dependent on whether there is a Garda station at a particular location.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is fine. I will just reiterate what I said the previous time Mr. O'Driscoll came before the committee. I think the Garda has been thrown under a bus by the Department and the Government. The witnesses are here in defence. The Department and the Government drew the dots and forced the Garda to join them. It should be for the Garda to exercise its operational independence to decide which stations it feels should be reopened and the criteria that should be set. It is important in the context of the Toland report and other proposed reforms that the Garda would have less of an aggregated relationship with the Department and that it would exercise its operational independence. It would be refreshing to hear Mr. O'Driscoll state his regret at the criteria being imposed on the Garda rather than trying to defend something that I think breaches the Garda's operational independence. That is unfortunate, but it is to be hoped we will see changes afoot whereby criteria will not be imposed. Will Mr. O'Driscoll give other examples of the Government setting the criteria? Did the Minister for Justice and Equality tell the Garda to establish a particular unit? I assume that was a decision of senior management. It decided based on its own experience to establish particular units.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We need to separate politics from policing and not-----
Mr. John O'Driscoll:
Another example of Government policy is in the area of white-collar crime. There is a paper on this which could lead to the establishment or enhancement of existing units or the creation of new units in An Garda Síochána. This is another example of an area on which a particular Government has placed a particular emphasis. A previous Government created the Criminal Assets Bureau. There are many examples of where the priority of Government in respect of law enforcement has been clearly stated and, as a consequence, there have been changes in the shape, design and allocation of Garda resources.
Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will finish after this question, which concerns the internal memo that was leaked from Assistant Commissioner Leahy. I am just confused. The Select Committee on Justice and Equality discussed this last week with the Minister for Justice and Equality. It sent out the wrong message at the wrong time. Suddenly there was a fear among communities across Dublin that have benefited from overtime and the increased presence on our streets that this would be lost. How was that memo authorised when, surely, senior management would have been aware of the Minister authorising additional overtime and there would have been communications between the Department and An Garda Síochána in this regard? Do the witnesses agree that there needs to be a more careful approach to internal memos when they have the wrong message, when overtime is about to be authorised?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
Clearly, with hindsight, there should have been greater clarity in the memo that issued. I wish to be upfront that that is not a criticism of Assistant Commissioner Leahy.
The issue related to us coming to the end of our budgetary year. In essence, the expenditure that would be incurred by the end of November is where the pressures would have arisen around the 2017 spend, and that is just a technical issue around when claims are lodged or not lodged. We would accept that the way in which this was reported gave an impression that was not, in fact, the case. We have to reflect on that and understand how we can avoid such occurrences in the future.
Mr. John Twomey:
It is important to add to Mr. Nugent's point about the way it was reported that, in fairness, all of the serious operations that are necessary to keep the people of Dublin safe were continued. For example, Operation Hybrid, which is our specific operation to target serious and organised crime, and any of the security issues in regard to immigration at Dublin Port, were continued. All of the operations continued; it was just that there was a focus on some of them for that couple of days from an accounting process perspective more than anything else. The issue is the reporting rather than any reduction in policing, or anything like that. The key message that I would like to be clear on is that there was no reduction in policing in terms of additional resources being provided for any of the more serious operations, such as Operation Hybrid, Operation Thor and other operations.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the members of An Garda Síochána for their attendance. I share the sentiment of other members in extending my best wishes to the garda who was injured and I echo the articulate comments of Deputy Brophy on the risks taken by members of the Garda in their service to the public. I commend the Garda on the considerable successes that have been achieved against organised crime in recent weeks and months, although some of the recent murders illustrate the scale of the challenge.
I have a number of questions across a number of areas. I want to support the disappointment and frustration of Deputies Clare Daly and Wallace in regard to the point on whether the figures on checkpoints were inflated or were recorded as having taken place when they had not taken place. These committee meetings are not an exact science but certain inferences are drawn. When a representative of An Garda Síochána tells us that there is no evidence of that happening, we take it that the position of An Garda Síochána is that it did not happen. That is civil servant-speak or official-speak for "We believe 99% that this did not happen". It would have been open to the witnesses to state it was plausible or was a matter they were considering or looking into but that is not what was said. What was simply said was there is no evidence of it. That is then clearly contradicted by what is in the Crowe Horwath report. It may have been the case that there was no evidence but in the context of a new start for policing, full transparency and honesty, and all the rest, I think it would have been open to them to state it was a live possibility or was something they were considering or looking into. It gives a misleading impression if we are simply told there is no evidence of it and that is it, full stop.
Following on from Dr. Geoffrey Shannon's report, which contained considerable criticisms, I have a number of questions and I ask the witnesses to answer them as briefly and as much to the point as possible. There were a number of specific points about the manner in which data were recorded and the ongoing engagement with Tusla in regard to cases under the Child Care Act. Is it possible to get an update on the improvement of the data systems and the engagement with Tusla?
Mr. John Twomey:
I will ask Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll to speak about Tusla. With regard to the Deputy's other point, I reiterate that the issue of the breath tests was something we brought into the public domain originally and it is similar with regard to the summonses. Everyone is asking about transparency. When this came to our attention originally, we brought the issue into the public domain. Following that, in regard to the fixed charge notices, it was Assistant Commissioner Finn himself who held a press conference to give greater detail on it. We certainly take on board the points the Deputy is making but one thing we should recall is that, at the outset of all of this, it was An Garda Síochána which brought these issues into the public domain in the first instance.
Mr. John O'Driscoll:
In regard to the child care area, the remaining provisions of the Child Care (Amendment) Act 2015 will commence on 11 December. In preparation for that, in recent days a whole set of documents has been released for the information of every member of the Garda Síochána. These include the Children First national guidance for the protection and welfare of children of 2017, a joint working protocol for An Garda Síochána and Tusla, which was signed recently by myself and a senior member of Tusla, a new notification form for An Garda Síochána to the Child and Family Agency, a guide for the reporting of child protection and welfare concerns and a copy of Tusla best practice principles for organisations in developing Children First training programmes. In addition, at the last meeting of this committee that I attended, we spoke about an information leaflet which would be circulated to all members of the Garda Síochána. We have provided considerable extra information over and above what was initially planned and I have a draft of that which is now signed off and ready for circulation throughout the An Garda Síochána.
It is important to point out that, in his report, Professor Shannon commented positively on the fact we had made open to him in excess of 500,000 PULSE records and that it was only in a small number of cases that issues arose in respect of the manner in which the information was recorded in regard to particular cases where a section 12 removal was implemented. There is a high-level strategic committee I jointly chair with a senior member of personnel in Tusla. All of those issues and all of the recommendations arising from the Shannon report are being implemented and monitored at that level in both organisations.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the assistant commissioner. There are a lot of positives in that. My next point is in regard to the fixed charge notices. I raised the point that a number of cases had been reported in the media involving consequences beyond the fine or the notice, such as implications for jobs and there are reports of somebody being arrested, if not imprisoned, and all the rest. On the previous occasion, Assistant Commissioner Finn outlined there are 119 solicitor's letters. Has that escalated and are there now more cases? Are there cases which have proceeded to the courts at this point?
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am not necessarily speaking about the overall picture but the specific cases where the Garda had received letters where solicitors felt that, beyond the cancellation of the fine, their clients had been adversely affected in terms of employment, insurance and so on.
Mr. Michael Finn:
I can say there has been no significant increase in the number of people who have come to us since those cases. Where they have engaged with us, they are dealing with our legal section. If compensation cases are being pursued, they will be with the State Claims Agency. With regard to any of the solicitors who have engaged with us in regard to such cases, we are in the process of appealing those cases. Cases are listed all through this December and in January and February of next year. In fact, almost 2,000 cases are scheduled for appeal between now and the end of January.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In regard to the Crowe Horwath report on the checkpoints and mandatory alcohol testing and the inflation of numbers in that regard, when the Policing Authority appeared before us a week after the appearance before us of Assistant Commissioner Finn, the point was made that it was Ms Feehily's belief that all the evidence pointed to the fact it was easier for gardaí to provide false information than to provide accurate information.
The Crowe Horwath report clearly underlines the fact that there was, at the very least, implicit pressure. The Garda Representative Association, GRA, had raised previously the issue of active duress but the Crowe Horwath report clearly outlines that there was implicit pressure on gardaí to inflate the figures. Does Mr. Finn accept the Crowe Horwath report in full, and does he accept that contention?
Mr. Michael Finn:
I would not say that there was implicit pressure on them to inflate figures. It is acknowledged that there was pressure to do checkpoints. If the Deputy talks to the Road Safety Authority or any agency dealing with road safety, they will acknowledge that there is definitely a correlation between enforcement and compliance. If the gardaí are out on the roads doing checkpoints that is, without doubt, a factor that contributes to a reduction in the number of collisions.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
To return to the specific quote from Ms Josephine Feehily, does Mr. Finn accept that it was the case that it was easier for gardaí, perhaps in certain districts, to provide false information than accurate information?
Mr. Michael Finn:
That was one of the weaknesses in our systems in the past where we did not record the device number, the readings. We have changed that. We have given management the tools so that they can measure whether the checkpoint was carried out, whether the devices were used and if the readings are consistent. Crowe Horwath has acknowledged that those systems we have put in place are more effective and they are addressing the issue in that regard.
Mr. Michael O'Sullivan:
The report states:
[I]t is clear that there is no single causative factor that led to the over-reporting of more than 1.4m breath tests. In our view, there are multiple causative factors which are interrelated, including technology, operational process, training, oversight, supervision, culture.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I would like a "Yes" or "No" answer. Does the Garda accept the contention of Ms Josephine Feehily that it may have been the case that it was easier to record inaccurate information than accurate information?
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am going to accept that as a "Yes".
Mr. Michael O'Sullivan:
It goes back to the point I made at the outset. It will take an in-depth analysis of 502,600 incidents to establish that fact. We can summarise because of different figures in various parts of the country. That may have been a factor, but to establish the exact extent of it-----
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is a prohibitive project, as we have already heard.
Mr. John Twomey:
What is of particular importance is that the issue the Deputy is raising is not possible. The structures, governance processes, policies and systems are in place to ensure that the data that goes in is accurate. We have accepted that a myriad of issues led to this problem but one of the areas we have addressed is to ensure that the structures and processes are in place now to ensure that that cannot happen. Assistant Commissioner Finn has clear oversight of that role now.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will accept that as a "Yes". It was the case that it was easier to record inaccurate information than accurate information, unless somebody wants to contradict me.
On the issue of mandatory alcohol tests, it was discussed in our engagement on 4 October, and it certainly was the indication from the Policing Authority, that 70,000 cases were being evaluated and that the Garda was being asked to examine, on the basis of prima facieevidence, the disciplinary actions that would be taken. I disagree with Deputy Brophy on the issue of discipline. I do not believe every case is the same. That discipline is proportionate is at the heart of this in that there will be more marginal infractions but also more serious cases and cases where either gardaí were involved in an inordinate number of inflations or in terms of those responsible for same. From my understanding of the Policing Authority meeting, the latest position is that no garda, senior or otherwise, will be disciplined as a result of this and that the inspection of those 70,000 cases has not resulted in any fruit. Is that accurate?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes.
Mr. John Twomey:
I will refer to what acting Commissioner Ó Cualáin said in his opening address in acknowledging the issue of discipline, accepting that it was a difficult decision to make, that it would not address everybody's concerns and that there would be people who would agree or disagree with it. The view of the organisation was that we needed to get in behind individual elements of discipline if we want to address this issue across the entire organisation in a holistic way, as I said at the outset. On that day, the acting Commissioner said there was no prima facieevidence relating to criminality but that there was evidence of individual breaches of discipline. Looking at the scale and extent of that, the decision was made that the best way forward was to deal with this in terms of a restorative process, the systems and many other ways. The organisation has set out the decision it has taken while accepting the point that that may not be the case. What we would say is that everybody in the organisation is being dealt with under the process we are talking about. There are other ways of dealing with discipline rather than through the bog standard discipline process. That is what we are talking about. An organisation needs to learn from these issues, change its behaviour and develop. That is the crucial issue in all this, so to say that the organisation is getting away with this scot free is not accurate or a fair representation of what we have set out in our proposals and recommendations.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That extends to those who were in charge of the 28 divisions. There will be no action taken. Regardless of the significance of the inflation within those divisions, a line will be drawn under that.
Mr. John Twomey:
The acting Commissioner set out that he has written to all the senior officers. He is meeting all of them personally to discuss the issues highlighted in the report. All senior officers have been trained through the Harvard Kennedy School and all of them have undergone training in the code of ethics. A good deal of action and many initiatives have been undertaken in that context so to say that nothing has happened is not accurate.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am not saying that nothing is happening but I do not know if the Garda position that it has noted this, it was not good enough and it will move on and improve its processes is acceptable. There has to be consequences and accountability for people who were guilty of significant wrongdoing. I accept there is proportion in that regard but I do not know if that is acceptable.
I appreciate the deputy commissioner cannot go into the detail of anything that is happening at the tribunal but is it his understanding that it is an offence to deliberately withhold or fail to disclose relevant documentation to a tribunal of inquiry?
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If An Garda Síochána were to receive a complaint about a possible criminal failure to disclose such documentation, would it investigate that?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is what the deputy commissioner feels comfortable in answering.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Finally, I refer to the issue of the cancellation of penalty points.
Is it the case that the name of the person responsible for the inputting of that information is recorded on the IT systems?
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is the name of the person who is responsible for the cancellation of the penalty points recorded?
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is the name of the person who was to receive the penalty points recorded?
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
However, the GSOC investigation stated it will not be pursuing criminal or disciplinary proceedings. I understand that is also the position of An Garda Síochána. Is that correct?
Mr. John Twomey:
Again, I do not want to go into individual cases but when this original investigation commenced, disciplinary action was taken. Subsequent to receiving the report from GSOC, we are examining that to see the detail around what it stated. Action was taken in the original instance following an earlier report. We have to consider the report which we have only received in the past couple of days. I cannot definitely answer the question.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
So Mr. Twomey would not rule out the possibility of criminal or disciplinary proceedings.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Deputy Ó Laoghaire, I cannot help you there.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
As far as I can establish, the Garda has not ruled out the possibility. I just want to put on the record that where there is a clear paper trial, with the name of the person who recorded it and the motorist, where there are widespread examples of wrongdoing, and where a single member of the Garda cancelled 744 notices across 17 counties, then criminal and disciplinary proceedings have to be taken, whatever about the mandatory alcohol-testing issue. This is not just about the Garda. It is about those who potentially benefited from it, whether through their relationship with a garda or their prominent position in the community. I take on board the fact Garda management has not ruled it out, as far as I can establish. I urge that it would be pursued.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Deputy Ó Laoghaire. The Deputy's particular focus on this issue highlights what was stated earlier in that some things may not have changed. It is important for Garda management to take that on board.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
However, the Garda would not have had all of the salient information at that time.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is it fair to say all of these matters are still under active consideration?
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That was a fair question. Is it still under active consideration?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I would concur with the Deputy if he thought that was "Yes".
I call Senator Conway.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I, too, would like to be associated with the comments of wishing the member of An Garda Síochána who was shot this morning all the best.
I listened carefully to the submissions and questioning this morning. Has the Garda identified areas where inflated figures for mandatory breath-testing were significant, as well as the individuals involved? It is not realistic to discipline everyone involved. However, has a risk assessment been done of those at the upper end in terms of culpability in this area?
Mr. Michael O'Sullivan:
The divisional and regional variations are given in the Crowe Horwath report. I gave them as well. To go into that level of detail, as Crowe Horwath and I have already outlined, would require a 21 to 28 year process of listening to 502,000 plus telephone calls. Crowe Horwath stated in its report that the focus should now be on correcting the problems across all dimensions, rather than conducting continuing lengthy examinations into the scale of the past.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In fairness, that is Crowe Horwath's view but Senator Conway has a different focus.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
My concern is that if there are individuals capable of faking breath tests, checkpoints and results, who is to say they are not capable of going into court and faking evidence? Is there a possibility that there are people in prison today as a result of fake evidence in court?
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Mr. O'Sullivan is missing the point.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No, he cannot because he is missing the point and he is not addressing the question.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Maybe the Senator might like to address the question to another member of the panel. However, will he allow Mr. O'Sullivan to finish his response?
Mr. Michael O'Sullivan:
There was no prima facieevidence of criminal activity. I have been in and out of courts for 36 years. I have been in the Special Criminal Court half a dozen times this year regarding cases of domestic terrorism. I am also in court regularly regarding the operation of the State's witness security programme. I am the one person in this room who is most frequently before the courts. I found absolutely no evidence of what the Senator is suggesting at any time. Neither have I heard adverse comment from a judge, defence or prosecution counsels in this regard. I can only give my experience as the person in this room most regularly in the courts.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I must bring to Senator Conway's attention that a division has been called in the Seanad.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It would be a great way to get rid of me.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No, I assure the Senator that I do not want to get rid of him at all.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will pair with Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee.
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I think we are on the same side for this vote.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There is an interesting revelation. Would the Senator like to proceed?
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, I would. The point I am making is that if an individual is capable of knowingly giving inaccurate information about checkpoints or faking breath tests, is it beyond the realms of possibility that the same lack of clarity and so forth could be associated with evidence in court?
Mr. John Twomey:
I would like to be very clear in the answers we are giving here. There is certainly no evidence to suggest anywhere that this has happened. There is a whole trail of evidence with examination and cross-examination. There is a whole process in terms of the criminal courts to ensure the evidence provided proves beyond a reasonable doubt the person is or is not guilty. In a criminal court, with the level of scrutiny, oversight and governance, from our perspective in terms of the investigation and the people conducting and in charge of those, there is no evidence that anything like the Senator suggested occurred. Taking it out of the criminal environment is different. We need to be clear that there is certainly nothing like the Senator suggested.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I do not think Senator Martin Conway is suggesting in his questioning that it has been the case, but he is underlining his view and a significant swathe of public opinion and concern about the fact that all of this has happened. Its extent has been shocking. People with the confidence of a lifetime in An Garda Síochána have been left reeling and are questioning that confidence. We need to get to a position where full confidence will be restored. The Senator is progressing his questioning in that regard.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will conclude this line of questioning by pointing out to the deputy commissioner that there was adverse comment recently in the Special Criminal Court about the evidence given under oath by a sergeant that resulted in an acquittal. Mr. Twomey needs to take another look at this issue and reflect carefully on how he should proceed. It is easy to turn around and say if it is to be done, gardaí will have to listen to half 500,000 conversations. On a fair analysis of what I am saying anyone would acknowledge that that is not the point. The point is that the Garda makes a risk assessment and identifies areas of particular concern. It then has to look at the overall profile of individuals involved in the traffic corps and what they have done in court. That is not an unreasonable proposition for me to make. I will leave it at that because I am conscious that we are coming close to the end of the meeting and that there are other contributors.
I go back to the Stepaside Garda station debacle. I listened carefully to what the assistant commissioner in Dublin, Mr. Pat Leahy, had to say. I would like each member of the senior management team to tell me if they agree or disagree with his proposition.
Mr. John O'Driscoll:
It is important to highlight that Assistant Commissioner Leahy recommended the reopening of Stepaside and Rush Garda stations. Separately he also expressed a view on what his priorities were in the context of where he would like resources to be allocated. Tomorrow he will be given the details of 88 additional members of An Garda Síochána in the Dublin region who will try-----
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
With respect, I heard that answer being given earlier to one of my colleagues. I accept its bona fides, but we are talking about what is happening in the here and now. The people who are following this debate also listened to what Assistant Commissioner Leahy had to say. He was clear and unambiguous in his commentary at the Committee of Public Accounts. The answer for which I am looking is either agreement or disagreement with his proposition.
Mr. John Twomey:
On the day Assistant Commissioner Leahy said he had provided a recommendation for Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll in the report he had been asked to produce. In it he recommended that two Garda stations in Dublin be reopened, at Rush and Stepaside. He went on to qualify that recommendation with the other demands that he himself faced. To say he said one or the other-----
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We could pull up the transcript, if necessary.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I was there.
Mr. John Twomey:
The fact of the matter is that in the report submitted to Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll he recommended that both Garda stations be reopened. He qualified that recommendation by indicating what his priorities were. Clarification was then provided that in the intervening period of 12 months additional resources would be provided in the Dublin metropolitan region to enable both issued to be addressed.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I got the clear impression-----
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Will the Senator, please, let the deputy commissioner finish?
Mr. John Twomey:
One other point that should be remembered is that when Stepaside Garda station was closed, the personnel stationed in it transferred to Dundrum Garda station and they are still there. Stepaside is still being policed, albeit from a different location. These are the key issues that feed into the answer.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I got the clear impression - I will consult Deputy Alan Kelly because it was his line of questioning that elicited the response - that for the foreseeable future Assistant Commissioner Leahy did not anticipate, if he were given additional resources and 800 or 208 new gardaí, sending some of them to Stepaside. He anticipated that he would be sending them to Tallaght, Ballymun and other areas in which there was probably a higher crime rate.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There was not.
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
I do not agree with the Deputy. There was confusion about the reopening of Garda stations and extended opening hours. I accept that we are in a space where the interim report has only been published. In the context of the reopening programme, Assistant Commissioner Leahy recommended that Stepaside Garda station be reopened. He said this at the committee. He also commented on broader issues, including how he would deploy additional resources if he had them available. He said he would not deploy them to Stepaside.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Mr. Nugent agree with him?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
The question does not arise because Stepaside Garda station is not open and it will not be possible to open it within the next day or so. As Assistant Commissioner O'Driscoll said, 88 additional gardaí will be assigned to the Dublin metropolitan region tomorrow. Further gardaí will be assigned during the course of 2018. While we have a sense of what resources will be available, the position may change, as Assistant Commissioner Leahy made clear.
Martin Conway (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We might have Assistant Commissioner Leahy here at some stage to develop this discussion. The discussion on the deployment of resources is interesting. I am not trying to pick a fight; I am completely on the side of the Garda when it comes to improvements. I very much welcome the change in management that has taken place in recent times but there is a need for much more. I look forward to seeing the report of the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland. As I have exhausted the subject, I will defer to Deputy Kelly.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Chairman will invite him to contribute. On that note, I welcome him back.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will have to rejoin the committee. I will be back again in the new year to do something totally different.
I offer my best wishes to the garda who was injured in doing his duty. It shows the dangerous work many gardaí do.
I had no intention of going near the issue of the reopening of Stepaside Garda station, but my knowledge - I am the only member of the Committee of Public Accounts present - is at complete odds with that of Mr. Nugent.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I agree that Mr. Nugent is totally entitled to his opinion, but let us produce the transcript which will prove what was said. The reality is that the criteria were set in such a way that Assistant Commissioner Pat Leahy had no choice but to recommend what he did. However, he made it very clear that it was not a priority for him. It was also made clear that the head of human resources, incredibly, had never been consulted on the reopening of Stepaside Garda station. That is all on the record.
I want to ask a few questions about breath tests and overtime. I will return to Mr. Nugent. I had no intention of going anywhere near this issue, but I was thrown by his remark that he had not been asked to produce a report on the previous Commissioner's Gmail account. I even used my phone to look up reports from the time because I thought I was losing my memory. I took down what the Minister of the day, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, had said, that she was awaiting a report being produced by An Garda Síochána. We know that all reports come through Mr. Nugent. This has been reported in full everywhere, included at the meeting of the Policing Authority in late November or early December - I cannot remember the date - in 2016.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Fine, but what did you do?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
To clarify, for both Deputy Alan Kelly and Mr. Nugent, it is not a direct conversation. Questions and responses should be directed through the Chair. We will maintain decorum.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Either a report was done or it was not done. If not, what was done? Why is the Minister saying that a report is coming? Did the witnesses give a report, if one was done, or send an email to the Department or to the Policing Authority on this matter? Has all of that been referred to the Charlton tribunal?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
A number of issues are at play. I must admit that I was not expecting the question and hence, my inability to recall exactly what occurred at that time. If I do not answer all of Deputy Kelly's questions, I ask him to revert to me. I examined the assistant commissioner's personal email account to establish whether there were any serious work-related issues, other than what was discussed earlier, and found nothing. I reported verbally on that piece of work. This matter was discussed at a meeting of the Policing Authority, probably in private session. At that meeting we were also asked to report on revised practices on the use of personal and official email accounts within the organisation. That piece of work, I suspect, not having seen what the Minister said-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I just read it out.
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
My point is that we were certainly agreed that we would provide a report to the Department on the policies around the use of official and personal email services. A reminder was issued on that to all staff within the organisation and a revised policy has, by and large, been completed. It is just about to be signed off. There were two issues, in my opinion, that were being discussed at the same time. As I said, without seeing exactly what the question to and answer from the Minister was, I am-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We have established now that Mr. Nugent checked the former Commissioner's email account.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We have also established that he went through it and there was nothing to be seen there.
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
Just to be clear, when I said there was nothing to be seen, I saw no evidence of official emails of a sensitive nature. I saw the type of email that I would have received from Commissioner O'Sullivan, of the "here is an interesting article" type. It was that sort of material. I did not see sensitive material in the personal email account.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I fail to understand why Mr. Nugent did not put this officially in a report to the Policing Authority.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Do the serving members here have Gmail accounts? Have they ever received Gmail correspondence or any form of correspondence from the previous Commissioner to those accounts or from her account? There are two questions there.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Maybe Deputy Kelly was not here at the time. I am sorry about that but perhaps the witnesses would clarify that for the Deputy. My understanding was that-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There are two questions.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, but in terms of the first question the response, as I recall, was in the negative in each case.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is it a negative for everybody on both questions? Did the serving members receive emails from the former Commissioner's Gmail account or send emails to her Gmail account?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is my understanding of the response.
Mr. John Twomey:
I think Mr. Nugent said earlier on that he has received some unofficial emails. The issue was whether the emails were of an official or unofficial nature. Mr. Nugent said that he had received some articles with a suggestion that he have a look at them. I would have received some of them also. As to whether I received anything of an official nature, the answer is "No".
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Do all of the witnesses have non-Garda email accounts through which they receive non-sensitive Garda correspondence?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is very simple question.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, but it is a fairly simple question to answer. It is a "Yes" or "No" question. I am not accusing anybody of anything. I am just asking a question.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Of course, I understand that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Mr. Twomey receive Garda correspondence through that account?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is all I was asking. What I am asking, and unless I hear someone say "No", I will take it that the deputy commissioner is answering for everyone, is whether the witnesses receive Garda information of a non-sensitive nature through their private email accounts.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I feel that the report needs to be put on the record. That is something to which the witnesses may want to return. It is certainly worthy of consideration.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Would Mr. Nugent like to come back on that?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Can that be furnished to the clerk to the committee?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
He might furnish his report to the Policing Authority and, if necessary, to the Charlton tribunal too.
On the issue of the breath tests and the fixed penalty notices, has anyone been disciplined? Has anyone been disciplined because of these two issues? I do not want names or anything like that.
Mr. John Twomey:
Not following the Crowe Howarth report or Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan's report. Again, going back to the earlier answer, the acting Commissioner addressed this at the meeting of the Policing Authority. He set out the rationale as to how he came to the decision. He said what was happening in its place but in response to the question as to whether anyone has been disciplined on foot of either report, the answer is "No".
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There were reports that a superintendent and two inspectors from the middle of Ireland have been disciplined in relation to fixed fines. Is that true?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I said both. I said breath tests and fixed fines.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Either, or.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Either report.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is Deputy Kelly speaking of the Crowe Howarth report or Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan's report?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Assistant Commissioner O'Sullivan's report first and then the Crowe Howarth report.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
None in respect of either report?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that in relation to both breath tests and fixed charge notices?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is why I asked this question.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Just to clarify, under which report were people disciplined?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I do not want to get into individual cases either because I know where they are - hence the question. Under the O'Mahony report, these individuals were disciplined. We have now had two more reports subsequently but no one has been disciplined on foot of them.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Please let Deputy Kelly finish. I will allow Mr. O'Sullivan to speak in a minute.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I would appreciate it if I was not interrupted by Mr. O'Sullivan. There were two more reports. When the O'Mahony report was done, three individuals were reprimanded or disciplined, as I understand it. That was good enough to do then. Then we had two further reports but nobody was disciplined.
Is there not something glaringly wrong in that scenario? Is there not a contradiction in the Garda Síochána having adopted a particular stance in respect of senior officers, a superintendent and two inspectors, and it not adopting the same stance when the cat was out of the bag in relation to this issue?
Mr. John Twomey:
The extent of the evidence and facts surrounding the breath testing and summons issue was of such nature and complexity that a decision was taken that the best and most appropriate way to deal with the issue was as I have set out on numerous occasions here this morning. This decision was based on an examination of the evidence. It is also supported by Crowe Horwath's finding that how we deal with this issue must be forward-looking. The report references similar reports where a similar approach has been taken. Every case is different. Every case is examined on its merits and a decision is taken on those merits. In this case, we cannot compare like with like. The scale and complexity of this issue needs to borne in mind.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will move on.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I remind Deputy Kelly that we must vacate this room by 1 p.m. and there is another member still to participate.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. I understand what the deputy commissioner said but I do not accept it. I have made my point and people are well aware of the contradiction in relation to the actions of An Garda Síochána based on three different reports.
The Garda Síochána receives funding from the Road Safety Authority, RSA, and the National Transport Authority, NTA, for enforcement operations etc.. Down through the years, both agencies have engaged in various campaigns in which the Garda Síochána has participated. Does the Garda Síochána owe those agencies money in relation to those campaigns? All of the statistics to justify the spending of X in each campaign are based on false statistics. I presume the Garda Síochána is aware of this. Has work commenced in An Garda Síochána in regard to how much money is owed to the RSA and NTA? Given that we now know that the statistics in relation to these campaigns are garbage what process is being put in place in respect of the payment of moneys owed to the RSA and NTA?
Mr. John Twomey:
The campaigns that were run are in the overall context of road safety. Approximately 28 fewer people have been killed on our roads thus far this year. The context of this entire debate is road safety. What is important is that we keep people alive on our roads. The records of An Garda Síochána, the Road Safety Authority and the people of Ireland, particularly those who have improved their compliance with road traffic legislation, have contributed to increased road safety. The results of this are such that almost year-on-year there has continued to be a reduction in deaths and serious injuries on our roads. In this regard, over the period about which Deputy Kelly has been speaking, we have gone from 15th in Europe to in the region of 5th or 6th. This year again there has been a further reduction. It is important to remember that road safety has improved considerably over the years. The number of people killed and seriously injured on our roads has reduced. We are continuing our efforts to improve the situation from an enforcement perspective. That is a key point.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I accept that. I have raised the issue and I think everybody understands my point. My next question is to all of the witnesses who are serving members of An Garda Síochána. The report on breath testing was published. All of the witnesses who are serving members of An Garda Síochána have had significant careers in the organisation, having served in various jurisdictions and worked there way up through the organisation, in respect of which I commend them all. Some of the witnesses are policing in Dublin and others are policing in areas in respect of which breath test data has been hugely elevated, including DMR west. Prior to the breath testing issue becoming knowledge across the organisation, via various reports, did any of the witnesses have any idea that the figures were being inflated? I would like each serving member and not the civilian personnel to respond to that question.
Mr. John O'Driscoll:
It is important to point out that there are processes in place for measuring particular aspects of road safety and other aspects of activity in which An Garda Síochána engages, for example, as stated by the acting Commissioner, Mr. Twomey, how many people are prosecuted, how many people have died and how many people are injured on our roads. On the particular statistic about which we are now speaking we did not have a proper process in place. For example, there was no process around the return of devices used for breathalysing people or the recording of the identifying numbers of those devices and so on. As such, this statistic is distinguished from the other statistics in that regard.
As I understand it, at management meetings throughout the country, the core statistics around how many people were prosecuted for dangerous driving, drunk driving, and how many people have died on the roads, were examined. The figure in respect of how many breathalyser units were used was not a matter that was discussed at management meetings.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
So Mr. O'Driscoll had no knowledge of the issue?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
All I want is a Yes or No answer from each witness. I do not need any explanation.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am sorry for the curt manner in which the question must be posed but can the witnesses indicate a Yes or No answer?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Thank you. This issue was raised by a whistleblower in the west, a reservist, and it worked its way up the line to people responsible in various parts of the country for traffic management and so on yet there was no knowledge at the highest level in An Garda Síochána about it. I find that unbelievable. I know hundreds of gardaí. Everyone knew this was going on, except senior management. That is the evidence that has been brought to me. This is unbelievable and no one is being held to account, which everyone on the street finds unbelievable as well.
Mr. Twomey was asked at the press conference in February why he had not informed the Policing Authority of the report prior to its publication. Why was the Policing Authority not made aware of the report?
Mr. John Twomey:
I think I addressed that issue on the day. I addressed the issue with the Policing Authority in subsequent meetings. What happened on that particular day was that correspondence was sent to the Department of Justice and Equality and a note was put on the Garda website. The Road Safety Authority was notified some days after that. The failure to notify the Policing Authority was an administrative error. All of the other agencies were notified. A number of letters were issued at the same time on the fixed charge notice and breath test issues but notification of the report to the Policing Authority was overlooked. I have addressed the issue with the Policing Authority and it has accepted my explanation.
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I, too, would like to express my sympathies to the garda that was injured this morning. I have family members in the Garda Síochána and I realise the risks in the work involved. I wish the garda involved a speedy recovery.
On the pilot scheme for the reopening of Garda stations, it was announced two weeks ago at the Committee of Public Accounts that six Garda stations are to be recommended to the Minister for reopening. Does Mr. Twomey know when the Minister proposes to present the report in this regard to Cabinet?
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I was informed by way of a reply to a Commencement Matter last week that the acting Commissioner has written to the Office of Public Works to progress the reopening of the recommended Garda stations. What is the status of that process?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
The head of estate management in An Garda Síochána has written to the Office of Public Works as part of the normal interaction with the office around the various stations. He wrote to ask the OPW to assess its view about the works that would be needed to bring the stations into service.
As was explained separately, when a station reopens it has to comply with current building standards. There needs to be an assessment to establish whether some of the stations will have difficulty and require large amounts of work. We do not know at the moment. That is the position.
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I was informed by way of Commencement Matter that it was up to An Garda Síochána to specify what it requires in the new Garda stations. Is that correct, or does it come from the OPW?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
That is correct in terms of the services that need to be delivered. The Office of Public Works needs to look at the physical aspect of it. Some of these buildings have been closed for some time. The question of the state of readiness for them to be in a position to be reopened is part of the dialogue.
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
An Garda Síochána has sent an initial letter. Is that correct?
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Has there been any response from the OPW?
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How long does Mr. Nugent envisage this process of dialogue with the OPW taking?
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Are we talking about two months or two years?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will move on.
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am not finished, Chairman.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am afraid you are going to have to finish, Senator.
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am afraid you actually gave a lot of time to other members of the committee.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Senator, I am not responsible for the clock.
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I want to ask more questions, if I can be allowed, Chairman.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is not in the Chair's hands.
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am looking at the clock. I think I only had two minutes.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Senator, you told me you only needed two minutes.
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Please allow me an extra couple of minutes. Other members of the committee were given ample time.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
You fail to understand, Senator. It is not the Chair that is insisting on the clock; it is the Houses of the Oireachtas.
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Perhaps I can explain to the head usher that I needed an extra couple of minutes and that is why the next committee has overrun.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I would ask you to be as brief as you can, please.
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I want to continue to ask some questions. Thank you. I have lost my train of thought.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am very sorry, Senator.
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
My question is on the new gardaí to be allocated to the pilot scheme stations. Will they be redistributed from the gardaí already in the same division or will new Garda resources be put into these six stations?
Mr. John Twomey:
It will be a combination of both. The gardaí stationed in all of the Garda stations that were closed were merely transferred to the nearest station. They continued to police the same area but from a different location.
Having said that, over the course of the next 12 to 18 months we are going to get somewhere in the region of an additional 1,000 gardaí. Some of those will be used to go into those areas. There will be a review and analysis of each area and what has changed. Relevant questions include whether there has been an increase in population or increased crime. All these factors feed into the number of gardaí that we assign to any area.
This is fluid and it changes every week. We will continue in this way. This is a process we undertake currently with all communities, irrespective of the six Garda stations to be reopened. We look at any area where the population is growing and we put additional personnel in there. This may involve some of the people who were previously stationed there, if they are still in service. It will also involve some of the additional resources we will gain over the next 12 months.
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that across the six stations?
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That means, on average, the Garda deputation can perhaps see an extra eight or nine gardaí going into each of the six new stations. Is that correct?
Mr. John Twomey:
We need to consider the mix of the stations. There is increased demand in some areas over other areas. An urban area will have a greater requirement than some smaller rural areas. It is not an even divide. Several factors influence the number of gardaí assigned. That is why we have more gardaí in Pearse Street, for example, than in some of our rural areas.
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Earlier, the deputation referred to Rush Garda Station, which is one of the six to be reopened. It is in an area of increasing population. There is a population explosion in north County Dublin. Does Mr. Twomey envisage more gardaí being allocated to Rush than other stations named in the pilot scheme?
Mr. John Twomey:
When it gets to the time, there will be a formal process that we will go through to try to put in place an appropriate number. Where population increases are identified, we look to provide additional resources. The simple answer to Senator Clifford-Lee's question about Rush is "Yes", because the area has a growing population and is sprawling. Additional resources will be provided in that area because of increased demand.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Thank you, deputy commissioner.
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have one question left.
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Senator, another committee has to start in this room at 1.15 p.m.
Lorraine Clifford Lee (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When does Mr. Twomey envisage that the station will be reopened? I know the people in Rush. The town is in my constituency. They are concerned about this and there is talk of the station being reopened. When does Mr. Twomey envisage the station being reopened?
Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Thank you very much. We will bring the session to conclusion. I apologise to the other committee. There has to be a 15-minute break and the next committee is scheduled for 1.15 p.m. They are losing the time; we are not making a gain.
It is important to say that there is a general view in respect of the breath test situation. It was not a rash reaction. Unquestionably, there is a strong view, within the committee and across the populace, that at some level this did not simply break out. It was blessed. It may have even been blessed for good reasons in the context of a population being more aware of the situation relating to drink driving. However, it was an absolute abuse. It was wrong in the first instance. The extent of it is so absolutely wrong, I cannot say other than that.
On behalf of the committee I wish to thank you, Deputy Commissioner Twomey, and each of your colleagues for attending today and for your engagement.
When we were talking about road safety I was aware that a colleague of yours was injured this morning. You also lost an international police service colleague in a serious and sad traffic accident in County Wexford earlier in the week. We extend our sympathies to the Alexander family and to your fellow serving officers and colleagues in the United States.
On behalf of the committee I wish you all the very best for the special season before us and for 2018. I hope that the shared expectation and hope of a better future – I will not use the expression "a new beginning" - in terms of the policing service that An Garda Síochána provides lies before us. Your efforts are central to all of that.