Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 23 November 2017
Public Accounts Committee
2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 12 - Management of Ancillary Services at the Garda Training College
9:00 am
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will move on to chapter 12 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the accounts of the public services for 2016, which relates to the management of ancillary services at the Garda Training College, Templemore. This provides the committee with an opportunity to examine further matters which we already reported on in some detail in July in a report entitled Examination of matters in relation to Financial Procedures at Garda College, Templemore. It will be important for us to get an update on progress to address the issues and to be updated on other related audits being conducted into matters at the college. Joining us for this session is Mr. Niall Kelly, head of the Garda internal audit section; Ms Anne Barry and Mr. George Trimble from the Department of Justice and Equality; and Mr. Martin Bourke and Mr. Seamus O'Neill from the Office of Public Works. We have already had an opening statement from the acting Garda Commissioner for the entire meeting, so I call the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
My report on the management of ancillary services at the Garda College follows from the committee's examination and report earlier this year, which dealt comprehensively with concerns around the operation of internal audit, oversight and governance, internal structures and organisational culture in An Garda Síochána. The report does not revisit those matters. Instead it examines the operation, funding and accounting for ancillary services at the Garda College and the management of State-owned land acquired by the Office of Public Works for Garda College purposes. In addition to the college's core training operations, a variety of ancillary services and social activities have operated within the college campus, mainly for the use and benefit of trainees. These include the restaurant, bar and shop, and a number of college clubs and societies.
The operations and costs of the Garda College are administered in a similar manner to those of Garda districts. Most expenditure, including pay, equipment and capital costs, is managed and controlled centrally. Local management is responsible for expenditure incurred locally using funds advanced for that purpose. In addition to the Department-sanctioned public bank accounts used for the operation of the college’s core activities, members will recall that over 40 accounts with financial institutions had been operated, relating to the college's ancillary services. As of August 2017, a total of nine accounts were operating, including three public bank accounts for funding of core activities; two accounts controlled by college management for ancillary services, that is, one each for the restaurant and shop; and four club or society accounts managed by the respective memberships. A summary of the bank accounts is presented in figure 12.3 of the report.
The college's restaurant is the biggest element of the ancillary services, with a turnover of over €1.1 million in 2016. The restaurant was not formally established as a company but had its own accounting records and a separate tax number. The independently audited accounts for the restaurant indicate that up to 2008, the restaurant generated annual surpluses, with around €2 million in accumulated reserves at the end of 2008. Garda recruitment activity was suspended in the aftermath of the financial crisis. As a result, over the period from 2009 to 2016, the restaurant incurred trading losses totalling €1.95 million, which all but eliminated the reserves. The restaurant was primarily funded through retained living allowances, which were paid on a capitation basis to the restaurant for periods when recruits were attending the college. The funding model for the restaurant was changed in May 2017. It is now being run on a net cost basis, calculated from the cost of staff wages and restaurant supplies and taking account of till receipts. A record of the number of recruits in attendance in the college during each payment period is also provided to the finance directorate for information and correlation purposes. This is intended to avoid surpluses occurring in the account in the future.
For comparative purposes, we also examined the arrangements in place in a number of other public bodies that provide restaurant and canteen services on-site for staff and other users. These include the Defence Forces, a number of Departments, third level colleges and the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. Different service models are in place, with some providing services directly and other providing services on an outsourced or contracted basis, procured under a competitive process. The models used are summarised in figure 12.5 of the report. We found that An Garda Síochána did not have a clear framework in place for management of the college restaurant operations. Other bodies have formal arrangements in place that set out the governance structure and accountability arrangements, and how any surpluses generated may be used. I have recommended that a formal framework be put in place for the management and control of ancillary services. The Accounting Officer has agreed to that recommendation.
The other main issue dealt with in the report relates to the management of land at the college, all of which was acquired by the Office of Public Works and made available to An Garda Síochána.
The report outlines the complex legal situation that has arisen regarding the 37-acre site adjacent to the college that is used to provide a golf course and the process for acquisition of a large property at Dromard, 6 km from the college, in 2006 which was intended for development of a Garda training centre of excellence that has not yet been provided. In both cases, there are concerns that the approach taken may not have achieved good value for money. In particular, we found no evidence that An Garda Síochána involved OPW in advising on the granting, in 2000, of a licence for access to the golf course lands to a local club, no evidence that use of the golf course land was considered for college development purposes when An Garda Síochána and the Department sought additional land to increase the training capacity of the college, no evidence that the purchase of the Dromard land and transfer of control over it to An Garda Síochána has been underpinned by any formal agreement or clarification of responsibilities and no evidence that OPW followed up or monitored the extent to which the Dromard farm was used for the purposes for which it was acquired, or that its value was otherwise protected or optimised. I have made a number of recommendations in respect of property management that the Accounting Officers of An Garda Síochána and the Office of Public Works have accepted.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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As already indicated, this session must be completed by 1 p.m. at the latest because the acting Commissioner must attend a Policing Authority meeting in the early afternoon. This is the third topic to be discussed today so I ask members to be conscious of giving other members of the committee an opportunity to speak. I will start with Deputy Burke, who will have 15 minutes. All other members will have ten minutes. One way or another, the meeting will end at 1 p.m.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for attending. In the context of the internal audit and subsequent reports and discussions at the Committee of Public Accounts, we were advised that there were five tax numbers in operation in An Garda Síochána - one for An Garda Síochána, one for Garda College Sportsfield Company, one for the Garda College restaurant, one for the Garda College shop and one for the Garda College bar. Is An Garda Síochána in possession of tax clearance certificates for each of those numbers?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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As a public body, it should.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Each entity?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
I believe so. The Comptroller and Auditor General made reference to the fact that we made a voluntary disclosure to the Revenue Commissioners in respect of those elements so, in that context, clearly, there are ongoing discussions between ourselves and the Revenue Commissioners on that-----
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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So that is not finalised?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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So it may be difficult to get a tax clearance certificate for that particular number if the voluntary disclosure is still open?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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So the answer to that question is "No". Are any of those five tax numbers closed or did An Garda Síochána give notice to close any of them?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, I would imagine that An Garda Síochána would have to get the agreement of the Revenue Commissioners to terminate every one of those tax numbers.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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In other words, the operation has come clean but, essentially, An Garda Síochána has not yet received authorisation from Revenue that the discussions have concluded regarding the voluntary disclosure?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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On the legal status of each of those tax numbers, we were advised that only one involved a company structure. I think that was the Garda College Sportsfield Company. Do the other four tax numbers involve, essentially, non-company structures?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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So they are not companies?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Is there any way we can clarify that because I would like to be sure about it?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the audit of the bar, the last audited accounts we were in possession of related to 2009. Subsequently, we were told that each year would be audited by a private sector auditor. Have each of those audits from 2009 to date been completed?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am talking about the bar.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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So we were being advised back in February that no audit had been completed and that it was outstanding from 2009. We are now being informed that we are still not in possession of audited accounts for each year to date. Is that correct?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Would Mr. Nugent agree that is totally unacceptable at this stage?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Do our guests have any records available to them in order that the audit can be carried out?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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What is the problem? I do not understand what the problem is.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I know it has been shut down now but-----
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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What about the years 2010 to 2013, inclusive? What is the impediment to the private sector audit for each for those years?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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That is pretty fundamental. We are trying to lead in terms of transparency and show that we are taking what has happened seriously.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Is that the case for the restaurant as well?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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What is the position regarding audits of the restaurant?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Have they all qualified opinions or unqualified opinions or where do we start?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Are they significant?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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How can a voluntary disclosure be made to Revenue in terms of VAT, which is a transaction tax that is underpinned by proper accounting records, when it seems that there are incomplete records?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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So it is extreme guess work?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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That is very worrying. We should have all those details. I cannot get my head around why no advance has been made in respect of the position relating to the bar, particularly if a private sector company is doing the audit. I do not understand that. With regard to the rental income that was received in respect of the lands, under what tax number was that income return made?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Was it not the income that An Garda Síochána was in receipt of as well? It involved the rental income An Garda Síochána was in receipt of.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but prior to this, An Garda Síochána was in receipt of rental income.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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So the rental income went into the restaurant account?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Had that been taxed? In other words, was it returned?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I take it that the answer to that is "No" as well. That is also very worrying in terms of the progress we are making.
I think an application for charitable status for the Garda Training College was made previously and through the company structures. Where does that stand?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the staff that were in the restaurant and bar structures, have we returned a P35 and done all of the process in terms of returning the wages for both structures - the restaurant and the bar?
Mr. John Barrett:
The restaurant is completely compliant at this point in time in terms of P35, to the best of our knowledge, because it was this private non-limited entity, which made its own annual returns. As we transferred that across, Deputy, we were assured that all of these matters were in order. Perhaps Mr. Kelly wants to comment as to what he found.
Mr. Niall Kelly:
Essentially, the restaurant was operating like a sole trade within the Garda organisation. That has now ceased. I have a report that looked at, since the last time I was here and I have provided it to the committee, an audit of cash and general management of the Garda College restaurant and shop. That audit was to assure us that we now had complete control of those entities and that any cashflow or compliant issues we were in control of.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Control is one thing. We has been told that the restaurant is not a company structure. Have all of the wages, casual or otherwise, been returned to Revenue in regard to the restaurant?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses do not inspire confidence as there is a lot of use being made of the phrase "I would think".
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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No.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I has asked a very straightforward question. It is a "Yes" or "No" answer. Has the P35 for casual wages or otherwise been returned for the restaurant to Revenue?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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And the bar?
Mr. John Barrett:
Deputy, the bar is a function of that. I accept his point that we need to address this fully and completely. The CEO decided to close the bar facility when the issues became visible to us. We have never had full-time staff in the bar. The bar is staffed exclusively by part-timers and it has been operated under traditional messing facilities.
There are incomplete data from which we can try and draw accounts. They are very incomplete data and that is what Joe is talking about.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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So it is impossible to say. Is it guesswork?
Mr. John Barrett:
The Deputy and I would have a little background with regard to this area. It is a matter of how much guesswork. They are incomplete accounts in the classic sense. The data would not allow for a traditional P&L balance sheet to be drawn up with the kind of simplicity one would imagine.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Is there a private sector auditor who has agreed to conduct the audits for the bar?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Historically, for 2009. Has someone agreed to take on the job? Has a letter of engagement been signed and is he or she is ready to complete? Is he or she in the process of completing that?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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No.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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There was a private sector accountancy firm-----
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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-----that was auditing the bar-----
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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-----that gave an opinion on the 2009 accounts, I think. Subsequent to that, have we a signed letter of engagement with a private sector auditor to audit the bar up to termination?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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That is incredible. Why?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
I think we are covering old ground in terms of where we were. With the nature of these entities, they should never have operated in the way that they operated. We have admitted that. The closure of the bar, when it was done last year, recognised that the arrangements were not what they should be. What we have to do, or what my priorities have been, is to resolve the issues going forward, which included looking at the tax issues.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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My time is limited. I totally understand that point.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am not disputing that point. In terms of the bar, the witnesses seem to be saying that while a lot happened, we do not really know what happened and Revenue should shut it down and move on, especially if there is no letter of engagement signed by an accountant that shows that there is effectively no intent to quantify and get transparency in terms of what happened in the past.
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
We engaged an accountancy firm to work with us across the various entities and to assess the extent to which they could complete the type of work that the Deputy has referred to. As Mr. Barrett said, the material that was there in respect of the bar was not at a level that would allow that to occur. We tried to address that aspect, as he said, but we were not in a position to conclude.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. Nugent saying that this work is not going to be done?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Has the company said it cannot do it?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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If that had been said at the start my job would have been a lot easier.
Turning to the tax treatment of the living allowance that totalled €1.157 million in 2016, I note that, in November 2011, Revenue wrote to An Garda Síochána and directed that the practice of paying the living allowance during phase 2 was to be discontinued. What is the current position?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Has the practice been ceased?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the tax treatment, what happened from 2011 to when it was ceased?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:As I said, there is a reference, I think, in the C&AG's report, and apologies for putting words into Mr. McCarthy's mouth. He could not find evidence that Revenue confirmed that there was no liability. Is that correct?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
In the period, there was the audit in November 2011 across a wide range of Garda allowances. They referred to one aspect, one phase of living allowance, and directed that it no longer be treated as a subsistence allowance. They did not retrospectively say that there was a tax liability in respect of it.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Right.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General.
In terms of the Garda College, as much as €12 million was spent between 2012 and 2014. In terms of flavour, what would be the big driver for that expenditure, particularly as there was an embargo on recruitment?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The number of banks accounts have been reduced from 40 down to nine. Is that correct?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
In regard to the college there are four bank accounts, two of which will close as soon as we regularise the status of the employees. That will allow us to close down those two bank accounts. That would leave the standard imprest account, which is used for the college, and a second related to EU training. That amount-----
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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How many are active at the moment?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The four are active at the moment. In terms of the financing of those four and with regard to the question of funds, what is the balance between public funds and private funds?
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It is all public funds at this stage.
Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Thank you.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The next speaker is Deputy Kelly. We will have ten minute slots now because quite a few members wish to contribute.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I thank the Chairman. I am sorry but most of my questions will be in the form of a quickfire round because I have only got ten minutes and then I must go to the Dáil Chamber to discuss related matters.
In terms of the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO, we heard the last time that there were a number of people who worked in An Garda Síochána who failed to meet their obligations. I ask the acting Garda Commissioner is everyone who needs to be in An Garda Síochána now fully compliant with SIPO requirements? Has everyone who should have in An Garda Síochána, retrospectively, made declarations to SIPO? Is the risk in regard to this area now over? Finally, has any action been taken against anyone who failed to comply with their requirements under SIPO in the past?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I asked the acting Garda Commissioner.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I ask the acting Garda Commissioner to be responsible for it. Why can the acting Garda Commissioner not answer?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
It is because a huge amount of this is about personal responsibility. We have spoken about this previously. If people say to me that they are compliant, that does not require them to submit a document to say they are complaint. It is not possible, therefore, for the organisation to confirm whether that is the case or not. It can only occur in the context of wherever perceived conflicts occur. That is the nature of the legislation that is in place-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I understand that. I am trying to-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Has An Garda Síochána done everything to ensure that? Has an email gone out to everyone to ask if everything has been done in relation to the Standards in Public Office Commission, if they are compliant and if they are retrospectively compliant?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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An Garda Síochána is not just a normal organisation. It is the protector of law in this State. Is there an awareness, at this moment in time in this State today, of anyone ever not complying with this?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Is Mr. Nugent speaking on behalf of An Garda Síochána?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
I am speaking on behalf of An Garda Síochána. I will finish my reply. Separately, I have a meeting with the Standards in Public Office Commission next week where I will discuss this issue further. I will look for its advice on how An Garda Síochána can go further to promote the actions and requirements of individuals. I believe we do take reasonable-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I have taken it on the record that An Garda Síochána has done everything in this regard, that nobody has ever been non-compliant and that no action was ever taken.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Has Mr. Nugent exhausted everything?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Maybe Mr. Nugent could send another email around.
On the second issue, I will direct my query directly to the acting Garda Commissioner. During our initial hearings in respect of the Garda College in Templemore, the committee heard that there was a lot of toing and froing around a meeting on 27 July, the duration of which the Commissioner was not sure and around which time the issues in the Garda College were just breaking. A document was sent to the previous Garda Commissioner on 24 July by Mr. Kenneth Ruane. The then Garda Commissioner personally claimed privilege on this document. The committee has sought and is still seeking this document. That Garda Commissioner is no longer in place. I ask the acting Garda Commissioner here and now to release that document. It is not a document sent to him, rather it is a document sent to the previous Garda Commissioner. I ask the acting Garda Commissioner now to release that document to this committee. We have made numerous requests for it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Surely it would not be unusual, considering that many committee members here have asked for the document. Has the acting Garda Commissioner not already thought about releasing it?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I appreciate that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I do not see any reason that document cannot be released.
With regard to risk and training, it is fair to say that there is a whole new process for senior management in An Garda Síochána and there has been a sweeping of the decks around processes, changes and quality control, etc. Many of the internal processes have been changed. We have looked at the recommendations and An Garda Síochána is meeting most of them, or is trying its best to meet them. I have a query on the training as it relates to telecommunications. The previous Garda Commissioner asked the Mr. Ó Cualáin when he was the assistant Garda commissioner to put in place a risk process for the management of telecommunications, especially in the use of mobile phones by senior personnel. The witness put that risk process, or register, in place. Is that correct?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Mr. Ó Cualáin put in place a risk framework in relation to telecommunications to make sure that mobile telephones that are the property of the State and are being used by An Garda Síochána personnel are appropriately managed and maintained.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Was the witness asked by the previous Garda Commissioner to update that policy?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Were they implemented?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Were the recommendations not implemented by the time Mr. Ó Cualáin put his report together?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am concerned from a risk point of view. Senior personnel on two occasions, once in respect of the previous Garda Commissioner and once preceding that, have had mobile phones and data that went missing. In the context of risk, I want to know that this will not continually happen.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Why did it not happen prior to the last Garda Commissioner losing her mobile phone?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It certainly was not robust enough in the past. Mobile phones have gone missing with two Commissioners, one after the other, and in the case of the last Garda Commissioner it was after a new policy was instructed to be put in place or updated, or whatever the phrase is the witness wants to use.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Why did the policy not work in the past?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin:
There are lots of policies. It might not be that the person went against the policy of the day, or that something happened that was not in compliance with that policy. Things can happen outside of that. People can lose phones. I am just giving an example of where people are fully compliant with a policy but things happen.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is fair enough but-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am asking-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I did not hear this.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The issue of mobile phones?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am not asking about that. I ask as a matter of risk. This could apply to everybody coming through the Garda College Templemore. I am asking as a matter of risk that all gardaí know of these policies and are aware that there have been updates because it has not worked in the past.
Turning to the findings of Mr. Kelly and his huge amount of work, does he have enough resources to do his work? When we consider Mr. Kelly's letter to the committee, the volume of work is incredible. Will Mr. Kelly indicate if he has enough resources? This is an opportunity for him to tell the committee if he has enough resources. The amount of work involved in the four areas that Mr. Kelly has identified is critical but, frankly, at the rate we are going it will take years.
Mr. Niall Kelly:
Since I was last at this committee, our staff has increased. We actually had five extra staff, but we have lost two. Our staff has increased from eight to 11 and we have planned to go to 16 staff. We have not got full sanction from the Policing Authority but we are hoping to get that very soon, perhaps this afternoon, to bring our staff to 16. Effectively, since the summer our staff will have doubled from eight to 16.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am short of time so this will be a quick fire round. In order to save time, in some of my queries I may ask Mr. Kelly to submit a further response in writing afterwards.
In the context of the audit to date - I have twice asked a question of the Department but have not received any answers - and through all this process, has Mr. Kelly found any evidence that would alarm him of expenditure for entertainment and restaurants?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I respect Mr. Kelly. He is doing a hard job. Just for the record, though, I have asked a number of times whether officials and senior members of the Garda Síochána met in restaurants and why they met there. I have never got answers.
Can Mr. Kelly provide us with a copy of the updated Templemore risk register?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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No, I am not asking for it now. Mr. Kelly has written to us regarding the European Anti-Fraud Office, OLAF. What is the status of that matter and is it a big draw on resources?
Mr. Niall Kelly:
The OLAF investigation is not a big draw on resources. The GSOC investigation has taken up quite an amount of resources in putting together forensic witness statements. OLAF came, took statements and returned to Brussels. We have not heard from it. Presumably, it is putting its report together.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We considered the slush fund. It is serious stuff. Is there a separate investigation into that? Have agents been hired for that investigation?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Does Mr. Kelly remember the-----
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
I might say something. There is a letter from GSOC. We will happily provide it. In it, GSOC says that there are clear areas of concern in Mr. Kelly's February report, giving rise to the belief that events may have taken place. GSOC believes that it is in the public interests for these matters to be investigated and, as such, it extended the remit of its investigation to take into account the issues raised within Mr. Kelly's February report on the Garda college. Similarly, the GSOC investigation will take into consideration Mr. Kelly's final report regarding EU-funded training programmes. In other words, it has extended its investigation beyond just-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is covering OLAF, the slush fund and the whole lot.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Sorry. I am just using it as a general term. It is not describing-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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For instance, the bank accounts that were located at various addresses and so on.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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My final question will be brief and have nothing to do with that matter. Regarding Templemore staff, I seek an assurance - the witnesses can write to us, as I do not expect an answer now - about the status of their contracts. I am concerned about ensuring that there are no issues with zero-hour contracts and self-employment being treated in the wrong way and that everyone in Templemore is working under the appropriate conditions. Maybe through this-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I would rather Mr. Nugent write to us and answer the question specifically.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Nugent can send his reply directly to the committee. I call Deputy Cullinane.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The Chairman might tell me when my ten minutes are up and I will stop immediately. I know that other members wish to contribute before 1 p.m.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome Mr. Barrett, Mr. Kelly and Mr. Nugent. I am sure that they are glad to be back. The last time Mr. Kelly was here we had a discussion about his opening statement. He stated that there was an historical culture of non-co-operation, interference with his work and withholding information. Have matters improved since?
Mr. Niall Kelly:
Yes. I will highlight some of the improvements. I am reporting directly to the Commissioner as opposed to through Mr. Nugent, as was the case earlier in the year. A new HQ directive, 25/17, sets out a responsibility for members to bring items of concern directly to me. The Commissioner and I are redrafting the charter regarding the responsibilities and duties of internal audit. The executive board has approved that charter. Some discussion is under way with the audit committee, which wants to make a number of recommendations on it. The executive board has also agreed to meet me at least four times a year. Any concern that it has or I have will be addressed at those meetings.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. Kelly in a position today to say that, given that he was last here just a short time ago, there is now full co-operation, no interference and no withholding of information?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is progress.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Kelly also stated that, in his original audit, which was the source of the previous hearings, he was not able to give any assurance in terms of the financial controls. Is that still the case or has it changed?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Kelly.
If I have nine minutes left, the Chairman might let me know after four minutes have passed. Two issues need to be examined, the first of which relates to the learnings and changes that need to be made following the various internal audit reports. We have the latest audit report, which makes recommendations and sets out the priority actions that need to be taken. It is important that we learn from mistakes. The second and most crucial issue is the need for people to be held accountability for failures, mistakes or worse.
This committee has spent a lengthy time examining the issues surrounding the Garda training college. As Mr. Ó Cualáin will know, we have published a report. Who in An Garda Síochána has been held to account or sanctioned in any way for any of the activities at the training college?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I know that there are processes in place and I understand that some further action may arise from them, but we are a long way down the line since the first internal audit report was published and our work. Who in An Garda Síochána was in any way held to account or sanctioned for any wrongdoing or failing by them in respect of the activities at Templemore? Can the acting Commissioner provide any example?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin:
This happened over a long period of time, and many people came and went in that timeframe. They were just the users of a system that was in place, a system that was not up to the current high standard of public management of funds. Where anything of a criminal nature is suspected, it is being addressed.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that, but I am not talking about criminal investigations.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Let me be clear - I am not talking about criminal investigations because those are entirely a matter for the Garda. I am referring to situations where mistakes may have been made. Mr. Ó Cualáin mentioned that people were operating under archaic practices and processes, but those processes were put in place by individuals. That did not happen by accident, but by design. It was clear from the evidence and our report that that was the case. Either there is no accountability or there are no processes in place to sanction people for wrongdoing.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will get to that. As I said, the second part of my question will concern learning. I am not talking here about people who acted in good faith and worked through the existing processes, I am talking about the people who were the architects of the problems. Those processes did not fall from them sky, they were put in place by people in the An Garda Síochána. Acting Commissioner Ó Cualáin just used the word "flawed", thus admitting that flawed processes were constructed by people within An Garda Síochána. After all of the hearings and examinations that have been carried out, not one single person in An Garda Síochána, based on what I am now hearing from the acting Commissioner, has been in any way held to account for this. Is that correct?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What does that mean?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Have they been sanctioned? Or have they just had a word in their ear that they made a mistake? I am asking if anybody was properly held to account for carrying out what were very deliberate actions, particularly bearing in mind that the former Commissioner was of the view that these were very grave issues, which we all accept. Was anybody formally sanctioned in any way? Were any punitive measures taken against so much as a single member of the force?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The acting Commissioner's predecessors operated as Accounting Officers in the organisation but prior to 2006 this role came under the Department of Justice. Can Ms Barry confirm this? Is she here on behalf of the Department?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I signalled this earlier: can we put my previous exchange with the Secretary General up on the screen? I was asking questions about accounts that had been signed off by previous Accounting Officers. We had, for example, the transfer of €100,000 to the golf club that took place between 2000 and 2003. Am I correct?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We were unclear as to where that money came from; some of it might have come from voted expenditure. In his testimony before this committee, Mr. Barrett said that accounts might potentially have been compromised over a long period of time. Taking that into account then, what sanction was taken against any individuals in the Department for failings on their part?
Ms Anne Barry:
It has not arisen. That €100,000, as I understand it, was transferred from the sports field company to the boat club. Some explanation was given during the hearings as to the purpose of that money and I understand that it was used for gym facilities for training guards in Dublin. As Mr. Nugent has said, the Garda Ombudsman, GSOC, has now extended its investigation to the entirety of the internal audit report.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We know all of that. I asked whether anybody has been in any way held to account or whether any sanction has been taken against any individual.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I can see how it might arise, but Ms Barry's answer is no. Is she aware that a 2014 report into the Department mentioned a closed, secretive culture? She is. It talked about significant leadership and management problem and stated that "the Review Group found the culture of the Department to be closed and unnecessarily secretive"; that it was "an inward-looking organisation with limited learning capacity and reduced openness to new ideas"; and that it had a lack of clear responsibility and accountability both within the Department and when dealing with external agencies. It then lists those external agencies and among them is An Garda Síochána. The report goes on to specifically state that the management of the relationship of the Department with An Garda Síochána also needed to be examined and then finally says that this relationship is ineffective and an oversight of a confused, passive and disaggregated departmental relationship with An Garda Síochána. What improvements have been made since then to specifically address that relationship?
Ms Anne Barry:
As we outlined before, new governance arrangements have been put in place in recent years. Just last Monday, in fact, a new governance framework agreement was signed between the Secretary General and the acting Commissioner. This sets out the general governance and accountability framework and the responsibilities of the various parties.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Could the Department send us a detailed note on this?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I come back to Mr. Barrett, who was absent when I asked the question. Mr. Barrett said when he appeared here before that it was his view that accounts might potentially have been compromised. He may or may not have actually used the word "potentially". Does he remember saying that?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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How far do those compromised accounts go back?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Generally across the signing off of accounts?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Cullinane has one minute.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I point out to Ms Barry that the head of human resources at An Garda Síochána is saying that accounts were signed off on that were potentially compromised. I have already questioned acting Commissioner Ó Cualáin over his responsibility as an Accounting Officer. It is unfortunate that we do not have the Accounting Officer from the Department here today but Ms Barry can certainly speak for the Department. If it is the case that such accounts were signed off by predecessors of the current Secretary General, then this would obviously be very serious. What has the Department done to establish whether or not those accounts were compromised at any time?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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They are closed off then and nobody is held to account.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is also my understanding. My understanding is that nobody has been held to account in the Department, who simply closes the matter, and nobody is held to account in An Garda Síochána. I do not find this acceptable.
My final question concerns the recommendations in the internal auditor's report. Mr. Kelly recommends here that the bar remain closed and the space be put to more appropriate use. Am I correct in saying that that is his recommendation?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Can I also ask acting Commissioner Ó Cualáin to confirm that management's response was that this recommendation would be put forward for the consideration of the steering committee? That is what it says here. Is that correct? Or perhaps Mr. Nugent could answer me.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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This says that it will be considered by the steering committee. Has it been considered?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Why not?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Why not just accept the recommendation? It is a very explicit recommendation.
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
It is Mr. Kelly's recommendation. The point is that I have not spoken to others regarding whether there should or should not be a bar in the college. At the moment the bar is closed. If there is to be a decision on that then it will be considered and there will be a broader consultation.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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What criteria would be used?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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There were no bars in other institutions that were subject to lengthy discussions at the Committee of Public Accounts and that have been linked to financial irregularities in their own organisations. It is a clear and explicit recommendation from an internal audit that this bar be closed, remain closed, and the space put to a different use. Why was this recommendation not accepted?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It goes without saying that one cannot have a bar licence without tax clearance. It would be impossible to-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Who would have the licence?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
We would take it through An Garda Síochána as an entity. A proper governance structure would have to be put in place were we to do this; we would put a range of measures in place. We have not made any decision either for or against this, it just has not been considered. As things stand, the bar is closed and it is not currently a priority that it be opened. We will continue to sort out the other recommendations before even looking at this.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The bar is closed for two reasons, firstly because it was closed and secondly because it cannot open legally without a licence.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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If the bar were to reopen, what does the process of getting a licence entail? Would somebody have to go down to the local District Court? Who would go down to do that?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Does one have to purchase a licence in this day and age?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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What I am saying is that there might be a cost to getting a licence.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is not as simple as-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Mr. Kelly mentioned progress and identified a number of specific points, including the fact that he reports directly to the Commissioner. Is that done in a formal way? Are formal meetings set up wherein he reports to the Commissioner?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When was that set up, and how many times has Mr. Kelly reported?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How many times has Mr. Kelly met with the Commissioner since September?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How many?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When did the new situation, whereby the executive board meets Mr. Kelly four times a year, start?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There is a new directive whereby items of concern are brought directly to Mr. Kelly. When did that come into effect?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Have items of concern been brought to Mr. Kelly's attention?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Would Mr. Kelly like to elaborate on those items of concern?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is Mr. Kelly not in a position at the moment to elaborate on those items of concern?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Are these new matters coming to Mr. Kelly's attention or are they items of concern that are part of the legacy as it has been described to him?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Are they governance issues?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Are there still ongoing governance issues?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When does Mr. Kelly think he will be in a position to report on these items of concern that have been brought to his attention?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I would like the witness to explain to me what that is.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am asking Mr. Kelly specifically about items of concern. A new system has been set up. That is very welcome. Part of the problem was that there was no mechanism whereby items of concern could be raised. I am now hearing something very positive. There is a mechanism in place. I have asked Mr. Kelly about items of concern. He said they are serious items of concern. I understand Mr. Kelly is not in a position to elaborate at this point. I am just responding to his answer. Will he report in due course?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Mr. Barrett is the head of human resources, is that correct?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is he on the finance committee?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I did not mean that. There was confusion between so many reports. I was only trying to establish-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That is all right. I was not questioning Mr. Barrett's knowledge, only trying to establish where he fits into the picture. He has been praised by members of this committee in the past for his directness, concern and attention to detail. What is his opinion on the progress that has been made?
Mr. John Barrett:
I pay tribute to the acting Garda Commissioner. He has been very true to the improvements in transparency and the commitment to creating a climate where people can come forward with issues of concern. That has been a visible change, even in the very short time he has been leading the organisation. The informality that Mr. Kelly spoke of in respect of his rapport with the acting Garda Commissioner is reflected in my own experience and the organisation is better for that.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is Mr. Barrett concerned about any particular issues? Have items of concern been brought to his attention in the manner that they were brought to his attention before, when he shared them with this committee?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are all in that department.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I want Mr. Barrett to answer the question, if he does not mind.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The famous culture has changed, where people-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand that. I am asking specifically about our role.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I return to my question about items of concern. Are matters being brought to Mr. Barrett's attention that he wants to bring to our attention, in the manner that he did before?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is Mr. Barrett happy that the mechanisms are now in place to allow his office to do its work?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I will raise one or two matters specifically. I heard the questions concerning the restaurant. Has it now been sorted out? Are those accounts now audited? Have all the difficulties concerning the restaurant's employees and their status been sorted out?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Mr. Barrett should just answer my question, because I have only a few minutes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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By whom will they be employed?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is that process in being?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When will that process be completed?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The accounts of the restaurant will come under the regular accounts that-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is that for 2018?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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As for the disclosure to the Revenue Commissioners regarding the figure of €32,000, is there an update on that from the Revenue?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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How long has it been with the Revenue Commissioners?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Perhaps someone can revert in a minute and tell me how long.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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As for the Dromard farm, is that a property of 252 acres? I will come back to the witnesses from the Office of Public Works, OPW, on this. I also have a question for the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. McCarthy. His concerns pertained to the control and management of that land, as opposed to its purchase. Is that correct? Were his concerns about the purchase of the land?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
I outline in my report the sequence of events involved. My concern around the purchase was really about the evaluation of options available to the Garda Síochána in conjunction with the OPW at the time it bought the land. There seemed to be a lot of chopping and changing about priorities, requirements and criteria for selection.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There was the question of whether it should be near to Templemore or further away. I see that. I revert to the witnesses from the Office of Public Works. Is it correct that the State owns the 252-acre property?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Does the OPW rent a small portion of that out?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We will come to the current situation.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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At one point, did the OPW rent some of this out to local farmers?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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All of it?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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So it was only a small proportion of the 252 acres?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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At that time all the grazing land was rented, and the money derived from leasing that land went to the Office of Public Works?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is it correct that at one point it went to An Garda Síochána and it took the money for that land?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is now back under the remit of the Office of Public Works.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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And has the Office of Public Works received the money that An Garda Síochána received for that rent?
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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For the full period?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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An Garda Síochána, to be fair to it, wrote to the Office of Public Works in 2008 about the arrangement. There does not appear to be any response in the records. Did the witnesses clarify or check this before coming into this meeting?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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And making use of the money, legitimately, as it saw it.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Office of Public Works did not respond to the letter.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is that acceptable?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General has identified gaps in the oversight of State land and has made recommendations in how to deal with this in future. Will Mr. Bourke say how he responds to that recommendation or to the deficit the Comptroller and Auditor General identified in the management of State lands, particularly in the context of the farm.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I know that. What is the Office of Public Works doing about it? How is the Office of Public Works responding?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I read the Office of Public Works response. It is saying that there is normally no difficulty -----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I have the greatest of respect for the Office of Public Works, there is a vital role for it but a gap has been identified here. The Office of Public Works did not respond in 2008. Money was received and used legitimately, according to An Garda Síochána. The gap was on the part of the Office of Public Works. There has been a recommendation that the Office of Public Works actively examine that. Mr. Bourke says that the Office of Public Works is now looking at an occupancy agreement, is that correct?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When will that be in place?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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That farm was bought. It is obviously a very valuable asset in terms of strategic planning. There was a plan for it which did not happen. Has the Office of Public Works a role in examining that? The land was bought for a specific purpose which has not been brought to fruition. Perhaps if it had happened, and we had a centre of excellence, we may not have had the amount of difficulties we have had.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What is the plan and its timescale?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is certainly best practice, I accept that. I am asking what is the timeframe for it.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am sorry, I am watching my time. The golf course is 37 acres and is owned by the Office of Public Works.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Where are we in relation to that? Various gaps have been identified by the Comptroller and Auditor General on that, that a lease was given, there was no discussion with the Office of Public Works, there was no consideration given to buying back the lease. All of that has been identified. What is the current position in relation to the golf course, in relation to back payment of the money due annually and so on? Has it all been paid?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Can Mr. Nugent say how much is due?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When was the last time any money was paid?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
I do not have the precise information but it was many years ago. The Deputy is asking about the status of the golf club. It is important to say a number of things as there is much uncertainty on the matter. An Garda Síochána's priority has been to remove Sportsfield from the picture at the earliest opportunity. That started with the transfer of the other lands, the playing field lands as they are known, in Templemore. That is in the process of conveyancing.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I want to clarify this. Sportsfield Company has property, that property must be transferred back, and then the Sportsfield Company will be wound up which was one of the strong recommendations of the report.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Where is that process at?
Mr. Martin Bourke:
As I was about to say, the discussions are taking place between the Office of Public Works and the Chief State Solicitor's office on that matter. It is a question of how long the conveyancing takes. There are no obstacles. The company is not causing any obstacles. The Office of Public Works wants it to happen. It is a process issue. I cannot give a time but it is in progress.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What about the golf course?
Mr. Martin Bourke:
As I said, the priority has been to address and resolve that issue. We have not addressed the question of the golf club today because we recognise that complex issues need to be resolved. The outcome of the discussions on the transfer of the Sportsfield land are helping the Office of Public Works to inform itself about the most appropriate process on this. We have a very strong relationship with the people in Templemore, so we equally need to recognise that -----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I have met with people from Templemore about the golf course. I know that it is a vital part of the community down there. I am not questioning that, I am questioning the amount of money due and why it remains outstanding. I am asking for confirmation of a timeframe for the process of winding up the company and so on. The interim report was last February, is that correct?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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What about the back pay of money?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
Let us step back for a moment. The transfer of lands takes an extraordinary amount of time. That has been the primary focus in addressing that issue. We will then engage with the golf club around the money that it outstanding to the State in respect of the land rental, we are very conscious of that. I expect that we will have those engagements with the golf club at some stage later this year.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy MacSharry.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chairman and apologise in advance if I am abrupt.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputies should know that there are three speakers, Deputies MacSharry, Murphy and Kelly and there is 30 minutes left. They each have ten minutes and the witnesses must leave then.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Chairman tell me when I have reached seven minutes and I will try to wind up, to be fair to my colleagues.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Give them a chance.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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There were references to a slush fund earlier. I know the witnesses do not like that term, so what should we call it?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, so unusual sources of funding emerged. One of the college's bank accounts was assigned to the home address of -----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Nugent can stop me if there is anything he cannot -----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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There is no problem with that. Mr. Nugent will be well used to it.
There was prima facieevidence of fraud which brought it to the stage where the case was given to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission and things developed along that route, is that fair?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Can Mr. Kelly tell me if it is correct that there was prima facieevidence of fraud that led him to hand material to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Was there a specific investigation on that matter which led Mr. Kelly to pass that information to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Was a legal firm used when drawing up the report? Did Mr. Kelly use a legal firm for-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I popped out for a minute or two several times during the earlier exchanges. I ask the witnesses to stop me if I am being repetitious. External accountants were hired in May 2017. Is that correct?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Was that put out to tender?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Someone was selected from the tender.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to sourcing suppliers of food, beverages and other supplies, were there any concerns or findings regarding kickbacks?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Was there any evidence of hello money being paid, holidays------
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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-----tickets for the races or anything like that?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Good.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Will there be one supplier for everything?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I understand. In terms of the employment of staff, I am aware that Mr. Barrett stated there were part-time staff. How were staff recruited and hired?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am talking about the restaurant.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Was there a process in place? Were jobs advertised?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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We might check whether there was a process involved, whether advertisements were placed or whether it was more a case of Mary's first cousin being free at the time.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Local knowledge meaning so-and-so is free, we need somebody for a few hours and we will get him or her.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a process in place in this area now?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Mr. Nugent to send the committee a note setting out what way this was done, how pay arrangements were struck and issues like that.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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We are all agreed. Have any staff who were employed in such a way taken legal cases?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Did any of the ad hocstaff who were employed take a grievance after the fact on the basis that they were underpaid or poorly treated?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I know, because I was half listening, that Deputy Connolly probably covered much of the ground I am about to cover. Again, I ask the witnesses to stop me if I go over old ground. In terms of the rents for the properties, the amount of rent to be paid for the golf course was €12,600. This was for an area of 37 acres. When the rent was struck it was not yet a golf course; it was just land. Is that correct?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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It was already a golf course.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Thanks for that. The rent for the 162 acres of farm land was €38,000 per annum.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Were those rents based on valuations? Who did those deals?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Locally.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Were they appointed by tender?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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A firm then came in.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Were they local firms from the town?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Between 2009 and 2013, the rental income on this land was €131,000.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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That is about €32,750 per year. Is that right?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Who would authorise that?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Who in the college would authorise it? Who liaised with the auctioneers to say-----
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is that Mr. Nugent's predecessor?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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He would make decisions on varying rents and similar matters. Is that the case?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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If the rent for four years was €131,000, it makes €32,750 per annum. The lease was more, however.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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No. It can often be an odd amount of money and fees for the auctioneer and things like that would probably be built in. Mr. Bourke stated the actual lease was less than €38,000.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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What did it go down to?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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In what year was that?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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From whom did the OPW get the €131,000 in that case?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I am just a bit confused.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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How many years?
Mr. Martin Bourke:
In 2007, the Office of Public Works leased the land. In 2008, the Office of Public Works leased a portion of the land in order for hay to be taken off it. From 2009 to 2013, An Garda Síochána, through its superintendent, leased the land, again through the same auctioneer. When this process started and it transpired that that money should have been properly remitted to the Office of Public Works we got a cheque for €131,000, being the amount of money collected for the land between 2009 and 2013.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Was there a lease in place?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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What was the rent for that period?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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That is €32,750 per annum.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We must move on.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Are there existing valuations on all the assets?
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is the book value an old valuation?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will continue with the Dromard farm issue and OPW oversight. The Comptroller and Auditor General's narrative in the document is interesting. There is mention of a centre of excellence because Garda numbers were going to increase. The specification was 15 to 25 acres and Dromard farm is way above what was outlined at that stage. There were expressions of interest and then there was a guide price when it first went on sale. The Office of Public Works estimated a market value of €3 million and there was permission to go to €3.5 million. It was to be sold for €3.5 million, which was the upper end. The Department intervened and indicated needs could be met more effectively than through the purchase of Dromard farm, identifying a 29 acre site. For some reason, we are told that did not proceed. Dromard farm was put up for sale later with a guide price of €5.45 million and, essentially, it was purchased for €4.3 million. It was way above the specification of what was needed. Does the witness believe the value on it today is the same as the purchase price, which is somewhere in the region of €4.3 million?
Mr. Martin Bourke:
Sorry, but that is not what I said. I was asked the value that has been placed on it. I understand the book value would not have been updated since it was purchased. It would more than likely stand at the €4.3 million. I could ask for a current valuation of that land and I would reasonably expect it to be a different value from what it was back then.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It would be a lower value.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Would it be significantly lower?
Mr. Martin Bourke:
I would prefer to see a professional valuation on it. It is turning into very good pasture land - it was not always like that - and it has been very well cared for. There is very good husbandry in place. It would be difficult to say what the added value would be without an active market.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is fair to say the known involvement of the State in purchasing land tends to increase the value of the land.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If it is disposed of afterwards, the valuation can go downwards.
Mr. Martin Bourke:
When my staff took over management of this farm, it is one of the reasons we deliberately and strategically went for a five-year lease on the land. We knew there was much work to be done on it and it would also give us sufficient time to know what exactly we wanted to do with the land.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is above the specification needed. The witness has said part of the woodland is being used. Does Mr. Bourke foresee a scenario whereby the farmland aspect of the property would be part of the centre of excellence?
Mr. Martin Bourke:
I referred earlier to an agreement that the Office of Public Works has with An Garda Síochána and we will do a master plan for the overall college. It will look afresh at what exactly is needed and at the making of those specifications. When that happens, we must consider the appropriate property solutions and match them to resources. I cannot speculate at this stage as to whether Dromard farm will be part of the specification or solution. It could transpire that there is sufficient area around the college or in the existing curtilage of the college to satisfy the needs of the Garda. That would be pure speculation at this stage.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When the Department intervened in 2005 and informed the OPW that Garda requirements could be met more effectively through purchase, it identified somewhere else that was worth €500,000. Who was making the decisions at that stage? What control had the OPW over this? Was it just acting as an agent?
Mr. Martin Bourke:
We would have been acting as agent in terms of being professionals in the area and getting valuations. As has been mentioned, there seemed to be some chopping and changing in the requirements. I was not part of that. We went down one road with Dromard farm and when that was withdrawn or sold privately, the Office of Public Works went in another hunt. While that was ongoing, Dromard, which had already been seen as suitable, returned to the market. One of the particular requirements, as I understand it-----
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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My time is very short.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I saw that. The Committee of Public Accounts report from July 2017 contains a number of aspects quite critical of the OPW. One of the conclusions we made was that the fact the Garda college was leasing land from the OPW highlights a very worrying weakness in the management of State assets. It was indicated that Dromard farm may well have an impact on the Garda Vote. Did it have such an impact? The committee noted that funds to be paid to the OPW for the lease of Dromard farm would be taken from the Garda Vote, which may have an impact on Garda services. Where will the money be taken from? Has it been considered at this stage? What would be the expected amount in question?
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Another conclusion from the report earlier this year was that four of the 19 recommendations in the Garda College implementation plan can be considered completed. Some progress has been made since but they are not all completed. Is the witness satisfied with progress to date? We were very dissatisfied with the speed of implementation.
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
We provided a copy of the report from the Policing Authority. It confirmed that in its opinion, 11 of the 19 recommendations have now been completed. The employees issue will be resolved before the end of the year, which will also allow us to close bank accounts, which is also a consideration. We will be left with broader elements that in some ways were reliant on other entities. These include the conclusion of the procurement of food, which will happen around the first quarter of next year; and the transfer of land, which will take an amount of time and will have an impact on the wind-up of the Garda College Sportsfield Company Limited. It is most important to say that particularly with the closure of the bank accounts and regularisation of employee status, the general infrastructure and procedures around the college will have been moved to a very different place from where they were this time last year.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We are up against the clock.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I will be quick. I can give a few minutes to Deputy Aylward.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There will be no voting in the Chamber.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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There is a policing committee meeting at 2 p.m. and the Garda Síochána representatives must leave at 1 p.m. We have ten minutes for the two Deputies.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman and our guests for coming in. I have a couple of questions, with the first arising from comments made in a line of questioning from a previous meeting. It concerns the previously voted and audited budget of An Garda Síochána and the Department, going back to the transfer of moneys outside the control of An Garda Síochána. Mr. Kelly identified these as "compromising" the accounts in terms of not being able to stand over them. Ms Barry made a comment earlier that it simply was not possible to look back, or words to that effect. I would have a different view.
My question is for Mr. McCarthy. Does something like this not warrant a special investigation of the Vote of An Garda Síochána going back to where it appears money was being used for all sorts of different purposes outside the control of both An Garda Síochána, the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Department? This is where it is to be determined what the moneys were being used for and by whom. This may include other agencies that are not present now. Is it not appropriate that the Comptroller and Auditor General would take a considered view as to whether such an investigation should take place of a certain number of years, depending on the information coming from Mr. Kelly's audit?
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I would have thought it was technically possible but perhaps it would be legally difficult.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
Yes, legally. I take the point. There is the question of what the value of it would be to examine all this in detail, particularly as additional work is being done, as I understand it, by An Garda Síochána. It is the right place for that to be done. I have done the audit of the appropriation account of previous years and based on the information available to me I presented and published the appropriation accounts. I cannot republish an appropriation account for a prior year. It is not available to me to do that.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy. We have touched on staffing levels and when I mentioned it before, Mr. Kelly answered some questions. The unit has 11 people and is heading for 16. I thought it had 11 people the last time I asked the question but Mr. Kelly has said the number was eight. That is fine and I must have misunderstood him at the time. The section has also had the assistance of external accountants and auditors, which I am sure is helpful. How long will it be before the work is completed?
Mr. Niall Kelly:
I will always be examining matters relating to the college and it will come up in audit plans for the next number of years. I have supplied my current work programme to the committee and it identifies four audit reports, two of which are complete and two that I hope to have completed by the end of this year. That process might identify more work that needs to be done and I cannot definitively say that will be the end. I hope this section of auditing will be completed by 2017. Other matters will fall into next year's plan and I will co-ordinate with the senior auditor from the Comptroller and Auditor General to get its views as well to ensure I am not missing something.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I will make these my final questions in order to facilitate Deputy Aylward. It relates to the transfer of over €100,000 from the Sportsfield company to the private members' club, or the boat club. There is no control over this by An Garda Síochána as a unit. The members happen to be gardaí but it is a private club. Has there been any indication from the boat club as to whether the money has been or will be returned?
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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Ms Barry mentioned the money was spent on a gym, if I am not mistaken.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I have articulated my views on the fund in this room. It is subject to GSOC inquiry and I hope it will finish soon. It has had plenty of time. We are talking about moneys deriving from the public Vote or part thereof. We cannot be certain, one assumes. In the course of Mr. Kelly's audit, has he ceased investigation of the transfer on the basis it is with GSOC?
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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It has been completely ceased.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Kelly know where it is with the investigation? Has he spoken with anybody about it recently?
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Kelly is in the course of providing that.
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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When does he expect to furnish that?
Alan Farrell (Dublin Fingal, Fine Gael)
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I am not talking about the detail.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Much of what I wished to ask has already been dealt with. When we were doing our investigation we had the witnesses before us. One could describe what was happening as "non-governance". Are the witnesses happy the whole system has changed, including control, governance and management of the college? Is it running now in a proper manner? With the questioning and investigation, we found many problems and things going on that should not be. There were 48 bank accounts and that is now down to four. Has everything been scrutinised and can we now be proud of Templemore Garda College?
Mr. Niall Kelly:
I have confidence in the current management team in Templemore to address these matters. They have not fully addressed them but they are in a process. Likewise, there is a steering group, mainly operating from Mr. Nugent's office, and it is progressing the issues at a pace. It has done tremendous work over the past six months or so.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There were gardaí serving on boards when, by law, they were not allowed to do so. Has that been sorted out? Were there any repercussions for individuals or group because of the mismanagement? Will there be consequences, fines or penalties arising from this scrutiny and conclusion that it was bad management?
Mr. Joseph Nugent:
I will take the first part of the Deputy's question as it relates to the directors of Sportsfield. They continue to be Garda members. The advice given to us is that, notwithstanding the issues there, it would be more appropriate that they would stay to see the winding of Sportsfield rather than have new directors put in place.
With that exception, the broader issue about director membership is in hand.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Was there any financial reward for anyone serving on boards-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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-----or were they all volunteers?
Mr. Dónall Ó Cualáin:
On the Deputy's broader question, a lot has been done over the past two years since this was first raised. In the context of issuing sanctions, where there were management or governance issues, they have all been approached and we have processes in place to ensure that our governance systems are for more robust and that people understand the financial management area in which they operate. We also have started courses with the Institute of Public Administration to ensure that people who go into those positions are fully au fait-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Were they reprimanded in any way?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In hindsight, why did it take so long? There were investigations between 2007 and 2016. Why did it take so long to get the facts and figures right and the whole thing under control? Why was continuous mismanagement and non-governance allowed to happen for ten to 15 years?
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In hindsight-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That will conclude-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I just wanted to ask about the masterplan. Have we plans in place? What about the finances? We are talking about 21,000 recruits by 2021. Are there plans in place for that? How much of the land will be taken up under these plans?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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At this stage-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I have five or six more questions.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I know. However, aside from the vótáil, the acting Commissioner has to go to a Policing Authority meeting. Therefore, on behalf of the committee I thank the gardaí and all the members of the force who were here today as well as those from the OPW and the Department of Justice and Equality. We will dispose of that chapter. Is that agreed? Agreed.