Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We are considering a motion regarding the Horse and Greyhound Racing Fund Regulations 2017. I welcome the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Michael Creed, and his officials to discuss it. It was referred to the joint committee by the Dáil and the Seanad on 15 November for its consideration. The Houses imposed the deadline of 28 November for the committee to report back on its consideration of the motion.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for being late. I am not sure what the protocol is, but I was scheduled to be here at 6 p.m. I contacted the secretariat because I was also dealing with a Topical Issue in the Chamber.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We suspended the sitting for half an hour to facilitate the Minister.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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The horse and greyhound racing industries occupy a key position in the sporting and social landscape. As a nation, we have a strong affinity not just with racing but also with the social scene at its core.

One of the overarching objectives of the Government is to ensure that the horse and greyhound racing industries achieve maximum potential and, in so doing, contribute to economic and social development across a wide geographic swathe of the country. Successive Governments have staunchly supported these industries through legislation and policy initiatives over a long period. The horse and greyhound racing industries have a huge geographic spread and they deliver to the local economy like few others.

These industries receive financial support from the State through the horse and greyhound racing fund under section 12 of the Horse and Greyhound Racing Act 2001. My Department makes payments from the fund to Horse Racing Ireland and Bord na gCon. In the period 2001 to date, a total of €1.12 billion has been paid from the fund to the horse and greyhound racing industries in accordance with the provisions of the Act. The cumulative upper limit on payments from the fund provided under the relevant regulations has, therefore, been reached. Exchequer funding provided from the fund is pivotal to the survival and continued development of the horse and greyhound racing industries. To give effect to the provisions of budget 2018, this cumulative upper limit must be increased by regulation.

The Estimates for my Department, passed by both Houses as part of budget 2018, include an allocation of €80 million for the horse and greyhound racing fund. This will be distributed in accordance with section 12(6) of the Horse and Greyhound Racing Act 2001, with 80% or €64 million going to Horse Racing Ireland and 20% or €16 million going to Bord na gCon. To allow my Department to provide the moneys allocated in budget 2018, it is necessary to comply with the technical requirements under section 12(13) of the Horse and Greyhound Racing Act to increase the cumulative limit on the amount payable from the horse and greyhound racing fund by €80 million to €1.2 billion. This is achieved by way of the regulations submitted to the committee today. The aggregate limit on the horse and greyhound racing fund was increased in this manner in 2004 and in 2009 to 2016, inclusive.

The recent Deloitte report commissioned by HRI indicates that the total direct and stimulated expenditure of the Irish breeding and racing industry is estimated at €1.84 billion in 2016. The report indicates the core industry comprises €914 million of this with secondary expenditure making up the remaining €927 million. In addition, an estimated 15,200 jobs are at the core of the racing and breeding industry or in directly related industries.

The achievements of Irish-bred and Irish-trained horses abroad and the enduring influence of Irish-born jockeys and stable staff underscore Ireland's global prominence. The Irish equine breeding and racing industry is competitive at a global level despite other major racing nations having far larger populations and economies. The horse and greyhound racing fund has been pivotal in shaping the destiny of this dynamic industry. It is noteworthy that the Irish thoroughbred breeding industry has developed from an essentially amateur cottage industry pre-1969 to a position in which Ireland now is one of the leading bloodstock producing nations in the world. The industry produces close to half of all thoroughbreds in Europe. We hold the distinguished position of being the third-highest producer of foals coupled with having the third-highest number of active brood mares in the world.

Government funding is crucial to maintain and build on our position as one of the world's leading breeding and racing nations. Government funding of this industry is an excellent opportunity to yield a high return for this investment leading to a flow of income right through the economy. Support for certain strategic industries is important for future economic growth and can provide widespread benefits for our society and economy.

The greyhound industry is a significant industry for Ireland. It has been embedded in Irish society for decades and is an important activity from an economic, social and cultural perspective. It provides and supports considerable employment directly and indirectly throughout the country. The Irish greyhound sector has come through challenging times during the economic recession but it continues to make a significant economic and financial contribution to the Irish economy, especially at local level. The Bord na gCon annual reports indicate that, despite a severe recession, the industry is recovering and showed an increase in operating surplus in 2015 and 2016. The industry remains significant for the economy and has the potential to grow with the necessary investment in facilities and support infrastructure. Funds generated from racing are re-invested in the industry through contributions to prize money and grants to various bodies involved in the greyhound racing and breeding sector, as well as promotion of greyhound welfare and the regulation of the industry. The funding provided to the greyhound racing sector helps to sustain a long-standing tradition as the industry is part of the social fabric of our country. This funding underpins economic activity in what are, in many instances, less affluent regions of the country. It has also contributed significantly to the improved facilities now available at greyhound tracks throughout Ireland. Greyhound racing is an activity that is inextricably linked to the farming community. While it is undoubtedly part of the fabric of rural Ireland, it also enjoys a strong urban base.

The advent of new technologies and business models has challenged the Government to re-evaluate the funding mechanisms for the industry. As part of its overall commitment to the industry, the Government has addressed, through legislation, the anomaly whereby remote and online betting operators were outside the tax net. The Betting (Amendment) Act 2015 came into force on 15 April 2015. The Act brings betting exchanges and Internet and mobile betting providers within the scope of the existing licensing regime and extends the existing 1% turnover tax on land-based bookmaking activities to online and mobile bookmakers. The Act also means that a 15% commission tax for betting exchanges has been implemented. These measures have had a positive effect on revenue streams with significant increases being realised. It is worth noting that betting tax has increased from a total of €31 million for 2015 to €51 million in 2016.

The Horse Racing Ireland Act 2016, which gives effect to the recommendations in the Indecon report, came into force on 8 February 2016 with certain sections commenced on 9 March 2016 and January 2017. The Act introduced a range of improvements in governance and accountability arrangements, many of which derive from recommendations made by Indecon International Economic Consultants following a review of the sector. Indecon International Economic Consultants was also commissioned to conduct a review of certain matters relating to Bord na gCon to assess the suitability of the legal, governance and regulatory framework supporting the greyhound industry and to identify opportunities to maximise its commercial income.

In response to the recommendations made in the Indecon and Morris reports, as well as in the report prepared by this committee, chaired at the time by my colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Doyle, I have introduced a draft general scheme of the greyhound industry Bill. The Bill will address the governance of Bord na gCon. It will strengthen regulatory controls in the industry. It will modernise sanctions and improve integrity with a view to building a reputation for exceptional regulation in the sector. As members are aware, the draft general scheme has progressed through the pre-legislative scrutiny phase and a memorandum will go to Government in the coming weeks requesting approval to publish the updated general scheme and to submit it to the Office of Parliamentary Counsel for drafting. In this regard, I wish to extend my thanks to the members of the committee for their thorough and thoughtful deliberations during the pre-legislative scrutiny process. I believe the Bill will bolster the Irish greyhound industry, enable it to deal with existing challenges and maximise its future potential.

I am sure we are all in agreement that more balanced regional economic growth is desirable and this is a key priority for Government. In this context, these industries should be given recognition for the considerable contribution they make to rural economic activity and employment. Their activities are spread throughout rural areas and can be credited with enhancing the social fabric of rural Ireland. Local stadia are a focal point for supporting economic, social and cultural needs. Point-to-point meetings take place at 70 locations throughout the island, contributing significantly to many rural communities.

Horse and greyhound racing compete in a number of different economic arenas, including sport and hospitality and in a diverse betting arena. Therefore, their collective reach throughout the economy is extensive and significant, reaching almost every county. The important contribution made by the horse and greyhound racing fund since its inception in 2001 has been vital to ensuring that these industries can continue to invest in infrastructure, whether through continuing the programme of capital investment in racecourses, ensuring prize money remains competitive or education and development of their skilled workforces.

Section 12(13) of the Horse and Greyhound Racing Act 2001 provides that a draft of these regulations be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas and a resolution approving the draft be passed by each House before the regulations are made by the Minister. Accordingly, I seek the support of all committee members to ensure that Horse Racing Ireland and Bord na gCon receive the funding provided for in budget 2018 and that the important role played by these industries, as well as the economic activity generated by them, are sustained in future.

I acknowledge the contribution that members of this committee have made to the debate on the future of these critically important industries. I commend these regulations to the committee and I look forward to discussing any matters arising.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. Senator Paul Daly was the first to indicate. I will then call Deputies McConalogue and Cahill in that order.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Creed, and thank him for his report. It is well known that I am chairman of Kilbeggan Racecourse, which is one of the small racecourses. As I am heavily involved, I am very much aware of how important this fund is for the sustainability of the smaller tracks and training yards that generate employment and create income in rural areas. The Minister states that one must speculate to accumulate. The investment of €80 million in the industry returns to the State almost threefold. With that in mind, I would be touting for an increase in what is being spent on the industries in order to drive them forward and bring them on to the next level. There is an old saying that the day one stops going forward is the day that one starts going back.

The Minister also referred to the betting tax and the Betting (Amendment) Act 2015. The gap was almost bridged by a €51 million intake in 2016 as opposed to an output of €80 million. I would like to know why the rates of turnover tax for offshore and online betting were not considered in the 2017 budget. This would bring us up to - and would probably surpass - the €80 million and the additional moneys could be reinvested in the industry as per the provisions of the Horse and Greyhound Racing Act 2001. I know that the tax rate in France is far higher and that all the money taken in is reinvested in the industry at no net cost to the state. I would like to hear the Minister's views on the possibility of bridging the gap and increasing the spend through increased taxation.

Horse racing comes under agriculture, hence the Minister's presence this evening. I would like to hear the Minister's opinions, if possible, on the aspects of horse racing that do not fall under the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. I refer to a number of ongoing issues, namely, those relating to employment law and the rates revaluation. Employment in horse racing is categorised as not relating to agriculture. Where does the agricultural designation of horse racing stop and start?

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for coming before the committee to discuss this issue. The Fianna Fáil Party will be supporting the regulations and we believe it is important to provide this financial support and stimulus to the horse racing and greyhound sectors. Both have reaped the dividends in the past years. As the Minister rightly pointed out, our horse racing and horse breeding industry here is among the best in the world. What has been done since the late 1960s in terms of how the industry has been transformed is a story that goes beyond what anyone could have expected. Funding is central to continuing development. I think that is important and we will certainly support what is being done. As the Minister indicated, the recent report conducted by Deloitte on behalf of Horse Racing Ireland outlines how the sector and the industry benefit the economy as a whole. What is important is that the benefits are spread throughout the regions. Those benefits are an important to rural areas. It is often forgotten that the majority of breeders run small operations.

Likewise, funding for the greyhound industry is very important. The Minister referred to the greyhound industry Bill. It is important that this Bill is expedited. Will he provide an update on the timeline relating to it?

Senator Paul Daly touched on the issue of the betting tax. I would be interested in further feedback on the assessment from the Departments of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and Finance on the impact the extension of the tax to online betting has had. Is all online betting being taxed? This is primarily a matter for the Department of Finance. However, I would like to hear the Minister's views on his engagement with that Department as to how matters might proceed.

Senator Paul Daly also referred to how labour is treated in the horse racing sector in particular. It is important that work done in the sector should be regarded as agricultural activity. It is also important that there be flexibility in work practices in order to ensure that the type work done in training yards is included in such activity. I know that is an issue and I would like to hear the Minister's comments on it.

There has been a tradition of harness racing in Ireland but it has not been as popular here in recent years as has been the case in countries such as France, where it is very significant part of the horse racing industry. This matter was discussed by the committee in 2015 and, following on from that, Indecon was commissioned to conduct a report to establish the potential for expanding and supporting harness racing in Ireland. Indecon made certain recommendations in its report. Will the Minister expand on how those recommendations have been progressed? I am of the view that work in this regard has been much too slow. It is important that the Indecon recommendations be considered.

Representatives from the Irish Harness Racing Association have met most members to discuss the Indecon recommendations. One of these is to the effect that seed funding be provided to the Irish Harness Racing Association in order to enable it to act on the recommendations and develop the sector. In order to facilitate the latter, the report suggests that the association establish a race track. There are important timelines involved in the context of enabling the sector to grow. Will the Minister outline where he wishes to bring harness racing and provide a commitment to the effect that the recommendations will be acted upon and that seed funding will be made available in order to facilitate development?

Jackie Cahill (Tipperary, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for his presentation I would like to declare a personal interest. I am a director of a privately-owned greyhound stadium.

These two industries are very important to the Irish economy. We had the unprecedented achievement in the past couple of week of three Irish-trained horses finishing first, second and third in the Melbourne Cup, which is known as "the race that stops a nation". That Ireland could bring three horses to Australia and that they would fill the first three places is a major achievement and a significant advertisement for our industry.

Those involved in greyhound racing and horse racing were disappointed that no increase in funding was announced in the budget. In light of the increased revenue from taxation of both industries, they are of the view that there is a valid argument for an increase in funding. We have met representatives from both industries and they put forward very valid arguments in respect of where the extra money could be invested for the benefit of the horse racing and greyhound industries. Horse Racing Ireland and Bord na gCon have very ambitious plans to advance their industries.

Senator Paul Daly outlined the potential on the taxation side and questioned whether we are capturing all of the revenue from the taxes that apply. I wish to make a case for those in one sector of the industry that are under extreme pressure, namely, track bookmakers. These individuals are definitely voting with their feet because the number of them involved in the sector is growing progressively smaller.

Unless we do something on the taxation side to give them an incentive, track bookmakers will become an extinct species. Track bookmakers are vitally important to the social aspect and the whole concept of Irish racing. I refer to the atmosphere in the ring. The track bookmakers are a huge part of that environment. Bookmakers make the point to me that the track bookmakers are using exchanges to try and boost their turnover. Their view is that the level of tax that is being charged to the large corporations should not apply to track bookmakers, and if there was exemption for those under a certain turnover and the level of tax on betting exchanges was reduced, that would be a very significant incentive for track bookmakers and would allow them to try to stay in business. There has been significant growth in the yield from taxation but the amount of money that is being taken off track bookmakers in taxation is small. Unless we do something concrete for them, I fear for their survival. As I stated, they are a significant part of the sector and it would be a sad day if they disappeared off the scene. A monopoly would not be in anyone's interest.

The Minister mentioned the draft general scheme of the greyhound industry Bill. That has gone through the committee here. The proposed Bill is urgently needed. The sooner it can become legislation the better. I suppose there has been much adverse publicity for the sector. The sector needs the mechanics of this Bill in order to deal with the issues it currently faces. Issues are dragging on for far too long and they are not being dealt with promptly enough. Talking to members of the sector, their hands are tied as regards advancing those issues quickly. The proposed Bill could tighten up a lot of the legislation. When an offence is committed, we need to intervene and bring it to a conclusion a lot more quickly and not have it dragging on for six or 12 months, as is the case in some of the occurrences in the recent past.

Point-to-points were mentioned. I attended my local point-to-point on Sunday last. It was held in Thurles and there was a fair crowd. It brought home to me the value of it to the local economy that the small man can start off there with his horse at minimal expense and get it into a shop window. If one is lucky enough to have a horse that is good enough to win, even at a local point-to-point like that, the big buyers are there and the opportunity is there to get a worthwhile return on a shoestring budget. I had occasion to see a local horse winning on Sunday and there was a knock-on benefit in the form of a queue of people who were trying to purchase a horse that looked to be promising. Everyone who has a horse lives for that dream, namely, that he or she will have one that can go out and win and give a significant return. Thankfully, Ireland's reputation as the producer of top-class horses is greatly adding to the economical benefit of producing those young horses.

Senator Paul Daly made a couple of points about the definition of agriculture and the way employment law and rates are being interpreted by different Departments. On the employment side, there has to be recognition that if we change the categorisation, it will make it impractical for stables to operate. Unfortunately, long days are the norm. If one has a horse going to a sales or a race meeting, the person who is handling that horse will have an extremely long day. In agriculture, we are used to peaks and troughs. At harvesting time, long days are accepted. A re-classification of the horse-breeding sector to non-agricultural is not practical and will not work in the future. That issue must be addressed. On the rates side, it is agriculture and it should be rated as such.

As Deputy McConalogue stated, we as a party are glad to support the motion. We see the benefits of this fund for the two sectors. There are very ambitious plans by both Horse Racing Ireland and Bord na gCon and the fund has a huge part to play in that. We have two sectors that we can be justifiably proud of and anything we can do here for the development of these sectors must be welcomed.

On the harness racing mentioned by Deputy McConalogue, everyone here has been lobbied. It is in an infant stage. They have had trial racing at Dundalk track and it has gone well for them. They have had connections with the French sector where harness racing is extremely big. They see very significant potential in this sport. They want to try and develop a race track for themselves. What they have proposed to us does not involve a huge amount of money. It is dealing with a different type of horse. There is very significant potential for us to develop this sector. As regards the seed capital they are looking for, the Department should try to look favourably on this, give them a leg-up on the ladder and see how far they can go. Up to now, they have achieved everything they stated they would do, including getting French sponsorship. They are at a crossroads. Everything has been done on a voluntary basis up to now. They need to put a structure in place if they are to develop this sector further. It would be regrettable if we were not in position to give harness racing the chance to fulfil the potential those involved in the sector strongly believe exists. It will be a specialised sport but it can have a niche market. It is one we should try to develop.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Paul Daly and Deputies McConalogue and Cahill for their observations and questions.

I might deal with the last point on harness racing first. It is true to say that the Indecon report, which now charts the blueprint and the roadmap for the sector, was probably conceived in these committee rooms in the context of the Horse Racing Ireland legislation. As the committee will be aware, that report was commissioned and the Department published it in October. Historically, it is also true to say, as Deputy Cahill alluded to, that this is a sector which, in the not-too-distant past, almost had predominance as the equine sector that attracted the greatest levels of public support. It has, however, for one reason or another, fallen significantly in the intervening period. It has significant potential to re-establish itself. Recently, I met informally representatives of the sector post the publication of Indecon. As a Department, we see a public gain to be had from working with the sector. There are issues the public at large wants to see addressed and from my engagement with the Irish Harness Racing Association, it is an appropriate vehicle and is interested in working with the Department to address some of the issues in the areas of public concern, apart altogether from the economic potential of the sector.

Indecon made five key recommendations. One was to recognise the Irish Harness Racing Association as the appropriate governing body. It also stated that the corporate governance of the sector needed to improve. It talked about developing a five-year plan in terms of where the sector should go. I cannot recall all five recommendations. One was that the Department should continue to fund the pilot project on horse welfare and education with which it has been involved in that area. It also spoke about a financial plan for the sector. That is the blueprint. The sector now needs to reflect, and probably not to respond in haste but to lay a solid foundation. If it is a solid foundation, this Department will work with the sector in terms of achieving its potential.

I appreciate the point about Dundalk. I have been working with French harness racing interests which have shown the potential that is there. It is a sector with a wide geographical spread. In my own county, and in west Cork especially, there is a particularly strong interest in it, and it is a long established tradition. We want to work with the sector. At a recent meeting, I told them that our budgets for 2018 are already published. It will take the Irish Harness Racing Association time to digest and construct the appropriate responses outlined in the Indecon report. When it does that, it will not find the Department wanting in terms of working with it. There are issues around unstructured harness racing on public roadways which is the subject of adverse comment in the media and there are significant animal welfare concerns around it. This is an area where we would like the Irish Harness Racing Association and the Department to work together and bring about a public gain. We also hope that the two working together would enable the Irish Harness Racing Association would enable it to achieve the sector's potential. It has an international dimension and is something that can benefit the economy but we have the Indecon report and now our challenge is to build on it. Having met representatives of the sector, I know they recognise that too.

A number of other points lend themselves to quick responses. I hope to take the greyhound Bill to Cabinet before Christmas and publish it afterwards.

Senator Paul Daly spoke of the betting tax and referred to international comparisons with the funding available, I think he mentioned France. I am conscious that while €80 million is a lot of money, it is not in comparison with the support available in our competitor countries, a term I use advisedly because it is a very mobile industry which, if the policy framework was not right here could relocate in a substantial way. The funding available in other countries far exceeds the amount we are in a position to put into the sector, not only in France but elsewhere. We must keep an open mind on these matters. Primarily the betting tax is an issue for the Department of Finance but we need to ensure that we make continual progress in funding the sector. This year, the fund remains the same as last year but in the exceptionally difficult three preceding years, there was a €6 million increase year on year for three years and then this year, in a very difficult year, we held the fund at €80 million. I take the Senator's point that when one stands still, it is like going backwards and certainly, I would like to revisit the fund next year, but in the context of a very difficult budget with many competing interests, it was not an insignificant achievement given what occurred in the three proceeding years.

I am very conscious of the point to which the Senator alluded, although he was not specific, regarding the WRC issue. I do not wish to trespass on the area while it is before the WRC but it is one on which we keep a very anxious eye. We are very conscious of the implications it could have on the industry and especially for smaller players. We will not comment further until there has been an outcome as it would not be fair to do.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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What about track bookmakers?

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I share Deputy Cahill's view that tracks, whether greyhound or horse racing, would be far poorer places and less colourful without the presence of course bookmakers. I do not think that anyone wants a situation where the only option available is the tote. It is an issue that Horse Racing Ireland has been considering and there has been engagement with bookmakers on the matter and I hope a resolution is imminent. I encourage both Horse Racing Ireland and Bord na gCon to be conscious that these people bring colour to race meetings generally and that the race meeting environment would be much poorer without them. I understand that there is significant competition for pitches especially in horse racing, but we must ensure that they can survive and whatever steps that need to be taken by both bodies should be considered in a fashion that ensures this.

Deputy Cahill also raised point to point racing. It is something I was very conscious of on my appointment. We have a huge international reputation - Deputy Cahill referred to the Melbourne Cup which was a staggeringly good shop window for us, for Irish trained horses to take the first three places is unprecedented - but that is built on a foundation often laid in local communities, with small owners and breeding establishments. Point-to-point races are the critical shop window for them and there is no point in saying otherwise. The organisers of point to points were under tremendous pressure in recent years to continue to provide that service. Happily, last year we succeeded in significantly addressing the financial concerns of the organisers and addressed the available prize money for races. I am confident that will continue to be built upon. That is the critical foundation for the industry which we showcase internationally and is something I am exceptionally proud of. Significantly increasing prize money and grant aid to the committees organising point-to-points, I believe it was from €4,000 to €6,000 last year, was important and was recognition of the critical service that they provide.

I think I have dealt with everything.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We can come back if there is anything else. Senator Pádraig Mac Lochlainn is next.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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I am glad that when the Minister responded to the issues around the funding of the Irish Harness Racing Association, he acknowledged that the 2015 meeting of the agriculture committee discussion of a motion similar to the matter before us here was the genesis of the Indecon report. My understanding is that a number of Deputies present had said they could not support the funding that was proposed in the motion unless a serious commitment was given to address the Irish Harness Racing Association. This report was commissioned on the back of that. The Department has had this report since May and it took five or six months for the report to be published. My concern is that in this industry, people acting in good faith have built relationships internationally and are paying their own way to travel to international events and conferences to build an industry in Ireland. They have done tremendous work. The Indecon report clearly endorses that and believes in the sector's potential. However, there are things that frustrate me. The Department has allocated €500,000 to Horse Racing Ireland which was also the subject of an Indecon report, published in May this year. Why did this Indecon report into the potential of harness racing, whose publication is way over due, have to wait for six months? The Minister says that money is allocated for 2018 but he is coming before the committee with a motion for money to be allocated to other sectors. That is fair enough but the harness racers are looking for seed funding. The Minister refers to the corporate challenges they face, but they are stepping up to them. Like others here, I have met with them and am immensely impressed by them.

They have provided initial training to board members and further training is under way. The size of the board has been expanded. There are five subcommittees. A core five-year strategy is being prepared and will be ready in mid-December. The board will outline its plans to the committee in January. The board needs seed funding to cover implementation. The Minister has said he wants to address some of the issues in INDECON. INDECON has clearly recommended that seed funding should be allocated to the IHRA to enable it to move on and address matters. It is understandable that the Government needs reassurances about a five-year plan, the corporate structure and oversight in the industry, the sector, the animals and so on.

Two years ago this committee took a stand about the following. Personally speaking, having considered this situation, I believe it is deeply unfair that the publication of the report was delayed by six months and post the budget allocation for 2018. The association has made huge sacrifices. It has reached a critical moment in terms of its future. As one can see from the report the association does not have a huge amount of financial resources but anyone can see that it has a huge amount of ability and commitment. It needs the Government to step in and act as its partner. A significant investment will come from France over a number of years, which demonstrates that the sector has immense potential and international friends. People have asked why they should invest in the area forever if its own Government or State will not do so.

I appreciate the comments the Minister has made today. Clearly, he supports the IHRA and has met them recently so I have no gripe with him. I know from what he has said that he is supportive and open to the association. Everything he has said has been encouraging. He acknowledged at the outset that the committee took a stand on this issue a number of years ago. Through no fault of the association the report was delayed by five or six months. If the report had been released on time and the association had received seed funding it would now be in a much stronger position. The association does not just need seed funding but capital funding. If it can secure a particular racing track soon it will prove very beneficial. It is a huge opportunity that must not be missed. We have a group of people here who have made considerable personal and financial sacrifices. They have real enthusiasm for the sector. They have been pretty much endorsed and vindicated by an independent report. However, they need some financial assistance to implement some of the structures, improve organisational structures and appoint key staff. As the Minister will know, the association does not have any staff. I urge him to consider providing a portion of what he has recommended today: it is a relatively small amount of money.

In terms of the Minister asking the committee to support the motion for funding to be provided for the two sectors, I am saying there is money available. In terms of the request for seed funding, I ask that the Department engages with the IHRA to ensure that it has the assurances that it needs. This is a critical moment for the association. It is unfair of the Minister and his Department to say there is no funding for 2018 because publication of the report was delayed by his Department.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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No.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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I can clarify that aspect in a minute. I understand that the Department had the report in May but it was not published for six months, which is deeply unfair. I ask the Minister, even at this late stage, to consider providing seed funding subject to the standard assurances being supplied to the Department. I urge the Minister and his officials to work proactively with the organisation considering the delay. If the report had been published in May the organisation would be in a very strong position today.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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The association would also have received funding just like Horse Sport Ireland, Bord na gCon and Horse Racing Ireland, which would be only fair and appropriate.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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To clarify, we are specifically dealing with the motion today. As the issue was brought up initially by members we decided we would allow a discussion in conjunction with the motion.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and his officials.

I shall continue with the discussion on the Irish Harness Racing Association. There seems to be considerable opportunity to develop the sport. I support the calls for the Department to provide seed funding if at all possible. I know it is not easy for the Minister to provide everything that people want. I have witnessed a rise in the number of sulky racers on roads in my area and, therefore, believe it would be worthwhile to investigate the potential of the industry. There is great opportunity to advance the sector, particularly in rural areas.

In terms of greyhound racing, everyone has confessed their connections to the sector. I wish to confirm that my father kept greyhounds years ago. It was always a pursuit that we loved as children. We walked the dogs and brought them to the bog for a walk. Unfortunately, my Dad did not enjoy great success with them but his children immensely enjoyed caring for the dogs. Let us not forget the family aspect of keeping greyhounds, particularly in rural Ireland. I support the calls to increase funding to the sector.

In terms of betting tax, I was a member of the Oireachtas joint committee on justice when we conducted pre-legislative scrutiny concerning the matter. I wish the Minister well with trying to get the Department of Finance to ring-fence anything because I know it is not an easy thing to do. I have discovered a new term "hypothecation."

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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It is a fabulous word.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I did not like the sound of it originally but when I discovered what it meant I liked it less.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I confess that I had to be educated about the meaning of hypothecation.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I know for a fact that the Department for Finance is not keen on hypothecation. I wish the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine well with trying to get the Department of Finance to ring-fence anything for the sector. It would be marvellous if he succeeds.

In terms of a betting tax on online betting, at the time there was talk that a great amount of funds would be generated. There is potential for an extra €20 million per year to be generated, which is not to be sniffed at, and the amount will only increase.

Horse racing is hugely important to the economy. I was lucky enough to watch a marvellous film that I am sure will be of interest to this committee. The film "Against the Odds - Racing with Gordon Lord Byron" was made by a young man, Nicholas Ryan-Purcell from Cloughjordan, County Tipperary. The film tells a fantastic story about the owners of the horse, the Cahalan family, who literally started off racing the horse at point-to-point races. Sadly, the horse broke its pelvis. The horse was due to be put down but the family decided to work on him with his trainer, Tom Hogan. Thankfully, the horse has gone from strength to strength and now is internationally successful. I recommend everybody should watch the film as it gives an insight into how important the sector is to rural communities. It is amazing to realise how many people work in the sector. The film also showcases the joy of winning and the passion that goes into preparing horses for racing. The sector is incredibly important and we need to continue investing in the sector. I support the Minister in anything he wants to do to support the sector as the sector is so crucial to rural Ireland. I hope the Chairman will forgive me for mentioning the film but anyone who watches it will gain a great insight into the sector.

I shall return to discussing hypothecation. Will the Minister pursue hypothecation? It would be marvellous if he could ring-fence funding.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for her insightful contribution.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister and his officials for coming here.

We have all met the delegation from the Irish Harness Racing Association. I can confirm that they are very committed and hardworking. Their project is going places but they need seed capital to make things happen.

I am struck by the fact that the IHRA seems to be the poor relation to the other sectors that are so well funded and affluent, which is an issue that concerns my party.

I have spoken to the harness racers about their little projects to discourage people in the Traveller community, in the inner city and elsewhere from sulky racing on the roads and to direct what could be quite a dangerous activity into something which is properly regulated and properly done and has potential and a future. There is tremendous effort on their part to try to do that and I wholly support anything that could be done to put a seed fund in place for them. It would be more than disappointing if Horse Racing Ireland and the other sectors were to get such a huge amount of funding while the IHRA is left out again. That would be just unacceptable. I understand that it is looking for an initial sum of €600,000 or €700,000 as seed capital to get up and running and going. It would reflect society's sense of responsibility to people who are doing the right thing to allow them get themselves going and to ensure they are regulated properly.

We have had Horse Racing Ireland and Bord na gCon in here before this committee. We have had rows with them, generally over how things are run and operated. I know that the Minister and others have acknowledged the difficulties, to put it mildly, that exist in these organisations. Situations like the one we saw recently involving the doping of dogs keep coming up all of the time. There is a sense of despair. I spoke to a number of people in that industry the other day and they were still of the view that little is changing. It is to be hoped the Bill will go some considerable way towards regulating and putting some kind of shape on matters. Many people are very fearful, however, and I look for the Minister's reassurance that the greyhound Bill will bring a very firm hand to this when it goes through. People are at their wits' end and the organisation has really fallen into disrepute. We need to take a grip of this situation and handle it properly.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the Minister for his presentation and ask him for some clarification on the Indecon report. If, as our information suggests, the Department had this report in May, why did it only come out six months later?

I understand that the IHRA, is looking for seed funding of approximately €770,000. Can a commitment be made to give it that money? As the Minister has mentioned himself, it is clear, going through everything that we have seen here, that the IHRA has made a fair effort and even addressed many of the governance issues flagged in the Indecon report. There is a premises in Portmarnock, as the Minister is probably aware, that is currently in receivership and will be sold shortly, and this is an opportunity for the IHRA to move forward. Is there a commitment to solve this?

With regard to horse racing in Ireland, all of us who come from rural Ireland are aware of the benefits of having racing tracks at Galway or wherever else. We can all see what it does for communities when people buy young horses and then have luck with them on the road and the same is true of greyhound racing. I support this but I ask the Minister to confirm that money will be given to the harness racing body to get it up and running because it is clear from the figures we have seen that this would end up as a money-spinner. There has been a lot of betting in other countries, in France for example, on races that have taken place here. As the Minister said, this sport was big years ago and now seems to be making a comeback. There is an opportunity here but when it comes to getting funding harness racing seems to be seen as the bad relation. It would be wrong if one organisation were to be much better looked after than another, particularly if that other organisation might develop into a very good thing further down the road.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I will take up the comments on harness racing. The point has been made that the Department delayed or had some mischievous intent to delay the publication of the report. This was not the case. We commissioned the report in good faith and we recognise the potential of the IHRA to become the kind of body with which we can engage in a structured way and into which we confidently invest taxpayers' money. The clear inference here, however, is that the IHRA is not currently that kind of body. The Indecon report states that its identification of a seed funding requirement of €770,000 is conditional on the IHRA delivering on a number of matters, including a five-year strategic plan, which has not been received, and a costed programme identifying the specific target areas for expenditure and what the return would be on that investment. What the Department is saying here is that we have a fund and a document on which we can make progress. In all honesty, however, I cannot at this point commit taxpayers' money to an organisation that Indecon has clearly indicated is not one we could work with, at least not in its current manifestation. The IHRA people I met recognised, in fairness to them, that they still have a journey ahead. If the association can move and deliver on all of these conditions very quickly, we will have to assess at that point if is fit for purpose.

What we are open to doing, however, is engaging with them. We, too, see public gain in the issues raised by the members, particularly when it comes to welfare, and as a signal of good faith we are in fact committing to continuing and to expanding the funding we already make available in the areas of harness racing, horse welfare, and the involvement of the Traveller community. We are signalling good faith but we are also acknowledging, and it would be remiss of us to do otherwise, the fact that Indecon has said that the Irish Harness Racing Association is not fit for purpose in its current form. The IHRA has itself recognised that and recognised that it has a journey before it when it comes to corporate governance, drawing up a five-year plan, and so on. There is an open door to this in the Department. I have met representatives of the IHRA already and we have officials ready to engage with them to reach the point where we can have confidence in committing public funds.

Senator Mac Lochlainn referred to the Horse Sport Ireland, HSI, to the Indecon report, and to the additional funding of less than €500,000 that HSI received this year. We need to be aware, however, that HSI is a State body that has been in existence for more than ten years. Specific deliverables are required to draw down that funding and we have clearly stated that that additional funding is contingent on the implementation of the reform outlined in the Indecon report for HSI. We are using the same yardstick here. I acknowledge the potential of the harness racing sector and we have the basis on which to proceed. The enthusiasm of the people I met is infectious. They are very committed and I appreciate that they have been putting their own resources into this. We must equally acknowledge, however, that if we are to commit substantial public funds to the initial request for €770,000, we have to be sure that we have a structure in which we can have confidence. Our only requirement is that the IHRA now deliver on the Indecon requirements.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Before we leave this topic, I would like to point out that the IHRA people only got their hands on the Indecon report on 1 November. It would not have been possible for them to have come up with a five-year plan in three weeks. This might have been an issue had the association got the report three months ago.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that. I would much prefer that they now reflect and build the structure appropriately rather than rushing headlong into something that will not stand up to scrutiny. The Department and its officials are available to engage and work with them to get them to that point. The Deputy will appreciate, however, that we cannot commit public funds without having that work done.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Would the Department be willing to put in the money if the IHRA were to have that work done within whatever number of months?

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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There is a willingness in principle here, though the situation with budget 2018 will be difficult. We need to work with the IHRA now to get it to the point where we can have confidence in it as a body. It is not that anything that they have done to date reflects poorly on them - not at all.

Far from it. As I said, the enthusiasm of the association is infectious. It has been running this to the best of its ability but we need to have more confidence in the structure to provide the substantial amounts of public funding the Deputy is talking about. The Indecon report provides for that so we have that basis on which to proceed.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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My point, as well as the point made by other members here, is that to enable the Irish Harness Racing Association, IHRA, to carry out that work, respond to the Indecon report and get those structures up and running, there has to be recognition that it is currently voluntary and has no staff. There needs to be seed funding to enable it to take on that work. While it may not be prudent, in the Minister's view, to give substantial funding at this stage, it is important to provide initial seed funding to enable it to work with the Minister. Given the potential for the sector and for harness racing to grow, it is important to support it in doing so and for the Minister not to give it a massive amount of work to do without any resources, staffing or backup to do it. If the Minister could engage with the association, provide some initial funding and give targets to indicate what the funding for is for, it would enable the association to grow, respond and take the sector forward.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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I reiterate that this report was submitted to the Department on 25 May 2017. Five months later, through no fault of IHRA, this was published after the budget. The Minister can see the recommendations. Indecon has rightly recommended that a number of corporate management issues be addressed in its five recommendations. It also clearly states that State seed funding could be provided on a pilot basis and its impact could be evaluated before any further funding is considered. I would be uncomfortable, considering this report was delayed by five months-----

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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It was received at the end of May. The Department had to conduct its own evaluation and was then in contact with the association. We had to evaluate it. It was not simply a case of getting a report one day and acting on it the next. There was no undue delay.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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Five months seems to me to be undue. I appreciate everything the Minister has said about the people and the potential. However, he has not acknowledged that the association was waiting a long time for this report and it was submitted to his Department on 25 May. The first chance the association had to address the issues in the report and comply with the Department's funding requirements and the report's recommendations was five months post-budget. As Deputy Martin Kenny said, how on earth, with all the immense resources the Department has, could it take five months for it to go through this report? How can the Minister expect a group of very determined and resourceful but voluntary people to comply with his Department's requirements? It is completely unfair.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I do not expect them to do it very quickly.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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That is what I am saying-----

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I do not think they should try to do it too quickly.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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That is why they need seed funding. I would be deeply uncomfortable supporting this motion today without some commitment that, subject to the five year plan being received and a number of corporate management issues being addressed, which I think are well under way at this stage, the Minister's Department will provide seed funding and commit to capital funding, subject to those protections. My understanding is that the association is well on the way to addressing the requirements and conditions, which is a miracle to me. The problem is that the Minister is asking us to support a motion that commits funding to a number of related industries and we have no commitments-----

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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To clarify, they are separate issues. The motion is to commit funding and we are allowing the discussion is part of it but they are separate issues.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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Two years ago, this committee was about to not support this motion on this very issue. We are entitled to discuss it. I cannot, in good conscience, support this motion today, and hopefully my colleagues will feel the same, without some assurance that seed funding will be given to this organisation. I appreciate that it can address the recommendations in this report. It wants to meet every recommendation in this report and to comply with all the corporate management and regulatory requirements of the Department. The association wants to do it but needs financial assistance. It is only fair-----

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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To clarify the situation, our role here is to consider the draft regulations before us. The committee does not have the power to approve or amend them. That is just to clarify where we are. We have had a good discussion and I think we are all on the same page. I gather that the Minister supports the Irish Harness Racing Association. While I do not want to get bogged down on the matter, I ask the Minister to give his final reply.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I am anxious to work with the Irish Harness Racing Association. I acknowledge the commitment to this among committee members. We did not delay but bear in mind that Indecon clearly states the funding the Senator is asking me to commit to the association is not something that I should offer as an inducement to comply with the Indecon recommendations. The report states that the funding the Senator is asking me to commit is conditional on the association meeting the recommendations. As a signal of good faith, we are committing in the region of €50,000 to the Irish Harness Racing Association for 2018 as a continuation and expansion of the pilot project. It is a prerequisite that the other five critical recommendations in the report are complied with before we could countenance seed funding but we are, as a signal of good faith, committing in the region of €50,000 to an expansion of the pilot project.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Sinn Fein)
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If this had been published in a reasonable timeframe, not five months, the association would have had a couple of months to put itself in a position to avail of funding under budget 2018. This is immensely unfair to it because it was not given any time whatsoever. This was published after the budget and the association was given no opportunity. I think every member here is convinced that if the association had been given the opportunity and a reasonable timeframe, it would have complied with the Minister's Department's requirements and the requirements of this report, and it would have been able to avail of the funding it needs in 2018.

I ask the Minister to intervene because the association is left blowing in the wind due to a delay by the Minister's Department in publishing the report. The association needs a significant Government commitment on paper for it to draw down the other international funding to survive moving forward. The association is on very thin ice through no fault of its own and despite everything it has done. The Minister should own this and his Department should have published the report long ago, not after the budget, five months after receiving it.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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What we are offering to the Irish Harness Racing Association is not just the potential access, pending compliance with the Indecon report, to the immediate seed capital requirement of €770,000. The Indecon report provides for the potential of a long-term strategic relationship between the Department and Irish Harness Racing Association. It is my personal belief that if the report had been published the day after we received it, any serious five-year strategic plan for the sector would have taken approximately that length of time to put together the appropriate documentation that we require to convince us that this is an organisation with which we can have a long-term strategic relationship. It cannot be written in a week or three weeks and it slightly worries me that there is now a headlong rush to say that we can do it in a condensed and short period of time without having the appropriate reflection or the level of professional input into compiling a five-year strategic plan for the industry, which is a serious document and not something that can be magically made in weeks. That is a strategic document that will take months to compile.

What we are offering here is the opportunity to engage with us because we can see that a public good can flow from this. We want to have that relationship with them.

There was no attempt to withhold the publication for any type of devious motivation. I genuinely urge the members and the harness racing association to view this document as the beginning. It is the first chapter of what can be a long relationship with the Department, one that would be mutually beneficial. One will not compile a five-year strategic plan in the period of time since that publication. It would be a challenge to do it in the number of months that have passed since the Department got the report. That is the type of document we are examining. It is a serious piece of work. If it is done properly it will lay a very solid foundation on which to build and to get to a point where we can replicate the potential that this industry is achieving in other jurisdictions, particularly in France. However, it is necessary to make haste slowly and to do it right. I have every confidence, given the enthusiasm of the people I have met and their business acumen, that they know a five-year strategic plan is not something that can be magicked up in a short space of time. What we are discussing here is the chance to open up a meaningful relationship. My officials and I are open to working with them in that context.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We will be engaging with representatives of the Irish Harness Racing Association early in the new year. Can I get a commitment from the officials that they will be able to engage with us and them as we move forward next year?

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, of course.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Okay. Is the Minister finished on that matter?

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I believe I have covered everything.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Are there any other matters?

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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The issue of integrity in greyhound racing was raised. This issue hit the public airwaves again recently. I will preface my comments by pointing out that it is not useful to dwell on an individual case. We have an interest in ensuring integrity. That is at the core of the legislation we are discussing. There are issues around what appropriate levels of drug residue should be in the public domain where it has an adverse or beneficial impact on performance. Those are issues for professional, competent officials. My overwhelming objective is to ensure that the proper legislative framework is in place to deal with integrity matters. I believe we will have that in the legislation that is imminent.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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My understanding is that the IGB is giving a presentation here on 29 November next. Obviously, all members are welcome and everybody else is invited. It is on integrity and welfare.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I expect it will deal with not just the legislation but also the efforts to date in the context of the existing framework under which it operates.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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In accordance with Standing Orders a message will be sent to the Dáil and Seanad confirming that the committee has completed its consideration of the motions.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Do we have to approve it?

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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We have to agree that we have considered the motion. It is then sent back to the Dáil and Seanad and those Houses can debate it if they so desire.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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We have considered it.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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We might not be happy but we have considered it.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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As I said earlier, our role is to consider it. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank the Minister and the officials for attending the meeting today.