Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The committee is joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, as a permanent witness to this committee, and he is accompanied today by Ms Ruth Foley, the deputy director of audit. No apologies have been received.

I welcome Deputy Pat Deering to the Committee of Public Accounts. Dáil Éireann has approved his appointment to this committee. We welcome him to his first meeting this morning.

Pat Deering (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Chair.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a busy committee. I know that Deputy Deering is the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine as well.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The south east is well represented.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The first items on the agenda are the minutes of the meetings of 12 and 19 October. They are the last two meetings of the committee. Are they agreed? Agreed.

The next item is matters arising that are not on the agenda.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This matter is not on the agenda or under correspondence. It concerns the IDA's recent appearance at the committee. It had been asked for a more detailed note on how it verifies the job creation numbers it presented to this committee. There was some discussion on how the IDA calculates what jobs are created from its clients and how ConnectIreland does it. I have forwarded two notes or forms to the secretariat. It is extraordinary, because what the IDA said when it was before the committee was that 14,000 jobs were created last year. The IDA verifies the jobs by asking the relevant company to fill in a form. The form, which I forwarded to the secretariat, is an annual employment survey. It simply has two boxes. The checks involve making sure that the form was filled in. The form is sent out to companies and the companies respond by saying how many jobs were created. There is no follow-up in terms of linking it with revenue, payroll or PRSI. That can be juxtaposed with the process that ConnectIreland is asked to go through. It has a responsibility to identify how the jobs are created. The company has to prepare a spreadsheet with the name of the employee, employee position, start date and end date. The IDA, at its discretion, can talk to the companies. It can get permission to view payroll reports, bank statements, latest P30s and samples of employee contracts. It is much more robust. It certainly is the case that for ConnectIreland, a very detailed process was in place to prove that the jobs that were created were actually created. However, in the case of the IDA, a straightforward self-assessment letter is sent out and that seems to be the process.

This is important. I am not doubting the figures or saying that the figures that were presented to us were not genuine. However, I am concerned about the process. It is questionable whether the figure presented to us can be independently verified. These are figures which guide policy. Perhaps we should wait until the detailed note comes back from the IDA, but it appears that there are double standards here in terms of how the IDA requests ConnectIreland to verify its jobs while having a much simpler process itself.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand and completely appreciate what the Deputy has said. I received a similar copy of that correspondence yesterday but it has not been circulated to the committee as it arrived too late. However, we have written to the IDA directly on this topic, following on from the earlier correspondence from ConnectIreland. We want a detailed response on that, and we will forward this documentation to it as well. It will be circulated to the members of the committee shortly. The question that arises is what happens when the questionnaires are not returned. What figure does the IDA take in that instance? I am very interested in the questionnaires that are not signed by the companies and returned. We want to check the verification, but when forms do not come back, we want to know how the IDA comes up with a number. I am sure it has some mechanism to count the jobs in particular companies. We will add that to our list of questions for the IDA. I have no doubt that we will have a detailed discussion when we receive the reply from the IDA and will proceed from there. We will ask the secretariat to encourage the IDA to respond as promptly as possible.

That arises out the minutes-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

While it might be better to raise this issue when discussing the work programme, will we deal with the issues that arose around the Eversheds memo and the legal advice received now?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As it is in the work programme, we definitely will come to it.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Chair.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will move on to correspondence. Correspondence No. 830A is a briefing document from the HSE from today’s meeting. We will note and publish that.

The next item is No. 842A, an opening statement and supporting document from the HSE. We will note and publish that.

Correspondence No. 845A of 25 October 2017 from Ray Mitchell of the HSE has information regarding internal audit reports as requested by the committee in advance of today’s meeting. That was circulated to us yesterday and is on the screen. Any member who wants the secretariat to circulate a copy should let it know. Are members of the committee comfortable with that? We received it yesterday but there was a lot of information on the chart. We will note and publish that.

Correspondence No. 847A is an email from the HSE that arrived this morning and is on the screens. Is it possible to circulate a hard copy of this?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It has been circulated.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Everyone has received it except the Chairman.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Chairman is not that important.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Obviously. I know my place.

I will read this out because it relates to today's issue in respect of Grace. It is from Ray Mitchell of the HSE and states "Just to advise that given the range of issues re Deloitte, the [director general] will give a short opening statement this morning". We are allocating a maximum of one hour to Grace, because we are dealing with the rest of our business in respect of section 38 and 39 organisations. He writes, of his opening statement, "Given the time constraints I will bring along copies for the members this morning" and then writes "In relation to the request for a copy of the 15 page draft report produced in May 2017 and sent to [Waterford Intellectual Disability Association], Deloitte have corresponded with us as follows". This refers to Deloitte's correspondence with the HSE, which reads:

The [Public Accounts Committee] has not asked Deloitte for access to the draft report. If such a request came, we would consider the request, but it is not normal to provide access to anything other than our final report.

We had a discussion in private session during the week about the draft report and the changes in the final version. We wrote to the HSE for a copy of the draft report it has, as the executive is our point of contact. It appears to me that the HSE seems happy enough that we write directly to Deloitte for a copy of that report. I thought that asking the HSE to provide it was the simplest way but it is saying that it has contacted Deloitte and that Deloitte will consider it. We will write to Deloitte and will confirm it with the director general of the HSE this morning.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that actually what it says?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Maybe it is not.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Language is very important. We are told that, "We will consider the request". It then goes on to say that it does normally provide anything other than the final report. The HSE is telling us to write to Deloitte, which will then come back and state it does not normally provide anything other than the final report. We will have to go through a process.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is clearly what it says. That would be the normal process. They are quoting what I would consider standard procedure. They would not normally issue draft reports, especially to third parties. We are saying that this is not normal, the Oireachtas has taken a serious view and the Oireachtas has set up a committee of investigation. No doubt it will have to be produced, one way or another, in due course in any event, and this is not normal. An Oireachtas commission is not a normal commercial report that would be presented to a client. We will highlight in the letter that we understand normal procedure but this is not such. Are we happy with that?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I just think it is couched.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We understand the standard response but we will say this is not a standard request. We can raise that briefly with Mr. Tony O'Brien when he comes in shortly. Is that okay?

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Like my colleague here, I do not understand that. This report belongs to the health executive.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The HSE.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I had a quick look at the terms of reference. It is normal, due to client confidentiality, when they are commissioned by the HSE to produce a report that it cannot be used by anybody other than those who commissioned it or those specifically for whom it was intended. When this report was being commissioned, it was not intended that it would be given to the Committee of Public Accounts and there will have to be agreement between the HSE and Deloitte. Both would have to consent to it, but it should be borne in mind that the HSE commissioned it and Deloitte was its adviser.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Not wishing to dwell on it, it seems that a game is being played in a sense. We discussed whether we could go back to the service provider and the whistleblower to get it and we felt that would not be fair. If it is owned by the health executive, surely it can release it or we can go back to the service provider which has a copy of it and simply get it.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Tony O'Brien is here. We will ask him to confirm that he is happy for us to get the report. Maybe we will ask him to get it directly and for him to provide it. That was our first port of call. He is now saying to write to Deloitte but we will short-circuit that process when he is here in public session.

The next item of correspondence is No. 819B, correspondence dated 20 October 2017 from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform confirming that the Department is awaiting information from the Department of Education and Skills on the committee's request for information regarding the terms and conditions of employment of certain State employees. Deputy Kelly mentioned this in passing the other day. We have received further correspondence. Something came in late last night and we have not had time to put it up on the system and circulate it. The members will get the more substantive reply after the meeting. We just have not had a chance. It came in very late last night and it has not been circulated. We will get it circulated as quickly as possible and it will be on the agenda for the next meeting because it will be listed as an item of correspondence received after today's meeting.

The next item is correspondence from or relating to private individuals and other organisations. Correspondence item No. 820C (i – ii) is correspondence dated 11 October 2017 from Ms Niamh Larkin, director of audit in the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, updating the committee on correspondence regarding Meath County Council. A matter relating to the legal status of certain companies that have contracts with Meath County Council had been raised by an individual and this was referred by the previous committee to the Department in January 2016. The letter advises that the local government auditor for Meath County Council met the correspondent in July 2016 and has corresponded with him a number of times from January 2016 to date. She advised the correspondent in July 2016 that his correspondence did not fall within the definition of an objection, and on 14 July 2017 she confirmed to the correspondent that it was not intended to take any further action. A copy of the correspondence to the individual is attached. I propose we note that. It has been looked at locally by the local government audit. I propose we note it and move on because Meath County Council is not within the remit of this committee.

The next item is correspondence item No. 821C (i – ii), dated 17 October 2017, from Ms Patricia Quinn, managing director, Benefacts, enclosing information for the committee about the database of Irish non-profits comprising extensive governance, regulatory and financial data and analysis. This will be of interest to members. I think it has been circulated to all members of the Oireachtas.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have some questions to ask about this organisation, what it does and how it does its work. I presume it comes under the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is funded by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it directly answerable to us?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

No. It is not a State body. It is a company. As I understand it, it is a not-for-profit company.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is what I understand as well. Would any questions we would have about its operations and funding have to be as part of our questioning of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform here?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is correct.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We can write to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform in the meantime. We do not have to wait for the Department to come in if we have particular queries.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I might liaise with the clerk to the committee.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If we are going to take it up with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, we will clear it up inside in the committee.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We should bring in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, even if only for an hour or two, in relation to this organisation. I would like to get to the bottom of a lot of questions about what it does and how it does it.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It appears that the organisation's representatives have written to us of their own volition.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will revive the Chairman's memory on this. They wrote to the committee primarily because I raised the issue of the organisation in this forum.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. We will correspond with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform after the next meeting.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We can put it in for some future date.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely. We will include that in the work programme. We are agreed that Deputy Kelly will send information to the secretariat.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would just like to get to the bottom of what it does, how it does it-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the work programme next week, we will see how we will proceed with it.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and how it is operating.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That will be included for discussion as part of the work programme at the next meeting. The next item is correspondence No. 826C, dated 10 October 2017, from Professor Gerry Boyle, director of Teagasc, which provides procurement information requested by the committee relating to the Teagasc financial statements for 2016. There were four services mentioned as being non-competitive and Teagasc outlines actions which have been taken to deal with these. We have put that letter up on the screen. Would the Comptroller and Auditor General comment on that because those are the financial statements? He highlighted issues and the committee wrote to Teagasc.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is correct.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that a good outcome?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I do not have any issues with the information provided. I am in agreement.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Then we will note and publish that letter from Teagasc. Okay. The next item is correspondence, dated 19 October 2017, from Mr. Aidan O'Driscoll, Secretary General, Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, providing information as requested by the committee on the foal levy and impediments to basing the levy on the actual amount paid by the breeder rather than a standard nomination fee. I have not had an opportunity to study this. This has come before us on three or four occasions. I propose we hold over consideration of this until the next meeting. Is that agreed? Agreed. I will list it for correspondence the next day when we have had time to consider it.

The next item is correspondence No. 828C, dated 18 October 2017, from Deputy Mary Lou MacDonald, forwarding correspondence from a nursing home in County Dublin. The correspondent appears to feel that they have been treated unfairly by both the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, and the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF. The Deputy will understand it is not the job of the Committee of Public Accounts to intervene in the individual case.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate that.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will ask the Deputy to speak.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This correspondence came to me, and not only as a Member of the Oireachtas. It was clear from the correspondence that it was intended for this committee and I have forwarded it on. It is the case that it is not our business to start delving into the individual circumstances and disputes that may have arisen between any nursing home and HIQA or any other agency. I need a bit of guidance here in terms of how we respond to this because it seems there is at least one more general issue regarding regulation that is raised by this correspondence. It refers to the chief inspector of social services, Ms Dunnion, who has been before the committee. This position is answerable to the Oireachtas, not to the board, and we have a particular responsibility to examine what exactly is going on here. The lengthy correspondence refers to the part-time discharge of this function.

Others may be sharing, or presenting themselves, rightly or wrongly, as inspectors or assistant inspectors. I need a bit of help in terms of how we advance this correspondence and the concerns that arise, not by becoming a referee in the dispute but by knuckling down on the regulatory issues that arise and how we deal with those.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My initial instinct is that we should progress the matter, but I would not want the independent inspector to think our involvement was in any way interfering with her statutory independence. I would not want the Committee of Public Accounts to be accused of interfering.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely not.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We all agree to put that on the record. We are seeking information. That is the only caveat.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I read the correspondence and it raises a whole pile of questions. It is very interesting. I feel that some of the issues that have been raised in the correspondence are likely to be raised by others, and as a consequence we have to get to some format. I accept what the Chairman has said on the caveat of ensuring the inspector is independent. We also have to find some vehicle to be able to get to the bottom of the four or five issues of deep concern that are in this correspondence. We need a methodology for doing this, perhaps through the Department of Health.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What I suggest, because we have the documentation and there are 100 points raised and perhaps not everybody has had an opportunity, is that maybe with the assistance of the secretariat for the next meeting we actually come back with-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A proper way forward.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----how we will act. I would not like to do it on the hoof.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just so that we are absolutely clear, I am more than happy with that because we need to deliberate on how we advance that. I do not take from the intention of the correspondence, and it certainly was not my intention in forwarding it, to trespass in any way-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----on anybody's statutory independence.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are all agreed on that.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are all agreed.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, absolutely.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before the next meeting, could we ask for clarification on the chief inspector's role? I was foolish when the chief inspector was here and I presumed there was just one. Could we have clarified how many inspectors there are, who functions as a chief inspector, when it is delegated and how it is delegated? I will not name anybody, but various names appear here who acted as the main inspector. What is the process for that? We did not ask that question on the day. We were limited for time, and I just presumed.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Immediately-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are they full-time roles? Is the chief inspector a full-time role? If not, what other roles does that person have? How are the delegated roles delegated? Under which legislation does this happen? Do they also play other roles?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We can write to the Department of Health, which drafted the legislation, for a detailed information briefing note. We can do this over the next ten days before we come back because we are not sitting next week. That is the first point of call. The second is that we write to HIQA. It must have some criteria on how the inspectors operate.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is under legislation. The chief inspector-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Department of Health.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

HIQA as well, and very much so.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will write to both.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is simply factual, just to clarify the role-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The factual position.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and how it is delegated. I have said it and I will not repeat it.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will write to the Department for the information. We are only seeking information.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Chairman action that now?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And then give a broader consideration to the correspondence.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will ask that we have it within ten days, such that we have it in advance of the next meeting. The next item of correspondence is No. 829C, dated 19 October 2017, informing us of the motion passed by the Oireachtas on Deputy Pat Deering's membership of the committee. We have already welcomed Deputy Deering.

Correspondence item No. 831C, dated 17 October 2017, is from Ms Jennifer D’Arcy, chairperson of Louth and Meath Education and Training Board, providing a note as requested by the committee in relation to the 2015 and 2016 financial accounts, which have not yet been completed, although I understand progress is being made on this matter. I propose that we write to the ETB stating it is our expectation that the 2017 accounts will be completed within six months of the end of 2017. Does the Comptroller and Auditor General have any comment to make on this? Does he agree with it?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I certainly would agree with the ambition that the 2017 accounts would be completed as speedily as that, but we still do not have the 2016 accounts. We expect to have them resubmitted to the office in October. It will be the early part of next year before we have the 2016 accounts. There is a difficulty there, and the chairperson does acknowledge this, but we are working as quickly as possible with the ETB to get the 2015 accounts first and we expect to have them by the end of the year.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the Comptroller and Auditor General working on the 2015 accounts?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

We are working on those.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Comptroller and Auditor General explain to the committee what he has just said? He has asked the ETB to resubmit the accounts. Were they rejected? Did he send the 2016 accounts back to it?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

They were not satisfactory.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What the ETB presented was not satisfactory for audit so the Controller and Auditor General sent the accounts back and told the ETB to present them properly. How long does he expect this will take?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

We expect to get the resubmitted accounts by the end of this month.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Right.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

We will then get on with the audit as soon as possible. Now it is looking like it will probably be the new year before we will be able to start.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is fine. Once the accounts are with the Comptroller and Auditor General, that is the first hurdle.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That is the first and most important step.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When is its year end? Is it the calendar year?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is the calendar year for all the ETBs.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are still adamant that its 2017 accounts be presented for audit before the end of June 2018.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Statutorily it is obliged----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

By law.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

-----to present them for audit by the end of March.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The end of March?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It has missed that.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It has missed it for 2015 and 2016. We hope it will move towards-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will write to it, more in hope, reminding it of its legal obligations and insisting it meets its legal obligations. We will actually say in the letter that we will pencil in a meeting for early April if the accounts have not been presented to the Comptroller and Auditor General. If it does not meet its 31 March deadline, it will be in here in April to answer why it missed the deadline. Can we get agreement on that? Agreed.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Obviously there are significant issues. The accounts for one year cannot be concluded if the accounts for the year before have not been done. In terms of the statutory responsibility, what is the sanction for not fulfilling this? Being called in front of the Committee of Public Accounts is one thing, but what is the sanction for not having the accounts if it is a statutory responsibility?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There is no statutory sanction.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are it.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The buck stops here.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We hear everywhere that regulators do not regulate. We are actually the regulator of this group. We are the regulator for any organisation with a statutory duty to report to the Oireachtas and be audited by us, and we should not fail in our duty.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are held to ransom by virtue of the fact there is not something to present here, because what has been presented to the Comptroller and Auditor General is not satisfactory, but is there an issue in that the same practice that has led to the difficulty will continue into the following year if we cannot hold the organisation accountable in a timely way?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

In a way, the reason I undertook the special report on the timeliness of the presentation of the financial statements was exactly that. I was concerned, particularly in the education sector, that there was a drift and no way of accelerating it. It is almost too late by the time it gets here and the committee identifies that there is a problem. I needed a vehicle to get it on the agenda. The fact that I produced the first report and the committee took it so seriously has resulted in a speeding up of the process. I have another report on the 2015 accounts, which is ready for publication. I have asked whether publication can be expedited in order that it is published before the education and training boards are due to come before the committee in November. That will allow the committee to have a look at the overall timeliness of that particular sector because there has been a problem, and also the third level sector, which the committee dealt with in April and May of this year. I anticipate we will do a further report on the timeliness of the presentation of the 2016 accounts. This means the committee will get the big picture rather than looking at individual ones, and that is important.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is one of the reasons we will look at this sector and we will have a separate meeting on that. We will not fall back on our duties on this.

Three months is the statutory deadline for the 2017 accounts and they will be brought before the committee in early April if they have not complied with the statutory position.

No. 834 is correspondence dated 23 October from an individual enclosing a letter from the IMPACT trade union regarding the PRSI classification of staff who transferred to Coillte from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The correspondence states that an appeal by Coillte to a decision of the Department of Social Protection will have an adverse effect on the State in respect of pension provision for the staff in question. I propose to request an information note from the Department in the first instance. We will study the note when we receive it. As members will have noted, we have not disposed of three or four items of correspondence and will return to them instead.

Nos. 836C and 838C are items of correspondence from Deputies Alan Kelly and Mary Lou McDonald, respectively, related to the committee's upcoming engagement with the education and training boards. We will deal with this issue in a moment when we discuss the work programme.

The next item is two accounts and statements received since the previous meeting. These are shown on the screen and are clear audit reports for the Law Reform Commission and Institute of Public Administration.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We should give them a bualadh bos.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The next item is the work programme. The issue the committee must discuss is how we will structure our meeting with representatives of the education and training boards, ETBs, on 16 November. We agreed at a previous meeting to invite representatives of the City of Dublin Education and Training Board, CDETB, given its size and scale. The secretariat has proposed having representatives of the Department of Education and Skills and SOLAS, the funders of the ETBs, attend the first session together. I would like everyone to be present for the full meeting. In other words, I want the chairmen and chief executives of the two education and training boards to be present for the session with the Department and SOLAS. Further, I would like all representatives of the education and training boards to hear what is being said about all the individual ETBs. I do not want anyone coming or going at the meeting. I want all the groups to be fully aware of what is being said, although we will provide time for different sections. We do not want to take a silo approach. We want everyone present throughout. We will start the meeting with an information session with the Department and SOLAS. We suggest that representatives of the City of Dublin Education and Training Board be invited to the second session. While the CDETB separately administers the SUSI grant scheme, we should not mix up issues by discussing the grant scheme. It is a completely different issue.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a whole different animal.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will discuss the education and training board functions in Dublin. The rationale for inviting representatives of Kilkenny and Carlow, Limerick and Clare and Mayo education and training boards is that some of them have been performing poorly with regard to their accounts and we want to bring in some of the tardy boards. However, I also asked the secretariat to choose the best education and training board and Kilkenny and Carlow Education and Training Board seems to be doing its business properly. If it can do things right, why can the rest of them not do things right too? We want to pick out some elements of good practice and tell the other boards they do not have any excuses because their counterparts elsewhere are doing things right. We want to have a contrast. Rather than bringing in the bottom half of the class, to use an educational term, we are bringing in examples of good practice. In addition to having representatives of Kilkenny and Carlow Education and Training Board, we should bring in representatives of one of the other education and training boards to which I referred. Deputy Kelly favours having representatives of Tipperary Education and Training Board come to the meeting, while Deputy McDonald favours having representatives of Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board come before us. I ask the Deputies to explain the rationale for their position and we will talk it through.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My rationale is that information I have sought regarding Tipperary Education and Training Board from the Department in parliamentary questions over the past month has not been provided. I have been engaging with the Secretary General of the Department to get better answers because many of them were not acceptable. My first request for information related to multiple issues, including the locations of offices, savings, interactions with SOLAS, staff mobility, the headquarters of work, the process for securing employment, the process for spending certain allocations and spending of own resources versus SOLAS expenditure. I asked a range of questions, all of which are in the public domain.

The second issue was related to Education and Training Boards Ireland, ETBI, which is a very interesting entity. Is it an organisation or representative body and, if it is neither, what is it?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

ETBI is not funded.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know what it is. I am being a little-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

May I make a point about ETBI?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The staff of ETBI are on the payroll of certain education and training boards. For instance, I think the secretary general of ETBI is a staff member of Kilkenny and Carlow Education and Training Board seconded to ETBI. It is a system that is used in the Department to create, if one likes, national functions, but they are distributed and paid for by the line entities. For instance, internal audit for ETBs is located in a number of the ETBs as well. It is something that is worth pursuing with the Department as to what are these national functions that are run through local organisations. If Kilkenny and Carlow Education and Training Board has a staff member who is employed in ETBI in a senior position, maybe the committee could suggest that he or she be brought along to contribute. As well as that, the non-pay costs of ETBI are paid from contributions from the individual ETBs.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the issue I was about to raise. Basically, the non-pay side of the ETBI is funded through contributions from the individual ETBs.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, not from the Department.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That means the ETBs must provide funding to make that happen. On the basis of what the Comptroller and Auditor General said, it is up to the committee as to how it responds to my second request. The Department will probably be able to answer questions on ETBI but I insist that we bring in representatives of Tipperary Education and Training Board.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy McDonald wishes to bring in representatives of Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The committee received and discussed correspondence specifically related to Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board, not least from my colleague, Deputy John Brady. I return to the Chairman's remark that we are "it" when it comes to regulation.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Oversight.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think the term used was "regulation" but I will not quibble with the Chairman over that. While I understand the idea of benchmarking best practice and giving a bualadh bos to Kilkenny and Carlow Education and Training Board which appears to be doing things right, I am not sure it is the most useful investment of our time because ultimately the committee is an accountability platform. While acknowledging good things, good practice and successes, we are it, as the Chairman correctly stated, when it comes to malpractice. I understand Mr. Sean Ashe, the chief executive officer of Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board, is planning to retire. Given what has happened a million times previously, I am anxious, when we pursue lines of questioning about the internal procedures of an organisation or entity, that we will not be told, "I do not know about that because I was not there." I do not want us to walk slam dunk into that scenario again. I am aware that the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Bruton, has appointed someone to carry out an investigation. This should not preclude us from inviting the chairman and chief executive officer of Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board to present themselves to the committee.

It would be odd, to say the least, if we have Kilkenny and Carlow ETB in this module, which seem to have done things very right, while we do not have those organisations that seem to have issues that we need to examine, which is a matter of public commentary and anxiety now.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree with much of that. A letter was to issue from the Committee of Public Accounts in recent weeks to the Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board, ETB, for the attention of all members of the board rather than the chairman. I talked to a board member who has not been made aware of it but board members are not being made aware of many things and it is being very controlled.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did we agree that it would go to all members?

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We did. I remember the Chairman, in particular, saying that-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Board members do not know that this is going on.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----this is to go to all members. Contacting the chair in a controlling environment is not necessarily always going to give us the answers. Public funding is involved in Education and Training Boards Ireland, ETBI. The CEO of Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board just last week attended a conference in Abu Dhabi that was sponsored by ETBI. I am fascinated about where the money comes from to do that kind of thing. There is undoubtedly an issue. It is important that if Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board comes in, we are all circulated with the 2010 report beforehand because we need to know the history as much as the current issue that is under investigation. It is also useful to look not just at geographic areas but the number of schools. An area might be small but might have many schools that are under its remit. Why should we deviate from something when we see a clear audit? We are unlikely to ask somebody to come in if there is a clear audit. We bring in those that do not have a clear audit. Why would we deviate from that? I understand the point the Chairman makes about good behaviour.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will sign off on this shortly. We have a duty. We are here for value for money for the taxpayer. I suggest that if we bring in four or five ETBs that have problems, we could take a proactive role and tell ETBs that they need to lift their game. We are not asking them to do anything that is not achievable. It is not to give anyone a bualadh bos. It is to use one ETB to show the others that this is the way they should be doing things. It would be a success if the Committee of Public Accounts can make ETBs improve their situation and show them good practice. I take the view that we examine the practice of everything that goes wrong every day. There is some good practice. Some Government Departments work well. We have seen that Revenue and different Departments are fairly efficient in their statutory duty and we bring them in. We ask if other Departments can be as efficient. I use them as one example off the top of my head. The sole purpose was to say to the ETBs that their sister organisation, in the same position, is doing well and that other ETBs should learn how to do it properly. The only purpose is to show them that this can be done.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand the logic. If we had infinite time, one might consider doing it but it is not a summit on ETBs.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will not allocate too much time to it.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have a particular function.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Maybe we will finish. I would request, as Chairman, to have them here in case, for example, we have three ETBs complaining that it is not possible, so we can say that it is possible. We may substitute Limerick and Clare ETB and Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim ETB for the Tipperary ETB and Kildare and Wicklow ETB. We will go ahead with the Department, SOLAS, City of Dublin Education and Training Board, Kilkenny and Carlow ETB by way of a contrast and also Tipperary ETB and Kildare and Wicklow ETB. I know we were going to have the other two in for matters relating to financial statements but we are dealing with that topic in its own right on an ongoing basis. I understand some people will have reservations if the Department appoints an investigator but I think the view of the committee is that that does not stand us down from doing our work.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely. I could not agree more.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will be conscious of that but it does not stand us down in our role. That is the format.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I will point out one thing with regard to the financial statements that will be available to the committee to examine. There will be 2015 financial statements for City of Dublin ETB, while there will be 2016 statements for Kilkenny and Carlow ETB. I signed those yesterday.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Here we are again. The best City of Dublin ETB has is two year old financial statements.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Kildare and Wicklow ETB has its 2013 and 2014 financial statements-----

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Oh my god.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

-----because we cannot complete the 2015 statements.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand that.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Tipperary ETB will have 2015 statements.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We want each of those, in preparation for their meetings, while they may not have audited accounts, to have up-to-date financial information from their own management accounts so they can answer current questions. It has to be very clear that we will ask current questions. We will write to ETB Ireland and ask for a copy of its most recent financial statements so we have them in our talk with the Department. Let us see ETBI's financial statements and then we will make a judgment call on it at the next meeting when we have those. The Department will possibly be able to answer some of that and there might be specific questions, but let us get the financial statements. They would not normally come to us so we have to go and seek them since it is not under our remit. We have a good idea of where we are going. Where are we now?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Work programme.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are still on the work programme. There is the matter of the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, and Nursing Homes Ireland, NHI. I ask the Vice Chairman to take the Chair since I have to go out for ten minutes. I will resume when I come back.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We spoke in our private meeting recently about an engagement with the National Treatment Purchase Fund and Nursing Homes Ireland. We need to decide on the structure, format and a possible date for this.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Members will recall that we had invited Nursing Homes Ireland to appear last week and it regrettably declined but indicated in its correspondence a willingness to appear. I thought we had agreed that we would take it up on that. I think it was on the suggestion of Deputy Catherine Connolly, if I am not mistaken, that we would write to Nursing Homes Ireland and invite it in. It required some form of clarity on what subjects we might like to address with it. We can and should provide that. Arising from last week's engagement with the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, were issues that arose with regard to the National Treatment Purchase Fund, specifically as it relates to the funding of nursing homes and the fair deal scheme. I thought we agreed that we would issue an invitation for NTPF to attend. The complication that arose was the necessity for clarity on a memo that has come into the possession of the committee and is now a document of the committee as I understand it. It has been circulated to us and forms part of our papers. Clarity was required about the extent to which or whether legal privilege applied to that document. I also understood that we would seek legal clarity, a legal opinion or legal advice on that matter. The three issues are legal advice, then, aside from that, the invitation to Mr. Tadhg Daly and whomsoever he wishes to bring with him from Nursing Homes Ireland, and also the National Treatment Purchase Fund.

A specific issue arose around a meeting that we know occurred and an exchange we had that we focused on. I think we need to finish with that. This work also feeds into a broader piece of the work programme which we have discussed many times, which is a deeper analysis of the fair deal scheme. I think €1.3 billion of public money-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I think the fair deal scheme would involve about €600 million.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Before we go to Deputy Cullinane, I want to ask the Comptroller and Auditor General about the financial statements of the National Treatment Purchase Fund.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The 2016 statements are being reviewed with a view to their completion.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We need the legal clarification that we sought. My question is one that our legal advisers might have to answer to. When Mr. McEnery was here, notwithstanding any restrictions that were on us regarding referencing the official notes that are potentially subject to legal protection, he did strongly contradict what was in that note. Maybe that will play a part in whether or not it has the same legal protections given that he, as one of the people who was at the meeting, clearly contradicts part of what is in it. Second, and this is important, when Mr. McEnery was here he did speak about the meeting so that notwithstanding the notes he did talk about what happened at that meeting. His response to a question as to whether a boycott of the fair deal scheme was discussed was yes, it was, but he was not party to it and did not support it. There were only two parties in the room, himself and Nursing Homes Ireland, so if he did not initiate, support or take part in a discussion on a boycott, and he acknowledges that discussion took place, then Nursing Homes Ireland did. If Nursing Homes Ireland did, that is a very real problem.

In terms of asking them in, they have a duty to come before the committee because this is potentially anti-competitive practice. We have a duty to put questions to them and then they have an obligation to respond to those questions. That is nothing to do with notes of any meetings, that is something that was put on the record of the Committee of Public Accounts by someone who was at the meeting, and told the committee that yes, a boycott was discussed; no, he did not support it; no, he was not part of any discussion on the matter and he was troubled by it but that the discussion did take place.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We need to arrive at a rationale for why we are bringing in Nursing Homes Ireland.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The rationale arose directly from the response given by Mr. Tadhg Daly who said, as Deputy McDonald pointed out, that he could not make it that day. I gather he was open to coming on a different day, subject to clarification of what the committee wanted to ask him. We all agreed that he would be invited in on that basis. I know the committee has a huge workload and the Vice Chairman needs help in clarifying the issues we wish to ask, but the decision that he come in has been made. It is simply a question of writing to him regarding the issues put to him.

On privilege, we need urgent advice on the matter.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have the advice, it is a matter of setting a time for him to come into us.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That will determine how we make decisions. I am very conscious about something being privileged or confidential but this is beyond that now. Mr. McEnery was before the committee as chair of HIQA who attended a meeting about which there is now a dispute. There are serious questions. Mr. McEnery and the HIQA board apparently think there is no conflict of interest. Whether there is or not is a question for the committee. If there is a conflict of interest then one is not in a position to get value for money. To be clear, where we come in is on the conflict of interest.

I fully support Deputy McDonald on the nursing homes. There is a bigger issue here. We are now in a position where more than 80% of our nursing homes are private, without any discussion or looking at the many issues around it. I support that, we need to do it.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I fully agree that we need to do this. We have agreed it already. We need to set the criteria or the question of the areas we will examine. Before we do that, we probably need to see the legal advice. We are not here next week, but early in the week we return, we will set a date for a short briefing here on legal advice. We will take the legal advice on the Tuesday and have the normal meeting the following Thursday at which we will return to the work programme and agree the date to put the meeting in.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I support the Vice Chairman's proposal but is there a reason why the advice cannot be circulated?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The legal advisers do not normally circulate their advices, they prefer to brief in the room.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why is that? Is it because they are privileged advices and anything privileged should not go on a mass email?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I presume so.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. Interesting.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Very interesting.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the Vice Chairman not see what I am getting at?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do. I got it straight away before the Deputy even said it.

Is that agreed?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

If I could make a point coming back to Deputy McDonald about the cost of the fair deal scheme. There is a note, note 12, in the HSE's financial statements, which refers to the cost of long-term residential care and gives an analysis of it. The figure for nursing home support scheme - fair deal private nursing homes only - is €623 million in 2016. The cost of public nursing homes is €333 million. That is a bigger figure than fair deal. Not everyone who is in a nursing home is on the fair deal scheme. That gives a figure of about €950 million, so roughly €1 billion is nursing home support, a subset of which is fair deal.

We are also doing some work around fair deal, particularly looking at costs, costing models and so on. The timeframe for completing that will be longer than the committee is focused on. We will continue with the work we are doing. If matters are dealt with and there is nothing further for us to pursue, I probably will not report on those aspects but if there are other residual aspects that I feel there would be useful to present to the committee in a special report, I will do that in due course.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the committee agreed on the way forward? Agreed.

The committee's work programme is more or less concluded. We will return to it on Thursday week.

If there is no other business we will suspend and allow the witnesses from the HSE to come in.