Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 4 May 2017
Public Accounts Committee
Business of Committee
9:00 am
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, permanent witness to the committee, who is accompanied today by Mr. Mark Brady, deputy director of audit. Before proceeding, I would like to offer the collective condolences of the committee to the Chairman, Deputy Fleming, and his family on the death of his mother. Our thoughts are with them at this time. With the agreement of the committee, I propose that the clerk write to the Deputy on behalf of members expressing our sympathy. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Are the minutes of the meeting of 13 April agreed? Agreed. Are there any matters arising from the minutes?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Will we be dealing with the health board issue later in terms of correspondence?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will be dealing with all correspondence.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Does the Health Service Executive come under the heading of correspondence?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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On the previous presentations from Caranua, under what heading will the outstanding items from it and the university be addressed?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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They will also be addressed under the correspondence heading.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Thank you.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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There are three categories of correspondence for today's meeting. We will deal first with category A correspondence. No. 449A is briefing documents dated 28 April from Bord na gCon in advance of today’s meeting, to be noted and published. Is that agreed? Agreed.
No. 450A (i) to (iv) is briefing documents dated 28 April from the Garda Commissioner's office in advance of today’s meeting, to be noted and published. Is that agreed? Agreed.
No. 452A is opening statements dated 2 May from Dr. Seán Brady, interim chief executive officer, Bord na gCon, to be noted and published. Is that agreed? Agreed. Correspondence, No. 457A, which is the opening statement from the Garda Commissioner, was only received late yesterday afternoon. I hope everybody has had an opportunity to review it.
We will now move to category B correspondence, which is correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers and follow ups to previous meetings. No. 431B (i) and (ii) and 437B are correspondence dated 18 April and 20 April from Professor Don Barry, president of the University of Limerick, providing follow up information subsequent to UL's appearance before the committee regarding sabbaticals and money paid to Revenue, a breakdown of non-Irish students, a note on the number of facilitators employed and on complaints giving rise to reports and-or settlements. Also included are details on gender breakdown among staff. Is it agreed to note and publish this correspondence? Agreed. There are a number of follow-up items in the correspondence today on our engagement with the third level sector. It may be appropriate to set aside some time, possibly on 18 May, to discuss further how the committee might wish to proceed. Given the volume of correspondence, it would take up a good proportion of this meeting if we were to go through it today. Is it agreed to set aside time on 18 May to deal with that correspondence?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Is there a free slot on 18 May?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We are considering leaving the 18 May slot open for discussion of a number of items that we need to address in detail, including any issues not concluded today. Is that agreed?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We would need to put some structure to that meeting. There is a great deal of correspondence to be dealt with but there were key themes that we all had agreed on that need to be addressed.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The clerk and his team will review the matter with a view to providing structure for the meeting on 18 May at next week's meeting.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Can we put forward proposals?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes. As I said, the volume of correspondence we have received will require a significant amount of time to deal with. We should not try to deal piecemeal with it now.
No. 435B (i) to (vii) is correspondence dated 13 April from Professor Patrick O Shea, president of University College Cork providing follow-up information subsequent to UCC’s appearance before the committee. Topics covered include intellectual property policy, acquisition of Irish Management Institute, staff travel costs, student financial supports and legal costs, to be noted and published. Is that agreed? Agreed.
No. 436B (i) to (ii) is correspondence dated 21 April from Ms Ann Campbell, president of Dundalk Institute of Technology, providing follow-up information subsequent to DKIT’s appearance before the committee on gender breakdown among staff, to be noted and published. Is that agreed? Agreed. No. 437B (i) to (ii) is correspondence dated 20 April from Professor Don Barry, president of University of Limerick, providing follow-up Information subsequent to UL’s appearance before the committee on gender breakdown across different parts of the college to be noted and published. Is that agreed? Agreed.
No. 438B (i) to (ii) is correspondence dated 24 AprIl 2017 from Mr. Alan Doyle of the National Treatment Purchase Fund, providing follow-up information to our meeting with the HSE and Department of Health on 9 March 2017. A note is included on the role of the fund, how rates are determined, the appeals process and the dispute resolution process, to be noted and published. Is that agreed? Agreed.
No. 444B is correspondence dated 26 April from Professor Brian Norton, president of Dublin Institute of Technology, providing follow-up information subsequent to DIT’s appearance before the committee on the breakdown between full and part-time staff, losses incurred by DIT on library subscription service, the €3 million paid to BIMM to deliver BA in commercial modern music, a note on gender breakdown and a note on the implications of a two-year delay to the Grangegorman project, to be noted and published. Is that agreed? Agreed.
No. 445B (i) to (xxiii) is correspondence dated 26 April from Professor Willie Donnelly, president of Waterford Institute of Technology, providing follow-up information subsequent to WIT's appearance before the committee on gender breakdown, Company Registration Office files and a report on FeedHenry, to be noted and published. Is that agreed? Agreed.
We now move to category C correspondence from or in relation to private individuals and any other correspondence. No. 426C (i) to (ii) is correspondence dated 18 March 2017 from an individual regarding the best use of public money on social housing and South Dublin County Council. Matters in relation to local authority policy decisions do not fall within the remit of the committee. I propose we write to the individual informing her of this. Is that agreed? Agreed. Members can take note of this and raise it in another forum if they so wish.
No. 428C (i) to (iii) is correspondence from a firm of solicitors dated 12 April about a client who is seeking to address the committee on the Grace commission of inquiry and the standard of her care by the Health Service Executive. While the client maintains that the issues she raises are not covered by the commission of investigation, the terms of reference state that the commission shall exercise discretion in the scope and intensity of the investigation it considers necessary and appropriate. I think, therefore, that the best way of dealing with this, with the correspondent’s permission, is to forward this letter with a note from the committee requesting that commission give consideration to the matters raised. Is that agreed or do members have an alternative proposal?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Am I correct that this is correspondence from one of the whistleblowers?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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She has requested, through her solicitors, that she be allowed to appear before the committee - as a witness.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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She maintains that some of the issues may not be covered under the commission of inquiry. However, as the commission can broaden its investigations, the secretariat believes this matter can be covered by it.
Is that what is being said?
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The issues as I understand them from the correspondence relate to procurement, which strictly may not get the examination they may need under the scope of a commission of investigation. The whistleblowers in this case have been very brave by coming forward. They have done the State and the victims of abuse a service. If they feel they have something to offer the committee, we should show them courtesy of inviting them. All witnesses, in terms of their appearance here, have to be treated the same as anybody else. Whistleblowers have done so much to give us information in the first place that partly led to the commission of investigation. We should afford them the opportunity to come before the committee.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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My understanding is that the whistleblower disputes some of what has been put on record, which could make it easier for us to get the position. One could cross-reference with the HSE. There are leftovers from the previous meeting with the HSE. We would have to make sure to narrow the focus of the meeting but I strongly favour inviting the whistleblower in in that context.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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One of the issues was the funding for the service providers and strong disagreement as to the level of interaction between the HSE at a local or national level and the service providers. There is strong disagreement between the director general of the HSE and the service providers. That is a money issue.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Absolutely. I share the Deputy's concerns.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We have to be careful. I am positive about this but we have to be careful because we have received many letters asking for witnesses to appear before us disputing various issues, particularly about the universities. That should not be the focus of the committee and, therefore, we need to look at a principle in this regard. There are exceptions to every principle and this is a particularly savage case, which would not be captured. We need to examine this specifically. We should wait until we discuss this with Mr. O'Brien because he has to come back to us in respect of the issues that have been mentioned. I raised three issues that have nothing to do with the commission of investigation, including public procurement and freedom of information. We cannot have a situation where a witness comes in and then Mr. O'Brien-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I share the Deputy's concerns. This is delicate.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Let us discuss this with Mr. O'Brien when he comes in and then consider the position of the witness who is seeking to appear.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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There are a few issues. First, if we agree to this person coming in, given the parallel investigation by the commission, the meeting would have to be held in private session. Second, there is a chronology. As Deputy Connolly said, are we better to wait for Mr. O'Brien to come in and then make a decision on whether we bring in this individual afterwards? This is also probably a need for the committee to liaise with the commission on this issue before we make a decision.
Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is in some ways the opposite of what we need. I have no difficulty with a meeting being held in private session. I understand the crossover but if we are going to have the whistleblower in, the information should be provided in advance of Mr. O'Brien coming back in rather than after he has been in.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am waiting for clarification from Mr. O'Brien on those outstanding issues. I thought we were going to get it today. I am reserving my position on a private meeting. I do not know why we would.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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It is our committee and one should have regard to precedent but my understanding of this is this individual wants to come before the committee in public. That is what this person is requesting and that is a matter for us to decide. There are issues that will not be covered by the commission of investigation. The services provider issues, for example, relate to finance and funding and they can, and should be, dealt with by this committee. That is our function and for that reason, if we agree that the whistleblower should come in, it should not be a private meeting. That would be problematic for us and the witness if we agree this.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Presumably, we will have to get legal advice on whether a meeting should be public or private and we will have to take cognisance of that. Will we come back to this issue next week? Perhaps by then we will have correspondence from Mr. O'Brien. That would be helpful. I will ask the clerk to the committee and his staff to liaise with Mr. O'Brien and say that we need it before next week. In that scenario, we would be able to make a more complete decision.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Has Mr. O'Brien not come back to us in the meantime?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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No. It is not in this list of correspondence. There is other correspondence but not in respect of this issue.
The next correspondence is No. 429C, dated 15 April 2017, from an individual entitled "Treason and Betrayal by Public Servants" raising matters in regard to NAMA and the Angela Kerins High Court case. Is it agreed to note the correspondence? Agreed.
Nos. 430C, 433C, 442C(i) and (ii) and 443C(i) and (ii)], dated 11 April, 19 April, 25 April and 26 April, respectively, from Shannon Protection Alliance referring to the Kennedy report on the proposed pipeline from the Shannon to Dublin. This is a proposed project by Irish Water, which I know well, and the matter has been looked at by the Joint Committee on Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government. As it is not within our remit, I propose that the clerk to the committee forward the items to that committee for consideration. Is that agreed? Agreed.
No. 432C, dated 19 April 2017, is from an individual raising issues relating to flood defence in Cork city and the need for a cost-benefit analysis. I propose we forward a copy of the letter with appropriate redaction to the OPW for a response. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Nos. 434C(i) and (ii) are correspondence received from the chairman of NAMA regarding the committee's report on Project Eagle. We need to give this some consideration but as we have a busy agenda today, I propose we hold it over for a week. Is that agreed? Agreed.
No. 439C is correspondence form the Courts Service dated 24 April 2017 requesting a change in our proposed meeting with it which we had scheduled for 15 June. Is it agreed to note this and return to it when we discuss our work programme? Agreed.
No. 440C is correspondence from an individual dated 24 April 2017 in respect of issues at Howth Harbour. We had correspondence on this matter some months ago from the same individual. Though not entirely clear, the matter appears to be under investigation by the Ombudsman and we should probably await the outcome of that. I suggest we note the correspondence and ask the clerk to the committee to make contact with the individual to see if he can get the correspondent to clarify the matter raised. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Nos. 441C(i) to (iii) are correspondence dated 25 April from an individual raising concerns regarding testimony given to the committee when it met Caranua on 13 April. The correspondent raises questions about the powers of Caranua to breach confidentiality by writing to suppliers for receipts in respect of applicants who had received services. The person has written to the committee and made direct contact with Caranua on the matter. It appears Caranua is suspending the practice until independent legal advice is received. I propose that we write to Caranua and ask to be updated on the matter. I also propose we write to the individual who has acted as a concerned citizen in this matter and brought it to our attention. Is that agreed? Agreed
No. 446C is correspondence dated 26 April regarding the use of taxpayers money and the Air Corps. This is noted.
Correspondence items 447C(i) to (ix) dated 6 March from an individual are in respect of an allegation of fraud at Teagasc. This individual has been in contact with the committee before on this matter. The last committee wrote to Teagasc. The clerk is in the process of reviewing the documentation to see if there is anything further that the Committee of Public Accounts might consider, and will revert to the committee next week. We will note the item for the moment.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We have all received correspondence from this person. Is this matter ongoing? Why does it keep coming back up? Why has the question not been answered?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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According to the clerk, this is going back to 2009 and concerns opportunities for promotion. It has been to the rights commission, the Labour Court and a number of other arenas. I think the person is-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Obsessed.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The person has issues that he feels-----
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would it be under our remit to investigate that?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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There is the process of the Labour Court and there is an ombudsman. I think the clerk has spoken to the correspondent on the phone. If there is new evidence based on this correspondence, the clerk will make a decision and come back to us next week. I am sorry - the clerk will make a recommendation. The use of language here is very important.
Correspondence item 448C dated 28 April from the chairman of the company Flow East is in respect of NAMA and the sale of the Savarin portfolio in the Czech Republic. The correspondent has raised a number of further items subsequent to NAMA's response to his initial letter, which we had forwarded to NAMA. I propose that we forward this item to NAMA also for further response to the specific issues raised. Is that agreed? Agreed. The individual also wants to meet the committee but given the work programme, I do not think that will be feasible.
Correspondence item 451C dated 27 April from Deputy David Cullinane, who has just stepped out, is in respect of the practice by boards to refer matters to the Standards in Public Office Commission, SIPO, rather than to make formal complaints. We will note it as the Deputy is not here and we might return to it next week.
Correspondence items 453C and 454C dated 29 April and 2 May from Deputies Alan Kelly and David Cullinane are in respect of witnesses to be invited to our meeting with the Garda Commissioner this afternoon. We will note these.
Correspondence item 455C dated 28 April from Deputy Cullinane is in respect of further questions for the HSE about evidence given to this committee pertaining to the Grace case. Is it agreed to forward these questions to the HSE and to first ask the clerk to look at their phrasing in consultation with the Deputy, who is not here? Agreed.
Correspondence item 456C dated 28 April is from Deputy Cullinane in respect of further questions for NUIG following its appearance before the committee. Is it agreed to forward the questions to NUIG? Agreed.
We will move on to statements and accounts received since the last meeting. I am bringing them up on the screen.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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At what stage can we come back to Caranua and the outstanding items?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will do it in any other business before we go into Bord na gCon. On financial statements and accounts received, there are only four this week. The Gathering Project 2013 is a clear audit opinion; the Dublin Regional Tourism Organisation is a clear audit opinion; and Dublin Institute of Technology is a clear audit opinion, although the audit noted that the institute made payments totalling €3.4 million to 36 suppliers in the year in respect of goods and services that were not subject to competitive public procurement. The National Gallery of Ireland was a clear audit opinion except for non-compliance with financial reporting standard No. 102 in respect of heritage assets. The statement of financial position does not include the cost or value of heritage assets acquired since 1 January 2011. Does the Comptroller and Auditor General want to comment?
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
I simply draw attention to this. There is an expectation that value is put on the balance sheet in respect of any heritage assets that are acquired since 2011. It was a change made in 2011. The National Gallery has not gone along with that on the basis that the bulk of its stock of heritage items is not included on the balance sheet and that, effectively, it is not material relative to the stock. I am just drawing attention to it as it is a technical non-compliance with the accounting standard.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Are there any further comments? We will move on to the work programme, which is coming up on the screen. With regard to the HSE's appearance, the Chairman has suggested that we delay this meeting slightly if possible to deal with 2016 accounts, which are due for publication shortly. We have scheduled 15 June for them and can deal with that matter on the same day. Given the discussion we are going to have next week on the topic we discussed earlier, there are two dates free. We also have to be cognisant that today's meeting is going to be quite comprehensive and long. We may have to come back to one of today's items on one of those dates for an hour or two.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The two issues today are very important. Should we have the two of them in the one day? I know the schedule is tight.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I agree totally.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The second one in the afternoon is very important but we all have to concentrate on the Bord na gCon session as well. It is a bit much for the committee to take on the two of them in the one day.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The clerk has informed me that this was the only day on which each of the organisations could come in. I share the Deputy's view completely. These are two items in which I have taken a huge interest.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We all have.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Today's work schedule is going to be incredibly long and very detailed. These two items are greatly important and difficult. There is a possibility that one or both sessions could overrun. We have votes at 12.45 p.m. It is now 9.40 a.m. We have to keep those other dates free so that we will be able to bring them back in for an hour or two to conclude should we run over time today.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It would not be a problem if there was something we could write off in half an hour or an hour but both these topics need to be investigated. Taxpayers' money is involved and they are serious issues in the media and everywhere.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Both of these issues are very serious and each would take a full day's meeting normally.
Bobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is my point.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We have to proceed as planned today. There is a high possibility that we may not conclude one or both of the items and may have to return to them on one of the two dates that are available. If we do, we do, and that is just it. In fairness, next week we will also be able to deal with the issue we discussed earlier in respect of the Grace case. We will have to fit that in as well if we make a decision to deal with it. Is that in order? Agreed.
We will move on to any other business, and I also have a couple of items I want to talk about in private session. I call Deputy Connolly.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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With all the correspondence that has come in about the universities, it is good that we have decided to examine it next week. There were outstanding items relating to Caranua. I do not know why the responses have not come in. It is very difficult to keep up with what we asked. There was the question of the five reports that it commissioned and the cost of the five reports. That was the first one. There is also a huge issue about rent. They were about to sign an agreement in May with the money coming out of the pool, but I read with absolute horror that it amounts to €0.75 million. The Secretary General of the Department of Education assured us he was going to look at that. Have we heard anything back? Have they gone ahead and signed it? The third issue is the review of Caranua. Where are we at with that? I am overwhelmed with correspondence - I am sure other Deputies are too - from people dissatisfied with the service. I am not happy at all with this and I was certainly not happy with what was said on the day, but that is another day's work. The main issue at the moment is the rent. If they sign a lease for rent, there are huge implications for the fund. The review and the outstanding five - I do not know why the follow-up information was not in the post the next day.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I will ask the clerk to chase up those issues as a matter of priority. All members have received correspondence on the issue.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I propose that the committee does something on the rent issue. The Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills stated he would examine the matter, of which he did not seem to be aware. However, from correspondence I have subsequently received, he must be aware of it because it appears - I do not know what correspondence I am getting - the Department-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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May we-----
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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There is confusion. I would be most unhappy if the Department proceeded to sign a rent agreement.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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I support Deputy Connolly's position.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I also agree with her on this.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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On some of the issues raised, of which Caranua was one, we have Accounting Officers appearing before the committee, members do their job in putting questions, identifying failures in processes and procedures and so forth and the Accounting Officers may agree or disagree with our views. The difficulty outlined in respect of Caranua is one example of where an issue is raised and it appears to be the end of the matter. Should the committee not do a report, even a short one, which provides a synopsis of the issues raised and circulate it to the relevant Accounting Officers and Ministers? It appears that many of the Accounting Officers appear before us for a couple of hours, may or may not be chastised and then go out the door. When we see them again a couple of months later, however, the same issues arise.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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A classic example of this was the appearance a couple of months ago of representatives of Bord na gCon and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine when questions were asked.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We receive a great deal of correspondence on foot of which I ask Departments and agencies to send us information. I am referring to cases where we identify breaches in legislation and financial controls, failures in policy and other issues. While the Accounting Officers do not have to agree with our views on these issues, what does the committee do on foot of these meetings? We do not send a note to Accounting Officers, heads of Department or Ministers. I am not sure we are really-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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-----getting to the nuts and bolts of the matter.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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-----achieving anything.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
The overall accountability cycle starts obviously with an audit or report from me. The committee examines that report and the process was - certainly conventionally - that there would be a report on the hearing. Findings would be expressed by the committee. If there were recommendations of the committee, they would be included in a report which goes to the Dáil. Thereafter, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform would be required to respond to the committee's report. Formerly, that would involve a process where his Department would contact the agency or other Department and get the response and that would be communicated back to the committee in what is called the minute of the Minister.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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How many reports have been done by this committee that have been sent to the Dáil?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Just one, on Project Eagle.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Is that a resource issue? Is it the case that the secretariat simply does not have the resources to do these reports?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The clerk has notified me that the secretariat is seeking to secure further resources.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That matter needs to be prioritised because if that is the process or if it was the practice in the past, we are going through the motions here by holding a large number of meetings and discussions. If, at the end of the process, we do not follow up on the matters discussed, there is a problem.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is a decision on resources awaited from the Oireachtas Commission?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Chair has been pressing this matter and is awaiting a decision.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Is it being pressed with the Oireachtas Commission or Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Oireachtas Commission.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps those of us who have colleagues on the Oireachtas Commission could have a word with them and see if-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I was just about to make the same point.
David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I propose that the committee write to the Oireachtas Commission.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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To sum, Deputy Cullinane has made a good point that there is an issue with resources. The Chairman has been chasing up this matter, on which Deputy MacSharry has made the good suggestion that the committee write to the Oireachtas Commission. I will instruct the clerk to do so in the coming days. Members should also ask colleagues who are members of the Oireachtas Commission to support our request when it arrives on their desks. Is that agreed? Agreed. Once this has been done, we will be able to follow up on the issues that have been raised, which will be helpful to all members.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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On Caranua, what specific-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I am coming to that. On Caranua, Deputy Connolly suggested that we write to the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Skills, particularly on the issue of rent. I agree and we should outline the issues the Deputy raises and seek immediate responses before the meeting next week. We want and must deal with these matters at next week's meeting. We also note that the Secretary General, at our previous meeting with him, indicated he would revert to the committee but has not done so. We need this information in order that we can deal with it. We will also write to Caranua raising a number of issues and ask it for an immediate response.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We specifically asked for information on the cost of four or five reports.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will document all of these matters and request that all the information is provided to us prior to next week's meeting.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Can we share our concern in respect of rent that we do not want a lease signed?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Is that agreed? Agreed. We will make that point in the correspondence because we are not satisfied.
In two weeks, we will deal with all the issues related to the third level colleges. Our discussions with the colleges have left a major legacy which we are due to address in two weeks. Based on the decision we make next week following correspondence and discussion, we will deal with the issue that has arisen in respect of the whistleblower in the case of Grace. We will also have follow-up issues arising from the correspondence with Caranua by next week. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I understand NUIG responded to the committee. It appears it did.
Marc MacSharry (Sligo-Leitrim, Fianna Fail)
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Following the appearance of representatives of the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government at which a number of members raised issues connected with a particular transaction as a case in point, I requested of the Secretary General that the local authority audit committee carry out an audit of the transaction in question. When I asked him if he could instruct the head of the audit committee, whose name I cannot remember off-hand, to do this he stated he could not issue an instruction but could request that the committee audit this particular transaction. I ask that we check whether the Secretary General has made this request and, if so, what response he has received and whether the transaction will be audited.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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We will write to the Secretary General on the issue. I suggest we discuss a couple of issues in private session before calling the witnesses.