John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I invite the Minister to give his opening statement.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I am joined by my colleague, Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, and officials from my Department. I am pleased to have the opportunity to present the 2016 Estimates for my Department’s group of Votes. The group comprises a significant number of Votes and is as follows: the Vote for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, the Vote for the Office of Government Procurement and the Vote for the National Shared Services Office; the Votes for a number of offices under the aegis of my Department – the State Laboratory, the Public Appointments Service and the Office of the Ombudsman; and (iii) the Votes for superannuation and retired allowances, which covers Civil Service pensions, and for the Secret Service.

The Vote for the remaining element of the public expenditure and reform, PER, group, that is for the Office of Public Works, was dealt with by the committee this morning. The structure of the PER Vote remains unchanged in 2016 from last year, with two strategic programmes focused on public expenditure and sectoral policy and public service management and reform. The requested resources for each programme, in terms of staffing and funding, are set out in part III of the Estimate.

As regards the first of these programmes, the objective of which is to manage public expenditure at more sustainable levels in a planned, rational and balanced manner in support of Ireland’s economic performance and social progress, the committee will be aware of the timetable envisaged by the Government in regard to the 2017 Estimates process, including the forthcoming national economic dialogue, the summer statement and the process of arriving at the various components of budget 2017 due in October.

The 3% increase in gross spend on this Vote to bring total gross allocation to €45.9 million is required primarily in the second programme of my Department – public service management and reform, which has as its objective “to formulate and promote policies which drive efficiency, effectiveness and reform across the public service”. The additional allocation is largely related to the provision for investment in a resilient and robust technical platform on which to deliver build-to-share applications and Government cloud services as part of the remit of the Office of Government Chief Information Officer. Provision is also made for funding of the Civil Service learning and development shared services project, which will deliver a shared model of learning and development across the Civil Service.

In the above regard, I emphasise that public service reform has been, and will continue to be, an essential element of how we respond to the challenges and opportunities in building for our future. The public service reform plan 2014-2016 has a strong focus on service improvement and the delivery of improved outcomes for service users. Substantial progress has been made across a range of areas in terms of reducing costs, delivering better value for money and improving services. A comprehensive progress report on the implementation of the Public Service Reform Plan 2014-16 was published in April.

A Civil Service Renewal Plan was published in October 2014 and the implementation of this ambitious three year plan is leading to major changes right across Departments and Government offices. The plan provides a framework to deliver a more unified, responsive, professional and open and accountable Civil Service, with the aim of providing a world-class service to the State. It is supporting the future development of the Civil Service so that it has the capacity and capability to meet demands. Significant progress has been made. However, we must build on this progress and maintain a focus on public reform over the coming years. It is essential that as we move forward to recruit more people into the public services, plans for which are under way, this runs in tandem with further continuing efforts to reform how we deliver public services. Recruitment and reform must continue to go hand in hand. In addition to overseeing the final phase of the implementation of the current reform plan I have asked my Department to initiate the development of the next phase of public service reform.

In tandem with the developments which I have just outlined, the reform and delivery office, RDO, within my Department is overseeing and driving the reform programme across the civil and public services. It is, of course, often necessary to invest in the short term to facilitate change and savings in the medium term. For this reason, the RDO has been allocated €1.4 million in 2016 from the reform agenda fund. It has been used to fund the following - conduct the Civil Service customer satisfaction survey; complete the next phase of implementation of the Civil Service renewal plan; publish the first datasets on the non-profit sector on the benefacts website; and support the delivery of service improvements through alternative and innovative delivery models. My Department will use these resources to continue to work with all Departments and offices.

I will now turn to the issue of public service pay. From 2009 to 2013 the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Acts, FEMPI, introduced pay reduction measures. These measures, together with the public service pension reduction, PSPR, are estimated to have resulted in over €2.2 billion in direct reductions in public service remuneration and pensions annually. Any sudden elimination of the FEMPI measures is not feasible.

The Government has, through the negotiation and agreement of a financially prudent public service agreement on pay and related issues, provided for a gradual unwinding of the FEMPI measures as they apply to public servants. The terms of this agreement, the Lansdowne Road agreement, were accepted by the vast majority of public servants and are being implemented under the FEMPI 2015 Act with effect from 1 January 2016 at a full year cost of €844 million by 2018. Additional provision has also been made for the amelioration of the PSPR for public service pensioners at an additional full year cost of €90 million in 2018.

The programme for Government contains a strong commitment to the Lansdowne Road agreement. It is the best way forward to meet the needs of those who work in our public service and of those who depend upon them. In addition to progress in public service reform, we have been pursuing a wide-ranging reform programme aimed at delivering open, accountable and ethical government underpinned by a transparent, efficient and effective public system to help rebuild trust in Government and in the institutions of the State. Progress made includes the commencement of the Regulation of Lobbying Act 2015 on 1 September 2015. There are more than 1,300 organisations and individuals who have registered, and just over 4,500 returns have been submitted to the register. A substantial review of the effectiveness and efficiency of Ireland’s current ethics framework has been undertaken, including consideration of the recommendations of the Mahon and Moriarty tribunals and other relevant recommendations, as well as international best practice. I expect to publish a draft scheme of a Bill later this year, following the approval by the Government. My Department is drafting the Data Sharing and Governance Bill on the basis of heads agreed by Government in July 2015. The aim of this legislation is to simplify the legal basis for data-sharing between public service bodies while delivering stronger governance arrangements to protect the rights of individuals. In November 2015, the Department published the corporate governance standard for the Civil Service. This followed from a commitment in the Civil Service renewal plan to strengthen corporate governance in the Civil Service in line with international best practice. Departments and offices are required to develop their governance frameworks in line with the standard which requires them for the first time to document and publish their governance arrangements, the core elements of which are identified in the standard. These frameworks, which have now been published, set out how each Department and office does its work. In addition, my Department is leading on Ireland’s open data initiative, which forms a core element of the Office of Government Procurement’s national action plan. That office is an important element of Government’s overall reform programme and is tasked with delivering increased value for money, more accurate and timely data, and improving the capacity and capability of procurement across the public service. The net funding allocation for the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, in 2016 is estimated at €19.982 million, compared to €18.974 million in 2015. A portion of this funding reflects budget transfers from the national public procurement policy unit and national procurement service, functions that previously resided in my Department’s Vote and in the Vote of the Office of Public Works.

The office continues to lead the implementation of the programme for procurement reform. In the three years to the end of 2015, the OGP and its partner sector sourcing organisations in health, education, local government enabled procurement savings in excess of €160 million. Projected savings for the next three years are in the range of €80 million to €100 million per annum for the programme as a whole. The office is increasingly called upon to support key priority programmes such as the re-negotiation of the pharmaceutical agreement with industry, rapid build housing, the Garda safety camera network and large scale IT projects.

The national shared services office within my Department is leading the shared services strategy and the implementation of such projects within the overall reform and renewal context. This office is directly responsible for overseeing shared services projects within the Civil Service and provides expert guidance and support to other public service sectors in progressing their shared services commitments. Solid progress has been made: PeoplePoint, the Civil Service human resources and pensions administration shared service centre, now services more than 33,300 employees across 38 public service bodies; the payroll shared service centre services 92,000 payees, including pensioners, from 41 organisations and the financial management shared services project has commenced the design phase. The centre is scheduled to begin providing financial management services in early 2018 and by 2020 will service 48 public sector bodies. A provision of €37.9 million is sought for Vote 18, shared services. These areas require upfront investment but will yield economies and efficiencies in the medium term.

PeoplePoint will become fully operational in 2016 while the transitioning of payroll shared services will reach a conclusion by November 2017. The financial management project will pilot next year and will be fully operational two or three years after.

Vote 12 refers to the superannuation and retired allowances. It primarily provides for pension and retirement lump sum costs for civil servants, including prison officers, and pension payments for dependants. Year to year variations in expenditure on this Vote is primarily driven by the number of individuals who will opt to retire before reaching their compulsory retirement age and whose years of service and grade and-or pay level are variable and uncertain.

The majority of persons covered by the Vote, once they reach the age of 60, may opt to retire at any stage before reaching compulsory retirement age, which is generally 65. Some people may opt to retire earlier than 60 under the terms of the cost neutral early retirement arrangements whereby they may receive an actuarially reduced pension. In addition, there can be retirements due to ill health as well as persons becoming eligible to claim preserved pension benefits arising from previous employment within the Civil Service. The Estimate that I am proposing today involves a net provision of €391.88 million and represents an increase of just over €5 million, or 1%, on the net Estimate 2015.

The select committee has been supplied with detailed briefing by my Department's officials on the various Votes in the PER group, including those for the sub-office of my Department. As I mentioned earlier, the Vote for the Office of Public Works is handled separately by the select committee. I thank the Chairman and members for their time. I will be happy to answer any questions that may arise.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to open this meeting as I did the earlier one with the Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Canney. In the earlier session, we dealt with an Estimate of roughly €370 million and in this session, we are dealing with an Estimate worth €392 million, which is a substantial amount of money. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform has spoken in glowing terms of the reform that is taking place in the wider Civil Service and yet we, as a select committee, are expected to operate under Standing Order 90. The committee is only empowered to consider the Estimates and cannot alter, amend or vote on them. The committee must send a message to the Dáil when it has completed its consideration of the Estimates and it cannot decide not to do this. Under Standing Order 90, the message must be to the effect that the select committee has completed its consideration of an Estimate referred to it by the Dáil. There is no provision for the expression of an opinion by the committee on the Estimates in its message. As the Standing Order prescribes the nature of the message to be sent, the content is not a matter for decision by the committee.

I read that note out in the last session and have done so again because reform of the Civil Service, etc., is part of the remit of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. This session is a farce. It is a box ticking exercise. There is a perception that we examine Estimates here and send a message of our own accord back to the Dáil but that does not happen. We do not have the time and we are due to finish today at 12 noon. That means we are confined by time and Standing Order 90. This is a box ticking exercise and we have no real input. This is a bit theatre in terms of examining the Estimates. This is an appalling way to do the business of the select committee. I know this is not the fault of the Minister and I know we are going through a period of discussing reform. If ever a system needed reform, it is this one. It is a farce and is not working. Members will get into the generalities of Estimates but we do not have the time to drill down into figures and analyse them. That is regrettable in what we describe as an era of new politics. It is just the same old, same old and something urgent needs to be done to rectify the situation.

As Deputy Cullinane said earlier, this matter is not about the officials. However, when officials appear here, their names do not appear on the screens. The officials have no objection to that. It would be helpful for the committee members to know the officials, their responsibilities and to name them as they speak.

We must be mature in our efforts to examine the Estimates in a restricted timeframe and process. It is like being placed in a political straitjacket and being told what to do. One can neither act nor speak and the same message will go back to the Dáil. That is my view of the matter. I hope the Minister, within the Cabinet, particularly given his experience on committees - the same goes for his Minister of State, Deputy Eoghan Murphy - we will see the type of change necessary to really deal with these Estimates. I have placed my views on record because I believe that to be the case.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Chairman for his views. I agree with some of what he has said but not with all of it. Clearly, it would have been ideal if we had been in a position to begin this process earlier in the year. We would have had time to form broader committees. We would have had an opportunity to work through the Estimates in the detail anticipated by the Chairman, which I am happy to do.

A challenge we would have been faced with is that if we had brought Votes through the plenary session of the Dáil, there would have been no opportunity for questions to be put to me and would only have had statements, which would have been even more unsatisfactory. It is my hope that when we get into a more normal process, when all of the committees have been formed, that we will be able to engage in this in a detailed manner and on an ongoing basis. I will play my part in the process. I will always be available to the Chairman's committee to come in and answer questions.

With respect, there is one matter on which I differ from the Chairman. The Constitution clearly assigns roles and responsibilities. The Executive, or the Government, has some responsibilities that it has to play in terms of money Bills. Under the Constitution, we are required to perform certain duties. Certainly, inside that framework, as a clear consequence of our status as a minority Government and the arrangement we have with the Dáil and with the Chairman's party, we have to do more now to take on board the views of other parties in the Dáil when it comes to how we form a budget and what it should contain. I will do all that I can to facilitate that.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There is a need to change Standing Orders and there is an urgent need to reform the committee system. All of this has nothing to do with minority or majority governments because it is the people who have spoken. They have given us this result and we need to respond. The committee system has been like this for many years - I do not know how long. The system has to be changed.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There is no company in the country from which we collect taxes that would pass budgets within an hour and without the type of debate that I expect is necessary when dealing with a budget of €370 million. I am lobbying both the Minister and his Minister of State, as both of them know the committee system, to bring about the necessary changes. It would allow us, as members of the committee and Members of the Parliament, to do our work. The current system prevents us from doing so. We are fooling the public because they believe that we examine the Estimates when, in fact, they are only considered. The message that we send back is already pre-determined. This system is a farce.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I do not know whether the Chairman is taking questions in order. My question is on the Minister's statement.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy indicated a wish to speak.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. I somewhat agree with the Chairman's concerns and echo some of them. We are confined to asking questions about the Minister's statement. As the Chairman has said, we are asked to consider the Estimates under different Votes. It is in that context that I looked at the headings in the Minister's opening statement.

My first question is on public sector pay. The Minister quite rightly stated that the Lansdowne Road agreement will be in place up to September 2018. As I have said before, my party has given qualified support to the implementation of the agreement. My question on pay is linked to the summer economic statement released yesterday.

The latter set out the net fiscal space for the next five years. For 2017 and 2018, it is exclusive of the Lansdowne Road agreement. There was no provision in yesterday's statement for any further public sector pay restoration. The Minister has indicated the Lansdowne Road agreement is a way of setting out an agreed pathway to pay restoration and I presume he is speaking about the period up to 2018. There will be a difficult issue confronting all of us - members of the committee, Members of the Dáil and the people of the State - with regard to the unwinding of the financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, legislation. Those cuts were brought in - the Minister indicated the amount involved was €2.2 billion - and I am not in favour of scrapping the FEMPI legislation in one go either, as that would not be possible when considered in the context of the State's revenue. It will be somewhat problematic for the Minister to say we will scrap the universal social charge over five years, while putting €3 billion into a rainy day fund and not making any provision for any restoration of pay in the period 2019 to 2021.

We can all accept there must be some level of pay restoration in those years so it would be more honest of the Government to indicate the available current spend for the years - the fiscal space - but within that there must be some provision for more pay restoration in the public service. How can the State justify saying there is still an emergency with how it deals with public sector pay when it is seeking to put money aside for a rainy day fund and abolish taxes of up to €5 billion in the form of the universal social charge? There are trade unions already saying they will challenge this in the courts. I am not asking the Minister to give away a negotiating position or a figure, but will he at least concede that for the years 2019 to 2021, inclusive, we will have to make provisions for pay restoration beyond the Lansdowne Road agreement?

Public procurement was also mentioned in the Minister's statement. In the past we spoke a great deal about opening public procurement to small businesses and making it easier for them. Does the Minister or the Department have any plans for reform in the area? It was not set out in the statement so will the Minister give us his view on it? I also have a question on capital investment, which was also mentioned in the statement. I acknowledge there was some increased investment in capital announced yesterday and I welcome that, as far as it goes. The stability programme update contains figures charting revenue and expenditure as a percentage of gross domestic product, GDP, for the next five years. Both revenue and expenditure decreased as a percentage of GDP year on year. That factored in the Government's planned budgetary proposals, which includes tax cuts. One must accept that we have one of the lowest capital investment spends as a percentage of GDP already in the European Union and yet it is going to decrease year on year. Those figures did not appear in yesterday's statement, so will the Minister comment on that?

I have a technical question for the Minister. With regard to capital investment, we are also providing for what is called the smoothing of the capital formation. If, in a budget, we provide for €1 billion in additional capital spending, would it be smoothed over four years, meaning it would only eat into a quarter of the fiscal space? If that is the case, some of the money earmarked for capital expenditure would already be spent in a previous year, so there may not be an accurate reflection of what is to be spent in a given year. Will the Minister outline how the smoothing process works and also explain the logic behind it?

The next point relates to the flexibility of European Union rules. The Taoiseach has spoken about this, as did one of the Minister's MEP colleagues, when there was a request for the European Commission to be more flexible. The Minister's party and other parties agreed the fiscal rules in the first instance but it is interesting that there is now a call, even from the Taoiseach, to relax the fiscal rules. What is the Minister's view on that?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I have a final question.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We are caught for time.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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With respect, the Chairman spent about half an hour asking questions.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is my business. I am chairing the meeting. The Deputy should finish the question and allow the Minister to answer.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I accept that but if the Chairman spends 30 minutes asking questions, he should at least give us five minutes to ask questions.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We did not start 30 minutes ago. The Deputy should ask his question and get on with it.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will. If the Chairman treats people with respect, I will treat him with respect.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I will leave my final question and come back in again later.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I will deal with each of the Deputy's questions in turn. The short answer to his technical question is that, yes, capital expenditure is treated in a different way to current expenditure and smoothed over a four-year period. The figures outlined by the Deputy are approximately correct. That is the way it works and €1 of expenditure would have a smaller effect on how much of the fiscal space it absorbs.

The Deputy put different points in respect of pay and choices made. We are still in the very early stages of the current wage agreement negotiated with the public service. It is a three-year agreement and there are still active issues that we are managing in the context of working to get unions and other groups into it. The vast majority of unions and public civil servants have voted to be part of the agreement. Is it funded across the next number of years? The Deputy was correct earlier and the answer is "Yes". The figures quoted as part of the fiscal space relate, of course, to the net fiscal space. Growth fiscal space across the coming years includes the provision for paying for the Lansdowne Road agreement, as it does for commitments relating to the public capital programme. In the context of the aftermath of our current wage agreement - the Lansdowne Road agreement - and how we will deal with it, there will be a replacement to it. Such an agreement will come into play when the current one concludes. If I indicated the provision, I would prejudge the kind of negotiations that I and this Government will have with stakeholders in the area.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I was not asking about that. I was just asking the Minister to at least confirm that there would have to be some provision for the years 2019 to 2021, inclusive, for some level of pay restoration. I did not ask the amount.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The principle outlined by the Deputy is correct in that if there is to be a future agreement to replace the current one, we must have the ability to pay for it. We will have that ability but I will deal with the issue of how much of our future financial flexibility could be absorbed by it when we get to the conclusion of the current agreement.

I thank the Deputy for acknowledging the increase in capital investment, which was confirmed yesterday. We had a commitment to increase investment by an additional €4 billion and I confirmed yesterday that I would inform the Oireachtas that we are seeking to increase that to €5 billion, an extra €1 billion. It is my expectation that when the latter is in place, we will see capital expenditure increase from approximately 3.4% to 3.9% of national income. There will be an increase on the current position.

We can consider how this compares to where we were previously. We can begin to compare capital investment as a percentage of national income to where we were in the run-up to the tiger period and across that time, when we spent approximately €9 billion per year, for example, in completing our national road network.

However, I do not think that is an appropriate base to use. There was a very large amount of investment in that period in putting in place a national road network but one of the consequences was that parts of our economy overheated. I am confident that when we rebuild our investment, as I proposed yesterday, there will be a sustainable level of capital investment in our economy which I am confident will then trigger further investment from the private sector.

I was asked about the flexibility of the European Union rules and we have already discussed smoothing, as well as differentiating between current and capital expenditure, which would be an important recognition of the different types of expenditure. In the future, what I require is consistency in the way these things are implemented. If something is treated as a public-private partnership now, I am confident this will be the case in the future. Consistency will be important to this and other Governments in the coming years.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I fully agree with the Minister's opening comments. I sat on the Dáil reform committee and we gave as much thought as we could to reforming the committee system to enable it to work in conjunction with the Government and the rest of the Oireachtas on matters like these. Delegated time for committees, separate from plenary time, such as we have today was part of that, and any recommendations would be very helpful to the reform committee as it seeks to improve the process next year. We are changing a lot of things at the moment and the reform committee will become a standing committee to continue to look at how we do our business.

There was a question on Government procurement and SMEs, which is a very pertinent issue. Some 66% of public money in this area goes to small and medium enterprises but we can still do better. Members will be aware that Directive 2014/24 has been transposed here. This directive looks at ways more Government business could go to small and medium enterprises around the country, such as with e-tendering and consortia bidding. In addition, financial capacity requirements are less onerous, generally being twice the contract value. In these ways we are trying to encourage SMEs to bid and help them to be successful. We have all heard stories from companies who have found difficulties in this process so the Office of Government Procurement has increased its outreach and now it goes out to meet businesses and holds meet-the-buyer events and tender events, at a recent one of which there were some 500 people. It is a very positive and proactive engagement. I want to make sure I am in the position where I can hear if there are problems with certain businesses. I would like to help people work through these problems and Deputies from all parties and none have already come to me to ask me to do that. I will roll this out from September.

The programme for Government has a couple of interesting commitments which aim to increase capacity in this regard. One relates to reviewing the tender advisory service, something we want to do by 2017. Another is a consultation on the possibility of setting up a procurement ombudsman. This could be a very positive development if it is done in the right way but it could also have downsides. We are working within EU constraints but we are trying to make it more accessible for small and medium enterprises. It is difficult for companies and businesses who, in the past, had Government contracts but have now found that, with the new arrangements to save money for the taxpayer and State, they are not as successful as in the past.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In the context of the budgetary reform process, when does the Minister envisage that the 2017 Estimates process will be considered by the select committee? Will it be before the end of the year?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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My understanding is that the Estimates that come out of the budget in October normally come back to the House early in the following calendar year. I would anticipate this happening again. In the past they have been taken through committee at more length than is happening this year. In my previous life as Minister for Transport, I spent many hours in committee dealing with the Estimates for that Department but, for various reasons, that is not happening now.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That would typically be around February.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes. In the normal cycle I would have secured agreement as part of the budget and would have come into the committee and made a statement on it. When my Estimates are drafted, particularly at sub-Department level, and all elements are clear I come back to the sectoral committee in January or February of the following year with a detailed paper. That is then discussed for quite a while.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Cullinane asked about public sector pay and the Lansdowne Road agreement, which is still in its early stages and has over two years left to run. There is a commitment to set up a public sector pay commission. When does the Minister envisage that being set up? Does he anticipate that entrant pay for young gardaí and young teachers will be dealt with through that mechanism of the commission?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Under the terms of the Lansdowne Road agreement, when any new process or modality is being developed to look at issues pertinent to the agreement, I am required to consult with all stakeholders, by which I mean signatories, before I conclude it. It is my objective to begin the consultation with the signatories to the Lansdowne Road agreement soon, by which I mean within the coming weeks, to get their views regarding what role they can play. The process could play a role in examining the question of the pay of new entrants in certain parts of the civil and public service but I would need the input of the signatories first. The Deputy will be familiar with the concept of relativity and will know that when something changes in one area of our civil and public service it has many consequences in other parts. Many unions in the Lansdowne Road process have views on this matter and have already articulated them and I will have to take them into account too.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The consultation on the public pay commission will start shortly. When does the Minister envisage that it will be up and running? Is he looking at the first half of next year for this? What will its terms of reference be and what will the output from the commission be? Will it be to recommend levels of pay beyond the Lansdowne Road agreement?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The outputs will be recommendations but not ones by which the Government is necessarily bound. The rationale for this is that it is absolutely vital in any work we do that we do not remove the ability of a Government employer to negotiate directly with its employees. I do not want negotiations on the future being handled by an entity that is not the Government. I do not believe that would be appropriate and I believe some of the concerns about accountability which were outlined by the Chairman earlier would be exacerbated in such an eventuality. On the terms of reference, I need to seek the views of signatories and I will, of course, consult with the Oireachtas on this point. On the timing, I envisage it will take some months to get the views of signatories on the work of the commission so I will want to get the ball rolling within this year.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Government policy is that there will not be any changes outside of the context of the Lansdowne Road agreement prior to its expiration in the autumn of 2018.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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That is correct. The clear view of the Government is that any matters relating to public service pay will be dealt with inside the Lansdowne Road agreement and it is working to bring groups into the agreement. I would say that the Lansdowne Road agreement framework offers plenty of processes and ways in which we can deal with the issues people are raising. Amidst the understandable focus on groups outside the agreement, I point to the progress that has been made recently, with the TUI voting with a large turnout and a large majority to join the Lansdowne Road agreement.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I welcome the Minister and the Minister of State to the committee. My questions concern the Vote before us, but before I put them I will make a broad point about the need for this committee to make time for a discussion on the summer economic statement and the recent report of the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council. Notwithstanding the time constraints we face today, I would welcome the opportunity to have a broader discussion on the very macroeconomic issues that affect us all, particularly how the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform fits into that firmament, because there are legitimate questions relating to the summer economic statement concerning the costings for 2017 of recent announcements such as the Revised Estimate for health and the €200 million local investment fund for local authorities. On the latter, we need an opportunity to interrogate the modalities of that scheme and its cost in terms of public expenditure but also in respect of-----

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I am available to come before the committee and have that discussion at any point.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I appreciate that. Other issues include medium-term objectives and the stability programme update. These are all issues that this committee needs to have time to discuss with the Minister, so I appreciate that and I thank the Minister.

The EU referendum in Great Britain is on the horizon. In respect of subheads A6 and A8 and the Special EU Programmes Body, SEUPB, which is within the Minister's Department, we have given a lot of resources and time to ensuring that this North-South body is adequately funded and that the PEACE programme is funded adequately from an EU perspective. Has the Minister a view on the effect on those programmes if the UK exits the EU? Subhead A8 concerns the Ireland Wales Territorial Co-operation Programme. I am very worried that if the UK exits the EU it will have a profound effect on programmes operating on a North-South basis from both a social and an economic point of view. I would welcome the Minister's perspective on that.

In respect of procurement, I note that reference was made to savings of €80 million to €100 million and previous savings. I have a worry about Irish SMEs. I note that there has been a lot of work done with regard to the local enterprise offices and "meet the buyer" events and so on, and savings have been made. Has the Department calculated whether more Irish SMEs have taken up this opportunity and whether pre-existing Irish companies and SMEs have been crowded out by virtue of the fact that they lack the economies of scale required to compete for business? I make specific reference to the education sector, where there is anecdotal evidence that companies that supplied arts and crafts supplies, books and other products in the education sphere feel they will not be able to retain the market share they had and are being crowded out by the new regime for procuring savings. I do not necessarily need an answer to that today. I am just putting down a marker, and we might have a further discussion on it because there are companies that are feeling a bit of pressure in that space.

Is PeoplePoint operating at full capacity? Have the individual line Departments' HR and payment functions migrated to PeoplePoint in a seamless fashion? We all acknowledge that there will be a lag on that and that there will be issues that must be dealt with, but I would like to hear the Minister's perspective on whether PeoplePoint is up and running and whether it is responding to individual workers' queries in a timely fashion.

In respect of Vote 19, provision is made for issues such as prisoner complaints, clinical judgements and direct provision to be dealt with by the Office of the Ombudsman. I understand it has a budget of €9.7 million. Will the Office of the Ombudsman have an expanded role? Is the cost of this being met in respect of the potential need for increased personnel to deal with an expanded service?

I have a bugbear concerning our own services here. Our own IT infrastructure has not migrated to the cloud. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform is doing a very good job of ensuring that build-to-share and cloud service platforms are built through the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer. I note the statement relating to data mining and so on. Is this is a matter for further discussion somewhere down the line? We could discuss how the Oireachtas operates in respect of our own ICT infrastructure and making loose systems available, because the systems we are operating at the moment are a bit anachronistic and arcane and might need to be looked at. That is a very minor issue, but I said I would take the opportunity to raise it with the Minister while he was here.

I welcome the comments on the opening up of a dialogue with the public sector unions on the commission. The Minister made a very clear statement about how any sudden elimination of the FEMPI measures is not feasible. I was hoping for more time today to discuss the summer economic statement, the fiscal space and the new moneys that appear to have been made available, because I wonder whether there is scope to accelerate the unwinding of FEMPI, given the increased resources that would appear to be available as an outcome of the summer economic statement.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I will ask the Minister of State, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, to deal with the IT and procurement issues raised by Deputy Sherlock.

I will begin with the programmes mentioned by Deputy Sherlock, SEUPB and PEACE. Of course, I am very much aware of the role played by Deputy Sherlock in his previous role negotiating the Fresh Start agreement and the further progress that was made in Northern Ireland. The short answer to his question is that if the UK votes to leave the EU, these programmes will be affected. There are two particular dimensions to these programmes that will be affected. As the Deputy is aware, the first is the fact that the EU provides most of the funding for them. Second, the requirement for State investment in these areas is front-loaded - the investment is at the start.

This is one of the many reasons we have campaigned for the British people to vote to remain in the EU. I recognise that it is their sovereign right. We have referendums here all the time, and I am conscious of how we feel when people visit our country, but programmes like this will have an effect. I do not want to quantify the effect because we have to see how the United Kingdom will vote on Thursday, and I will not get into specifying the figures in that respect because I do not want to be involved in the debate in any way beyond the Government’s involvement already. Funding streams such as this are predicated on countries being in the European Union.

In response to the questions about PeoplePoint, as of 31 May of this year, 38 bodies have moved to PeoplePoint, and it provides services for over 33,000 employees. Two final public service bodies are due to move this year. When that is in place there will be 34 bodies, at which point we anticipate-----

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Does that include Departments?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Have all Departments migrated to this?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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There are four more Departments to go. We believe we are on track to move most target Departments in, and the benefit of that is that when PeoplePoint is fully up and running and all the target organisations are in, it will deliver €3.7 million in savings per year. The objective is that all the transactions being conducted by individual Departments will be moved to a central unit.

The Deputy is correct in saying there are some areas into which the Ombudsman is due to move and have a role, such as direct provision. That will come into effect from 1 November 2016. Other areas will include prisoner complaints, as supported by the Department of Justice and Equality. A possible area of expansion will be into the area of clinical judgments. When this happens it will affect staff numbers for next year and not this year, so we will deal with that in the context of the Estimates for 2017.

I have made a very explicit statement about FEMPI: there is an additional cost to the Exchequer of €1.4 billion of current expenditure. We cannot accelerate the Lansdowne Road agreement or the change of FEMPI. Anything that can be done has to be done in a graduated and sustainable manner. For those reasons, the Lansdowne Road agreement and its architecture are vital to managing all of the competing demands on our public finances.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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One of my delegated responsibilities is that of e-government, and one of the biggest problems I have had since my appointment is migrating from the Oireachtas system to the departmental system. It is incredibly frustrating to have these problems. I have learned that the Oireachtas maintains some independence in respect of an ambition or drive to share services in this area. There is a great Office of the Government Chief Information Officer and a new person has been appointed to that role who has very ambitious plans for a government cloud, which we will move on this year. There is money allocated in the subheads for that. A challenge will be to bring the Oireachtas in as part of that, if that is the appropriate thing to do, but it has to be considered because there is a view that the pillars should be separate - for example, the services given to the Oireachtas versus the Department.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I am not liking what I am hearing.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Neither am I. When I heard it I thought, "We have to examine this immediately."

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I am not criticising anybody working within our IT system here. The system is what it is. If Government is talking about open data, open government and the system we operate as a parliament, compared with others such as the Estonian parliament, which has moved lock, stock and barrel into the cloud, then - while I note there may be security issues, with firewalling and whatnot - we need to bring our system kicking and screaming into this century, because I contend that it uses last-century technology. If the Minister can have an open mind about that and, in his responsibility for public expenditure and reform, ensure that we make our system fit for purpose, that will send a signal.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is right to cite Estonia as a model. I am meeting the ambassador, if not this week then next week, to talk about all that has been done there because people from industry cite it as best in class. The Deputy is dead right to talk about open data. I have had several conversations with the Government Chief Information Officer about what we can do with data. The communications service the Oireachtas gives to the public is very good, but the service we encounter here can be very difficult. We need to balance the two. On open data, there are some exciting forums coming up in the autumn, such as hackathons and forums for sharing data, making it more accessible and making it work better for the public and inside Government services.

The procurement question about market share is very pertinent. Although 66% of public services expenditure in 2013 went to small and medium-sized enterprises, SMEs, I do not have the figure for 2014. As we increase our spend, we want to ensure SMEs are accessing and winning as much as they can. The EU directive on consortium bidding was intended to make it possible for them to compete against bigger players. Anecdotally, I have heard that it has not been as successful as we had hoped. That is what I am looking into.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Is there a clear set of metrics?

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I am looking for those.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Chairman, I wish to make a correction to the record: I inadvertently gave Deputy Sherlock the wrong answer. I said there were four Departments outstanding in the move to PeoplePoint; it is in fact two.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Which ones are left?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I will get back to the Deputy on that. The Oireachtas is one. In any hours of leisure available to the committee members, I advise them to look at www.opendata.ie, which is an extraordinary website.

Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and his staff. It is just not possible for us to make any proper analysis of them if we get these documents the night before a meeting. We should have them days in advance.

Superannuation accounts for €526 million. How many people does that represent? I was looking for the figure for lump sum payments when a member of the public service retires. Is it €391.88 million? An output of 2,400 was mentioned. Does that correspond to the €391 million?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I will have to ask the Deputy to clarify his question about the lump sum so that I can answer it accurately, but I can answer the others now. I agree with him about sharing information with the committee. We will change that in future.

In 2015 there were 21,794 people in receipt of the payments covered by the superannuation Vote, and in 2016 that went up to 22,825.

The largest subheads of that were in regard to overall superannuations, namely, pension payments, which went to 15,400 in 2016. The next biggest group was in regard to spouses and children and that went to 4,380 people in 2016. Could Deputy D'Arcy please put the question on the lump sum to me again?

Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The figure I am looking at is €391.88 million. Page 39 of the document we received in our pigeonholes shows the 2016 output target at 2,400. I do not wish to be incorrect. Am I correct in saying 2,400 people are divided into €392 million?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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No. The reason for that is that the earlier figure I gave includes people who are in receipt of pensions already, whereas the figure cited by the Deputy of 2,400 - I will be corrected by an official if I am wrong - will mostly focus on people who are exiting the Civil Service and public service who are about to join the fund. To put it more plainly, the 2,400 figure might be interpreted as new beneficiaries of the fund. They are people who are exiting the public service who are then having their pension rights determined.

Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry but perhaps I am not making myself clear. Is the sum of €392 million the lump sum fund to be paid per annum for people exiting the public service - the 2,400 people?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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No. That includes people who are exiting per year and people who have already exited.

Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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What I am trying to establish is the cost to the Exchequer of what the lump sum is then, if that is not the figure.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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With respect, that is a different question to the one I have just been trying to answer. Deputy D'Arcy asked me about the 2,400 figure, or what the 1,080 figure is.

Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I understand that.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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They are people who are-----

Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Exiting.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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That is exactly it. In regard to what is the cost then of the lump sums across the period, it is €92.5 million, which is subhead A4.

Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The sum of €92.5 million is the-----

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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It is the lump sum. That is correct. The long-run average lump sum is approximately €70,000. However, that can vary by person and by year.

Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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But the average is €70,000. Could the Minister please explain the sum of €392 million to me again?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The sum of €392 million is for current recipients - in other words, those who might have retired many years ago and it covers the cost also of those whom we estimate will retire this year.

Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Is that sum of €392 million part of the €526 million?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That clarifies the position.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The difference between the two of them is what is referred to as "A-in-A", appropriations-in-aid, which is the contributions this fund receives from other Departments that leads to the net figure on which Deputy D'Arcy is quizzing me.

Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Yes, that is fine. It was not very clear. It is a criticism in that when one only gets the documents the night before, one is scrambling to understand figures that are not clear.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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To be fair to the Minister and the Department, these figures were given to us a number of days ago. The figures from the OPW only arrived last night.

Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I only got this document in my pigeonhole last night.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That document-----

Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I got the e-mail-----

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The information from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform came days ago but the information from the OPW came yesterday.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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We shared this information with the committee as soon as we had the time tied down for the meeting but I accept Deputy D'Arcy's point that when we get into the normal flow of things, I will know about a meeting with the committee many days before the meeting and we will aim to share the information with members as soon as we can. It took me a long time to get my head around the Revised Estimates as well so that I would be in a position to be able to answer the questions.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, a Chathaoirligh. First, I wish both Ministers the very best in their new Departments. I have a question on subhead A8 in Vote 12, superannuation and retired allowances. It relates to an increase of 994% on a liability to a payment under chapter 2C of the Taxes Consolidation Act. Could the Minister please supply some background on what that is and why it is so large? I do not have any comparatives from previous years to base it on but I would welcome clarification of whether it is raw tax.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Could I just check to which subhead the Deputy refers?

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It is on page 43. My notes indicate it is subhead A8. It goes from €100,000 to €1,105,000.

The second point relates to Vote 39 and the Office of Government Procurement. Could the Minister please give a brief outline on the work that is ongoing in getting suppliers registered through e-Tenders. It is a significant concern for smaller businesses as it is difficult to get information out to encourage supplier registration.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I will respond to the Deputy's first question on subhead A8, the provision of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1977 places a joint liability for tax due on the trustees of pension schemes where the pension benefits of an individual from all sources exceeds €2 million. That provision is a prudent contingency. If the Deputy wishes to get any more information on that beyond what I have said, I will supply it to him.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Does the provision relate to one individual?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Burke's question on e-Tenders is a good one. In relation to the work we are trying to do, we are trying to make this facility for tendering and procurement more accessible and easier for small companies and enterprises. Recently, a study was published on the number of Irish businesses that do not have an online presence or that do not interact online on a regular basis. Such companies would have real difficulty in accessing the service. Part of the outreach of the Office of Government Procurement includes the "meet the buyer" events and the "go to tender" events to explain the portal, how it works, why it is of benefit and how to navigate it. I have just taken on this role and I am getting interesting feedback on how to make the system more accessible from people who have tried to access it. When I visited the Office of Government Procurement headquarters, it was one of the matters we discussed and it is something I hope to do in the context of some of the events I will be doing from the autumn on to get that to work better for companies. Deputy Burke is aware that a number of colleagues raised the issue previously as well.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Chairman, if I could, I will just add additional information in response to Deputy Burke's questions. He asked me about the number of people to whom the A8 subhead refers. I said it refers to one person. That was the case in 2015 and the number for 2016 is eight people.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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That is okay.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of the time. As part of the restrictions on us, we are supposed to finish at 12 noon.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I am happy to stay if that is of help to you, Chairman.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. I will deal with a few issues that relate to the Minister of State, Deputy Eoghan Murphy. What is the total amount involved in procurement by the State?

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The amount in total is €8.5 billion on goods and services and €3.5 billion on capital works.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is it €3.5 billion on capital works?

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Chairman:

I agree with what was said by the other members who have raised the SME sector. What small and medium enterprises are being asked to do is against the principle of how they do business in that they protect their rates and the business that they have, and they are being asked to share their information with others to make up the critical mass to make the bid for whatever business might be going.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is this in respect of bidding by consortiums?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. If I was in this position, I would be conscious that this would involve divulging business data not only to the Department but to others, and then one is competing against larger companies with greater turnover. The turnover figure required to qualify to tender for business is too high. Not too many Irish companies have this level of turnover. The complaint is that many of the contracts for procurement end up going to companies outside the country. In France, they break down the system to ensure it is possible for the SME sector to engage directly in procurement. While the Government is making a saving in respect of a component of the business, it could be losing if small businesses lose their position in the marketplace with a loss of jobs. Some of those who lose out may be family-run businesses or individuals running a service for a Department or Government agency. It is difficult for them to compete or to get into the market. In some cases the State may be their only customer. We must find a way of engaging with the micro-businesses that are feeling the pinch in regard to the procurement process and cannot find a foothold in that process. They cannot fight it; they are up against the State. It is State processes versus the individual. There were interesting cases recently in respect of pest control services, education and stationery. The Department must examine the outcomes of procurement business to date versus the fallout for the SME sector.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The Chairman has raised a very important point. We are undergoing a significant change in regard to how the State procures services. In a time when we were spending less money because of the crisis, what drove us all the time was the bottom line. That was the correct thing to do but, now that we have found some breathing room as a result of these practices, it cannot be just about the bottom line for the State. We must consider how small businesses work in different parts of the country. We have to think of social clauses in some of our procurement contracts. We also have to be mindful of the EU law under which we operate. Only about 7% of business goes outside the country. I know there is a perception in some parts of the country that a lot more contracts are being won by foreign companies, but that is not the case. When one looks at the statistics in terms of the business that Irish companies are winning abroad, we are doing better. We are doing better abroad by being able to access those markets, such as France and other markets in the EU. That is good for small businesses. I am meeting with Enterprise Ireland tomorrow to discuss this further.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The information I was given about France is that the French break down the contracts in the interests of their own indigenous businesses. The EU should be challenged on the rules and regulations it imposes on member states. Sometimes it is not a case of one size fits all. If a measure is imposed on France, it will respond to it quickly.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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A criticism that has come back to me is that we are over-interpreting EU directives. I want to examine whether this is the case. A good recent EU directive is the 2014 directive on procurement, which is aimed at small and medium enterprises, so it opened the door for consortium bidding and also lotting. I have heard anecdotally that lotting is being taken up but consortium bidding is not, perhaps for the reasons the Chairman suggested. I hope to go to Kilkenny in September as I have been invited, as the Minister with responsibility for procurement, to meet small businesses to hear their concerns. I will keep the Chairman fully informed of that visit. We are trying to continuously improve what we are offering to Irish businesses, so I need to know the facts from the ground.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is good that the Minister gets beyond the statistics and gets down to the level of real people. That is where the effects are felt most. I think the experience has been negative, but perhaps with some tweaks here and there the system could allow Irish businesses to hold their own within the State.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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We want them to more than hold their own. As the Government spends more money as we decentralise procurement and find efficiencies, we want Irish businesses to do well. We have to be mindful of EU directives, but there is also a wider conservation that we have to have. We have a duty to the taxpayer to save and find value for money but we also have a duty to Irish businesses and people. It about finding a balance. We did a successful pilot project. Let me add that we have a duty to individuals in terms of our social clauses, including people who have been out of work too long and people who need education in work. The State can help by awarding contracts to Irish businesses in an open and transparent way while also saving money and getting value for money.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am happy to hear that.

The Minister mentioned IT projects in his opening remarks. How does the role of the Department fit into some of these areas? The HSE has been engaged with the Department for some time in respect of a single financial reporting model that would give the Department greater insight into the spending of the HSE. What is the position on that now? Has the Department approved the spending?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I will have to revert to the Chairman as I do not have the answer to hand. I will find out the answer to that and I will come back with it.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would one of the officials present have the answer? He would be able to sit in the Minister's seat.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Chairman, if I can take a moment, I will see if I can get the required information.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am not putting anybody on the spot. This has gone on for years. Each time the question is asked, we are told the Department is consulting with the HSE or the HSE is consulting with the Department. Nobody has given a straight answer to date. As a result, there is a major single Department with a significant budget that is not able to provide the information that one would expect. The IT systems that are required should be put in place. They are not reinventing the wheel; such IT systems are used all over the world. Nobody can understand why it cannot be done.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I can give an update now. At present the business case in respect of the IT structure for the HSE has now been approved by my Department. We are in the early phase of the roll-out and my Department is represented on the group for rolling that out.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is good.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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That is under way.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to raise an issue with regard to staffing. Is there a process to allow individuals who retire on health grounds to apply to return to the Civil Service if they fulfil all the necessary requirements? Is there a timeframe for that process?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The answer to the Chairman's question is "Yes." There is a process by which that can happen. In order for the process to begin, the individual who has left the public service has to be certified medically as being able to work.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to a grievance procedure, is there a process for appealing a decision or the way in which a person was treated? Is there a single section in the Department that deals with this process?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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There is a grievance procedure in place. I have been informed that it is overseen by the Chief Medical Officer.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How many people are waiting for their appeal process to be concluded?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I do not have that information but I will find out and let the Chairman have an answer this week. Does the Chairman have the case of a particular individual in mind?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I can give the Minister details later.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The Chairman may share this information with us at the end of the meeting.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Department come directly to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to discuss funding?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In this Estimate, we are dealing with the Minister's Department.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is it fair to ask the Minister what mechanisms or processes are in place to satisfy him and his officials that his Department will have oversight of the money that has been agreed between him and the other Ministers?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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In my Department there are officials who are organised by Vote. They engage regularly with the Department with which they have a relationship to make sure that the money we have allocated is going on projects we have agreed. As part of all that, if Departments want to move expenditure from one subhead to another it requires the agreement of my Department. If requests come in during the year on different projects, it can only happen with my formal consent and with the consent of the Minister for Finance to increase the general expenditure ceiling for how much money our State is spending.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What is the position in the context of section 38s and sections 39s?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Is the Chairman referring to the organisations?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, within the HSE. I want to drill down that far with it. If the Minister comes across an issue, is it the Minister's Department that drives the necessary change for that accountability or does he expect the line Department to come up with the structure to scrutinise it much better?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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I expect it is the Accounting Officer of the Department of Health who would have the primary responsibility for that. Alongside that, a big area of focus for my Deportment at the moment is how to strengthen the accountability relationships between the Department of Health, the HSE, and those organisations that receive taxpayers' funding. That is particularly the case in light of a recent decision that was made.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Would other Departments be the same in terms of their reporting to the Minister?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister satisfies himself that the reporting structures are appropriate and all in place.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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We have an ongoing discussion with Departments about this. Within my Department we have officials who are responsible for the Vote. They deal with their colleagues in the other Departments on a daily basis. I will mention another initiative which it would be worthwhile for the committee to look at in the coming months. We have funded a new initiative as part of the open Government partnership calledbenefacts.ie. We have co-funded this with Atlantic Philanthropies. It is a single database in which every citizen will be able to see the funding stream that any charity organisation receives from the taxpayer. It is something I encountered when I was working with the Chairman on the Committee of Public Accounts. If one is dealing with an organisation in receipt of taxpayer funding, sometimes it receives multiple streams of funding and it can be very difficult to identify the total amount received. We have co-funded a website that now means any citizen can go in and find out what any charity organisation gets from the taxpayer and from whom they get it. We launched the initiative a number of weeks ago. I hope over the coming years it will play a really big part in enabling people to better understand where their money goes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is a good initiative. Earlier this morning when we were talking to the OPW, it gave us three different examples of properties that it has rented and which there is currently no use for. I appreciate that they were talking about 2015 but there are examples like that throughout different Departments. It is the Minister's Department that examines their accounts. Are those questions raised directly with the Accounting Officer?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes. If there is capital expenditure involved in the acquisition of buildings and those buildings are not being used, we would have discussions with the line Departments on that. At times, there can be valid reasons that has not happened and why a building has been used or has changed and is not being used in the way we want. We would be as concerned as the Chairman if taxpayers' money was spent on the delivery of a facility which was not being used in the way that was intended. The Chairman is right to say that most of that work would happen through the OPW. The OPW also has a Vote that is accountable to me and we will work with it on such matters.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I want to ask about policy in terms of the Minister versus the Accounting Officer, who is a civil servant. I ask the question wearing my previous hat. Where suggestions are made for the improvement of accountability as is often done in the Committee of Public Accounts for wards of court, is it the Minister's decision to respond, is it a policy decision that creates the response or is it just the response of the Accounting Officer?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Will the Chairman give me an example of what kind of change he is referring to?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I will give the example of the wards of court. Recommendations were made to improve the structures around that to make it more accountable and transparent. The recommendations were rejected. Is that a decision for the Minister?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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If it is an issue of accountability between my Department and another Department, the responsibility sits with me but in the operation of these things, if I want to change the reporting relationship between me and another Government Department I would have to seek the consent and agreement of the other Department to do so. I might gain its agreement but I have to have its commitment to make it work. On the accountability between an Accounting Officer and an organisation in receipt of funding from the line Department, the accountability relationship is between the Accounting Officer and the organisation but clearly any matters on taxpayers' money are of concern to my Department.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There is a figure of €300,000 in the Estimate to support the implementation of the Protected Disclosures Act. What kind of support does that mean?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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What subhead is that under?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is on page 12 of the briefing document and it refers to €300,000. It is a new allocation to support the implementation of the Protected Disclosures Act.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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This relates to the enactment of the Protected Disclosures Act 2014. It refers to making sure we have the funding in place to make sure the Act is implemented. One of the things it is used for is supporting and training staff who may receive such disclosures and also informing people within organisations of their rights and entitlements under the Protected Disclosures Act.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Minister satisfied that the Act is being appropriately acknowledged within the Civil Service?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I will give the Chairman an example of what we have at the moment. We are already funding a free helpline and an advice line service which is provided by an independent law centre under the auspices of Transparency International Ireland. This is all about working with people who might have an interest in making an act of disclosure, to tell them how they can do it and being confident that those rights are well understood by people.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is it in operation?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Minister satisfied that people can be comfortable coming forward and should be encouraged to do so?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Yes. This is a new allocation. It is a new funding line for 2016. I am satisfied with it and alongside that it is something I have to be ever vigilant on. My experience of these matters is that one cannot always assume the culture is in place. It is something that has to be worked on year after year. The moment one thinks that we have culturally gotten to the right place on these matters and that it requires no further attention, we are slipping backwards.

That is why we have a facility such as this in place. I would say I am confident about it but one can never afford to be complacent.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There is an unexpected increase in the number of coroner samples according to the State Laboratory accounts. What is the issue there? Is it staffing or how is that being managed? There is a backlog. It is detailed on page 47.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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There was an unexpected increase in the number of samples submitted to the coroner's office to date, which led to a backlog. There was also a delay in potential prosecution oil samples for the Revenue Commissioners, which were carried into 2016 from last year due to a large increase in sample numbers. As the State Laboratory has been operating with a staff deficit in the laboratory analyst grade since mid 2015, it will not be possible to clear these backlogs until the vacant positions are filled. We have now implemented a recruitment campaign, organised through the Public Appointments Service, and we hope to fill these positions in the next few months to deal with the timeliness of these services.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What kind of position is that? What professional qualifications are required?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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They are laboratory analysts, namely, people in the laboratories who carry out the testing. The number of tests expected to be analysed for this year is 400,000, with 12,400 samples to be analysed. With regard to the analysis of samples, to date there have been 5,326 samples analysed, with 232,519 individual tests having taken place. It is a very high-frequency service.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Sherlock referred to services to Members of the Houses. That entire area must be examined in great detail. Information technology was mentioned and we have an excellent service here. Sometimes one is better to stay with it. It is constantly evolving and it needs investment. Members are being asked much more now with regard to their work in the House and it is extremely difficult to meet all the demands for time. Certainly, technology allows us to bridge that gap.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The Oireachtas has come on in leaps and bounds in helping Members communicate with the public through technology. It is now much easier, for example, to get a 30-second clip of this meeting or a speech in the Dáil and put it on Facebook or Twitter or however somebody wants to use it. As more of our work is going digital, it is creating obstacles in terms of security, data protection and access to data. We have this year appointed a new person as Government Chief Information Officer. The person in question came from Northern Ireland and did great work up there. I was in Belfast recently and heard all about it first hand. We are facing big challenges in the public service and the challenge will come to us as politicians as well. Decisions will have to be made on the way we want to go. The idea of having the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer is to tie everything together, with one office or person leading or driving it. Very recently, the Government Chief Information Officer got the chief information officers from each Department together as part of building an action plan from the ICT services strategy deployed last year.

We now need an action plan off the back of that for the next three or four years, perhaps up to 2020. It should deal with what we want to do, not just in terms of improving the service here for members as we interact and try to do our jobs but, more importantly, for the public and how they interact with government. We are now seeing a greater possibility and opportunity for the public to engage more not just with politicians but with government and to ensure those engagements are positive. Rather than going to get a driving licence and queuing for three hours, trying to get there on time or having all sorts of difficulties, as we move more government services online, we should make their interactions better and more efficient. We can then get greater buy-in from people because of that, which will help everybody. That is the kind of work they are trying to drive towards.

The chief information officers have had their first session and the follow-up will be in the next couple of weeks. From that, we will build an action plan and I would like to see that started in the autumn. It is very important when it comes to issues like sharing data with the public and making it intelligible for them. The Minister, Deputy Donohoe, mentioned all the data and information we have already online as a Government relating to matters like budget, spending and related documentation. I am keen to make that intelligible and accessible for people. We have discussed tax transparency issues before as being suitable for being placed on a website, so people can see exactly and broken down by Department where their money is going in euro and cent. People can then have an informed debate with representatives on the priorities that the Government should focus on with public money.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Please do not lose sight of the fact that these Houses need funding to put their Members ahead of the game. It is very important that we renew constantly the information and technology for Members. Inevitably, regardless of what is online, the Member would be on the front line. Members engage directly with constituents. It is important to remember in the entire process the Parliament and its Members. I know the Minister of State is not forgetting them but we must ensure they are given priority.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The Chairman is dead right. In the past three years, for example, I have seen the Oireachtas getting ahead of the game for Members who are most proficient with technology. A service is being provided for them that is almost outperforming the service that Members could provide from their individual offices.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is true.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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My office is a case in point. We thought we were ahead of the game but we found out very quickly that we no longer were ahead of it.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Minister of State now ahead of the game?

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I am so far behind, I cannot even see where is the game. I do not even know the game. I thought I was a young tech-head but I am not. One goes to a CoderDojo event and one realises that it all happening with people about 20 years younger than oneself.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Imagine how I feel.

Eoghan Murphy (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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There are benefits in economies of scale if the Oireachtas comes in with the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer. The more we can save in the likes of procurement and sharing cloud services, etc., the more we can invest in improving the output coming from individual Members.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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We hope to speak to the Ministers again in early September about expenditure for 2017. It is a meeting we have already arranged with the Office of Public Works. Perhaps we could do likewise with the Minister and the Minister of State.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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We would be very pleased to do that. By the time we get to that point, we will have published our mid-year expenditure, not only for my Department but for all Departments. That might well provide a platform for a committee meeting.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and the officials for attending.