Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We are now in public session. I ask that all mobile phones be switched off or put on silent model as they interfere with the sound system. I ask if delegates could be mindful of the brief time allocated and I ask them to keep their presentations to five minutes each and these will be followed by questions. We need to finish the meeting by 3.30 p.m.

I advise the witnesses that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to this committee. If they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given. They are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing ruling of the Chair to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or any official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The Irish National Organisation of the Unemployed is represented by Mr. John Stewart and Mr. John Farrell. The Department of Social Protection is represented by Mr. John McKeon, Mr. Barry Kennedy and Mr. Donal Spellman. I invite Mr. Stewart to make his presentation on behalf of the INOU.

Mr. John Stewart:

I thank the committee for inviting us to discuss the work we have done on mapping the journey for people who are short-term unemployed and their experience of the Intreo service. We very much appreciate the committee's interest in this aspect of the work.

There is no doubt that the development of the Intreo service marked a significant change in the way that welfare and employment services are delivered to unemployed people. The bringing together of the employment services, the payments processing and the community welfare service marked a very significant departure from the arrangements that applied heretofore.

The INOU, as the national organisation of the unemployed, is of the view that it was really important to hear from the people most affected - the unemployed people. The aim of our project was to capture what individuals were finding useful or helpful in this new service, to identify those aspects that may not be working particularly well and to identify what changes are required to improve the overall Intreo process and service.

We visited two Intreo offices on 25 occasions, between April 2013 and April 2014, to talk to unemployed people entering and exiting what are known as the group engagement sessions, with a view to inviting people to attend a focus group meeting in order to talk to them about their experience. In all, we spoke to 480 unemployed people at the two Intreo centres. We ran six focus group meetings of unemployed people, including a national focus group meeting of unemployed individual members of the National Organisation of the Unemployed. Fifty-six people participated in the groups and we also carried out 66 telephone interviews.

The focus groups set out to explore people's experience of signing on after losing their job. Most people we met were short term or recently unemployed and would have been in employment, in some cases, for many years. It was, therefore, a significant shock for them to lose their jobs. People did not necessarily know what to do and what they needed to know about making a claim. We decided to capture people's experience of signing on. We also sought to capture information on the contact with the Intreo service in terms of accessing those payments; the group engagement sessions; meeting with case officers - which is vital; review and subsequent meetings and engagements; accessing education and training courses; and ultimately finding employment.

I will refer to some of the key recommendations. Most of the people we met had, thankfully, been in work for very many years and in some cases were significantly still in shock when we met them, due to the experience of losing their jobs. At a point in time when people are pretty vulnerable and are concerned for their future, it is important that a service is available to them to help them in finding out what are their entitlements and to know what type of service they might be able to access.

The key recommendations include that continual training and development and what constitutes a quality service for unemployed people should be a priority for the Intreo service. We had a sense that staff who have good people and interpersonal skills should be allocated to what we call front-line roles in Intreo offices, where they would meet and deal with unemployed people face-to-face. The use of text messaging and e-mail as a means of communication has been highlighted as being useful.

It is very important that communication by the Intreo service should be in a clear and as positive a manner as possible and also that the group engagement invitation letters should promote the positive benefits of engaging with people in the Intreo process. We got a sense that the way the Department communicates with unemployed people in the context of Intreo was that in some way the Department was not selling the service to people. I think it was more that they were, in some respects, threatening people with the service in the way some of those letters were worded. We are pleased to note that there have been some positive changes in that regard.

With regard to the group engagement session, in general, the people we spoke to had a sense that the group engagement sessions were probably overall not that useful and did not work particularly well for many of the people we met. We recommend that additional information should be sent in advance of the meeting, for example, that the presentation should be sent in advance to the unemployed people who have been invited to attend. In terms of the profile of participants at the group engagement session, it would be useful if those invited had broadly similar profiles.

It is important that the structure of the group engagement session be considered. There should be an introduction, people should be taken through the process, and the Intreo service should be explained. The purpose of the group engagement session should be explained and the next steps should be outlined. It is important that the content be conveyed in a clear and easy-to-understand manner.

The group engagement sessions need to comprise a real engagement opportunity. We propose that there be a 30-minute session followed by an optional 30 minutes for those who would like to discuss aspects of the presentation further. It is important that those presenting the sessions highlight upcoming events, such as roadshows, job fairs and career zoos, and give the relevant information to clients at the group engagement sessions. We felt a number of people were invited to the group engagement sessions who probably should not have been there. I refer, for example, to people on the back-to-education allowance. They were invited although it was known they were returning to their education programme later in the year.

With regard to meeting case officers, the group engagement sessions were certainly useful in terms of setting up a meeting. The case officer role is critical. Our research shows unemployed people generally felt particularly positive about their experience of meeting a case officer on a one-to-one basis. They felt there was adequate time allocated for the meetings and welcomed the fact that there was a relatively quick appointment following on from the group engagement sessions.

Let me outline some of our recommendations. Case officers should work with people until they find suitable and sustainable work. They should contact unemployed people proactively to inform them of relevant upcoming events and work, training and education opportunities. There should be an option of a second meeting to agree or finalise a progression plan. The officers should utilise the expertise that exists externally, including in the adult education guidance service and NALA. In the event of a breakdown in the relationship between the case officer and unemployed individual, there should be an option to transfer the latter to another officer. One should prioritise continuous training and development for case officers.

On the progression outcomes and key recommendations, I must hammer home the point that the service should work with people until they find a job. Links to employers should be prioritised. It is important that Intreo do so and that proper job-matching arrangements be put in place. With regard to the ultimate aim of our project, we are anxious to map the journey of the longer-term unemployed and work through two different Intreo offices. We thank the departmental officials and regional and local managers for their support and assistance in facilitating this work.  I thank all the unemployed people who participated in the project and also the joint committee for its interest in this work.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Stewart. I understand Mr. McKeon is making the presentation for the Department of Social Protection.

Mr. John McKeon:

That is correct. We circulated an opening statement prior to the meeting and, in the interest of time, I will not read through it slavishly. I am joined by Mr. Barry Kennedy, who looks after activation operations for the Department, and Mr. Donal Spellman, who runs our eastern region, which includes counties Wicklow and Carlow. They can answer specific questions, if necessary.

I will start with a quick labour market update because it has been of interest to the committee on other occasions on which I have been in attendance. Members are aware that the employment rate has increased. It has risen by approximately 4.5%, or nearly 5%, since the trough in 2012. The overall figure stands, with seasonal adjustment, at approximately 1.9 million, representing an uplift of close to 80,000.

We were asked before about insecure employment. If measured in terms of the share of workers on temporary contracts, one notes the rate grew during the recession from approximately 9.5% to 10.5%. However, it has fallen back to the pre-recession level and remains below the EU average, which is approximately 13.5%.

As a proportion of the overall employment rate, the percentage of part-time employment, representing another form of insecure employment, rose quite significantly during the recession, from approximately 17% to approximately 24%, but it has actually fallen since because most of the employment growth has been in full-time jobs. The share is now back to under 23%, which is broadly similar to the European average. Overall, the unemployment rate rose from 5% to over 15%, but it has now fallen back to approximately 10.6%, according to the latest CSO estimate. The number of unemployed people has fallen from over 327,000 to just about 230,000 in November 2014.

We have been asked before about regional variation. Regional variation in unemployment is relatively low by European standards. In fact, Denmark is the only country with a lower level. That does not mean there is not any. The highest unemployment rate, in the midlands, is over 14%. The lowest, in Dublin, is 10.2%. Around the country there is a variation of 4%, but it can be far wider in other European countries.

Youth unemployment has decreased quite significantly, from over 30% in 2012 to approximately 23%, according to the last QHS report. The youth unemployment rate is high, at about twice the overall rate. Generally, the youth unemployment rate tends to be twice the overall rate, even during boom periods, because of lower participation rates among young people. Therefore, the rate is what one would expect given the overall rate of unemployment. In absolute terms, the number of young people unemployed is estimated at 48,000, by comparison with 83,000 at the peak. Therefore, there has been a very significant reduction. Long-term unemployment has fallen sharply by comparison with the very sharp increase during the recession. There was an increase from 31,000 to over 200,000 but the figure is now down to 139,000. The total long-term rate has fallen from 9.5% to 6.4%. That is the good news but there is still bad news and there are challenges.

A particular challenge concerns the very long-term unemployed. Our submission contains a graph showing the share of long-term unemployment accounted for by people who are unemployed for three years or more. They number approximately 100,000, which figure is relatively stagnant. Therefore, the unemployment rate is falling among those who have been unemployed for shorter periods but not among those who have been unemployed for longer periods. Males comprise a disproportionate share. Some 72% of very long-term unemployed people are male. Age is a consideration in this group. Middle-aged and older age cohorts are disproportionately represented in respect of all durations of unemployment. Figures show that the over-35s share of long-term unemployment has increased from 40% to over 80%. That is particularly noteworthy and means that a case worker in the Department is much more likely to be sitting opposite a male who is over 35 than a young person under 25. The challenge in reducing long-term unemployment is finding jobs for males over 35. We should not forget that.

I will not elaborate on Pathways to Work. We have discussed it fairly recently so I will skip it.

On the INOU survey, the Department has a very long and co-operative relationship with the INOU and was pleased to facilitate the survey. Although it is a small survey, we believe it comprises valuable input. It contains real stories from real people and real offices. Overall, it gives a positive assessment of the client's journey. It does outline some negative experiences, however, and we must acknowledge that. In acknowledging it, we must bear in mind the sheer scale of the Department's operations. For example, the approximately 6,500 staff in the Department process 2 million claims every year and answer over 8 million telephone calls. They make over 85 million payments to over 1.4 million people. The proportion of complaints and bad experiences is tiny relative to the scale of the operation.

Approximately 3,000 staff in our Intreo offices focus on jobseekers. Last year, they processed over 500,000 claims. They hosted over 186,000 people at group engagement sessions and conducted over 330,000 one-to-one case-officer–client interviews. With the exception of new claims, there was a considerable increase in the activity level in this regard. For example, the number of group engagement interactions increased by over 50% last year by comparison with the previous year. It is important to note that all the performance improvements happened during a period of great change. There were considerable changes to staff working conditions. Not only were there public-service-wide reductions in pay but all our staff had to move into new roles, learn new skills and take on new duties. Major building works were taking place around them while they worked, and there were men with Kango hammers in the offices. It is fair to say the staff responded magnificently to the challenge.

Given that background, it is not surprising that there might have been instances when the delivery of service to customers was less than perfect.

However, we need to put it in that context. Given the level of change taking place, it is not unexpected that staff will take time to get used to their new roles. That is the issue.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We will now take questions from members. In view of the fact that we need to vacate the room at a particular time, I ask members to restrict their contributions to two minutes.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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That is fair enough. I thank Mr. McKeon for his presentation and I thank the INOU for the survey - albeit based on a small sample - which it carried out. Reference was made to the growth in employment, which I welcome, but there has not been a commensurate growth in the totality of the amount paid out in wages. Despite the fact that there has been a 5% reduction in unemployment, there has only been a tiny fraction of an increase in wages. Are our guests in a position to explain the reason for this? Is it because some of those who have come off the live register are now employed in jobs that are quite low paid, or whatever?

It was stated that the number of complaints is tiny when compared to the overall picture. However, the survey was quite small in nature. I have received quite a few complaints and they all seem to centre on one thing, namely, attempts to fit square pegs into round holes. I refer here to people being referred for either jobs or courses which are totally inappropriate to their skill sets. If they do not take up such jobs or courses, they are under threat of being penalised. In the past hour I received another complaint by text. Another matter which has come to my attention is that certain case officers seem to be programmed in such a way that they are discouraging people from pursuing opportunities for further education. They appear to be of the view that if there is a menial job available, then a person should not waste the State's time by returning to education. I am not saying that all case officers have adopted this attitude but there is no doubt that a number have certainly have done so.

I note the intention to increase the number of places available on JobsPlus. How many additional places will be allocated this year, and has the money necessary to facilitate this been provided? Will our guests also provide an update on the position with regard to the youth guarantee scheme? There is a very interesting proposal to issue performance statistics for each Intreo office. When will such statistics be issued? I am of the view that this would be a very useful exercise.

On the recommendations from the INOU, I am particularly interested in those which involve matching people to appropriate courses or job opportunities. The restructuring of the group engagement mechanism is important, as is the idea that case officers should become involved in networking among themselves. The latter could be done by holding regular meetings, perhaps once a month.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank our guests for their presentations. Like the previous speaker, I am aware of people who encountered difficulties when they have presented at Intreo offices. However, the majority of those to whom I have spoken are of the view that the service is very good and that it helped point them in the right direction. I am aware of three people who were obliged to change case officers. Is there a particular reason why individuals may have to change case officers? Does it just come down to a clash of personalities? In general, I must say "Well done," because I am of the view that the service is operating well. A great deal of work remains to be done on the ground but the new offices are making an impact. The majority of people I meet indicate that it is a very interesting experience, particularly as they believe they have been listened to. The latter is very important when one is unemployed.

The number of older people who are unemployed stands at 72%. I know many individuals who were self-employed but who, unfortunately, were obliged to close down their operations. As a result, these people have been left without any form of income at all. I know many others who are in their late 50s or early 60s, who were involved in construction and who lost their jobs. There is nothing out there for these people. All of the skills they obtained during their working lives are being lost. It has been stated that because we are going to begin building houses again, there will be a need to bring back people who emigrated to facilitate this. There are many people who never left and who have the necessary skills in this regard. However, these individuals are being left in long-term unemployment. I speak to many of them and the lack of self-esteem among them is dreadful. It just drags them down on a daily basis. Those to whom I refer are construction workers, electricians, plumbers and carpenters and they are being informed that they should do computer courses. These men have worked with their hands all their lives and it is very difficult for them when they are advised in this way.

Will our guests outline what the mapping process involves? Will they indicate why - this was the case even when there was full employment here - so many young people do not take up job opportunities? I am aware of one or two individuals who would not take up the jobs they were offered because those jobs were in fast food outlets. They preferred to stay on the dole.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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In the context of mapping the journey for people who are short-term unemployed, the whole problem - if one actually exists - seems to come down to communication. It never ceases to amaze me that we cannot get matters right in that regard, particularly in view of the fact that communications courses are on offer at many colleges. Will our guests indicate what aspects it was necessary to change most urgently? Was the collaboration between Intreo offices and the ETBs ineffective? It was stated that more must be done in this regard. As Deputies O'Dea and Catherine Byrne stated, it is necessary to obtain the right fit. Why can people not return to education? I reiterate what I have stated on many occasions with regard to the development of apprenticeships. There are people who learned skills when they were employed, and these are not being used at present. There are 28 types of apprenticeship on offer in Ireland, whereas in Germany the number is 328. The ETBs have a major role to play in the development of apprenticeships. When Mr. McKeon refers to 48,000 young people who are unemployed, to whom is he referring?

Mr. John McKeon:

Those who are under 25.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Are these individuals who are not in third level education?

Mr. John McKeon:

That is right.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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I congratulate the INOU on the very important work it has done. If I were employed within the Department of Social Protection, I would be examining it closely and trying to use it in some way. The sample used was quite small and I suppose Intreo is relatively new. Does the INOU intend to carry out further work in this area or will the survey stand alone? I congratulate Mr. Stewart on his submission because he presented it in the form of suggestions rather than focusing on the negatives that emerged on foot of the INOU's work. That aspect is to be admired. He stated that staff who have good people or interpersonal skills should be allocated to front-line roles. This suggests that feedback may have indicated that some of those who are dealing with the public may not possess the necessary interpersonal skills. Will the representatives from the Department indicate the degree to which the performance of staff is monitored? If people complain about particular case officers, what action can the Department take? Has it already taken such action in the interests of addressing any shortcomings which might exist?

Mr. John Stewart:

I will deal first with Deputy Ryan's question on staff with good interpersonal skills being appointed to front-line roles. We gained a sense that Intreo office managers are aware of this matter. The members of staff of any organisation will possess a range of skills and abilities. It is often the case that an unemployed person attending at an Intreo office will be anxious, apprehensive and concerned about his or her entitlement to a payment, the period he or she will be unemployed, etc.

It is important that when people seek to access the service, the person they meet has the necessary skills to deal with them effectively. He or she should be able to demonstrate empathy with people's situations and should be able to communicate clearly what the person needs to know and do and what his or her options are. Some of the feedback we have got from unemployed people we have met is that this has not been the case in every situation. There were some examples in which, unfortunately, officials did not demonstrate the level of interpersonal skills required. It was also recognised within the report and by the people who applied for assistance that the staff in these organisations are under significant pressure and dealing with significant numbers of people. Nonetheless, this does not excuse circumstances or situations in which people do not receive the type of service they expect to receive. This, essentially, is what the particular recommendation sought to address.

In regard to the call for more effective collaboration, the ETBs were just being formulated at the time we were doing the research, from April 2013 to April 2014. In a way, this was a call to ensure that when the new ETBs were up and running there would be collaboration between the Intreo service, the ETBs and other providers to ensure that opportunities for people to participate in education training programmes are maximised.

On the point made by Deputy O'Dea in regard to square pegs and round holes, this is a critical point. As we have seen from research we have done, it is vital that work be done to ensure that when somebody is referred to an educational training programme or to a job, there is a fit between the person and the programme, the course or the job. This is critical, particularly in the context of employer engagement. Without that fit, we could quite quickly undermine the service through not ensuring the key element of job matching. The Deputy made a good and relevant point on that.

Mr. John McKeon:

I will try to deal with the questions in order. Deputy O'Dea raised the issue of pay. First, the increase in employment is 4.5%. The number is 80,000, which is 4.5%. I do not have the figures for the national accounts on what the total increase in salaries is. That is something that the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation looks after. I would not expect a huge increase in pay as a consequence, particularly when most jobs created are at entry level. Jobs might have been lost at one level, but as the economy recovers new jobs will typically be at entry level. I am aware that the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, as part of the jobs action plan, is establishing a low pay commission. I understand this is in the process of being established. Obviously the Government is looking at this and it is a question of policy in terms of how the Government responds on this.

In regard to square pegs in round holes, an important point that sometimes gets lost in discussion is that when job seekers come to the Department they have a range of competencies and abilities that would be suitable for certain types of jobs. However, they may have aspirations to a different type of job. Our first objective is to get them back into work. All of the evidence shows that getting somebody back into work is the best option for their long-term interests. In a situation where somebody says they are unemployed but would like to shift career, we make no apology for telling them there are currently jobs available that they could apply for and asking them to apply for them. This sometimes causes friction. We would not be looking to put a square peg in a round hole, but we are saying: "You are a square peg; there is a square hole." To make a crude analogy, we suggest that if the person wants to turn into a diamond-shaped peg, that is grand and we will work with them, but we will ask them to try the square hole first. I believe it is important that we say this.

In regard to JobsPlus, the budget provision for this year has been increased to 6,000 jobs from the previous 3,000, and there is provision to review that during the year. If the take-up exceeds the provision, we will consider whether it is appropriate to revise the cap. I do not have the figures on the youth guarantee with me, so I ask forgiveness if I am wrong, but I am fairly sure what I am about to say is accurate. In 2014, approximately 20,500 young people have availed of places which are part of the youth guarantee approach. At the end of the year, we announced and will formally start a hard drive on the developmental internship, which will be called First Steps, and on the enhanced version of JobsPlus for young people. Therefore, these numbers will increase in 2015. We are working on compiling performance statistics currently and will run them for approximately six months in the Department to check their reliability and the variability from month to month. We will probably start to publish them in the second half of the year.

A question was asked about restructuring group engagement. Although it was a small survey, the evidence from the INOU report is that the majority of people were happy with their case officer interactions, but perhaps less happy with the group engagement, probably because they had unrealistic expectations of the group engagement. This is primarily an information session, to tell clients they will be moving to a one-to-one engagement process with a case officer, what they can expect to happen and that we will produce a personal progression plan. We are now changing the letter that is sent to clients informing them of this, so that they are aware when they attend what they are coming to. We are changing it from a "group engagement" to a "group information session", which will hopefully address the issue.

On the selection of staff, I will ask Mr. Spellman to talk about that because he runs a region with a lot of staff involved. By and large, we do our best to assign staff to appropriate roles.

Mr. Donal Spellman:

In the offices in our own region, before we adopt the Intreo approach, we have pre-meetings with all the staff, because Intreo involves a totally new way of delivering all the services. In my experience, the people we put on the integrated reception - the first and most important point of contact for new clients - are people who select themselves because they have the communication skills. They put themselves forward for the role. In my experience, we always try to put those people front of house, because integrated reception is the first point of contact and people can then be directed to the most appropriate place. We put a lot of effort into this area. We will take the recommendations of the report on board. We constantly train staff locally and monitor this training. The Intreo centre manager constantly monitors training and we are extremely conscious of the need for that.

Mr. John McKeon:

There were a few other points.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We are about to wrap up, so please be quick.

Mr. John McKeon:

To follow up on what Mr. Spellman said, we have also developed a new curriculum of training for all of our staff for all roles. This is a modular curriculum in which all staff involved in the role must participate if they are to stay in the role or move into it. This training includes client interaction and communications. I accept the point made by the Senator that we all go on communication skills courses, but sometimes we fail in a difficult situation.

On the question of people with a construction sector background and the live register, if we look at a narrow definition of this sector - painters, plasterers, plumbers - there are approximately just over 30,000 people on the register with that background. We in the Department are anxious that as the construction industry expands, these people will be the first to get the jobs. We are working hard at building up our ability to work with employers, to try to place candidates from the live register in employment opportunities as they arise. We have been working closely with the Construction Industry Federation in that regard also.

This is where schemes such as JobsPlus can be very useful. There are currently over 4,000 people on the JobsPlus scheme. Over 60%, about 61% or 62%, of those people were previously two years unemployed. About two thirds of people who are long-term unemployed and moving into employment would be one to two years unemployed and one third would be more than two years unemployed. JobsPlus is successfully turning this on its head. We will be very aggressive in using these schemes to try to ensure employers take the very long-term unemployed into employment. There is a social clause in all Government contracts, particularly in construction sector contracts, requiring construction firms with State contracts to take at least 10% of their employees from the long-term unemployed, by referral from the Department of Social Protection. This is a foot in the door for us. We can then have a proper conversation and we are very conscious of this.

The question on why young people would not work even in the good years is a question that is perhaps as old as time itself. One can look at education, family circumstances, background and so on. This is one of the reasons, in some of the Youth Guarantee initiatives, we have focused on things which will help young people who even in the good years would not have got employment. We have things such as the youth developmental internship, as we are calling it, or First Steps, in which we hope to get employers to sponsor 1,500 jobs for people who normally would not get passed the screening process and, to put it crudely, normally would not be allowed past the reception desk. We are working with employers to get them to sponsor job opportunities for young people who are particularly distant from the labour market. We have also made changes to community employment schemes and so forth in order to encourage young people to take part.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I am conscious of the time. We have to vacate the committee room. We will invite the delegates in again.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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I did not get an answer to my question about monitoring of staff, recurring names and how people clearly not suited to certain situations are managed.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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Is there any other question outstanding? We have to conclude the session.

Mr. John McKeon:

In terms of staff who clearly are not suitable to their role, in the first instance what we do - Mr. Spellman alluded to this - is look to move them into a role for which they are suited. If people are not competent to do the job, they will undergo a training programme or we will move them into a job in which they will be competent. If it is not a competency issue, but a performance issue - the person is performing in a way that is unacceptable - there are procedures within the Department on looking into those matters and taking appropriate action. We would have to talk to the individual, but I would emphasise that overwhelmingly, including in this research, the feedback on staff members is generally very positive. They have worked in extraordinarily difficult circumstances and people know this. Staff in the Department of Social Protection offices sometimes have to deal with customers who are under extreme stress themselves. There can be issues and it is important to get to the bottom of the issue. Is it an issue with the staff member or is it an issue purely around communications? If there is a recurring problem which points to a performance issue, there are procedures which we will invoke for dealing with staff.

Brendan Ryan (Dublin North, Labour)
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Is there a complaints procedure?

Mr. John McKeon:

Yes. There is a public complaints procedure online and at local offices. We record all the complaints and action them and we produce formal files with outcomes and so on.

Mr. John Stewart:

On the next steps for the INOU, it is our intention to research people who are long-term unemployed and their experience of Intreo. We are currently talking to the Department about this. When that work is done, if it would be of interest to the committee, we would be delighted to come back to speak on it.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We definitely will do that. I wish to thank the delegates and commend them. They are critical but constructively so and they work with the Department to get things changed. This is very much to be admired and welcomed. I thank everyone for attending.