Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I welcome Mr. Steven Daly and Mr. John Fitzsimons from Camara Ireland. Senator Moran requested that they be invited before the committee to hear about their work, and we welcome that because we are very interested in what Camara is doing. Although a vote is taking place in the Dáil, we have decided to proceed with the meeting because a number of Senators are interested in the topic.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. The opening statement submitted to the joint committee will be published on the committee's website after this meeting.

I invite Mr. Daly to make his opening presentation on the work of Camara in regard to information technology in schools.

Mr. Steven Daly:

I am grateful for the opportunity to address the joint committee on the work of Camara. I am accompanied by Mr. John Fitzsimons, CEO of Camara, and Ms Maureen O'Donnell, who is the Europe and Caribbean service manager. I look after Camara's Irish programmes. Camara is an international charity and social enterprise which uses technology to improve education and deliver 21st-century learning skills to disadvantaged communities around the world. We work in Africa, the Caribbean and, obviously, Ireland. Those who engage with Camara subscribe to three core beliefs, namely, that poverty in the 21st century is wrong, that education is a key tool for breaking down cycles of poverty and that technology has the power to transform the way education is delivered.

Our vision is for a technology-enabled world-class education system that is accessible to all. In trying to deliver on that vision, we bring a package of information and communications technology, ICT, and education programmes to schools and youth centres around the world. We deliver packages comprising educator training, hardware, support and software to schools, community centres and youth centres in the countries in which we work. As we cannot deliver those packages on our own, we have been lucky over the last ten years to be partnered by a number of brilliant organisations, including Google, Facebook, PwC, ESB and Electric Ireland, to name but a few. Over those ten years we have managed to make a significant global impact. We have reached approximately 900,000 young people, trained more than 16,000 educators and supplied more than 62,000 computers. We have also been delivering a programme in Ireland since 2010. In the five years we have worked in Ireland, we have collaborated with more than 250 organisations, most of which are schools and youth centres, delivered more than 3,500 computers and trained more than 1,100 educators, including both teachers and youth workers.

Through our work on ICT education in Ireland, we have identified huge gaps in the integration of computers and technology into the education system. These gaps are indicated most clearly in statistics that emerged from the 2012 European Schoolnet survey on the state of ICT in education in Ireland. On average, 40% of students in Irish schools use computers less often than once per week, 45% of students attend schools in which support for ICT is classified as weak and 40% of students are taught by teachers with low confidence levels in using ICT. Despite the negative nature of these statistics, it is important to point out they are not due to the lack of a plan. In 2008, the Department of Education and Science released a fantastic five-year plan entitled Investing Effectively in ICT in Schools 2008-2013. The plan identified seven key areas of investment which chime closely with Camara's experience. Over the last ten years we have made many of the mistakes that can be made in integrating ICT into teaching and learning environments. The seven areas identified are key to addressing many of these mistakes. It is clear, therefore, that the issue pertains to implementation rather than planning or analysis. Where we are failing is in the execution of our plans.

It is clear that the top-down approach is not working particularly well. The reasons are myriad, from the country's financial position in recent years to difficulties in managing industrial relations. During that period, it is interesting that there was a significant groundswell in demand from the bottom up of the education system, with education leaders, teachers and principals wanting to integrate ICT effectively into their schools. This has been indicated by the success of the social enterprise model that Camara has been using in Ireland, a success that is mainly due to the fact that it is demand-driven. Rather than being a top-down approach, it is a participatory one in which stakeholders from across the system demand products and services from us. That we are a social enterprise means that we are not looking for a commercial market segment from which we can make money. Instead, we are driven to design a solution or a set of products and services that address an entire aspect of a particular social problem. In addition, the not-for-profit constitution of an organisation such as Camara Education means that the value for money and return on investment that we can offer to schools and youth centres are exponentially higher than those offered by the commercial sector, sometimes as much as ten times so.

I will conclude with a short example of how organisations in the third sector such as Camara Ireland can work with the Government to address the 40% of the system that is lagging behind. If the Department of Education and Skills were to co-fund a third-sector organisation to the tune of approximately €5 million, State IT assets were re-used in education and there were co-operation and joined-up thinking by a number of Departments, the third sector and organisations such as Camara could quickly put in place initiatives under which up to 1,600 of the schools most in need would be dealt with, up to 64,000 computers would be delivered into the education system, 20,000 teachers would be trained and, most importantly, up to 340,000 young people would receive an improved education.

My request is for the committee to work with the Departments of Education and Skills, Social Protection and Children and Youth Affairs and to push them to look towards the third sector and work with organisations such as Camara to address the issue of the final 40% of the system that is lagging behind. Without the committee's support and drive, there is the potential for the seven areas to remain just as plans instead of being executed. We have a duty to the young people in our education system to execute those plans and bring them to fruition.

I thank the committee for listening and we will be delighted to take members' questions.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Daly.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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That was a good, explanatory and readable presentation. I enjoyed it.

Mr. Steven Daly:

I thank the Senator.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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Mr. Daly should be honoured. Senator O'Donnell does not give compliments freely.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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No, but it was very good. Mr. Daly obviously knows his area well, what he has done and what he needs, but I am not sure about his reasons. He stated that there were three "statics" - I do not understand that word - of particular note in the report. First, 40% of students are not using a computer in class even once a week. Second, 45% of students are in schools with weak support for ICT use. Did he mean without support?

Mr. Steven Daly:

The support for ICT in the schools would be classified as weak by the report.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I understand. Third, 40% of students are being taught by teachers with low confidence levels in using ICT. I will put a spanner in the works. Where does what Mr. Daly has stated stand as regards our greatest weaknesses in school, namely, numeracy and literacy? This paper gives me the impression that ICT is some kind of saviour. I live in the real world, where the main requirements in school for three year olds to 15 year olds are numeracy and literacy. Will Mr. Daly outline three or four lessons that ICT teaches that books and human beings cannot? It is not a race against that, but there are enormous generalisations.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I might let someone else ask a question. Mr. Daly should hold his answer.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for attending. One of my reasons for inviting them was how impressed I was when I visited their base and saw the excellent work Camara Education was doing in ensuring ICT education, not just elsewhere in the world, but in Ireland.

I will address the three "statics" to which Senator O'Donnell referred. The survey dates from 2012. When I left my school in 2011, I did not have access to the Internet or a computer in my classroom. Actually, I had a computer, but it did not work. The picture in 2015 is different. Judging by the schools I visit, there seems to have been a major upsurge in the past three years. Do the witnesses have an update on the figures? We have moved on since 2012.

Will Mr. Daly expand on the issue of teacher training? How do schools become aware of Camara? Has it visited every school in Ireland?

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Daly and Mr. Fitzsimons for their presentation. Mr. Daly referred to a number of outputs Camara could achieve if it received co-funding - for example, the distribution of 64,000 computers and re-using computers that Departments no longer use. Is that a set figure? Has Camara discussed it with anyone or does it come from experience?

I agree that the main issues in education are literacy and numeracy. Going by my experience, while I am not opposed to ICT, as it has a role to play in education, it has provided the most benefit in the field of special needs education, particularly for children who suffer from dyslexia and dyscalculia. Students are using many apps and programmes such as Reading Eggs at home. These are being joined up with what is being done in class. Reading Eggs is an online database. One logs in and does the work at home, with the teacher monitoring it from the classroom. Vice versa, what is being done in the classroom can be monitored by parents at home through an online platform. Initiatives like this that target literacy and numeracy have considerable potential.

Mr. Daly referred to delivering a programme. Did he mean in a general sense, or will Camara focus on literacy and numeracy? How will it impact on these important issues?

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I thank the gentlemen for attending. I am delighted to say that a number of my former students have passed through their organisation on work experience. I commend Camara on its work. As the head of a large computer department, one of my problems every year was how to dispose of machines that were beyond their sell-by dates, so to speak, but still perfectly serviceable. Many times, I tried to pass them on to national and secondary schools.

Until Camara Ireland came along there was nowhere to get rid of them. We ended up dumping perfectly serviceable machines purely because they could not run the software we wished to run, particularly in the multimedia area.

What the organisation is doing is great. I would support greater roll-out in Ireland and more of the assets used in Ireland. The State has already paid for those assets. While it is commendable to send them to Africa and various other parts of the world, there should be greater take-up in this country. For that reason and considering the job Camara Ireland does, I would support some funding going to it. However, it should be a double edged sword whereby we fund the organisation's capacity to recycle machines but the organisation should in turn take on students who are undertaking ICT maintenance programmes and, perhaps, programmers and people working in the area of operating systems and networking, to develop a service to schools which otherwise could not afford it. I realise the competition people will jump in straight away and ask about the private sector, but it is more important that we have computers in classrooms available to students for the schools that cannot afford them. Would the witness be interested in some type of partnership whereby the organisation would get some funding but, in return, it would train people?

With regard to literacy and numeracy, there are many applications to assist students with literacy and numeracy and many online free e-learning platforms that can be used. Again, I would like Camara Ireland to develop some expertise in that area and to provide support to schools which otherwise could not afford it. I agree with Deputy O'Brien on the matter of special needs. Computers have taken children with special needs leaps and bounds ahead of where they were.

I commend what the organisation is doing and I would support us trying to work towards a partnership between Camara Ireland and, perhaps, the education and training boards. That might be the way to proceed. I would welcome comments from the witnesses on that.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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One of the biggest issues facing schools, even if they get the computers and the training, is the ongoing cost of maintenance and licensing. Do the witnesses have any ideas on that? As I am sure they are aware, many schools are facing budget deficits, not to mind being able to provide extra budgets for the maintenance of computers and the purchase of licences. Do the witness have any ideas on how to overcome that?

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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We must be careful, when talking about computers and IT not being available in schools, about saying that the school or the children are therefore weak. There are many thousands of ways whereby young people can be assessed. For me, numeracy and literacy are fundamental to that. Of course, the witnesses are correct, as is everything they are doing. I agree with Senator Craughwell that an amalgamation with the education and training boards would be huge. However, one must be careful in talking about weaknesses as a result of there being no computers in schools. There are huge weaknesses in respect of reading, writing and arithmetic, which are the fundamentals of even learning how to control a computer as opposed to having it control the person.

Marie Moloney (Labour)
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I will be brief as, unfortunately, I must leave for a debate in the Seanad. On the issue of computers, I come from a rural area where there is a small rural school. It barely has enough room for the students in the classrooms. In one school, the resource teaching takes place in the hallway because there is no room. When it comes to having enough computers to cater for all of the students and to have time to go on the computers, in practical terms the room, space and time are not available.

With regard to literacy, since the introduction of smart phones and other devices I have noticed that young people's spelling has become atrocious. It is lazy. There is also predictive text. One sees "4" instead of "for" and "u" instead of "you". That impacts on them with regard to the written word because with computers one can do a spell check and so forth. Will that aspect make a person lazy in their written English?

Mr. Steven Daly:

I thank the members for their questions. Both of us have a good deal to say on a number of them, so I will reply to them in order.

Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I am sorry to interrupt, but some of us might have to leave the meeting. I hope the witnesses will forgive us if that happens. It is not that we wish to do it, but there are several things happening here at the same time.

Mr. Steven Daly:

Our e-mail addresses are in the presentation so if any member wishes to contact us afterwards, we will be delighted to respond.

I will respond first on the point about literacy and numeracy and the use of ICT. I agree that ICT is not a silver bullet. It never will be. The delivery of a nice shiny set of laptops or desktops to a classroom will never solve any problems. We have learned that and we are strong advocates of that opinion. It is important to acknowledge that from the start. However, ICT is a very effective tool that facilitates many extra programmes and more innovative and different methods of learning that otherwise would not be possible or as easily possible without that tool. Again, it is a useless tool unless it is in the right hands, just as a blackboard is a useless tool if it is not in the right or correctly trained hands. That is the reason the software, content, training, support and infrastructure around it are even more important than the tools themselves. We have learned that lesson over the last ten years and that is the reason the Camara Ireland programme has developed the way it has, to include the supports, training, software and content to address those issues.

Mr. John Fitzsimons:

On literacy and numeracy, I have global responsibility for Camara. Yesterday, I was in London to meet with three other commercial partners and together we are delivering a £25 million project to 200 schools in Kenya. One of the partners is a dedicated literacy and numeracy software provider. They did a demonstration yesterday which was very enlightening for me. It really highlighted the point that the traditional educational system is a one-size-fits-all system. Typically, there is a teacher who delivers to 30 children. There is no adaptiveness to that, so they can probably go at the speed of the slowest cohort of students in the classroom. The children at the front or top cannot progress any faster, so it is one-size-fits-all.

However, with this software, and the software is just an example of the software that is available, it was one-to-one personalised tuition. The technology would understand the areas of numeracy in which the child was slow, where the child was fast and it would adapt the content to that child to address the weak areas. Not only that, it could track the progress of the child. We were shown the dashboard. There was a list of students and at the start they were at various levels of competence. With this adaptive technology one could see the progression over a period of months and years. That is just an example of how-----

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Can we use that here?

Mr. John Fitzsimons:

Absolutely.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Is it being introduced here?

Mr. John Fitzsimons:

These are the types of options that are available in software. Obviously this is not possible without technology and it is not possible without training the teachers to use the technology. It is not possible without the buy-in of the school in total, but these things are possible when the technology is in the school.

Five years ago Camara used to talk about computers and training, we now talk about educational outcomes. In Kenya, for example, we are supporting the Ministry of Education, Science and Technology, which badly needs to improve literacy and numeracy. This programme is addressing that need. We are the facilitators in this, not the teachers. It is up to the teachers to say, "We are trying to improve literacy, spelling or whatever in our school, so how can you help us?" We will suggest the software, technology, training and support that might be right for them. In Camara we do not do projects; we do sustainable operations. In Kenya, like in Ireland, we have set up an entity. That funds itself, and 50% is from the revenues we get. We must source funding to co-fund it. We are not going away from any country in which we are established. We will be there for the schools and for new schools as well.

Mr. Steven Daly:

That probably leads on quite well to Senator Moran's question on expanding on the teacher training. One of the seven recommendations mentioned earlier was to ensure that teachers have the capabilities to make meaningful use of information and communications technology, ICT, in a classroom. That recommendation was expanded upon to build a learning framework - essentially a training framework - for teachers to be able to do a certain amount of pretesting to figure out where they were on the framework and then to figure out what kind of training courses they needed to gain the confidence to be able to use the tools about which Mr. John Fitzsimons was talking. While this has not really happened yet in Ireland, Camara Ireland is in the process of trying actively to develop a teacher training framework whereby we do not have a set course one does, but we have a number of courses and partnerships with a number of organisations such as CoderDojo, which Deputy Cannon knows so well or Bridge21, of which some members might have heard, and a myriad of other third sector organisations that we can bring together to collaborate on delivering a selection of training courses to teachers, as they identify the need to have that level of confidence and skills to be able to use the tools about which Mr. John Fitzsimons was talking.

The key point to realise is it is not a matter of training someone as to how to use a particular tool. There is no particular piece of software in which one can train an educator, a youth worker or a teacher that is the piece of software. What that teacher or educator needs are the skills to be able to find one of the hundreds of pieces of available software that are free or paid for, to figure out whether they are any good and if they suit the needs of their students - be they special-needs students or in mainstream education - and to figure out whether that piece of software is applicable, then to figure out how to use it and then to feel sufficiently confident to actually use it in the classroom. That is the point at which we are aiming here. We are not talking about simply giving people a set of skills whereby one ticks the box and says that is grand as every teacher now knows how to use X, Y and Z. That is not the solution we need. What we need, just like we need for our young people, is for people to have skills to teach themselves, to learn for themselves, to be able to figure out what is good and bad and then to figure out how to use it and deliver it in the appropriate context. That is the key differential.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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This is what the proposed junior cycle reform is trying to do.

Mr. Steven Daly:

Exactly and that is exactly what the junior cycle reform is trying to do.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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May I ask a question?

Mary Moran (Labour)
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I also need to ask one supplementary question.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I will bring in Deputy Cannon first.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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First, I welcome Mr. John Fitzsimons and Mr. Steven Daly to Leinster House. I had the privilege of visiting Camara Ireland almost two years ago at its Chapelizod site. I am a huge fan of social entrepreneurship and these guys epitomise the very best of that sector. They are using resources that at times simply would be discarded and not used to anybody's great advantage. They are employing people and certainly are empowering young people both in Ireland and across much of the world to avail of a whole new learning opportunity of which they may not have been able to avail in the past. They also are tapping into and nurturing to an extent a wonderful learning revolution that is under way both here in Ireland and globally. I would argue that Irish schools are at present more than capable not alone of playing a part in that revolution but in leading it. We have an organisation in Ireland that has been in existence for more than 40 years called the Computers in Education Society of Ireland, CESI. It is comprised of teachers who are experts in the use of technology in education, expert in digital learning and expert in sharing resources among themselves. That society is attempting, as are other organisations such as CoderDojo, the Excited Digital Learning Movement, Camara Ireland and others working in that sector, to bring together all that expertise, to share the knowledge that has been accumulated by exceptionally talented, committed and trailblazing teachers and to use it to empower others and to eliminate the fear.

Ultimately, Mr. Daly's point is correct, in that much of it is about that first fear of engaging with the new learning opportunity. For example, just last year the Government launched a competition called MATHletes, which uses the Khan Academy platform. It is a free platform that does not cost the school, participant, student or parent anything to use. It is an excellent global philanthropic learning resource and a significantly increased number of young people and teachers now can be seen using that resource here in Irish schools. It is often that first venture or foray into a whole new world of learning and it is often more challenging for the teacher than it is for the young person involved. Young people are now to be seen engaging in the learning process in a completely different way. One can see a tearing down of the walls of the school because, for example, in Khan Academy, again like the system mentioned by Mr. Fitzsimons, each child's performance can be monitored, as can the amount of time spent on a particular subject matter and their attainment level in that subject matter. A lot of exciting things are happening and Camara Ireland is an excellent example of what can be done when one puts together heads that have the expertise, passion and commitment to deliver on what is possible.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I will call on Deputy Jim Daly and then we will go back to Senators O'Donnell and Moran.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I will be brief. I apologise for missing the presentation because I was obliged to go to the Dáil Chamber. I was just saying to Deputy Cannon that I should declare an interest because some of my lads attend CoderDojo and with many thanks to Camara Ireland, have got laptops to do that. Again, I apologise if the witnesses already have addressed this point but the evolution of technology must be their greatest challenge. For example, it was reported on the news this morning that Apple has made profits of $18 billion and as most people now access the Intranet on their telephones, I presume a lot of the technology is becoming obsolete very quickly, even if the witnesses are getting discarded goods and are recycling. I recall my own days in the classroom, when video-conferencing was the new buzzword and at the time, we were at the cutting-edge of it and were doing the pilot projects on it. However, it was discarded quickly because it became obsolete as new technologies emerged. I asked the witnesses to outline briefly their current status in this regard when looking to the future in respect of education.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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For how long has Camara Ireland been in existence?

Mr. John Fitzsimons:

We will be ten in November.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Have the witnesses written anything? They mentioned, apropos of the point made by Deputy Jim Daly, what they have learned in that ten years, how their approach and how they do things have changed. Have they written anything about this or about the organisation's plans for the future or is it just ethereal? That is my question and if so, can members read some of it? Obviously, the approach by Camara Ireland has changed over ten years as technology has changed. Have the witnesses gone back to things, have they found some things worked while others did not and has that fuelled what Camara Ireland does now and how it approaches the future? If they have something written about it, they might forward it to the joint committee.

Mr. John Fitzsimons:

Yes.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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To revert to teacher training, I am sorry to be hounding back on this point, the witnesses should provide the joint committee with their experience as to how and when this training goes on. Does it go on after school or during the school day? What kind of reception or co-operation does the organisation get within each school? Do the witnesses find there are problems within schools when trying to give the training? Finally, the witnesses have set out clearly how they believe members could be of help within the different Departments. I acknowledge I have worked with them in some of these areas.

However, through the Chair, may I ask whether there is scope for the joint committee in this regard or what can it do to support Camara Ireland?

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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We can come back and discuss that. The witnesses might address whether they think there is something we can do as a committee.

Mr. Steven Daly:

It is an interesting question. To address the teacher training question first, we have seen an interesting change over the past five years since we have been working specifically in Ireland on the teacher training side. To explain quickly how it works, the training we deliver normally is delivered either after school or rarely, on Saturdays. However, it often is delivered in conjunction with, for example, a half-day whereby a staff meeting might take up a certain proportion of a half-day and then our trainers will deliver a training session. At other times, the training is timetabled in throughout the day. We might take a small group of teachers, perhaps four or five, and focus on a particular aspect and deliver the training that way. What we have seen, especially in the past year and a half or two years, is a shift where delivering that training has become much more challenging. This is due to the changing industrial relations environment and due to the Croke Park agreement hours with which teachers and school principals are working. The main challenge with this is the Croke Park hours generally must be taken as a lump and consequently, the entire staff must be involved in an activity that is to be put down as the Croke Park hours. A major challenge for us is that we cannot split up those hours, deliver training to, for example, five teachers on a Wednesday afternoon with the effect that those five teachers therefore have completed the Croke Park hours. Instead, we must take the entire staff, which could be 30 or 40 teachers, and deliver a training session, which obviously loses its impact because one is not able to give each individual teacher as much individual attention. In addition, the session is curtailed a little by the hours. Consequently, we have seen the changing situation in the education system over the past few years affecting the training.

To combat that, we have also worked more closely with some of the education centres. For example, we have delivered training in conjunction with Blackrock Education Centre on a pilot basis, which has worked very well. One of the larger challenges we have is that our training is not recognised as official CDP days, something which we are working towards. It is a difficult process.

Mr. John Fitzsimons:

To address the question on whether we have documented our learning, the answer is "Yes". Every year we issue an incredibly detailed and transparent monitoring and evaluation report. I challenge the committee to find another charity which gives such a transparent view. Not all of it is great. We have learned a lot over the past ten years.

Some nine years ago we shipped computers to Ethiopia, put them into schools and hoped the magic would happen, but it did not. We soon learned that one had to train the teachers, so we started sending volunteers from Ireland five or six years ago to do that. It was great, but it was only one month out of 12. We realised that computers break and we needed local support and trainers. We set up entities in each of the countries. To this day, we are focused on working with ministries on education outcomes such as numeracy and literacy. We have completely changed what we do over the past ten years. There is no silver bullet for ICT and education. It is incredibly hard work.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Have papers been written about this?

Mr. John Fitzsimons:

Yes, we have.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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Where can one access them?

Mr. John Fitzsimons:

They are on our website, camara.org. One can find them under the annual reports and monitoring and evaluation and one can read through the progression.

On the question about the profits made by Apple, that is why we operate. Some schools in Ireland can afford to buy iPads for children at €600 a go, but the vast majority cannot. For €50 we can source, refurbish and ship a computer to Africa. I would challenge anyone here to tell me what educational impact would be different for a child who is given a laptop or iPad. It is minimal, if anything at all. We do not need to buy iPads for children in Ireland. This solution has proved to work very successfully.

I am fortunate enough to be a father of two, and my daughter will start school next September. Coincidentally, she will attend the same school as I did. I suspect I will be horrified when I walk into the classroom I was in 35 years ago to see that it is exactly the same as when I left it. There may be an interactive whiteboard, but I suspect technology to change the quality of education will not be present. Technology has changed everything. I respectfully disagree with Senator O'Donnell. If schools do not have technology, they are at a significant disadvantage.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I was not saying that. I was arguing about the level of the silver bullet, as Mr. Fitzsimons's colleagues suggested.

Mr. John Fitzsimons:

I know I will be disappointed because it is absolutely essential. The education system is, quite frankly, out of date compared to the one I went through because we need to provide children with 21st century skills. There is no point testing them on the history of the First World War when one can get the answer from a phone call in two seconds. They need to have access to technology to be able to do that and have the critical thinking to assess it.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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One needs literacy and numeracy to be able to read and argue it.

Mr. John Fitzsimons:

I agree. That is part of 21st century skills.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I have sympathy with both points of view. We visited Finland, which has a good record on education. We went to a school which was very involved in teaching methods, but had no computers. Technology is a tool and can be used very effectively, but there are other methods.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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It is not a panacea. It is not the case that without it we are weak, which was an inference in the presentation. We are weak if we do not have the ability to add, read and write. There is a balance.

Ciarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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If one can significantly enhance the ability of children to read and add using technology, and some children have access to it-----

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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One cannot.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I would not necessarily agree with the Deputy. A lot of other countries would not.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The issue is that it can be of great benefit. There are schools, countries and systems which are very modern. Finland is very modern in some respects, but we were struck that, when we asked people about it, it was a choice they made in that school, which was doing very well. There are two sides to the story. I am very favourable towards technology, but I can see there is another point of view.

I will ask the delegation to wrap up as another group is due to make a presentation. Are there any final comments, in particular on what the committee could do?

Mr. John Fitzsimons:

In response to that, it is very difficult to deliver 21st century skills without using technology. I appreciate that the Finnish example is good and it invests heavily in teachers. To be a teacher in Finland is one of the most honoured professions. It is doing many good things.

If one talks to any employer, especially in Ireland which has a significant track record in bringing in successful multinational companies, one will find there is a requirement for technology skills. That will only increase and proliferate across industries. These skills are needed not just for gaining, but for creating employment. If we want to deliver, as a country, on being the digital economy of Europe and the world, we need to use and integrate technology in our education system or we will be left behind. I have seen plans in other countries in Africa which are so impressive that if they deliver on them it will be great for them and they will rise out of poverty, but we need to be at the table. As Mr. Daly said, we need to deliver on the plans we have, because they are correct. We need to make that happen.

Mr. Steven Daly:

The key thing to note is that we are discussing two sides of technology, the use of it and the ability to use it. That involves two sets of skills. The skills to use technology are key and including subjects such as computer science in the curriculum is also key. That involves different skills, such as the ability to sit down in front of a computer or phone and know what it is and how to use it. There is an additional layer, which is the real power of technology in education, namely, technology as a tool to facilitate the development of 21st century learning skills.

There are two layers of skills. One is the base of literacy, numeracy, writing, arithmetic and maths, which is key and core, something nobody would dispute. There is then an extra layer of skills on top of that which young people going out into the world of work now need. They need communication, collaboration, critical thinking and the ability to work in groups and to solve problems. If we are not giving our young people those skills, we are failing them. Technology is a key tool to facilitate them in developing those skills.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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This has been very informative and we will follow it up. We will have to decide in private session how we might do that with the Department. The delegation is to be commended. Deputy Cannon referred to social enterprise. The delegation is a very good model of that. We will do everything we can to promote that type of activity. We will discuss it further. I thank the delegation on behalf of the committee.

Marie Louise O'Donnell (Independent)
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I would like to recommend a book to Mr. Fiztsimons which he will find very interesting, Technopolyby Neil Postman. He should have a read of it; it is the direct opposite to what he said. He is equally as convincing as the author and what he does is extraordinary.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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It has been a very good debate.

Mr. John Fitzsimons:

I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak. It is great that so many members of the committee have visited our organisation. We would love to bring the committee to Chapelizod to show it what we do and go into things in more detail, and to visit some of the schools in Ireland we have worked with to successfully integrate technology so it can see how it can work and enhance learning.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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The delegation might write to the clerk.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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I would second that. What Camara Ireland does is fantastic.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for being so late. I had to make two phone calls. I have visited Camara Ireland in Chapelizod, as did the President.

Mr. John Fitzsimons:

That is correct.

Catherine Byrne (Dublin South Central, Fine Gael)
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He opened it and it was a wonderful experience. As somebody who is barely able to use an iPhone, it was great to see the dedication of the people. What impressed me most was that people did a lot of work on a voluntary basis and found themselves going back into the workforce through a different channel.

I left school at 14 years of age, and was barely able to read or write. One disadvantage I had when I first came to the House was that I did not have an education like many others here had. It took me a while to clue into what was going on. Legislation is written for lawyers, solicitors and barristers. I found that very difficult, and still do.

The ability to read and write is the most important thing in any child's life. The committee knows the inner city well. Children still leave school without the skills to read and write.

Many of them leave school at a very early age when they should not be leaving. I have a beautiful four year old granddaughter and her pen is an iPad. My phone is her way of reading and writing. I think this is amazing but we need to ensure there is a balance. We still need to teach people to be able to read, to write and to count. Any night on the Luas one can see people reading a book on their Kindle. There has to be a balance. I have come a long way from an inkwell and a dipping pen. I have very nice handwriting but I think I inherited that from my dad.

Mary Moran (Labour)
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I am thinking of people who will never read or write and what they can achieve. It has opened up worlds for people with special needs.

Joanna Tuffy (Dublin Mid West, Labour)
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I thank our guests and I ask members to remain, if possible, because another set of speakers is waiting.